Tradition or Change: White or Colored Uniform

[TigerWoman]

Our dojang was pretty strict for a long time, with the traditional white uniform. Only black belts could wear black pants, and black v-neck. Then I re-designed his logo and he changed the uniforms. Blue belts could wear blue, red belts could wear red. Black belts could wear any combination as he did and that set the standard. What would be the reasons to stay with white and what would be the reasons to allow colored uniforms? If your school does, please comment on that.

[Gary Crawford]

The change in Dobaks is ok,wear what you like.The only thing that comes to mind is what is allowed in tournaments.If you don't compete,it's not an issue.I don't know which TKD system you belong to,I am only familiar with USTU rules.They require a white Dobak.

[TigerWoman]

We are WTF but in our open tournaments, I noticed the last time, every single one of the black belts wore all black doboks. I think I will go back to wearing my white/black v-neck. Tsk, hate to be the same! No, I don't suppose anything but a white uniform is allowed at state. Haven't been there the last two years. Right now, actually, I think a summer uniform would be in order. Did they get this hot in Korea? Too much material, I don't care what you say, that uniform is not cooling in 93 degree/humid temps but it does seem to sop it up some. :uhyeah:

[MikeMartial]

After browsing online MA forums since I started TKD, I'm realizing our dojang is very traditional---not a bad thing, IMO.

We only have white doboks, regardless of rank. The exception being the two head instructors, who wear black ones when they teach---if they are joining in the class (and the other head instructor is teaching) they go with white.

I'm not against having colored uniforms, but I think keeping certain tradition in martial arts is important; it's one aspect of the difference between art and sport.

[MichiganTKD]

We wear all white uniforms up to black belt, then we wear the V-neck. I don't get people who want to wear black or colored uniforms. What are they trying to prove?
In Korea, white symbolizes purity. When we wear white uniforms, it symbolizes the fact that we are not concerned with materialism and flash. I will practice in sweatpants before I'll practice in a black or colored uniform. Physically I could do it, but I would feel unclean.

[Jade Tigress]

I'm not against having colored uniforms, but I think keeping certain tradition in martial arts is important; it's one aspect of the difference between art and sport.
I agree, I think tradition is important in martial arts. Not that there isn't room for change, change can be for the better but what are the benefits of colored uniforms?

I know little about TKD but I can tell you from an outsiders point of view colored uniforms look a little cheesy. I prefer white or black (depending on tradition for the art) and a colored belt or sash. JMO

[glad2bhere]

I have never understood the variance in uniforms except as an identity statement for people who want to be different and stand-out in the crowd. I even object to the idea of putting logos on the back and characters down the pant leg. Gueppies wear white; BB wear black. No checks/stripes, herringbones, bright colors, patterns, or fancy materials. I would even limit the patches to one kwan and one organizational patch. Just 100% cotton, kept freshly laundered (and the INCLUDES the belt) and in good repair.

I have recently been considering adopting the Korean han-bok style uniform (after the fashion of the HDGD people) for use as the official uniform for weapons work. I have very strong objections to using the Japanese hakama for Korean weapons work, and though the top needs some work, I think the hanbok makes a decent weapons uniform. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[terryl965]

We only use white for the students and Us instructors wears white withthe black colar on it

[MichiganTKD]

What I find amusing is when someone wearing a non-white uniform says that they practice traditional Tae Kwon Do. If you wear a black, white/black, or any color combo you are by definition not traditional.

[childan_15]

Our dojang was pretty strict for a long time, with the traditional white uniform. Only black belts could wear black pants, and black v-neck. Then I re-designed his logo and he changed the uniforms. Blue belts could wear blue, red belts could wear red. Black belts could wear any combination as he did and that set the standard. What would be the reasons to stay with white and what would be the reasons to allow colored uniforms? If your school does, please comment on that.
I think traditional uniform

[childan_15]

I think traditional uniforms but go with what you like. Im just more of a traditionalist.

[David4516]

At our school, everyone, even instructors, wear a plain white uniform. Some patches are OK, however. You may have a US flag patch, or a Korean flag patch...

[Touch Of Death]

We wear all white uniforms up to black belt, then we wear the V-neck. I don't get people who want to wear black or colored uniforms. What are they trying to prove?
In Korea, white symbolizes purity. When we wear white uniforms, it symbolizes the fact that we are not concerned with materialism and flash. I will practice in sweatpants before I'll practice in a black or colored uniform. Physically I could do it, but I would feel unclean.You seem to embrace the martial artist image. What are you trying to prove by adhrering to a white uniform tradition? Who is gonna care if you dawn a black gi once in a while. Why is style bad?
Sean

[TigerWoman]

We wear all white uniforms up to black belt, then we wear the V-neck. I don't get people who want to wear black or colored uniforms. What are they trying to prove?
In Korea, white symbolizes purity. When we wear white uniforms, it symbolizes the fact that we are not concerned with materialism and flash. I will practice in sweatpants before I'll practice in a black or colored uniform. Physically I could do it, but I would feel unclean.

If it was MY school, I think the white dobok does represent TKD the best if we lived in a perfect world. However, talk about unclean. The concept of keeping a uniform clean does not really GET into the neurons of some people. White uniforms tend to turn gray, get sweat stains, last night's pizza and have the mat's grime all over and you get to see that week after week no matter that there WAS a talk with the newest offender about hygiene. Not exactly representing TKD, tradition, or the school very well. Even people who toss that uniform in the weekly or biweekly wash don't seem to keep it sparkling, ie. armpit stains. But red, blue and black still have to be washed too, you just don't have to bleach them to get them clean. And some people only have one uniform. Personally, I have ruined at least four white uniforms, eventually, trying to spot bleach them. And I wash usually within a day. I have used every whitener on the market including oxy stuff. So when I got to black belt, I said hurrah, and got two black uniforms. Would I be so rigid, unflexible to not consider blue and red for WORKOUTS? No, sounds like a good idea. Whole families, can bond together and grow in TKD. If red and blue uniforms help with that, why not? Especially in this imperfect world, where we as parents have to fight bullies, cliques, drugs and alcohol by keeping our kids focused on TKD. If you want a small Korean-thinking clan of rigid thinking people, fine, but I don't think IMO, it will attract many families. Today's TKD should keep its basic traditions, values and curriculum-its best - but grow - become more flexible and open-minded. But hey, if we had stayed in the traditional uniform of the Middle Ages, our military would have some fine chain mail and armor to wear in that desert. :uhyeah:

[Hollywood1340]

I heartily agree!

[kik]

White uniforms are the tradition and the instructors wear the white with black v neck, That's just the way it is But glad2behere is wrong as far as ...YOU DON'T wash your belt, and when your belt becomes freyed it just means thats because you've used it well. But hey I'm old fashioned.

KIK http://martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif

[Jion]

White uniforms are the tradition and the instructors wear the white with black v neck, That's just the way it is But glad2behere is wrong as far as ...YOU DON'T wash your belt, and when your belt becomes freyed it just means thats because you've used it well. But hey I'm old fashioned.

KIK http://martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif
Why don't you wash your belt? You sweat on it, bleed on it; it's possible that there is other people's sweat and blood on it, too. That's just slightly... unhygienic, you know?

Yes, I know the whole bit about "washing out everything you've learned." Come now - if that happens when you wash your belt, let me know. I'd like to study that belt. Tradition for the sake of tradition is meaningless. Tradition for the sake of "my teacher did it this way..." is almost as bad. Tradition for the sake of "my teacher did it this way BECAUSE..." is the way to go.

Now, I washed my first white belt and it turned brown. So, that would be a logical reason NOT to wash your belt. :-)

As far as uniforms go... I'd say, wear what you feel comfortable with. Just realize that some people will look at you differently. Okinawan practitioners just went out in there everyday wear; there are some photos of them working out their underwear. The Japanese karate-gi was modeled on Kano's Judo-gi, to help promote the art/sport and make the Japanese more comfortable with it. The Koreans adopted a pull-over top to distinguish their art from the Japanese one. Some taekwondo schools still use the Japanese style cut.

Who is right? For their purposes, they all are. Bruce doesn't like the hakama because it's a Japanese piece of clothing, and he's practicing a Korean art. That's great, for him; another guy might not be able to get a han-bok, so he sticks with the hakama. Still good. The cut and/or color isn't going to make or break an art - though it may cloud people's perceptions of it.

Am I making sense? Or am I overtalking the topic here?

[Touch Of Death]

You made perfect sense except for the washing your belt part. You don't wash your belt. That's crazy talk. :uhohh:
Sean

[David4516]

I don't know about the rest of you guys but I've never washed my belt...

[MichiganTKD]

In America, our national colors are red, white, and blue. These colors are based on certain principles that define our nation. I didn't make the rules, and I don't have the power to change them. They are traditional. if you decide you are going to wear red, white, and green because you want to be different, you are basically saying "I can change the rules if I want to". Well, no you can't.
To me, Tae Kwon Do is the same way. The traditional uniform color is white, based on what white represents in Korean thought. If you change the color, say red, blue, white/black etc., you are basically saying "I can change the rules if I want to". Well, no you can't. The rules of Tae Kwon Do etiquette and tradition predate anything you think you can change.
You can wear a different color uniform but it wouldn't be traditional Tae Kwon Do and you can't pass it as such.

[glad2bhere]

Dear MichiganTKD, Nathan et al:

Just some quick thoughts.

I know some people subscribe to that sort of superstitious belief about not washing the belt so don't take it personal if I don't go along with it. In Hapkido we tend to make much more personal contact and I can be a real fanatic about my students tending to hygiene. Its not just the belt, but the uniform that needs washing, and the toenails needing clipping, and staying off the mat if you have a rash or sore and so forth. Nothing personal if you don't want to wash the belt, just remember that in time it will become a possible source of fungus, bacteria or infection given the right circumstances. Maybe its not so much a concern for those arts that make little or no contact. Thoughts?

As far as the differences in uniforms I have been confused about this ever since the TKD/TSD people started using V-necks and calling them "traditional". This was made MORE confusing when I first broached the subject of using the han-bok for all KMA (after the fashion of the Taek Kyon people) and caught a lot of flack for it in another discussion. I can't quite get my fingers around where the overall sentiment is going in the KMA in this regard. I got a circular from OTOMIX the other day and was completely un-nerved by what they had to offer. Apparently CENTURY still makes enough $$$ off of their line of do-boks to continue to offer the "old fashioned" uniform including the drawstring. Anyone? Comments?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[MichiganTKD]

I think practicing in a han-bok would be really neat. Let you know in no uncertain terms your style is Korean. Wonder how our Grandmaster would feel about that?

[glad2bhere]

So far its been a bit of a mixed experience but its not necessarily because of the clothing style. Rather I think it has more to do with the manufacturer that I have found thus far. The current item I am experimenting with closes L-over-R with an internal tie for the R and and an external tie for the L. The ankles are gathered with velcro which is also a nice touch over the more traditional string-ties. So far so good. Now the bad news.

The internal tie binds for a number of R-hand, horizontal moves, and the external tie is too centered in the chest area. The result is that the centerline of the uniform tends to "walk" around ones' middle. It also does not help that the material is cotton-poly mix and we all know how that can cling when its soaked with perspiration. I think a decent modification would be to make the uniform out of 14 oz. 100% cotton and cut just a bit oversize per size---- call it "4-plus" for instance. Close the top with a standard tie more on a bias in front of the right shoulder. By tradition most people coming to workout in the their han-bok would have removed the top and worked-out in their undershirt, or maybe even barechested, any how. Funny how much a class would have looked like a bunch of people training in Chinese uniforms, ne?

BTW: I DO wish I knew where those Taek Kyon people get THEIR uniforms!!

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Touch Of Death]

In America, our national colors are red, white, and blue. These colors are based on certain principles that define our nation. I didn't make the rules, and I don't have the power to change them. They are traditional. if you decide you are going to wear red, white, and green because you want to be different, you are basically saying "I can change the rules if I want to". Well, no you can't.
To me, Tae Kwon Do is the same way. The traditional uniform color is white, based on what white represents in Korean thought. If you change the color, say red, blue, white/black etc., you are basically saying "I can change the rules if I want to". Well, no you can't. The rules of Tae Kwon Do etiquette and tradition predate anything you think you can change.
You can wear a different color uniform but it wouldn't be traditional Tae Kwon Do and you can't pass it as such.Gotta love them traditions that are less than 100 years old. :asian:
Sean

[MichiganTKD]

Koreans wearing white clothes and uniforms goes back a lot longer than 100 years. And red, white, and blue has been our nation's colors since the beginning.
In fact, Koreans were known as the "white-clad people".

[TigerWoman]

Quoting "Black Belt Tae Kwon Do" by Yeon Hwan Park and Jon Gerrard, Page 3.

"The first practiitioners of Tae Kwon Do did not use a series of colored belts to indicate their progress. They did not have formal uniforms like the dobok worn by today's practioners either. The clothing they wore were simple,loose-fitting garments that absorbed sweat and allowed them to move and kick freely, something like the warm-up sweats people wear today. In fact, the clothing they practiced in were actually the undergarments they wore beneath the outer clothes they would normally wear in public."

I guess we aren't tradtional after all in our v-necks. They don't say anything about white but they did say it was underwear. Hey, its the summertime and its more "traditional". Its all in the interpretation. I think a colored uniform is as traditional as when they changed it to a v-neck. I can't follow the rules if someone broke them in the first place. We should be all wearing warm-up sweats like underwear uniforms. How cool is that?
This is all pretty trivial in the big picture, IMO. Sorry, I brought the subject up but I guess it does SHOW how trivial it really is.

[terryl965]

TigarWoman thanks for the reminder, you and Black Belt Tae KwonDo are right they did not have uniforms so we all adapted in one way or another..... God Bless America... We have the right to agree or dis aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaggreee on subject s that are brought before us Have a wonderful Day!!!!!!

[deadhand31]

One thing that should be realized is that Tae Kwon Do wasn't established as its own art until the 1950's. There were several styles before that which were unified and adapted when the name Tae Kwon Do was chosen. Any real tradition in TKD doesn't stem back before that.

As for what my school does, I guess you could call it semi-traditional. From white belt to high blue belt, we all wear white collar doboks. From red and up, we get the black v-collar, and can choose to wear white or black pants. If you are on our demo team, you get the blue fold-over dobok, which you can wear blue or black with. Assistant instructors have the option of getting a red fold-over dobok, which they can wear with red or black pants. The school instructors get a black v-neck dobok, and sabunims have a diamond pattern dobok. I suppose that the purposes of the doboks also show the level of participation. Good or bad? I don't know. Personally, I don't think it matters as long as the focus is on the art, and not on the looks.

I've seen some pretty ****'ed up uniforms at a sport karate tournament once. There were sequins, flashy patterns, and sparkly weapons. I'm glad I wasn't a participant, because I sure wouldn't have wanted to pick up the soap in the showers around those guys.

On a side note: The XMA and adrenaline uniforms in the latest century catalog are GAY AS ALL HELL. I pity any school that would subject its students to wearing such horribly tasteless uniforms. Even Richard Simmons wouldn't wear one of those repulsive get ups.

Gay ass uniform 1 (http://www.centuryfitness.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10051&storeId=10051&productId=75303&langId=-1&product_parentId=13953&crumb=13501-13502&categoryId=13953&parent_category_rn=13506)

Gay ass uniforms 2 (http://www.centuryfitness.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10051&storeId=10051&productId=12051&langId=-1&product_parentId=14104&crumb=13501&categoryId=14104&parent_category_rn=10251)
Agree? Disagree?

:asian:

[terryl965]

those are pretty bad and you are right Richard Simmons would not wear one.... GOD BLESS AMERICA

[glad2bhere]

Hey, the STAR TREK producers called. Apparently they are very taken with the CENTURY line!!! "Beam me up, Scotty......." :-partyon:

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[MichiganTKD]

Ay Yi Yi! Who in their right mind?...

I'd feel like an absolute idiot wearing one of those. I think if you buy one, you should also get a coupon for a white wine spritzer and two tickets to an upcoming Liza Minelli concert!

[Touch Of Death]

One thing that should be realized is that Tae Kwon Do wasn't established as its own art until the 1950's. There were several styles before that which were unified and adapted when the name Tae Kwon Do was chosen. Any real tradition in TKD doesn't stem back before that.

As for what my school does, I guess you could call it semi-traditional. From white belt to high blue belt, we all wear white collar doboks. From red and up, we get the black v-collar, and can choose to wear white or black pants. If you are on our demo team, you get the blue fold-over dobok, which you can wear blue or black with. Assistant instructors have the option of getting a red fold-over dobok, which they can wear with red or black pants. The school instructors get a black v-neck dobok, and sabunims have a diamond pattern dobok. I suppose that the purposes of the doboks also show the level of participation. Good or bad? I don't know. Personally, I don't think it matters as long as the focus is on the art, and not on the looks.

I've seen some pretty ****'ed up uniforms at a sport karate tournament once. There were sequins, flashy patterns, and sparkly weapons. I'm glad I wasn't a participant, because I sure wouldn't have wanted to pick up the soap in the showers around those guys.

On a side note: The XMA and adrenaline uniforms in the latest century catalog are GAY AS ALL HELL. I pity any school that would subject its students to wearing such horribly tasteless uniforms. Even Richard Simmons wouldn't wear one of those repulsive get ups.

Gay ass uniform 1 (http://www.centuryfitness.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10051&storeId=10051&productId=75303&langId=-1&product_parentId=13953&crumb=13501-13502&categoryId=13953&parent_category_rn=13506)

Gay ass uniforms 2 (http://www.centuryfitness.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10051&storeId=10051&productId=12051&langId=-1&product_parentId=14104&crumb=13501&categoryId=14104&parent_category_rn=10251)
Agree? Disagree?

:asian:Come to think of it all Ma Uniforms look rather light in th loafers in a non-offensive to homosexuals way. I just fail to see why white PJs are better than blue or black PJs. Symbolizing purity doesn't win the fight, and if every one is wearing blue or black or orange(?) then nobody is really standing out as an individual.(I guess orange would be prison TKD)
Sean

[TigerWoman]

Those Century XMA uniforms are pretty bad. I supposed they are supposed to look more macho but with the material and the quilted silver patches, they tend to look like a bad Halloween costume. White long sleeve T underneath doesn't help it nor the other costume with the exposed armpits. Yuck!

While I don't think it matters whether the uniforms are red, blue or white. I don't think they should be black until black belt. I saw a WHITE belt adult wear a black uniform in a tournament. The only other black uniforms were the judges. I wondered if he felt the least bit uncomfortable then?

The blue belts earn their blue uniform, the red belts earn theirs too just like their belts. It doesn't detract from any tradition. Its not the color of the skin, its what's within. TW :asian:

[Touch Of Death]

While I don't think it matters whether the uniforms are red, blue or white. I don't think they should be black until black belt. I saw a WHITE belt adult wear a black uniform in a tournament. The only other black uniforms were the judges. I wondered if he felt the least bit uncomfortable then?

The blue belts earn their blue uniform, the red belts earn theirs too just like their belts. It doesn't detract from any tradition. Its not the color of the skin, its what's within. TW :asian:I can't see where that white belt felt uncomfortable. We issue a white uniform with the intro but students are welcome to buy what ever uniform they want. That person would only feel uncomfortable if a traditionalist told him he should. I like the white top with black bottoms look these days. :uhyeah:
Sean

[TigerWoman]

I can't see where that white belt felt uncomfortable. We issue a white uniform with the intro but students are welcome to buy what ever uniform they want. That person would only feel uncomfortable if a traditionalist told him he should. I like the white top with black bottoms look these days. :uhyeah:
Sean

Kenpo must be different then. TKD is definitely this way-no black until BB. In that tournament, I think he realized it -was uncomfortable, because as soon as his form was done, he changed his uniform into his regular clothes. I like the white top with black too. But ALL black somehow looks slimmer. Us women THINK about that. TW :uhyeah:

[MichiganTKD]

I still don't understand why students wear black uniforms at all. The idea that students can wear whatever uniform they want puzzles me as well. If an Instructor issues a certain uniform, that's one thing. However, for a student to choose a uniform different from what his Instructor wears means that his choice supercedes mine. My students wear the uniform I let them wear, and I choose the white and then the black V-neck. But that's my choice. In traditional TKD, the Instructor dictates everything the students do from uniforms to manners to technique. Even black belts wear what the Instructor says they can wear. If one of my students said "I'm going to wear this uniform instead of the one you choose because I think it looks neat", my response would be to tell them they can wear that one for their new instructor.

[Touch Of Death]

I still don't understand why students wear black uniforms at all. The idea that students can wear whatever uniform they want puzzles me as well. If an Instructor issues a certain uniform, that's one thing. However, for a student to choose a uniform different from what his Instructor wears means that his choice supercedes mine. My students wear the uniform I let them wear, and I choose the white and then the black V-neck. But that's my choice. In traditional TKD, the Instructor dictates everything the students do from uniforms to manners to technique. Even black belts wear what the Instructor says they can wear. If one of my students said "I'm going to wear this uniform instead of the one you choose because I think it looks neat", my response would be to tell them they can wear that one for their new instructor.We don't play the Master servant gig too much, but the uniform is meant for freedom of motion. That is how we reguard them. Its not like every one is mismatched either. Parents generaly wait until their child has grown out of the white uniform and get them the appropriate colors for their B-Day or something. Its no big deal nor is it somthing to try to understand. Its only an issue if you make it one.
Sean

[TigerWoman]

Mich.TKD,
Where did that come from? I am not "puzzled" as well, to what students want to wear. It is dictated by their instructor/master if they want to learn at his school. The white belt I mentioned from the tournament probably got the signal it was okay from HIS instructor. I doubt he got the bright idea as a white belt on his own. In fact, the black belt masters, one a 7th dan, wore all black also.

I said we wear black uniforms as black belts and we are allowed to wear them by OUR instructor who wears even more different uniforms. So I don't understand your point, other that your are restating your position again that your students all have to wear white or get out. That is your position and I respect that. :asian: TW

[Faye]

This is very interesting. I've been in 3 different dojos, and I honestly never seen colour belts wearing any other colour uniform other than white. And the black belts, some of them still wear white, and some where black pants with black collar, that's it. I suppose blue belt and red belt can wear their respecting colour uniform, but I really have not seen it in my dojo....

[MichiganTKD]

Other than some schools having color belts wear doboks with lapels that match the belt, I've never seen color belts wear anything but white. While I don't let my students wear black uniforms at all, black is reserved for Dan students to acknowlege their rank.
What I have noticed is this: schools that have stronger ties to Korea and the WTF, I think, tend to walk a straighter line regarding white vs. colored uniforms. Schools that have looser affiliation to either WTF or ITF and little to no ties to Korea tend to be more liberal in their choice of uniforms.
For example, our Grandmaster is quite close to Woon Kyu Uhm, Chung Do Kwan head. He has also never allowed his students to wear anything other than white uniforms and V-necks. While he is an American citizen and has been for quite awhile, he is still in tune with traditional Korean culture and values, something he imparts to his students (me included). Instructors who are not close to Korean culture and tradition tend to take a more "do what you want" attitude. Both sides have merit. Being grounded in tradition gives you a firm foundation for physical technique and manners. However, if you are TOO entrenched in tradition it is hard to grow and evolve. Otherwise we'd still be doing the Shotokan forms. We'd still be doing Tae Kyon for that matter.
Philosophically, it is important to have a core set of beliefs that you do not deviate from to help you get through life. After that you can make choices.
It is the same for me with, say, uniforms. I choose white uniforms for my students to remind them that Tae Kwon Do is not about ego, flash, and looking cool. When you have 20 students all wearing white, all are the same. Doctor, lawyer, teacher, millionaire, it doesn't matter. Noone is trying to outdo each other in the fashion department. And some student with limited means doesn't have to worry about paying $100 for the fancy red or black uniform because the guy next to him has one.
I also understand not everyone does it this way. This is our organization's way.

[glad2bhere]

Michigan TKD:

My guess is (and this is JUST a guess) is that what you are seeing is fallout from a couple of things. One of them is abuse of the "senior"/"junior" relationships regarding deference and responsibility. My experience is that though this relationship is invoked a lot in the KMA that it is, too often, one way. By this I mean that the senior wants respect and deference from his juniors but does not meet his responsibilities for taking care of the juniors. The result is that the juniors don't feel bound by the wishes of the seniors as they might be.

Another contributing factor mighht be the role of commerce. My sense is that in order to retain sufficient enrollment the seniors must play-up to the juniors by indulging their various needs for individuality, novelty and drama. I think in the long run it undercuts the stability of the art, but the immediate reward is that it keeps students around to pay the bills.

The only other thing I can think of is that there are a lot of folks trying to run schools who never developed the investment (IE. emotional engagement) with their art. Such an investment only comes with time and seasoning. For me thats what a BB says: "this is my art--- the one I am dedicated to." Without that investment even an instructor can be like a wind-sock at the airport and re-orientate every time some new fad comes down the pike.

As far as Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido, the gueppies wear white and the BB wear black-- just that simple. Knee patches and 12oz material is recommended. Now for the World Hapkido Federation, GM Myung has special uniforms that suggest the Korean han-bok. Not my particular cup of tea, but there are folks who eat it up. I pretty much let students wear anything they want as long as it is clean, in good repair and appropriate for what we are there for. (Had one young miss who was prone to wearing short-shorts and tended to reveal a bit too much personal information during warm-ups. The same goes for those who are well-endowed and have yet to discover athletic support, if you know what I mean.) No day-glo colors, provocative patches, or clever quips. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[MichiganTKD]

Very true.

I have noticed that it is very common for Instructors to allow students to wear the non-traditional uniforms to keep their interest peaked. Which begs the question: If a student has to wear a red/blue/black uniform to keep interested in Tae Kwon Do, what happens when THAT loses his interest? What happens when the novelty wears off? If a student has interest problems, uniform color won't change that. It is more of a program or Instructor problem.

[Touch Of Death]

Very true.

I have noticed that it is very common for Instructors to allow students to wear the non-traditional uniforms to keep their interest peaked. Which begs the question: If a student has to wear a red/blue/black uniform to keep interested in Tae Kwon Do, what happens when THAT loses his interest? What happens when the novelty wears off? If a student has interest problems, uniform color won't change that. It is more of a program or Instructor problem.Sir,
The fact that TKD is cool is its top selling point. Why in Gods name are you trying to supress it? Americans are not exactly lining up around the block to become second rate koreans. Just because an instructor recognizes this does not make him a bad instructor, it make him a business man. :asian:
Sean

[TigerWoman]

Very true.

I have noticed that it is very common for Instructors to allow students to wear the non-traditional uniforms to keep their interest peaked. Which begs the question: If a student has to wear a red/blue/black uniform to keep interested in Tae Kwon Do, what happens when THAT loses his interest? What happens when the novelty wears off? If a student has interest problems, uniform color won't change that. It is more of a program or Instructor problem.

Its NOTHING about having "interest peaked", or commercial gain. Its ONLY a different color uniform. It is FUN for a family to wear the same color but we wouldn't cry about it if they were forbidden. And color is good for the laundry situation and can be an symbol of hard work achieved to get to the blue rank or the red rank TOGETHER AS A FAMILY - not a bad thing in this day and age of drugs, school dropouts, and alcohol. By the way, just because white was the color of choice by the Koreans long ago, it doesn't make it a reason for NOW. I wonder if they would have chosen colored if they had a choice instead of white undergarments. None of my moral, ethical and personal standards are sacrificed because I wear a colored uniform. In fact, I have a red one on right now, left over from my family experience. We were a really colorful class today, in fact, and it did not deter one iota from the decorum or educational values present. TW

[MichiganTKD]

You still haven't given me solid reasons beyond the superficial why colored uniforms are desirable. I would think that an entire family practicing together would be unity and togetherness in itself.
As far as cool, the fact that you're able to do things very few people can I would think would be cool in itself. Think of it like this: If you have lousy technique and bad manners, a fancy uniform won't help. If you have great technique and very good manners, why do you need a fancy uniform?
No, wearing a red uniform doesn't change you. It doesn't make you a better or worse Tae Kwon Do student. Which begs the question? Why wear it then? If it doesn't make you good or bad, what purpose does it serve? I suspect the answer is because deep down those who wear it want to feel cool wearing one, much like the guy who buys a Porsche to feel good about himself.
It goes back to what I was talking about before about humility and lack of ego. If you are truly humble, which is something we strive for, what purpose does the fancy uniform serve?

[Touch Of Death]

You still haven't given me solid reasons beyond the superficial why colored uniforms are desirable. I would think that an entire family practicing together would be unity and togetherness in itself.
As far as cool, the fact that you're able to do things very few people can I would think would be cool in itself. Think of it like this: If you have lousy technique and bad manners, a fancy uniform won't help. If you have great technique and very good manners, why do you need a fancy uniform?
No, wearing a red uniform doesn't change you. It doesn't make you a better or worse Tae Kwon Do student. Which begs the question? Why wear it then? If it doesn't make you good or bad, what purpose does it serve? I suspect the answer is because deep down those who wear it want to feel cool wearing one, much like the guy who buys a Porsche to feel good about himself.
It goes back to what I was talking about before about humility and lack of ego. If you are truly humble, which is something we strive for, what purpose does the fancy uniform serve?Nobody joins for lessons in humility.
Sean

[TigerWoman]

This whole subject is "superficial". A uniform is a piece of clothing to exercise in. It really doesn't matter about the color. Most adults don't believe that clothing makes you cool. I think that is a teen thing. Oh maybe it does, you're right, because you sweat and it cools you off. Actually I'm not as cool as you would think when I am in red, because I always seem to put the pants on wrong. And I laugh at myself again with everybody else and go on with the workout. Who cares.

So, some people/students of TKD wear uniforms that are colored (one color is not "fancy") but different than yours. I already stated my reasons. And we are not alone in this. I have seen alot of colored uniforms around at tourneys. In fact I have worn all colors and it does not affect the judges one whit. Smart judges. White does not show that you have great technique anymore than red, or blue. Do you wear the same white shirt and jeans everyday? I will say I'm sorry that I got into this discussion about it. I'm not preventing you from wearing those white uniforms. I wear white too on occasion. But you can't prevent the tides of change either. :asian: TW

[glad2bhere]

I agree that the subject itself is pretty superficial. The only reason I can see for pursuing this is that maybe such things as needing to wear a flamboyant uniform might be some sort of indicator of what may be going on between a persons ears regarding their character development. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[MichiganTKD]

This whole subject is "superficial". A uniform is a piece of clothing to exercise in. It really doesn't matter about the color. Most adults don't believe that clothing makes you cool. I think that is a teen thing. Oh maybe it does, you're right, because you sweat and it cools you off. Actually I'm not as cool as you would think when I am in red, because I always seem to put the pants on wrong. And I laugh at myself again with everybody else and go on with the workout. Who cares.

So, some people/students of TKD wear uniforms that are colored (one color is not "fancy") but different than yours. I already stated my reasons. And we are not alone in this. I have seen alot of colored uniforms around at tourneys. In fact I have worn all colors and it does not affect the judges one whit. Smart judges. White does not show that you have great technique anymore than red, or blue. Do you wear the same white shirt and jeans everyday? I will say I'm sorry that I got into this discussion about it. I'm not preventing you from wearing those white uniforms. I wear white too on occasion. But you can't prevent the tides of change either. :asian: TW
Not quite true.
If you attend an open tournament, then uniform color probably wouldn't matter. However, if you attend a strictly USTU or WTF authorized tournament, they tend to have strict rules layed out regarding proper dress. Anything other than the traditional or white/black V-neck would not be accepted. I've read of at least one case where students not wearing accepted uniforms were not allowed to compete. Some had come great distances. Obviously their Instructor hadn't done a very good job of checking the rules!
The organization tournament we hold every year also includes rules regarding proper dress for competitors. Only uniforms authorized by the WTF are accepted-white traditional or V-neck.
I wouldn't include colored uniforms in the tides of change either. People have been wearing them for a number of years, but there are still many Instructors, myself included obviously, who do not authorize them.

[Faye]

[QUOTE=MichiganTKD]
What I have noticed is this: schools that have stronger ties to Korea and the WTF, I think, tend to walk a straighter line regarding white vs. colored uniforms. Schools that have looser affiliation to either WTF or ITF and little to no ties to Korea tend to be more liberal in their choice of uniforms.........
However, if you are TOO entrenched in tradition it is hard to grow and evolve. Otherwise we'd still be doing the Shotokan forms. We'd still be doing Tae Kyon for that matter.

I think I believe my school is very traditional, as mentioned before, all white uniforms, etc. And the forms that we practice, the pyangs... are very very similiar to the shotakan forms.

[TigerWoman]

I agree that the subject itself is pretty superficial. The only reason I can see for pursuing this is that maybe such things as needing to wear a flamboyant uniform might be some sort of indicator of what may be going on between a persons ears regarding their character development. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Dear Bruce,
You really think that because our master lets us wear a different colored uniform that by the way, is hardly flamboyant and is a bit extreme description for a uniform that is only different in color, one color for selected higher ranks. We do not wear power rangers, striped, pieced uniforms. You judge someone because they put on a different color uniform that is permitted by their instructor?
TW

[TigerWoman]

Not quite true.
If you attend an open tournament, then uniform color probably wouldn't matter. However, if you attend a strictly USTU or WTF authorized tournament...

You are right about that. Colored uniforms are still not allowed at USTU tournaments. We only have one, the state competition every year anyway.
And that is just to qualify for Nationals.

But we can still wear them to exercise in!!! TW

[Marginal]

Dear Bruce,
You really think that because our master lets us wear a different colored uniform that by the way, is hardly flamboyant and is a bit extreme description for a uniform that is only different in color, one color for selected higher ranks. We do not wear power rangers, striped, pieced uniforms. You judge someone because they put on a different color uniform that is permitted by their instructor?
TW

If they're unconcerned with tradition in one area, what's to stop other traditional values from sliding? Like etiquette for example...

[glad2bhere]

Dear Folks:

Whoa---- if somebody wants to perform judgements, thats on them. All I suggested was that it MIGHT be an indicator. I have no Magic Window to peek into another persons' heart. All I have to go on is what I see for myself.
In my own personal experience I see folks making a lot more out of what they wear than what they live. I see a lot more people mixing and matching material rather than dedicating themselves to a single path. The single most consistent theme I have seen for myself in the KMA is "how can I garner the greatest level of regard from people in my environment" rather than "how can I be of greatest service to the folks around me." Now I enjoy a clever discussion as much as the next person so we can talk about the color of uniforms and the use of Okinawan weapons in Korean schools as long as anyone cares to. My challenge to the typical practitioner, however, is would you still train in KMA if you were the only person on Earth and had NOONE to garner recognition or adulation from? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[MichiganTKD]

Bruce,

Yep, I still would. I practice Tae Kwon Do for personal fulfillment. And the last Tae Kwon Do practitioner on Earth would still be wearing a white uniform. One of the tests of a person's character is what he/she would do if noone else were around. If I were the last person on Earth, I'd still be practicing in a white uniform.
And Marginal is absolutely correct: if you let a tradition like uniform color slide, what's to stop other aspects of etiquette from sliding as well?
I think if you feel uniform color is unimportant, then everything else can be unimportant as well.

[terryl965]

I agree if I was the last person around I would still train, The only difference I would wear nothing, nobody's around so I would train in the uniform GOD gave me bare naked. GOD BLESS AMERICA

[MichiganTKD]

LOL!

Why not? It's how the ancient Greeks trained.

[glad2bhere]

".....And Marginal is absolutely correct: if you let a tradition like uniform color slide, what's to stop other aspects of etiquette from sliding as well?
I think if you feel uniform color is unimportant, then everything else can be unimportant as well....."

This may be an odd sort of response but I write this in support of the comment from MichiganTKD.

When such things as survival techniques come up for discussion, people who speak from experience always recount how small things helped them keep perspective and spirit up. I know it sounds silly, but when faced with strong feelings of abandonment, isolation, deprivation and such, little things such as daily practices (IE. shaving, daily meditation or prayer, washing clothes) help a person to remember that they are human, worthy of respect and empowered.

In like manner, then, following the Warriors Path is fraught with trials and tribulations. In Western culture there are a lot of misconceptions about this sort of lifestyle and value system so one gets to feeling pretty isolated and abandoned sometimes. To my way of thinking, if wearing, washing and caring after a traditional uniform is anything like knights of old caring after their armour, seems that this would be a very affirming behavior pattern for a MA to follow. It reminds a person that even if they are in circumstances where they must train by themselves, they are still part of a larger community whose roots go back quite a ways. For me, even when I train at home, I will still usually wear my do-bok pants just for this reason--- to remind myself that I am not just "working-out" in the physical sense, but I am also affirming my relationship with folks and traditions and values that have gone before. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Hollywood1340]

If they're unconcerned with tradition in one area, what's to stop other traditional values from sliding? Like etiquette for example...
We studied this in highschool, I think it was called "The Domino Effect". It's all related, you can't have ONE without THE OTHER. :rolleyes:

[Marginal]

Domino effect? Better than a slippery slope I suppose. ;)

If you think about it, there's no particular reason to do the bulk of he traditionalist things. You could just have the people come in, rotate through various training stations (one bagwork, the next sparring, the next conditioning, back to bagwork, then forms, then padwork etc) and send 'em home without one bow, asking them to wear speficic training uniforms etc. You'd transmit the skill sets just the same. Perhaps better than in a traditional format class if you set it up in a solid interval workout format, had time dedicated to weight lifting etc.

Since the traditional format only really came into existence in the 1940's or so, you can't even really call it a longstanding tradition if you can call it one at all, so why done one aspect, but not the other?

The ultimate answer to that's up to the individual, but obviously the traditional method appeals to a great many, and by following with tradition, they validate the fact that it is a tradition and so fourth.

[MichiganTKD]

I think one of the reasons why we have etiquette, aside from keeping us in tune with whatever traditions a style evolved from, is to maintain a sense of civility and respect.

In Tae Kwon Do, there were problems originally with students misusing it in gangs and causing trouble. Aside from the various traditions that the Kwan heads came from, etiquette was a way to lift Tae Kwon Do from the level of mere streetfighting to Art worthy of respect. It would be easy as mentioned to just have no etiquette, work out, hit the bag, spar, and go home. But serious students need more than that. Similar to the Hwa Rang and the Samurai. Without etiquette, ethics, and a sense of tradition, we become just fighters willing to scrap.

[Marginal]

There's also the element of marketing it abroad. If you present TKD as simply training people how to kick other people in the head, it's not going to go over as well as a "discipline that teaches self-control, integrity etc" will.

That, and if you're a jerk, people don't really want to be around you, much less train with you.

[terryl965]

There's also the element of marketing it abroad. If you present TKD as simply training people how to kick other people in the head, it's not going to go over as well as a "discipline that teaches self-control, integrity etc" will.

That, and if you're a jerk, people don't really want to be around you, much less train with you.Very well said Marginal TKD is more then kick to the head and with anything in life nobody wants to work with ajerk so why train with one.GOD BLESS AMERICA

[MichiganTKD]

One of the reasons why boxing has such a bad reputation. It does not present itself as an Art with tradition, etiquette, and philosophy. People take boxing because they want to be able to fight. And I don't want any boxers bitching at me. You know it's true.
Yes, there are gyms that try to instill a sense of respect in boxers. But the image most people have of boxers is the loopy fighter who took too many hits and Mike Tyson. 'Nuff said.

[ipscshooter]

At our school, students wear all white uniforms until red belt/black stripe, at which point they are allowed to wear black pants with white top. Once reaching black belt, students may wear all white, all black, black pants/white top, or white pants/black top. All gradings, including dan gradings, are done in all white. Tournament uniforms may be any color as the student chooses, I suppose even those weird looking XMA uniforms, although I've never seen anyone wear anything but white or black. I like the black pants/white top look, it's OK with my instructor, so that's what I wear. (Isn't this the traditional uniform for Kuk Sool Won?) I don't see how allowing these types of uniform choices affect the other traditional aspects of TKD, like respect, indomitable spirit, etc., etc., etc. Those traits are not instilled through something as superficial as training clothes.

And, if we're talking about "tradition"... V-necks? What would General Choi think? ;)

[glad2bhere]

Kuk Sool Won? Rudy would probably know better than I. I thought the old uniform was all Black and later the organization adopted the snazzie "generals' uniform".

BTW: I should know this--- but I don't. Does anyone know where the Hapkido instructor tops, either white w/ black diamonds or black w/ white diamonds came from? It was all the rage a few years back, though I have not seen them as much now as before. This isn't another "tradition" like the TKD v-neck, is it? Anyone?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[ipscshooter]

Actually, in looking around the net a bit, it seems that most KSW schools wear all black. My son took some JKD lessons from a guy whose primary art was KSW, and he wore a white over black combo.

[MichiganTKD]

The V-neck was adopted by the WTF after Gen. Choi left Korea. Onstensibly to differentiate their uniforms from the ones he used, but also to give Tae Kwon Do a separate uniform identity away from the traditional karate uniforms. Up until the V-neck, Tae Kwon Do and karate uniforms were pretty much identical. So no, the V-neck is not traditional in the classical sense of the word, but it was authorized by the WTF as a whole rather than individual instructors doing what they wanted.
My Instructor (6th Dan) wore the traditional uniform for many years. He only started wearing the V-neck recently. I guess the peer pressure was too much:)

[kwanjang]

Kuk Sool Won? Rudy would probably know better than I. I thought the old uniform was all Black and later the organization adopted the snazzie "generals' uniform".
Best Wishes,

Bruce

The Kuk Sool Dobok is all black. At black belt level, they may have gold fringe, and for special occasions they may wear the Chung Guhn Dobok which is trimmed in silver for 1-3rd dahn, silver/red stripe for 4th dahn, red for 5-6 dahn, red with gold stripe for 7th dahn, gold for 8th dahn.

There is no such thing as a "mainly Kuk Sool" school, because they don't allow mixed arts. If one practices more than one art in a school, the school is not WKSA. Many former WKSA Kuk Sool people had to call the art they taught by a different name because of trademark rights.

WKSA reportedly has recently lost the TM rights in some countries, as it was deemed a generic name. In any case, it is VERY expensive to defend against TM infringement, and perhaps that is the reason why we now see more folks use the word Kuk Sool in their school/art/org (even in the US).

[ParrotheadTPA]

Our school uses different color pants to show different levels of leadership...red is a coach, blue is an assistant instructor, black is a certified instructor, uncertified instructors wear white. Other than that things are fairly traditional. As a lower ranking belt, I did find it useful in figuring out who was who in the beginning.

[MichiganTKD]

Normally in our organization, all black belts from Instructor on down wear the black V-neck. Instructors and assistants will wear a patch indicating them as such, otherwise they dress equally. Team members wear special red/blue demo uniforms while performing, but black V-necks for all other occasions (testing, tournaments, class etc.).
Up until recently, the only uniform I ever saw our Grandmaster wear was a white V-neck.