Take out the old & bring in the new

[terryl965]

Why have so many schools that teach Tae Kwon Do stop teaching the self defense aspect of the art. I mean joint lock and take downs and real life self defense, not that show me stuff, you see at every tournament....God Bless America . http://martialtalk.com/forum/images/smilies/Eyecrazy.gif

[MountainSage]

I can only give an opinion about self-defense in general, not directly adressing TKD programs. The following is a general overview of a website I saw on the internet, I think a BJJ school. In this era the best self-defense is learning how to sprint. Most attacks you'll never see coming and a weapon will be involved. All the joint locks and fancy takedowns are going to be next to useless in real life because the situation happen so quickly and with no rhyme or reason you'll have a split second. My advice is a good block/ punch, fast legs, and scream like a gut shot sow. That should cover most situations and be aware of your surrounding at all times.

Mountainsage

[Touch Of Death]

Why have so many schools that teach Tae Kwon Do stop teaching the self defense aspect of the art. I mean joint lock and take downs and real life self defense, not that show me stuff, you see at every tournament....God Bless America . http://martialtalk.com/forum/images/smilies/Eyecrazy.gifJoint locks and takedowns are effective; however, people tend to get injured when they practice. My best guess is that a lot of instructors avoid the hassle and push what sells. I disagree with Mountain Sage. I think a take down will end the fight just as quick as a kick or a punch. We have a rule in our school; you really need to master falling before you learn to throw; because, theoreticly the other students will be throwing you as you learn to throw them. It is not all that uncommon for a student to break his or her wrist during a takedown excercise. Sucks to be them :uhyeah:
Sean

[TigerWoman]

Why have so many schools that teach Tae Kwon Do stop teaching the self defense aspect of the art. I mean joint lock and take downs and real life self defense, not that show me stuff, you see at every tournament....God Bless America . http://martialtalk.com/forum/images/smilies/Eyecrazy.gif

We do practice joint locks, some takedowns, some chokes etc. during class. Real life, throwing, no. We have our share of injuries from sparring and we have gear on then. No, for self defense, we practice to do the most harm–groin, knee, nose/septum, neck, elbow, eye gouge, ear pop, etc. and we practice hard, fast and accurate.

Not much point to breaking wrists and arms in practice, especially the older people. I broke a wrist as a teenager and it didn't mend right then. Can't really use it much as a weapon now. I have to do everything with my left.

Tournament stuff is just that - just to show off breaking power. or technique. But every kick in TKD can be used in self defense. Time and a place for everything. Are you Terry, teaching as in real life? If so, how many injuries do you get? How many students do you retain-not a question, because I know alot of colored belts don't come back when they get a serious injury.

[Kodanjaclay]

I have to differ with you on this one. As a someone who is well versed in biting mat in Hapkido, I can say that I don't think joint locks lend themselves to injure anymore than punching or kicking.

I think that there was a trend here to focus on "simplified TKD" and today we are reaping the results of that rather poor investment.

[Aikikitty]

We have a rule in our school; you really need to master falling before you learn to throw; because, theoreticly the other students will be throwing you as you learn to throw them.

:lurk: I'm sorry to lurk in here when I have absolutely no TKD experience. I just wanted to add my two cents that I agree with the gentleman whom I quoted above. A lot of Aikido is joint locks and throws and it's very important for new people to know how to fall or go down (especially with the throws). Because of that, nearly all of the new people who come in hurt their head/shoulders trying to learn how to roll and they don't come back. :( The rolls and the soreness turns a lot of people off. :(

I also agree with Kodanjaclay. When we practice the joint locks, the person we're doing it on taps/slaps either the mat or their leg when it starts to hurt too much and then nage (the person doing it) lets go or moves to complete the technique. After nearly 4 years, I've never seen anyone get hurt (other than just the occasional soreness and we really go at it sometimes) and never seen anyone in class break something. We have an old school TKD black belt in our class who was shocked when he first saw us practice those techniques. He told me the way he was trained in those joint locks, the techniques would break arms/wrists/maimed people, etc. We could do that (and might in real life situations) but then we wouldn't be able to play with our friends anymore. Anyway, the point that I'm finally coming to, is that I think anybody can learn how to do the joint locks themselves--even if they leave out the falls. It just depends how they learn it.

(I also agree that probably the best way out of a fight is to run---but if you aren't able to do so....)

Robyn :asian:

[TigerWoman]

Kodanjaclay, you are right about that. Joint locks practiced carefully don't injure. Well I did have a student who had carpal tunnel and she couldn't handle any type of manipulation but she was an exception. I was just thinking of Terry wanting to do self defense more REAL–faster, harder, throws, takedowns. In that aspect, I do think there would be alot more injuries than sparring where you have all the protective gear on. I think it would be hard to practice it real, with that chestgear and headcage etc. And the reason I got my wrist broken as a teenager is because, I reached back and it took my weight and crumpled. Alot more unexpected injuries happen when it gets closer to real fighting. That's what I was trying to say. :asian:

[terryl965]

Kodanjaclay, you are right about that. Joint locks practiced carefully don't injure. Well I did have a student who had carpal tunnel and she couldn't handle any type of manipulation but she was an exception. I was just thinking of Terry wanting to do self defense more REAL–faster, harder, throws, takedowns. In that aspect, I do think there would be alot more injuries than sparring where you have all the protective gear on. I think it would be hard to practice it real, with that chestgear and headcage etc. And the reason I got my wrist broken as a teenager is because, I reached back and it took my weight and crumpled. Alot more unexpected injuries happen when it gets closer to real fighting. That's what I was trying to say. :asian:TigarWoman I mean no dis-respect here but the one's that really get hurt in the long run are the students that train without any physical take downs or joint locks and then try to use it in a real life stituation and finds out that they never really understood how that particilar manuver really worked in the first place,, I believe we as instructors need not give false hope to any student that he or she can defend them self without the proper techniques, and I beleve you can teach this by applaying some pressure on those joints so they can actually see how they work.... God Bless America

[MichiganTKD]

Modern Olympic-style Tae Kwon Do does not have joint locks because it is designed to earn points and win tournaments. Traditional old-school Tae Kwon Do will have joint locks, take downs, sweeps etc. However, I believe there should be several conditions to practicing (and yes, they are helpful to know in certain situations):

1. Young kids should NOT practice them. It would be very easy, given the softness of a child's developing bones, to break or dislocate his or her arm, elbow, or shoulder.

2. If possible, these techniques should be practiced on pads or mats to minimize injury. Especially if doing throws or sweeps, practing on a hard floor is definitely not recommended.

3. Students should understand how to fall, roll, and absorb locks before practicing them. It goes without saying these techniques should be reserved for higher students-red and black belts.

[terryl965]

Modern Olympic-style Tae Kwon Do does not have joint locks because it is designed to earn points and win tournaments. Traditional old-school Tae Kwon Do will have joint locks, take downs, sweeps etc. However, I believe there should be several conditions to practicing (and yes, they are helpful to know in certain situations):

1. Young kids should NOT practice them. It would be very easy, given the softness of a child's developing bones, to break or dislocate his or her arm, elbow, or shoulder.

2. If possible, these techniques should be practiced on pads or mats to minimize injury. Especially if doing throws or sweeps, practing on a hard floor is definitely not recommended.

3. Students should understand how to fall, roll, and absorb locks before practicing them. It goes without saying these techniques should be reserved for higher students-red and black belts. As always Michigan TKD you are able to bribg the right amount of good advise to us all.. God Bless You and America

[Touch Of Death]

Modern Olympic-style Tae Kwon Do does not have joint locks because it is designed to earn points and win tournaments. Traditional old-school Tae Kwon Do will have joint locks, take downs, sweeps etc. However, I believe there should be several conditions to practicing (and yes, they are helpful to know in certain situations):

1. Young kids should NOT practice them. It would be very easy, given the softness of a child's developing bones, to break or dislocate his or her arm, elbow, or shoulder.

2. If possible, these techniques should be practiced on pads or mats to minimize injury. Especially if doing throws or sweeps, practing on a hard floor is definitely not recommended.

3. Students should understand how to fall, roll, and absorb locks before practicing them. It goes without saying these techniques should be reserved for higher students-red and black belts.Our school is not Tae Kwon Do, I will admit, but waiting to teach the art until they reach black belt is sort of counter productive; because, then you have black belts walking around that only know kick punch stuff. We have white belts learning to fall from the get go, but our students should be able to undergo a take down at purple(mid belt). I must admit being thrown is upperbelt stuff.
Sean

[MichiganTKD]

I don't think students should learn joint locks, throws, sweeps, and takedowns until at least red belt because they will have their hands full learning basics, forms, steps, and the other aspects of Tae Kwon Do to have to worry about the above. Also, until they understand proper mechanics, stances, and movement, manifested through basics practice, it will be difficult to properly execute these techniques.
This is why I dislike teaching strictly self defense to non-Tae kwon Do students. Unless they have the foundation learned through basic training, it would be very difficult to properly execute these techniques.

[TigerWoman]

I don't think students should learn joint locks, throws, sweeps, and takedowns until at least red belt because they will have their hands full learning basics, forms, steps, and the other aspects of Tae Kwon Do to have to worry about the above. Also, until they understand proper mechanics, stances, and movement, manifested through basics practice, it will be difficult to properly execute these techniques.
This is why I dislike teaching strictly self defense to non-Tae kwon Do students. Unless they have the foundation learned through basic training, it would be very difficult to properly execute these techniques.

I couldn't see lower belts doing throws, sweeps or takedowns. We don't do throws, but we do sweeps and takedowns. But we aren't allowed those in sparring or tournaments. Just in careful but aggressive practice and just with red belt and up. I agree with MTKD, there are basics to learn first. Taekwondo is a different discipline with different priorities. We have a large curriculum and do alot of physicall training in the colored belt ranks. Sweeps, takedowns are considered advanced technique. BB's have learned how to fall etc. and are less likely to get hurt.

[Marginal]

Hmm... I haven't suffered massive (or any) injuries from practicing throws, joint locks, breakfalls etc from white belt onwards. (Heck, had to demonstrate breakfalls for my 6th gup test and we had no mats available.)

Can't really say it's compromised my ability to throw a kick or form a stance either.

[steel elbow]

i think you should only be taught arm locks and take downs that would work in a self defence situation.
me personally i would never dream about blocking a punch and then trying to grab the wrist and twist it, i would just block and elbow as hard as i could to the throat. just as effective if not more and less figity hand movements to do

[glad2bhere]

I don't know if this will help but I throw it out for whatever its worth.

About a year ago I ran across a news story regarding research that was done at a university (?). In the study people were measured regarding the amount of force that they were applying to a partner versus the amount of force they were receiving back from that partner. What makes this interesting was that (if I am remembering the research correctly) the idea was that the force between the two partners was suppose to be approximately equal. The result of the research showed that the person performing the pressure seemed to uniformly hand out more force (underestimated their effort) while the person receiving the force OVER-estimated what they were getting. If you have ever worked with someone on simply grappling you may see where this is going.

If partner A doles out what he thinks is X-amount of force, partner B will experience that force as a bit more than A intended. When its time to "return the favor" partner B will hand out an OVER-estimated amount of force while intending it to be the equal of what he originally got. As this see-saws back and forth the amount of force will continue to grow while the partners will swear that all they are doing is giving as good as they got. Of course the chances for injury, competition and fear are high and any ONE of these responses will shut-down learning. My guess is that most people are just not willing to deal with this when they can take some KMA classes (TKD, maybe?) where they need never make intentional physical contact and not have to deal with the matter. If I can find the article I'll pass it along. I don't know it for a fact but I will bet the same sort of thing happens when folks are doing "light" contact sparring and things get out of hand.

BTW: This is one of the reasons that I DON'T run my classes like Boot Camp. To deal with the issues I mention above I encourage my students to give constant streams of feedback about the technique and how it is effecting them. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[kwanjang]

Most Hap Ki Do based schools will teach take downs and joint locks to all comers; however, most schools do that in stages. For example, we will teach a novice a technique that "looks like" the real thing, and then as s/he gets comfortable with it we add more sophisticated levels to that same technique. Falling is taught the first day you come into the school. After 40 years of teaching (thirty in my own school), I have not had any major problems with injuries. In fact, I have more people in class that are injured in their non martial arts activities such as baseball etc.

[MichiganTKD]

I think Tigerwoman brought up a good point.
Since Tae Kwon Do is a martial art focusing on strikes, blocks, and kicks, rather than holds, throws, and locks, it stands to reason that most schools will not emphasize these aspects of the program. Instruct in them, but not emphasize them. Therefore, since the students are being taught primarily the striking-blocking-kicking techniques, and getting used to those, they will not be as familiar with the locking-holding-throwing techniques. It is not a major part of our curriculum.
Therefore, the reason I think these techniques should be taught primarily after black belt is that after 1st Dan, when a student's basics in traditional TKD technique are established, he or she can afford to be taught other techniques without having to worry about focusing on the traditional basics. I am not advocating learning a different style BTW, just that after black belt, when a student's TKD basics are established and they aren't struggling with them as much, it is more feasable to introduce these new techniques.

[Touch Of Death]

I think Tigerwoman brought up a good point.
Since Tae Kwon Do is a martial art focusing on strikes, blocks, and kicks, rather than holds, throws, and locks, it stands to reason that most schools will not emphasize these aspects of the program. Instruct in them, but not emphasize them. Therefore, since the students are being taught primarily the striking-blocking-kicking techniques, and getting used to those, they will not be as familiar with the locking-holding-throwing techniques. It is not a major part of our curriculum.
Therefore, the reason I think these techniques should be taught primarily after black belt is that after 1st Dan, when a student's basics in traditional TKD technique are established, he or she can afford to be taught other techniques without having to worry about focusing on the traditional basics. I am not advocating learning a different style BTW, just that after black belt, when a student's TKD basics are established and they aren't struggling with them as much, it is more feasable to introduce these new techniques.Shouldn't black belt represent a fundmantal skill level which would include falling and landing? What you are saying mearly suggests a working knowledge of a steril and controled environment.
Sean

[TigerWoman]

Shouldn't black belt represent a fundmantal skill level which would include falling and landing? What you are saying mearly suggests a working knowledge of a steril and controled environment.
Sean

Shouldn't hapkido or kenpoists learn jump spin heel, 360 round, 360 jump back, 360 crescent, tornado round, triple kick. flying side kick, jump round etc. etc. etc. And do all our 10 forms and the breaks too.. I'm not attacking. Each style has their own strengths and weaknesses. There has to be a time and readiness to learn other stuff. Takedowns and locks are not a priority in our discipline. You just have to respect that. Personally, I would love to learn more of that as a black belt though, I'm ready. Well maybe not for throws. :asian:

[glad2bhere]

Dear Tigerwoman:

I think its a matter of diminishing returns. By this I mean that the more material you throw-out for a person to master the more they risk becoming a jack of all trades and a master of none. I remember reading that the Shaolin Temple reputedly grew to have so much material that it had to be reorganized along 12 separate lines, each purportedly under its own animal totem. People seeking to learn Shaolin material found that they could only really "specialize" in one or two of the lines. There was simply too much material to learn. Traditionally what happens is that different teachers come along, each with their own take on what is "really" important and reshuffle things dropping some stuff and adding others. The result is what is loosely called a new "style". In reality it is merely a re-shuffle along some alternate set of teaching priorities. Look what happened with Chen Tai Chi as it transitioned to Yang then Son then Wu. In Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido we have six weapons, for instance, one for each of the 6 dan ranks. The idea is not to become a "master" of the weapon but to learn from the weapon and discern how it interfaces with other weapons and MT Hand material. Usually individuals are drawn towards one weapon or another and begin to study it in depth while only learning superficial things about the other weapons. I think the techniques of TKD and TSD could probably be dealt with in much the same way. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[TigerWoman]

It used to be in our school that the student had to reach black belt to be able to learn a weapon. My son was patient and leapt at the chance to finally learn nunchuks. Actually he got quite obsessive with it and practiced continually up and down our hallways. He competed alot with them too and I think he surpassed our master and so does he. My son taught him moves. Then, a young boy who competes internationally now with the bo, Wayne –– , can't remember his whole name happened to be always competing with my son. At one time, I remember the judges telling him that he almost won, but he had a slight slip. I always helped him with his form and he would show it to the master before the tournament. Anyway, my son eventually got disinterested after a slew of failures in tournaments, (Wayne, competing too many events against same person -got tired, and political- against a visiting BB adult) and not any help from the master.

Then the master started teaching bo and nunchuks to anybody in special classes, usually a month apart. Haven't seen anyone continue. I tried both, bo for a while but liked nunchuks better. But no time to do it, no place at home, no guidance, and I had to practice alone at the dojang and no one else was doing them then, so I faded on that. Now, he has red belt and above doing a demo weapons and team form. Very elemental nunchuks. They just practice every Saturday and have developed a simple form. I suggested that he bring nunchuks into the noon class since it is usually six black belts and four upper rank plus a couple of advanced teens-not all come. I think for adults, it has to be incorporated into the regular program but then I can see there is not much time for most. Most just go three times a week. With that its hard to do anything more in addition to cardio, forms, self defense, technique practice, strength building/maintenance, slow motion practice, breaking practice for upcoming tests, 3 tournaments- Year, BB biannual recerts. and demos. So it pretty much needs an ongoing special weekly class like the demo team's but when. I've been lobbying for a special black belt class but that's not happening either. Our master/instructor/kwanjan travels to five cities during the week. Only 2 - 2nd dans. Hasn't retained BB's. So that is my experience with weapons.
.

[MichiganTKD]

Our Instructor did work with us on correct falling techniques to be used during free fighting so that if we got knocked out, we would not fall backward and risk hitting our head on the floor.
But I also think correct falling and rolling is important to know so that if you are thrown, pushed, or slip you minimize risk of injury.

[Marginal]

Takedowns and locks are not a priority in our discipline. You just have to respect that.

Not being a priority doesn't mean it's not useful to know how to escape a headlock, or how to effect a throw should the opportunity present itself etc. Breakfalls especially come in handy in a lot of areas. (Spare someone some pain if they end up falling while trying to execute a kick at the very least.) Use the locks to set up strikes...

[glad2bhere]

Dear Tigerwoman:

".....Then the master started teaching bo and nunchuks to anybody in special classes, usually a month apart. Haven't seen anyone continue. I tried both, bo for a while but liked nunchuks better. But no time to do it, no place at home, no guidance, and I had to practice alone at the dojang and no one else was doing them then, so I faded on that. Now, he has red belt and above doing a demo weapons and team form. Very elemental nunchuks. They just practice every Saturday and have developed a simple form. I suggested that he bring nunchuks into the noon class since it is usually six black belts and four upper rank plus a couple of advanced teens-not all come. I think for adults, it has to be incorporated into the regular program but then I can see there is not much time for most....."

Not to put you on the spot, by why did the training at the TKD school not focus on more traditional Korean weapons? There is quite a bit of truely fine resources regarding many of the weapons in the MYTBTJ. Was there a reason your school (or you personally) chose not to delve into these?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[TigerWoman]

Not being a priority doesn't mean it's not useful to know how to escape a headlock, or how to effect a throw should the opportunity present itself etc. Breakfalls especially come in handy in a lot of areas. (Spare someone some pain if they end up falling while trying to execute a kick at the very least.) Use the locks to set up strikes...

Yeah, we do that--learn how to fall. But when you are a white, yellow, orange, you can hardly control your body too well... We don't learn takedowns, locks either for the same reason. They're getting enough information to learn.

[TigerWoman]

Not to put you on the spot, by why did the training at the TKD school not focus on more traditional Korean weapons? There is quite a bit of truely fine resources regarding many of the weapons in the MYTBTJ. Was there a reason your school (or you personally) chose not to delve into these areas.


I really don't think he knew how to teach any others at least, he never indicated it to me. Are you supposed to learn certain weapons or pick a weapon for testing, each Dan rank in WTF style? Anybody know? I don't know specifically what those weapons are. I would be interested in learning if you could list them, maybe a line about them. I've also seen the Kama, Short Staff, Sai, Tonfa, and some kind of a sword in tournaments but don't know anything about them. TW

[Disco]

As glad2bhere stated, there are many Korean weapons that could be taught/learned, but in TKD it is not mandatory to learn weapons. Now each school or particular style of TKD can and some do include some weapons training, but WTF guidelines don't list any requirements for weapons training.

[glad2bhere]

Dear Tigerwoman:

Disco is right on the money so I think I need to reinterate that what you are hearing from me is my own personal agenda. I don't practice TKD or TSD so what I DON'T know about these arts would probably fill a small library. The only reason I raise the issue was not to put you on the spot or cause you to question your training, as such. Rather, I picked up on the mention of what are usually identified as Okinawan or Japanese items. As a traditionalist I push strongly for people who train in Korean arts to reflect on Korean items or at least the Korean manner of using things. Now its true that some time ago there was little material on Korean weaponry or martial traditions, bvut there is a steadily growing number of resources that are available and can be the foundation for further research. Here are some examples with acknowledgment to Turtle Press.

1.) The Mu Yei ToBo Tong Ji ("Illustrated Comprehensive Manual of Martial Training") was translated by Dr. Sang Kim and published in 2000. It gives a great picture of the nature of martial training as seen at the time (1795) the book was written. The book itself is a revised work of previous works which each focused on martial training that the Korean government thought its military needed to know.

2.) In hand with the above book there are two Video tapes which put the material in motion so you can get an idea of how the formas in the book might look if done today. I personally don't agree with all of the interpretations but at least its a start.

3.) It IS possible to use things that we have today to investigate these more authentic forms. For instance, you mentioned the Okinawan nunchuka. This is not a martial art weapon but a civil art weapon that the Okinawans were said to have used. However, if you look in the MYTBTJ you will find that the Korean Flail (a polearm) called "Pyon Kon" could be examined perhaps using a nunchuka. The same goes for the swordsmanship. Though the Koreans used fvie different types of swords (two of which were polearms) you could still at least "play" with the material using a wooden sword ("muk gum") or a cheap katana to go through the motions.

Please don't confuse my personal interests and agendas as casting aspirsions on your training. My hope is only that I might wet your appetite for more authntic study.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[TigerWoman]

Dear Bruce,

No, I don't think that all about my training...and I appreciate your effort. My weapons training has gone no where. I don't know if, at this point, that I want to pick weapons up again. But that text, does sound very interesting and I would like to investigate it. I'm an avid reader anyway but hope its not too hard to read in its translation. I can do computer manuals just fine but oriental mind think is a little hard for me sometimes. The videos probably would give me a better idea Thanks,
Regards, TW

[glad2bhere]

Dear Tigerwoman:

Right on!

I think you would get more out of the tapes as well. Dr Sang Kim did a fine job translating to English, but he is not a Korean weapons person. Many of his translations would have read much differently had he imbued the translation with some hands-on experience rather than just translate the characters to words. All the same its a good start. Enjoy!!

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[glad2bhere]

BTW: I just noticed that you are from Minnesota.

I will be taking a road trip with The Boss to the annual Summer Seminar in Sault Ste Marie. I think the dates are July 2-4th. People who want to expand their material or awareness gather for what has become a truely great event. Though its sponsored by the NKMAA and is held by Master Timmermans' school in SSM, folks who not only practice other varieties of Hapkido arts but TKD, TSD and even the odd Japanese tradition are known to show up and always warmly welcomed. If you want to connect with me, it won't be hard to do. I'll be the only person there in the company of a tiny young lady of Scottish extraction. And don't let her size fool ya'!! With the blood she has in HER veins she doesn't NEED MA to keep me in line!! :)

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[kwanjang]

Though its sponsored by the NKMAA and is held by Master Timmermans' school in SSM, folks who not only practice other varieties of Hapkido arts but TKD, TSD and even the odd Japanese tradition are known to show up and always warmly welcomed.
Bruce

This is a revival of what used to be an event that had a hundred or so people stay right in my back yard in tents. With the intent of the event being training, people leave politics home and just have a blast. No one even bothers to look at the patch you wear. Respect for one another and the arts in general is what drives this thing :asian:

Please know that I have not had this event since 1998 (when I left the World Kuk Sool Association), so I am sure we won't have many people this year. I know it will take time to build it up again, but I am determined.
There is always a silver lining in the cloud, so lack of numbers simply means we have more one on one training. :)

[Littledragon]

Why have so many schools that teach Tae Kwon Do stop teaching the self defense aspect of the art. I mean joint lock and take downs and real life self defense, not that show me stuff, you see at every tournament....God Bless America . http://martialtalk.com/forum/images/smilies/Eyecrazy.gif
Yes that is very true. The majority of Tae Kwon Do school's today just teach for competition and the sport aspect, they lack the true foundations of self defense that should be present in martial arts. I see in Tae Kwon Do schools saying that they teach self defense but really just teach how to score a point in a tournament. I think the sport aspect is great for competition but the students learning only sport are just cheating themselves. They can be a world champion in the sport Tae Kwon Do and have no clue what to do if they are in a street situation, in the street you are not fighting for a point but fighting for your life..


Tarek :asian:

[terryl965]

Very well said little dragon, you are able to see what most people cannot you will be a wise man by the time your 20. keep up the great work and again great pics. GOD BLESS AMERICA

[Littledragon]

Very well said little dragon, you are able to see what most people cannot you will be a wise man by the time your 20. keep up the great work and again great pics. GOD BLESS AMERICA
Thank you for the compliments.

Tarek ;)