The other night, I caught some ISKA action on ESPN2. Sometimes, I catch some interesting stuff on the ISKA shows: kickboxing under various rules, style demos, traditional forms, etc. However, this night, I was unfortunate to catch one of my biggest martial arts pet peeves (right below David Carradine): musical forms.

I don't know about you guys n' gals, but where I come from, forms are not meant for public entertainment. Even when I was tested on forms, I didn't do them with the mindset that I was performing them for my instructor. Rather, I did them as I always did them...as personal training and development. I have never seen a musical form that had anything of any real value to the serious martial artist.

How do I hate musical forms? Let me count the ways:

1) As I said, forms shouldn't be done as entertainment for others. They are meant to train students in the techniques and principles of their chosen style.

2) They have no real application. Come on, now...a backflip into the splits while looking down at the ground is supposed to help in a fight? Puh-lease. And standing on one leg doing those incredibly weak repetitive roundhouse kicks at head height? Give me a break. So you can hold your leg real high. Big deal. I can break your knee. :p

3) The kiais. Jeez. They weren't even real kiais. Just an extremely inordinate amount of grunting and yelling for no real purpose. It sounded (and looked) like the performers were all incredibly constipated. There was no focus or intent in any of their so-called 'kiais'. Sure, they grimaced a lot, but if someone did a kiai like that to me in training or sparring, I'd probably laugh my ass off.

4) I'm sorry, but those flimsy little toys they use as 'weapons' in their forms are pathetic. If you can't do those fancy-shmancy moves with the real thing, then don't do them at all. Sure, you can spin that balsa wood bo around nice and fast. Too bad it'll shatter if you hit anything with it. Too bad you can't do that with a REAL bo. Ugh. Then there was the misguided fool doing a form with a toy (no other word for it) katana doing flips and spins and twirls. Anyone remotely familiar with Japanese swordsmanship would know that a katana is not used like that. Sickening, really.

I'm sorry, but I fail to find anything of any value in these musical forms. To me, they are a perversion of everything I do in the martial arts. I shudder at the thought of somebody mistaking me for one of these people when I mention that I do martial arts. Grrrrr.

Cthulhu
(coming off a Nyquil high and incredibly grumpy)

LOL

Could be worse.....your teacher could start every class with "Its Morphing Time!" :D

I'm sick. I feel like crap. On my only day off in a like 2 weeks and I'm sick. Plus it's my freakin' birthday. So, please take this with a grain of salt.

Subject : Musical forms.

I would rather a horse kick me repeatedly in the balls than even think about it.

Now if you'll excuse me, I too am going on a Nyquill high.

I just got over a wicked-bad cold myself. I feel your pain.

To clarify, I'm not against music or music and martial arts. I'm a bassist/guitarist with two years of music theory under my belt.

Music is good to train with, to help loosen people up and get into a rhythm (or help train to fight without a rhythm). I'm just griping about their use with these ridiculous forms.

I'm much more impressed by a good demonstration of, say, Heian Godan, than I am with some goofy-ass glow-in-the-dark nunchaku form set to the soundtrack of the Mortal Kombat movie.

Phffft.

Cthulhu

Happy Birthday, Gou!

Cthulhu

I'm postponing this one until I feel a bit better, LOL!

Thanx though.

I myself played in several bands in high school and in university and love music as well. However Musical forms seem to leave me wanting to dry heave like a man who has eaten sand for a day.

The forms often have no realistic endevour, are merely acrobatics and the music does nothing to help it.

The silence. The silence is golden.:mad:

The only things we should hear when someone is doing a form is the exhale of exertion, snap of the gi, and a good and proper kiai. Not any one these idiotic grunting yells that serve no purpose. A good kiai should be able to stop an untrained person in their tracks...not make them laugh.

Cthulhu

Now, is it the Kiai, or the garlic breath that stops em? <G>

Sorry, couldn't resist...I'm in one of those weird moods today. :)

I've heard kiais that could wake the dead. That being said, I've smelt breath that could do the same. :)

The kiai of the musical form competitors were just sad. Really, it was no more than drawn out yelling that was sickening to watch and hear.

Cthulhu

At least they're not ******** themselves!:eek:

Eep! How'd that one get past the profanity censor? Heh...I'll have to check that.

I was at a Jujitsu/Judo (or something similar) tourny a while back.... there was 1 guy....he had a brown streak....I asked someone else...he verified....

all I can say, is I'm really really glad I wasn't in that event. ICK!

Dude, I have seen a test where a woman was at that time of the month and things were not going well for her. The test was going well, "other things" were not...

...ew...:eek:

The problems with white gi's. :D

Watch out for flying objects....ick. ;)

Ack. Too...much...information...

Cthulhu

I'm just waiting for someone to start a thread based on gross adventures while pursuing the martial arts.:rolleyes:

I can actually appreciate some of the musical forms...Oops, the only one ???? Kinda wushuized athletic ability that I can appreciate for what it is. I know the difference and can get by it... Hey I saw a woman WCW wrestler with that same stain. NASTY

Miller :eek:

Maybe it's just me but tournaments are way far and beyond what they used to be. Do they even serve the same purpose anymore?:confused:

It's true, they aren't what they used to be but there are some that will actually test your skills. Try some open weapons tournaments, or some schools will look for ways to train their NHB fighters with Traditional martial artists. You have to be careful that they aren't setting you up for anything. Even finding a boxer willing to spar a Kickboxer or grappler. Some of these aren't tournaments but well worth the training experience. I enjoy fighting other styles in their backyard. I learn and gain alot.

Miller

So you would advocate going and trying out other schools and styles?

I like to pop all over and check things out but often people do not like to do this. What advice would you give to your own students should they want to try this?:confused:

It used to be common practice to visit other martial arts schools to 'practice' with the instructor and/or top student, or offer an outright challenge. In today's litigious society, it's unwise at best.

I'm lucky that my school has a martial arts club where student's from different styles can spar, as well as share information. If you're lucky to be in a city with a decent martial arts store, maybe you can ask the owner of the store to set up a bulletin board where people can search for training/sparring partners.

For legal reasons, I wouldn't have my students visit other schools for the purpose of sparring. If they wanted to go to crosstrain or to get a taste of that style, then I'd be all for it, as long as they've been training with me long enough so that their development in my system isn't impaired from learning another system. I'm all for crosstraining, but I believe you have to first have a firm base in at least one style. After that, train in whatever you want. That's just my opinion, though. After all, we can't all be Bruce Lee :)

Cthulhu

Actually I do reccomend sparring with other systems and have done this as much as possible. The way around it is to discuss it with the schools Instructor and request this time with any student who may be interested. You can go to whatever level they wish to go to. I let them dictate that. Also I have been able to do this in exchange for teaching a certain area of what I do. Knife, Stick or trapping etc. Many schools are not willing to do this and you move on. I encourage my students who are ready to do this to seek it out whenever they can. I find it's easier to do it with Boxers, Thai boxers NHB people and Jujitu students as they appreciate and are use to contact and tend to profit from it as well. The bullitin board is a great idea and so is a small add. If it is your school an open sparring night can work out well. I have a friend who runs such a night in D.C. and he has had everyone from Sambo, to TKD show up. I think you have to train in a functional way outside your style and motion that you are use to seeing. My students already cross train as is the case in JKD but I am not talking about training in this way as much as I am talking about experiential sparring.

Miller

From what I've heard, Gordon Doversola (Okinawa-te founder) used to have Friday nights at his school dedicated to open sparring, all comers welcome. I dont' think it's been done for quite some time.

I don't advocate going to other schools to spar based off my instructor's experience doing it in Tampa. Most of the schools were outright refused him. Some would hear him out, eventually only agreeing to let him watch a class or watch the top student go through a form or something. No sparring, though. One tried to get him to sign a contract to join. I think he only got to spar one instructor at a Goju school. When the instructor found out the match wasn't 'going his way', he ended the sparring session fairly quickly under some lame excuse.

I may have better luck where I am now, but my instructor's experience has left a bad taste in my mouth. Maybe one day I'll do it on my own and see if I get a better response. However, since I'm fortunate enough to belong to a university martial arts club, it isn't necessary :)

Cthulhu

Hats off to your Instructor...So much to learn.....So many egos...
Keep trying. It is hard to find willing and open Instructors..:confused: :mad:
I have had my #$% handed to me enough in the past to have ego come into it anymore. REALITY: anytyhing can happen at anytime
Miller

Some people have too much too lose...as my friend once told me, everyone needs to eat some humble pie once in a while.:D

I'm fortunate enough to be training with people of various skill levels so that whenever my head does start to swell a bit, there's always somebody who can pop it.

Cthulhu

There is much to be said for not being hampered by ego. When that and other fears are gone there is little to loose and nobody to impress. This alone changes our performances...

This sort of parallels what I told some beginning students a while ago.

They were all worried about their performance during sparring. Particularly, how I could seemingly tag them at will yet they couldn't land a solid blow on me.

I told them that I simply go into a sparring match not caring about the match. I just attack, not caring whether I look good or bad, or whether or not I get tagged or not. I just try to trust that my training will kick in to protect me. Simply put, I spar like I just don't care.

Of course, it's kind of hard to do this if you don't have any defensive abilities under your belt. They probably shouldn't try it until they've had more training so that their defensive responses are automatic.

Babbling again. Sheesh.

Cthulhu

Careful. I have a friend who is very fast and tags me a lot when we spar. However from boxing I sorta ignore these and then he gets a little confident and when he does I clock his @ss. reminding him that tags don't always cut the mustard.

Sparring is fun.:D

I love it. Taking a blow and not showing it can be really devestating to an opponent or sparring partner. I enjoy getting hit to some extent. Though I have been hit by my first JKD Instructor so hard I had whiplash....No @#$%!...Didn't enjoy that one too much, or the two raccoon eyes that came with it. It can be fun to let yourself be hit when sparring...not fighting for real...and then just take it and let them come in feeling so good then bam.
:eek:

So much fun :D

When sparring it always used to take one or two shots to my melon before I realized that I needed to get going. That's when you get that big grin on your face and start "Stalking Proceedures.":eek:

Can relate. However, not a good habit. depending on the size of the blow.....Best defense....not being there

Just because I use the mentality of not caring whether or not I get hit while sparring doesn't mean I want to or like to get hit :)

Cthulhu

I usually prefer to spar with higher ranked individuals. 50% I prefer to learn from the more experience, and 50% its real embarassing to have your head handed to ya by a white belt....again. :D

I've noticed that somtimes, when they are "taking me to school" if I start laughing every time they land a blow, it tends to disrupt their flow a bit. Or, alternate the laughter with the stone-cold look.... Course, if it was anywhere near full impact I'd only last 2-3 min with this tactic, but when sparrin for fun, seems to work.

Just gotta stop blocking with head.... :D

The only problem I have with sparring white belts is they keep throwing feints expecting me to fall for them. Then they get upset that I don't fall for them. At least I call them feints...I'd hate to think all those strikes a foot away from me were supposed to hit. I give them the benefit of the doubt.

I remember sparring one girl who kept throwing feints (or missing...again, benefit of the doubt) who was getting frustrated that I wasn't attacking. Well, far as I was concerned, she wasn't attacking me, so what the hell? :) Anyhow, I ended up closing the gap with feints and combos (PIA, anyone? :) ) and she kind've lost her nerve after that. She had good spirit, but lost it when a concentrated attack came at her. Too bad she's not training anymore.

One thing I usually try to do after I spar a lower ranked student is to tell that student how I got to them and how to better their defense against me. Basically, I try to help that student learn how to beat me. This way, hopefully his sparring gets better and I also get a better workout the next time.

Cthulhu

Thats exactly why I prefer sparring higher ranked folks.

They tell me where to improve, where as with lower ranks, they either aren't a challenge, or have'nt learned control yet and ya get hurt. Or spend 10 min playing tag. ><

Sparring with lower ranked students with no control used to aggravate the holy spit outta me. Now, I take one of several approaches.

1) Show them what control is. When the opportunity presents itself, I launch the fastest, most powerful punch I can at their face, stopping just short of knocking their block off. Even if they don't understand that they need to control themselves better, they usually back off in fear. A nice kiai at the same time can add to the effect.

2) If the above doesn't work, pop 'em one. Usually not to the face. A good sharp hook punch to the stomach or a roundhouse to the body will work. Don't try to kill them, but put enough behind the blow to make them think about it.

3) Go completely defensive. Just work on your parrying/blocking/slipping/trapping. Locking them up can be fun. Well, fun for you, demoralizing for them.

4) We actually had a student kicked out of the college class for sparring with no control. He'd just start hitting harder and harder. After two warnings, the teacher told him to leave. He came back about a week later, when we were sparring with 'judges'. As usual, he had no control. To make things worse, he'd whine like a 4-yr. old whenever he thought a judge missed a point. Unfortunately, I never got to spar him. I could've had fun. Vindictive, I know...I ain't perfect :) He never came back after that, anyway. Eventually, everybody runs into someone like him.
Oh, the point is, if you have to, kick 'em out. If they can't gain control, they can't spar.

Heh...wasn't this topic originally about musical forms? :D

Cthulhu

I whistle while I spar?
Class I'm in usually has some music playing...need to bring in some good German Metal...Running Wild, Ramstein, etc. :)

I'll save the Enya for my Tai Chi class. :D

Note: The upper part of the forehead is good for breaking those punshes you just don't feel like blocking.
:eek:

just checking what you guys are calling feints...Too often I see people throw stuff from two maybe three miles away just to do it. I typically have a process in my sparring intercept or destroy apply pressure (PIA or ABC) and terminate. The terminate for us is No contact as it is elbows knees and headbutts but if we then go to the ground then locking or general ground and pound is great...

Oh yeah...Mega Death "Crush em" or sim music for this type of training. we train with music all the time....Drum music when training Kali or Escrima;)

Well, technically a feint is only a feint if it makes the other person respond. Whether or not that happens depends on who you're sparring. :) I've seen people flinch from hand attacks made beyond kicking range. Just depends.

Cthulhu

yeah...consistent but I add the element of if the opening doesn't close you take the hit where as with a fake you do not. It is simply designed to open another line of attack. I hate it when people spar with no sense of spatial awareness or snese of distance. Just sit back and let them throw away. Kinda like ground fighting and letting them wrestle themselves out

When sparring lower-ranked individuals, I tend to forgive any errors in judgement they make regarding combat distancing, since it is something that has to be learned. However, if I'm fighting a black belt and he/she doesn't know their own kicking/punching range, shame on them!

A book I've been reading made a good point: for those of us with especially fast hands, we have to watch our feints to make sure they aren't too fast. In order for a feint to work, your opponent has to see it coming. If you move to fast, your opponent may miss the feint completely. So, for a three-technique combo, the timing might be: o-n-e-two-three. Then again, you can't slow it down so much that the technique is no longer threatening.

Practice!

:asian:

Cthulhu

Ture, speed has to be used as anyother tool. You certainly can out speed your feints. This is however a win win situation. The real skill in my opinion is where you can feint at high speed and counter attack another line and then return to the feint target. Nice combinations:p

The book I'm talking about (The Fighter's Fact Book by Loren Christensen) suggests that going high/low with at least four strikes (i.e.: high/low/high/low), or low/high similarly, basically causes most people's brains to 'lock up'. For example, we'll use low/high. Do a lowline kick or feint (sidekick, le coup de pied bas, front snap, etc.). Ideally, you'd want it to be a strike so as to cause enough pain for your opponent's mind to 'move' down to the shin/ankle/knee. Strike high, bringing their mind back up. Low again. High again. The theory is that if the succession of attacks is rapid enough, the brain starts to have trouble keeping up with the sensory info and your opponent doesn't know what to block/avoid. By the fourth (or fifth) technique, you should be able to land a telling blow.

I know many of the people I spar would get hit after the lowline kick, as many don't expect them. I suspect this is due to the 'headhunter' mentality many of us have.

Lowline kicks are kewl :cool:

:cheers:

Cthulhu

LLK are def cool. the oblique kick is also a great tool. Bruce having taken his methods of High Low High from Southern Praying Mantis is a funny story. Evidently Bruce was dragged by Dan to see this SPM Instructor. He watched, rolling his eyes all the while as this guy went through a 50 min form. Bruce later told Dan that he couldn't believe he dragged him away from Linda and the kids to watch a 50 min kata. Dan was apologitic as he told him he thought this guy had something Bruce could use. Bruce then had Dan stop the car and he ran to this park. when Dan got there, Bruce was redoing the entire form that guy did and he did it better according to Dan. He did the entire set and said lets go. later on the way home he said...yeah, we're going to take the High Low High part and incorporate that. Interesting as told from Dan to Paul to me

Lee was simply a martial arts genius. I've read one account where Inosanto introduced escrima sticks to Lee, though Lee wasn't apparently very impressed at the time. A couple of weeks later, Lee showed Inosanto what he had come up with while experimenting with the sticks. As he went through the motions, Inosanto recognized some of them and said, "Hey, that's Largo Mano!", to which Lee replied, "I don't know what you call it, it's just what I'd do." Essentially, in two weeks and on his own, Lee had come up with a previously existing system of escrima.

Is Lee's oblique kick a variation of Savate's le coup de pied bas?

Cthulhu

Yep it is and he also uses it as a stop hit from fencing and a stomp as well. He shortened it as well in some instances to a lead leg foot stop to a jab, cross and various kicks. as a kick it is a leading kick as well as a destruction. Next favorite of mine is his inverted hook kick

I was doing oblique kicks at a TKD guy during sparring a while back. He wasn't terribly experienced, but he was naturally flexible and was a kicking maniac. Well, the oblique kicks freaked him out. He thought I was trying to sweep him, when I was merely using them as leg checks. He got nervous and was afraid to kick, so I used that opportunity to punch the bejeezus out of him.

"...anything that scores."

:D

Cthulhu

yee ha !a case of poor line familurization coupled with limited exposure to other systems I'd say.

It doesn't help that TKD competition sparring doesn't allow punches to the head and lowline kicks. Since many of the TKD people I've sparred with used tournament/competition rules, they freak out when any practical technique comes at them.

Now, I'm not saying this about all TKD people...just most of the people I've been sparring with. The guy running the school's TKD class actually trains realistically, and his sparring is pretty much 'anything goes', provided you can demonstrate control so as to not damage your sparring partner.

Reminds me. Was sparring another TKD guy (being trained by someone else...not the guy from school). Clocked him with a straight lead hand strike. Four times. In a row. It was like I was punching a heavy bag or some other inanimate target. First two times, it was kind've fun. After that, it felt weird. I don't think my punches are that fast.

Cthulhu

Ok I know this may start some @#$% but when people judge control because of threat of harming a training partner or sparring partner I think a few things. One is it's harder to injure them than they think....assuming of course you are not utilizing HKE and eye jabs. knees aren't as vulnerable, head shots are not as devestating etc. Thos having difficulty with this can train NHB or even watch PRIDE or the watered down UFC to see that the body can take much abuse before it really is injured. This with limited protection. I have not seen an NHB match come close to a real street fight and I have not seen typical sparring ome close to an NHB fight like I have not seen forms come close to sparring

Most of the people I'm currently sparring with have little experience, so they don't know what it takes to really hurt somebody. After they take a few shots, I'm sure they'll begin to develop a better sense of contact.

When I sparred with my instructor, it was pretty much full contact expect for a few things. Elbows and knees were only light contact, with the understanding that had they landed, they would've hurt ;)

If we got down to grappling and wanted to break a hold with a bite, groin rip, or eye gouge, we would imply the motion and the grip would be released. For example, if I could break a headlock with a bite, I'd place my teeth on my instructor's gi and that 'bite' would be understood, with the hold being released. Fingertips would be placed above or below the eyes for gouges. A light tap on the cup would indicate a groin strike. By the way, we did allow lowline kicks when sparring. And if you weren't wearing a cup that day, tough cookies!

Sigh. I miss sparring like that. I have to hold myself back to much sparring the people I'm with now. Double sigh.

Cthulhu

Now I'm hearing biting and more and more it sounds like FMA and JKD biting being Kino mutai (biting, eyegouging and pinching art) I really would enjoy training with you:samurai: :armed: :cheers:

Same here. There are quite a few people on these forums that I'd love to train with.

As far as my sparring practice goes, that was completely from my instructor. From what he tells me now, the black belts at the school he's at now rarely even make contact with each other. Though he trained me classically (wide horse stances for long periods of time, punches from same, kata, etc), he always made sure to spar realistically. Unlike many traditional systems, he applauded me when I kicked his supporting leg out from under him while trying to kick me. We kicked to the shins, we ran each other into the walls...hell, he'd even yank on my ponytail. Sure, one of us (usually me) would get hurt every once in awhile, but we both had enough control so that the injuries were always very minor.

Fun, too :D

I want my Star Trek transporter!

Cthulhu

:boing2:

I wanna play too. :D

damn.... I second ya...def. need a transporter.

:asian:

I have been told that with Ed Parker, <i>"even the minor strikes he gave could kill ya."</i>

He was constantly saying, <i>"If you can hit. you ca miss."</i> meaning that you should have total control when working with partners.

So here you have this guy who could by all accounts crush heads like coconuts with a hammer and made sure you felt what he was doing but had so much control that you stayed alive after he worked with you and he demanded you learn the same control.

I like to work with people to and go hard but I for one also have to learn more control and I am aware of it.
:D

Not knocking control...Never. Just reality basing it a bit...We have all been there with the "this is a kill" mentality

As Yoda said, "Control! Control! You must learn control!"

Ahem.

I find another reason to learn control is for doing drills with a partner. I've noticed that many people train to miss while doing strikes with a partner during drills. For example, if they are to do a head strike, they purposely aim to the side of the head, 'in case the partner messes up'. I prefer to train by aiming at the target and either lightly tapping it or stopping short. I think it's better to train to hit while controlling power than to train to miss.

Just my two yen,

Cthulhu

When I first started with my Teacher, "Jaybacca," I remember throwing a punch to the side of his head and he just stood there and then he smacked me. From then on, I made sure that even while working out or doing a demo it always went on target.
:cuss:

Most of my impact training goes to focus mitts or that pads. from there it's hand trapping which requires control on both ends and execellent guard and reactions. Sparring becomes light to moderate contact and for those who wish full contact. Control is important. I do stress however just what a strike will do and I don't try to exaggerate it. Some people are just left with this "one strike stop" idea and for the most part it's a fantacy. Vu further stressed this point in a seminar here in August when he asked someone throw any kick to his knee and he took it about 6 or 7 times with no effect. The other side of the rainbow is the proper tool for the job and the opponent. Remembering that combat is fluid.

You've got to stop people from doing that 'one strike then stop' thing real early. Easiest way to is to spar them and give them an easy hit. When they stop, unload on them. They'll get the message soon enough :D

Cthulhu

its not the idea that they use one strike and stop, but more that many times a specific strike is tt as an absolute and that it WILL do such and such. That mentality that one strike will stop an oponent is a set up for a bad day. Kinda like fighting multiple opponents being taught as realistic and then striking from one to the other. The people teaching this have never been in that situation. It doesn't go like that as a rule. OR :soapbox: :soapbox: :soapbox: empty hand defense against a knife. .......odds anorexic at best Usually this is further "justified " by a statement like..."oh, you will get cut but you give that up to get to this" ever seen a knife cut from a fight...?????you get laid open like a book. :soapbox: ok. I'll stop...I could go on but hey...it's late

Even Musical Forms have a place in the martial arts. Mainly they attract people becaus eof the flash and then people get introduced to the rest of the stuff in the arts like traditional kata.

Originally posted by Rob_Broad

Even Musical Forms have a place in the martial arts. Mainly they attract people becaus eof the flash and then people get introduced to the rest of the stuff in the arts like traditional kata.

I'm not particularly a fan of musical forms, but some can be very impressive to me, in the sports sense at least. I train sometimes with music, mostly very heavy music, but I like doing forms while blaring music, so I guess thats kinda liek a musical form, right?

7sm