Dojaangs

[terryl965]

What makes a great Dojaang in everybody view.
Here is my list
1. A instructor who is humble
2. A instructor that makes every student feel good about themselfs
3. One that can accept they do not know everything
4. A Dojaang that gives back to there community in some way

Thanks I look forward to your response

GOD BLESS AMERICA

[TigerWoman]

What makes a great Dojang in everybody view.
Here is my list
1. A instructor who is humble
2. A instructor that makes every student feel good about themselves
3. One that can accept they do not know everything
4. A Dojang that gives back to their community in some way


Did you mean that "one" the instructor or the student? Actually it is both, you probably agree though, as it goes in with humility for everyone.
The points you listed are good. In addition:

- A instructor who has a planned lesson not just the whim of the day.

- Basics but done differently to make it interesting each time

- At least two days of hard workout for cardiovascular/fitness benefit.

- Having a time requiremen/minimum classes for going to testing. I've seen "talented" kids testing early, but not being mentally ready or mature enough for rank. I've seen adults, who hardly go, come and train hard for a couple of weeks and go to test thinking they should pass.

-A signup sheet for cleanup responsiblities by all ranks past green unless the student is already donating time for something else.

-Keeping the student's safety and well-being in mind. Like for instance hamstring injury caused by telling them to "bounce" down.

-Keeping discipline in the class. How would it appear to a prospective student and their parent if some students are running around or some are talkative instead of practicing form, for instance.

-Asking a student to particularly work on one thing that they are good at and making it their technique. Builds esteem also.

-Don't pass students until they know the basics, long stances, held front kicks at whatever level they should be at, for instance.

-Have a friendly atmosphere. Get togethers-twice a year at least

-Have Demo signup sheets, tournaments

-Have special classes-weapons, Black Belt, team form, self-defense for women, kick-boxing (not the choreographed line stuff) but on a bag

-equipment-mats, standup bags, focus paddles, balls to spin heel, bungee ripcords, stretch machine, weigh scale

All I can think of right now....TW

[Marginal]

What makes a great Dojaang in everybody view.
Here is my list
1. A instructor who is humble
2. A instructor that makes every student feel good about themselfs
3. One that can accept they do not know everything
4. A Dojaang that gives back to there community in some way



I hope at some point they teach TKD as well.

[TKD USA]

A very dedicated teacher. with a gun.
:mp5:

Just kiding about the gun part

[MichiganTKD]

Signs of a good Dojang:

1. An Instructor who actually works with the color belts and Dan students to make sure technique and manners are where they should be instead of just delegating all teaching to his black belts.

2. Black belts who actually have good technique. I've seen many black belts who didn't.

3. Instructors who know not only WHAT technique to do but WHY it is done a certain way.

4. Instructors who have credentials that are clear and traceable that don't involve breaking off from your Instructor or getting kicked out of your old organization.

5. Schools that emphasize manners and etiquette.

6. Schools that have black belt classes taught by the Head Instructor. Black belt classes help inspire color belts to earn black belts themselves.

7. Schools that emphasize actually practicing and sweating instead of buying whatever merchandise the Instructor is selling.

8. Instructors who can teach to each particular student. Each student has individual goals and needs.

9. Instructors who are more concerned with helping their students succeed than in making themselves look good.

[terryl965]

I hope at some point they teach TKD as well.Marginal of teach TKD HA! HA! HA!

[Marginal]

Dunno. Sounded more like a finishing school to me.

[terryl965]

Dunno. Sounded more like a finishing school to me.
JUST BECAUSE YOU TRY TO DO THE RIGHT THING IN YOUR LIFE DOES NOT MAKE TRAINING ANY EASIER... I WAS THOUGHT TO ALWAYS GIVE BACK WHEN YOU ARE BLESS, MY SCHOOL GIVES AWAY 12 SCHOLARSHIPS AWAY TO STUDENT SO THEY CAN COME FOR TRAINING, WE HAVE A LOCAL BUSINESS ALONG WITH (OTHER STUDENTS PARENT) THAT HELPS TO MAKE SURE WE CAN GIVE BACK WHAT WE SO TAKEN FOR GRANTED... NOT A FINISHING SCHOOL JUST A THOUGHTFUL DOJAANG.....GOD BLESS YOU AND AMERICA

[Marginal]

It's hard to tell when things like "Emphaisizes sound technique" and "Motivates students to do their best" lose out to "Makes everyone have high self-esteem". They're all useful in a good instructor, but if the TKD's left unsaid, it really does just sound like a church or some kind of social club, like Boy Scouts.

A good Dojang teaches a martial art.

[MichiganTKD]

It's hard to tell when things like "Emphaisizes sound technique" and "Motivates students to do their best" lose out to "Makes everyone have high self-esteem". They're all useful in a good instructor, but if the TKD's left unsaid, it really does just sound like a church or some kind of social club, like Boy Scouts.

A good Dojang teaches a martial art.
If by teaches a martial art you mean just practicing to bang heads, then that's not how I conduct class anyway. Why would anyone go to a class if the Instructor constantly criticizes them for not measuring up? You will always have the top students who push themselves, and the rest just do the best they can. Not being great in Tae Kwon Do doesn't mean you are a failure as a student.
Tae Kwon Do is more than just self defense. It is a program for your whole life. Many people who start, myself included, start because life is throwing rocks at them. Especially for these students, encouragement and self esteem should be emphasized. Otherwise Tae Kwon Do is dominated by athletes and fighters.

[Marginal]

If by teaches a martial art you mean just practicing to bang heads, then that's not how I conduct class anyway.

Not what I meant, but IMO the other stuff should only contribute to the MA rather than being the focus in of itself. The humble teacher who allows mistakes, asks only for the best out of every student (best being each student's personal best) facillitates the training, being humble, learning to give money to chairty etc shouldn't be the focus IMO. They should be done simply because it makes sense to do so.

Personally I don't beleive that TKD or any Do art really imparts this humility, the self-sacrifice etc any better than any other group activity will if that participant wants to not have rocks thrown at them by the other participants sooner or later. People get along because they have to, not because there's something inherently peace giving or ego diminishing unique to TMA's etc.


You will always have the top students who push themselves, and the rest just do the best they can. Not being great in Tae Kwon Do doesn't mean you are a failure as a student.

"Do your best, then do a little more." Not an unreasonable request really.


Tae Kwon Do is more than just self defense.

That may be so, but that's why it exists in the first place. You are in fact, teaching people how to fight.

[terryl965]

Not what I meant, but IMO the other stuff should only contribute to the MA rather than being the focus in of itself. The humble teacher who allows mistakes, asks only for the best out of every student (best being each student's personal best) facillitates the training, being humble, learning to give money to chairty etc shouldn't be the focus IMO. They should be done simply because it makes sense to do so.

Personally I don't beleive that TKD or any Do art really imparts this humility, the self-sacrifice etc any better than any other group activity will if that participant wants to not have rocks thrown at them by the other participants sooner or later. People get along because they have to, not because there's something inherently peace giving or ego diminishing unique to TMA's etc.



"Do your best, then do a little more." Not an unreasonable request really.



That may be so, but that's why it exists in the first place. You are in fact, teaching people how to fight.
Marginal, TKD is an art of fighting. Maybe you should go to Korea or any Asian country for that matter there Masters are Humble, they teach how to flurrish a tree, how to do gardening to relaxe the spiritual aspect of one mind, they even go out to help the villages to grow wheat and rice in the fields... That is giving back to there community.. I know you believe only in the the sport of TKD and I mean the Sport, TKD in this country has become sport, not for fighting on the street.... Thanks for your opion, I will stick by my guns and keep teaching with respect and the art of TKD... GOD BLESS AMERICA

[Marginal]

Marginal, TKD is an art of fighting. Maybe you should go to Korea or any Asian country for that matter there Masters are Humble,

If that was true, there wouldn't be scandal in the WTF, and 4 different ITF's right now. Asian masters are just as human as anyone else.


know you believe only in the the sport of TKD and I mean the Sport, TKD in this country has become sport, not for fighting on the street....

You really should at some point, read the posts that you're attempting to reply to. If you had, you'd notice I said nothing about sport, and I said nothing contrary to tradition.


Thanks for your opion, I will stick by my guns and keep teaching with respect and the art of TKD... GOD BLESS AMERICA

Just be sure you at some point do actually teach TKD. Flourishing trees is nice and all...

[terryl965]

If that was true, there wouldn't be scandal in the WTF, and 4 different ITF's right now.



You know nothing about me or what I think. Sorry.



Just be sure you at some point do actually teach TKD. Flourishing trees is nice and all... MARGINAL Thanks for your opion and yes you are right with all organization fighting just like any sport and remember WTF, ITF are all sport driven not actually the Art.. I respect your opion and I hope you can respect mine.. and by the way we do teach TKD... Thank you And God Bless You and Yours....

[Marginal]

MARGINAL Thanks for your opion and yes you are right with all organization fighting just like any sport and remember WTF, ITF are all sport driven not actually the Art.. Right. Which orgs do focus on this traditional TKD then?


I respect your opion and I hope you can respect mine..Dismissing me as some sport obsessed fool doesn't really make me beleive you respect my opinion somehow.

[Littledragon]

What makes a great Dojaang in everybody view.
Here is my list
1. A instructor who is humble
2. A instructor that makes every student feel good about themselfs
3. One that can accept they do not know everything
4. A Dojaang that gives back to there community in some way

Thanks I look forward to your response

GOD BLESS AMERICA
I totally agree with your list their. What makes a great dojo/dojaang im my opinion is: The atmosphere. The atmosphere must be a friendly atmosphere where you are able to easily communicate with the fellow students around you. Most important when you walk in you have to feel that this place is right for you and the school and master's are highly skilled and qualified in what they are teaching. Next the master. The master has to posess great skills and knowledge on martial arts predominantally the style he excells in. Most important the master/instructor must connect and adapt with the student. The master must be able to give adivce that helps a student in their life and make a difference when needed. The master has to be their for all of his students and run it as a school of martial arts where not only is he helping the students out physically and mentally but helping them become a better person as well. Also the master should but buisness seperate from true passion for teaching meaning not to be bribed for 2,000 for a blackbelt and stuff like that.

Tarek ;)

[TigerWoman]

Just be sure you at some point do actually teach TKD. Flourishing trees is nice and all...

That was insulting. Or did you not realize that he already has a school and is a good teacher of TAEKWONDO? And I think you missed the point that the better TKD schools do teach values such as humility. I certainly hope your school does. Obviously that is important to Terry1965 if you read his other posts.

He never said you were sport obscessed and I don't believe he was trying to insult you. Yes, WTF & ITF's are having their problems, but that is not really representative of the schools in this country teaching one on one, the martial "art" of TKD. Which he endeavors to teach. Those WTF/ITF problems are organizational with some human weakness thrown in.

People don't get along because of ego, lacking humility. It takes work to see someone else's viewpoint and to be humble enough to walk in their shoes. God forbid the martial artist who gets all the way up to black belt and doesn't have humility. Makes you think that this is what the real problem is with some in martial arts. Maybe MA schools should be teaching more values not less, don't you think? TW

[terryl965]

LittleDragon and TigerWoman thanks, Marginal sorry if you feel I do not respect you I have no intension of ever doing that, if I did judge you I'm sorry, I try not to judge people I do not know, it's not in my values....GOD BLESS AMERICA

[Marginal]

That was insulting. Or did you not realize that he already has a school and is a good teacher of TAEKWONDO? And I think you missed the point that the better TKD schools do teach values such as humility.

I think you should read my response to Michigan TKD before you start trying to presume on what I'm saying, or not saying. Like I ALREADY stated, those aspects are important, but they should compliment the training, not supplant the training.


He never said you were sport obscessed and I don't believe he was trying to insult you.

Sure he did. "I know you believe only in the the sport of TKD and I mean the Sport, TKD in this country has become sport, not for fighting on the street.... " Not only was that insulting, he blatantly ignored what I had written in only the post before. Least I did him the courtesy of actually reading his post. If I respond thoughtfully and I get "You're not learning anything useful, and I know you're dedicated to that." in response, I'm not going to be especially polite in following responses. He's already shown me where he wants the conversation to go.


People don't get along because of ego, lacking humility. It takes work to see someone else's viewpoint and to be humble enough to walk in their shoes. God forbid the martial artist who gets all the way up to black belt and doesn't have humility. Makes you think that this is what the real problem is with some in martial arts. Maybe MA schools should be teaching more values not less, don't you think? TW

I think we should be realisitic about how those teachings will be applied. As personalities, egos etc will continue to conflict no matter how many times you talk about humility, and the fact that it happens in even the highest circles tends to indicate that teaching more values isn't going to solve what is at its core, an unsolvable problem. Can't root out human nature. Even worse, there are people who are proud of their humility, which totally defeats the point.

At the end of a day, you're still training a MA. If you have a good instructor, they probably will be humble, etc. They'll also be running an established dojang because they realized a long time ago that doing those things retains students.

[terryl965]

Marginal in my previous post I did say I was sorry and did not mean to hurt you in anyway

[TigerWoman]

To Marginal:
Well, like MichTKD, I don't believe TKD is all about fighting or "sport" as Terry thought you meant. Its about becoming a better human being in the process of learning to defend yourself. Humility, is a big component. Without humility there is no respect. A black belt should learn to have humility when he is being trained to fight. If not, he is just a fighting thug in my opinion.

If one doesn't care about anybody else and its their viewpoint–my way or the highway, then that person has pride. Pride is not a good thing. It is one of the seven deadly sins btw. If a person has a humble attitude where he/she can accept that he CAN be wrong, then he is a humble person. It has to start with one person being humble, and I believe Terry is. Then two people, then three...

"You can be the change that you see in the world" is a saying that's around.

I would rather NOT see other people as attacking me. I would rather see that they have a good heart from reading these words in the forum and looking beyond to a bigger picture of what they are trying to convey. So I have to read the INTENT of the sentence. Marginal, you believe that's an "attack", saying he believes "you believe in the sport of TKD?" He apologized to you because you mistook his words as a insult. Also, you add words that aren't there... Then you finally insult him as a way of trying to get your point across but you tell him to teach TKD, as if he isn't already a teacher, and you make fun of his trees analogy. Its all about attitude. We respect your opinion but it would be nice if you would listen to what the other side has to say and at least try to respect and see some validity in the other's viewpoint once in a while. Respect/Humility goes two ways and hopefully it expands from there to others. TW :)

[Littledragon]

LittleDragon and TigerWoman thanks, Marginal sorry if you feel I do not respect you I have no intension of ever doing that, if I did judge you I'm sorry, I try not to judge people I do not know, it's not in my values....GOD BLESS AMERICA
My pleasure. ;)

Tarek

[Marginal]

To Marginal:
Well, like MichTKD, I don't believe TKD is all about fighting or "sport" as Terry thought you meant. Its about becoming a better human being in the process of learning to defend yourself. Humility, is a big component. Without humility there is no respect. A black belt should learn to have humility when he is being trained to fight. If not, he is just a fighting thug in my opinion.[/b]

That's great. You're just restating that post I pointed you towards tho. My point was, Asian master or no, character cultivation or no, you get similar results in a boxing gym. Seriously, don't just disagree with me this time and pretend you never heard this, go read some life stories of boxers. Boxing gave their lives focus, got them thinking about their futures, and made them better people etc. There's no explicit honor codes in boxing, no overly complex moral culture, but similar results are acheived. How can that be? Because if you maul your sparring partners etc, you don't have anyone left to train with. It's an atmopshere that relies on trust, respect, and a mutal deflation of the egos because without those elements being present, nothing gets done.

Saying it's only present in the TMA's is ignorant at best. Typically it's used derisively by TMA practitioers as a way of setting themselves above the "thugs" who don't spend their time forging their spirits like the good guys do. Personally I find that attitude condescending and arrogant, especially in the face of evidence that dispells that myth.


I would rather NOT see other people as attacking me. I would rather see that they have a good heart from reading these words in the forum and looking beyond to a bigger picture of what they are trying to convey.

I did. I read a post rife with mythologized asian masters and subtle racism. I decided it wasn't a shining example of someone trying to make friendly conversation.


So I have to read the INTENT of the sentence.

With marginal results.


Marginal, you believe that's an "attack", saying he believes "you believe in the sport of TKD?" He apologized to you because you mistook his words as a insult.

Why did you ask for an explanation of why I took offense if you didn't want to hear one? The fact he apologized doesn't change past circumstances that lead me to taking offense at the time. As you asked for an explanation, you got one. End of story.


Also, you add words that aren't there...

The technical term is "paraphrase". I personally consider TKD as a sport to be a waste of time. Therefore, him telling em I beleive in sport, means to me that he belives that I beleive in nothing. What's more he beleives this simply because I'm from the US.


Its all about attitude. We respect your opinion but it would be nice if you would listen to what the other side has to say and at least try to respect and see some validity in the other's viewpoint once in a while.

How? I take the time to explain my posistion, and the other side says, "I completely disagree with you, and I'm not going to discuss the matter any more." There's no discussion going on here. There's no evidence that anyone gave my opinion even the barest consideration. I can't even get a grip on the "other side" because you and Terryl aren't even trying (or willing) to discuss anything past your little perceptual moats. Someone disagrees with you, and you leave.

You might notice that MichiganTKD questioned what I was saying respectfully, and I gave him a respectful response.


Respect/Humility goes two ways and hopefully it expands from there to others. TW :)

Pity that only apparently happens when it flows one way. I STILL want to know where one learns the ART rather than "only sport" in the US. I'd also like to know how Terryl can teach the sport and the traditional seperately, if it's impossible to train the Art at all in the US as he previously claimed (though he ever so much hates to prejudge)

These are perfectly valid questions can can be answered simply with humility and respect without bowing out of the conversation, hiding behind apologies, or the humble use of random aspersions cast against broad organizations, and every single dojang and instructor within those orgs. He wouldn't even need to rain blessings down upon my head. I'd simply prefer an explanation that doesn't broadly dismiss the bulk of the TKD community (you included I fear, Tigerwoman as you train at a sport Dojang by Terryl's definition by default as well.)

I never blew off what he said. I disagreed with the focus of his list. That was it, and he came back saying that I didn't understand what he was saying because I hadn't basked at the feet of humble Asian masters. (Who are humble because they garden, or else that was proof of their humility, that they were willing to garden. Can't really "get" the intent there.) But that wasn't my fault(yay!), because my Dojang is spiritually bereft due to its sporting focus. (But now he's sorry so I have to pretend he said nothing? He still insulted me, my training, my instructors, and the entire US in the process of saying something he "never intended to say".) If this respect/humility thing actually is a two way street, I'd think he could make his point without insulting every US TKD practitioner who studies the art seriously in the process.

For that matter, I think you could stand to explain why an instep round kick is more powerful than any round kick using any of the other potential striking tools. You never did attempt to put any theory or fact to the claim. You simply said it was more powerful and faster, than said you disagreed with everything I said. You even put words into someone else's mouth to support your claim that the instep was the ultimate, the only tool to use with the roundhouse. (Even though the person you "agreed" with said BotF was better for penetration and by extension, breaking.) The shin's a recognized striking tool in Shotokan, a universally respected one in MT, etc but you dismissed it out of hand, right along with the ball of the foot. Was I honestly out of line then as well because I tried to give reasons why one tool is better at distributing force in some situations vs one for all?

Ah well. If you're still not satisfied I'm suitably chastized, humble or equally respectful to you as you are to me, I can just apologize for that wasn't my intent, bless you and then say I disagree with everything you said and run from this thread. That seems to be the "humble" and "respectful" approach to discussing an issue or topic regarding a MA. (Even when there's no possible way it could be anything but a MS) It'll even demonstrate how much I value your opinions. Win Win!

[terryl965]

Well Marginal I for one am not trying to dodge your questions, An apology is not a moment of weakness or trying to get out of the converstation. You stated that I insulted you so the right thing to do is apology's (in my world anyway). Here goes my background in the field of Martial Arts since 1964 my Father W.R.Stoker Sr. Master Drill Instructor for 26 years out of 32 years he was in the Marine Corp. Was in War World 2 and Korean, was train in combat Judo and Karate, trained over 250,000 men in that span. I for one can never be as great of a Martial Artist as he, He was able to train with Master Nhygun( mispelled I know) and the likes of the great Master of Karate over in Asia.(Of course this was back before my time) I started TKD in 1982 in California with Master Gin Kim in Orange county, old school joint locks, sweeps, pressure points and throws. Then came the Olympic style and we all adjusted to it, my oldest of three son's compete in AAU and USTU for the reason of tying to make Junior Olympics and maybe one day the Olympic team. He looks up to the Garcia for there high flying and TKD abilities. We teach AAU and USTU for those that wish to do the sport aspect of TKD we let them know that this type of training is for the ring not very effective on the street although it can do damage in the right enviroment. We also teach another class for those that wish to learn more street wise self defense of TKD, we also have a couple of people that compete in the extreme tournaments, I'm not there coach or anything we just give them room to train and teach those of us that wish to learn from them.
Marginal as a last comment to you WIN WIN comment nobody wins in a converstation we all have are opions and they can never be wrong, facts are wrong. I hope in life you are able to find peace withen yourself and your surroundings, for me MA is peace not so much for battle, I will walk away before I with throw a kick or a punch anymore. We try to teach all aspect of MA and yes my wife and I are teacher in the school district as well, church people and were involved in all types of community affairs. Not trying to say your not we just have a difference of opion in are MA training. I'm sure you are a very strong individual and hope you have all the good fortune in your life... GOD BLESS AMERICA
Look into the NKMAA They are trying to bring back traditional Korean Art :asian:

[Marginal]

I started TKD in 1982 in California with Master Gin Kim in Orange county, old school joint locks, sweeps, pressure points and throws.

That's a good history. I will say though that I do train those same areas right now, today. They're divorced from sparring, but the elements are still being taught. (Right along with etiquette etc.)


Marginal as a last comment to you WIN WIN comment nobody wins in a converstation we all have are opions and they can never be wrong, facts are wrong.

Opinions can be valid, or they can be invalid depending on their factual backing IMO. Someone saying that a whiffle bat is just a good for self defense as a solid side kick for example... ;)


I hope in life you are able to find peace withen yourself and your surroundings, for me MA is peace not so much for battle, I will walk away before I with throw a kick or a punch anymore.

I don't get in fights, nor do I expect to be in any in the near future. However, I like to train with that level of seriousness so that if I do find myself in a situation beyond my control, I still have options at that point.



Look into the NKMAA They are trying to bring back traditional Korean Art :asian:

Sounds interesting.

[MichiganTKD]

Not to get off topic here, but it appears the NKMAA is one of those organizations where they accept anybody regardless of what style they practice. Thanks, but I'll stick with Tae Kwon Do where I know who everybody is. Call me closedminded, but Tae Kwon Do, Hapkido, Kuk Sool, and all the others are separate entities and should remain separate.
Why do you think the Kukkiwon is a separate building just for Tae Kwon Do?

[terryl965]

Not to get off topic here, but it appears the NKMAA is one of those organizations where they accept anybody regardless of what style they practice. Thanks, but I'll stick with Tae Kwon Do where I know who everybody is. Call me closedminded, but Tae Kwon Do, Hapkido, Kuk Sool, and all the others are separate entities and should remain separate.
Why do you think the Kukkiwon is a separate building just for Tae Kwon Do?

MichaganTKD you are right they do except other Korean base styles, I was just giving other example's. Myself is sticking with TKD I find the workouts and descipline to be to my liking, webelong to the USTU and AAU as stated. Thanks for yoyr insight and I for one do not believe you are being close minded just like TKD and you should stick by your Guns. God Bless America

[kwanjang]

Not to get off topic here, but it appears the NKMAA is one of those organizations where they accept anybody regardless of what style they practice. Thanks, but I'll stick with Tae Kwon Do where I know who everybody is. Call me closedminded, but Tae Kwon Do, Hapkido, Kuk Sool, and all the others are separate entities and should remain separate.
Why do you think the Kukkiwon is a separate building just for Tae Kwon Do?

As I stated to you before, NKMAA does NOT accept just anybody; however, we DO accept Korean martial artists regardless of style, and we have a good reason to do so. Our members include highly regarded Masters in a variety of Korean martial arts, and many of them are Kukkiwon certified. They are more than happy to have found a comfortable home where WE respect them (unlike you, who so obviously does not respect other Korean stylists).

NKMAA does not deal in politics, and we do not ask painful questions on why some truly good and honorable Tae Kwon Do people no longer trust the organizations they used to support. Pehaps it is due to the negative press about corruption or the many splits and infighting among former brothers in the arts. Whatever their reasons for leaving, they are of no importance to us as long as they are respectable martial artists who would rather train in peace than in total political chaos and dispair.

We do not try to change the ways of our members, and everyone trains in their respective art just as they always have. They are graded by highly regarded Masters who were promoted to their respective rank by legitimate organizations that have simply fallen apart. We do NOT recruit members who have not contacted US first, and the only thing that binds us together is the fact that we share a common love for Korean martial arts. Last but definately not least, we respect each other.

I have tried to ignore your insults and the spread of misinformation about NKMAA in the past, but I think it is time that somebody makes you aware of your complete lack in good manners. I have trained since before you were in diapers, and I have willingly shared my art with tens of thousands of people around the globe without charging an arm and a leg. For this I have gained the respect of some of the highest ranking Korean and non Korean martial artist in the world... all without ever asking for it.

I have been accepted as an honored guest in the Kukkiwon, and there I found that martial art etiquette and good manners is not lacking in Tae Kwon Do... it is just lacking in YOU. Even your signature reeks of insolence. In case you think your opinion is actually worth something... not to any respectful martial artist I have ever ran across in more than fifty years of training and teaching in all parts of the world.

[MichiganTKD]

Rudester,

I never said I didn't accept other styles. I said Tae Kwon Do, Hapkido, Kuk Sool, and others are separate entities and should be treated as such. If you want to practice a Korean style other than Tae Kwon Do, have at it. However, the reason in Korea why the Kukkiwon is separate from the Kidohae (or whatever it's called) is simple: Tae Kwon Do is the Korean national art and sport, separate from all the others. If TKD and the other arts were meant to be united and mixed, there would be one building, authorized by the Korean government, with the blessing of the Instructors. There is not.

Now as for calling me arrogant. I am not. I am opinionated. I am not one to stand by and blindly agree that all Korean arts should be unified and exist in harmony. They should not and probably will not. They are different and should remain separate.
Also, I also don't claim to have taught 10,000 people worldwide. I don't teach every Tom, Dick, and Harry who pays $300 to attend my seminar and takes what they learned and does who knows what with it. I'm a little more selective in who I teach.
Finally, I don't refer to myself as "Kwan Jang" in all my posts. Granted, I am not a Kwan Jang, but I don't refer to myself as Master or Sabumnim either.
Kwan Jang is a highly honorable title, not taken lightly. Someone who drops the term Kwang Jang as a self reference when talking to others debases the title and strikes me as someone who has not truly earned it. I do not refer to myself as Master Instructor or Sabumnim unless someone asks me my official title in Tae Kwon Do. Otherwise I am a Tae Kwon Do Instructor. I certainly never consistantly refer to myself in postings that way.

I've noticed the ones who get the most upset or offended with me tend to ride the highest horses.

Just remember: Rank, real or otherwise, does not automatically bring wisdom.

[terryl965]

Michagan TKD not every Dojaang that charges for there services is a Mcdojo, we charge $50.00 a month and $80.00 for two and $110.00 for three or more for training, In my opion you must have been in one of those type of schools at one time, I know I was, you pay for your cert. and never get them or they hold you hostage for it.I do not know for a fact anything about you, generally I agree with most of your post. But I've have been able to communicate with Kwang Jang and he is a pretty upstanding individual. He's organization has a lot of top flight MA along side of him, that must say something for this person. Anybody that has servived for twenty or more years in the MA, to me anyway has to be worthy of titles given to them from there peers. We all will never see 100% with anybody but as MAist we most know how to be humble enough to make sure that the art stays around for many years after we are gone. I now my son's will carry on my legacy when I'm gone and forgotten and hopefully there offspring will do the same. Alot of MAist need to be reminded from time to time that we are providing more than a service, today world parent look into MA as a sport not really self defense until they hit there early 20's and then most thats stay around really start to understand the self defense aspect, in those early years they look for medals, trophys and companionship thoughout the circuit. Right or wrong that is the way it is around my area.we teach TKD sport for those that wish to compete, TKD old school for the one's that want to really learn and extreme MA for those that want to get the crap knock out of them, and no I do not teach the extreme we have two gentlemen that teach, they patricpate on that extreme circuit. Pretty cool the way they really go at it even when they practice. God Bless You and Yours and America

[TigerWoman]

To Marginal:

I hope you find what you need out of training. You seem to be struggling with along of stuff ie those who protest too much... Someday you may have a different viewpoint than you have today about interacting with other people. Anyway best of luck and may God bless you and bring you happiness. TW

[kwanjang]

Rudester,

I never said I didn't accept other styles. I said Tae Kwon Do, Hapkido, Kuk Sool, and others are separate entities and should be treated as such. If you want to practice a Korean style other than Tae Kwon Do, have at it.


This post is not intended to defend myself or NKMAA. My post is simply to point out that Michigan TKD spouts off about things he knows nothing of (even in his own art) in order to push his point of view. To unsuspecting readers, he might come off as someone who knows something about Korean martial arts, but from reading the articles on this forum it appears that he is simply a small minded man who promotes discord among Korean martial artists. Unfortunately, he does so without finding facts and with a venom that reminds me of racism.

I use the following quote taken from World TKD HQ web site to support my statement (something Michigan TKD should try sometimes before he spout off his venom).

Snip "Taekwondo originated from the period of Three Kingdoms-Koguryo, Baekje and Shilla- about 2,000 years ago. It has been positioned in Korean traditional culture as a sport a martial art with its title changing from Soobak to Taekkyon, Kwonbop and Taekwondo." End snip.

As you can see by WTKDs own literature, TKD began its life from a variety of the same Kwans that used Korean martial art techniques far beyond what is in its curriculum today. Back then it was not a sport... it was simply an art used to defend the nation. Much of what Michigan TKD wants to keep separate ALWAYS WAS part of TKD.

Snip "Taekwondo was practiced under the name of Karate in the 1930s but had its real title restored in 1945. Since then, however, various schools (Kwans) derived from Taekwondo began making their appearance. Chaos resulting from the split became so serious that many sports leaders in Korea were determined to merge those taekwondo schools into one and formed the Korea Taekwondo Association(KTA) under the presidency of Dr. Un Yong Kim in 1971." End snip

From the above, we can see that the founding force behind Kukkiwon was made up of sports leaders. Nothing wrong with that, but let us not forget the reason why and by whom Kukkiwon was built.


However, the reason in Korea why the Kukkiwon is separate from the Kidohae (or whatever it's called) is simple: Tae Kwon Do is the Korean national art and sport, separate from all the others. If TKD and the other arts were meant to be united and mixed, there would be one building, authorized by the Korean government, with the blessing of the Instructors. There is not.


You seem to allude that Kukkiwon was built by the Korean Government in order to unite Korean martial arts. In fact, it was built because of one man's vision to promote Tae Kwon Do as an Olympic sport (and thereby raking in millions of won for which he was recently taken to task for).

It was General Choi Hong-hi 's Tae Kwon Do that was formed to unite (some) Korean martial artists. The builders of Kukkiwon never had this in mind from day one. Their interest was mainly SPORT, and that is why the Kukkiwon resembles a sports arena (as is easily seen by anyone who has ever visited the place). Again, nothing wrong with that, but let us keep it in mind when we think about reasons why things were done.

Snip "The Kukkiwon had many difficulties because of the lack of the building for its headquarters. Strongly feeling the need for such a building, Dr. Un Yong Kim president of the Kukkiwon, constructed a reinforced concrete bilding for its headquarters in Yuksam-dong in Seoul using his own resources." End snip


Now as for calling me arrogant. I am not. I am opinionated.

Just because YOU say you are not arrogant, does this make it so:)


I am not one to stand by and blindly agree that all Korean arts should be unified and exist in harmony. They should not and probably will not. They are different and should remain separate.

You appear arrogant, because the above statement is in obvious direct opposition of the founder of Tae Kwon Do. Yes, there are many techniques in Korean martial arts, and none of the arts have them all; however, they ARE Korean martial arts (many would even disagree with that).

What really bothers me is your next line which indicates that in your opinion (and I write this whole thing to show that your opinions are something else) Korean martial artists should NOT live in harmony. Yes, they are different; however, just as we have many techniques in Korean martial arts, we have many races on this planet. Are you telling us that we should not get along just because we are different?????


Also, I also don't claim to have taught 10,000 people worldwide. I don't teach every Tom, Dick, and Harry who pays $300 to attend my seminar and takes what they learned and does who knows what with it. I'm a little more selective in who I teach.

I taught many thousands of Korean style martial artists because they ASK me to share what I have learned over more than fifty years of practicing Korean martial arts.

As far as fees, once again, you have NO IDEA what you are talking about. Those who have hosted my seminars know that I charge a mere $45.00 per person (what promoters charge is their business, as they need to recoup their expenses). NKMAA is a Government registered non profit entity, and that is why my services cost so little when compared to the fees others charge.

As far as being selective in who you teach. Perhaps you are selective in who you teach because there are no thousands who ASKS you to:) I am curious on how you seperate the beginners that come to your school. You have some sort of built in radar that tells you which ones to "select"? I say BULL to that. You and anyone else who runs a school will accept beginners, because there is just no way to choose who will turn out good or bad. FWIW, there are scores of people whom I refuse to teach, and you would rank among the top of those.


Kwan Jang is a highly honorable title, not taken lightly. Someone who drops the term Kwang Jang as a self reference when talking to others debases the title and strikes me as someone who has not truly earned it. I do not refer to myself as Master Instructor or Sabumnim unless someone asks me my official title in Tae Kwon Do. Otherwise I am a Tae Kwon Do Instructor. I certainly never consistantly refer to myself in postings that way.

The title Kwan jang is nothing special... it merely serves to indicate that I inherited a kwan and run it (just like Westerners call the head of a corporation a CEO). In Korea the use of titles does not make anyone better or worse, it simply indicates the position in life of the person has attained. It is non Koreans who have elevated titles to mean more than that. If you don't understand the use of Korean titles, that is too bad for you. Perhaps it will give folks a "heads up on the extent of your knowledge" when they read your stuff.

I never use "Nim" behind the title kwanjang as THAT is the part that makes the title honorific (and therefore is only used at the discretion of those who addresses a person). Again, your lack of knowledge on common use of Korean titles is an indication of your lack of experience with things pertaining to respect.

Your signature "Michigan TKD" does not mean to me that you represent all TKD practitioners in the good State of Michigan. I know better, and no one needs to waste time on the forum to explain that to me:)

Gaining wisdom is usually a result of having an open mind and many, many years of experience. You apparently have neither, and it is about time that the readers of this forum know that your opinions are perhaps best kept to yourself until you get some more experience in manners and knowledge.

Do yourself and the rest of us a favour... ask some pertinent questions and learn something instead of offering worthless opinions.

[terryl965]

Dear Kwanjang you must remember close minded indiviuals never really base anything on facts. They simply vocally spout off without the knowledge of the topic they talk about. I've learned over the last 35 years in the MA enviroment for every 1 Humble open minded artist there are 10,000 close minded MAist, Me myself I have always respected those that try to look beyond the close doors of life to see the other side and try to understand why and how this would effect everybody and the world itself. As a wise man once said you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink so is it with life you can give knowledge to some and others you can simply blow hot air. God Bless you and yours. GOD BLESS AMERICA

[terryl965]

That's a good history. I will say though that I do train those same areas right now, today. They're divorced from sparring, but the elements are still being taught. (Right along with etiquette etc.)



Opinions can be valid, or they can be invalid depending on their factual backing IMO. Someone saying that a whiffle bat is just a good for self defense as a solid side kick for example... ;)




I don't get in fights, nor do I expect to be in any in the near future. However, I like to train with that level of seriousness so that if I do find myself in a situation beyond my control, I still have options at that point.



Sounds interesting.opions are not wrong, fact are wrong and this topic is strickly opion. For there are no facts to what makes a good dojo, every instructors have there way of doing thing. There way is not wrong and my way is not right for everybody else, that is why we all talk on this forum to exchange ideals and bring our views to other MAist around the world. i have travelled around the globe and found a lot of different views from people just like me. I hope you will one day be able to see other views without being so arrougant about everybody else. Your analogy about the wiffle bat for the guy saying he thought the wiffle bat being better maybe in the right senerio it is (a half inch hard plastic wiffle bat swung at the right angle to the throat and crush the voice box would be bettr than a sidekick to a guys chest and just knocks him down with no damage and he is able to get right back up). Just my opion not right or wrong, just my opion.God Bless You and America

[Marginal]

opions are not wrong, fact are wrong and this topic is strickly opion.

Opinions are not involiate. If they are based on bad facts or faulty premises, they are in fact, bad opinions. That's not intended to cause affront, that's just the nature of an opinion. The dictionary's going to tell you the same thing.


For there are no facts to what makes a good dojo, every instructors have there way of doing thing. There way is not wrong and my way is not right for everybody else, that is why we all talk on this forum to exchange ideals and bring our views to other MAist around the world.

To a point. If someone runs a dojo for example, and their entire training method involves ways to make attackers slip on bannana peels, their opinion that it's a viable seld-defense method does not make it so.


i have travelled around the globe and found a lot of different views from people just like me. I hope you will one day be able to see other views without being so arrougant about everybody else.

Well... Ok. I was trying nothing more than to end the conversation on a concillitory note, but if you want to view me as being contrary and arrogant even when I'm not, that's your call to make.


Your analogy about the wiffle bat for the guy saying he thought the wiffle bat being better maybe in the right senerio it is (a half inch hard plastic wiffle bat swung at the right angle to the throat and crush the voice box would be bettr than a sidekick to a guys chest and just knocks him down with no damage and he is able to get right back up).

Our experiences differ I guess. All whiffle bats I've ever seen are hollow and at best can produce an angry red welt when used to attack someone. A side kick that has the potential to break ribs or what have you, seems more effective to me.

Further, I only meant the comparison as an analogy. I wasn't in any alluding to how anyone in this thread etc practices TKD, or MA in general. I'm just saying, a weak and thin hollow plastic tube is weaker than a side kick when it comes to delivering force.


Just my opion not right or wrong, just my opion.God Bless You and America

I'm still not sure why my response made you mad, but sorry for whatever the issue is. If it's simply the view that opinions are not all good, there's nothing I can do about that. Hate to give yet another example, (which will probably be taken the wrong way by at least one person or another), but saying "Black men are inferior to white men." is someone giving their opinion. Is that opinion right?

Tigerwoman: You're right. I'll update my ignore list accordingly. "Be aware on one's vices, contempting those of others". Will be by guide here. I'm not really interested in hearing how your training's superior to everyone else's. Since my experiences differ from yours and you cannot accept that mine may be equally valid, it's clear we'll never have a civil conversation.

[terryl965]

Marginal I was not upset, never have been I believe you are very sincere in your views and you should be commended for that. It takes a strong man to stick up there values and opions. I for one wish you the best in training and in life. May your kicks be faster and harder than your nemises. thanks for your views I've learn from them, just like I have learned from other people views. God Bless You and America

[Marginal]

Well, just to be clear, I post on here to get differing points of view. I certainly don't think I'm always right. I state my observations and opinions strongly, but I'm willing to change my mind provided that someone's willing to take the time and give me reasons why I'm misinformed. If they just flatly tell me I'm wrong and say nothing else, I assume they're either not knowledgeable enough to correct me in the first place, or else they're so hardwired by their own instructors that they cannot even conceive of looking at a technique, or mentality etc from a differnt angle/viewpoint without dismissing it out of hand. In both cases, they're not saying anything that better informs me, and they're blowing off my experience training and the experience of my instructors. These people I can ignore as if they're not willing to explore the spirit of mutual concessions, they're simply being discourteous, close-minded, and arrogant. Not the type of people I want to learn any kind of MA from. I bear no obligation to practice courtesy towards people who are unwilling to extend courtesy themselves.

So long post short Terryl, I appreciate you taking the time to expand upon what you were saying despite my assishness. ;) I may not agree with what you're saying in some areas, (I think I do get it in the sense that there are no bad martial arts, only bad martial artists rather than there are no bad opinions) but at least I can understand where you're coming from now.

[MichiganTKD]

Rudy "Kwan Jang",

The Kukkiwon was built by the World Tae Kwon Do Federation to symbolize Korean Tae Kwon Do. I don't consider Choi to be the "Father of Tae Kwon Do", so he is irrelevant to me. Was he important? Yes. The Founder? Only if you're ITF.
Second, as a Hapkido/Kuk Sool Won student, why do you care about the Kukkiwon? I certainly don't care about the Kidohae. My attitude about the Kidohae is the same as a museum that showcases black powder rifles-nice, but obsolete.
The Kukkiwon was built to symbolize and promote Korean Tae Kwon Do. It contains the offices of the WTF, classrooms, the demonstration arena, the museum, and other areas. Contrary to your belief, and I suspect you believe it because of your obvious ITF leanings, it was NOT built strictly to promote Olympic Tae Kwon Do, but to promote WTF Tae Kwon Do, give TKD a Headquarters, and give the TKD community a Korean-based symbol of the Art we practice.
The Kukkiwon wouldn't have been built without the money raised by Dr. Kim. What happened to him was unfortunate, but he was one man and the WTF will go on. Major changes will probably occur, but it will go on.

Interesting you should accuse me of being arrogant.
You are a member of the World Head of Family Sokeship Council. Ordinarily, this would mean nothing to me. Just a group of ego-stroking wannabes walking around with their chests puffed out trying to feel important.
Now on this council are guys like John Pellegrini, your friend Humesky, and a host of others claiming 10th Dan and higher. I never realized there were so many 10th Dans in the world. All of them with legitimate credentials I'm sure. What exactly is Ki Jitsu, anyway?
You know, you can judge a man by the company he keeps. The fact that you claim membership on this council of people whose credentials are, to say the least, laughable, speaks volumes about you. You remind me of a hyena trying to irritate a tiger. The tiger just looks at it and says "go away little man."

[glad2bhere]

Been here; done this; bought the T-shirt.


I wouldn't mind these little pissing contests--- if they really have to take place--- except that I have noticed a very disturbing trend. And I will start with Rudy since he is at hand in this particular exchange.

My relationship with Rudy is pleasant and respectful. I have been to a handful of his events (enough to know that I like what I see) and plan on going to many more. I worked with Kevin Janisse (one of Rudys' students) and had the pleasure of meeting what I consider Rudys' "2nd in command" and found both individuals polished, accomplished and accessible yet with a refreshing reserve to their rather obvious confidence. Now my personal value system in assessing such folks as Rudy is that the "apple never falls far from the tree" and whether I actually experience these same qualities in Rudy or not (BTW, I have) I would bet that he had no small part in developing these qualities in his students. OK, now lets flip the Hapkido coin over.

In the last five years alone, I have seen high profile people (a few are "household names") in the Hapkido community, sell rank and standing, defraud membership, be unmasked as misrepresenting their lineage or heritage, reveal their impoverished understanding of Korean martial arts (some of these are Korean nationals) and prostitute their arts. Did I say "the apple doesn't fall far from the tree"? Look at the people that associate with the folks I am alluding to. We're talking arrogance, greed, abuse and mean-spiritedness. So, where is this going? Just this.

Somebody like Rudy comes down the pike, does good and gets roasted for his associations. For me I advocated strongly for the MYTBTJ and its study and got a "who cares" for my trouble. Then somebody comes along selling rank, or making up his own brand of KMA for commercial gain and gets a "by" because "well, thats just the way the KMA world is." As I say, I have seen this crap before. Good people working to leave the KMA somehow better for their efforts get roasted and the greater number of charlatans get free rides until they do something so outlandish that you can't turn away.

In closing let me say that I think one of the reasons that I am drawn to Rudy is not so much his "connections" but the fact that he seems to exhibit many of the values that I have come to believe in. He travels to distant places--- sometimes at his own expense--- always at the cost of his own discomfort--- and arrives to draw people out of the best parts of themselves. He's tolerant, patient--- but above all he models "service" which is a documented historic mainstay of Korean martial traditions for nearly 700 years and is NOT something that gets a lot of press in these days of commercial MA. My suggestion is, if we really need to go down this road, that we identify one of the many dirtbags or scumballs that are fouling the KMA community and count our blessings for the few "Rudy-s" we have.

Just my opinion: Your mileage may vary.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[terryl965]

Very well spoken Bruce. I to have found Rudy to be pleasant and very know;edgeable in what he talks about. A few more good guys would make the world a better place, my only comment is we need the dirt bags as you so put to make those like Rudy be all that more appreciated. GOD BLESS AMERICA

GoodLuck
Terry

[kwanjang]

No worry folks. I've said my piece, and it serves no purpose to go on. While I am at it though, it was refreshing to see Marginal's last entry. I like it when a person has convictions but is willing to listen and even change his or her mind when additional information warrant it. Way to go:)

[MichiganTKD]

I'm not worried either. He won't change my mind, and I certainly don't expect to change his. He just needs to understand that not every member of the Korean martial arts community looks up to him and considers him a role model. I will continue teaching my classes and he can continue appearing in any magazine that will have him and belonging to organizations full of self proclaimed Grandmasters.

[MichiganTKD]

To get back on topic:

I think another mark of a good Dojang is one that makes its students feel part of something bigger within the Tae Kwon Do community.
I don't mean taking Tae Kwon Do students to Hapkido seminars or bring in Kuk Sool Won guest Instructors. I mean the Instructor is a valued and active member of the TKD community and the students are allowed to benefit from that experience. There are some schools where the Instructor has broken off from his teacher or is not active within the larger TKD community for some reason. So they teach and judge alone, and possibly bring in teachers from other styles because the Instructor does not have those TKD connections. The students learn in a vacuum.
Our organization has been fortunate to attend tournaments and seminars in various countries worldwide. Our Grandmaster is active with the world Tae Kwon Do community, and has allowed his students to compete against and train with other students and Tae Kwon Do Instructors around the world.
Additionally, at testings our students are fortunate to have judges from around the state and around the country, not just locally or just the Instructor.

[terryl965]

To get back on topic:

I think another mark of a good Dojang is one that makes its students feel part of something bigger within the Tae Kwon Do community.
I don't mean taking Tae Kwon Do students to Hapkido seminars or bring in Kuk Sool Won guest Instructors. I mean the Instructor is a valued and active member of the TKD community and the students are allowed to benefit from that experience. There are some schools where the Instructor has broken off from his teacher or is not active within the larger TKD community for some reason. So they teach and judge alone, and possibly bring in teachers from other styles because the Instructor does not have those TKD connections. The students learn in a vacuum.
Our organization has been fortunate to attend tournaments and seminars in various countries worldwide. Our Grandmaster is active with the world Tae Kwon Do community, and has allowed his students to compete against and train with other students and Tae Kwon Do Instructors around the world.
Additionally, at testings our students are fortunate to have judges from around the state and around the country, not just locally or just the Instructor.
Very nice to have guess judges for a belt test, sound like you have a great school going on there in Michigan when I go up to the dearborn area to see relitive I should drive to your area and take a class or two if that would be alright. GOD BLESS AMERICA