Pressure points

[tshadowchaser]

This thread is for the disscussion of various pressure points and their application to the martial arts.
I know that the points have an "old name' and a new "numeric letter" name so if those disscussing a certian point would please give both ( if they know them) it would help.
If a certian point is used, as say, a knock out point, can we disscuss if it needs to be used in conjuntion with other points to accomplish the end results, or if it is a stand alone point.
If a point is used to cause a certain result (diarrhea ) lets discuss if the attack is best a straight pressure or if it needs to be rotated as in an acupressure point. Lets also discuss if it is on a meridian or not. Alsollets discuss in such a area if a counter measure can be used.
I know there may be some dissagrement on some of what is to be discussed but please lets try to keep the discussion polite and respectful. By doing so more information can be gained

Now I remember the point used to cause diarrhea was discusse donce befor but it might be a good point to start once again . So anyone want to be the first to give some knowlege of this point. After this one I'll let you guys pick one.

[Matt Stone]

One of my favorite striking points is located on the head of the humerus, and is exposed when the arm is retracted rearward (as in withdrawing it opposite the punching hand in a traditional reverse punch). This retraction causes the anterior head of the deltoid muscle to stretch and thin out, exposing the musculocutaneous nerve running directly beneath it (and directly over the head of the humerus). Hitting the tip of the shoulder, even with a relatively light but solid blow, when it is so positioned causes quite a bit of discomfort and an inability to use the arm effectively for quite a while. A hard blow will render the arm nearly useless for several minutes - far long enough to deal with whatever else the opponent may have in store for you.

We call that point "shoulder cutting," and is roughly equivalently located to LI 15. It isn't that we are striking the acupuncture point (though it certainly does get struck), it is simply an anatomical target.

I like to employ this point when approached with a low line punch or hook.

Assuming my attacker is attacking with a right punch, I present my left arm, moving it parallel to the ground, perpendicular to the punching arm of my opponent, deflecting his punch downward (so it is sloppily similar to a low block, but not quite - it is more of a forearm smash, moving into the wrap) as I wrap my left arm through his elbow crease and under his armpit. This gets the opponent into a "chicken wing," half nelson position, and we are nearly side by side, shoulder to shoulder. As I wrap my arm up and around, retracting his arm rearward as described above, the "shoulder cutting" point is exposed. So, placing my left hand on the opponent's right shoulder blade, I "punch my own hand" through his "shoulder cutting" point.

From that initial strike I move on into other more debilitating strikes to incapacitate the opponent.

[ppko]

My favorite point is TW23 located at the temple the correct angle and direction is back towards the eye best if struck while the individual is bent over. There is a small bone located there and is one of the weakest bones in the human body when hit correctly it breaks off and could cause blindness.


PPKO

[Flatlander]

What makes this your favorite point?

[ppko]

What makes this your favorite point?It works on anyone no matter size or weight.
PPKO

[Flatlander]

What particular method of arriving at your target do you use? And in what way would you choose to strike this point? I'm talking first about dealing with the opponent's defense (or offense), and second about the poition of your hand (fist, finger jab, etc.)

[7starmantis]

My favorite point is TW23 located at the temple the correct angle and direction is back towards the eye best if struck while the individual is bent over. There is a small bone located there and is one of the weakest bones in the human body when hit correctly it breaks off and could cause blindness.


PPKO
I'm not trying to question you or attack you, but I'm completely unaware of a bone in that location that would break off and cause blindness. Could you give us the name of that bone? Interesting.

7sm

[arnisador]

Mr. Stone, we use that point with the chicken wing lock in Modern Arnis, but usually by pressing on the nerve, not by striking it. However, while I've used it, I've never seen such an explanation of why that position is a good one to access that nerve. It's interesting to see it.

[Turbo]

I like pericardium 2 (tianquan)and or 3(Quze) in the bicep....I can stike it from numerous positions causing chi drainage and disruption.

When someone is hitting with a jab or cross slip outside, hook into the bicep....like a gunting in JKD! Follow up with a strike to SI 17 (Tianrong).

If anyone trys this give me some feedback and let me know what you get...this will be a yin and yang attack.
Turbo

[Matt Stone]

My favorite point is TW23 located at the temple the correct angle and direction is back towards the eye best if struck while the individual is bent over. There is a small bone located there and is one of the weakest bones in the human body when hit correctly it breaks off and could cause blindness.

And...


It works on anyone no matter size or weight.

You know this precisely how? Given that the end result is the displacement of shards of broken bone into the eye, I suspect you don't practice this one often...


Mr. Stone,...

No need to be so formal... We've known each other for quite a while, and given our association with John Lehmann, we're almost family! :)


we use that point with the chicken wing lock in Modern Arnis, but usually by pressing on the nerve, not by striking it.

It is a good point for seizing or striking, but given its location (at least for me) I like to hit it more than anything else. The nice thing about this particular point, given its sensitivity, is that even in general instruction a light "pokey poke" with a finger lets the student know the point will work... Hitting it with a good solid fist just makes instruction entertaining!


However, while I've used it, I've never seen such an explanation of why that position is a good one to access that nerve. It's interesting to see it.

In our training group, we have Chufeng (who is a nurse anesthetist), Bill (a nurse anesthetist student), Mark (a former paramedic and current med school student), Jose and Joe (two surgical techs), and me (I'm now a certified EMT). We have a language to share, and given our collective knowledge of anatomy, simply saying "hit here" just isn't sufficient... Having a working understanding of the underlying physiology of a technique makes your overall understanding that much deeper. Does the technique work better? Not necessarily, but I think the person better educated is better prepared to enter into different training situations. Just a personal opinion.

[Dronak]

The nice thing about this particular point, given its sensitivity, is that even in general instruction a light "pokey poke" with a finger lets the student know the point will work...


I've just got to say that when I saw your first post about this pressure point, that's basically what I started doing, trying to poke around and see if I could find the spot. :) I figured if I got it, I'd feel something, enough to know I found the right place. I don't think I found it yet. But I think I found and saved pictures of pressure point locations on the body so maybe if I refer back to them, I'll be able to find it.

BTW, I think this could be a very interesting discussion if there are enough people here who know details of the pressure points (and will share). Out of curiosity, has anyone covered the point that tshadowchaser was talking about in the first post? It didn't look like it to me, but I don't know much about this subject.

[Turbo]

I would like to comment on points but there is more than one point that can cause diarrhea, a point location would be helpful if you dont know which one it is, does anyone else know which point he is referring to?

PPKO try slapping (with finger tips) Back to front with a slight downward motion on TW23 to also catch GB1 combined with a shot to stomach 5....something I saw a Kyusho Instructor Teaching, I have been working with mixed results.

Matt where is this point or target in the shoulder located, I would like to give this a smack and see what I get....is it the same as LI 15?

Turbo

[ppko]

I can't remember the name of the bone I know its hollow though. We prctice this point with light slaps. I ussually like accessing it off of a armbar ( ussually affecting TW11, or 12 ) then lighlty slap the point and the person will deffinately feel like they want to pass out. Another good point to access off of the Armbar is TW17 located right below the ear, and behind the jaw line lightly tapping this ussually give the same affect.


PPKO

[Matt Stone]

Matt where is this point or target in the shoulder located, I would like to give this a smack and see what I get....is it the same as LI 15?

Read my post again... I'll reference acupuncture points for those who *ahem* :rolleyes: "use" acupuncture points for striking (even though I don't necessarily believe that is what they are doing). However, it must be borne in mind at all times that the points people are hitting, though they may be co-located with an acupuncture point, are not all acupuncture points.

"Shoulder Cutting" is located as I described above... On the head of the humerus, exposed for striking when the arm is retracted as in the rear, non-striking hand of a traditional punch. It isn't LI 15, though they are close together. And though the "size of a quarter" comment may seem to indicate that LI 15 and "Shoulder Cutting" are the same, they are not. "Shoulder Cutting" is nothing more than a nerve point, affecting the nerve as I described above.

If you have trouble finding it, pull your hand back as described, and start "knocking" on your shoulder with the other fist. You'll find it.

[Cdnronin]

Matt, there is a similar technique described in a book called Boxing for Beginners
and Bayonet Fighting by William Jacomb(1918). On page 41"As opponent starts his swing advance right hand,glove open and meet his upper arm firmly. Make no effort to knock or push the blow off to the side. Meet the upper arm with a shock." I understand the same technique is described in Jacomb's self defense book as well,however my copy is in transit. Hmm, turn of the century Canadian boxing manuals? Amazing what you can find.

[Cdnronin]

I can't remember the name of the bone I know its hollow though. We prctice this point with light slaps. I ussually like accessing it off of a armbar ( ussually affecting TW11, or 12 ) then lighlty slap the point and the person will deffinately feel like they want to pass out. Another good point to access off of the Armbar is TW17 located right below the ear, and behind the jaw line lightly tapping this ussually give the same affect.


PPKOPerhaps using the drawing from Gray's Anatomy to refresh your memory would help you remember the name of the bone that can be broken on your favorite pressure point. Out of curiousity, as you describe the desired results of this strike as bone breaking and blinding, how do you train it?
http://www.bartleby.com/107/illus164.html

[RHD]

Perhaps using the drawing from Gray's Anatomy to refresh your memory would help you remember the name of the bone that can be broken on your favorite pressure point. Out of curiousity, as you describe the desired results of this strike as bone breaking and blinding, how do you train it?
http://www.bartleby.com/107/illus164.html

Nice image Cdnronin.

I have to ask if the blindness thing is something that has been witness or experienced first hand, or is it one of those things taken on faith because a teacher says it will happen.

I am a firm believer in the effectiveness of pressure points for striking and grappling. However, I will not ever accept "this happens because my teacher told me so" as an answer for anything in martial application, pressure point or no. Granted, no one wants to volunteer for experimentation with this particular claim, but nonethless I have to ask where the evidence for this actually happening is coming from?

Mike

[Matt Stone]

Hmm, turn of the century Canadian boxing manuals? Amazing what you can find.

There is nothing new under the sun... In 5000 years of Chinese history, the longest continuing record of human experience, I doubt very seriously that anyone will ever "discover" something unique. I think all we can do is understand things better in light of new technological advances that allow us to perceive the world around us in greater detail.


My favorite point is TW23 located at the temple...

According to my acupuncture text, SJ (not TW) 23, more properly known as Sizhukong, is "located in the depression at the lateral end of the eyebrow." This isn't "at the temple" as PPKO indicated, but rather is located on the lateral superior aspect of the supraorbital ridge. In Yiliquan, we call this point "silk bamboo hollow." My Chinese isn't really up to par, so maybe someone else (Robert?) can translate Sizhukong for me...

PPKO properly indicated the angle the point should be struck at (inward and downward, toward the orbit proper), but this bone is not "one of the weakest bones in the human body," nor will it "break off" when struck... It may be possible to crush the suprorbital ridge, impacting it into the orbit (e.g. hitting the face with a baseball bat will do the trick), but I doubt such an injury would be likely to occur by striking that particular point.

Our training indicates that this point is simply co-located with SJ 23, and that it is a nerve point affecting a branch of the facial nerve. Light strikes are stunning in effect, harder strikes may cause severe concussion (i.e. "bouncing of the brain").

I'm not trying to "bash" DKI nor PPKO, but I would submit that their belief that this point will possibly cause blindness is more hype than anything else. Granted, nobody is going to pony up and be the demo dummy to see what'd happen, but given the anatomy of that part of the body, the strength of the underlying bone and muscle structure, I'd say that the concussion effect is the most likely result.

How's that for "serious discussion?"

[shesulsa]

In Hwarang Do, we mainly use pressure points for pain complaince - contain and control. I don't think all of these are on meridians, but I could be wrong...will have to ask.

[ppko]

Perhaps using the drawing from Gray's Anatomy to refresh your memory would help you remember the name of the bone that can be broken on your favorite pressure point. Out of curiousity, as you describe the desired results of this strike as bone breaking and blinding, how do you train it?
http://www.bartleby.com/107/illus164.htmlJust with a light slap we never hit TW23 real hard just with a light slap. Sorry I didn't see the bone in your pic but I thank you for the try.
PPKO

[ppko]

Nice image Cdnronin.

I have to ask if the blindness thing is something that has been witness or experienced first hand, or is it one of those things taken on faith because a teacher says it will happen.

I am a firm believer in the effectiveness of pressure points for striking and grappling. However, I will not ever accept "this happens because my teacher told me so" as an answer for anything in martial application, pressure point or no. Granted, no one wants to volunteer for experimentation with this particular claim, but nonethless I have to ask where the evidence for this actually happening is coming from?

MikeThe bone is hollow and the reason why we know it will break off is from going to different colleges and looking at the human body ( my college was NKU I attended NKU in 1999 ). I was able to dissect a human body their and was very helpful in understanding the human body and the effects that certain trauma can cause.

PPKO

[RHD]

The bone is hollow and the reason why we know it will break off is from going to different colleges and looking at the human body ( my college was NKU I attended NKU in 1999 ). I was able to dissect a human body their and was very helpful in understanding the human body and the effects that certain trauma can cause.

PPKO

I see, but my point is that you've never physically experienced striking this point and having the bone (zygomatic) break off and cause blindness. Rather you theorize or have been taught the theory that this will happen. A theory needs to be proven or disproven. Unfortunately, I doubt tht there will be many volunteers lining up.

As a side note, I'm fond of TW-11, and H-2 I like this points for chin na applications and I've never encountered anyone who did not respond to them with severe pain.

Mike

[Jim Perkins]

I see, but my point is that you've never physically experienced striking this point and having the bone (zygomatic) break off and cause blindness. Rather you theorize or have been taught the theory that this will happen. A theory needs to be proven or disproven. Unfortunately, I doubt tht there will be many volunteers lining up.
Hi Mike, If I may jump in here I agree with you on the location of TW23 and the bone theory. The danger I believe here is an incorrectly placed strike on this one, because of the optic nerve and if you miss the strike on TW23 and if the optic nerve was damaged that could cause blindness.

I like PC 6 + TW12 for given weak knees.:)

Jim

[Matt Stone]

The bone is hollow...

The human skeleton, to my knowledge, has no hollow bones. Birds have hollow bones, we do not.


...and the reason why we know it will break off is from going to different colleges and looking at the human body ( my college was NKU I attended NKU in 1999 ). I was able to dissect a human body their and was very helpful in understanding the human body and the effects that certain trauma can cause.

So they allowed you to strike the cadaver and after doing so you dissected the cadaver's head and observed the effects of the strike? If this is the case, riddle me this - how long did you say you'd been studying DKI stuff? I seem to recall you implying it had only been the last few years, certainly not as far back as 1999...

If you were not studying DKI in 1999, and you were attending some other college class that allowed you to view a dissected human cadaver, how could you state with certainty and authority the pseudo-science you are using to substantiate your claim?

Just come clean and admit you don't know certain things about the points you are hitting... At least that honesty will allow you the chance to start learning what is really happening instead of clinging to the "magic" of pseudo-kyusho...

[RRouuselot]

The human skeleton, to my knowledge, has no hollow bones. Birds have hollow bones, we do not.



So they allowed you to strike the cadaver and after doing so you dissected the cadaver's head and observed the effects of the strike? If this is the case, riddle me this - how long did you say you'd been studying DKI stuff? I seem to recall you implying it had only been the last few years, certainly not as far back as 1999...

If you were not studying DKI in 1999, and you were attending some other college class that allowed you to view a dissected human cadaver, how could you state with certainty and authority the pseudo-science you are using to substantiate your claim?

Just come clean and admit you don't know certain things about the points you are hitting... At least that honesty will allow you the chance to start learning what is really happening instead of clinging to the "magic" of pseudo-kyusho...

I know some Universities allow Gov. Organizations and certain medical companies to do private experiments on cadavers for military and scientific research, which costs them A LOT of money………since when do they authorize students to do so?

Answer: They don’t!

[ppko]

The human skeleton, to my knowledge, has no hollow bones. Birds have hollow bones, we do not.



So they allowed you to strike the cadaver and after doing so you dissected the cadaver's head and observed the effects of the strike? If this is the case, riddle me this - how long did you say you'd been studying DKI stuff? I seem to recall you implying it had only been the last few years, certainly not as far back as 1999...

If you were not studying DKI in 1999, and you were attending some other college class that allowed you to view a dissected human cadaver, how could you state with certainty and authority the pseudo-science you are using to substantiate your claim?

Just come clean and admit you don't know certain things about the points you are hitting... At least that honesty will allow you the chance to start learning what is really happening instead of clinging to the "magic" of pseudo-kyusho...Yes you are right, but I never claimed to be with DKI at that time, nor did I claim to strike the cadaver. I did however examine the cadaver in anatomy class and that is how I found out about the bone. I was a student at NKU and once I started training with DKI George said it and it also happens to be in the area so that is how I can say that with certainty.
PPKO

[Flatlander]

I think your definition of certainty is a bit less particular than mine. Regardless, what study did you then conduct in order to evaluate your theory? Did you handle the cadaver?

[ppko]

I think your definition of certainty is a bit less particular than mine. Regardless, what study did you then conduct in order to evaluate your theory? Did you handle the cadaver?Yes we dissected the cadaver me and my partner to discover more about it. The reason I can say what I did is because I was told by my prof. it was one of the weakest bones in the human body and George is the one that stated it breaking off to cause blindness it makes sense to me.
PPKO

[gusano]

The human skeleton, to my knowledge, has no hollow bones. Birds have hollow bones, we do not...
Matt,The strongest bone in the body, the thighbone, is hollow. Ounce for ounce, it has a greater pressure tolerance and bearing strength than a rod of equivalent size made of cast steel..

I believe that the lacrimal bone is the weakest and may be what the original poster was referring to. No idea if it causes blindness when broken, but being the weakest bone I'm sure it's not uncommon to break. I know that there are points on the body more vital than others but some of these posts are......creepy.

[RHD]

Yes we dissected the cadaver me and my partner to discover more about it. The reason I can say what I did is because I was told by my prof. it was one of the weakest bones in the human body and George is the one that stated it breaking off to cause blindness it makes sense to me.
PPKO


This is the problem...
I don't mean to pick on you ppko, but because a professor and Mr. Dillman told you so, doesn't mean it happens. I've known many college professors to live off of theory alone. I think we all know that getting hit in the temple or temple area is bad news. Causing blindness is speculation. Its like saying "90% of all fights end up on the ground" because Hoyce Gracie says so. I'd like to see hard evidence to back that up.

What I'm curious about is the focus on knocking people out with pressure points. I understand that an unconscious opponent is a lot easier to deal with, but I have to wonder how many people are actually able to use pressure point knock outs when its life or death and the adrenaline is pumping.

Mike

[RRouuselot]

This is the problem...
I don't mean to pick on you ppko, but because a professor and Mr. Dillman told you so, doesn't mean it happens. I've known many college professors to live off of theory alone. I think we all know that getting hit in the temple or temple area is bad news. Causing blindness is speculation. Its like saying "90% of all fights end up on the ground" because Hoyce Gracie says so. I'd like to see hard evidence to back that up.

What I'm curious about is the focus on knocking people out with pressure points. I understand that an unconscious opponent is a lot easier to deal with, but I have to wonder how many people are actually able to use pressure point knock outs when its life or death and the adrenaline is pumping.

Mike
Hence my previous comment about the down side of practicing on a willing opponent that stands there and waits for it.

[Matt Stone]

Got this from here (http://www.ecsu.ctstateu.edu/depts/edu/textbooks/skeleton.html)

"Each bone is comprised of three major sections, the compact bone, the soft bone marrow, and the sponge bone. The soft bone marrow is found within the hollow center of the bone - this is where red blood cells are produced."

So if this is what is meant by "hollow," then fine. But hollow in the sense that one of the facial bones is devoid of substance in the middle, and therefore easier to break? I disagree.

The point described by PPKO, TW/SJ 23, is located on the lateral aspect of the supraorbital ridge. The lacrimal bone is located on the medial wall of the orbit, entirely opposite the point being struck. Because of this, I don't believe the lacrimal bone is what PPKO is talking about breaking.

[Flatlander]

Okay, the first time I had ever heard of this/these particular art(s) was in the NTKO thread. After a couple of weeks of reading these posts, I'm becoming intrigued.

Mr. Rouuselot, Mr. Stone, can you recommend any good books on the subject for someone totally unfamiliar?

Thanks.

[RRouuselot]

Okay, the first time I had ever heard of this/these particular art(s) was in the NTKO thread. After a couple of weeks of reading these posts, I'm becoming intrigued.

Mr. Rouuselot, Mr. Stone, can you recommend any good books on the subject for someone totally unfamiliar?

Thanks.I know one or two but they are in Chinese.
The best way is to get a "qualified" teacher.....books & "secret scrolls" can only teach a little of the concept but not application, you really need to find someone that knows there stuff.
If you tell me which area you live in I might be able to introduce you to someone.

[Flatlander]

I seek no secret scroll, just info. I can't afford travelling, and am in the middle of nowhere. (Canada). But I can't read chinese. I know a bit of French, but not conversational. And that only helps me at the grocery store when the boxes are facing backwards.

[RRouuselot]

I seek no secret scroll, just info. I can't afford travelling, and am in the middle of nowhere. (Canada). But I can't read chinese. I know a bit of French, but not conversational. And that only helps me at the grocery store when the boxes are facing backwards.

Let me look around for something in English.
Did you want a book on location of points or something that tells you how to whack 'em?

[Flatlander]

Whatever you can find, sir. Both would be helpful, if possible. Thank you.