Here's a tough question with no one answer.

What is the ultimate indicator of a martial art's effectivness?:confused:

I know I can't answer that easily for myself.. So here is another question....
You are in a bar. A fight breaks out and you're in it. It starts standing he kicks you kick he moves in you clinch after moving around you go to the ground, you're rolling around and suddenly he kicks you off and gets up to grab a beer bottle. he breaks it and is swinging at you , you find a position fianlly where you can get a pool cue and you reattack him.

No outcome described... Just a question. How many different fights were you in ? what if his buddies came in to make it two on one. Again. How many fights were you in ? What KInd.

I believe that the most effective art gives the fighter these skills...
to fight from kicking range and move to boxing, to fight in the trapping/clinching range and go to the ground to be able to fight there. If a weapon comes to understand how it works and be able to fight witrh a weapon. Flow from range to range, adapt to all varribles and not find yourself in unfamilure territory. This at least is my long answer to a short direct question.

The above answer is 6 different fights and 7 with the buddies

Miller

...but what the hell:)

Ultimate effectiveness as a martial artist? To be able to defeat any and all opponents in the least amount of time, regardless of environmental conditions, weapons, size, whatever, but never get into a situation where these skills would be needed.

As a parallel, I'll relate a little story, and I'm sure most of you have heard variants on the story's theme. However, it's my nickel, so you sit and listen! :)

A head of a Japanese system was walking along a path with several of his students. He was to pass on the leadership of the system soon, but wasn't sure which of his top two students should be named his successor. As they walked along, those two students walked ahead of the group, where they came upon a slow moving horse.

The elder of the two stepped around the horse and continued on his way, while the younger student slowed his pace and followed the horse from a close distance. Without warning, the horse kicked out at the younger student. With graceful agility, the young man leapt to the side, avoiding the kick. At the same time, he withdrew his sword and cut off the horse's leg, sheathing his sword in the same movement.

The fellow students and other bystanders marveled at the young man's speed and skill. The old master then announced that the elder student would be his successor. Some of the other student's were shocked at the announcement, stating that the skill just demonstrated by the younger student showed that he should be successor. While the master agreed that the younger man showed great skill with his use of the sword, he named the elder student as successor because he was wise enough to recognize the potential for danger and avoided it beforehand.

Okay, I think I've gone off on another tangent. I'm sure you've heard this story or others like it. Gah. Me shut up now.

Cthulhu

Great story. I have heard a different version but liked this one. The answer at the beginning was good. My experience has been that the styles I have studied in the past were by themselves very incomplete and in reality did not cover but one kind of opponent and mostly in one range. The other areas like "empty hand defense against a kinfe" still being taught today in these styles, is so unrealistic because they have not been really tested in anything today. Today I see fighters of such sophistication (not all of them in martial arts) that unless the style has evolved it cannot be all those things to the student. blah, blah, blah, yada, yada, yada. I really have to watch myself here. I can easily insert both feet.

Miller

Yeah, it is hard to discuss the weakness of various system without insulting a practitioner of that system who hasn't evolved enough to honestly dissect that system for themselves. Every system has a weakness. There is no one 'complete' martial art. That's like saying there is one perfect car. A truck is great for hauling stuff, but is lousy if you have a large family with lots of babies (think car seats). An economy car is great on the wallet, but offers subpar performance. A sports car has a lot of zip and looks nice, but maintenance and insurance costs are murder. I don't know. I think this is a weak analogy, but maybe the point came across.

I think a 'classical' martial art system works best when used against other practitioners of that system. For that system to work on people with different or no training, the student has to be adept enough to know how to modify what he knows in order to use it 'on the street'.

We then come back to crosstraining. Determining what to crosstrain in requires an honest assessment of one's system to recognize, say, a weakness in defending against a shoot, an overdependence on unrealistic stances, inadequate hand techniques, etc. This can only be done by a person with appreciable experience in that system who is openminded enough to recognize that his/her system is not the be-all-end-all. Then it's a matter of researching other systems and learning how to apply their strengths to eliminate your weaknesses.

It sort of comes down to Lee saying that ultimately, martial arts was "honestly expressing yourself".

Cthulhu
babbling again, dammit

I used to think that it was a waste of time to reinvent the wheel. But I now believe that everyone must find their own way. Finding weaknesses is hard when only sparring someoen in yourown system. To find the "truth" (hope not too monkish) you HAVE to go outside. Even in a system like JKD you will only find partial truths. You have to go everywhere to find IT. The Kool thing about certain JKD groups is that they all go different ways and to learn from everyone is extremely ecclectic.

See ya

Kinda like the story of the village that was looking for a samurai. 3 came and applied. They were sent into a hut to wait. As the first went into the hut a man attacked him with a pole. The samurai sliced it in half. The second man parried the blow. The third looked at the door and announced that they man should not attack a seasoned samurai and should come out before he got hurt.

The village hired the 3rd samurai.

In response to the other conversation. I agree that no art has it all for all people. Find what is right for you from wherever you can get it. Don't be convinced one thing will be all to all people.

Illustrated in Akira Kurosawa's classic film, Seven Samurai. If you haven't seen it, rent it! Better yet, buy it! Great movie.

Cthulhu

Can one thing (system) be all to any person ????

I don't think one system can be all to any person who is honest about him-/herself and the system studied. Any person truly adept at their chosen system will realize that there is no true 'complete' martial art.

Once this is realized, this person can either recognize the weaknesses and do something to 'fill in the gaps' (crosstrain), or they can simply do nothing, but they will always be aware of the weaknesses and will probably help other advanced students to recognize them as well.

This is being based on classical systems, most of which were created generations ago and their concentrations and biases have been programmed into their practitioners for decades, sometimes centuries. Even now, if someone were to attempt to create a 'complete' system, individual preferences and concentrations would very likely sneak their way in, leading to weaknesses in other areas. There is nothing wrong with this, it's just bound to happen with any art created by an individual, who has his/her own likes and dislikes.

Besides, it's fun to crosstrain anyway.

Cthulhu

It is fun. Anyone who doesn't do it misses out on the fun quotient alone!

Most people are too busy trying to save face.

Anything in time will become stale. The newness of doing something different and really being a student is unbeatable. It seems that the ones I have found myself connected to were always students first. I have had many people refuse to ask a question or even train along side other students because they were an INstructor of some kind. These people are really missing the point. It's fun at time though to watch them get a new student with spastic energy give them something other than the clean technique they are used to ....what do you think happens then?????;)

They used to say that the best swordsman in France never feared the 2nd best swordsman. He feared the worst swordsman, because you just never knew what they were going to do! :confused:

The TKD fella that runs the university martial arts class (only 1 credit, but hey...college credit for martial arts!) loves to learn new things, often getting students of other styles to teach him forms. He even wants to basically become my Okinawa-te student. Great guy. If I ever wanted to seriously study TKD, it'd be under him. Like all the best martial arts instructors, he's still a student at heart.

Cthulhu

That is exactly it. The best teachers are the ones who never stopped being students.

I'll learn anything from anyone. I may not keep it, but I'll sure as hell take a look at it first!
:p

The beautiful thing about MA is that it is never complete. Always wondered what was going through the minds of those who act as if they found all the answers. Even technique we have known for years and functionalized has to be tweeked to use against certain people. It is constant learning.

And here I was wanting that one super-secret-technique that works against anyone!

Heh heh heh:rolleyes:

We always JOKE AROUND with my advanced tudents about closing the doors and covering the windows to teach the "seceret stuff" Wouldn't it be nice. I was training one time at a school (TKD) and this dude told me he had the seceret stuff from hInstructor the past night...He told me "one of the things was when executing a spinning heel kick to first aquire your target visually when you turn and then begin the kick".....I always thought this was simply standard correct form...Guess not.

:o

Oh man, I have secrets. Lots of them! Wooooo...wait till I make my secret video!:eek:

At the risk of sounding like a jerk, Jim, that TKD guy you mentioned is a damn fool. How are you supposed to safely train that kick if you're not looking at the target beforehand? What if he did that kick to a partner holding a kicking shield and missed? That guy (and possibly his TKD teacher) are really lacking in the common sense department.

(rant mode=off)

Sorry about that...just got done with some homework where the solution to one problem took about 4 pages. The horror...the horror.

My system doesn't have secret techniques, per se. At the advanced levels, we simply break forms and techniques down more intensively. We could conceivably do this for the lower ranks, but we'd probably risk confusing the hell out of them. Better they learn the basics of the form first. At any rate, if they're dedicated enough, they'd discover that knowledge on their own, eventually.

I think 'secret techniques' is just an extremely cheap attempt at retaining students.

Cthulhu
w/brain goo oozing outta my ears

Sounds like you don't have any secret techniques... heh heh heh...

:D

Well, there's my 'beef and bean burrito butt-bomb', but that's hardly a secret, is it? :)

Cthulhu

I don't think he's a fool... Just misinformed. There seems to be alot of that. People often don't think for themselves. I did a seminar at that school while waiting I was watching a sparring class, (I was teaching trapping and boxing for the day there) and found myself laughing at the statement "this is a kill...I don't ever want to see that in sparring" man...How many people are walking around believing that @#!%. ? Oh well...We can't all know the seceret stuff...That wouldn't be any fun.

Sorry about that, Jim. On reflection, my wording was a bit too harsh, especially not knowing the man. 'Misguided' would be a better word, then.

I think any 'kill' techniques would be fairly obvious to a trained person. If you need to emphasize it's a 'kill' technique, then it ain't one. I dunno. To me, that falls under the 'secret technique' crapola.

Sort of a parallel...

In an interview granted by Bill "Superfoot" Wallace, the backfist was discussed. He talked about how many martial arts systems train the backfist as a power technique. However, the first time he used one full power in a match, the guy kept coming, causing Wallace to laugh. In other words, he was trained the backfist as almost a finishing blow, when in really it was nothing more than a jab. That being said, I'm sure there are some people with a backfist capable of shattering skulls. You could probably see the wind up for that strike from a mile away, though.

Basically, this and the 'kill' technique Jim mentioned can illustrate how some instructors just don't know what they're talking about, because they've never used their skills for real before.

Damn. I do tend to ramble on, don't I?

Cthulhu

I prefer to turn my backfists into hammer fists. Just a preference.

Backfists can be effective if you have the speed and accuracy to place them well. I usually like to target the zygomatic arch (cheekbone) or brow. Those sole purpose would be to open up a cut...definitely not going for a KO.

Usually, I'd only strike to the head with open-hand strikes...primarily eye gouges. Maybe spearhands or cuts to the throat. Palm heel strikes to the nose. Generally, open-hand strikes are faster and you don't risk injuring your hand if you miss and hit the skull.

However, when sparring, you're usually wearing gloves and your opponent may have headgear, so then punching to the head is relatively harmless.

Cthulhu
curious to see if the Capt. Kirk two-hand chop works in real combat

They worked for Kirk.
:rolleyes:

Ok, so lets see... the capt kirk way-

1- rip shirt
2- check dead tribble toupee..

:)

I prefer the Ric Flair chop myself. :D

Secret techniques - I agree... cash cow.


man, this cold is knocking my head loopy. :(

Isn't the Ric Flair chop a slap to the chest?

Cthulhu

It's supposedly a modified Judo chop. Turns into a slap at the end to a-make a big noise and b-to leave a mark. Flair trained alot with Ricky Steamboat who from what I've heard isn't too shabby on the MA side. Course, that brings up another question (new topic maybe) : How much of the "Pro" wrestling stuff is based on MA techniques? I mean, breakfalls come to mind. Some of the techniques seem similar to my >very< limited knowledge of jujitsu. Ric Flairs Figure Four for example, seems to be a modified hold. The sleeper hold also comes from MA, just tweaked for "safety". Plus several NHB guys have made splashes in the PW world - Ken Shamrock is probably the best known.

So, maybe the answer to the original thread question is - when you can make a living at it?

Just a thought.

This is a bit late but Bruce Lee loved that backfist. We have used it often and it is effecive. Hammer fist is great as well... The spin backfist, although not a jkd tech by any stretch is fun when used right.

I like the backfist, too! However, I would use it as a jab, not as a 'finishing' or KO blow. Spinning backfists are fun to do, but I'm hesitant to do any move that would expose my back to my opponent, no matter how brief a time. That being said, a spinning/turning back kick can be an excellent surprise technique against an in-fighter.

:cheers:

Cthulhu

Man...I have to say that I have used a spin back kick and when very close a jump spin back against a Thai fighter and it was done. I don't use any tech for a "finnishing" technique with the exception of headbutts. It all depends on who your'e fighting. In the trapping range with clinching, and HKE the opponent cannot conventionally kick, has no time, no room and unless they play that same range game, it really is over. things happen too fast. try to kick when you have been hit 6 times in one second and at least two of those hits are elbows with a fight ending headbutt: eek: Backfists fit so well here.

What do you consider your finnishing moves:flame: :uzi:

I like to use submission stuff in Judo as a finisher. I know it's not part of the game plan but I like them because it's fun to see people squirm and slowly realize that're screwed. Like the other night I was in Juju Gatame and the guy thought he had me until I weaseled into the kneebar. Even then he wasn't worried because he thought I had nothing. It was only when he felt the pressure on his knee growing that he knew that he was really really %$#@ed. (note - leg locks etc are illegal in judo and I would never advocate them. Well...except if your opponent is being a dink) :shrug: Otherwise I find that a nice head butt is a good set up.

In sparring otherwise I like to get in close and use a lot of elbows while using my hands to tie up. Knees too.

Hurm...'finishing' move may be a bad term to use. Maybe a 'telling' blow may be better. Basically, any move that either:

a) knocks the guy out (I could also say kill, but I won't:) )

b) severely injures the opponent so that he/she can't continue fighting. Think busted knee or elbow.

c) stuns the opponent long enough to do either (a) or (b)

What would accomplish the above three really depends on the situation of a particular fight at a particular time. However, 'standard' techniques could be elbows, strong punch to the chin/jawline, strikes to the back of the head/neck, kicks to the knee, kicks to the groin, solar plexus shots to untrained people, etc.

Yeah, 'finishing' technique was a bad term for me to use. I can't say I'd use an elbow as a 'finishing' technique all the time because there would be times when an appropriate target for the elbow would not present itself.

For sparring, submission holds are okay, but I don't know about for the street. Holds that will knock the opponent out (chokes/strangles) are fine, but pain-based submissions I'm not so sure of. Okay, you get the guy to stop fighting or surrender. What then? Eventually, you've got to let him go. Back to square one. However, if you use that hold to go ahead and injure a knee or elbow, that could end the fight. Brutal, maybe, but it's a fight, not a sparring match, yes? :)

Hurm. I have to stop writing 'stream of conciousness'. Sometimes I don't know if I'm making sense or sounding like some violent crackpot.

Cthulhu

Not challenging what you said just checking. You guys are sounding very JKDish...HKE and ground fighting, low line kicks...makes me warm all over:cool:

Well, I've always believed, that in the long run, JKD is just common sense. :)

Just to be sure...HKE?

Cthulhu

Headbutts, knees and elbows :D

Don't forget eyestrikes! Gotta love eyestrikes!

Speaking of which, I find that Century's B.O.B (Body Opponent Bag) is a really good tool to help train eyestrikes. Every time I train with him, I make sure I train eyestrikes, as well as throat strikes. Then I tear my forearms up punching him for an hour or more.

Fun!

:cheers:

Cthulhu

eye jabs as we call them are really sweet aren't they. takes just a flick. are you familure with Rapid Assault Tactics??????? really works the eye jab

Nope, never heard of Rapid Assault Tactics. Now that you've brought it up, you must explain :)

I train eye jabs often. After all, open hand strikes are usually the fastest...and what better target than a nice, squishy eye? :D

I'm trying to devise a device (ew, that looks odd when typed) to better train knee kicks...particularly, kicks to the side of the knee. I'm thinking something along the lines of two lengths of metal pipe joined at the ends by soem sort of spring, all covered with a light layer of padding. I'd have to experiment with the spring to find the right 'give'. Too light would be unrealistic. Too strong would'nt be too bad, though. Also have to make a good sturdy mount that won't fly all over the place when the target is hit.

Cthulhu

why not use a Thai bag......? R.A.T. is the process of a fight. first stage Entry) second stage Pressure and third stage Termination)
in each of these stages there are specific ways to fight to move through this process. It may open with a destruction and follow with the straight blast and end with HKE in the trapping range. This for example. It is really quite involved but You get it:asian:

I would like to use a Thai bag, but:

1) I ain't got one :)

2) I feel that a device like the one I mentioned would provide a more realistic feel. That, and it would just be fun to build! :D

Cthulhu

I had a friend mount a leaf spring on the floor in a way he could attach a thai pad to and that worked very well. He could add leafs as he saw fit

That sounds interesting. However, I don't really want to be bolting anything to the floor :)

The reason I want to use the pipe-spring-pipe approach it to try and simulate the stiffness of the lower leg and thigh with the slight give of the joint between the two.

Ah, it was just a thought. Probably never have the time to make it.

Cthulhu

Floor destruction...not good

Floor destruction on a rented house = very very not good :)

Ever read that book by Mike Young? I think it's called Home Martial Arts Training or something like that. Teaches how to build various equipment for home training. I think he also sells plans for other stuff (PVC mook jongs and the like).

Cthulhu

I have seen it but never really used it. I do like home made equipment that doesn't reinvent the wheel but serves a specific need. Gets kinda fun. nothing like training with new equipment;)

For me the thinthat makes me feel the martial arts have been effective inmy case is that fact that I don't have to use what I have learned.

I know this is an old thread, but I found it and its interesting.
On the subject of the weakness of different systems, maybe its the practitioner that has the weakness not the system? If the practitioner trains in the strikes and joint locks of a system but doesn't work much on the kicks then there is a weakness, but it is not neccessarily a weakness in the system, but in the training methods of the induvicual.

7sm

Originally posted by GouRonin

Here's a tough question with no one answer.

What is the ultimate indicator of a martial art's effectivness?:confused:
You can't measure a martial art. That is the ONE answer.

However, you can pretty much measure a martial artIST by not only their skills and abilities but their mental state, wisdom, and control.

The ultimate effectiveness of any martial art can be determined by the ability it gives you to adapt mentally and if necessary physically to any given situation. The inability to adapt will spell d-e-f-e-a-t every time.

Respects,
Bill Parsons

Originally posted by MartialArtist

You can't measure a martial art. That is the ONE answer.

However, you can pretty much measure a martial artIST by not only their skills and abilities but their mental state, wisdom, and control.

I completely agree. It also depends on the reasons *why* a person takes up a martial art. If it's to gain discipline and control in their life then can we say the art is ineffective simply because they aren't that great in a street fight?

Respectfully

Without putting words in anyones mouth, I think this thread was about effectivness as related to self defense, at least that is the norm by which MA are related to effectivness with.

While I agree with your statements completely I think personal change, and mental evolution are not related to effectivness of a MA in general.

7sm

I believe that mental control has everything to do with self-defense. Have some people locked up under pressure? Complete mind control keeps you in control and keeps you from blind rage where your adrenaline and testosterone just takes over. They should be used as supplementation to what you have, not to make you go crazy as that might get you in lots of trouble against certain people.

Mind control = More desire (who wants it more), more control, better performance, more endurance, faster reaction/reflexes.
Why do many martial artists from Mike Tyson to Kitabatake meditate? Mind over matter. Sounds easy to say, but how many of you can do push-ups over a bridge (equipped with water) in Seoul during the winter with bricks on your back? Add a trainer who doesn't care if he hits you or not. Whether you're a person at a NFL camp or anything for that matter, your mind will make or break you. The body follows the mind.



So many martial artists these days get rid of mental training. They are only limiting most of their potential.

Just be careful. Whether you're sparring or fighting, avoid when possible. I mean avoid fighting, sparring is what you should always do. But even then, or even at a tournament, just watch out.

Ultimate effectiveness?

Powerful application of bu philosophy in everyday life,facing conflicts with calmness and stopping conflicts before they start if it ever gets to that.
Staying healthy and wealthy.

To judge a martial arts effectiveness:

1. what is the practitioner looking for? fitness? self defense? and does the art meet what the practitioner wants?

2. if you end up in an altercation, and you are still standing when its over, I'd say your art is effective.

3. if you avoid an altercation because your art has taught you to be aware of your surroundings, your art is probably effective.