who is the 22 grand master?

[guito]

i will love to hear what kenpo guys and experts think who is the 22 grandmaster of kosho-ryu.

[Goldendragon7]

i will love to hear what kenpo guys and experts think who is the 22 grandmaster of kosho-ryu.

There isn't one

[guito]

how about bruce juchnik,thomas mitose and the other guy,nasim hamar?. they are all great martial artist ,but i will like to hear who is who and why they claim to be james mitose sucesors. those james mitose never mention to any one what will happend to his system?.

[Karazenpo]

how about bruce juchnik,thomas mitose and the other guy,nasim hamar?. they are all great martial artist ,but i will like to hear who is who and why they claim to be james mitose sucesors. those james mitose never mention to any one what will happend to his system?.

There is much controversy as whether there was a lineage of Kosho ryu originating in Japan. Shihan Mike Brown, historian of the Sei Kosho Shorei Kai has made several trips to Japan and states he has the documentation of Mitose's lineage but it is not under Yosihida as reported on the Tracy website but actually under Kosho. He is currently putting together all his research into a book to be published, hopefully, in the near future. Currently an investigation going on conducted by the A&E biography channel entitled: "Hawaii", Gateway to the Martial Arts" has found a classmate who studied with Mitose in Hawaii who states he never left the islands. According to this source who is reputed to have documentation to back this up, Mitose studied Okinawan kempo karate of the Motobu lineage, namely Naburu Tanamaha, a 1st or 2nd generation Motobu. My own research has also disclosed that the Chinese emmissary/general Kusanku, one of the early pioneers who brought Chinese kung fu to Okinawa also went by the name of 'Kosho'. Coincidence? The jury is still out. Shihan Brown is very intense in his work and has a solid reputation in Rhode Island which is a stone's throw from where I live. He swears he has this information and it will clear this controversy once and for all. Unless he is mistaken, I will take him at his word. On the other hand, let's see what the final conclusion is from the A&E investigation. Both sources may be credulous as to Mitose could very well have had some training in his family art in Japan that was more along the lines if Jui Jitsu and later supplemented that with Okinawan kempo karate making a bit of an eclectic blend. Hey, I don't know, I'm just throwing out possibilites. That's why some believe there is no 22nd descendant because if the current A&E source holds true in his intial claims then there was no 21st descendant either. Putting that aside and answering your question as to who would be Mitose's successor, that too, is the target of much controversy. Hanshi Bruce Juchnik made several visits to Folsom prison to visit Mitose. Prior to that his foundation was in Tracy's Kenpo. He states Mitose presented him with a Master's certificate and told him, I'm paraphrasing, to do what he feels is good to carry on the system. Gm. Thomas Barros Mitose (Mitose's son) who's background is in Kajukenbo from Gm. Joe Halbuna states his father made him the 'keeper of the Kosho flame' and that because he was his father's blood he did not need a certificate to say so. Sijo Adriano D. Emperado, founder of Kajukenbo and who traind under both Professor Chow and James Mitose endorses Thomas as his father's successor. Hassan, is another thing. I believe he only studied a few months with Mitose shortly before Mitose was arrested. Hassan is not his real name and he was also charged in the case as he was the one who actually carried out the crime that Mitose was found guilty of organizing. I don't believe he has any valid claim other than the fact he was Mitose's last student before he was tried, convicted and sentenced but what's that mean? The only thing right now I can say with certaintity is it was James Mitose and his Kenpo that was the catalyst that triggered all the Hawaiian-derived Kenpo systems that we have today. So, whether he was a 21st descendant, whether the system was Japanese in origin or simply Mitose's Japanese 'spin' on Okinawan kempo karate, his system was and is a legitimate martial arts system currently practiced worldwide. Hey, maybe he was the founder and the 1st descendant but look how many other arts practiced today that were founded during that era. My only beef is don't B.S. us, just give us the truth! I hope this sheds some light on your questions.

[guito]

karazenpo thank you for the information.

[Gentle Fist]

Karazenpo is the man indeed!!!

[Zoran]

There isn't one
And since there is so much debate on if there was a 21st GGM, there can't be a 22nd anyway and the whole debate over who is the 22nd becomes irrelevant.

I sometimes wonder why people debate over such silly designations. In the long run, what really matters is how effective you are as a teacher, martial artist, and the effectivness of what is being taught. Don't get me wrong, I do enjoy historical details, just wonder why anyone needs to have a "super duper special master" title to validate themselves and their system.

Anyways, I'll get off the soap box now. :soapbox:

[Goldendragon7]

There isn't one

Right, like I said.....

[Karazenpo]

And since there is so much debate on if there was a 21st GGM, there can't be a 22nd anyway and the whole debate over who is the 22nd becomes irrelevant.

I sometimes wonder why people debate over such silly designations. In the long run, what really matters is how effective you are as a teacher, martial artist, and the effectivness of what is being taught. Don't get me wrong, I do enjoy historical details, just wonder why anyone needs to have a "super duper special master" title to validate themselves and their system.

Anyways, I'll get off the soap box now. :soapbox:

You're welcome, guito and thank you fistlaw. Zoran, I totally agree with you. The reason I personally delve into the history is actually two-fold. #1) I'm just curious myself what is fact and what is fiction but more important is #2) I like to have the correct answers when my students ask me. I've been involved since 1973 and we were filled with much disinformation, not by my instructor Craig Seavey but by some of his seniors in the art. Craig and I were both victims of this. I believe we owe it to our students. For me personally, I am only seeking the truth and I don't care what that truth really is as long as its the truth. It's our 'family' history. George Pesare told us we have to know where we came from to know where we're going to. Gm. Pesare also told us to be careful of perpetuating a myth. Should we not verify our information and repeat it, the falsehood takes on a reality of its own. Students are inquisitive and are constantly asking us questions. They have faith and trust in their instructors to come up with the right answers. Some of the myths I've heard repeated as fact by some martial artists have become very embarrassing for them when the truth is finally uncovered. So, in closing, I do feel as an instructor it is our responsibility to provide our students with a factual background on the art they are investing their blood, sweat and tears in. At least as factual as we can get it for history in general can be pretty subjective and opinionated.

[John Bishop]

Mitose the man, is the key to the history of his so-called system. If you examine Mitose, you will find a man with a criminal record that goes back to the 40's.
You will find a man who only taught Kenpo to a handfull of students for less than 10 years. A man who posed as a minister since the 40's, but never attended a day of seminary. A man who claimed a doctorate in divinity, but never attended any colleges or universities. According to his testimony at his murder trial, he claimed to have made his living during WWII by running a brothel. This was at the same time he was posing as a minister around his students. Once in California he made his living as a fraud and con man. His crimes eventually escalating to murder.
His claim to have learned a Shaolin based system at his family's temple in Japan, is also without any supporting evidence. All the pictures of techniques in his book are exact duplicates of Okinawan Kenpo techniques from Choki Motobu's 1932 book "Karate-My Art", and Mizuho Mutsu's 1933 book, "Karate-Kenpo". In fact the so-called jiu jitsu techniques in Mitose's book, are exact duplicates of the joint locks and take downs in Mutsu's book. The only kata Mitose taught was the "Naihanchi" kata. A form taught in every traditional Okinawan art. And if Kosho Ryu was taught for 21 generations in Japan, and at one time over 200 monks trained at the temple, why is there no Kosho Ryu in Japan. In fact no Kosho Ryu anywhere in the world that is not tracible to anyone but James Mitose.
Most everything about Mitose's system points to his having most likely learned Okinawan Kenpo in Hawaii. There are still people living in Hawaii who knew Mitose when he was young. In fact there is a 92 year old man who was a classmate of Mitose's at a Okinawan Kenpo school in Honolulu.
Some people have made the statement that, "if someone had taught Mitose in Hawaii, he would have come forward to proclaim it". Well, you have to remember that Mitose only taught a few students for a very short period of time before deserting his wife and son, and leaving the islands. In truth, he was a nobody. Today he is famous because of his student, William Chow, and Chow's students, Ed Parker and Adriano Emperado.
These men and others, like Bobby Lowe, and Paul Yamaguichi left Mitose's system and either formed their own or joined other systems.
Today, you see a few individuals who trained with Mitose for a very short period of time before or after his incarceration claiming to know all the "hidden secrets" of the "true Kosho Ryu Kenpo". They have jumped a few kenpo generations to become so called "Kosho Masters". One individual in the east claims to have been Mitose's last student. In truth he trained with Mitose privetely for less than 12 weeks. His only claim to fame is the fact that he actually beat a 70 year old man to death to please Mitose.
If anyone ever proves that there was a event in Mitose's life where he was a truthful and honorable man, then we might be able to believe some of his other claims.

[Karazenpo]

I absolutely agree with John Bishop on Mitose's criminal record as he has been extremely helpful in assiting me in my research on the man. What I try to do is distinguish the man from the martial artist. The highly respected professor William K. S. Chow was a 'bouncer' in that brothel Mitose ran but that is no reflection on the man's ability in the arts. Years ago I originally bought the Mitose story as many did, then I became a detractor and finally I just attempted to be unbiased and open-minded. I have looked at the books in question in person with Professor Kimo Ferriera and I have to agree with my brother John, however, what throws me off is this. I had a discussion about this several years ago with my good friend Professor Gerry Scott of Hawaii. Professor Scott is a close friend of Sijo Adriano Emperado and he opted to run some questions past him posed by me. Sijo stated the 'elders' always believed the kenpo was Okinawan in origin but he said did not give any conclusive evidence why. I also asked if Mitose just had some exposure to the 'surface' arts of Okinawan Kenpo and Jui Jitsu, worked it and then 'took the ball and ran'. To that Sijo stated Mitose's ability was that of a 'master instructor'. So, it is essentially for that reason along with information from Shihan Mike Brown that I still remain open on this matter. I have really no doubt on the Okinawan connection but I would just like to wait until Shihan Brown presents his case as to any other connection. As far as his criminal record and that of Terry Lee's (Nimir Hassan) Sigung John Bishop couldn't have made it any clearer! Let me look in my files and I'll post some of what Shihan Brown gave me.............

[Karazenpo]

Here's what I got from Shihan Brown since then I have revised this to add Mitose's Okinawan connection.



Great Grandmaster James Masayoshi Mitose

21st Descendant Kosho Ryu Kempo

As many of you know, I have been doing a pretty comprehensive background check on the history of James M. Mitose and his contributions to our Kempo/Kajukenbo systems. I have been trying to be totally objective and I was never, originally, a Mitose detractor. I became disenchanted with the Mitose history when it just wouldn't hold up to scutiny, not in the least bit. In my quest, I have found some answers. Nothing will ever be totally clear and objective when it comes to the history of any martial art but what I am looking for is some factual evidence, some circumstantial evidence, a little logic and a basic framework of the man's legacy that makes sense. I have had my ups and down on it and my investigation is still not complete but here is what I feel is reasonable so far:

Let's start with Jinshi Eison, fact or fiction? Well, yes and no. Don't get me wrong I have a definite answer on that but it has a little explaining. Jinshi Eison lived in just the right time period we are looking at, circa. 1200. He studied in China, his Buddhist name was Kosho Bosatsu. So, it looks legit, right? Wrong. The Kanji used for Kosho in this case did not mean 'old pine tree'. It's like the kanji used for kara in karate. It can mean China (Tang) or empty. Eison's life was extremely well documented and nothing lined up and matched.

However, according to Mitose, Kosho ryu is a sect of Zen Buddhism based on the Rinzai Zen which was introduced into Japan in 1191 by the priest Eisai. Mitose considered Eisai, and for that matter Rinzai (lin chi) and Daruma himself as being his ancestors. This is something he prided himself on. Jinshi Eisan was a misinterpretation of Mitose's words (his English was poor). 1191 was when the religious Rinzai sect (lin chi) Kosho Shorei Ryu was founded. The martial art, Kosho Ryu wasn't developed until about 350 years later, around 1560. The Tracy's begin their lineage (which I will get to shortly) at 1232 AD with Zenko Yoshida. Not only is that the wrong clan but you couldn't possibly have 21 descendants to Mitose in that time period. Martial art ryus weren't developed that early on, those were the religious rinzai sects that started around circa.1200, the martial art came much later. They're about 350 years off!

The Yoshida lineage leads to dead ends and where did Kosho come from? Mitose had three grandfathers. Records provided to Shihan Michael Brown, the Sei Kosho Shorei Kai historian, shows three families from Japan. 1) the Mitose family (his father's side), 2) the Yoshida family (his mother's biological father), and the Kosho family (his mother's biological mother). Mitose's maternal grandparents were not married. His mother was raised by her biological father (Mr. Yoshida) until she was 17 years old, then she was adopted by her biological mother who had married into the Kosho family. Besides the obvious connection with the name Kosho, this was the only grandfather alive when Mitose arrived in Japan in October of 1920.

James Mitose's maternal grandparents were Yoshida Sakuhei (the father of Mitose Kyoka).
Kosho Toju (the mother of Mitose Kiyoka). Mitose's grandmother was not the wife of Mr. Yoshida. Kiyoka was the result of an affair. This is in the family record.

The Tracy Yoshida lineage to Kosho ryu has no merit. They do not go back to the family art of Kosho. Thje Kosho art goes back 21 generations. Mitose's grandfather that he learned the family art from was Kosho Kyohei. This is recorded in the family records although there is no written proof that he trained at the Shaka In Temple as of yet and may never be. There are records there mentioning the term Kosho ryu. A local historian, whom I do not have his name as of this posting, stated martial arts was being practiced there up until just before WW2. The Tracy's are barking up the wrong tree, lineage tree that is! They traced the wrong grandfather, Yoshida Sakuhei. He wasn't even alive when Mitose was 4 years old.

Shaka In temple. Kosho monks and martial arts: truth or fiction? Documents provided and further research to confirm this on the internet into historical records shows that in October of 1588 the warrior monks of Shaka In clashed with the forces of Konishi Yukinaga. The battlefield is perserved to this day.

I gratefully acknowledge the assistance of Shihan Mike Brown, historian of the Sei Kosho Shorei Kai for his tireless and unselfish efforts in researching this' tangled web'. All that I have learned in this post came from Shihan Brown's research and I take no credit for it other than my continuing efforts in a search for the truth on this enigma. Respectfully, Shihan Joe Shuras

*More information and further confirmations will be posted when made available.

« Last Edit: Today at 07:04:38pm by Shihan Joe Shuras » Report to moderator Logged

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[Goldendragon7]

If you examine Mitose, you will find a man with a criminal record that goes back to the 40's.

If anyone ever proves that there was an event in Mitose's life where he was a truthful and honorable man, then we might be able to believe some of his other claims.

Thanks Mr. Bishop for telling the truth about this character.

:asian:

[guito]

THANKS JOHN BISHOP AND KARAZENPO FOR THE HISTORY LESSON. WHAT ABOUT THE DAYS WHEN WILLIAM CHOW PRACTICE, WHO WAS THE INSTRUCTOR MITOSE OR THOMAS YUNG? WHY CHOW WHEN HIS OWN WAY?

[John Bishop]

In my conversations with Thomas Young in the 80s, he told me that he and William Chow trained with Mitose in his garage before they founded the "Official Self Defense Club". He said by 1946 when the "club" was officially founded, he and William Chow were already black belts. There was some friction between Mitose and Chow, so Mitose told Young to "sign" Chow's black belt certificate, even though Mitose always took credit for being Chow's teacher.
As to Chow's training before he met Mitose, there are many stories about this. One that is verifiable is the fact that Chow did train in jujitsu at Henry Okizaki's dojo before meeting Mitose. Kajukenbo co-founder Joe Holck was a classmate of Chow's at the Okizaki dojo. He said that Chow tried to talk him into going with him to "see what this kenpo stuff Mitose is teaching was like".
No one who knew Chow ever questioned his martial arts abilities. People who knew him since the 40's raved about his speed and power. Wally Jay once told me that Prof. Chow was "the fastest karate man he ever saw". In the video clip of Prof. Chow I have on my website, he's 68, and still extremely fast. Hard to imagine how he looked in his 20s-30s.

[Randy Strausbaugh]

THANKS JOHN BISHOP AND KARAZENPO FOR THE HISTORY LESSON. WHAT ABOUT THE DAYS WHEN WILLIAM CHOW PRACTICE, WHO WAS THE INSTRUCTOR MITOSE OR THOMAS YUNG? WHY CHOW WHEN HIS OWN WAY?
If memory serves, Thomas Young was officially Chow's instructor, although it was under the auspices of Mitose. As to why Chow went his own way- well, then as now, everyone wants to be the chief, no one wants to be the Indians.

[John Bishop]

If memory serves, Thomas Young was officially Chow's instructor, although it was under the auspices of Mitose.

That's not what Thomas Young told me. Did he tell you something differant?

[Randy Strausbaugh]

That's not what Thomas Young told me. Did he tell you something differant?
Nope. I read someplace (the infamous someplace) that while Chow studied with Mitose, Thomas Young promoted Chow to Shodan. Since you have direct information, I'm obviously mistaken. Please expand on this topic, for the benefit of myself and other interested parties. Thanks in advance.

[Randy Strausbaugh]

My old but under-utilized brain cells finally kicked in. I remembered where I read that Thomas Young promoted William Chow to Shodan. It was on kajukenbocafe.com.

Prof. Chow, although promoted to black belt by Thomas Young, was perhaps James Mitose top student. As the story goes, Mitose did not want to promote Chow because he was ruff and undisciplined, so he had Young promote him.
Posted on February 27, 2003 by John Bishop.
Whew... thought I was losing my mind for a while there. :)

[The Kai]

Wow

I thought I knew a little about the history, without fawning hats off to Mr Bishop!

[John Bishop]

Yes, the words "ruff and undisiplined" were Thomas Young's exact words to me. During the period of time I interviewed Thomas Young there were people putting forth the theory that Prof. Chow and Mitose were actually equals in the "Official Self Defense Club", and that the members had elected Mitose to be the head of the club.
Prof. Young wanted to put that rumor to rest, and made it clear that Mitose was his and Prof. Chow's teacher. And that his (Young) signing of Prof. Chow's certificate was not because he had been Chow's instructor.

[Matt]

Today, you see a few individuals who trained with Mitose for a very short period of time before or after his incarceration claiming to know all the "hidden secrets" of the "true Kosho Ryu Kenpo". They have jumped a few kenpo generations to become so called "Kosho Masters". One individual in the east claims to have been Mitose's last student. In truth he trained with Mitose privetely for less than 12 weeks. His only claim to fame is the fact that he actually beat a 70 year old man to death to please Mitose.
If anyone ever proves that there was a event in Mitose's life where he was a truthful and honorable man, then we might be able to believe some of his other claims.

I only quoted part of it, but the whole post was remarkable. I couldn't have said it better myself. Can I repost it? It should be required reading for everyone from this lineage.

Matt

[John Bishop]

Matt; feel free.

[Karazenpo]

Nope. I read someplace (the infamous someplace) that while Chow studied with Mitose, Thomas Young promoted Chow to Shodan. Since you have direct information, I'm obviously mistaken. Please expand on this topic, for the benefit of myself and other interested parties. Thanks in advance.

Randy, I also heard from the 'infamous someplace', lol, that Young signed Chow's certificate because it was an ethnic thing at the time, Mitose being Japanese and Chow not. However, Sigung Bishop has it right from the source so that would have to stand undisputed. As far as Mitose's criminal past I don't see how anyone can read the court transcripts and probation records and not believe this man had a very dark side to him. Despite his criminal background some, as in the O.J. case, debunk it, say he was framed, set up, whatever........ As far as my research goes the jury is in on that one. However, I still am curious to see the records of Shihan Brown. Again, it makes no difference to me whether Mitose learned a wristlock and arm bar in Japan or not, lol, I would just like truth so this matter can finally be put to rest.

[John Bishop]

Randy, I also heard from the 'infamous someplace', lol, that Young signed Chow's certificate because it was an ethnic thing at the time, Mitose being Japanese and Chow not.

I don't know who started that rumor, but the only black belts of Mitose's who had Japanese blood were Jiro Nakamura and Paul Yamaguichi. William Chow, Thomas Young, and Bobby Lowe, were of Chinese heritage. Arthur Keave was Hawaiian.

[guito]

chow's clip its great thats a collectors item , again thanks bishop:) .kenpo its great , mitose where a very controversial guy and theres still people who believe and keep preaching he was a saint , he's abilite and his moves ,for a has read ,he uses the wrong way thats why he end in jail .the people who practice with him and he influence like chow ,endup doing great things and teaching people like parker,emperado, tracy and others that their teaching has croos all over the world .right know i am in a little island call puerto rico 100 of miles from where all begins asking about mitose ,and find out that kosho people over here in the island need to study kenpo history more and stop talking things they don't know.john bishop and karazenpo keep the good work .:asian:

[John Bishop]

Guito:
We've got a lot of good Kajukenbo people in Puerto Rico. If you get the chance, check out one of their schools.

http://www.kajukenbo.org/schools/index.asp#PR

[Karazenpo]

Yeah, John, that's why I dismissed it right away. I had checked into Young and Lowe and found out their ethnic origin. Another thing about the Mitose enigma were those infamous prison visits of Bruce Juchnik. Now, I too, had said to myself how can you receive any type of training or anything else for that matter that would put you as head of a system? About three years ago I started corresponding via e-mail and telephone with Professor Eugene Sedeno whom I know you also think a lot of. One time we must have talked a couple of hours on these prison visits, Juchnik and Mitose. Reason being Professor Sedeno had made those visits also and before someone else says it, yes, Professor Sedeno received a 'Master's Certificate' from Mitose. Some of our conversation was confidential but some was open. First let me state I have the highest respect for the Professor. He is the real thing, his character, his training and credentials are immpecable. That being said, Professor Sedeno did not 'need' a master's certificate from Mitose for any legitimacy! The Professor told me the visits were basically 'unrestricted'. They would go outside to a grassy area if I recall with picnic tables and talk about Kosho ryu. The guards went about their business and did not supervise these visits. Mitose would explain things sometimes using hand gestures and telling them where to look and what to research in regards to his Kosho ryu. Now please, before anyone reading this feels they want to throw a shot a me for this post, bear in mind-'don't shoot the messenger'. We are here on this forum to learn and exchange information. All I'm doing is giving you insight as John Bishop did with his interview with Thomas Young. These visits are very controversial. If I were to ask Bruce Juchnik the consensus would be he would be biased for he is profiting from his position on the Mitose issue. I agree. So, what's the best way to get information on this matter then talking to someone who was there! Secondly someone of immpecable character and someone not profiting from the situation. Professor Sedeno has his own lineage and credentials. Now, I have my own personal feelings as to who is the true successor to this art and it would start with Thomas Young and his successor. I have looked into some of the curriculum of Bruce Juchnik and found the katas to be traditional Okinawan karate forms. Now, did Mitose confide in him of his Okinawan training in Hawaii and suggest he goes back to this system to advance his understanding of this art or did Juchnik take it upon himself? I have no idea. Again, my personal beliefs are not the issue here, I am just attempting to report as much fact as possible. I was a history major in college and found that the history of the martial arts are no different than the history of our nation and the world. It can be very subjective and opinionated in respect to each individual reporting it. I am trying be best to keep my own biases out of it and maintain an open mind. As in my training in investigation procedures in law enforcemnet taught me it's very important to keep an open mind. If I may quote from "Cold Case Review"-'Ideas and comments from the Arnold Market Symposium and Workshop 2004-Prepared by Trooper Daniel G. Richard of the Massachusetts State Police Crime Prevention and Control Unit-C-P.A.C.:

5. 'Don't fall in love with one theory'. Ruling out any and all possible subjects is as important as proving the case against one suspect. Do not make the facts fit your idea of what happened.


Again, that's all I'm trying to do and it ain't easy, lol. Professor Joe Shuras

[Karazenpo]

You're welcome, guito. Let me throw this one around. A few posts ago I stated I had asked Professor Gerry Scott if he would respectfully propose a few questions to Sijo Emperado for me. One of Sijo's replies were that Mitose had the abilities of a master instructor. This has been long posted on the Kajukenbo Cafe for anyone's verification. Now, go to John Bishop's Kajukenbo page (outstanding web site with a wealth of information and history) and check out the interview with Sijo. He stated he trained under both Chow and Mitose but considered Chow his instructor. He also stated he received a master's certificate but, to paraphrase, didn't put much stock into it because at that time Mitose was selling high ranks for big bucks. My question would be, Sjio is being very candid and forthcoming when questioned about Mitose. He appears to be unbiased and gives 'the devil his due' when deserved. If he had any doubts about Mitose as a master instructor it would have been out of character for him to b.s. anyone. Know what I mean? He wasn't shy on him selling rank ceritificates!

[Gentle Fist]

This has turned out to be a great post, I could read what you guys post for hours.

The only story I ever heard of Mitose and Juchnik was...Keep in mind it came from a pro-Juchnik guy so who knows if it is even true.

Juchnik,then an EPAK guy, came to meet Mitose for the first time and to get advice. Mitose at first said no, and posed the question, "Why should I show you anything". Mitose then asked Juchnik to try to punch him. So, the then cocky Juchnik came after Mitose with a punch, Mitose did something called a Phantom Punch and leveled Juchnik. From what I was told, a Phantom Punch is when you evade an incoming punch and quickly strike the back of the head of the passing opponent. If done correctly the tori seems to vanish from the attacker's eye sight. From then on Juchnik was all ears to what Mitose would say and ask of him.

[Randy Strausbaugh]

Yes, the words "ruff and undisiplined" were Thomas Young's exact words to me. During the period of time I interviewed Thomas Young there were people putting forth the theory that Prof. Chow and Mitose were actually equals in the "Official Self Defense Club", and that the members had elected Mitose to be the head of the club.
Prof. Young wanted to put that rumor to rest, and made it clear that Mitose was his and Prof. Chow's teacher. And that his (Young) signing of Prof. Chow's certificate was not because he had been Chow's instructor.
Thank you for the clarification. Yet another piece of the ever-expanding Kenpo history puzzle fits into place. :asian:

[Mekugi]

Quick question:

Where exactly is the proof of an alleged 500 year old martial art, without any densho, makimono or anything else to back it up inside Japan, ever existed in Japan at all? (btw...that's not exactly 100% true, Bugeiryuha Daijiten does have an entry for Kosho ryu...listed as "Karate").

Better yet, since none of these documents seem to exist, does it really matter? Past James Mitose, unless one can come up with some solid documentation, it doesn't seem worth the effort either.

[Karazenpo]

Quick question:

Where exactly is the proof of an alleged 500 year old martial art, without any densho, makimono or anything else to back it up inside Japan, ever existed in Japan at all? (btw...that's not exactly 100% true, Bugeiryuha Daijiten does have an entry for Kosho ryu...listed as "Karate").

Better yet, since none of these documents seem to exist, does it really matter? Past James Mitose, unless one can come up with some solid documentation, it doesn't seem worth the effort either.

Hello Russ, good questions. Shihan Mike Brown, historian of the Sei Kosho Shorei Kai told me he has made several trips to Japan and has this documentation in his possession. He has released some information which I have posted on this forum. However, he is in the process of publishing a book in which he told me, to paraphrase, this enigma of James Mitose would be revealed with verifiable documentation. Shihan Brown lives near me and I can attest first hand that he has an excellent reputation in the arts, in both character and ability. Hopefully, his book will be out soon. Respectfully, Professor Joe Shuras

[Mekugi]

Hi! Thanks for the info.
I am sure the book will be interesting.
I think I have met Mike Brown in Oregon some many years ago (if this was the same gentleman).

Past possibly Koseki Tohon, public records and local history, does he have densho, makimono or meibo??
-R

Hello Russ, good questions. Shihan Mike Brown, historian of the Sei Kosho Shorei Kai told me he has made several trips to Japan and has this documentation in his possession. He has released some information which I have posted on this forum. However, he is in the process of publishing a book in which he told me, to paraphrase, this enigma of James Mitose would be revealed with verifiable documentation. Shihan Brown lives near me and I can attest first hand that he has an excellent reputation in the arts, in both character and ability. Hopefully, his book will be out soon. Respectfully, Professor Joe Shuras

[Karazenpo]

Past possibly Koseki Tohon and public records and local history, does he have densho, makimono or meibo??
-R


Don't know Russ but I'll give you his e-mail address and you can write him. Joe

rimartialarts@cox.net

[Mekugi]

Thanks Joe!!

I am going to write him in about 3 minutes, actually I am going to invite him to come to the forum and speak a litte bit about his book (the best blurbs IMHO).



Don't know Russ but I'll give you his e-mail address and you can write him. Joe

rimartialarts@cox.net

Always,

[punisher73]

I know this may be slightly off topic but I just thought I would throw it in the pile.

When talking about Mitose's lineage and where he actually learned it, it was rumored that he was the nephew of Choki Motobu and it was his system that he really learned (thus why he only taught Nihanchi). I watched an interview with Choki's son and he stated that Mitose was not any relation to his father.

[Karazenpo]

I know this may be slightly off topic but I just thought I would throw it in the pile.

When talking about Mitose's lineage and where he actually learned it, it was rumored that he was the nephew of Choki Motobu and it was his system that he really learned (thus why he only taught Nihanchi). I watched an interview with Choki's son and he stated that Mitose was not any relation to his father.

No Punisher, not off topic at all. Yes, you are correct as from what I heard also. There is no relation. However, there seems to be documentation coming out that Mitose studied under Naburu Tanamaha in Hawaii. Tanamaha was either a first or second generation Motobu, hense, the similiarites between what Mitose taught and Motobu's Okinawan Shorei ryu Kempo. Mitose was also friendly with Gm. Robert Trias also of the Motobu lineage. I have corresponded with Dr. Roberta Trias-Kelley who has confirmed this. There may have also been an exchange of knowledge from this source also. Like I stated in an early post, it's still up un the air but we're getting closer to the truth as time goes on. I, myself, find it very interesting.

[TIGER DRAGON FIGHT]

i no idea (;