tapi-tapi experimentation

[arnisandyz]

Tonight I was practicing the basic left on right tapi-tapi drills with my partner and we discovered something. Perhaps someone can tell me if this has already been discovered and/or part of your ciriculum... I'll try to explain it best I can. Typically in left on right tapi-tapi the left hander is the driver, well, we switched it so the right hander is the driver too (still left on right). So all it is, is a mirror image of each other. What this allows is both of you to work on the same drill one after the other taking turns on "driving". It also allows you to switch weapon hands in flow and do the drills on the other side. As simple as it sounds, it really open a whole new door of possiblities. We also explored "taking the wheel"...The left hand does the typical break in with the punyo but instead of passing and hitting back with the punyo (the way the drill is suppose to be done) we just take the stick off the first beat and iniatiate the action (now that we can drive on the right!!). What seemed to happen was were were both thinking of attacking and sometimes they blended into another creating a new sequence. It definately keeps you on the alert. If you've never tried it, give it a shot, it will blow your mind the first time and you'll be wondering what you just did!

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Since Remy started teaching the L vs R I've been driving with both hands. Many people would argue with me on this point. We do everything else both sides why not this.

Many people forgot Remy was a lefty. That's why he made that part of the drill. Since I'm a righty I do the drill right handed first then left.

When I ask people "If your a righty wouldn't you attack me right handed?", they would just look at me with a question mark on thier foreheads and thier mouth wide open.

It's good to see that other people can think for themselves too.

:soapbox: :cheers:

Sorry if anyone thinks this is harsh. If you know me personally you would know that this is a BAD topic for me.

[arnisandyz]

Salamat Mr Hartman!!!

We were very happy to find this, and even happier that it works! I don't see how anyone can argue with you the benifits of doing both sides. I myself am a lefty, and I initiated it. Not only does it work my right side, it actually makes the drill come alive and more spontanious as you have no idea who is the agressor.

We also did this empty hand in a wing chun flow (I think they call it bong sao???) your left elbow to partners right elbow and roll and catch backhands and switching to the other side and it worked beatifully!!!

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Originally posted by arnisandyz

Salamat Mr Hartman!!!

We were very happy to find this, and even happier that it works! I don't see how anyone can argue with you the benifits of doing both sides. I myself am a lefty, and I initiated it. Not only does it work my right side, it actually makes the drill come alive and more spontanious as you have no idea who is the agressor.

You know, monkey see, monkey do.


We also did this empty hand in a wing chun flow (I think they call it bong sao???) your left elbow to partners right elbow and roll and catch backhands and switching to the other side and it worked beatifully!!!

Remy did the same drill in the early 80's. Like my friend says "It's all nuts and bolts".

[Bob Hubbard]

To me, doing things on both sides makes for tactical sence. Your 'strong' side may be injured or worse, so having the flexibilty to work both just seems "right" to me. no pun intended. :)

Course, its a bit harder to work the less dominent side, but practice makes perfect (or in my case lowers the brain-fart factor) :)


:asian:

[Cthulhu]

Of course you know, arnisandyz...you guys have to show this to me now ;)

I've been meaning to ask you guys to go over Tapi-Tapi again anyway.

Cthulhu

C-ya Friday (I hope!)

[KumaSan]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz

...practice makes perfect...

We like to say "practice makes habit". Only perfect practice makes perfect habits.

So this is what the inside of the Modern Arnis forums looks like...

edit: I can't spell.

[Bob Hubbard]

Habits are good. I had a conversation today with someone on the effectivness of martial arts training. His comment was in a streetfight, you go back to instinct, and his experience was plain ol "fistfight'n" was what happens. Mine was "I doubt a guy like Chuck Noris, or anyone else who 'lives' it would do that" The idea being its become instinct and habit.

Oh, and I cant spell either. :)

I recently had the pleasure of watching several Tapi-Tapi drills... or rather 'trying to' as they were moving pretty fast. Was definately educational, to say the least, with a nice amount of aestetics. :)

:asian:

[Guro Harold]

Cool!! I have been reversing the L Vs. R roles for about a year now. Block-Check-Counter and Block-Check-Counter-Counter works well with these combinations as well:

R vs R
L vs L
L vs R
R vs L

Palusut

Yo FCS guys, try the Six Count Drill that Ray teaches left verses right, it makes it very interesting.

Palusut

[Mao]

I have also been switching from L to R for some years now. This can be done in a plethora of ways. (do you know what that means Renegade? :p ) I'm not hiding behind that smile either. This is one way that you can change who the driver is. This is also one place where it sort of becomes less of a drill as it is not an "agreed " upon sequence. It becomes more of a corto range combat. A few ways to do this is during the "box" pattern, during a snake or wrap, after many of the "locks". Its great explore. That's exactly what Remy wanted us to do. When you begin to think like this, outside the box, your growing. GREAT! ;)

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Originally posted by Mao

Its great explore. That's exactly what Remy wanted us to do. When you begin to think like this, outside the box, your growing. GREAT! ;)

To bad more people don't think this way. I remeber too many times other black belts trying to tell me or my students that ONLY the lefty drives. Of course we never paid much attention to those people. Unfortunatly one of them claims to be a grand master now.

:samurai: :flame:

[Guro Harold]

Originally posted by Renegade



To bad more people don't think this way. I remeber too many times other black belts trying to tell me or my students that ONLY the lefty drives. Of course we never paid much attention to those people. Unfortunatly one of them claims to be a grand master now.

:samurai: :flame:

Though I have only studied MA for four years, it appears to me that anyone who thinks that only lefties should drive obviously hasn't cane sparred. Heck if I spar a natural lefty with my left hand!!!:eek:

[arnisandyz]

Something else we've been playing with is double baston 3 and 5 count sombrada box pattern, inserting a lefthand strike in place of the "programmed" right hand. It doesn't mess your partner up too much as it is still the same angle of attack, just a different hand feeding it. You can do either hand pretty much anywhere, but it really gets interesting when you reverse the direction of flow....I love this stuff!!! I am sure others with open minds have tried this as well.

[Brian Johns]

Mao and I have been playing with different variations of tapi tapi for awhile and we're always finding new things and new variations of basic tapi tapi patterns. It's better to learn on your own than to be spoon fed tapi tapi techniques from other folks. Obviously, we will all be inspired by other's innovations with respect to tapi tapi and that's the fun part of camps and seminars......to see the latest developments. I have found that the best tapi tapi players are those who have extremely strong fundamentals with regard to body positioning, stances and footwork. Without these elements, your tapi tapi will be crappy crappy. If you have these fundamentals, you'll be happy happy.:fart:

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!

WhoopAss.

[Mao]

Well,
after spewing all that humor you probably need a napy napy. :rolleyes: I know that was sappy sappy. :p

[Bob Hubbard]

Oh man...those puns were really nasty-nasty. :D

[Dieter]

Hi,

interesting thread.
The Professor taught Tapi-Tapi in a very systematical manner here in Germany.
He started off with right to right and only at the 2nd or 3dr seminar he starded to teach the left to right. Taking that into account, it is of course nonsense, that only the right hand is driving, as you call it. We call it leading or dominating.

It is of course nice for practice, that you change the driver during the drill, at least for getting both into the exercise, but I disagree, that it really is the idea of the Tapi-Tapi. Just to back this up: Did anybody see, that somebody ever tried or even took the lead of Remy during the Tapi-Tapi? He was always very much in control during the drill. Everybody who ever did it with him knows. I think for him it was about how to control the opponent. If you agree on that, it does not make sense, that you change the driver during the drill, because you are being controlled then.

So we try to execute the techniquews in a way, that you don´t give your partner the chance to take the lead, i.e. we try to dominate him, so he can only follow.
I try to give the following picture: When you are leading, you lead your partner into a room. When you disarm him or make a takedown, so that the Tapi cannot be continued, the room has no doors. But you want the drill to continue, so you give him one possiblility, how he can react to your moove. You open ONE door for him to get out of the room. If there is only one door, you know, which room is the next. This means, that you know which technique he will use as a counter and there you have him in the next room, where you will give him again only one sensible possible answer to your technique.
When you give him many possiblities, i.e. different doors to get to another room, he can choose which one he will take. Then it is much more difficult if not impossible, to keep up the domination.

This of course is the aim and there are other possibilities to practice the Tapi-Tapi, but that is our premium goal.


For anybody who is interested: I have produced a video about the Tapi-Tapi.
Over 90 minutes only Tapi-Tapi, whith many techniques right to right and left to right. I am sure, very interesting and informing for all serious Modern Arnis practitioners who are interested in the Tapi-Tapi.
I can deliver it in german and english, PAL (European TV System) as well as in in NTSC (amercan TV system), so vou can watch and understand it, wherever you live.

If you are interested, just go to my homepage:

http://www.abanico.de

then to the english pages and then click on the Modern Arnis button at the left side. There you can read more about the Tapi-Tapi video, see the cover and all the other Modern Arnis videos I have produced.

If you have any questions, feel free to contact me either here through the forum or at

datu@modern-arnis.de

Best regards from Germany


Datu Dieter Knüttel

[Dieter]

Hi,

I have just added a 30 second Tapi-Tapi clip from our Modern Arnis exhibition at the FMA-Festival.
It is 2 MB large and an .mpg file.

If you go to

http://www.abanico.de/html_e/index_e.html

you are straight on the english pages. Then only one click on the Modern Arnis button at the left side and then you find it right below the description of the Tapi-Tapi video.

I hope you enjoy it and I would appreciate comments what you think of it.


Best regards from Germany

Datu Dieter Knüttel

[arnisandyz]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dieter
It is of course nice for practice, that you change the driver during the drill, at least for getting both into the exercise, but I disagree, that it really is the idea of the Tapi-Tapi. Just to back this up: Did anybody see, that somebody ever tried or even took the lead of Remy during the Tapi-Tapi? He was always very much in control during the drill. Everybody who ever did it with him knows. I think for him it was about how to control the opponent. If you agree on that, it does not make sense, that you change the driver during the drill, because you are being controlled then.


It is one thing for the Proffesor, but not many have his touch. I think trying to steal the lead not only helps the person trying to steal, but also the driver, for if his techniques were correct and he was dominating and leading properly, he would not have lost the lead in the first place. It can also teach what happens when things go wrong, what if they don't go for your bait the way you want them to? what if the flow is lost or what if your planning on grabbing their stick, but they grab yours as well.

In short, I can only hope and wish that i can dominate half as good as the proffessor did, but I would still like to know how to defend should I lose the lead. On the other side (the person not driving) I don't want to be dominated and would like to find openings were the lead can be stolen.

[Mao]

I was at a camp where Remy asked another guy to "go hard" with me, without my knowing it until afterword. During this "test" I was trying to change into the drivers spot in a number of ways. Without going into the whole exchange, afterwords I suggested that I was doing the right thing as far as stealing the lead. It was suggested to me that this was not how the game was played. Whoopass andItalkedbout this at the camp and Whoop asked the Prof. how one takes the lead. Remy told him that "you must counter". Of course this can be done in many ways. Changing hands is just one of them, but it is a very viable way to get it done. The idea, in my mind, is NOT to be dominated,so one has to respond in a way to change this. Agreed? So then, we come back to changing hands as being a good thing during non agreed upon sequences, or even agreed upon for that matter. I think it is a matter of what works for you and the position your in and the energy being given.

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Originally posted by Dieter

Did anybody see, that somebody ever tried or even took the lead of Remy during the Tapi-Tapi?

I did. I would try to enter all of the time. The drill was meant to teach us how to take charge. If you have a dominent partner, you get few chances to lead. This is why you didn't see anyone lead with him. The other reason is that in front of everyone while he was instructing, your job was to follow. On the side when no one was looking was a different story.

The last time Remy taught in Buffalo, Kevin Black was working with Remy and I on some variations of the drill. Remy started up with Kevin in the left on right mode. Out of nowhere Kevin enters from the right hand side. Remy looks up at the punyo that is paused inches from his temple and just starts laughing like a proud father. We then started talking about Balintawak as he continued to teach us.

Tapi-tapi is the closest thing to sparring that Modern Arnis does in a drill form. We are playing a friendly game of tag. It is where we lay it on the line short of real combat.

That's all for now.

:jediduel: :asian:

[Dan Anderson]

Re: Dieter's quote in Renegade's post -
Sure. It usually got reversed on us.
Dan Anderson

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Originally posted by Dan Anderson

Re: Dieter's quote in Renegade's post -
Sure. It usually got reversed on us.
Dan Anderson

Yep, it didn't last more than a second, two if you were lucky.

[Brian Johns]

Whoopass and I talkedbout this at the camp and Whoop asked the Prof. how one takes the lead. Remy told him that "you must counter". Of course this can be done in many ways. Changing hands is just one of them, but it is a very viable way to get it done. The idea, in my mind, is NOT to be dominated,so one has to respond in a way to change this.

Yes, indeed, I did talk to the Professor about this very topic. He and I talked about tapi tapi over breakfast and I specifically asked him about how one takes the lead in tapi tapi. I asked him that in light of happened between Mao and another Modern Arnis player. I was a bystander and I just had to ask the Professor how to deal with a driver. His simple answer was that you must look for the openings and counter. While this may seem fairly obvious, the thrust of what the Professor was saying to me was that the most effective counters did not come from brute strength but rather through brains, finesse, body positioning, and angling. I have to admit that I'm not an expert tapi tapi player and have A LOT to learn. I just have to go out and practice.

WOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!:D

[Brian Johns]

He started off with right to right and only at the 2nd or 3dr seminar he starded to teach the left to right. Taking that into account, it is of course nonsense, that only the right hand is driving, as you call it. We call it leading or dominating.

This is interesting. From my experience, the Professor first taught left vs. right tapi tapi. Then we progressed to right vs. right tapi tapi. My introduction to tapi tapi was the left vs. right. It was awhile before I progressed to right vs. right tapi tapi. So I would think that the way to teach tapi tapi is to teach it the way the Professor taught it. Of course, once you have the basics of the Left vs. right tapi tapi, and the right vs. right tapi tapi, you can then explore and do other variations of tapi tapi (as pointed out by Palasut). But, in my opinion, you can't become proficient in tapi tapi if you do it willy nilly. I think that you have to have a strong foundation with the left vs. right tapi tapi as well as the right v. right tapi tapi. Once you learn to take the lead in those situations, you can then branch out to the other tapi tapi variations.

Just my own humble WhoopAss opinion:drinkbeer


WOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Actually the drill starts out right on right. The left on right has only been around since about 1998. Right on right was in the first tape series and was called solo baston single cane sparring.

[Rich Parsons]

Hi All,

Very good thread here!

The first time I heard about Tapi-Tapi
I was confused by the name, and then when I saw
that it was 'Single cane sparring' as the name
taught to me, I said I can try this ;~).

As for the off hand, well if yo have ever trained
someone with a close head injury or some other
head injury then many times they have problems
learning. But I have found that to get them to
move and to use their off side, improves their
overall quality of life. That is to say that the
student not only learns the art and the technique
one is trying to teach them, but in their normal
life they improve as a whole. Now this is a
limited sample size of three, but all three have
had improvements.

Just my comments ;~)

BTW - The best invention of the 20th century was
the spell checker. :rofl:

Enjoy your training I know I do

Rich

:asian:

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Renegade

Right on right was in the first tape series and was called solo baston single cane sparring.

Still one of my favorite drills--I actually start people with solo baston rather than the numerada (though I do numerada from day one also).

[Brian Johns]

Actually the drill starts out right on right. The left on right has only been around since about 1998. Right on right was in the first tape series and was called solo baston single cane sparring.

I've seen that on the first tape series. However, I just want to note for the record that the first time I learned tapi tapi was left vs. right. It was awhile before I got to the right v. right version of tapi tapi. As I said earlier, I'm no expert on tapi tapi but I do know enough from my experience that one must really understand the basics of left v. right and the right v. right before you get into the counters/taking the lead etc. If I'm teaching a student left on right tapi tapi, it's imperative that the student understand it without you messing him/her by constantly countering. Let that student be the driver. Let him develop that left hand.

From what I can see, tapi tapi is not merely a collection of techniques or a drill strung together willy nilly. I see tapi tapi as the major concept of counter for counter. Heck, that's basically what the Professor covered in camps and seminars in his last few years.

For whatever it's worth.

WOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!:)

[Dan Anderson]

Yes, it is a good thread. Don't show it to Kodai.

Back in the ancient days when I had hair, I too, learned tapi-tapi right on right first. Back then it was just another counter to counter drill and not the cane sparring drill it is called today. Cane sparring was its (and I feel it is still) own entity.

One should understand that tapi-tapi is a subdivision of a series of drills which all comprise the counter to counter series. Equally important are the original 4 count flow drill, the give and take, the 6 count (what others call the 6 count box drill) and expanded 6 count and the cane sparring sequences (both R/R and L/R). The entire set of drills give one the ability to counter and in short, not be surprised by what you partner does. This is thoroughly covered (oh, oh! Shameless plug time!) in my next ebook, Advanced Modern Arnis - A Road To Mastery. I'll have it at Buffalo camp in May.

Dan Anderson :D
PS - Pretty sneaky about the book plug, eh? :asian:

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Originally posted by Dan Anderson


PS - Pretty sneaky about the book plug, eh? :asian:

I saw it coming.

[Dan Anderson]

You got eyes in the back of your head, son.

Dan

:cheers:

[Mao]

I have seen new students shown both ways at different times, L v. L, R v. L. . I think that, as Whoophiney said, it is important for the beginner to have a good strong foundation in the basics. I think that the "traditionals" serve this purpose well. Get them used to handling a cane in first place. Renegade, that would be a RATTAN cane, not their third cane so to speak. :p

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Originally posted by Mao

Renegade, that would be a RATTAN cane, not their third cane so to speak. :p

Dude, stop talking about my cane! You're scaring me!

[Mao]

I'm wearing my feather boa. Wanna see?? :D

[Bob Hubbard]

As a slightly humorous aside... that would be interesting to watch... 2 guys, going at Tapi-Tapi at full speed, with boas spinning in the breeze. :eek:

So, foundations. Where are they? (and don't say the book by Asimov) Are they derived from the basic stick drills, or are there specific drills that lead to Tapi-Tapi?

:asian:

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Originally posted by Mao

I'm wearing my feather boa. Wanna see?? :D


La, La, La, I can't hear you!:erg:

[Mao]

Renn., I'll still be here when you stop humming! :p

As for how to get into the tapi tapi thing. It can be bred off of the "block, check , counter" drill. Instead of block, check, counter, make it block, check, tapi tapi. I hope that makes sense. It can also be bred off of the various striking styles. From block, check, pick your striking style to block, check, use the striking style movement to flow into tapi tapi movements. Make sense? There are many other ways to get there as well. "You must explore", "You have it already", "It is all dee same", "You got it?", "Could you do dat, I would like to see you do dat". Man, I miss that.

[Brian Johns]

One should understand that tapi-tapi is a subdivision of a series of drills which all comprise the counter to counter series. Equally important are the original 4 count flow drill, the give and take, the 6 count (what others call the 6 count box drill) and expanded 6 count and the cane sparring sequences (both R/R and L/R).

I have to respectfully disagree here. The Professor repeatedly said that Tapi Tapi was the heart of the art of Modern Arnis and everything he did in seminars and camps in the last few years of his life were all focused on tapi tapi. As a matter of fact, the 15 tape series that he made a year and a half before his death focused quite a bit on tapi tapi. Most important, he conferred the title of Master of Tapi Tapi upon several people, which is an indication of the importance that Professor placed on Tapi Tapi. I think that it's safe to say that Professor definitely did not consider tapi tapi to be a "subdivision of a series of drills." Furthermore, Professor really did not consider tapi tapi to be a drill. He considered it to be a CONCEPT. In addition to stick tapi tapi, there was also empty handed tapi tapi.

Bottom line, the Professor considered tapi tapi to be the heart of the art in his last few years. It's basically all he emphasized in the last few years.

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!:soapbox:

:asian:

[Mao]

Bdion baby, you got it! Dat was beautiful!

I think that the flavor of things for those who were not often able to be at camps for some years, (hows that for tact?) would be a little different than for those who frequented these events for the last several years. There was increasing emphasis on tapi tapi in the last several years. Remy had said that many people were not ready for it years ago. I didn't say this, Remy did. Don't shoot the messenger. I believe that those who could get their minds around it got to work it. Remy was very good at guaging the crowd and making sure that everybody got something they needed. As has been said, modern arnis was an evolving style.

[Brian Johns]

Mac,

That was berri good !! Bring it on brother !!

On a more serious vein, Mao is right. Those who were not at the camps or the seminars in the last several years may have an understanding of what tapi tapi is about but may not understand just how central it was to the Professor's approach to Modern Arnis in the last several years. As I said earlier, he basically elevated it to the point where it was the "heart of the art" (Professor's words, not mine).

WOOOOOO !!!

:D

[Dan Anderson]

Dear Whoop and Mao,
Major disagreement here on tapi-tapi was the heart of the art. Take a look at tapi-tapi as a concept and you have counter for counter. However, the drill tapi-tapi is just that, a drill.

I had been with Prof. Presas for 22 years up to his death. If you review his earlier material, what he calls tapi-tapi now was cane sparring in the past. Yes, people were not ready for it but at the same time, he hadn't come up with a method for teaching it. Prof. Presas was not a scientific, analytical man with a scientific methodology for teaching. He was a master of motion and worked over the years in his presentation of what he could do. When he finally figured it out, he taught it.

Now as far as the current students who have been taught tapi-tapi without a thorough grounding in the basics (including the other drills I mentioned in my last post in this thread), if you break the pattern you'll throw them off, big time. I did this with one of the MOTTs a while back. Trust me on this one, I know of what I speak.

Now, before Kodai or some other knucklehead states that I am contradicting Prof. Presas or setting myself up as the current source point for "correct" Modern Arnis, I am not. However, regarding his stating that tapi-tapi was the heart of his art, he said the same thing about the flow and making the connection in years past.

One thing Prof. Presas was very good at was marketing his art so that it was continually fresh and new. (Hoo boy am I going to get some people pissed at me here!) I remember all the ground fighting techniques that surfaced date coincident with the rise of popularity of the UFC. So has it been with the current emphasis on tapi-tapi.

Any of you who have who have seminar tapes of Prof. Presas over the years will notice that his basics remain the same throughout the years. His flow, his making the connnection, his tapi-tapi remained the same (I'm not talking about his skill at them - that rose). His students did not. We got better so that he could elevate the teaching. Ask any of the old timers of Modern Arnis. It's true. All for now. I expect to hear from some of you about this.
Yours,
Dan Anderson :D

[Mao]

Not as much disagreement as you think. We agree that students need a strong foundation in the basics. There has been some disagreement as to the "activeness" of some people. I didn't start that one. In one sense tapi tapi can be considered a drill, in another sense no it's not. The diff. may lie in the approach. From a close, or corto range combat perspective, many parts of tapi tapi are not a drill, thats where the fight is. From a lock flow or bait and counter or counter counter or whatever you wanna call it perspective, yeah it can be a drill. The fact is that Remy himself said that it was the heart of the art in the last several years. That was his emphasis. He had evolved, on that we agree also. Evolution does not negate previous reality, it changes the present one. We also agree on the Professors ability to guage the crowd. I also know of a MOTT who spanked a higher ranking guy. So? If your practicing tapi tapi from a drilling perspective and then change things midstream I can see how one can be thrown off. If your practicing free form, for lack of a better term, There would be a BIG difference. One more thing, not all the MOTTS are at the same tapi tapi skill level. The one doing "his own thing" comes to mind. That a whole other can 'o worms.
You probably will hear from people on this because there will be differing opinions. We agree on this too. There are alot of points of agreement here. Mayhap we could concentrate on some of those. I don't expect to change anyones opinion who believes themselves to be educated on the subject. My cup isn't that full and I'm not that arrogant.

[Brian Johns]

<<<<Major disagreement here on tapi-tapi was the heart of the art. Take a look at tapi-tapi as a concept and you have counter for counter. However, the drill tapi-tapi is just that, a drill.>>>>

Professor himself said that tapi tapi was the heart of the art. Those were his words, not mine. One must differentiate between drills and the concept of tapi tapi. For the Professor, the concept of tapi tapi permeated the entire art in the last several years of his life. The man did tapi tapi everywhere......in airports, in hotel rooms, in restaurants. Empty handed tapi tapi. Even newspaper tapi tapi. I know....Mao and I did empty handed tapi tapi with Professor over meals when we had him in town for seminars. The man lived, ate, breathed, walked, talked, slept tapi tapi. It was the heart of the art, according to Professor.

From what you indicated in your message, there may not be much of a disagreement. Yes, he developed drills to help develop the concept of tapi tapi.....such as the block check counter drills and various other drills etc. These drills were designed by Professor to learn the CONCEPT of tapi tapi. Tapi tapi can be applied to any drill contained in Modern Arnis. You name it, Professor had a tapi tapi version of it. I know that he changed a lot of things in the mid 1990's and shifted the focus of his teaching to teaching tapi tapi.

You and I may not agree on whether tapi tapi is the heart of the art. But the fact of the matter is that the Professor considered it as such in the last few years. There is a heavy emphasis on it on his last tape series. Then there's the creation of the MOTTs.

As for the rest of your message, as Mao said, there may not be much disagreement. I agree that a strong foundation in the basics will make for strong tapi tapi skills. I agree that the counter for counter is a concept within the art of Modern Arnis. There may be a few areas of agreement here.

I think that the area of disagreement lies over the term "tapi tapi is the heart of the art." Professor's words, not mine nor Mao's or the MOTTs. Professor's words. In any case, his teaching methodology over the last few years was to teach tapi tapi.

WOOOOOOOOOO!!!:boing1:

[Mao]

Concurance here. It looks as though, as Whoop sais, the discrepency is in "the heart of the art" thing. I sounds like we all agree on the concept vs. drill topic. Eh? Whoopass and I started to do some tapi tapi in the airport recently. It drew some interesting looks and even a comment from one guy "what is that". Boy did he set himself up. Good thing that we aren't mean. I must say that I was a little self concious. I think that the next time we'll find some stiffer newspaper and rock till someone calls for help! Waddya think Smellyass? :eek:

[Brian Johns]

It drew some interesting looks and even a comment from one guy "what is that". Boy did he set himself up. Good thing that we aren't mean. I must say that I was a little self concious. I think that the next time we'll find some stiffer newspaper and rock till someone calls for help! Waddya think Smellyass?

Yeah that was an interesting experience. Too bad that we had small weeny magazines to work with. Yes, we must use rolled up newspapers and scare the hell out of airport security by rocking and rolling. "If you touch me, I'll funish you !!":)
I was self conscious as well. But what the heck, we had a few things to iron out tapi tapi wise. The plane was late, so what the hell ?

WOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

[Dan Anderson]

Dear Mao and Whoopass,
You duplicated the intent of my communication. We sound like a couple of guys sitting around drinking a couple of cold ones rather than getting pissed on the subject. Thanks.
Dan :cheers:

[Mao]

Dan A.,
I'm glad you see it that way! I'd rather be drinking a pop together than spitting at each other. I like good, interesting, honest, friendly discussions anyway. :wavey:

[Brian Johns]

Well, well, aren't we all getting along here just beautifully ? :)

WOOOOOOO!!!!!:rofl:

[Mao]

Yeah, we are! Our parents would be proud! It's much nicer this way than another way that happened recently. I refer to the su.ko. thing. Glad that seems to be over.

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Dan Anderson

If you review his earlier material, what he calls tapi-tapi now was cane sparring in the past. Yes, people were not ready for it but at the same time, he hadn't come up with a method for teaching it.

I agree. Solo baston was always cane sparring and the Professor was always doing tapi-tapi in it. He has been tieing me up since at least the late 1980s. I didn't know what it was--I remember asking Mr. Hartman what that technique was where he ended by tieing up both my arms with both his and my stick then striking me in the face--but he was doing it, and it was in solo baston. He also frequently did it L on R and we knew that we should be practicing that too. I think that Mr. Anderson is dead-on--the Professor wasn't ready to teach this material at the time. I must also agree that there was a marketing/momentum issue for the Professor--I'm sure he wanted something new and different to keep focus on his art. This is not necessarily a bad thing.



However, regarding his stating that tapi-tapi was the heart of his art, he said the same thing about the flow and making the connection in years past.

Yup. The flow was the heart of the art for some time, and also making the connections/it's all the same. How many times did I hear flow, Flow, FLOW! at camps and seminars?



Any of you who have who have seminar tapes of Prof. Presas over the years will notice that his basics remain the same throughout the years. His flow, his making the connnection, his tapi-tapi remained the same

Yes! I absolutely agree. He was doing the same things all along, but presented them in stages (for whatever reasons). I don't see tapi-tapi as the culmination--I see it as Mr. Anderson does, one of the main aspects of the Professor's method and teachings.

Let's see--he said at various times that (at least) three different things were the heart of the art, which was the art within your art. Could he have meant that these three concepts were all very important, and that each of us must draw from them what we need?

He's been doing tapi-tapi to me, and much more to Mr. Hartman in front of me, for as long as I've known him. It's now been presented in great detail, but it was always there. It's a part of the art; perhaps its a heart of the art; but I'm not ready to say that it's the heart of the art, to the exclusion of other important concepts. In fact, I understand that there are a number of Modern Arnis instructors who teach the art as though it was all tapi-tapi, and I think that that's too bad.

[arnisandyz]

but I'm not ready to say that it's the heart of the art, to the exclusion of other important concepts. In fact, I understand that there are a number of Modern Arnis instructors who teach the art as though it was all tapi-tapi, and I think that that's too bad. [/B][/QUOTE]

Perhaps the Professor did not teach the Tapi-Tapi early on to be sure the students had the basics. It is easy to be lured into the attachment of Tapi-Tapi and loose site of the basics of footwork, angulation, etc. As someone has stated before, the best people at Tapi-Tapi are the ones who understand the basics and incorporate them into the drill. Not to be disrespectful to MA, but I have seen several MA folks who are very good with the hands and trapping skills, but are standing toe to toe with no footwork. In addition, they tend to crash in on straight line to grab the stick rather than see opportunities in all ranges or using footwork to get them to the desired range. These could be the type that Arnisador spoke about being ALL tapi-tapi. They have a piece of the puzzle.

[Bob Hubbard]

Maybe a key word here is "Heart".

Is it the "heart" as in soul of the art?
or
"Heart" as in the core of the art?
or
"Heart" as in the original ideas of the art?

Maybe the key to understanding the meaning is to ask," what it it to me?"

Somehow tied into where you were at when you first learned it, and where GM was at that time too?

(hopefully this makes sence, I've got a wicked migrane today. focus bad)

:asian:

[arnisandyz]

It is my opinion (take it for what its worth:confused: ) that Tapi-Tapi is not the heart, or soul, or core of Modern Arnis, but a drill designed to hone much sought after attributes (fill in the blank). It is similar to sombrada box pattern, largo drills, palisut, hubud, knife tapping, chi sao, pushhands or any other drills. The individual is far more important than the drill being performed. All patterns are meant to be broken, not memorized for the long term. We need to go through the motions and learn it and feel it so we can forget it and break it. The ones that can do this and free themselves from the drill have achieved what the drill was intended for. The ones that don't get it, get good at a drill.

[Cthulhu]

Originally posted by arnisandyz

We need to go through the motions and learn it and feel it so we can forget it and break it. The ones that can do this and free themselves from the drill have achieved what the drill was intended for. The ones that don't get it, get good at a drill.

So the stuff I accidentally come up with doesn't count as this since I'm still trying to learn the dang drill anyway? :)

Cthulhu

[arnisador]

Originally posted by arnisandyz

It is my opinion (take it for what its worth:confused: ) that Tapi-Tapi is not the heart, or soul, or core of Modern Arnis, but a drill designed to hone much sought after attributes (fill in the blank).

OK, I will (fill in the blank, that is)! To my mind one of the most amazing things the Professor ever did was stand toe-to-toe with a person and calmly, smoothly, but quickly reach in and grab your stick! After that the tieing-up was incidental to my mind. The attribute I see here is the aliveness of the live hand--fully integrating it rather than just giving lip-service to the idea that the live hand is important. It's that ability to put the live hand in action in corto range (which is where I like to be).

I wish I could disagree with your comments about footwork and Modern Arnis players, but I know just what you mean.

[Mao]

It appears that we are, for the most part, saying the same things. Body positioning is important. Footwork is important. Basics are very important. The emphasis on tapi tapi became more important in Remy's last several years. There are those who teach, anymore, like tapi tapi is all there is. We agree on all this. so LETS PLAY! :duel: :jedi1: :angel:

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Mao

It appears that we are, for the most part, saying the same things. Body positioning is important. Footwork is important. Basics are very important.

I think you're right Mao. I can't argue with your summary. All these things are important and all need to be tied together in the long run if we ever hope to move like the Professor did. None of us will ever achieve that, I suspect, but it's a goal.


so LETS PLAY!

Driving back from Buffalo yesterday it looked for a while as though we'd be spending the night in Columbus. I was thinking I might stop by your school if I did! But we were making good time and pushed on.

[Mao]

Hey, that would've been great! It would have been a pleasure to have met you. Perhaps another time.
Yesterday in 1959, the great and mighty MAO was born and the world was a better place! :p

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Mao

Yesterday in 1959, the great and mighty MAO was born and the world was a better place!

Happy belated birthday Mao!

[Mao]

Thank you. :asian: