people on drugs

[lonecoyote]

How would anyone deal with someone being aggressive towards them who they knew was under the influence of drugs, not marijuana, or being drunk especially but drugs that make people more physically dangerous: Meth, Cocaine, PCP? I knew a guy as a drinking buddy, didn't realize he was a speed freak until I saw him under the influence one time. Scary stuff, hyper awareness, paranoia, super human focus, one might have shot him and he'd still have kept coming. I've heard law enforcement horror stories about people under the influence not feeling pain, being incredibly strong, etc. Are these stories true? What could you do?

[Flatlander]

Yes. These stories are true. My Father, Brother in law, and numerous friends are LEO. Very scary stuff. Run. If you can't? Equalizer, and KNOW how to use it. Don't stop. Hopefully your adrenaline pump can match their "narcotic advantage".

[Touch Of Death]

How would anyone deal with someone being aggressive towards them who they knew was under the influence of drugs, not marijuana, or being drunk especially but drugs that make people more physically dangerous: Meth, Cocaine, PCP? I knew a guy as a drinking buddy, didn't realize he was a speed freak until I saw him under the influence one time. Scary stuff, hyper awareness, paranoia, super human focus, one might have shot him and he'd still have kept coming. I've heard law enforcement horror stories about people under the influence not feeling pain, being incredibly strong, etc. Are these stories true? What could you do?First of all avoid people that do this... However, you should alter your targets to reduce mobility. Break his leg or crush the ankle. If you have his arm in a lock, break it; if his hand touches the floor, stomp on it. None of this will stop him from comming but you greatly reduce his ability to hurt you
until you reach safty.
Sean

[Cruentus]

How would anyone deal with someone being aggressive towards them who they knew was under the influence of drugs, not marijuana, or being drunk especially but drugs that make people more physically dangerous: Meth, Cocaine, PCP? I knew a guy as a drinking buddy, didn't realize he was a speed freak until I saw him under the influence one time. Scary stuff, hyper awareness, paranoia, super human focus, one might have shot him and he'd still have kept coming. I've heard law enforcement horror stories about people under the influence not feeling pain, being incredibly strong, etc. Are these stories true? What could you do?

That is never a good situation because if it comes to blows, you can't get out of it without seriously injuring or killing your attacker. You could restrain them if you have shackles or if your technique is impeccible (in other words, using little strength), but I wouldn't count on it considering that it can take a multitude of LEO to restrain someone on drugs, and considering that they may break their own limbs to escape your restraints. You can't really rely on going blow for blow with them, as you may crush their nuts or break something, and chances are they won't be able to feel it, so it will not stop them. Your ability to knock them unconsious is also reduced if your thinking along those lines.

So all you have left is what TOD suggested; something that will disable their ability to chase/harm you while you get the F out of their. This could be a knee break or ankle break as was suggested, but you will find that on a crazed attacker, this is not as easy as it sounds. I recomend eyes, because at least if they can't see, then they can't chase you very well.

Then their is knife or gun defense...and well, you know how that'll end up.

As you can see, there is no non-messy solution to this problem other then don't put yourself in a situation to have this problem in the first place.

:asian:

[lonecoyote]

Thanks flatlander, ToD, Tuliasan. I agree completely with get the heck out of there, focus on their mobility, or eyes. But, as far as never being around these people, some people have no choice in where they live, they live in neighborhoods where these people walk around all the time, like ghosts. I moved out of a neighborhood where that was starting to happen, but a lot of people couldn't. If all restraint is out the window, because we're fighting for our lives, how about the windpipe? Lord knows I don't want to get in a discussion that would give someone a how to but if I have to kill or maim someone its probably no. 2 on my list.

[Cruentus]

Thanks flatlander, ToD, Tuliasan. I agree completely with get the heck out of there, focus on their mobility, or eyes. But, as far as never being around these people, some people have no choice in where they live, they live in neighborhoods where these people walk around all the time, like ghosts. I moved out of a neighborhood where that was starting to happen, but a lot of people couldn't. If all restraint is out the window, because we're fighting for our lives, how about the windpipe? Lord knows I don't want to get in a discussion that would give someone a how to but if I have to kill or maim someone its probably no. 2 on my list.

Windpipe works fine if it disables him. :asian:

[Rich Parsons]

First of all avoid people that do this... However, you should alter your targets to reduce mobility. Break his leg or crush the ankle. If you have his arm in a lock, break it; if his hand touches the floor, stomp on it. None of this will stop him from comming but you greatly reduce his ability to hurt you
until you reach safty.
Sean


I have to second the mobility issue. Even breaking their wrist, they still come after you, and it might flail at you, only the hand cannot form up or tighten up to cause as much damage as possible.

My response was, to call for back up. Lots of back up. Other Seucirty, and the police would be called. I knew someone was going to get hurt bad, either them or me.

A couple of times with officers, I have also had to help out with the officers approval of course. Numbers help, yet, control is the ultimate issue.

I hope no one ever has to deal with it, yet, I know there will be those who do.
:asian:

[Tgace]

A Taser would be nice. Like the others have said, the only thing you can aim for is dysfunction, pain compliance wont work.

[Bod]

What are the classic indicators that someone is on such drugs?

I've known a few speed freaks, and it seemed they stared like they were insane. Big eyes. Jerky movement. But is this enough?

If the prosecution asks me in front of a judge and jury why I belted someone in the throat, I'd like to be sure that I was not jumping to conclusions when I say 'I thought he was on drugs because of x, y and z'.

[lonecoyote]

I think that's a really good point, Bod. As far as indicators, here's what I've heard, and I'm not in the medical field or in Law enforcement, this is all just what I've gathered from talking to people and reading-Meth binges last for days, and someone on the third day is exhibiting stranger and more intense behavior than someone on the first day. If someone goes for a week they are exhibiting obvious behaviors that one wouldn't have any trouble explaining to a judge, probably. If one goes for a week, and doesn't crash, they become psychotic, paranoid, have hallucinations, and are really insane. Then they crash, sleep for about 3 days and start all over again. Sounds like a living hell to me. Again, though, I've never taken it, never would, only known a few people who've done it, and am not a doctor or police officer so this could be wrong.

[loki09789]

What are the classic indicators that someone is on such drugs?

I've known a few speed freaks, and it seemed they stared like they were insane. Big eyes. Jerky movement. But is this enough?

If the prosecution asks me in front of a judge and jury why I belted someone in the throat, I'd like to be sure that I was not jumping to conclusions when I say 'I thought he was on drugs because of x, y and z'.
I would think that the continuous and lethal bezerker attack behavior would be pretty good evidence that you were justified. If the person can be found to be on drugs or a regular drug user (and you are the cleaner boy scout of the two of you before, during and after the actual incident) then it only makes his case worse and yours easier to justify.

In the moment (meaning before, during and after the use of force), if someone poses a reasonable threat it doesn't matter if I have assessed that they are drug altered, mood altered, sleep altered.... I just have to be able to explain/defend/justify my use of force was based on a reasonable indication of danger (consult your local LEO's/County Court attorneys for what that means in your area). If you start throwing around statements like "I knew he was a danger because he was on drugs", and it turns out to be inaccurate - then there is a hole in your justification that legal beagles can tear apart (not to mention the undermining of your character/credibility with questions like "So, how do you know so much about illegal drug use?", "Are you trained in some medical capacity to diagnose drug use, or just a person who watches too much crime drama on TV?").

Simplest thing is to just report action and behavior: "When I tried to walk away, he followed me and grabbed me", "He kept staring at me saying he was going to kick my a**", "He was screaming like a monkey and tearing his clothes off just before he picked up the brick and tried to beat me on the head with it"...or what ever. LEO's know this communication technique in relation to DWI and Blood/Ox testing equiptment and such. Language is powerful stuff.

It is good that people are looking at the full spectrum of what using force in our culture can mean though. When training for self defense I try and consider what I have to do in three major 'arenas' of self defense 'battle':
1. Inside myself (emotional/physiological responses to stress)
2. The threat (person(S) posing a danger, natural disaster, ....)
3. Legal system/Institutions (justifying/defending my use of force/dealing with probate or insurance companies... all the FUN stuff:))

[FasterthanDeath]

If you think or know the person is on some type of drug, the best advice for me to offer is breaking down their body. Go for the knees, make it so they cant walk. If that doesnt work go for the arms, make it so they cant crawl. 2 Kenpoist in dallas some years back got into a fight with a man on speed and fought him for 14 mins all the way up till the police came. They had broken 47 of his bones and he was still fighting them. So Hit, dodge, and pray. The best bet is to get away, but if not, fight to the death. His or yours.

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

If you think or know the person is on some type of drug, the best advice for me to offer is breaking down their body. Go for the knees, make it so they cant walk. If that doesnt work go for the arms, make it so they cant crawl. 2 Kenpoist in dallas some years back got into a fight with a man on speed and fought him for 14 mins all the way up till the police came. They had broken 47 of his bones and he was still fighting them. So Hit, dodge, and pray. The best bet is to get away, but if not, fight to the death. His or yours.
I agree...aim for structurally debilitating targets. Amped up, a pop in the nose will not stop them from coming. Break knees, slam elbows into temples, windpipes, etc. Worry about the legal implications after you have survived the conflict.

D.

[TonyM.]

I agree with the above and will add; hit hard, hit often and never turn your back.

[Flatlander]

I wonder if hysterical yelling and screaming might not throw them off a bit. Sort of "freak them out". Any thoughts?

[Tony]

I was in my local book store over the weekend, looking at the magazine section, specifically Martial Arts and as i was browsing through this magazine one various Martial Arts, some guy who was obviously not all there, possible under the influence of alcohol or drugs began browsing there too and asked me to show him the front cover of the magazine. I wasn't really interested in starting a conversation on Martial Arts with him at all. His manner seemed very eratic, pointing to pictures in the magazine on UFC and K1. I would hate to think if this person studied a Martial Art, can you imagine how dangerous he would be? not only being on drugs but having the skill to hurt people unneccessarily.

The problem with people who are long term drug takers and even if they are not is that they alter your perception and certainly make you less vulnerable to pain. Try applying a pressure point technique to someone who is doped up and even if you break their wrist, they'll still keep coming after you.
I don't envy the Police and other security professionals who have to deal with such people.

[lonecoyote]

Hey flatlander, I hear you about freaking people on drugs out but I just can't think it's a good idea to try to out-crazy someone in drug induced psychosis. Who knows what you'll trigger. He might be hallucinating that you're anyone from his ex wife to the ghost of hitler, or that you're saying "stab me, stab me" I think the initial thing to do would be to stay calm before the action starts. Interesting story about browsing the magazines. anyone else have any stories about interactions with people strung out on possibly dangerous drugs.

[Feisty Mouse]

This is an interesting read.

A related question (hopefully not a thread gank): has anyone had someone show up at their MA school who was drugged up or otherwise seemed "disturbed", and wanted to train? How did you handle it?

[Flatlander]

Hey flatlander, I hear you about freaking people on drugs out but I just can't think it's a good idea to try to out-crazy someone in drug induced psychosis. Who knows what you'll trigger. He might be hallucinating that you're anyone from his ex wife to the ghost of hitler, or that you're saying "stab me, stab me" I think the initial thing to do would be to stay calm before the action starts.
I totally agree with you. I should have clarified, in that I meant once you were engaged, perhaps this might be useful. Like you might distract with a eye shot, then go low line kick, perhaps throwing in some freakin' out might throw them off their game.

[AdrenalineJunky]

anyone else have any stories about interactions with people strung out on possibly dangerous drugs.I have lots of stories. I worked as a bouncer at a hip-hop club for little more than three years, spending about two-and-a-half as the doorman. This was your regular "roadhouse" cliche: trashy bar, new-ownership, time to clean house. And we did.:ultracool

One incident that really reflects how drugs and alcohol can effect your perception of "pain" is a situation with two girls, five bouncers, and a bottle of pepper spray (high-grade kind, too). I'll try to summerize to keep it short: Chick fight breaks out in the bar (bottle got thrown); we get them outside and on separate ends of the parking lot; one party leaves and, as they're driving through the parking lot, the other girl jumps back out of her car, runs up to the first car, punches through the driver-side window, grabs a hand-full of hair and starts wailing away. Two of us get there and grab the girl outside the car, meanwhile the girl inside the car freaks out, steps on the gas, and takes us all into a car about three ft. in front of us. One of the bouncers cuts the ignition, and we now have a full-blown cat fight through the window of the driver-side door. Because the fight was in such close quarters, it was hard to get any leverage for lock or bars. So, one of the guys hit'em with mace. . .three times, to be exact, none of which had any effect, whatsoever. We eventually wrestled them away from each other, and spent a couple of minutes trying to convince them not to start fighting again, while we manually untangled their hands from each other's hair. Keep in mind that this story doesn't include the parts their boyfriend/friends, etc. played in this. They weren't too happy about us spraying the girls.

AJ

[Bod]

Offer them a spliff? :shrug:

[Fightfan00]

you would have to find a way to wear them down,or if all else fails i hate to say it you have to send them to the next life,because the person who is high like that has absolutly no idea what its doing.So its either him/her or you.

[Paul Genge]

If a person is on drugs and is agressive towards you you have to move calmly and slowly. The reason for this is because their mind is like a hair trigger. If you move suddenly or quickley they will attack immediatley. This will even happen if your were not making a movement that was intended to threaten them. The best thing to do is to remain calm and back off slowly.


If you have to tackle them any strikes, locks or other techniques need to ensure your safety even if they don't register with the opponent. Locks have to work mechanically on their posture, presure points have to a a physiological effect instead of just causing pain.

Paul Genge (Police Officer)
http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk

[foxmc]

I remember two different friends of mine had witnessed two separate cases of guys on PCP that one ended up being completely mutilated (not killed), before they were able to take him down. He had already maimed one officer and he was bashing his head into the wall and then he was shot about 3 times (in defense), and he was still going strong. The other required a grand total of 15 LEOs to take him down. It's truly scary stuff, and I would hope that none of us will have to face that.

[Mark Weiser]

In the Law Enforcement Community we have a thing called a Taser. We can use up 500,000 volts if needed you can get these commerically (hint; I have them in my online store lol) that should stop an elephant. We can also use shotgun with bean bag shot to take down the suspect. There are also a thing called sticky netting which is being tested in some depts.

But for the average street person. You will have to disable the person if they get aggressive. Break elbows to prevent choking and striking by suspect. Breaking knees or ankles to bring aggressor to the ground so he or she can not support body weight. There are legal weapons one can carry that will not be considered deadly force weapons

Taser, Pepper sprays, Hand Cuffs, Plastic Cuffs, Sticks, etc....

[satans.barber]

Windpipe works fine if it disables him. :asian:

That would be my thinking too, if they can't breath, they can't fight, whether they're on drugs or not? I would think as well as the throat a good kick to the sternum would be good as well to try and wind them.

Ian.

[satans.barber]

On a related note, do any drugs ('recreational' drugs, I don't mean steroids!) actually make people physically stronger? It's obvious from what people have said and what I already knew that their resistance to pain can be reduced or completely nullified, which makes them more dangerous, but is for example a smallish guy any stronger when he's high than when he isn't?

I know that when adrenaline is dumped into the system strength increases dramatically (see stories of women moving cars with trapped children inside with their bare hands etc.), do any drugs increase adrenaline in this way?

I admit I don't know that much about drugs, I've never been involved with it myself and neither have any of my friends to my knowledge, so I'm short on first hand experience.

Ian.

[marshallbd]

How would anyone deal with someone being aggressive towards them who they knew was under the influence of drugs, not marijuana, or being drunk especially but drugs that make people more physically dangerous: Meth, Cocaine, PCP? I knew a guy as a drinking buddy, didn't realize he was a speed freak until I saw him under the influence one time. Scary stuff, hyper awareness, paranoia, super human focus, one might have shot him and he'd still have kept coming. I've heard law enforcement horror stories about people under the influence not feeling pain, being incredibly strong, etc. Are these stories true? What could you do?I used to work the booking desk at a small county detention facility. One evening two officers called in that they were bringing in a hostile subject that was getting very violent and tearing up the police vehicle. When they pulled in to the Salley Port and were secured, myself and 4 other Deputies went out to assist in the control of this person. I was amazed when I saw the damage to the vehicle and then saw the actual person inflicting the damage. It was a female who weighed approximately 90lbs. It actually took 6 LEO's to control her and get her into the "Chair". The Chair is a restraint system designed for people who are a danger to themselves or others. This individual was on a cocktail of Meth and PCP and was lost to all sanity. She had superhuman strength that was scary. I weigh 200lbs even and am the smallest officer/deputy involved in that situation. Normal arrest and control tactics did not work (ie joint locks and manipulation) because she felt no pain and was inhumanly strong. She threw a 270+lb officer back almost 10 foot across the sally port before she was finally restrained after 3 hits from the tazer. Drugs are a scary thing and sometimes I dont think there is any training that will help if the right conditions are there ....just a thought. :asian:

[marshallbd]

I wonder if hysterical yelling and screaming might not throw them off a bit. Sort of "freak them out". Any thoughts?They most likely will not even hear or if they do hear, will not comprehend that it came from you, or it will further enrage them. In my experience, it makes no difference what you do as far as verbal once thier trigger is tripped until they adjust and calm on thier own....happens extremely quickly in some and takes days for others.....

[shaolinchi]

Fiesty Mouse, I had a man come into the studio who was under the influence a few months back. He came in and started asking all sorts of questions, and asking me to show him some things...unfortunately i had a pair of nunchukas on the desk in front of me and he picked them up and started swinging them. thats when i sorta got nervous, not for me, but for him. I was really expecting him to knock himself out...but he hit himself in the back and put it down afterwards. He was swearing up a storm thats when I told him he needed to leave because I had my 5 year old class coming in. That wouldn't have been good :(...but anyway, just so happens that one of the kids fathers is a bounty hunter/bail bonds man, and he escorted him out nicely. It all ended decently!

Another story, I have posted it before, but I can't remember where...3 kids tried to jump me and a friend of mine. They were under the influence of something, i'm not really sure what it was...they hardly blinked though. it was kinda freaky. they decided to pull a gun on us. thats when i got pissed because well someone pulling a gun on me is one thing, but when that person is baked off his butt, he doesn't know what he's doing...so i calmly tried to talk ourselves out of the situation. finally 2 of the kids didn't wanna do anything anymore but the kid with the gun just persisted. finally he made his threats and pointed the gun right at me...and told me to leave...i was lucky! very very lucky

[lonecoyote]

Mark Weiser brought up the taser. I was watching the TV show "Cops" which is real actual filmed arrests, and I remember there was one episode where a guy is obviously on something very dangerous, lots of movement, eyes as big as dinner plates, and they tased him, and then he pulled out the contact darts himself, while never being knocked down or anything. That was a few years ago, though, perhaps tasers are different now. I saw another time where it put down a 300 pounder, but he wasn't on any drugs. I've also heard that if people are under the influence, pepper spray isn't as effective. Is this true? Or are sprays and tasers effective against people on meth, PCP, or cocaine?

[Mark Weiser]

There are under developement items that would control these sorts of people.


Sticky Net that is fired from a shoulder held device much like the CS dispensers.
EMP device that uses sound waves that overload the bodies senses causing the system to shut down ie pass out from overload.
Tasers are getting stronger and under developement on multiple settings available for instances if 50,000 volts is not working turn the dial up to 60,000

[lonecoyote]

That's very interesting stuff, Mr. Weiser. Kind of reminds me of science fiction, some of it, especially the sound waves. I believe that you could send a whole lot of volts through a person, barring heart attack that is, as from what I've been told its the amps that kill.But what about civilian tools? In the southwest, drugs, especially meth are a growing problem. One can be minding one's own business during the regular course of a day and come face to face with a nightmare like one of these people we've been talking about. I don't mean law enforcement officers in the commission of their duties, I mean going to the lumberyard or dump or laundromat or convenience store.

[Xequat]

Maybe someone can back me on this, but I've recently heard that if someone is in that on-drugs, "Psychotic happy" state, then it sort of shuts off their ability to feel pain, except on the inner thighs. I totally agree with hitting the mobility areas like legs and eyes if necessary, but from things that my instructor has told me, I believe that the inner thighs are vulnerable to painful attacks. Weird, but true.

[ppko]

Maybe someone can back me on this, but I've recently heard that if someone is in that on-drugs, "Psychotic happy" state, then it sort of shuts off their ability to feel pain, except on the inner thighs. I totally agree with hitting the mobility areas like legs and eyes if necessary, but from things that my instructor has told me, I believe that the inner thighs are vulnerable to painful attacks. Weird, but true.Your instructor seems like a smart man, I know of some police officers in NY that have done this to people on PCP and it has worked wonders:)

[Silat Student]

After hearing the above reports (and from hanging out with a "wrong crowd" in highschool) I'd say hit 'em with a vehicle.