I just learned a bo form called 'shushi no kun sho' . I believe the one I was taught might have been changed slightly from the original. I write this because I have seen it done other ways. Just as a curiousity, I would like to know how to do the original.

I am interested in learning other traditional bo forms as well. I know there is 'shushi no kon dai' etc. A resource you could point me to would be great. My instructor is very open to his students exploring this stuff on our own.

Thank you for your time.
-Jack

In Fumio Demura's 1976 book "Bo: Karate Weapon of Self-defense" he lists a number of bo kata, starting with Shushi-No-Kon-Dai and Shushi-No-Kon-Sho. He implies that Shushi is a proper name, the developer of the form; kon is a synonym for bo, hence, roughly, Shushi's Greater Bo Kata and Shushi's Minor Bo Kata, respectively. At the end of the book he presents Shushi-No-Kon-Sho pictorially.

The book is available at Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0897500199/qid=1017555370/sr=2-2/ref=sr_2_2/104-4044683-1214358

It is also available together with a video.

Hi there,

We the members of the IOKA (UK), have a kata called Shushi No Kon. Though I believe that this is entirely different to the one that you practice. A video of this kata is obtainable from Century Martial Arts (by Mikio Nishiuchi ), look for Panther Videos.

Have you done the Bunkai, for your kata? We will be doing a demonstration in Sheffield early July, can't wait :D

i have learned shushi no kun also through shotokan. i have also learned several different staff forms through TSD. it is a remarkable weapon. simple yet so complex.

This kata is probably of one the oldest. There are many variations either under "Dai" or "Sho" or from school to school. Some instructors have also put their personal signature on the kata as well. this is common practice in Okinawa but not in Japan.

The oldest form of this Kata is Shushi no Kon and belongs to Shinpo Matayoshi group and can be found through Nishiuchi's (sp?) tapes.

FYI, the Kata described in Demura sensei's book under the heading of "Shushi no kon Sho", is actually a form of "Koshiki shushi no Kon" and the name is a misprint.

Isshin Ryu group also practice a very old version of this Kata "Shishi no Kon no Dai", Yes different spelling, practiced and taught at times by Shinken Taira, Shimabuku Sensei's Kobudo instructor.

I hope that I was helpful.

Respectfully,

:asian:

I have a couple of tapes that show a few kata's and they go over the bunkai for each movement. One thing I have notice, is they don't mention striking the hands. I know this would be difficult to practice. But my though came from escrima where they practice defanging the snake. I figure the bo and escrima are very similar and what you can do with one you should be able to do with the other. Is this correct thinking or am I wrong, any input would be great.
Bob :asian:

In FMA we use the sabat (staff) to strike the hands, but also in ways similar to what you'd see in Okinawan bo systems.

I'm not familiar with specific bo kata, so you'll have to forgive me. However, I've seen specific techniques where, after making contact with the other opponent's staff, you slide yours down the length of his bo, striking the hands. This will also work if your opponent has a bo and you have tonfa, sai, kama, etc...just slide down the bo and hit the hands.

Personally, I like the FMA idea of zoning and hitting the hands directly.

Cthulhu

How important is it to learn bo kata's. Or should you be more concern with knowing how to defend from different angles. My approach here is more from the escrima, where they have no kata's that I know of. It is base off what angle they are attacking and how your are holding the stick. Also would one kata (Shu shi no kon) be enough or should one learn more than one kata.
Bob :asian:

One of my favorite bo against bo takedowns is, after a block and dodge, grab the other person's bo and your bo together, crunching their hands between. This is great for manipulating them off balance and into throws and counterjoints, but be careful when training! Too much crunchage=pain >_<

On the kata end, I can't really give much help, as we do freeform kata. But even if your system doesn't do freeform kata, it might be something good to practice on your own, to develop good flow and visualization and handling and all that.

I have a bo-related question, so hopefully it's okay to throw it out in this thread. What is the weight range for the bos that you use? I have my own that is quite comfortable for my size, but at my school there's a bo tucked away which I believe is made out of balsa wood. It's extremely light and incredibly difficult to work with. Do you find lighter or heavier bos easier to work with? Do you think it'd be a good exercise to work with a range of much heavier and much lighter bos than you normally use?

The bo I use is nothing special. It is a fighting bo that I order from Century. It is 6ft. with tapper ends. When I test for 3rd black my instructor did not what us to perform kata's. He what us to demostrate how to use the bo. Different blocks strikes etc. So I quest this would be free form.
Bob :asian:

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

The bo I use is nothing special. It is a fighting bo that I order from Century. It is 6ft. with tapper ends. When I test for 3rd black my instructor did not what us to perform kata's. He what us to demostrate how to use the bo. Different blocks strikes etc. So I quest this would be free form.
Bob :asian:


Just out of curiosity................. what is the difference between a "fighting bo" and a non "fighting bo" and why are they different?

RyuShikan,

A fighting bo is used for the actual application of the techniques, be it bunkai, two man sets, etc. It is usually made out of a stronger wood that can withstand some punishment.

A Kata bo is used solely to perform kata, be it at a tournament or practice, so it is free of dings and splinters. It is usually lighter and made out of a more elegant wood.

:asian:

As you know, in most traditional systems, techniques are transmitted through Kata. So in my opinion, it is important to select a few bo kata with diverse techniques from different schools of bojutsu. Of course basics (kihon) and Hojo Undo are equally if not more important to develop timing, power, snap, and stamina.

:asian:

You beat me to the draw on the difference on the fighting and kata bo's. Also thanks on the info on the kata's. Here is another question? I have theses tapes with 4 different kata's. Should someone learn all 4 or would 1 or 2 be the best. The kata's are Shu shi no kon, Saku Gawa no kon, Cho un no kon, Tsu ken no kon.
Bob :asian:

Originally posted by kenmpoka

RyuShikan,

A fighting bo is used for the actual application of the techniques, be it bunkai, two man sets, etc. It is usually made out of a stronger wood that can withstand some punishment.

A Kata bo is used solely to perform kata, be it at a tournament or practice, so it is free of dings and splinters. It is usually lighter and made out of a more elegant wood.

:asian:


I guess I use a "fighting bo" for both since mine is pretty sturdy and gets beat on pretty hard and I use the same one for kata.

Having a "competition bo" for kata competitions at tournaments is not uncommon it seems. I've seen colored bos, multi-colored ones, see-through plexiglass--all of them light for speed.

I don't actually like it--I'd rather see them doing the form with something that wouldn't break in an actual fight and would have some impact when it hit--but I see it often.

Originally posted by arnisador

Having a "competition bo" for kata competitions at tournaments is not uncommon it seems. I've seen colored bos, multi-colored ones, see-through plexiglass--all of them light for speed.

I don't actually like it--I'd rather see them doing the form with something that wouldn't break in an actual fight and would have some impact when it hit--but I see it often.

I agree.
I think using a lighter bo for kata/tournaments is kind of a cop-out since you only use it for show and "technically" it is not a weapon that you can or do actually use.

I saw one guy at a demo that had a pencil thin bo that seemed to be made out of balsa wood it was so light.

The ones that you mentioned are from "Matayoshi" group. Almost all systems start with Shushi no Kon or a variation of. It is a good kata to build strong basics. Sakugawa and Choun are definitely a must. Tsuken Bo a good kata to develop snap and speed.

Just make sure you don't rush through learning them all at once. Although at the surface they look similar, they have different characteristics and timing. Give a minimum of three months of solid practice between each. Also look into Taira, Yamani Ryu, and Ufuchikuden systems to expand your knowledge.

It is always best to learn under a qualified instructor if you have access to one. It is also better to find an instructor that teaches Kobudo as his/her primary art as oppose to a karate teacher that teaches Kobudo as well.

Btw, where do you live?

:asian:

I agree with both of you gentlemen in regards to a so called tooth pick bo. A kata bo should mainly be free of dings and splinters.

In a lot of open tournaments you see the competitors showing off with a lot of fancy and speedy moves that would not be possible with a proper traditional bo.

:asian:

If they were making a case that a thin bo is faster--which it is--and that that conferred an advantage in combat that outweighed the disadvantages of a weaker strike/block due to the lack of heft and the possibility of it breaking, I wouldn't mind. In FMA we often use very thin and light sticks for light contact sparring, but everyone uses heavier sticks for "real" fighting. I've whacked people hard with the rattan sticks and had them keep coming, albeit now sporting a sizeable bruise--where a hardwood stick would have broken something.

we use waxwood staffs. i see my new modern wushu partners use some pretty skinny ones. they bend a little more so i guess they are better for show. it does seem to spin faster.
my staff is about 50% thicker in diameter, i will always use one like this.

are great, very sturdy and light. Unfortunately not officially allowed for
Okinawan Systems. They usually use red or white Oak, hickory, Ash, purple Heart, and Jatoba (great wood) to name a few.

:asian:

I suppose I can understand lighter bos being more speedy, but for me, handling that balsa wood bo proved to be more difficult for me to work with at all. I suppose I just wasn't used to the physics of it, I felt like it was too light to get decent momentum out of.

I don't want to throw this thread *completely* off topic, but it did start me wondering about differences in standard weapons and tournament or show weapons. My school is noncompetitive, so i don't really know much about the differences that would arise. Should I start another thread?

ive seen some extremely creative nunchaku kata recently. the performer was really cutting loose with some acrobatic stuff, but never let up with the nunchaku, they just kept spinning and spinning...

are they hardwood or what?

Originally posted by Wertle

Should I start another thread?

Perhaps, but it seems to me that this is reasonable thread drift.

I've seen demos with glow-in-the-dark or light-up nunchaku. Cool, I must admit. Give me wooden chucks with beveled edges though.

Okinawans also make Bo's, Eku and other wood weapons out of "Hinoki". I think it is a kind of Cypress, not sure though, anyway it is light and strong and makes excellent material for a Bo.

Originally posted by kenmpoka


Btw, where do you live?

:asian:
Kenmpoka, I live in Effingham, Il which is south central Illinois. To make a long story short BFE. Which for you that don't know what BFE stands for Boone F@#k Egypt.
Bob :rofl:

I'm in Terre Haute--you're the big city.

Everyone says we have to head that way and try Richard's Farm for dinner. We went shopping in Effingham once but haven't been back I'm afraid.

Originally posted by arnisador

I'm in Terre Haute--you're the big city.

Everyone says we have to head that way and try Richard's Farm for dinner. We went shopping in Effingham once but haven't been back I'm afraid.
Hey Arnisador I usually go over to Terre Haute every two weeks to pick up my 16 year old Daughter. She lives in Indy. You guys are going to have to come up with some kind of Giant Odor eaters. You get to the Wabash River and it smell like being inside porta potty after it has sit for two weeks. Hey if you ever come back to the big city give me a call maybe we can work out or at lest meet.
Bob:D

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

You guys are going to have to come up with some kind of Giant Odor eaters. You get to the Wabash River and it smell like being inside porta potty after it has sit for two weeks.

Some days it's worse than others, but I know people who introduce themselves by saying "I've lived here so long I longer notice the smell." But I'm on the far east side, near Rte. 46, so I don't have to suffer it (except when I go to my JKD/BJJ class which is right near the mall at Exit 7).


Hey if you ever come back to the big city give me a call maybe we can work out or at lest meet.

I'd like that! Let me know if you're having any interesting people or big names in for seminars. I'll be bringing Tim Hartman to Terre Haute at some point. You saw there's a Sayoc Kali seminar coming up in Bloomington on 24 August?

Originally posted by theneuhauser

ive seen some extremely creative nunchaku kata recently. the performer was really cutting loose with some acrobatic stuff, but never let up with the nunchaku, they just kept spinning and spinning...

are they hardwood or what?

This fascination with spinning nunchaku seems to have stemmed from Enter the Dragon and B.Lee.
The nunchaku are used for spinning and striking but are more of a trapping weapon than a hitting weapon.
Ever use the Nunchaku to hit something like a heavy bag?
The end flys back at you half the time..............not the most ideal weapon for striking. Which should make one think that there intent was something else. But if you demonstrate them as they were originally intended you could put someone to sleep, therefore we get the "flaming Ninja chcucks" with aerobics and gymnastics thrown in. I have always said if I could teach a baton twirler to use Nunchaku she would win every "chop socky" style tournament around.

Originally posted by Wertle


I don't want to throw this thread *completely* off topic, but it did start me wondering about differences in standard weapons and tournament or show weapons. My school is noncompetitive, so i don't really know much about the differences that would arise. Should I start another thread?


By noncompetitive do you mean you don't spar or don't do tournaments?

We do full contact sparring with Bos, and all sorts weapons so I am not really interested in how pretty they look just as long as they are tough enough to keep me from getting hit and hitting the other guy.

By noncompetitive do you mean you don't spar or don't do tournaments?

Neither, though I've spectated tournaments that friends were involved in, so there were some things I was curious about.

One thing I was particularly curious about was the flags on Chinese Broadswords and chainwhips. Do they have a practical purpose or are they just so that they can be seen better?

Full contact Bo sparring? Ouch! What kind of equipment and rules go along with that? I don't know much in the way of full contact sparring rules. Do people get injured often?

Originally posted by Wertle


One thing I was particularly curious about was the flags on Chinese Broadswords and chainwhips. Do they have a practical purpose or are they just so that they can be seen better?

Good question...........sorry I don't know the answer.

Originally posted by Wertle

Full contact Bo sparring? Ouch! What kind of equipment and rules go along with that? I don't know much in the way of full contact sparring rules. Do people get injured often?

We use kendo like equipment.
The Bo sparring is not so bad but the Tanbo (2 sticks like Arnis) sparring is brutal.......2 weapons to watch and 2 weapons to get hit by.

Originally posted by Wertle

I've spectated tournaments

I can't believe that you just verbed "spectator".


One thing I was particularly curious about was the flags on Chinese Broadswords and chainwhips. Do they have a practical purpose or are they just so that they can be seen better?


See also this thread:
http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1038

The discussion of tassels starts midway down the first page.

thanks! And sorry about the grammer, I have a nasty habit of making nouns into verbs that were never meant to be. You should see what I do to adverbs! x_x

Originally posted by Wertle

thanks! And sorry about the grammer, I have a nasty habit of making nouns into verbs that were never meant to be. You should see what I do to adverbs! x_x

My parents are famous for this ... "Can I have a cookie?" "I'll
cookie you, mister" heheheh

Originally posted by RyuShiKan



We use kendo like equipment.
The Bo sparring is not so bad but the Tanbo (2 sticks like Arnis) sparring is brutal.......2 weapons to watch and 2 weapons to get hit by.
What is the difference in length of the Tanbo and Hanbo. Also is there different kata's for each of these weapons or do they use Bo kata's for both of these weapons.
Bob :asian:

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu


What is the difference in length of the Tanbo and Hanbo. Also is there different kata's for each of these weapons or do they use Bo kata's for both of these weapons.
Bob :asian:


I wouldn't know anything about a Hanbo, that is some of "Ninja" thing.

Tanbo are different length depending on your size.
There are several Kata for Tanbo in our system that have no connection to the Bo kata.

a hanbo just a smaller stick. The ones we use are just longer than the length of your forearm (though i need a new one, I believe my mother turned it into a towel rack) x_x

I've never heard of it being associated with ninja, I just thought it was a stick.

Originally posted by Wertle


I've never heard of it being associated with ninja, I just thought it was a stick.


I have several friends from the Bukinkan that use Hanbo.