Ken Corona Hwarangdo?

[shesulsa]

Has anyone here heard of / worked with / learned from Ken Corona in Arizona?

[Goldendragon7]

Has anyone here heard of / worked with / learned from Ken Corona in Arizona?

No but I have seen him and know him. Excellent martial artist.

[shesulsa]

So - just curious - a lot of discussion has been made about the Hwarangdo 70's gang of WHRDA students that moved on to prove themselves in their own schools - what of the 80's students who did the same? Has anyone ever heard of any of them? or is the shadow of the 70's too great to see beyond?

Respectfully,
SheSulsa

[glad2bhere]

Dear She:

My guess is that its better to consider these folks on the basis of their own merit rather than view them in light of a previous affiliation. The reason I suggest this is that IMVHE it seems that too often using the frame of reference you are advocating we tend to slip away from examining what makes the individual competent and get caught up in the political and affiliation loyalties instead. For instance, I don't know anything about the person mentioned in this string but would be very interested to know more about his skill set and teaching methods. Relating him to the HRD organization would seem to cast a pall over that discussion and might even bring his authenticity into question. Does this make sense?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Bob D.]

Shesulsa, You know KJN Corona...he's your instructors instructor. What's your point? Bob

[glad2bhere]

Ahhh fer krine-nout-loud.......

Please don't tell me this is another one of those

"I wonder what people think about Master so&so (who just happens to be my instructors' instructor....)?"

Words like "self-promotion" and "waste of time" are rapidly coming to mind. If you want to promote a particular agenda why not be a bit more up-front about it, yes? I feel a little "slicked" when someone who has been such an interesting contributor pulls garbage like this, ya know what I mean?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[shesulsa]

Wow! What a reaction!

I was actually just trying to learn more about the next generation that attended DJN Lee's school just for my own edification. I suppose I should have started a separate thread for this instead of tacking it onto this one.:)

With all due respect, I don't need to promote Master Corona; his ability speaks for itself and I wouldn't presume that hawking his schools is necessary - how rude that would be of me. I also don't really need to know what others think of him - it's what I think of him that counts in my mind.

Yes, I know KJN Corona; I've also been taught by KSN(?) Donnelly. But...really, so what? My only agenda is education...learning more about the OTHER students (not just Corona) who attended after the big, famous 70's group (I don't know who these people were). We all seem to just stop there in our knowledge - or, at least, discussion - of WHRDA; I'm just curious why?

If you think I have an alternative agenda, then please excuse me and please ignore the thread. Thanks.

Respectfully,

Georgia Ketchmark

[Bob D.]

I think Bruce jumped the gun on this but yes, you should have started another thread. I think the key here is to be direct with you questions. It did come across as baiting or ??? thats why I asked your point.
Regards, Bob

BTW; I don't use Korean titles but if my students want to call me something Korean that would be Sabunim (Chief instructor). Those other titles were implimented long after I started teaching. I think you'll find a lot of very good instructors out there that no longer have official rank in thier arts. I personally think it all meaningless as I has been very active in the arts for 20 of the last 25 years (5 year break in 80's)and have not done a "rank" test in 10.

[shesulsa]

Thank you, Sabunim Donnelly, I appreciate your consideration and I do apologize. Upon reading back, I suppose I can see that given the original title of this thread one could derive my later question as baiting.

I will take your advice and begin another thread directed more specifically towards my intent once I figure out exactly how I want to word my questions. :)

Respectfully,
Georgia Ketchmark

[Bob D.]

Kwan Jang Nim Corona is my "Big Brother" in the art. He is also a very close friend. He remembers all that I've forgotten in the art and much more. I learn something from him everytime I see him which is not often enough.
He started in the arts at a very young age and was teaching Judo-aikido in his teens. He then started Hwa Rang Do after seeing the Lee brothers demonstrate in Phoenix back in the 70's. From that point on he focused on his HRD with Joo Bang Lee, KJN Gil Kim, and was fortunate enough to be liveing at the Downey dojang (HQ) when a group of the highest ranking Korean masters that the Lee's had left in Korea came to the US. He had many training sessions with them and they where very generous with thier knowledge. He has a lot of natural talent and absorbs what he sees. One of those that "Finesses" technique. So, needless to say he is one of the most knowledgable and generous instructors I've known. More deserving of his "Title" then some of those that gave it.
Like a majority of the other instructors from WHRDA he is no longer affiliated with WHRDA and is doing great on his own (has 2 schools and many of his Blackbelt students teaching elsewhere).
Regards, Bob

[Bob D.]

Shesulsa, no title necessary. "Bob" is fine. Thanks, B

[HRD MA]

Good morning. Kinda late on the post, but I'm new to the forum.

I trained with Ken Corona from 1986 to 1988 when he had his school in Tempe AZ. I am currently a student of KJN Tim Elliot. Ken is a gifted martial artist and teacher, I learned alot from him. I believe his new school is now in Phx on Bell Rd. I pass it from time to time, it appears he is doing well.

HRD is a very comprehensive art. I've been in others, TKD, Chun Kuk Do and none have the components of HRD.

[C. G. Lopez]

This sure is a lot of talk about a man who does his best to stay out of politics.

[HRD MA]

You know alot is said about the politics of HRD. Every martial art I have been in has some level of politics going on. I just exited the Chuck Norris system of Chun Kuk Do, heck if you werent a black belt, the other BB'ts wouldnt shake your hand. Not to mention that if you dont attend this function or that function (out of state of course costing lots of dollars) you were looked down upon. Not saying its wrong, but just read the posts of other MA's and you will find politics.

The bottom line is if you have Masters, Grand Masters and a pecking order, politics will exist. The question is, can you deal with the politics of that particular art you are interested in? If so, march on and have a great time.

I'm sure there are politics in what Ken is now doing. The difference is, he is now at the top of the pile directing them. Not a wrong thing to do.

[Bob D.]

HRD MA, What you say has some truth to it.
Whats your name? I don't enjoy conversing with anonymous posters.
Regards, Bob Donnelly

[HRD MA]

Hey Bob. My name is Patrick. I go back with Tim and Ken to 1986 trained for two years with both of these excellent instructors then got caught up in life (Police Academy, Fiancee) and dropped off. That was a big mistake, I would very easily be a Sa Bum Nim by now. But I'm not. I have Half Blks in two other arts and a Green in HRD. HRD is definitely home. I just have to try and remember everything again. Geesh!

[glad2bhere]

I am just the leaast bit uncomfortable about a couple of things here.

On the one hand I don't hold with self-promotion and have very little patience for people who do. That said, though, if someone, known or not, is doing a decent job for his students I think its not such a bad thing to identify that person and say why. We certainly would want to know about some 8-ball whose ripping people off, yes?

The other point I would make is that I think the word "politics" gets misused sometimes. Demostrating ones' support for their organization or kwan is part of the MA culture. I agree some people abuse this aspect and make their members jump through all sorts of unnecessary hoops. All the same, I can remember not so very long ago when I fully expected my students to turn-out for a local seminar given by a very reputable person and had one student show up. Needless to say I was just a tad miffed and made no bones about it! The MA are not some gymnastic one takes in like a course on golf or tennis. It is a historic cultural artifact bound together by a code and dedicated to the development of the individual and in the service of the community. I know some people would probably like to strip it of these aspects and reduce it to the same level as boxing or wrestling. I'm not saying people CAN'T do it. I'm just saying I'd rather not have it done around me. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Bob D.]

Patrick, Sounds like you have a good background. I think learning vast sets of techniques without practical ability and being concerned with rank is a fruitless pursuit though. For me, going back to basics, concentrating on concepts and actual fighting are the keys to becoming a good martial artist. Unfortunatly, politics can make the latter impossible.
Bob

[Bob D.]

Hi Bruce, Who's self promoting? I don't get why you keep bringing that up here?
Bob

[HRD MA]

Not quite sure I followed you either Bruce. I guess you can call politics what you will, the word "loyalty" can also be substituted. Again, neither is a bad thing. Its just a measurement of what the student can tolerate. I believe in and support HRD and the World Headquarters System that we have, my choice. Others may call me misguided or whatever, thats cool. I believe in our system. This doesnt mean there are not other great systems and organizations out there. I think for the most part we are all united against the "Mc'dojos" which is important, there are so many out there.

I've been lucky. I am being trained by a great instructor in KJN Tim Elliot and back in 1986 I was lucky to be trained by two great instructors/martial artists in Sa Bum Nim Tim Elliot and Ken Corona.

[glad2bhere]

Sorry, Guys. I guess that doesn't come across well. My point was not that anyone was self promoting and I mentioned it only to say that I would probably comment loudly were someone to do so. My point was that if Ken Corona is doing good things for his students and probably takes a retiring view of himself on the World stage I couldn't fault somebody tooting his horn FOR him. I think we need to get the word out when someone does good things for the arts. My issue with "self-promotion" is when school owners incite their students to "talk-up" a particular system in order to draw inexpensive publicity. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[HRD MA]

I understand you now Bruce. Good points. From what I see, and remember I live in AZ just down the street from the Ken Corona Dojan. Ken is doing what is necessary to have a thriving martial arts practice. As is my instructor. Cant fault anyone for that type of self promotion.

I never knew why there was a falling out between Ken and HRD headquarters. Maybe Bob can shed some light on that one.

[Bob D.]

Bruce, None of KJN Corona's direct students have posted on this site. Shesulsa is about 800 miles away and trains under one of KJN Corona's past students.

Patrick, KJN Corona's relationship with WHRDA is his business and his alone.
Frankly, You'll find out for yourself why most leave if your around long enough to get to blackbelt. No offence intended but I think you know what I'm saying.

Bob

[MichiganTKD]

Sorry, Guys. I guess that doesn't come across well. My point was not that anyone was self promoting and I mentioned it only to say that I would probably comment loudly were someone to do so. My point was that if Ken Corona is doing good things for his students and probably takes a retiring view of himself on the World stage I couldn't fault somebody tooting his horn FOR him. I think we need to get the word out when someone does good things for the arts. My issue with "self-promotion" is when school owners incite their students to "talk-up" a particular system in order to draw inexpensive publicity. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce
Bruce,
Something that really grinds me is when someone posts a thread saying "This guy is really good. You should check him out" and conveniently has a link to some yahoo's website who just happens to have modeling photos of himself, questionable history, and biography including "wants to pursue acting."
Well said. I get tired of self promoting hacks or those who get their students to do it for them. One of the reasons I've never gone into detail about my own history unless someone asks. I know who I am. That's all I need.

[HRD MA]

Fair enough Bob. Everyone is pretty hush hush as to the falling out. Its too bad a business has become between two close friends such as Tim and Ken, but I guess that happens alot, I'm sure it has to be over money or something. In the mean time I'll respect the privacy. Doesnt changed the fact that Ken was a great HRD instructor and technician In the mean time, I'm training hard, enjoying HRD and will continue to support our organization.

[hwa_rang_do_adam]

my name is adam and this has nothing to do wit promotion, i have been a student of Master Ken Corona for about 2 weeks and I go there every week day from 3:00pm until 8:00pm to train and if he had the dojang open 24/7 I would live there, Master ken Corona is a great guy. Currently i am an orange belt, I dont know how long it usially takes to get from white belt to orange belt and know the kwon bop, ki bon kwan bup,nak bop,jok sul,hyung,and hoshin sul like the back of their hand. What in going for in this thread is that Master Ken Corona is a great Hwa Rang Do instructer


adam age 16
phoenix az

[C. G. Lopez]

Shesulsa,

This is to answer your original post. Yes, I Know Ken Corona very well and consider him a friend and teacher. I started training with him over eleven years ago and have grown tremendously as a person and a martial artist from the relationship. Ken is a very gifted Martial Artist and He is exceptionally giving with his knowledge.



C. G. Lopez

[glad2bhere]

Dear Michigan TKD:

"....Something that really grinds me is when someone posts a thread saying "This guy is really good. You should check him out" and conveniently has a link to some yahoo's website who just happens to have modeling photos of himself, questionable history, and biography including "wants to pursue acting."......."

I think you worded it a little better (clearer?) than did I. The original question for this string seems to be getting answered by folks who have a lot of positive things to say about this particular individual and thats all to the good. Thanks for the assist.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[shesulsa]

Dear Michigan TKD:

"....Something that really grinds me is when someone posts a thread saying "This guy is really good. You should check him out" and conveniently has a link to some yahoo's website who just happens to have modeling photos of himself, questionable history, and biography including "wants to pursue acting."......."

I think you worded it a little better (clearer?) than did I. The original question for this string seems to be getting answered by folks who have a lot of positive things to say about this particular individual and thats all to the good. Thanks for the assist.

Best Wishes,

Bruce Frankly, I still don't see how the very original question of this post has anything to do with promotion at all - the question that started the thread was:


Has anyone here heard of / worked with / learned from Ken Corona in Arizona? To be clear: Neither Master Corona nor any of his students asked me nor urged me nor even suggested that I post this question to the board.

I have not once stated that everyone should just quit their style and flock to Arizona, and I didn't even state my opinion of him as a martial artist or teacher. As I stated before, my opinion of Master Corona is what counts to me and his ability speaks for itself - there is no need to promote him here. Others have done so and that's fine - I'm glad to know a couple of people I have met post to the board here which was one reason the original question was posted in the first place.

The original intent was also to discuss what's going on with his schools and other martial arts in Arizona, however, I no longer believe I wish to discuss this on this board due to the negative reaction I received simply by posting a name and receiving the accusation of promotion or self-promotion or whatever.

Not to be rude, but - jeez.

Thank you to Mr. Lopez for posting and to Mr. Donnelly for the same and for the watchful eye.

Regards

[glad2bhere]

Dear She-sulsa:

Its quite possible that you may not have been keeping up on current events. In that outside chance please allow me to share a bit of information you have missed.

The Korean MA, for not a few generations has suffered, in the most real sense, defamation by Japanese nationalists, exploitation by commercial entities, corruption by their own leadership, misrepresentation by instructors, dereliction by practitioners, apathy by the Korean people and not a little mean-spiritedness and small-mindedness by people who should know better. From the tone of your post its readily apparent that you recognize over-reaction when you see it and just like you I don't care for it much myself. However I think I can be forgiven for being a little protective of the KMA given my investment of time and energy to a system which has brought me much and which I will never fully repay.

While I am at this please let me also say that whenever these issues crop up, whether it is self-promotion, blatant self-agrandizement, fraud or misrepresentation I have yet to see anyone own, up-front, that is what they are doing. The behaviors I am identifying are usually recognized, but typically only as something that "the other guy" is doing.

Lastly, please let me say that as a researcher and teacher I do my best to sit quietly while one newbie after another asks the same questions, posits the same opinions and raises the same issues for the umpteenth time. I bite my lip when more interesting or challenging material is ignored in favor of yet one more discussion of Bruce Lee, Van Damme or Jackie Chan. I wince quietly while yet one more unsubstantiated oral tradition is represented as truth while basic history stands in flat contradiction.

Now, if you can appreciate half of what I have just pressed into these last three paragraphes perhaps you might understand that actually Ken Corona is most probably #93 on my list of the "85 Most IMportant People To Give a Care About" and that people like me suffer quietly while strings like this represent standard fare on Nets such as this. Having said that I would politiely ask you to do you best to offer some finer material for discussion in the better interests of KMA or accept that when my "lame-ometer" gets pegged I will do something to raise the quality of the exchange myself. Fair enough?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Bob D.]

Ken Corona is most probably #93 on my list of the "85 Most IMportant People To Give a Care About" and that people like me suffer quietly while strings like this represent standard fare on Nets such as this. Having said that I would politiely ask you to do you best to offer some finer material for discussion in the better interests of KMA or accept that when my "lame-ometer" gets pegged I will do something to raise the quality of the exchange myself. Fair enough?


Bruce, What the hell are you blathering about? I don't see "moderator" next to your name and who elected you to police KMA's? Your in a pea size town NW of Chicago, what do you know about what's going on in Korean MA's in the rest of the country? In Southern California there are Korean MA schools within spitting distance of each other with every Korean owned one telling thier own story!
KJN Corona may not be on you "list" but he very well should be. He's more knowledgable and skillfull then 80% of the Korean "Masters" I run into. If people want to talk about him on this site thats great. People should be able to talk about anything they want in regards to MA's on a MA forum no?
Bob

[Bob D.]

BTW Bruce, You failed miserably "to raise the quality of the exchange myself"!
Bob

[glad2bhere]

Dear Bob:

Yes, of course you are very right. And since this is the second time that you have found it necessary to be affrontive while I was careful not to be affrontive perhaps it would be much better if we terminated this exchange. I am not sure what the size of the town I teach in has to do with anything, nor am I all that convinced that Ken Corona is all that better or worse than anyone else. And you are very right, noone died and left me to police the Korean Martial Arts. If I gauge my internal environment at all correctly I think I was exercizing my right to express my concern over the nature and themes of this particular string. I am very sorry my view does not coincide with yours. I also apologize for disrupting "business as usual" by expressing an opinion at odds with what the majority apparently is comfortable enjoying. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[shesulsa]

Dear Bruce,

Thanks for your reply. I would like for you to know that, although I am still rather green I am not unaware of the state of opinion on KMA and how they have suffered. I appreciate your willingness to protect and nurture KMA and it would be very nice, in my opinion if the KMA community could come together rather than continuing the in-fighting saga it is so well-known for. However, that lofty idea may never come to pass if we each treat KMA as our baby and no one else's.

Further, if a thread is much too basic to tickle your grey matter, then with all due respect, feel free to do as I do - leave it alone. I love my right to simply pass over all the discussion on Van Damme and Chan or to scan the threads and refrain from reply or contribution unless I REALLY think I MIGHT be able to contribute something constructive to the thread. Now, I don't ALWAYS achieve that, but I try to.

That said, if this thread hits your "lame-ometer" then that's too bad and it's a pity that my attempt at opening conversation on KMA in Arizona and, specifically, Master Corona's schools is squashed due to your lack of interest.

And I still fail to see any self-aggrandizement here except for - well - nevermind.

Regards

[Bob D.]

Bruce, You still insist there is some sort of "promotion" going on. Please show me! And yes I'm being "affrontive", you just got through basically saying you don't give a rats ass about someone I care about immensely and you don't think it OK to discuss him.
Walk on by my friend. Don't look. Switch the channel.
Don't tell me what subject you think is OK to post or not.
I did not ask that your opinion coincide with mine, just that you don't interject an issue that is not on this thread. You are still implying there is some sort of evil conspiracy on this thread....WTF!!!
Bob

[HRD MA]

While I do not agree with the teaching of HRD outside of our organization, it is true that Ken Corona is a talented MA, and instructor. Unfortunately, any rank obtained from his school is not recognized except from within his school. Which maybe enough for some. It certainly doesnt diminish the technique and or skill level of the instructor or student.

AZ is also getting over loaded with MA Schools. There is now one on every corner. Fortunately (not for the students), most fail. Everywhere you look there is "Toms TKD" or "Jims Kung Fu."

I drove by the Corona MA School yesterday and it looks like everything is well. Hopefully Ken can make a go of it at this location.

[Bob D.]

QUOTE:"While I do not agree with the teaching of HRD outside of our organization".....
"Unfortunately, any rank obtained from his school is not recognized except from within his school"

Patrick, Recognized by whom? Why don't you visit Mr. Lopez's school down in Mesa and tell him how you don't recognize his rank, then let me know if you think he cares. You say wisely that "It certainly doesnt diminish the technique and or skill level of the instructor or student" and then you spout off cultish rhetoric. HRD is about 75% Choi Hapkido or whatever you want to call it. JBL and his contemporaries all left their "Master" and started their own styles. Why was it OK for them? "....Teaching outside of our organization"? Thats just silly.
There are probably less WHRDA schools in the country then you have fingers. Take away GM Yum's schools on the East coast and you could count them on one hand. Thirty or so years ago, Suh, In hyuk invented his Kook Sul Won around the same time Lee, Joo Bang invented his HRD. Suh has hundreds of Kook Sul won schools under him. What that means I'll leave for you to figure out. I know why it is.
It's the art that matters. Whether you choose Tim, Joe or whoever it's the art, not the man or club.
JMHO, Bob

[HRD MA]

Thats Correct Bob. I would not recognize any HRD rank that is not approved by our organization. But like you said, I'm sure very few would care.

Taking in account my background you will find that I will always show loyalty to the organization I choose to be a part of. I was a US Marine and Police Officer. Both of which I show fierce loyalty. Is the US Marine Corps a cult because they expect a certain behavior? Without any questions asked? Dont think so.

The WHRD organization demands certain loyalties and it is a choice to adhere to or not, that simple. I choose to honor those loyalties. The word "cult" is an exaggeration by those who did not agree with those loyalties and decided to drop out. No biggie

I'm sure there are other systems that have organizations that could be considered "cults" by those that dont agree with that organization.

Sorry Bob, there is no talent throwing the word "cult" around. Its a very "attention getting" word.

If Mr. Lopez trained under Ken, I'm sure he is a talented martial artist.

[shesulsa]

I just wanted to state that this thread was not intended to begin a loyalty war nor to discuss WHRDA and non-WHRDA politics, and that I will refrain from discussing these types of things on this thread as they are none of my business.

Regards

[Bob D.]

Websters: Cult, .......2. devoted attachment to a person, principle, etc.

It's an accurate word, like it or not.
I hope your not comparing WHRDA to the US Marines?
Loyalty is not the issue. But this is not the place to carry on this conversation.
Regards, Bob

[shesulsa]

We could also argue the point that the fact an organization exists doesn't mean its authority is right or wrong - it is just an organization. We could parallel this analysis with any organization in history - the NRA, NASA, WHO, the Nazis, PLO...you name it. They are/were all organizations - some have favorable reputations, others don't and they all exude power over certain entities for certain purposes...don't they? Does that mean everything they do is right? or wrong? What about the intentions behind the actions of these organizations?

Let's say there is a neighborhood organization that says you must choose between three different colors (all very similar) for the exterior paint of your home and three different colors (again, all very similar) for the exterior trim of your home. What if the base color is gunmetal grey and the accent color is hot pink? And it's that way because the Neighborhood Association says that's the way it's got to be. Do you have to like it? Are you gonna do it? You're a member of the neighborhood association, aren't you? Or...don't you recognize the beauty in that combination of colors? Are they right or are you right? Or are you both wrong?

I wonder if this is enough to tickle the grey matter...or if my grey matter is tickled...or if grey matter is actually grey...maybe it's gunmetal grey with hot pink accents...or maybe it doesn't really matter....

[C. G. Lopez]

To Create a Cult you must have three things, the first is an authority figure/ group/ icon/ idol. Authority
(claims to receive knowledge from a “Higher source” guro/sifu/icon/god)http://www.straightblastgym.com/triangle.gifTerminology
(When the “group” uses the same terms as the “Authority” they begin to see things colored by the same perceptions as the authority. They are all on the same page. The clever use of language helps control the groups perceptions, ideas, and thoughts.) Ritual
(the authority uses ritual to control
the groups “actions” in a physical sense.
This is done by controlling associations,
relationships, and the groups “time”)

This “authority” figure must claim to receive its information and “legitimacy” from a “higher source”. A sifu, guro, Icon, master, or even God himself. The source of the authorities legacy is to a certain degree perceived as infallible, and as such, becomes a sacred cow.
In the Martial Arts world this is done by tracing “lineage” back to a mystical source. A keeper of the magic book.
In the religious world this is done by tracing the source of information back to a prophet, or to God himself. The Authority must set themselves up as the mouthpiece of God on Earth. The keepers of truth.

http://www.straightblastgym.com/jkdelite.jpg
A meeting of the JKD elite

The next essential element is terminology. Terminology allows the authority the ability to make the group perceive and express the same ideas as the authority. If you are performing a “foute”, “Jeet Tek”, or “teep” you are to a degree expressing a “style”. If you are simply “kicking” then you are expressing yourself. An Authority will always prefer you express “their style”, and not yourself.

In religious cults the use of language serves to create a distinction not between “styles” as in Martial Arts, but between the authorities “truth”, and lies, or the “world”. If we say “we are in the truth” then others are by proxy must be “in a lie”. Although this may go unstated, the implication is absolute. It is necessary for all cult authorities to create an environment of “us vs them”. This is done through the clever use of language, “terminology”.

Us vs them
Insiders vs outsiders
The tribe vs the enemy
The sacred vs the profane





Governments will often use language for the same purpose. Repeated often enough “repetition for emphasis” (a form of brainwashing), the ideas the government wish to get across often become truths in the public mind.

For example:

We give foreign aid they export revolution
We inform they use propaganda
We defend ourselves they are aggressors
Our missiles are designed to deter theirs designed to strike
We have “defensive” weapons they have offensive weapons http://www.straightblastgym.com/uniform.jpg The final ingredient to an unhealthy organization, and a successful cult is the use of ritual. Ritual is designed to control the time and relationships of the group. This in turn helps control the group’s actions.

What does that mean? Here is a simple example. In ancient Rome most legionnaires would never throw a spear in anger. Especially during the famous era of roman peace. As such the government constantly kept the legions working. Building walls, towns, and structures. Keeping the legions busy, and controlling the legions “time”, kept the legions from thinking long and hard about the Roman governments decisions, and possibly becoming a threat and considering an overthrow.

In Martial Arts ritual is used to control a students time and relationships. Higher ranking students often train separately from lower ranking students, and encouraged not to fraternize. Their training sessions are often secret. This prevents the beginning student from forming a clear picture of where this “art” eventually leads, and thus becoming disillusioned.

The elaborate use of ritual, and rigid class structure keeps the student occupied during class time. Without their own “time” to explore the information in class, and spar in an “alive” manner, they are never afforded the opportunity to discover that what they are learning will not actually work. It also helps keep the student “in his place”. Which is to say that he is discouraged through the use of ritual from ever questioning the authority figure in any way.

Another way Martial Arts Guro’s exert control on their organizations is by discouraging the students from training at other schools or Gyms. Some extreme organizations even kick out students who attend other classes, as this is deemed “disloyal”!

In religion ritual is use for the same purpose. Devotees are often discouraged from associating with outsiders. In extreme cults the Organization will often go so far as to “excommunicate” people for associating with certain individuals! This control of the group’s relationships helps keep the group in line with the authorities ideas. Just as with the military, religious cults must also find a way to occupy the groups time, thus cutting down on the time the group has to research and think about the authorities decisions. This is often done by demanding large amounts of time a week where the group meets together, and in some cults through proselytizing. Encouraging the group to spend its free time recruiting others.
Religious Cults also exert control on their groups by discouraging, or in some extreme cases, out right banning members from reading publications or books that offer an alternative view, which is deemed destructive or malicious by the cult. Rest assured that any organization on earth that pursues such a policy must have much to hide. Just as any Martial Arts Instructor who pursues such a policy is demonstrating his own insecurity.
Any group or individual that is offering only the truth will NEVER discourage adherents from reading critical literature. Truth will always shine out, and there is no need for book banning when you speak and preach only truth!

The most effective ways to exert control over an individual life is through associations (whom the group is allowed form relationships with). Occupying the groups personal time, and sex. This is why you will find a heavy emphasis placed on the personal life of cult members. . who they are with, when they are with them, and who they sleep with. This is the sign of a clear cut religious cult.

Why do people create/ need cults?

That’s a good question. The only possible answer I can think of is that people find security in a cult environment. There is comfort in submitting to an authority that claims to receive its knowledge and legitimacy from a “higher source”. There is comfort in the group that uses an us vs them paradigm, and enforces its dogma with terminology. There is comfort in dogma itself, and there is great comfort in ritual. In things familiar.

“So we acquire a sense of self worth either by realizing our talents, or by keeping busy or by identifying ourselves with something apart from us – be it a cause, a leader, a group, possessions or whatnot. The path to self realization is the most difficult.”

“Similarly, we have more faith in what we imitate than in what we originate. We cannot derive an absolute certitude from anything which has its roots in us. The most poignant sense of insecurity comes from standing alone and we are not alone when we imitate. It is thus with most of us; we are what other people say we are. We know ourselves chiefly by hearsay.”
- Bruce Lee



Truer words are seldom spoken. It is that path of self realization that Bruce spoke of that we need to encourage others and ourselves to pursue. We do not want to become one of the countless numbers of people who derive their sense of self worth from belonging, or following, a leader, cause, or cult.

http://www.straightblastgym.com/needcult.jpgHow then do we create an organization without creating a cult?

By following the fourth principle of the Gym. Not setting yourself up as an authority figure. Not encouraging others to use cult like language, titles, or and us vs them attitude. And finally, by not creating any ritual.
People must be allowed to think for themselves. Indeed they should be encouraged to exercise and develop critical thinking. Questioning authority every single step of the way. And constantly demanding that anybody, or anything that sets itself up as an authority justify its own existence.

One thing is absolutely certain;





More harm, violence, death and destruction, has been done in the name of “Just obeying authority”, then has been, or ever will be done in the name of rebellion!

Suggested reading:“Why people believe weird things” psuedoscience, superstition and other confusion By Michael Shermer“Faces of the enemy” By Sam Keen“The awakening of intelligence” By Krishnamurti“The first dissident” By William Safire“Manufacturing Consent” Noam Chomsky on media By Mark Archbar“The Power of Myth” By Joseph Campbell“The Fountinhead” By Ayn Rand“Religions, Values, and peak-experiences” By A.H. Maslow“The Ideals of Theodore Roosevelt” By Edward Cotton“The Prince” By Machiavelli“Man and his symbols” By Carl Jung“Modern Mysticism” By Michael Gellert“Being there” By Jerzy Kosinski“The Aryan Christ” bio of C.G. Jung By Richard Noll“The Hero with a thousand faces” By Joseph Campbell“Mankind and his search for meaning” By Viktor Frankl

Krishnamurti: “Suppose, if there were no book, no guru, no teacher, what would you do? What would you do? No drugs, no tranquilizers, no organized religions, what would you do?
Questioner: “I can’t imagine what I would do.”. . . . . . . . . . . . . .Perhaps there would be a moment of urgency there.”
Krishnamurti: “That’s it. We haven’t the urgency because we say, “well somebody is going to help me.”
Questioner: “But most people would be driven insane by that situation.”
Krishnamurti: “I am not so sure sir.”
http://www.straightblastgym.com/krisnstanding.jpgOn August 3rd, 1929 Krishnamaurti spoke to a crowd of thousands at a camp in Ommen. The crowd had gathered to hear the man that had been proclaimed a “Messiah” as a child, a “Savior”. Needless to say they where shocked and surprised by the speech that Krishnamurti gave, and the truth that he revealed. Here is a transcript of that famous 1929 speech.

We are going to discuss this morning the dissolution of the Order of the Star. Many people will be delighted, and others will be rather sad. It is a question neither for rejoicing nor for sadness, because it is inevitable, as I am going to explain.

You may remember the story of how the devil and a friend were walking down the street, when they saw ahead of them a man stoop down and pick up something from the ground, look at it, and put it away in his pocket. The friend asked the devil, “What did that man pick up?” “He picked up a piece of the truth,” said the devil. “That is very bad business for you, then” said his friend. “Oh, not at all,” the devil replied, “I am going to help him organize it.”

I maintain that truth is a pathless land, and you cannot approach it by any path whatsoever, by any religion, by any sect. That is my point of view, and I adhere to that absolutely and unconditionally. Truth, being limitless, unconditioned, un approachable by any path whatsoever, cannot be organized; nor should any organization be formed to lead or to coerce people along any particular path. If you understand that, then you will see how impossible it is to organize a belief. A belief is purely an individual matter, and you must not organize it. If you do, it becomes dead, crystallized; it becomes a creed, a sect, a religion, to be imposed on others. This is what everyone throughout the world is attempting to do. Truth is narrowed down and made a plaything for those who are weak, for those who are only momentarily discontented. Truth cannot be brought down, rather the individual must make the effort to ascend to it. You cannot bring the mountintop to the valley. If you would attain to the mountaintop, you must pass through the valley, climb the steeps, unafraid of the dangerous precipices. You must climb towards the truth, it cannot be “stepped down” or organized for you. Interest in ideas is mainly sustained by organizations, but organizations only awaken interest from without. Interest, which is born out of love of truth for its own sake, but aroused by an organization, is of no value. The organization becomes a framework into which its members can conveniently fit. They no longer strive after the truth or the mountaintop, but rather carve for themselves a convenient niche in which they put themselves, or let the organization place them, and consider that the organization will thereby lead them truth. . . . .I maintain that no organization can lead man to spirituality.

If an organization is to be created for this purpose, it becomes a crutch, a weakness, a bondage, and must cripple the individual, and prevent him from growing, from establishing his uniqueness, which lies in the discovery, for himself of the absolute, unconditioned truth. So that is another reason why I have decided, as I happen to be the head of the order, to dissolve it. No one has persuaded me to this decision.

This is no magnificent dead, because I do not want followers, and I mean this. The moment you follow someone you cease to follow the truth. I am not concerned with whether you pay attention to what I say or not. I want to do a certain thing in the world and I am going to do it with unwavering concentration. I am concerning myself with only one essential thing: to set man free. I desire to free him from his cages, from all fears, and not to found religions, new sects, nor to establish new theories or philosophies. Then you will naturally ask me why I go the world over, continually speaking. I will tell you for what reason I do this; not because I desire a following, not because I desire I desire a special group of disciples. (How men love to be different from their fellowmen, however ridicules, absurd, and trivial the distinctions may be! I do not want to encourage that absurdity.) I have no disciples, no apostles, either on earth or in the realm of spirituality.

. . . . . . . .If there are only five people who listen, who will live, who will face their faces towards uncertainty, it will be sufficient. Of what use is it to have thousands who do not understand, who are fully embalmed in prejudice, who do not want new, but would rather translate the new to suit their own sterile, stagnant selves? If I speak strongly, please do not misunderstand me, it is not through lack of compassion. If you go to the surgeon for an operation, is it kindness on his part to operate even if it causes you pain? So, in a like manner, if I speak straightly, it is not through lack of real affection – on the contrary.

. . . For eighteen years you have been preparing for this event, for the Coming of the world teacher. For eighteen years you have organized, you have looked for someone who would give a new delight to your hearts and minds, who would transform your whole life, who would give you a new understanding; for someone who would raise you to a new plane of life, who would give you a new encouragement, who would set you free – and now look what is happening! Consider, reason with yourselves, and discover in what way belief has made you different – not with the superficial difference of the wearing of the badge, which is trivial, absurd. In what manner has such belief swept away all the essential things of life? That is the only way to judge ; in what way are you free, greater, more dangerous to every society which is based on the false and unessential? In what way have the members of this organization of the Star become different?

. . . You are all depending for your spirituality on someone else, for your happiness on someone else, for your enlightenment on someone else; and although you have been preparing for me eighteen years, when I say these things are unnecessary, when I say that you must put them all away and look within yourselves for the enlightenment, for the glory, for the purification, and for the incorruptibility of the self, not one of you is willing to do it. There may be a few, but very, very few.

So why have an organization?

. . . .I said last year that I would compromise. Very few listened to me then. This year I have made it absolutely clear. I do not know how many thousands throughout the world – members of the Order – have been preparing for me for eighteen years, and yet now they are not willing to listen unconditionally, wholly, to what I say.

So why have an organization?

. . . .You will see how absurd is the whole structure that you have built, looking for external help, depending on others for your comfort, for your happiness, for your strength. These can only be found within yourselves.

So why have an organization?

You are accustomed to being told how far you have advanced, what is your spiritual status. How childish! Who but yourself can tell you if you are incorruptible? You are not serious in these things.

So why have an organization?

But those who really desire to understand, who are looking to find that which is eternal, without beginning, and without end, will walk together with great intensity, will be a danger to everything that is unessential, to unreality’s, to shadows. And they will concentrate, they will become a flame, because they understand. Such a body we must create, and that is my purpose. Because of that real understanding their will be friendship. Because of that true friendship – which you do not seem to know – there will be real cooperation on the part of each one. And this is not because of authority, not because of salvation, not because of immolation for a cause, but because you really understand, and hence are capable of living in the eternal. This is a greater thing then all pleasure, than all sacrifice.

So these are some of the reasons why, after careful consideration for two years, I have made this decision. It is not from a momentary impulse. I have not been persuaded to it by anyone. I am not persuaded in such things. For two years I have been thinking about it, this, slowly, carefully, patiently, and I have decided to disband the Order, as I happen to be its head. You can form other organizations and expect someone else. With that I am not concerned, nor with creating new cages, new decorations for the cages. My only concern is to set men free absolutely, unconditionally free. Krishnamurti August 3. 1929



“Look haven’t I made this abundantly clear. Don’t follow anyone else, and don’t become a Guro yourself.”

“The moment you follow somebody you no longer pursue truth”

“The moment you reject experience, and instead seek the mysterious, then you are caught”. - Krishnamurti

[shesulsa]

A most excellent post, Mr. Lopez. Thank you, Sir.

[HRD MA]

Good morning all. Enjoyed the sparring match and I think valid points were made by all. I believe only time will tell.

[C. G. Lopez]

If you like the cult post, check out Matt Thornton and the guy's from the straight blast gym. Matt put this together out of disgust for the direction of the martial arts today.

Stop by any descent BJJ School or good kickboxing gym and you will see great martial artists training with more intensity and dedication then at 99% of the Dojangs around the world. You will see great schools without students worshiping a figurehead or creating some crazy story about some mythological history.

I know this is a little off the topic of the original post. But hey, I love sub plots.

I don’t post this as an insult to the Moo Sul Arts, only to point out that you can have great teachers and students without all the silliness.

-Lopez



I'll try and keep to the topic of the main post.

[HRD MA]

Yes, I think there are "Americanized" Do Jangs all over the place. I think we have to remember that Ken was trained and learned his great technique under the other method of instruction. In all likelihood it was not a figure head or "silliness" that turned people away, but probably a financial squabble.

[Bob D.]

Actually Patrick you haven't been around it long enough to know what's going on. Let's talk again about this after you've gone to HQ and taken your BB test.
I've been studying HRD for 20 of the last 25 years. I've seen what a lot of my seniors have gone through. Two years and a green belt (which is what time it should take btw) under one instructor does not give you the right or knowledge to judge anyone or anything involved.
I'd be happy to discuss anything else MA related as you seem to have been in the arts in general for some time.
Regards, Bob

[shesulsa]

Yes, I think there are "Americanized" Do Jangs all over the place. I think we have to remember that Ken was trained and learned his great technique under the other method of instruction.
What other method of instruction are you referring to?

[spoynter]

Shesulsa,
In reply to your original question:
I, fortunately, have been a student of KJN Corona for the past 5 years. Not only is he a wonderful Martial Artist and Teacher, he is a friend that
genuinely cares about his students and community. His instructors also follow his lead in this area.

Patrick, with all due respect, speculating on issues you know nothing about "(In all likelihood it was not a figure head or "silliness" that turned people away, but probably a financial squabble.)" is as silly as going full contact with a Black Belt on your first day of instruction. I only bring this up because you keep making uneducated statements. Please do not take offense, that was not my intention.

Steve

[TomakaStud]

It's ok to say something that people will take offense too, in fact i probably am about to do it right now. Patrick, you have brass balls to be talking down anyone you have not peronally met #1, #2 to sugest (twice) that it had something to do with $$$ without and proof whatsoever show's a complete lack of integrity and fortitude, and frankly cowardness to say such a thing hiding behind a screne with little more proof that a rumor or assumption. I can't even presume to suggest that anyone would accuse another person of leaving a friendship that was like brotherhood and sincere admiration for something as selfish as a few $$$. Wherever you are getting your information from, perhaps KJN Elliot, who i trained under as did my father when i was a child and spoke with him at the new dojang only two months ago, you should seriously consider checking the other side of the story as there are always two!

On that note, i have complete respect and admiration for KJN Elliot. He was my instructor as a child and i will always treat him with honor until the day he gives me reason not to (i don't presume that would ever happen).

As Bob stated, stay away from subjects and issues you have no idea about and can only speculate on, keeps you from looking like the dumb a-- you are!

[Bob D.]

Easy guys! Lets just agree amongst ourselves that this subject is taboo. I think I said enough about it earlier...lets not take it further.
Farang, Bob

[shesulsa]

I really don't appreciate hearing negative things about Master Corona - especially from people who have never met the man and who seem to think they come from some place of authority because they hold a membership to an organization. I think you'll find, Patrick, that those who have met him / know him contain immense respect for the man.

[Bob D.]

I don't think Patrick was being disrespectful...just mislead by someone. Bob

[TomakaStud]

Easy guys! Lets just agree amongst ourselves that this subject is taboo. I think I said enough about it earlier...lets not take it further.
Farang, Bob
Agreed, i only posted because i've been reading this for some time and some things said obviously hit a nerve and weren't being dropped. Just as i have no business or place to speculate or state my opinion having not been there at that time. (even though i have talked with both parties and heard both sides of the story and have made my decision based on that). Very few people like yourself who were there have an opinion that matters and can make statements with conviction.

Like i said before if you have speculation you should go to the source for your answer, if you doubt someones skill or teachings you should ask for comparisson or go see for yourself.

End of discussion for me unless i get brought into it again.

Farang, Tom

[shesulsa]

I would ask to have the thread locked since it really didn't go where I hoped it would go - however, there are also some really nice posts here too.

Glad to meet you Tom, Steve and Adam. Always good to hear from you, SBN Donnelly and KSN Lopez.

Farang,

GK

[spoynter]

It is nice to meet you also. I for one am glad you opened this discussion. It has given some of us the opportunity to celebrate a great man and teacher. Did you come down to the Tempe school a few years ago for the testing? If so, I'm sure we met then.

[shesulsa]

Yes, as a matter of fact. I tested for red (boy did I screw up my form!!) and another Washington student tested for half-black. Could you please give me a clue as to your identity or PM me, sir?

And yes, I always look forward to visits from and with KJN - he's awesome.

[TomakaStud]

Any of you Washington people coming down for Sulsa camp this year?

[shesulsa]

Not sure - what are the dates?

[Kuk Sa Nim]

Very interesting discussion, but unfortunately, you are all starting to "beat an old horse to death". The subject of WHRDA, and (very good) black belts leaving is not taboo, except for those with little actual knowledge or with something to hide or who want to spread (un-true) rumors. As Bob D. said, for those of us that were there, we and only we know the full details of our relationships and ultimate departure from WHRDA. It is in fact very personal, and for most, painful. But it is still our own business.
As for the original topic of this discussion, I DO know Master Corona personally. We are "brothers" and I can say that there are few martial artists as talented and genuinely humble as him. He is a true gentleman and an example to us all.

Farang!

GM De Alba

[shesulsa]

Thank you, Kuk Sa Nim De Alba, and I appreciate your response to the topic. It's great to hear from people on the board who know Master Corona.

Farang!

G. Ketchmark

[deckerweb]

This is a fascinating medium. I have learned so much by this discussion and others on this board. I hope it is not obvious that I am not so savvy with the up and coming, but this thread has especially held my attention, so I’ve read up on several topics while I’ve been here. May I offer my two sense as well? :rolleyes:



Obviously, this thread is about more than an individual, it is just that this individual stands out. I think this thread is about culture; the culture of this Kwan; the HRD tribe. KJN Corona gave me my understanding of the bond we share. It is that of honor before pride; a belief that respect, loyalty, and even love is a gift shared between a student and their teacher; and to “do more, talk less”. KJN bares the burden of his freedom like a weight. The emancipation was necessary and best… but KJN won’t speak ill of DJN, wishes him well even. KJN won’t speak up to defend himself, wouldn’t lower himself through “self-promotion”, or self aggrandizing. Honor (dignity) comes before pride. He just wants to teach and forge his own path. (I apologize for speaking for one not present but this is MHO).



What truly speaks out about this thread is how many of us there are. The cast out; the expelled; the remnant. Are we Hwarang, still, not being able to speak the word? Trademark restrictions and all. Funny, I don’t feel different. Still know the forms; still know the techniques; still study the HwaRangDo-O-Kae. Yet when I’m out and about in MA circles and I’m asked, “…, what do you study?” there is this awkward pause. I don’t know what to say. Recently, I just say I’m HKD and hope to avoid the usual conversation that follows.



Why are there so many of us? I have “cousins” I will never know because the families are feuding. KJN Corona and KJN Elliot never had a falling-out. They were/are childhood friends. They are separated because of a punishment WHRDA rendered upon a dissenter. One is WHRDA, and one is not, that is all.



I said in jest to KSN Chris the other day (when he was encouraging me to post) that I will ask the question, “to Kwan, or not to Kwan”. He laughed and said, “Please don’t”. I guess it is not really a jest. I want to know. What do we do now? Does the WHRDA matter? Do Kwans matter? Does rank matter?



Does anyone know?



Very Truly,

Scott Decker

[shesulsa]

Greetings, Mr. Decker.

I am intrigued by your post, sir.

Thank you.

G. Ketchmark

[glad2bhere]

Dear Scott:

Kwans, in fact DO matter, however the institution needs to be treated as more than a term to invoke some romantic past. The nature of the kwan carries with it significant responsibilities both for the teacher AND the student. There are many times terms are misused with, I believe, the most common being the use of "federation" and "association" to describe an organization which is really a sole proprietorship. Until people generate enough integrity within themselves to actually do what they say they are doing, the term "kwan" will continue to be misused and misapplied. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Kuk Sa Nim]

Hello Scott,
It's very good to bring up issues that you feel close to. The ones you brought up here (among several others), were also brought up at our "HRD Renegade Meeting" in 1993. (Wow, that was already 11 yrs ago!). We discussed our mutual concerns, confusion and attachments among other topics such as rank and it's meaning/worth.

This art that we love resides in our heart, not on a piece of paper, not in our belts nor affiliations. Nor can it be owned by any person. This is why martial arts are such a powerful vehicle for self confidence, self discipline and empowerment to people of all walks of life. They become a very personal expression of ones many joys. It also provides answers to our many fears as well. They stimulate and reach a diversity of people on so many different levels. The rewards they provide are priceless. One must never loose sight of ones hopes and dreams, as well as our zeal to pursue them.

When discussing rank and titles, one must look at them as a double edged sword. It cuts both ways. In as much as rank and titles don't mean a thing to the "outsider" and surely an opponent in the street. They could care less what rank we have, what titles, belts, etc we posses. Self defense is self defense. When the rubber hits the road, it's not what you know, it's what you can do. This SELF DEFENSE aspect must never be lost in our training. We ARE DOING Martial Arts. On the other hand, our rank, titles, customs and etiquette have real value only to those of us who are directly involved and understand and appreciate them. They are VERY heavy, as they are not easily attained by just anyone. Truly attained, earned, you know what I mean? This something one can have pride in. But as I said, don't take it all too seriously.

Anyway, just a couple thoughts. Keep up the good work.

With brotherhood,

GM De Alba

[Sun Bae]

Having been around HRD since 1984 when you had to test at the Downey HQ for every belt in front of a committee of Kwan Jang Nim with Do Joo Nim heading up the testing while seated at a table in the middle of all the Kwan Jang Nim and a little 12 year old brat child running around yelling at everyone, while a very courteous 9 year old offered his services, I might have a little perspective on the original intent of this thread.

My original HRD teacher was Kwan Jang Nim Chu, who you will not find listed on the official HRD web page. Kwan Jang Nim Gil Kim considered Kwan Jang Nim Chu to be his older brother and would stop by Kwan Jang Nim Chu's school and spare with us, this is the way to learn MA!, getting beat up by a Kwan Jang Nim LOL; all though, I believe it was Sa Bum Nim Kim at the time. My second HRD teacher was Kyo Sa Nim Corona who became Sa Bum Nim Corona who later became Kwan Jang Nim Corona and is no longer listed on the HRD web page. I was one of Kwan Jang Nim Corona's first "Tempe boys and Girls Club/City Park/University Blvd" students. Just for reference I also studied with Kwan Jang Nim Elliot, Sa Bum Nim Tyler and the Bain brothers. I have also studied under Sifu Kam Yuen and various other martial arts, unfortunately the martial arts have been more of an intellectual exercise and my highest progression has been to half-black, I really don't have the talent of my older HRD brothers.

When I visit the HRD HQ web page the original and best students of HRD including Kwan Jang Nim Chu, Kwan Jang Nim Gil Kim, Kwan Jang Nim Corona and many others are conspicuously missing from the Black Belt and above list, obviously something is up! The real question is; is it anyone's business besides Do Joo Nim and the students who have been removed from the list? I would say let sleeping dogs lie and pray that Do Joo Num shows true leadership and reconciles the differences in private restoring the family he started and then alienated.

I have done extensive research into the linage of HRD and if you are reading this Bruce, Do Joo Nim was almost your boss having been the top ranked Hap Ki Do Master at one time; all though, the Hap Ki Do you know would not be the Hap Ki Do taught by Do Joo Nim Lee. I have studied Kuk Sul Won under In Huk Su and find HRD and Kuk Sul Won to be surprisingly similar and I really don't want to debate which one is better. From my observations better is based on the individual; though, I do believe the quality control of HRD was incredibly tight at one time, which is verifiable by the abilities of the HRD first generation students. As far as differences and similarities between different Korean martial arts this is how I see it:

Hwa Rang Do: Composed of hard and soft kicks, punches, blocks, locking (praying mantis type), joint locks and breaks, throws, kung fu style forms all integrated into one art; in other words, when you learn each aspect of HRD you are also taught how to flow from one technique into another no matter what category it comes from. If you study Tae Chi and learn the combative interpretations of the movements and you learn HRD you will soon find out the techniques are the same. Kwan Jang Nim Chu taught a style of HRD that more fits the description of Lee Joo Sang with the soft touch that In Huk Sul demonstrates and taught the concept of flowing from hard to soft and soft to hard in a continuous motion. For example, drawing your opponent in with a soft block and then turning the energy around and exploding into your opponent with a hard linear technique. The way the techniques flow between each other are actually in the forms, which is probably difficult for someone from say Hap Ki Do to understand because originally they didn't have forms, what a contrast.

Hap Ki Do: I studied it for a for a few weeks when I lived in a place where I did not have access to a HRD school and the Kwan Jang Nim asked me to leave, refunded all my money and tore up the one year contract I signed because the students where asking me too many questions about techniques. I just wanted to workout with some folks that had similar interests. I went to another Hap Ki Do school and the instructor kept asking me to demonstrate the kicking techniques, I quit because I did not feel right teaching HRD kicking techniques to non HRD students, again no forms or way to fluidly flow between techniques. The little Hap Ki Do I did experience appeared to teach a subset of HRD joint manipulation, throwing and basic kicks as distinct techniques that did not flow together, I am sure it depends on the Hap Ki Do school since the term was used so loosely at one time.

Kuk Sul Won: It is obvious that In Huk Sul and Do Joo Nim Lee have had some kind of relationship in the past, the belt ranking, forms and joint manipulation techniques follow a very similar pattern; all though, HRD has a richer variety of kicking techniques, forms and flows between them much more fluidly. In Huk Su does have a tremendous amount of Ki and displays a much softer version of the techniques then the main stream HRD teachers, more like the soft touch of Kwan Jang Nim Chu.

Tae Kwon Do: Yeah, I studied this also and eventually was only allowed to spare with one guy who was literally a foot taller than me, 5' - 6' against a 6' - 7" person. Very challenging, the only time I came out on top was when he got cocky and tried to grapple with me, needless to say he went down quick. It is very difficult to close the gap on a guy that is a foot taller, very athletic, keeps the distance to his advantage and keeps trying to kick and punch you in the head when you get close; oh yeah, sparing rules only allow kicking and punching above the waist. I really didn't see the similarities between TKD and HRD beyond the first two belts in HRD, it reminded me more of Japanese Karate or a softer version of Tong Soo Do; where as, HRD kicking, grappling and forms remind me more of Chinese Kung Fu and Chin Na crossed with Aiki Jujitsu, even the short forms of HRD follow the tradition of short forms you find in Chinese Kung Fu.

As I stated before, it is easy to debate which is the best martial art; though, I believe it is not the art as much as it is the artist. Look at Bill “super foot” Wallace he perfected three kicks and retired undefeated heavy height champion by knocking people out with his three kicks, execution and timing is everything. What HRD offers is more options to the student and knowledge on how to execute and flow from technique to technique, does this translate into a superior student or martial artist, I don’t know. Remember Bill knocked opponents out with one of three kicks, nothing fancy.

What about conditioning and training? Does practicing several combinations of kicks and punches from various awkward angles improve you coordination; maybe, I have only seen these types of drills in HRD and Northern Shaolin Kung Fu. Do intense drills that make you feel like your going to pass out give you an edge from an endurance standpoint? Does personal instruction from the Kwan Jang Nim of a school insisting that you attempt the same technique thousands of times being corrected every so often by the Kwan Jang Nim make a difference?

So with all this in mind who is Do Joo Nim: He is a man that is considered to be a "National Treasure" to South Korea, which is a pretty impressive resume and testifies to his ability as a martial artist. Do Joo Nim was the first choice for heir to the art of Hap Ki Do and turned it down to be Do Joo Nim of HRD, having much more to offer thru the combination of martial arts he had learned from his diversity of teachers. Like I said, I don't know the history of the break up between the original masters; even though, I would have a greater respect for the leaders of the KMA if they would reconcile their differences, though it is not my place to intercede.

To the point of who is Kwan Jang Nim Corona: If my memory serves me correctly, he studied the Japanese martial arts of Aikido, Aiki Jujitsu, Judo, Karate and Kendo for 10 years under a first generation Aikido Master before becoming a direct live-in student of Do Joo Nim at the young age of 19. There is a tradition in the martial arts where the father does not always teach their children directly and this tradition was followed by Do Joo Nim. Kwan Jang Nim Corona was one of the students Do Joo Nim taught with the specific intent of teaching his children directly, do you think Kwan Jang Nim Corona received the best training possible from a man that is considered to be a "Nation Treasure", based on his expertise in the martial arts? Kwan Jang Nim Corona was taught well beyond his official rank by Do Joo Nim and is one of the highest ranking non Korean Kwan Jang Nim's in the world, I would not take this lightly. The first generation HRD students can testify that the HRD that was originally taught in the US will never be taught today because of potential law suits; even though, the original training techniques produced some of the finest martial artists in the world.

I think it should also be stated that Kwan Jang Nim Corona travels all over the country teaching seminars (or at least he did at one time, I have been out of touch for about 3 years) to martial art schools, law enforcement agencies and military. I remember Kwan Jang Nim Corona looking for wall space to put plaques he received from law enforcement agencies commending him on the training of their officers. On a more personal note, I can also remember officers thanking Kwan Jang Nim Corona for the training they received, indicating that it saved their lives. For example: an officer was attacked by two men who gained possession of his fire arm, the officer used the training he received from Kwan Jang Nim Corona to not only recover his weapon he also subdued both men with only minor injuries to the assailants. I have heard other police officers thank Kwan Jang Nim Corona because he taught them how to subdue a perpetrator while protecting the perpetrator; thus, resulting in a non-controversial arrest.

Kwan Jang Nim Corona is one of HRD’s most dedicated and gifted teachers, even if he is not sanctioned by the WHRDA. His teaching has affected the lives of thousands and he has unselfishly shared his knowledge of the martial arts for many years. He has always shown the utmost patience, knowledge and integrity you would expect from a true master and teacher of the martial arts deserving of the utmost respect. The best testimony of a teacher is the ability of their students and Kwan Jang Nim Corona has left an incredible legacy that is evident by visiting the schools of his students.

I hope this post was not out of line and if any of the HRD older brothers see any errors in this post please feel free to correct them.

Thank you Kwan Jang Nim Corona for being my teacher and older brother in the arts,
Sun Bae

[shesulsa]

Thank you for posting, Sun Bae. It is always good to hear from others who know KJN Corona.

Just for clarification, again - this thread was not initiated to discuss politics that are nobody's business except those whom that business involves. Please give a great martial artist the respect of leaving sleeping dogs lie.

While it is great to know that those who know Master Corona are so very willing to jump to his defense, I do not wish to discuss things that are none of my business on this thread nor anywhere else.

A simple sentence can only be understated: Master Corona's ability, talent and character all speak for themselves. There is no need to beat a dead horse. Those who don't know Master Corona are truly deprived.

Farang

[shesulsa]

Well, we just finished part one of a two-part seminar by Master Corona here in Washington! In fact, I'll be brief because I need some rest before tomorrow!

He is such a charasmatic teacher - he taught a mixed children's class for over two hours and kept all their focus and attention the whole time. It's so cool to watch him teach.

Everybody had a blast - even KSN Carmen Gallino commented on how nice it was to have his teacher in town again.

Mr. Donnelly, do you have any plans to visit the Pacific Northwest sometime in the future?

[shesulsa]

Everybody had a blast - even KSN Carmen Gallino commented on how nice it was to have his teacher in town again.

Mr. Donnelly, do you have any plans to visit the Pacific Northwest sometime in the future?
...or you, GM De Alba?

[Bob D.]

If KJN Corona is still there, give him a warm hello from Me and tricia.
We just got back from San Francisco visiting Dr. Jason Groomer. While there GM DeAlba and his lovely wife took us to an amazing dinner. Great conversation and food!
I've never been to WA. but if a seminar where planned to cover travel........ :)
Bob

[shesulsa]

I'll forward this to KSN Gallino - he will be in contact with KJN today - I hesitate to phone there because I don't want to interrupt anything.

It would be great to have you visit. I hear it's hot there now - hope things cool off for you soon. :)

[The Kai]

We just got back from San Francisco visiting Dr. Jason Groomer. While there GM DeAlba and his lovely wife took us to an amazing dinner. Great conversation and food!

One of the things about GM DeAlba is that he is a class act through and through, as well as a fantastic Martial Artist

[baileywoobaeRK]

I don't know what you all see in KJN Corona, but he is a great martial artist and an awesome person. I have trained with him, have any of you? How can you judge someone without getting to know them first? Isn't that what martial arts is about, learning to control yourself and emotions before making rash, rude, and uncalled for statements? You should all be ashamed!

-Farang

[shesulsa]

Woo Bae, I would encourage you to read this thread more carefully. Indeed there are several of us here who have trained with Master Corona and hold him in very high regard. Those who know him are well aware of his talent, charisma, ability, character...the list goes on. EDIT: In fact, of the 15 users who have posted to this thread, two posted negative and disrespectful comments and one posted neutral comments - the remaining dozen have only had positive things to say, though the conversation does seem to want to steer toward unseeming conversation, much to my dismay. And I must say if we cannot have friendly conversation regarding Master Corona I will ask for the thread to be locked.

Perhaps, if you are interested in defending your master so vociferously on this board, you might care to address those who have spoken negatively about him - not all of us. You can do this by privately messaging the individuals you take issue with, rather than posting blanket statements here.

Grand Master (Kuk Sa Nim) De Alba, SBN Donnelly, KSN Lopez as well as students have weighed in on this thread in defense of Kwan Jang Nim Corona.

Personally, I know Master Corona does not like politics and this thread was never intended to discuss sensitive topics that are none of our business nor events we never witnessed. Others, however, seem to be drawn to the stigma of the KMA - that of being the problem child. Those who would judge someone they do not know are ignorant and deserve no attention, no argument.

Let's all keep our heads and our hearts where they belong, and hold our tongues where necessary out of respect for a great martial artist, eh?

Welcome to the board and happy posting.

Farang,
Son Bae Georgia Ketchmark
CMAAWA

[shesulsa]

SBN Donnelly, please forgive my ignorance - are you currently teaching in AZ?

KSN Lopez - same question?

Respectfully,

G.K.

[Pheonix]

To answer your original question I have worked with KJN Corona once. I was at one of the seminars he did in washington and I learned quite a bit. Though I do wish the seminar were longer so I could have learned more but I am grateful for the time I got to learn from him.

I do believe that the only person that knows me here is Shesulsa.

Farang,
Adam

[shesulsa]

Hey, Adam! Go start a thread in the Meet & Greet introducing yourself!

JKN Ketchmark

[mystic warrior]

I know some people would probably like to strip it of these aspects and reduce it to the same level as boxing or wrestling. I'm not saying people CAN'T do it. I'm just saying I'd rather not have it done around me. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce
But bruce not everyone that is in martial arts feels the same way that you or I do about it.
Truth be told martial arts is not about the arts any more.
It is more about baby sitting kids for people that should have never had kids to begin with. Or how much money I as a teacher can make of my students.
Sorry about the rant.
I am just not happy with the state of martial arts these days.

[shesulsa]

FYI mystic warrior, The user glad2bhere has been banned from these forums so he cannot answer you.

[mystic warrior]

ok

[MichaelPatrick]

Ken Corona is not registered with the World Hwa Rang Do Association as far as I can tell, an as such has no right to claim to be an instructor or HRD, let alone a Master. Check for yourselves:
http://www.hwarangdo.com/blacksash.cgi

He may be a good martial artist, but was not trained by Kuk Sa Nim Doo Joo Nim - the current Grandmaster, nor by any other certifed HRD teacher as far as I can tell. HRD is trademarked and you can't just go and open a a school and call it HRD - good way to get sued.

[MichaelPatrick]

Update - the guy is a fraud. You can see him on http://www.hwarangdo.com/judical.htm ... listed as a WHITE BELT NOT CERTIFIED TO TEACH. I met one of his so called students today and hadn't heard of him so I started digging. Shame on him for still claiming to be an internationally recognized Master in HRD.

[The Last Legionary]

His website seems to say otherwise. http://www.coronasacademy.com/ (http://www.coronasacademy.com/)

Then again, I found this: http://www.hwarang.org/Warning.html (http://www.hwarang.org/Warning.html)

Looks like an ugly family feud. It doesn't belong here.

[jks9199]

My friend,

You do realize that you've resurrected a three-year dead thread? I've only given the thread a quick review -- but it seems like there's a good chance that he's separated from the World Hwa Rang Do Association.

I'm not at all certain that equates to being a fraud.

[shesulsa]

Ken Corona is not registered with the World Hwa Rang Do Association as far as I can tell, an as such has no right to claim to be an instructor or HRD, let alone a Master. Check for yourselves:
http://www.hwarangdo.com/blacksash.cgi

He may be a good martial artist, but was not trained by Kuk Sa Nim Doo Joo Nim - the current Grandmaster, nor by any other certifed HRD teacher as far as I can tell. HRD is trademarked and you can't just go and open a a school and call it HRD - good way to get sued.


Update - the guy is a fraud. You can see him on http://www.hwarangdo.com/judical.htm ... listed as a WHITE BELT NOT CERTIFIED TO TEACH. I met one of his so called students today and hadn't heard of him so I started digging. Shame on him for still claiming to be an internationally recognized Master in HRD.

So ... you are swaggering in here doing one of two things: either you are accusing someone you don't know of something you clearly know very little about, OR you are baiting me and any other non-WHRDA students of this art by posting very inflammatory comments.

My money is on the chance that this is simply bait.

*nibble*

I would ask you, if you were to train with, say, Funakoshi and lived in the dojo, ate, breathed and drank all that he had to teach, forsake all else in life, essentially, and trained with the best of the best of his students as well, received rank from this man several times over for YEARS, made a martial arts movie with his family members and the other same people ... and then one day have a feud of such proportions that you must separate yourself from this clan and go off on your own without recognition of ANY of your accomplishments, your efforts, your devotion - in fact, receive complete disownment and must deal with the utter disgrace of the public notice that you hold NO rank in the clan whatsoever ... does this make YOU a fraud?

Would you then have no right to teach anyone anything?

Would you really be a fraud?

Would your certificates be worthless? Your knowledge? Your experience?

If this were you ... what would you do, exactly?

Perhaps it would do you well to read back on other threads about HRD here, as well as read OTHER webpages on the internet regarding the World Hwa Rang Do Association and the exodus of skilled martial artists at a certain time in recent history. The Last Legionary posted one. You might also want to check out www.dsystem.com (http://www.dsystem.com/).

I think the most respectful and admirable thing a person can do is to quietly go about their business, seeking truth in real people rather than a webpage, perhaps enduring negativity thrust upon them by ridiculous strangers on an internet chat board.

Cheers.

[Miles]

The "judicial" page cited states Mr. Corona was "reduced to white belt in 2001" that implies he was much higher ranked. (Who would care if a yellow belt for instance was "reduced to white belt"? No offense to yellow belts intended)

In the eyes of the WHRDA he has become meaningless (no offense to white belts intended)...but yet the organization STILL feels the need to mention him on their website after 8 years?

I have never met the gentleman, but have heard nothing but good things about him for many years.

An organization may decide it does not recognize the rank it formerly bestowed upon someone. The lack of organizational rank recognition does not mean the person's skills evaporated or were never present in the first place.

[Brian R. VanCise]

Update - the guy is a fraud. You can see him on http://www.hwarangdo.com/judical.htm ... listed as a WHITE BELT NOT CERTIFIED TO TEACH. I met one of his so called students today and hadn't heard of him so I started digging. Shame on him for still claiming to be an internationally recognized Master in HRD.


As you can see it looks like he went his way and their was a falling out. Big deal happens in a lot of organizations.

I am sure he is qualified to teach his particular skill sets. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon6.gif

[Kuk Sa Nim]

So ... you are swaggering in here doing one of two things: either you are accusing someone you don't know of something you clearly know very little about, OR you are baiting me and any other non-WHRDA students of this art by posting very inflammatory comments.

My money is on the chance that this is simply bait.

*nibble*

I would ask you, if you were to train with, say, Funakoshi and lived in the dojo, ate, breathed and drank all that he had to teach, forsake all else in life, essentially, and trained with the best of the best of his students as well, received rank from this man several times over for YEARS, made a martial arts movie with his family members and the other same people ... and then one day have a feud of such proportions that you must separate yourself from this clan and go off on your own without recognition of ANY of your accomplishments, your efforts, your devotion - in fact, receive complete disownment and must deal with the utter disgrace of the public notice that you hold NO rank in the clan whatsoever ... does this make YOU a fraud?

Would you then have no right to teach anyone anything?

Would you really be a fraud?

Would your certificates be worthless? Your knowledge? Your experience?

If this were you ... what would you do, exactly?

Perhaps it would do you well to read back on other threads about HRD here, as well as read OTHER webpages on the internet regarding the World Hwa Rang Do Association and the exodus of skilled martial artists at a certain time in recent history. The Last Legionary posted one. You might also want to check out www.dsystem.com (http://www.dsystem.com/).

I think the most respectful and admirable thing a person can do is to quietly go about their business, seeking truth in real people rather than a webpage, perhaps enduring negativity thrust upon them by ridiculous strangers on an internet chat board.

Cheers.

Wow…I just don’t understand why all of the animosity and accusations of someone this Mr. Patrick (if that's his real name) clearly doesn’t know. This boy obviously didn’t read the whole thread, and is either dumb, ignorant, or mis-informed. Don’t know what the motivation is for attacking a total stranger. (Is he going to attack Bob, Gil and Klaus next?) Man, people sure get brave and cocky behind the anonymity of the internet. Why can’t people just let sleeping dogs lie…

[shesulsa]

Wow…I just don’t understand why all of the animosity and accusations of someone this Mr. Patrick (if that's his real name) clearly doesn’t know. This boy obviously didn’t read the whole thread, and is either dumb, ignorant, or mis-informed. Don’t know what the motivation is for attacking a total stranger. (Is he going to attack Bob, Gil and Klaus next?) Man, people sure get brave and cocky behind the anonymity of the internet. Why can’t people just let sleeping dogs lie…

Oh, sir. If only. When you have time and are *really* bored, please check out the traditional ninjutsu section of the board where the validity of the Bujinkan and Geninkan and other "X-Kans" are debated; it gets quite nasty.

I can't speak for Patrick, but I think the virtual world of the web is larger even than the real world itself; making sense of all the he-said-she-said for the discerning person hasn't really become much easier, by my estimation. Anyone can say anything on a chat board or on a web page. Taking the time to travel and investigate is beyond the means (and probably the desires) of most, though most likely still quite necessary.

I hope you are well.

Farang,

Georgia

[Carol]

Apparently Mr. Corona was wearing his tinfoil hat when the mothership failed to suck knowledge out of his brain :rolleyes:

[Daniel Sullivan]

Apparently Mr. Corona was wearing his tinfoil hat when the mothership failed to suck knowledge out of his brain :rolleyes:
I have had my scalp surgically lined with a tin foil implant for just that reason. I am always safe from such motherships and still sport my stylish coif.

Daniel

[DarkPhoenix]

I have had my scalp surgically lined with a tin foil implant for just that reason. I am always safe from such motherships and still sport my stylish coif.

Daniel


The KKW is sending out spy ships now?!?!? Great!!! That means my dojang is next. Foil hats for everyone!!


Back on topic.

Everything I have read so far about KJN Corona has been positive, except of course on the WHRDA website. I wouldn't pass up an opportunity to train with him if given the chance.

[Humble Student]

Apparently Mr. Corona was wearing his tinfoil hat when the mothership failed to suck knowledge out of his brain :rolleyes:
LOL
that was a good lol

[yorkshirelad]

I'd never heard of Ken Corona before this thread, but after looking at his website, he seems to be a guy who just wants to teach his art. After spending a great deal of time learning his art, along with a great deal of money he has the right to do that. I think that it's appauling that anyone would want to take away his rank or his standing in the art for any reason. You can't take away knowledge and skill. It reminds me of Stalin in Russia, who would not just kill people, but also erase any record of them, including taking their image away in photos. It's damnright insidious.

I was very interested, years ago to learn Hwarangdo after being inspired by some of Mr DeAlba's videos. I was, however living in Ireland at the time and there was no Hwarangdo school to train in. I began training in Sin Moo Hapkido instead and I'm glad I did.

I live just 20 minutes away from World Hwarangdo Headquarters and it seems (by watching utube) that these guys are excellent martial artists. It's just a shame that students have to put up with cult like politics. It's the politics that ruins it for me.

Once again thanks to Mr DeAlba for inspiring my first venture into KMA.

[yorkshirelad]

By the way, if I was Ken Corona and was reduced to white belt, after being a high ranked black belt, I would sue Joo Bang Lee for all the testing fees I'd paid him over the years. Even if I didn't win, it would send a message. Can you imagine a college taking away an earned and bought for degree because of a dispute with the dean, it's ridiculous.

[Bob Hubbard]

It's not uncommon for a martial arts organization to stop recognizing your rank once you stop paying their annual membership fees. It's also not uncommon for them to go back and edit you out of years worth of historical archives, minimize your participation, or eliminate it all together, especially when the parting is sour. I know of 1 that listed all of his peers as "retired" and who had others removed from years of accumulated history, all to make his own star shine that much more. So, it happens.

[Bob Hubbard]

Now that said, I must get "Official".
MartialTalk has a fraud busting policy (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=71377). I suggest it be read.
It'll save our staff from having to ban anyone later I hope.
Thanks.

[yorkshirelad]

Now that said, I must get "Official".
MartialTalk has a fraud busting policy (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=71377). I suggest it be read.
It'll save our staff from having to ban anyone later I hope.
Thanks.
Sorry Bob, i'd forgotten about that. I sometimes just write what's on my mind at the moment and at the time I'm not even aware of the rules. I'm just sick of politics in general. I think we should we should all be able to train, teach and learn without restraints.

[Carol]

Sorry Bob, i'd forgotten about that. I sometimes just write what's on my mind at the moment and at the time I'm not even aware of the rules. I'm just sick of politics in general. I think we should we should all be able to train, teach and learn without restraints.

Don't think that was aimed at you Dom...on the prior page there is a guy that joined martial talk presumably for the purpose of resurrecting a 3 year old thread and calling Mr. Corona a fraud. :troll:

[Bob Hubbard]

Sorry Bob, i'd forgotten about that. I sometimes just write what's on my mind at the moment and at the time I'm not even aware of the rules. I'm just sick of politics in general. I think we should we should all be able to train, teach and learn without restraints.
Not aimed at anyone in particular, just a reminder to all that this isn't the site for fraud busting. We've got no problem with people being curious, seeking clarification, etc. :)

[miguksaram]

Wow…I just don’t understand why all of the animosity and accusations of someone this Mr. Patrick (if that's his real name) clearly doesn’t know. This boy obviously didn’t read the whole thread, and is either dumb, ignorant, or mis-informed. Don’t know what the motivation is for attacking a total stranger. (Is he going to attack Bob, Gil and Klaus next?) Man, people sure get brave and cocky behind the anonymity of the internet. Why can’t people just let sleeping dogs lie…

Perhaps he will go after you next KSN. :) I found the posting from Patrick to be funny at best. Ignorance is the unwritten 8th deadly sin.

Patrick, my words of advice to you is do not believe the hype of a one sided argument. Before you accuse ANYONE of being a fraud you should go train with them. I have had the distinct honor of training under one of these "frauds" or "demoted" members as they list on that site; GM DeAlba. His innovations on the Hwarang arts is second to none. So please educate yourself a bit more before speaking.