I mentioned in this thread (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=812) that I had heard it said that karate is 40% Chinese in origin, 40% native Okinawan systems, and 20% unspecified "other". I believe that the Chinese influence is greater than that, and in an article in "Martial Arts Presents...Masters of Karate" (May 2002) noted historian of the Okinawan arts Patrick McCarthy states that, in his opinion, karate is almost entirely Southern Chinese kung fu--that prior to Chinese influences, most notably in the 1800s, there was relatively little unarmed martial arts knowledge in the Ryukyus, and that in any event what survives today is almost all inherited from China. he lists very specific examples of well-known karateka studying in China or with Chinese living in the Ryukyus, and discusses the Ryukyuan experts practicing the kung fu.

But I can look at someone doing kung fu and someone doing karate and 10 times out of 10 I will correctly identify the kung fu practitioner as such and the karateka as a karateka. I can't always correctly tell an Okinawan karate form from a Japanese karate form, or a Korean TKD/TSD form from a Japanese form (without the uniforms, which differ) but I wouldn't mistake even Five Ancestors Fist kung fu for karate despite the great similarities, nor Southern praying mantis kung fu for the similar Uechi-ryu.

Karate is different from kung fu, but if Mr. McCarthy is right then in the 1800s karate was kung fu and there was relatively little native Okinawan martial knowledge to mix with it. Why is Okinawan karate so clearly different from kung fu then?



(* Corrected Link to include /forum/ RP *)

Actually, their is no difference within the okinawan system of karate. It all lies within the Jiyu or (No Form/Formless) Freestyle application of the system in street fighting. At the higher levels of skills, abilities, application and execution of self-defensive combative striking, kicking, punching, kneeing and elbowing, etc, lies the similarities. The basic applications and executions of forms and katas differ. Yet, upon reaching the dan ranking and progressing within this hierarchy reveals the true secrets of the martial way. The way reveals the formlessness of progression, execution and applications in the combative environment. Thus, martial styles merge into infinite methodological conceptualities of expressive physical formless motion which hold in it's applications the law's of scientific principles. Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

But what did the Okinawans add or change that made it possible for me to reliably distinguish between the karate and kung fu--as I certainly feel I can!--and where did that knowledge come from? And, really--why did they change it? It sounds as if they originally practiced literal kung fu.

Originally posted by arnisador

But what did the Okinawans add or change that made it possible for me to reliably distinguish between the karate and kung fu--as I certainly feel I can!--and where did that knowledge come from? And, really--why did they change it? It sounds as if they originally practiced literal kung fu. Right now i do not have much time to post. Yet from what i understand the okinawans combined the martial skills of the minamoto bujutsu (both weapons and empty hand), the martial skills of the jigen ryu, and the martial arts skills of the chinese with their bushi te, torite/toide to form a very formidable fighting style of martial arts. I will comment further in the next post. Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

Its hard to say about percents...The percentage you gave may apply to Shuri-te Systems. But I know in Goju and Uechi, they are newer to the island of Okinawa than the Shuri systems.

Goju I would say is about (my school anyway) 80% Chinese, 20% Okinawan. I've come to this from studying in 3 schools of Goju and my study of various White Crane systems which share mini similarities to Goju.

I know Sanchin has been modified first by closing the fists by Kanryo Higaonna to make it easier to adapt to the Okinwans because of the long practice of the cork screw punch, and then Miyagi Sensei adding backward movement and taking out the turn.

Gekisai Kata are Okinawan, drawing their inspiration from Kungfu, they were created by Miyagi.

Tensho was crated by Miyagi, from inspiration of the Chinese Kata Rokkishu

The other 8 kata are supposed to be somewhat true to form from their arrival in Okinawa.

Uechi-Ryu (Pangai Noon), may be around 85-95$ Chinese and the rest Okinawan.

I'd like to know the similarties of Toon-Ryu to Goju and I'd know more truth, its founder Kyoda was a student of Kanryo Higaonna along with Miyagi!

Michael
http://www.inigmasoft.com/goyukai

Originally posted by GojuBujin

I know Sanchin has been modified first by closing the fists by Kanryo Higaonna to make it easier to adapt to the Okinwans because of the long practice of the cork screw punch, and then Miyagi Sensei adding backward movement and taking out the turn.

I didn't know this!


Uechi-Ryu (Pangai Noon), may be around 85-95$ Chinese and the rest Okinawan.

Yes, this is virtually unadulterated kung fu.

Toon-Ryu

I don't know about this system!

I wish I knew more about Toon-Ryu myself. It does not seem to be widely practiced. I only know of its relation to Goju. One of my old Sensei's was a practitioner of Shuri-Itsu, just one of many old Shuri Systems, He's the only one I've met of the style, maybe one of the few left, he maybe the only one left.

Michael
http://www.inigmasoft.com/goyukai

Originally posted by GojuBujin

One of my old Sensei's was a practitioner of Shuri-Itsu, just one of many old Shuri Systems, He's the only one I've met of the style, maybe one of the few left, he maybe the only one left.


I must say, I find this a fascinating, even romantic, situation--to be the last practitioner of a rare art. Silly, I suppose.

i studied Uiechi-ryu for a few years when i was younger, and i had no idea of the extent of kungfu influence - ie that Uichi-Ryu

:is virtually unadulterated kung fu.

I mean, i knew of the chinese origins etc etc, but not that it was so directly related.

Could anyone post more on the heritage of Uiechi-Ryu? Finding myself fascinated......

Bao

Originally posted by Baoquan

i studied Uiechi-ryu for a few years when i was younger, and i had no idea of the extent of kungfu influence

I studied it for about a year--fascinating stuff.


Could anyone post more on the heritage of Uiechi-Ryu?

There's a wealth of info. on it on the web. For starters, try:
http://www.uechi-ryu.org/about/uechi/index.htm (History.)
http://www.uechi-ryu.com (THE Uechi-ryu cite.)
http://www.uechi-ryu-karate.com/ (Video clips here.)

In short: The founder, Kanbun Uechi, studied a style (probably) called Pangainoon ("hard and soft") in China. It was essentially a tiger/dragon/crane style with an emphasis on the phoenix-eye fist. The system contained three forms (Sanchin, Seisan, and Sanseiru). When Kanbun Uechi returned to Okinawa he reluctantly agreed to teach it, eventually adding five additional kata that he largely created himself in order to make the style more approachable. It was renamed from Pangainoon to Uechi-ryu after his death in memory of him. he taught literal Southern Chinese kung fu at first, then added his own new kata and perhaps made some other changes.

Here is a good one. Let's have a two man attack, with one attacker committing about 10 seconds before the next attacker. The 1st attacker throws a left thurst with a knife to the face. You block with a left high block and trap the knife hand while stepping away from the attack with your left leg, and immediately circle in with the right leg with a high right stomp to the attacker's left knee while simultaneously breaking the trapped arm's elbow with a right palm heel strike, dislodging the knife in a safe neutral area on the deck. As the 2nd attacker starts his attack from behind you, you catapult the high right inward stomp to a high right outward stomp to the 2nd attackers lead knee breaking it and bending him slightly forward at the waist, while lifting your left leg in the high toe facing downard position as you expand you left and right arms violently; right arm palm up and left arm palm down, as the right arm connects to the 2nd attackers throat as an inverted palm up ridgehand strike; finishing the 2nd guy off. The 1st guy has a broken knee and elbow on the same side and the second guy has been finished off with a broken knee and vicious strangling trechea damaging ridge hand thumb strike to the throat. You are left with both attacker's down and standing on you right leg with your left leg up, to pointing down and both arms spread. What defense was used, karate, or kung fu. This is a great example of karate becoming kung fu. The multiple attack defense started with the karate block, trapand break on the first attacker and ended with 2 distinct kung fu forms to finish the 2nd attacker off and end the attack for the defender to escape. These two form endings are enterpreted as " Great Rock Speads It's Wings" form from kung fu or the more traditional "White Crane Spread It's Wings" Form variation from tai chi ch'uan! Thus, there was no difference between systems for this multiple attack senerio and the same defense omitting the outward stomp kick could have been used for just 1 attacker! Practical, efficient, and very effective martial combative defensives for any practitioner whom train's in the martial way. Therefore without the kata and with the kata/(form) they (karate and kung fu) have become one! :asian: Ami Tou Fou! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

http://members.aol.com/kespresbar/hurkd.html
http://www.geocities.com/redwooduechi/aboutuechi.html
http://members.tripod.com/phantomwords/MartialArts/historyofuechiryu.htm
http://www.dragonslist.com/articles/styles/?id=57

Thanks Arnisador - appreciate the links.

I spent the weekend reading about the history and development of many different styles of kungfu, and its great feeling to see where my own studies connect, even in a very tangential sense.

thanks again.

Bao :asian:

Five Ancestor Fists is strictly kung fu

Only some movements are the same but mostly are all different. Especially in combat....

There is a Five Ancestor Fist book that has a comparison of their forms and Okinawan karate forms on pages 30-38:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/080483153X/ref=lib_dp_TFCV/002-0399587-8163205?v=glance&s=books&vi=reader#reader-link

Yeah I saw it but is it actually the same? Yeah they got comparison but that is all it. How about looking at the hand techniques section page 46-70 can you see all this moves in karate?

The comparison is there because the Okinawan forms are based on Chinese forms. Some forms like Hakutsuru are exact same forms as their Chinese versions, others (like Sanchin - "The Tension Form" already mentioned) have been modified.

Sanchin was a Chinese kata, but one master on Okinawa clenched the open palms into fists, changed the movements and turns, and voi'la people don't recognize it as Chinese any more even the movements are all same, and mostly in same order too.

A lot of the look of karate was influenced by Okinawan Te, and it is understandable how some stuff no longer resemble kungfu. But anyone who does Okinawan karate for some years (as opposed to Japanese karate) will see the obvious similarities in kata, in basic techniques and in application. Compared to the Japanese styles, Okinawan styles are very fluid, flowing, soft, circular and so on - i.e. very Chinese compared to the Japanese styles.

Yes they have comparison and yes karate came from Kung Fu but does it the same in applications and principles?

Many people cite Bubishi as "The Bible of Karate". Well, guess what, Bubishi is actually a book on White Crane Kungfu, just imported to Okinawa by some karateka. Now we see it as a karate manual, when the karate masters saw it as a kungfu manual! "The rose by any other name..."

Yes they got one but why some karate movements they use aren't no longer the same in Kung Fu? Or shall I say no longer original? That means "difference".

Ok Okinawan Karate came from Kung Fu but how about other Karate?

Anyway Pyros, Bubishi was not only a book of White Crane but other forms as well maybe there a lot versions of it

Originally posted by yentao
Yes they got one but why some karate movements they use aren't no longer the same in Kung Fu?

Ahem... Because they changed them according to their preferences and skills in Okinawan arts? Is this too difficult to understand?

Ok Okinawan Karate came from Kung Fu but how about other Karate?

What do you mean? I don't understand. Okinawans learned Te and Chuanfa. They mixed them and taught it as they preferred. Japanese karate was born from some people studying Okinawan karate and focusing it for school education and tournament teaching. Thus the differences, no big deal. People learn, modify and pass on. Change is inevitable. Same with languages. Most spoken languages belong to families of languages and have their common ancestor languages, yet different groups of people use their languages differently thus modifying the languages so we no longer understand the other group. Same with evolution of the species. Start from common ancestors, yet grow into something different with some similar traits apparent when researched.

Originally posted by Pyros
Ahem... Because they changed them according to their preferences and skills in Okinawan arts? Is this too difficult to understand?



What do you mean? I don't understand. Okinawans learned Te and Chuanfa. They mixed them and taught it as they preferred. Japanese karate was born from some people studying Okinawan karate and focusing it for school education and tournament teaching. Thus the differences, no big deal. People learn, modify and pass on. Change is inevitable. Same with languages. Most spoken languages belong to families of languages and have their common ancestor languages, yet different groups of people use their languages differently thus modifying the languages so we no longer understand the other group. Same with evolution of the species. Start from common ancestors, yet grow into something different with some similar traits apparent when researched.

Yes I got your point boy! But the topic here is the difference between karate and Kung Fu. I'm telling you not all karate came from Kung Fu brother.

So you are trying to say that some karate that was came from some korean martial arts are came from Kung Fu?

Not all okinawan arts came from China you know some are already practice before like their weaponry such as the sai which is mostly all asian country has with different versions of practices.
So you said Japanese Karate came from Okinawa error dude some karate were develope already from Japan by using other arts...:) Like you're saying Kendo came from China. Some arts like Tang Soo Do and Hwa Rang Do are korean arts traveled to Japan and some karate has it! Actually some kicks came from Tae Kwon Do! Well now... That's the deal they modify it therefore they no longer the same. The originality got lost. Why would they call it karate if its KUNG FU after ALL. Or shall I say "Kempo"

That's the point they changed it and that what's makes them different from KuNG FU. Was it clear yet? I think you have to learn more about Asian culture and histories. :rofl:

Originally posted by yentao
Not all okinawan arts came from China you know some are already practice before like their weaponry such as the sai

Well, I was trying to keep this simple and not get into too much detail. There have been whole books written about this and even they have gaps as the issue is quite large. When I said that they combined kungfu with Okinawa's own Te, I kinda included all the koryu 'n uchinadi stuff there without mentioning it specifically.

Why would they call it karate if its KUNG FU after ALL.

They called it kara + te, that is Chinese Hand (kara was originally written with a kanji meaning Chinese and later substituted with another kara kanji meaning empty). The old karate kanji were actually pronounced toudi but the kanji Chinese itself was kara. But this again goes into far too much detail for my taste. This ain't an uchinanguchi lesson after all.

:asian:

Japan did have indigenous martial arts like Sumo, Kenjutsu, and Jujutsu, but I believe Pyros is right in saying that "Karate" is derived from Chinese martial art.

To further support this claim is of course the original "spelling" of "kara-te" with the characters that mean "T'ang Hand." This reference to the T'ang dynasty of China was meant to be clear--what we are doing is a chinese method of fighting/Te .

A couple of years ago I found that my local library carries 2 videos in a british series called "What is karate?" (Forgive me for not remembering who wrote and narrated). They give a wonderfully detailed account of the history of karate and its major breakdowns, and even the history of each style, and an account of the major players involved. It is very well-detailed.


I too wonder about Arnisador's original question: since at least some of these traditional styles were at first 100% kung fu, then why don't they even look similar any more? Why is karate so linear and tensed, while kung fu is so circular and relaxed? (I generalize, but I think we understand the visual difference between the two).

My only possible explanation hinges on the japanese training methodology. Perhaps since, as yentao pointed out, there are indigenous arts of Japan, the early karate styles were under pressure to train in a "more japanese" way. This corresponds historically to a time when xenophobia was high, and there was much suspicion about foreign things (hence the changing of the "spelling" from "T'ang hand" to "empty hand"). Perhaps they mimicked the training methods of kenjutsu and jujutsu, or some other Japanese training ideas to produce this difference in "feel."

Best,

~TT

arnisador, can you identify the characteristics that allow you to differentiate the two?

That's good Pyros but still the difference was on the air.

Originally posted by Elfan
arnisador, can you identify the characteristics that allow you to differentiate the two?

Well, I find them hard to put into words, but they're there--generalizing, karate is more linear (in its strikes especially), has fewer changes of head height in the forms and less variety of stances, has relatively more closed fist vs. open fist techniques and few clawing techniques, doesn't have techniques that take the person doing the form all the way to the ground, is done in a more staccato fashion, is occasionally punctuated by a "kiai" (the expressin of breath is different in kung fu), keeps a straight spine, and other things.

Someone will disagree with me on every point above, and certainly I can name exceptions-I've been taught clawing techniques in karate--but those are some of the things, leaving out obvious cultural issues like the nature of the opening bow.

Originally posted by arnisador
Well, I find them hard to put into words, but they're there--generalizing, karate is more linear

This is certainly true in Japanese styles, but many styles such as Okinawan Goju-ryu, Uechi-ryu and so on contain lots of circular movements (blocks, punches, throws and so on).

We should also define more closely, to which kungfu style are we comparing karate. If we compare Okinawan karate to the styles from which it was developed from, we find lots of similarities. If we take some other kungfu style we find lots of differences. For example, compare such kungfu styles together like Wing Chun and Choy Lee Fut. They look very different yet are both kungfu. Wing Chun doesn't have much "changes of head height" or much "variety of stances" as you put it. Yet it is southern kung fu. Okinawan karate has several forms that are exactly the same as their chinese counterparts. Okinawan karate has even more forms that have been slightly modified but still resemble their original counterparts. I have already given examples of both categories (Hakutsuru is identical, Sanchin is slightly different but still totally recognizable).

Okinawan people had their own previous martial arts experience and that affected how they studied and modified kungfu. For example, many of the most prominent kungfu styles imported to Okinawa favored open palm techniques, but Okinawans preferred clenched fists. So they quite often modified techniques so they were done with fists. This sometimes required changes in the technique or tactic too as you cannot use fist in exactly same manner as you can use an open palm.

One of the kungfu styles that affected karate on Okinawa, was White Crane. Compare White Crane forms and techniques with Uechi-ryu or Okinawan Goju-ryu. You'll see quite a lot of similarities when you look into it. But you have to dig a bit as there are the differences too and many see them first. The hand positions are just a surface. See the forms, see the tactics and theories and notice that they begin to look similar.

keeps a straight spine

As in many Chinese styles (like Wing Chun for example).

I think I am in full agreement with you. The differences between Japanese Karate and Northern Shaolin Kung Fu are much more pronounced than those between Okinawan Karate and the Southern Kung Fu styles from which they derived. Okinawan systems have more circularity in their blocks but still tend to have more linear strikes than kung fu. Uechi-ryu I think must be considered a special case--I've argued ths elsewhere on the board--while on the other hand Isshin-ryu shows less of its Chinese influence than other Okinawan styles, in my opinion.

It's hard to put the differences into words, perhaps, but I stand by my assertion that you'd have a very hard time tricking me in to thinking that a kung fu form was a karate form or vice versa. The similarities are striking but the differences are there.

Originally posted by yentao
Yes I got your point boy! But the topic here is the difference between karate and Kung Fu. I'm telling you not all karate came from Kung Fu brother.

So you are trying to say that some karate that was came from some korean martial arts are came from Kung Fu?

Not all okinawan arts came from China you know some are already practice before like their weaponry such as the sai which is mostly all asian country has with different versions of practices.
So you said Japanese Karate came from Okinawa error dude some karate were develope already from Japan by using other arts...:) Like you're saying Kendo came from China. Some arts like Tang Soo Do and Hwa Rang Do are korean arts traveled to Japan and some karate has it! Actually some kicks came from Tae Kwon Do! Well now... That's the deal they modify it therefore they no longer the same. The originality got lost. Why would they call it karate if its KUNG FU after ALL. Or shall I say "Kempo"

Hate to tell you this, but the TANG in TANG SOO DO means China. Tang Soo Do is the Korean version of the word Kara Te Do.
That is, Tang = Kara = China.
Having said that, I would just be guessing if I said that the other words follow suit. Though I do know that by the time Tang Soo Do was formed, Korea had been heavily influenced by Japanese culture and language.

The Okinawan word for Chuan Fa is Kempo. They mean the same, therefore Kempo and Kung Fu should be the same, however as has already been said in this thread, certain changes were made to suit personalities and preferences.
I'm not sure of how the change from Kempo to Karate came about, but when it did there were a lot more changes made.


--Dave
:asian:

Originally posted by twinkletoes
Japan did have indigenous martial arts like Sumo, Kenjutsu, and Jujutsu, but I believe Pyros is right in saying that "Karate" is derived from Chinese martial art.

Jujutsu, is only Japanese by virtue of the fact that it was created by some samurai, that travelled to Okinawa, and studied the grappling portion of Kempo, and returned to Japan and taught it as a stand alone art.

--Dave
:asian:

Originally posted by D.Cobb
Hate to tell you this, but the TANG in TANG SOO DO means China. Tang Soo Do is the Korean version of the word Kara Te Do.
That is, Tang = Kara = China.
Having said that, I would just be guessing if I said that the other words follow suit. Though I do know that by the time Tang Soo Do was formed, Korea had been heavily influenced by Japanese culture and language.

The Okinawan word for Chuan Fa is Kempo. They mean the same, therefore Kempo and Kung Fu should be the same, however as has already been said in this thread, certain changes were made to suit personalities and preferences.
I'm not sure of how the change from Kempo to Karate came about, but when it did there were a lot more changes made.


--Dave
:asian:

Dave your right Tang Soo Do is from kung fu but not influence by karate. ACTUALLY Tang Soo Do means TANG DYNASTY MARTIAL ARTS BUT THEN FORMED BY KOREANS IN THE SILLA DYNASTY THEY JUST NAMED IT THAT WAY out of respect. You said changes right? CHanges can produce difference right? So.... How about HWA Rang Do an Tae Kwon Do that influenced KARATE?

What would other people say are the visually apparent differences between a Karate form and a Kung Fu form?

Regarding differences, there is one point that may be the most important. The differences between all the different Chinese systems are vast. It is very hard to make generalizations about Chinese systems when there is so much diversity.

Just one example. Some of the northern systems emphasize use of the feet to a greater extent, and the southern systems, like Wing Chung, less so.

That is one of the reasons that making any comparisons is so difficult. The second has been discussed above. The karate systems themselves are so varied. In the discussion of linear vs. circular, it was noted that some Okinawan systems have more circularity than others.

With that caveat, I will venture out on to the thin ice. One difference is that compared to Okinawan systems, in many Chinese systems, the kata tend to be much longer and elaborate. A second difference is that in many Chinese systems there is less emphasis more softness, both in the kata as well as sparring. Many Chinese systems are known as internal systems, where techniques are done at high speed, but without all the flexing that occurs in some karate systems.

In sparring, this softness (typically much more open hand) enables more free-flowing combinations, where the object is more to touch the opponent than to hit them. In sparring, one can really see the differences in the more circular aspect of the Chinese systems. In some of the Chinese schools I have been in, this softness leads to a very different sparring environment. The softness also means that it is a bit slower than full speed, and one can really work on a diversity of techniques and combinations, and engage more in trapping and locking, than is possible in the full speed, full power approach to sparring found in many karate systems.

Finally, many more modern Okinawan systems do not do elaborate grappling. The historical reasons for this are varied, and thought some of these less grappling-oriented systems may have a greater emphasis at the higher dan levels, at the lower levels there is a heavy emphasis on block-kick-strike. Whereas in many Chinese systems, there is a lot locking and takedowns done right in the beginning.

Being a TKDer, I can see the Chinese influence in out forms, as well as, the japanese influence. It is chinese elements are watered down over the years, yet they are still part of the art. I see a stronger influence in Tang Soo do than Tae Kwon do.

Mountain Sage

Originally posted by yentao
Dave your right Tang Soo Do is from kung fu but not influence by karate. ACTUALLY Tang Soo Do means TANG DYNASTY MARTIAL ARTS BUT THEN FORMED BY KOREANS IN THE SILLA DYNASTY THEY JUST NAMED IT THAT WAY out of respect. You said changes right? CHanges can produce difference right? So.... How about HWA Rang Do an Tae Kwon Do that influenced KARATE?

I'm sorry, but from an outsiders point of view, TSD is just too much like Karate in appearance than Kung Fu. In fact Chuck Norris trained in TSD and he calls it karate, so what does that tell you?

As for HRD and TKD influencing karate, I don't think so Tim. (To coin a phrase).
True Karate, that is karate of Japanese origins can be traced back through Okinawa, and then to China. If it is influenced by these Korean styles then I would think that it may happen at a personal level, ie. a certain instructor sees something he likes in TKD or HRD, and adds it to his particular style of Karate.
On the other hand I could be wrong, but I'd need some proof from a reputable source before taking as took!

--Dave
:asian:

Haha I don't believe in Chuck Norris ain't a fan of him. Also, do you really saw TSD before as in directly from Asia?

TSD is centuries older than Karate. I advise you to go to Korea and read histories.

You better prepare to justify everything you just posted....

Do you want me myself to tell you the history of TSD?:cool:

About TKD influencing karate it is possible some Japanese invaders would force people to teach them.

This happened to China as well when they invaded fujian province they force a lot of masters to train their soldiers.

Anyway I'm not talking to about all karate.

Originally posted by yentao
Haha I don't believe in Chuck Norris ain't a fan of him.

Sorry friend, but I have incontravertable proof that he does exist!

Originally posted by yentao
Also, do you really saw TSD before as in directly from Asia?


Mate, I haven't saw TSD now in Australia.

Originally posted by yentao

TSD is centuries older than Karate. I advise you to go to Korea and read histories.

Nah, that's why I've got the internet, I can read the histories right here at home!

Originally posted by yentao
You better prepare to justify everything you just posted....


You're the one making the claims, YOU do the justifying!

Originally posted by yentao
Do you want me myself to tell you the history of TSD?:cool:

Not really. I have no interest in the style per se. If I was to meet someone who does the art and we had a discussion, then maybe I'd be interested to know a few points. But otherwise no thanks.

Originally posted by yentao
Anyway I'm not talking to about all karate.

Of course not, it's a generic term, I doubt you'd have lived long enough to research all styles. Heck this thread is starting to sound like another one, where everything comes from Muay Thai.
I know, it can't be that because I'm sure you would think that Muay Thai comes from TSD.

I have a question for you, Where are you from?

--Dave

I'm N.P.A. Living around S.E. Asia. Anyway I know Chuck exists What I only mean "I don't belive in everything he says I'm not fan of him". I don't need proof.

Hahaha I don't think the INTERNET can tell enough histrories to you. Yes I'm ready to justify my posts but I don't take claims. HAHAHA you where you from?

Thank you all for stoking my ego aon ueichi ryu. And as for the difference in lenght in karate and kungu, I believe that the shortness of karate katas is intended to teach select movements and allow the students to have a core group of moves that he or she will know very well.

Did Bugs Bunny do Toon Ryu? Ok, I'll go stand in the corner now.

Originally posted by yentao
I'm N.P.A. Living around S.E. Asia.

I'm starting to think that should read "Under a Bridge", as that's where most trolls live!

Now after a small amount of research, check this out.

The kanji for Tang Soo Do, are Tang Sho Dao in Chinese and
Karatedo in Japanese. (Old kanji for Kara)

This was actually the name used for Karate in Okinawa loooooooooong before, it ever went to Korea.

Not to mention the fact that some of the Kata are exactly the same in name, Kanji wise and almost the same in performance. All this proves that Korea has never had an influence on Japanese/Okinawan arts like karate, judo, or kendo.

You're just here to annoy people aren't you?

--Dave

:shrug:

Originally posted by GaryM
Did Bugs Bunny do Toon Ryu? Ok, I'll go stand in the corner now.

Hey, now that's funny!!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Originally posted by D.Cobb
I'm starting to think that should read "Under a Bridge", as that's where most trolls live!

Now after a small amount of research, check this out.

The kanji for Tang Soo Do, are Tang Sho Dao in Chinese and
Karatedo in Japanese. (Old kanji for Kara)

This was actually the name used for Karate in Okinawa loooooooooong before, it ever went to Korea.

Not to mention the fact that some of the Kata are exactly the same in name, Kanji wise and almost the same in performance. All this proves that Korea has never had an influence on Japanese/Okinawan arts like karate, judo, or kendo.

You're just here to annoy people aren't you?

--Dave

:shrug: :) :)

Ahemmm

Anyway I think you are the one annoying here shrub? You cheap guy. I don't care if you don't believe me. Just keep yours into you.

As a Chinese martial artists I do research as well. Base in my research I asked my Korean friend who is one of the people who studied under Grand master Hwang Kee.


Well loooooong before those okinawan guys learn kung fu in China.

TSD around 2000 yrs. ago when it originated it was known as Soo Bahk or Tang Shou which means "Tang Dynasty Hand". During the Silla dynasty a queen name Song-duk sent men to learn Kung Fu in China under Tang martial arts 2000 yrs. ago. After yrs. of learning kung Fu from the Tangs the men return to Korea to teach the art. They called it Tang Shou which now you can translate it buddy to what is known to be Tang Dynasty Hand.

Well later they call it Tang Soo Do it only has similarites with karate because of their common origin. The wide stances for example.

I know Kan Ji as well so don't try to use it to make your info look more creditable. READ THIS: Tang Shou (Tang - refers to Tang Dynasty, Shou - hand) in mandarin translation OR Soo Bahk was the first known name for Tang Soo Doo.

I think you are the one fooling around the first place.

Maybe your sources fooled you hahaha. Or you just don't get your source clearly!

The longer you push it, the more humiliating things will come to you... :cool:

Actually the term "Soo" in Tang Soo Do refers to "Shou"- hand. The "Shou" has the same meaning of "Shou" in Chi (Shou) "Sticky Hands" in Wing Chun.

So DaVE! Pls. stop fooling us around. You don't even know Chinese well.

:asian: :asian: :asian: :asian: :asian: :asian: :asian: :asian: :asian:

Please, keep the discussion polite and respectful.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

Originally posted by yentao
Actually the term "Soo" in Tang Soo Do refers to "Shou"- hand. The "Shou" has the same meaning of "Shou" in Chi (Shou) "Sticky Hands" in Wing Chun.

So DaVE! Pls. stop fooling us around. You don't even know Chinese well.

:asian: :asian: :asian: :asian: :asian: :asian: :asian: :asian: :asian:

You are right, I don't know Chinese well, but my friend who lives in Japan, is married to an Okinawan woman and has lived in China and speaks reads and writes both Chinese and Japanese, fluently, does know Chinese very well. He is where I got my information!

So I'll say this as politely as I can,Go Blow That Out Your Kazoo .

I have never stated that I know any of the aforementioned languages, and no you were wrong, I am not humiliated.

Originally posted by D.Cobb
You are right, I don't know Chinese well, but my friend who lives in Japan, is married to an Okinawan woman and has lived in China and speaks reads and writes both Chinese and Japanese, fluently, does know Chinese very well. He is where I got my information!

So I'll say this as politely as I can,Go Blow That Out Your Kazoo .

I have never stated that I know any of the aforementioned languages, and no you were wrong, I am not humiliated.


So am I, I can speak Chinese, I got relatives there in China as well.

Haha so is this guy from Japan know TSD or another karate kid? If not your sick.

Well Of Course your not humiliated because you have thick face trying to say something that you ARE NOT DIRECTLY know of. I guess your friend should be the one that is posting here.

I remember you said that TSD and Karate are the same right? I think this is where all started

Go check this: For history
http://www.worldtangsoodo.com/

[QUOTE]Originally posted by D.Cobb
I'm starting to think that should read "Under a Bridge", as that's where most trolls live!

Now after a small amount of research, check this out.

The kanji for Tang Soo Do, are Tang Sho Dao in Chinese and
Karatedo in Japanese. (Old kanji for Kara)

This was actually the name used for Karate in Okinawa loooooooooong before, it ever went to Korea.

Not to mention the fact that some of the Kata are exactly the same in name, Kanji wise and almost the same in performance. All this proves that Korea has never had an influence on Japanese/Okinawan arts like karate, judo, or kendo.

You're just here to annoy people aren't you?

--Dave


:shrug:

YOU SAID THAT [B]The kanji for Tang Soo Do, are Tang Sho Dao in Chinese and kARATEDO in Japanese So you are trying to say they are the same meaning which is not.

YOU SAID you have never stated that you know any of the aforementioned language. THEN you should not post something that you don't know. Go get your friend to explain your posts. Still not humiliated?

Please, keep the discussion polite and respectful.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

Originally posted by yentao
THEN you should not post something that you don't know.

Why not? You do, every time you post and pretend that you know English! I never said I know the language, what I said was the kanji for the two was the same. This was told to me by someone that speaks, not only Chinese and Japanese, but also English. Now I would prefer it, if you would go away and learn English as well, so that I can understand your pathetic ramblings a little better.

Originally posted by yentao Still not humiliated?

Humiliated? No!
Aggravated? Yes.

Now go away, you bother me boy!

--Dave

Originally posted by D.Cobb
Why not? You do, every time you post and pretend that you know English! I never said I know the language, what I said was the kanji for the two was the same. This was told to me by someone that speaks, not only Chinese and Japanese, but also English. Now I would prefer it, if you would go away and learn English as well, so that I can understand your pathetic ramblings a little better.



Humiliated? No!
Aggravated? Yes.

Now go away, you bother me boy!

--Dave

Why you scared?
Haha.. Exactly you said that the kanji of TSD and Karate were the same. THEN YOU and YOU FRIEND ARE SICK.

Hey did you check out the site? Admit it! You are humiliated.

I see, I'm not bothering ok just get out here and research more. This time to a korean pls..:D

Originally posted by D.Cobb
Hey, now that's funny!!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


You can say Toon Ryu 2 ways.
1 is Toe an Ryu and the other is Toe oon Ryu

Originally posted by yentao
Actually the term "Soo" in Tang Soo Do refers to "Shou"- hand. The "Shou" has the same meaning of "Shou" in Chi (Shou) "Sticky Hands" in Wing Chun.

So DaVE! Pls. stop fooling us around. You don't even know Chinese well.

:asian: :asian: :asian: :asian: :asian: :asian: :asian: :asian: :asian:


No it does not.

Shou in Chinese is the kanji for Te in Japanese.

Tang Soo Do, Tang Shou Dao, Kara Te Do all use the exact same kanji.

Originally posted by yentao
Why you scared?
Haha.. Exactly you said that the kanji of TSD and Karate were the same. THEN YOU and YOU FRIEND ARE SICK.

Hey did you check out the site? Admit it! You are humiliated.

I see, I'm not bothering ok just get out here and research more. This time to a korean pls..:D


You need to do more research.............your Chinese language is not good

Originally posted by Rick Tsubota
No it does not.

Shou in Chinese is the kanji for Te in Japanese.

Tang Soo Do, Tang Shou Dao, Kara Te Do all use the exact same kanji.

Do you have any references about these? Can you explain to me with a picture pls? :shrug:

I think I'm not mistaken because I also saw the Chinese term for Tang Soo Do.

Thanks

Here is my reference to show that I'm not fooling around.
AND that my chinese is not bad hahaha.

Meaning of Tang Soo Do (http://www.angelfire.com/ma/alchemydojang/meaningoftsd.html)

Hope you show yours too.

Shie Shie:asian:

I'm also beginning to understand what you mean and why you said that they are the same. It is because of "TE" in karaTE Do and the "Soo" in Tang Soo Do have the same meaning.

The term KARA and TANG are the only words that don't have similarities. I think this is the one that cause D.Cobb disagree with me.

Pls. check this out

Meaning Of TSD (http://www.angelfire.com/ma/alchemydojang/meaningoftsd.html)

Originally posted by yentao
I'm also beginning to understand what you mean and why you said that they are the same. It is because of "TE" in karaTE Do and the "Soo" in Tang Soo Do have the same meaning.

The term KARA and TANG are the only words that don't have similarities. I think this is the one that cause D.Cobb disagree with me.

Pls. check this out

Meaning Of TSD (http://www.angelfire.com/ma/alchemydojang/meaningoftsd.html)


On that webpage they use the Tang kanji which can also be said as kara or as To in Japanese, but in this use it is said as kara. This was the old way to write karate. Now the Japanese use a different kara kanji which means empty.

Ah ok so you mean that the original name of Karatedo "To Te Do"?

Is Karate came from the Tang Dynasty?

We are talking about Tang Soo Do here so can you give examples (similarities) that can make the two arts the same? What style of karate has similarities with Tang Soo Do then?

I know Goju-ryu and Uechi-ryu Karate that only originates in the 1800's

There a lot of histories that say that TSD was founded during the Silla Dynasty and I know that Japanese have not yet invaded Korea at that time. I know that karate styles mostly came from Okinawa and this Okinawans learned Chinese martial arts in Fukien/Fujian province.

Here is one of the histories.
WTSD (www.worldtangsoodo.com/index2.asp?PAGE=general)

Yentao,

Early Japanese karate practitioners used the "Tang" character because to them it represented China. People understood that this was something Chinese when they saw that character. You are correct--most Japanese styles really were organized and began promulgation in the late 1800's.

Many instructors today will try to date their art well before that. I have heard many Okinawan karate instructors say that when Chinese Martial Arts came, they were blended with indigenous Okinawan fighting styles that have existed since ancient times. I don't know if this was true or not: I wasn't there.

I do know that in a sense, you are correct. Korean Martial Arts date back to the Korean "renaissance" era (I forget the name they use for it), in which a group of elite soldiers known as the Taekkyon had already established a Korean Martial Art resembling modern Korean MA. This was most likely the predecessor that most people are referring to when they say that Korean MA pre-date Japanese occupation.

My own knowledge of Korean MA history is fairly limited, but I too have heard that the Japanese influence on Korea during the occupation involved the spreading of several Japanese ideas, one of which was the newly organized Japanese Karate systems. Certainly this must have influenced the Koreans, even if their own methods had been established previously.

The name change in Japan (from "T'ang Hand" to "Empty Hand") happened around this same time period. Japan experienced a period of great distrust of foreign things and ideas, and so instructors changed the name to make it sound more like something "Japanese." Also, they introduced the idea of "Karate-do" instead of "Karate-jutsu."

I am not sure what effect the name changing in Japan had on the Korean Martial Artists, if any. It is certainly likely, though, that they influenced contemporary Korean arts.

~TT

Originally posted by yentao
Ah ok so you mean that the original name of Karatedo "To Te Do"?

Is Karate came from the Tang Dynasty?

We are talking about Tang Soo Do here so can you give examples (similarities) that can make the two arts the same? What style of karate has similarities with Tang Soo Do then?

I know Goju-ryu and Uechi-ryu Karate that only originates in the 1800's

There a lot of histories that say that TSD was founded during the Silla Dynasty and I know that Japanese have not yet invaded Korea at that time. I know that karate styles mostly came from Okinawa and this Okinawans learned Chinese martial arts in Fukien/Fujian province.

Here is one of the histories.
WTSD (www.worldtangsoodo.com/index2.asp?PAGE=general)


Orignal name for karate was either Tode or Todi and can also be said as karate using exact same kanji.
Karate was also called Ryukyu Kempo Tode/karate jutsu.

The To or Tang kanji is the old Japaense word used to say China and did not really mean Tang Dynasty.
Maybe karate came to Okinawa during Tang dynasty in the form of kungfu?

Goju and Uechi are new styles of karate started in the 1900's. Some say they came from people who studied in China but we now know it's not 100% true.

Styles that have similarities to Tang Soo Do are many Shuri styles.

Tang Soo Do and Tae Kwan Do both claim to be from Korea but its funny that they both use kata that were either named after or invented invented by pure Okinawan that only taught in Okinawa.
Pinnan kata for example........


I think you research into Tang soo do is not so deep or maybe you are reading and believing the ultra right korean versions of korean martial arts history

Tang Soo Do uses almost strictly Shotokan Karate kata. These were grouped together by Funakoshi in the early 20th century. Ask anyone on this forum who has studied both TSD and Karate and they will tell you they are virtually the same.

Arnisador helped me research my TKD-Karate-Five Ancestors Fist lineage but, he has now more concisely focused my real curiosities. My TKD forms are born of Karate and Kung Fu heritage with Korean alterations. Arnisador is right though, they don't much look like Kung Fu. Good thread.

white belt

Originally posted by Rick Tsubota
Orignal name for karate was either Tode or Todi and can also be said as karate using exact same kanji.
Karate was also called Ryukyu Kempo Tode/karate jutsu.

The To or Tang kanji is the old Japaense word used to say China and did not really mean Tang Dynasty.
Maybe karate came to Okinawa during Tang dynasty in the form of kungfu?

Goju and Uechi are new styles of karate started in the 1900's. Some say they came from people who studied in China but we now know it's not 100% true.

Styles that have similarities to Tang Soo Do are many Shuri styles.

Tang Soo Do and Tae Kwan Do both claim to be from Korea but its funny that they both use kata that were either named after or invented invented by pure Okinawan that only taught in Okinawa.
Pinnan kata for example........


I think you research into Tang soo do is not so deep or maybe you are reading and believing the ultra right korean versions of korean martial arts history

Well first Tang Soo Do was a korean art of course i'll give more credit on them than the Japanese.

Maybe there is an influence on the style during the Japanese invasion,.

Originally posted by yentao
Well first Tang Soo Do was a korean art of course i'll give more credit on them than the Japanese.

Maybe there is an influence on the style during the Japanese invasion,.



Japanese influence during some Japanese invasion??
I know Japan invaded korean several times over the last 400 years but the Japanese didn't have karate until 1920s so that idea is impossible.

I see no influence by korean artss on okinawan martial arts, physically, written or otherwise.
I do see proof of heavy influence by Japanese and Okinawa arts on so called "old" korean arts like tang soo do, tae kwan do, yudo and kimdo. I know koreans hate to admit they are influnced this way and want people to think they had these arts long before Japan or helped Japan to make these arts but it is not true.

Originally posted by Rick Tsubota
Japanese influence during some Japanese invasion??
I know Japan invaded korean several times over the last 400 years but the Japanese didn't have karate until 1920s so that idea is impossible.

I see no influence by korean artss on okinawan martial arts, physically, written or otherwise.
I do see proof of heavy influence by Japanese and Okinawa arts on so called "old" korean arts like tang soo do, tae kwan do, yudo and kimdo. I know koreans hate to admit they are influnced this way and want people to think they had these arts long before Japan or helped Japan to make these arts but it is not true.

What are you a racist? You said Japanese didn't have karate until 1920s? AHAHAHAHAHA. Get a life.

Please, keep the discussion polite and respectful.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

Originally posted by yentao
What are you a racist? You said Japanese didn't have karate until 1920s? AHAHAHAHAHA. Get a life.


If you read karate's history you can see that karate was introduced to mainland Japan in the 1920's by Mr. Funakoshi and Mr. Motobu and not until then.

You can also read books on Okinawa and Japan's history that is very clear in stating they were 2 different countries.

These two facts are obvious to most people that have read even a small amount of material on the subject of karate.

The relationship between Tang Soo Do and Shotokan is very clear.

First for approximately 50 years before WWII, Korea was conquered by the Japanese, and very horribly abused in the process. Any natural Korean arts were surpressed.

Judo (Korean Yudo) came to Korea and after Funakoshi Ginchin (and a group of other Okinawan Instructors) shared Okinawan Karate in Japan, especially as Shotokan was taught at the Naval War College, it is very likely that it was the Military that were practicing Shotokan in Korea and the likely point of insertion.

Besides the relationship between Tang Soo Do and Karate as terms, the Kata curricula fo Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan is almost identical to Shotokan (abet with some modifications), and most of the kata have names which are also very similar.

Not just TSD, but TKD, when General Choi first published a text on Tae Kwon Do he included all of the Shotokan forms in it along with his new forms (and if you ever see a copy you can see the similarities).

Likewise Hapikido (one group of which) goes back to a Korean training in Daito Ryu Jujutsu.

At the same time, since the war you will not find Korean references of these origins. After all if the Japanese had brutally used your country, your women and your resources for generations why would you want to acknowledge anything you got from them.

Nor should they. That doesn' t change origins, just makes it very muddy water to discuss.

When TKD was in the Seoul Olympics, Japanese competitors faced incredibly hostile Korean audiences. The past isn't forgotten, as much as the Japanese keep pretending it didn't exist.

So what is the truth about original Korean arts, very, very, very hard to determine. But then much of the past of all arts will remain muddy, too.

Pleasantly,

Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu

That last post by Victor was identical in content to all the evidence I have come across. Honest and succinct.

white belt
(TKD instructor and school owner.)

Originally posted by Rick Tsubota
If you read karate's history you can see that karate was introduced to mainland Japan in the 1920's by Mr. Funakoshi and Mr. Motobu and not until then.

You can also read books on Okinawa and Japan's history that is very clear in stating they were 2 different countries.

These two facts are obvious to most people that have read even a small amount of material on the subject of karate.

Really ha why there are a lot of japanese samurai who knows karate back in the 1800's ahemmm... I don't get you at all.:shrug:

If so why there is a similarity in the art of Tang Soo Do and Karate. So your trying to say that the karate first introduced to Korea before mainland Japan? Why then there are a lot more master in korea than that of Japan around the 1920's?

Originally posted by yentao
Really ha why there are a lot of japanese samurai who knows karate back in the 1800's ahemmm... I don't get you at all.:shrug:

If so why there is a similarity in the art of Tang Soo Do and Karate. So your trying to say that the karate first introduced to Korea before mainland Japan? Why then there are a lot more master in korea than that of Japan around the 1920's?

Now THAT is an interesting statement! Could you please give us the specific source or sources of material that proves more TSD / Karate masters were present in Korea than Japan (Okinawa too?) around the 1920's? That is a claim I have never come across. History is an interesting subject especially when concerning lineage.

white belt

Check this site http://www.worldtangsoodo.com/ I don't get it at all. Why there is a Tang Soo Do in Korea? While Karate was still not recognized in mainland Japan?

Appreciate the web site. Don't seem to see an icon or page to click onto showing traceable lineage for the head of this association (?). The Okinawans / Japanese do a pretty good job of showing ancestry that goes back to China for their systems. Any such thing, using names, for TSD going back to the 19th century?

white belt

Perhaps the Tang Soo Do discussion should be moved to that forum (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=62)?

Ok

Where Huang Kee's Tang Soo Do came from? Why is the art become so known so quickly? I mean if the art is introduced around the 1900's to korea then there should be not enough practitioners in Tang Soo Do 1950's?

Originally posted by arnisador
Perhaps the Tang Soo Do discussion should be moved to that forum (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=62)? :o

I agree. This discussion is fruitless concerning debts to other national lineage. Cross polinating happens. Some would have people believe that African Americans invented Western Boxing just because they presently participate in disproportionate numbers compared to other ethnic groups. Mike Tyson owes a debt to Jack Dempsey. Doesn't make Tyson's ability any less valid. Hwang Kee learned Karate. Same parallel.

The physical text of kata / hyung is a separate matter. If patterns represent the heart of a system, then borrowed patterns imply much as far as influence. The Kung Fu patterns structures that I have seen just don't look similar overall to Karate's. Yet the Karate practicioners openly show a respectful indebtedness. The Korean patterns on the other hand show a CLOSE similarity to many of various Karate patterns. The Koreans are reluctant to admit, for the most part, any debt to the Okinawan / Japanese. Maybe if the Chinese had conquered the Japanese, instead of vice versa, the Japanese would be taking the same revisionist view toward supposed homogenous indiginous martial art as the Koreans. Please keep in mind that I am a TKD instructor. The patterns question has thus far best been illuminated to me by Arnisador having me pick up a book titled "FIVE ANCESTORS FIST KUNG FU" by A.L. Co. Beyond that, I also am waiting for a more revealing answer to Arnisador's original question.

white belt

Really you bought a book about Ngo Cho Kun? So what do you think of the book?

Originally posted by white belt
I also am waiting for a more revealing answer to Arnisador's original question.

I still am also! The Five Ancestors Fist material is thought-provoking, but I think the original question has a good answer--I am not quite sure what it is though!

A related question is, Why is kobudo not the study of Chinese weapons? (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1603)

Originally posted by yentao
Really you bought a book about Ngo Cho Kun? So what do you think of the book?
I am pleased with the book. Arnisador made a good suggestion. The history was interesting and there are photos showing individual positions that most definitely resemble finished positions in the Okinawan/Japanese/Korean patterns. The "sets" performed are pretty much "stationary" in position though, which adds even more mystery to Arnisador's query.

white belt

I know that Alexander L. Co has some videos out too:
http://www.bakbakan.com/video-ac.htm

I've never seen them unfortunately.

Originally posted by white belt
I am pleased with the book. Arnisador made a good suggestion. The history was interesting and there are photos showing individual positions that most definitely resemble finished positions in the Okinawan/Japanese/Korean patterns. The "sets" performed are pretty much "stationary" in position though, which adds even more mystery to Arnisador's query.

white belt

Don't worry I'll tell Alex Co about your comments. Hey if you want to know something about it feel free to ask I'll be happy to assist you.

Originally posted by arnisador
I know that Alexander L. Co has some videos out too:
http://www.bakbakan.com/video-ac.htm

I've never seen them unfortunately.

Did you bought one?

No.

From my experience with karate, tkd and kung fu:
Yes many of the basic stances are the same, There is probably more variation in styles of kung fu than styles of karate.

The main reason I think kung fu looks different from karate in general is the training is different!! THe koreans and japanese have passed on karate/ tkd/ tsd with a different kind of movement and rythm from many styles of kung fu. Perhaps the heavy military connection and influence in karate, along with the structure of japanese society, samurai culture has a great deal to do with it. Go into a karate school and you may notice an almost militaristic degree of formality and training. Internalization may also not be trained or emphasied as early in a students training as in some chinese arts. Aikido has more of a chinese/ kung fu flow to it than some of the karate I have seen, ( but thats another story.)
Karate just took what kung fu it has in it in a different direction based on cultural influences. An athlete that plays a team sport in a strcutured or school league will play it differently than an athlete who has been playing in pickup games. They both could have the same amount of skill but they will have a different rythm to thier game.

Kung fu is the term westerners use for chinese martial arts where as karate is japanese. This is a very basic explination but really the term kung fu is wrong for chinese arts as im sure many know.

As many of you have mentioned in this thread, many if not most Karate schools have rigid discipline to an almost militaristic degree. I believe this was due to several factors, including but not limited to the following:

- the inclusion of "tode" as part of the physical education curriculum in schools
- the development of modern Karate at the height of Japanese imperialistic ideals oppressing anything foreign (and yes, the Ryukyuan culture was foreign to the Japanese)
- the change from "jutsu" to a "do", i.e. development of self rather than development of skills in fighting.

As suggested the Okinawan Islands and its various arts were heavily influenced by the Chinese. When the the Chinese arts (Kenfat / Chuan Fa) were transplanted to the Ryukyu archipelago the Chinese influence were much stronger than that of the Japanese... Having said that, the Japanese attitude toward training (as well as the introduction of dogi etc) were introduced after the Meiji restoration when the attitude of "Yamato damashii" (Japanese spirit) was very strong. So these things were not originally introduced by the Okinawan people...


Jujutsu, is only Japanese by virtue of the fact that it was created by some samurai, that travelled to Okinawa, and studied the grappling portion of Kempo, and returned to Japan and taught it as a stand alone art. ~Dave

I hope you are kidding. The Japanese martial arts have a heritage beyond the introduction of Tode to the Ryukyu Islands.
There is evidence that jujutsu arts were developed out of Chinese influences from Chinese nationals travelling to Japan, but what you have suggested would be in the minority and in fairly recent history if anything...


Really ha why there are a lot of japanese samurai who knows karate back in the 1800's ahemmm... I don't get you at all. ~yentao

I don't think many samurai knew karate back in the 1800's. If any they would have been from the Satsuma region of Japan... I think you need to do some more research. :shrug:

KG

Just briefly to add to or rather explain the following comment I made in my earlier post: "the change from 'jutsu' to a 'do', i.e. development of self rather than development of skills in fighting"

This is somewhat of a paradigm shift in thought process as to how an art is studied (and further develop). The Japanese have a phrase "Ningen Keisei", character building which I feel is central to the study of budo. I mentioned "Yamato damashii" in my earlier post, which would refer to the building of the Japanese spirit, however Ningen Keisei is different from this.
Let me explain, the main principle of Ningen Keisei is perseverance, i.e. never giving up (even when discouraged). Your training ultimately is about unceasing training... How you practice the art rather than what one practices is the primary purpose of training. So in essence the martial viability is of little consequence, hence the drift in the performance of kata. Of course this would be more true of Japanese Karate than Okinawan Karate but perhaps some of this thought process may have carried over to Okinawa?

KG

Originally posted by someguy
Kung fu is the term westerners use for chinese martial arts where as karate is japanese. This is a very basic explination but really the term kung fu is wrong for chinese arts as im sure many know.
Its not wrong to call chinese arts kung fu as long as you realize that a chef can be considered kung fu, or a great teacher (on any subject) can be considered kung fu. Kung fu is just a direction not a thing.

Originally posted by someguy
Kung fu is the term westerners use for chinese martial arts where as karate is japanese. This is a very basic explination but really the term kung fu is wrong for chinese arts as im sure many know.

Kung fu (Khong Fu) means hard work in Chinese. We Hokkian call it kok sut.

Kempo Guy, yeah i'm working on it. I'll try to send you some source.

I also wonder sometimes why the Okinawans adopted Southern Chinese Kung Fu but they don't seem to have made an Okinawan form of Tai Chi.

I know kung fu means hard work. What I am saying is that it is not the martial art its self. In the west many call a chinese martial art kung fu. It is hard work I know. But kung fu is not the style. Maybe that clarifies what I am saying abit better.

I also wonder sometimes why the Okinawans adopted Southern Chinese Kung Fu but they don't seem to have made an Okinawan form of Tai Chi.

From my limited understanding of Okinawan Karate history most of the systems that took root in the Ryukyu Islands were systems developed in the Fukien province of China. Tai Ji was developed in interior China (around Henan province) which could explain the lack of influence of Tai Ji on Okinawan arts.

KG

Originally posted by Kempo Guy
From my limited understanding of Okinawan Karate history most of the systems that took root in the Ryukyu Islands were systems developed in the Fukien province of China.

Yes, I suppose this is it--but Tai Chi seems so widespread nowadays. I thought perhaps it was pretty widespread then too.

Anyone else have thoughts on this?

Although tai chi is pretty widespread right now I dont beleive it was widespread back then , and if i remember correctly from a book i read on chen tai chi, it was originally a familiy/ villiage style so it definitely wouldnt be known to the general public, even at that time.

See also:
http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22640

But what did the Okinawans add or change that made it possible for me to reliably distinguish between the karate and kung fu--as I certainly feel I can!--and where did that knowledge come from? And, really--why did they change it? It sounds as if they originally practiced literal kung fu.


they added the local unarmed combat techniques and sytems, and removed some of the movements to fit their stature and strenth. the Okinawans are slightly larger then the chinese on averidge, and stocky compared to most chinese. they are slighty smaller then most japanese ( at least at that time. the stature diferences changed a large amount after WWII) so they took the techniques that worked for them from the local systems and mixed in the chinese systems and then refined it to work for them in a situation where to loose the fight was to die most of the time. meany of the chinese systems as I understand it, were designed with the smaller stature that meany chinese had to face larger attacker. the okinawans decided as meany of the attackers where as often as not armed, and they were forbiden weapons, to go for broke so to speak and do maxumum damage fast, but keep the soft in it too. so over the centurys the things that they did not like or did not work well for them were modified to what did work. the end result was Karate. and that is why it is something you can see. it was refined to face armed attackers in the feilds and on the fishing boats and in the bars of okinawa. and the okinawans had trade with other cultures more so then most chinese.

I also wonder sometimes why the Okinawans adopted Southern Chinese Kung Fu but they don't seem to have made an Okinawan form of Tai Chi.


becouse the fukuin pravance was near to the islands of the Ryukyu islands and they had trade with the chinese of that provance. northern china for instance was a long way to go comparitivly. beside the southern provance of fukue had similer topography and conditions.. boats, rice feilds and such. so the arts that developed there were not only close, but well adapted to the conditions of Okinawa compared to the northern systems.
I dont know where Tai Chi came out of, but I do know that it is a long fist system, and I understand that the long fist systems are usualy at least northern.

I also wonder sometimes why the Okinawans adopted Southern Chinese Kung Fu but they don't seem to have made an Okinawan form of Tai Chi.

If I may comment. In Okinawan GoJu there are12 kata. The Okinawans had an art and the reason they went to China was to improve on it and they did my incorporating some of the internal concepts that the Chinese readily had . These concepts and principles can be seen in Tai Chi and Shaolin White Crane when compared with the inner structure of Sanchin. Sanchin, as we know Sanchin kata, is not about moves, but the concepts and principles that are incorporated when the moves are done correctly. As I have mentioned in other posts, what we learn in Sanchin are proper breath, movement, and structure and how they relate to each other, and this is the core principles that we carry into all other kata. As we know Martial arts, karate, and all other forms of self defense were invented to kill people and to win at all cost. And it is my belief that all of this is within the kata. Yes the Te of Okinawa was very strong and effective but those trips to China over many years produced something that complemented te. Chojun Miyagi felt so strongly about it that he blended the internal with the external and came up with GoJu, hard/soft, and I for one am glad he did. As for Northern Styles and Southern Styles we categorize it by saying that Goju is a close in fighting art and that Northern styles emphasize long range and Southern styles generally emphasize short range in fighting. The end result is once you add to much sport to the mix all above goes out the window. I will sum Karate up in one word (kata). I don’t want to bring a knife to a gun fight and I also don’t want to bring sports concepts to a life and death situation. They didn't then and I don't now. Man I said a lot I sure hope I am posting in the right thread. :)

Why is math different from English? Why is boxing different from judo?

Karate is different cause it comes from Chuck Norris an Kung Fu is what Chuck studied form Bruce Lee! Enough, said.

Kung Fu is ancient and has/had at least 3000 independant styles. Most masters would learn many styles or at least more than one. Even so, only a small portion of what kung fu is/was was introduced to okinawa by the chinese immigrants. The chinese living in okinawa taught their systems of fighting which they adapted the okinawan te systems with. During the japanese occupation, not only were weapons outlawed, karate had to be practiced in secret otherwise the "troublemakers" would be arrested (and executed...). There are many styles of karate as well and many masters also went to china to further their knowledge. Then there were the Funakoshi "japanesation" and popularization of the versions he brought back to japan. Upon first inspection, I find the okinawan systems to look much more like kung fu than their japanese counterparts. In the end, karate is an adaptation of the old te systems, chinese kung fu and japanese adaptation(for japanese karate) wheras kung fu is kung fu. Kung fu means hard work and karate means empty hand (or chinese hand). They both come from the human body (the mind is a part of the body).

I would pretty much say that the main difference in Australia, not Japan where I am now, is that you see far more fat Aussie "karate" instructors than "kung fu" instructors. not a slight on either art, just those particular ppl!