To Attack, or not Attack?

[Zoran]

I had this submitted to http://www.ckfonline.org last year. Just curious about the response here.

Your back is against a bar. You have people on your left and your right. In your face is a very infuriated person who's calling you names and threatening you. He's says, "I'm going to bash your face in". You execute a quick and powerful hand blade to his throat. Your antagonist falls to his knees and is gasping for air. Before you get yourself in any more trouble, you quickly exit the bar, get in your car, and drive away.

In the above scenario, many people would not call this self defense. In my opinion, I call it "self preservation". Most of our techniques deal with a physical attack. In this case you are attacked with the threat of physical harm. Was the person's actions justified? Or, should they have waited for a physical attack? In my opinion, it was justified, and here is why.

There was no route of escape or space to create distance; You need distance to be able to react to an attack. If the antagonist has any training what so ever, they will not telegraph their strike. Face to face is not a good place to be in that situation.
There was a threat of bodily harm; Let's face it, if someone says that they are going to hit you, that is as good as someone throwing a punch. At least in my book. What if someone had said, "I've got a gun in my coat and I'm going to shoot you". How many of us would wait until they reach in their coat and see what he pulls out. I've been in that situation, I sure as heck didn't wait then.
You get home in one peace; Isn't that what our training is about. It is to me.

So, my question to everybody is, when should it be justified to "pull the trigger". Is self defense only to include protecting your self, and your loved ones, from physical harm? Do we have to wait until the physical attack is made, or is a threat enough? What about honor? I know what the law says, I want to know what you say.

[Chiduce]

Originally posted by Zoran

I had this submitted to http://www.ckfonline.org last year. Just curious about the response here.

Your back is against a bar. You have people on your left and your right. In your face is a very infuriated person who's calling you names and threatening you. He's says, "I'm going to bash your face in". You execute a quick and powerful hand blade to his throat. Your antagonist falls to his knees and is gasping for air. Before you get yourself in any more trouble, you quickly exit the bar, get in your car, and drive away.

In the above scenario, many people would not call this self defense. In my opinion, I call it "self preservation". Most of our techniques deal with a physical attack. In this case you are attacked with the threat of physical harm. Was the person's actions justified? Or, should they have waited for a physical attack? In my opinion, it was justified, and here is why.

There was no route of escape or space to create distance; You need distance to be able to react to an attack. If the antagonist has any training what so ever, they will not telegraph their strike. Face to face is not a good place to be in that situation.
There was a threat of bodily harm; Let's face it, if someone says that they are going to hit you, that is as good as someone throwing a punch. At least in my book. What if someone had said, "I've got a gun in my coat and I'm going to shoot you". How many of us would wait until they reach in their coat and see what he pulls out. I've been in that situation, I sure as heck didn't wait then.
You get home in one peace; Isn't that what our training is about. It is to me.

So, my question to everybody is, when should it be justified to "pull the trigger". Is self defense only to include protecting your self, and your loved ones, from physical harm? Do we have to wait until the physical attack is made, or is a threat enough? What about honor? I know what the law says, I want to know what you say. Well you have a good one hear. As far as the threat and the crowd on the left and right, i have been in that situation before. I personally, would wait until the guy fired off the first round. Now, if the crowd was his buddies, i would strike and not with a knife hand chop but a leopard's fist/paw so that they would have to attend to him in a medical way of the 911 call! In my 1st answer; the situation would determine the action taken by myself. Now the threat of harm for me would still depend on what threat was communicated. So, in getting home in one peace. By all means; this is what the training is all about anyway and you have to do what you have to do! Now, again i would like to stand by martial virtue and say what i believe to be the honored thing to do. The Black Belt does not ban one from such places of dishonor and deceit; yet it does instill a sense of personal honor within ones self to distance him/hersef from that particular type of atmosphere. Another, safer more admirable place of business with very well trained security and low police presence would be a smarter choice for the dan ranking. As martial arts instructors, teachers, and practitioners we are held in personal honorable responsiblity by our family, clergy, local society, law enforcement community and community at large. Yes, we are expected to conduct ourselves in the presence of the public with humility, faith and conviction as we interact and communicate our non-violent intent, whether verbally or non-verbally with others. We walk a thin line between right and wrong, there is not much in the middle or existing of gray areas. It should be clear to us that our decisions determine our status as well as the status of our associates, friends and family within the societal structure of our community! You are who you hang out with, where you hang out at, and the things in which you participate! In conclusion, i will say that if you hang around the barber shop long enough, you are bound to get a haircut! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

[Zoran]

Originally posted by Chiduce

Well you have a good one hear. As far as the threat and the crowd on the left and right, i have been in that situation before.

The hypothetical situation shows that you do not have maneuverability. As I stated in #1.


I personally, would wait until the guy fired off the first round.

Why would you do that? You have no idea who this person is in front of you. Are you so confident in your skills that you can avoid being hit or maimed by someone who knows what he is doing. Remeber, this person could have equal if not more training than yourself.


The Black Belt does not ban one from such places of dishonor and deceit; yet it does instill a sense of personal honor within ones self to distance him/hersef from that particular type of atmosphere. Another, safer more admirable place of business with very well trained security and low police presence would be a smarter choice for the dan ranking.

The scenerio is just that, a scenerio. If it helps, you are between to parked cars in a grocery store parking lot with your spouse standing behind you. Or any other scenerio you like.


Yes, we are expected to conduct ourselves in the presence of the public with humility, faith and conviction as we interact and communicate our non-violent intent, whether verbally or non-verbally with others. We walk a thin line between right and wrong, there is not much in the middle or existing of gray areas. It should be clear to us that our decisions determine our status as well as the status of our associates, friends and family within the societal structure of our community! You are who you hang out with, where you hang out at, and the things in which you participate!

You have drifted off topic. The qestion here is "when" you feel that you should take the offensive vs. the defensive. Don't turn this into a moral debate of ethics. If you wish to debate ethics, start another thread on the matter and I will gladly join in the debate.


In conclusion, i will say that if you hang around the barber shop long enough, you are bound to get a haircut! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

Those scissor could be dangerous.:D

[Rob_Broad]

Self Defense is part of self preservation, and sometimes a great defense is a good offense. I think in the situation the action is acceptable. The law allows you to defend yourself against a physical attack or percieved imminent danger.

[GouRonin]

Situations that force you to be offensive or even involve self-defense do not "just happen."

There is a lead up to them and many people ignore the signs or do not act upon them and then find themselves in situations like this.

I know. I've gone looking for them. Now I look to avoid them.

[Zoran]

Originally posted by GouRonin

Situations that force you to be offensive or even involve self-defense do not "just happen."

There is a lead up to them and many people ignore the signs or do not act upon them and then find themselves in situations like this.

I know. I've gone looking for them. Now I look to avoid them.

Good point Gou. I can relate to what you say. My instructor once told me that the most dangerous person in the school is a Green Belt. When I asked why, he said, "They know just enough to get themselves into trouble."

[Chiduce]

Originally posted by Zoran



Those scissor could be dangerous.:D The context in which you may have taken my explanation is not the context i explained it in. The point here is that whether the senerio is hypothetical or real, the answer is the same; exactly as i posted! The non-violent conduct of the martial artist is held in high regard in any senerio! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

[FLY]

The point here is that whether the senerio is hypothetical or real, the answer is the same; exactly as i posted! The non-violent conduct of the martial artist is held in high regard in any senerio! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

This reminds me of a quote in a book that I just finished(Zen in the Martial Arts, by Joe Hyams).

'To win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the highest skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the highest skill'. - SUN-TZU

:asian:

[Zoran]

These higher ideals are fine, in a perfect world. Here is how I feel. If someone gets in my zone (or "F" range:) ) and they threaten me with bodily harm, I will take the offensive. I understand about there usually is a prelude before it gets that far. Sometimes you can do all the right things before, and still be assaulted. Distance is the key factor here. If I have a person threatening me with physical harm from 10 feet away, then you are not in danger. Get in my face and do the same, I will not wait for the first punch. I've seen quite a lot of street fights and been in a few myself due to the job I had. I know what can happen.

For those that feel they would rather wait till they are physically attacked, fine, it's your chioce. I'm in the school of "the best defense is a good offense".
:soapbox:

[Robbo]

I heard a story once, might be true might not, I don't know...

A very proficient martial artist was in a bar in somewhat like the situation described and instead of attacking to defend himself he started to fake a heart attack (he was old enough to do this). This had the effect of defusing the whole situation as he staggered outside to his car wheezing and gasping all the way. Not the greatest exit but nobody got hurt.

Kind of a different take on the situation since if you stirke first with the intent and skill you are probably going to do damage. Basically the guy is going to be defenseless in the face of your attack. I don't think we should take it lying down but I think in those situations (where we strike first) I think we have a unfair advantage.

[Rob_Broad]

Originally posted by Robbo

I heard a story once, might be true might not, I don't know...

A very proficient martial artist was in a bar in somewhat like the situation described and instead of attacking to defend himself he started to fake a heart attack (he was old enough to do this). This had the effect of defusing the whole situation as he staggered outside to his car wheezing and gasping all the way. Not the greatest exit but nobody got hurt.

Kind of a different take on the situation since if you stirke first with the intent and skill you are probably going to do damage. Basically the guy is going to be defenseless in the face of your attack. I don't think we should take it lying down but I think in those situations (where we strike first) I think we have a unfair advantage.

When people start a confrontation I would not feel like I am taking unfair advantage if it means self preservation. I look at it like this, they came to a battle of wits unarmed.

[Zoran]

Originally posted by Robbo

I don't think we should take it lying down but I think in those situations (where we strike first) I think we have a unfair advantage.

Who said I wanted to be fair?:shrug:

[Robbo]

It's just the nature of the attack that left me uncomfortable. A handsword or leapord paw to the throat can be lethal whereas a low shin kick to the outside of the thigh is extemely painful but rarely fatal.

[Cthulhu]

Originally posted by Robbo


A very proficient martial artist was in a bar in somewhat like the situation described and instead of attacking to defend himself he started to fake a heart attack (he was old enough to do this). This had the effect of defusing the whole situation as he staggered outside to his car wheezing and gasping all the way. Not the greatest exit but nobody got hurt.


I think I've read that one time, Penn (of Penn and Teller) was about to get into a fight. He dumped an entire milkshake on his own head. Seeing this, the aggressor didn't quite know what to do, so he just backed off.

Cthulhu

[Sigung86]

I suspect that the way the laws are set up in most states is that you have to feel physically threatened. Slices and chops to the throat, if carried through effectively, would in all likelihood, take a great deal of evidence to indicate they are warranted to a jury, should it come to that.


Avoidance is the best method, but not always possible. You would have to prove that you actually felt threatened for your life, in order to justify a "lethal" or near-lethal use... Most assuredly so in a case where you attacked first. That may be possible for someone who is 5 foot something and 150 pounds or under. For 6 foot and 180 plus ... It is something else again.

No matter the technique, it is up to you to prove that you felt threatened for your life to use a devastating, offensive technique. I suspect, once again, that you are able to legally "respond" in like method. e.g. You get in my face, I can kick your shin, push you down, or subdue and control you. You get in my face with a knife, broken bottle, baseball bat, etc. I can subdue you much more "effectively".

Not being a lawyer, I don't know for sure, but I suspect that, in a court of law, without solid evidence of preeminent justification, you could go to jail for using an offensive technique. More likely so if it comes to light that you are a practicing martial artist.

What techniques to use? Take the first guard/defensive motion off of any Kenpo technique, American or Tracy's and you have a series of truly fine offensive techniques.

Dan

[brianhunter]

I think this is perfectly acceptable, If you percieve something as a no win situation you should do something to change the situation.

If you feel action against you is going to be inevitable (which IMHO this one is) try and beat the unavoidable any way you can!

Now monkey stompping him on the ground and his friends doing nothing is wrong,
but if you defend yourself from the perceived threat and get the hell out of dodge i think you are in the right

[Judo_Kid]

It should be To Attack. Elephants is about to attack the whole City. By not Dodging the whole thing. :D

:EG:

[Judo_Kid]

Are those guys playing fools, or is it Real happend.
Ignore my 1st Elephant story its Ridicolous.
Well i heard of that one before it happend on a Real case, I saw that Story once in Judge Judy, but hey i odnt watch Judge judy.
Thats my first time doing that!

:EG:

[Goldendragon7]

this is a 44 magnum, THEE most powerful handgun int the world .... but in all this excitement, I plum forgot if I shot six rounds or only 5.....

You gotta ask yourself a question.....
Do you feel lucky.....
Well do ya punk....?????!!!!!

Go ahead ..... Make my Day......

:asian:

[C.E.Jackson]

I'ts a sad fact that as trained Martial Artists we come under much greater scrutiny under the law in most court rooms.

You have to ask one question when faced with this kind of situation.

Would I rather go to the hospital or worse.... (and let this guy get his way)

OR - Do I want to take my chances in court and stay out of the hospital (or worse)???

If you get a GOOD jump on a would be attacker before he can get his act together you may have a much better chance of subduing him with having to do seroius damage. Or not!

But by taking the initiative you at least have a chance of a good outcome without sending your attacker to the hospital. And if you don't send him to the hospital you may not even be charged.

:( But! Then look out for civil action.

(advisory - don't drop any of your business cards on the way out)

[Goldendragon7]

I'd rather be tried by twelve......:hammer:

Than carried by six! :sadsong:

:asian:

[GouRonin]

Better 10 injured than one dead.
:D

[Nightingale]

had I been in this kind of situation, personally, I would've slammed my knee up into the guy's groin, as long as he didn't have any friends with him. For me to take any action more lethal than that, he would have to touch me first, so I can guarantee that the law would be on my side.

[Michael Billings]

As Dan said, you can defend yourself before you are struck. However it is not based on a feeling, but on the belief that immenent physical harm is happening, or about to happen to you. Nightingale could pretty much have done what ever she wanted, short of killing him, and gotten away with it ... especially with all those witnesses. The amount of violence used to defend yourself is usually carefully looked at, as is the "perceived threat." A 6' 4" 230 lbs guy cannot trash a 5' 6" guy over a shove in a bar, and get away with it legally. There are exceptions to this of course, what if he had a weapon, what if he was a she, what if he had friends with him, what if, what if, what if. A little common sense here is what we need.

Most states also have a "duty to flee", but in this case your escape route was limited. Reasonable force is the doctrine defined by the law in regulating or judging the amount of force you can use to defend yourself. Although martial artists hands are not "registered" weapons, they can be lethal due to the training we receive. This does not preclude someone else from being equally lethal with no training ... stuff happens. If you are certain you are being attacked from, whatever cues you pick up, I would not risk being hit ... but I probably would not chop him in the throat unless he had friends coming or was armed. It is likely that he would die from this particular response, and I would be liable civilly if not legally. Conundrum.

Trust your instincts, consider the options in advance, role play in your schools.

Remember the more skills you have - the greater the range of response patterns you have available if needed.

-Michael
UKS-Texas

[brianhunter]

well said....Mr. Billings have you had some LE experiance????/

[Goldendragon7]

all my actions in self defense......!!!!!

If I were not attacked or provoked in some why then I do nothing......
I repeat........
"But should I be forced to defend MYSELF, my PRINCIPLES, or my HONOR, Should It be a matter of Life or death.... of right or wrong...."

Damn ....... wish I would have thought of that!!
It about covers it.

:asian:

[Zoran]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

I repeat........
"But should I be forced to defend MYSELF, my PRINCIPLES, or my HONOR, Should It be a matter of Life or death.... of right or wrong...."

This is what I was waiting for!!! As I said in the beginning of my post.




So, my question to everybody is, when should it be justified to "pull the trigger". Is self defense only to include protecting your self, and your loved ones, from physical harm? Do we have to wait until the physical attack is made, or is a threat enough? What about honor? I know what the law says, I want to know what you say.



Now as I said, forget the law for now. I started a new thread on that already. Now no one is going to attack me over the head with a "princple". So when is it okay to pull the trigger.

To make a real life example; a few years back, a male individual decided to steal a very large some of money from a female friend. After checking around, I found out that this person was a scam artist and had done this to many woman. This completely went against my principles!! The law could do nothing due to lack of evidence. So I visited this person and "convinced" him of how my idea of returning the money was the right thing to do.

Legally, I was in the wrong. I didn't care and still don't. What I defended was my view of right or wrong.
:soapbox:

Thanks GD7, I've posted this in several places and you are the first to take it to where I was hoping someone would go. I was beginning to feel like a dinasour.

[Goldendragon7]

but (as my friend Popeye) would say...... Alls I's can says is I feels likes I feels........ Ah ka kakakakakakaaaaaakaaaaaalkaaaaaa

Don't worry Zoranasaurus...... there are still a few Conasaurus Rex's and if you watch carefully.... you'll see a LaBrontasaurus or a Kellytriceratops roaming around..... even the rare Hukalatapus, or Joe Baldasaurus is roaming around...

:asian:

[Seig]

a few of us Neandrethals starting to pop up

[Zoran]

I think I would rather be called a Z-Rex.:D

[Goldendragon7]

we could be cousins........:rofl:

[Nightingale]

LOL...the mighty Z-Rex! ROTFLMAO, Zoran

[Seig]

A Z-Rex would be like a T-Rex with Longer arms?

[Zoran]

Bump, just dusting off an old thread for new members.


Originally posted by Seig

A Z-Rex would be like a T-Rex with Longer arms?

Seig, thanks for the idea for my little tag line.:D

[Seig]

You are most welcome!:D