Forms, Kata, Patterns.......Are they necessary?

[Corporal Hicks]

Do patterns really help you or are they a hinderance to learning techniques in a real combat situation or sparring situation?

How useful are patterns? In your opinion?

Bruce Lee (bless his old dead soul lol), though its only his opinion did not believe in the usefulness of patterns? Why was this so?

Regards
Nick

[OC Kid]

Here we go again. There currently is about 2 active threads on this subj.

[loki09789]

Patterns, trained automatic responses,kata....yup they are necessary.

Military units train in 'immediate action drills' which are team level 'self defense responses' similar to wrist grab escapes and combination striking found in civilian/individual skill training.

Sports teams rehearse 'set plays' within their team systems.

Boxers train combination striking.

I would say the problem is when you don't strike/train a balance of how to adapt that systematic/pattern of movement effectively in realistic situations.

[hedgehogey]

We already had this conversation. I already put up my arguements against dead patterns. Use the search function.

[DeLamar.J]

Try reading the forum grasshopper

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15465

[terryl965]

YES-YES-YES, I believe Kata, form Patterns have value to ones abilities. We study them on a regular basis and YES there are countless thread on this subject. We should try to help are MA'er Mr Hicks not go off on him because there are thread about the subject. He is trying to get info and insight on the matter. CAN'T WE ALL GET ALONG>>>> GOD BLESS AMERICA

[Corporal Hicks]

Sorry guys, my mistake

[loki09789]

Sorry guys, my mistake
Nothing to be sorry for IMO. If some feel they have said all they need to, best if they just ignore this thread then.

The idea of "dead" patterns has come up before. I have to agree with it in spirit. If you are doing it just because you have to, with no connection or application to reality then it is dead and is useless.

Patterns and combination moves are like "mini katas" because they are preset combinations that you drill for technical skill and then apply with progressive 'live' partners who give you more realistic resistance/variations of response as you progress and improve.

As long as there is a link between the pattern/combination/kata (of any length as far as I am concerned) and how the motions can be applied, then they are not dead - they are a training tool.

[Gary Crawford]

I agree with you Paul.I read an interview with George Dillman while back that he descibed a discussion he had with Bruce Lee on the subject.If I remember right:Bruce Lee said "George,you don't need forms,I don't need forms,but for one to learn to read ,he first has to learn the alphabet,then words ,then sentences and so on". Martial arts must start somewhere and forms is that somewhere IMHO.

[karatekid1975]

:rolleyes: I don't know why this topic keeps coming up. Everyone has different views on forms. But I think we heard them many times before. I don't want to start "stuff" and I don't intend to, but it is getting old .....

[Brother John]

Do patterns really help you

YES

are they a hinderance to learning techniques in a real combat situation or sparring situation?
NO
not if you understand them and do them with focused intent/emotional content!
If you just haphazardly just go through the motions...NOTHING 'works'.
Apathy and ignorance lose 10X out of 10 !!!

How useful are patterns? In your opinion?
Depends a lot on the "Pattern" in question now doesn't it?
The ones I train in, VERY useful...
in my opinion.

Bruce Lee (bless his old dead soul lol), though its only his opinion did not believe in the usefulness of patterns? Why was this so?
don't know.
Ask Bruce.
Even he would tell you that his way (Jeet Kune do / Jun Fan Gung-fu) is just another outlook/perspective...and doesn't "Trump" other ways that rely on what you are calling 'patterns'.
BTW: Bruce taught traditional Wing Chun Forms to a good many of his students, especially in his early Seatle years. (love trivia)
Besides, though he (personally) was very good... I don't consider him the end all be all of martial knowhow/understanding. Not by a long shot. Insightful, talented and VERY VERY dedicated to hard work though!

Your Brother
John

[TigerWoman]

Can't get around that. If you don't like them...learn to like them...otherwise you will never do GOOD form. Your attitude is everything. Discover the details, embrace the art, stretch yourself, learn balance, coordination, flexibility, agility, patience, strength, memory, focus, determination, indomitable spirit, perseverance--just a few things I have gotten out of it. YES, no one on this board who knows form would say otherwise. TW

[Brother John]

[QUOTE=karatekid1975] I don't know why this topic keeps coming up. [QUOTE]
Because MANY a novice doesn't yet know the worth of doing the forms/kata... because many instructors don't know it either! Sad sad state of afairs! A good instructor= teaches the benefit and meaning of forms, a poor one... doesn't know it, so he doesn't teach it.
I actually had a high ranking Sensei when I was a kid who said, when he couldn't explain an elaborate and confusing piece of movement from w/in a particular Kata, "just do it for the exercise".
HA! Raquet-ball would do a better job at the exercise than that segment of the kata!!!
Years later a more knowledgable instructor filled in that gap for me. That segment went from a purposeless toss of the hands to a meaninful technique that I could visualize and later duplicate on an attacker.
BIG difference!
The worth of forms is something that a person who takes their instructor's word for it and works hard....will later be able to understand, once their general knowledge/understanding deepens and they have a hindsight on it's benefits.
I'm glad I stuck with it!!!!!!!!!!!
and still am....
Your Brother
John

[Ceicei]

I got confused once with a kata trying to learn it, not knowing how it is supposed to go (since I could not visualize how/what the attacker was doing and from where he is supposed to attack). As I am a visual/kinetic learner, I asked my instructor. He stopped to think about it, then grabbed one of his other instructors and they went through the kata together, one being the attacker and the other as defender. Once I saw how it went and we practiced with him as the attacker on me, the kata made more sense to me. I was able to do it better because I can mentally imagine the attacker.- Ceicei

[MJS]

Nothing to be sorry for IMO. If some feel they have said all they need to, best if they just ignore this thread then.

The idea of "dead" patterns has come up before. I have to agree with it in spirit. If you are doing it just because you have to, with no connection or application to reality then it is dead and is useless.

Patterns and combination moves are like "mini katas" because they are preset combinations that you drill for technical skill and then apply with progressive 'live' partners who give you more realistic resistance/variations of response as you progress and improve.

As long as there is a link between the pattern/combination/kata (of any length as far as I am concerned) and how the motions can be applied, then they are not dead - they are a training tool.

With all due respect Paul, I guess what some people are trying to say is that how many times are we going to start the same thread with a different way of phrasing the same question???

Mike

[gmunoz]

YES-YES-YES, I believe Kata, form Patterns have value to ones abilities. We study them on a regular basis and YES there are countless thread on this subject. We should try to help are MA'er Mr Hicks not go off on him because there are thread about the subject. He is trying to get info and insight on the matter. CAN'T WE ALL GET ALONG>>>> GOD BLESS AMERICA
I agree. No need for harsh remarks. Not everyone is as familiar on martialtalk as others. Simply direct each other to the appropriate discusstion please. I know everyone would appreciate it much more.