Kyusho Jitsu

[ppko]

Hello all, my name is Joe Morris, and I am openning up this thread for anyone who has questions about pressure point fighting. I currently study under Grandmaster T.A. Frazer, one of George Dillmans top three. So any questions at all I will answer, but I will not respond to attacks against Kyusho Jitsu.

Best Regards,
Joe Morris

[Michael Billings]

On behalf of the MartialTalk Admin/Moderators WELCOME! I look forward to the dialogue. I have done a couple of seminars with Joe Lansdale, who founded Shen Chuan, and he and Mr. Dillman are acquanted. Lots of fun watching people literally, fall out when you give them a light tap in the right place.

There is a place for it to blend into Mr. Parker's American Kenpo with our trying to "pinpoint" targets. The gross motor stuff works, it is just more fun to be precise and accurate with an understanding of the physiology of what you are doing.

Your initial post seemed somewhat defensive. Are there problems you are anticipating? We have mechanisms in place to control threads that get out of control. It is somewhat disconcerting for me to have someone post a statement that in some way, attempts to control the dialogue that is sometimes necessary for newbys ... and some old timers, to learn something new.

Once again, welcome aboard and glad to have you with us.
http://martialtalk.com/forum/images/smilies/smileJap.gif
-Michael

[ppko]

Thank you for the welcome, and the only reason I posted the thread like I did was problems that I have had on other forums

Joe Morris

[terryl965]

Well i have a question for you, my father was in the marine old time marines, trained in japan and korea, tought judo and karate for 26 of his 32 years,anyway there is a pressure point in the foot that helps to relieve cramps without having to walk it out or rubb it out, do you know it or maybe a book on the right way to do it without hurting someone..unfortunitly I never learned this from my father should have I know but from some reason always, guess he would be around, and by the way any good books or seminars you know please private message them to me I'm in Texas.... God Bless America and welcome to this forum alot of great people here I can tell you that they have giving so much insight to me and my family.. Have a great time with everyone here....

[Kempojujutsu]

lightly tap or hit the area with a palm, rub the area in a circlar motion. Message the area with the flat parts of your hand or fingers. Don't press with the finger tips. The point you maybe refering to is KD1 which is on the bottom of the foot. It is in the depression of the sole of the foot.

[Shinzu]

welcome ppko!

this forum is very different than other forums. we act as a family and learn as individuals. it is very open minded and we welcome the knowledge of others.

please give us a little background on yourself. again... welcome to MT!!

[ppko]

Terryl965,

I can honestly say no I don't know at this time but check back Mon., or Tues and I will try to find out I am about ready to go see George in PA. and will ask some people their.

Joe Morris

[MJS]

Welcome to the forum. I've seen a few Dillman tapes with him doing his KO's, and I was pretty impressed. One thing that I'd like to see though, esp. on the tapes, is some KO's with the 'attackers' moving. It seems like most of the time, all you see is him doing the KO with the other guy just standing there. I would think that with movement, its going to be a little harder to hit the spots.

Can you shed some light on this?

Mike

[ppko]

Shinzu,

I started training in the martial arts 10 years ago, under Tim Foster he taught me Shotokan, Shin Gi Tai Jujitsu, Combat Gung-Fu, and Aikijujitsu. Well eventually he stopped teaching so I stopped learning. Well I went on a search for a good school and passed up about 100 or so until I ran into Dusty Seale (also a George Dillman student) and I got back into the martial arts, Dusty wasn't there long and turned the place over to T.A. Frazerand that is where my learning really took off, I started training in Ryukyu Kempo, Kyusho Jitsu, Jodoryu Jujitsu,and Kiai Jitsu.

Best Regards,
Joe Morris
PS. I am going away this wekend so I will answer any questions on Mon., or Tues.

[ppko]

Mjs,

When you see that the person is standing still it is to show people how the knock-out is done. When George films these he films them in a seminar setting and just like you we are still learning and so is George. If the knockouts were performed at full speed you also have a better chace of injuring the person and we wouldn't be able to see what happened.

Best Regards
Joe Morris

[Shinzu]

very cool. i also trained in shotokan for quite some time. welcome again!

[MJS]

Mjs,

When you see that the person is standing still it is to show people how the knock-out is done. When George films these he films them in a seminar setting and just like you we are still learning and so is George. If the knockouts were performed at full speed you also have a better chace of injuring the person and we wouldn't be able to see what happened.

Best Regards
Joe Morris

Thanks for the reply. The reason I asked this, is due to some encounters I've had when teaching students a Kenpo tech. For example, I used to teach the tech. slow at first, and then faster. This, at times, would often make students question if the tech. would actually work when someone was trying to hit you at a much faster speed. I then changed that method of teaching, and first demo'd the tech. faster and then slower to eliminate that doubt.

I do understand what you're saying though. Due to the learning aspect and precise spots that you have to hit, going slow is the only way to really pick it up. However, then it seems to just stop there. After doing it slow, showing the tech. at a quicker speed, with movement, may give the student a better visual aid as to what its going to be like to apply it.

Mike

[arnisador]

What's Kiai Jitsu?

[ppko]

Sound fighting and healing

[7starmantis]

Welcome to the boards ppko, I think you will find this a different environment than other MA forums.

As far as Kiai Jitsu, do you have a website or someplace we could go to learn more about it? I am not familiar with it, but would be interested in hearing its history and what type of techniques and principles it uses.

7sm

[theletch1]

kiai-jutsu (http://www.yorkkarate.com/York_Karate_Event_registration/Kai%20Jitsu%20Seminar.pdf)

Did a search for Kiai jutsu and came up with this. I've heard of healing with sound waves before. I've also seen research for using sound generating weapons for crowd control. Using these principles in a martial art is very cool.

Welcome to the board PPKO. Folks here generally try to be very accomodating to everyone else. Our pissing matches are few and far between and usually shut down quickly by the mods.

[KyleShort]

Hi ppko,

I'd like to know what constitutes an "attack" on kyushu jitsu? This is not meant to be antogonistic in anyway at all, but I'd like to know if this thread is open to disagreement. Is this only a thread for those people who agree with the concepts of your art?

I for one do believe in pressure points for pain application, but I have yet to see empirical studies that support the efficacy of kyushu jitsu for knockouts etc. Are you willing to discuss this, or should I keep such questioning to myslef? Out of respect, I wish to not deviate from the intent of your topic.

Thanks and welcome!

[Kempojujutsu]

I don't know much about it. I do know this guy has done some major work on it. His name is Gary Rooks his web site is www.home.fuse.net/Rookskarate/index.html

Once you get to his home page, click on resourse at the top of the page click on that link which will give you a description of what sound projection is.

He use to be with Dillman, now him and several other top martial artist have formed Kyusho International. There site is www.kyusho.com
Bob

[ppko]

Welcome to the boards ppko, I think you will find this a different environment than other MA forums.

As far as Kiai Jitsu, do you have a website or someplace we could go to learn more about it? I am not familiar with it, but would be interested in hearing its history and what type of techniques and principles it uses.

7sm
This won't give you much info, but this guy is very credible his name is Song Pak and the website is www.kiaijitsu.com (http://www.kiaijitsu.com) or you can look up Gary Rooks he is also very good with kiai jitsu

[ppko]

kiai-jutsu (http://www.yorkkarate.com/York_Karate_Event_registration/Kai%20Jitsu%20Seminar.pdf)

Did a search for Kiai jutsu and came up with this. I've heard of healing with sound waves before. I've also seen research for using sound generating weapons for crowd control. Using these principles in a martial art is very cool.

Welcome to the board PPKO. Folks here generally try to be very accomodating to everyone else. Our pissing matches are few and far between and usually shut down quickly by the mods.
Gary Rooks used to be a member of DKI and is very good with Kiai he is now with Kyusho International

[ppko]

Hi ppko,

I'd like to know what constitutes an "attack" on kyushu jitsu? This is not meant to be antogonistic in anyway at all, but I'd like to know if this thread is open to disagreement. Is this only a thread for those people who agree with the concepts of your art?

I for one do believe in pressure points for pain application, but I have yet to see empirical studies that support the efficacy of kyushu jitsu for knockouts etc. Are you willing to discuss this, or should I keep such questioning to myslef? Out of respect, I wish to not deviate from the intent of your topic.

Thanks and welcome!
I respect your question I just do not wish to get into a discussion on whos art is better. I don't want people to dismiss what I have to say just because they don't believe in Kyusho Jitsu in my oppinion they should not be here to attack me but somewhere else so that they can write about what they know.
Yes I am willing to discuss anything pressure point related, I for one believe in the knock outs from personal experience (on the street and in the dojo). The studies that you are talking about I am not sure where to find them but I do know that they happened as I will be a part of the next study.

[Makalakumu]

ppko

How closely is kyoshu jutsu technique tied to the pressure point techniques taught by Earl Montague? He has a two volume encyclapedia on pressure points and dim-mak.

upnorthkyosa

[Kempojujutsu]

Dim-Mak & Kyusho Jitsu are the same art.

[ppko]

ppko

How closely is kyoshu jutsu technique tied to the pressure point techniques taught by Earl Montague? He has a two volume encyclapedia on pressure points and dim-mak.

upnorthkyosa
They are the exact same, I don't know for sure but I think that he only teaches a certain amount of pressure points, and we teach 360 points to attack, can someone elaborate on that that knows Mr. Montague better.

[Kempojujutsu]

I know Mr. Montaigue is a Taiji practitioner. His books cover all the same points as Dillman's.

[ppko]

Thank you like I said I don't know him but of him

[RRouuselot]

I know Mr. Montaigue is a Taiji practitioner. His books cover all the same points as Dillman's.
You might want to contact Pat McCarthy.......he knows or at least has met Earle Montaigue and might be able to help.

[RRouuselot]

After reading this thread and seeing the mpegs attached to it I have to say that its folks like that that give Kyusho a bad reputation among serious MA people.



I have seen Dillman, seen a video of him when he was first exposed to true kyusho/atemi and saw him get KOed by my teacher for the first time.....it was caught on video, know that after that he went to my teachers Seminars armed with a video camera (didn't work out at all just taped stuff), claims/claimed he can do "no touch KOs" (big joke), now we see this garbage straight out of the movie "Dune"......kiai jutsu (please ).....what's next "kill words"?

The one video where the man is claiming that he gets more Ki in his technique when he yells.......hogwash........look at it again.....by pulling his arms back (which he does) the body mechanics force a more painful position on the attacker thereby causing him to submit.



I have also had some "Dillman-nites" ( supposedly 4th dans) come to my place in Tokyo.....not very good and couldn’t make a single technique work on me or any of my students. In fact they were typical "beer gut Sensei" that talked a lot could do hardly anything.

Technique talks and BS walks........

If you are looking for true Kyusho/atemi techniques please look somewhere else besides Dillman's people/ex-students.



Folks this is just another phase in the marketing ploys thought up by those that wish to take advantage of the under exposed would be MA people.

NOTHING takes the place of hard work and diligence.

Don't be fooled by people that would have you believe this Kia Jutsu garbage is kyusho/atemi or even connected to it in anyway, shape or form.
Kyusho can be an effective supplement to Karate if done properly.......but what these people propose is a joke......plain and simple.

[ppko]

After reading this thread and seeing the mpegs attached to it I have to say that its folks like that that give Kyusho a bad reputation among serious MA people.



I have seen Dillman, seen a video of him when he was first exposed to true kyusho/atemi and saw him get KOed by my teacher for the first time.....it was caught on video, know that after that he went to my teachers Seminars armed with a video camera (didn't work out at all just taped stuff), claims/claimed he can do "no touch KOs" (big joke), now we see this garbage straight out of the movie "Dune"......kiai jutsu (please ).....what's next "kill words"?

The one video where the man is claiming that he gets more Ki in his technique when he yells.......hogwash........look at it again.....by pulling his arms back (which he does) the body mechanics force a more painful position on the attacker thereby causing him to submit.



I have also had some "Dillman-nites" ( supposedly 4th dans) come to my place in Tokyo.....not very good and couldn’t make a single technique work on me or any of my students. In fact they were typical "beer gut Sensei" that talked a lot could do hardly anything.

Technique talks and BS walks........

If you are looking for true Kyusho/atemi techniques please look somewhere else besides Dillman's people/ex-students.



Folks this is just another phase in the marketing ploys thought up by those that wish to take advantage of the under exposed would be MA people.

NOTHING takes the place of hard work and diligence.

Don't be fooled by people that would have you believe this Kia Jutsu garbage is kyusho/atemi or even connected to it in anyway, shape or form.
Kyusho can be an effective supplement to Karate if done properly.......but what these people propose is a joke......plain and simple.Now this is not a threat but if you do not believe than I invite you to my school so you can prove me and my instructor wrong.

Best Regards

[RRouuselot]

Now this is not a threat but if you do not believe than I invite you to my school so I can make you a believer

Best Regards
Well let me put it to you this way.......I have seen Dillman's technique and it didn't make me a believer and neither did some of his students.........I can't see as you would have anything new or different to show me.
But whatever.......if you think thats some sort of Kyusho go ahead.......

[RRouuselot]

I know Mr. Montaigue is a Taiji practitioner. His books cover all the same points as Dillman's.

I read an old Karate rag where Mr. Montaigue expressed his dislike for Dillman and for what he teaches..........I will try to find it.

[RRouuselot]

....... can someone elaborate on that that knows Mr. Montague better.
Can say that he knows better but at least he actually trained with the people he claims.........unlike Dillman who claims to have studied/gotten "seceret" info from Hohan Soken.......Yeah right........Hohan Soken has several senior students but the person he decides to bestow some secrets on is a foreigner he met for a couple of hours in a Hotel Lobby.........I don't think so.

[Kempojujutsu]

I read an old Karate rag where Mr. Montaigue expressed his dislike for Dillman and for what he teaches..........I will try to find it.
One of Mr Montaigue's books The Encyclopedia of Dim Mak. This is a direct quote from the book " In modern times we have seen certain people who have come across a minute part of dim mak such as the ability to cause knockout very easily by striking certain points on the body-go out and teach this openly to anyone who would pay money. We have seen thess same people giving others very high dan rankings after only a relatively short peroid of time. Worse we have heard these people saying that striking to cause KO is not dangerous and that anyone can do it!" This paragraph comes from The Montaigue Encyclopedia of Dim Mak. Preface page IX No name is mention but most can guess who he was talking about.

[ppko]

Well let me put it to you this way.......I have seen Dillman's technique and it didn't make me a believer and neither did some of his students.........I can't see as you would have anything new or different to show me.
But whatever.......if you think thats some sort of Kyusho go ahead.......If you have a video of none of this working and of your instructor KOing George than lets see it if not than stop making false claims that you are either not able or willing to prove cause until I see what you are talking about or you come down to prove me wrong, I would suggest that you stop writing lies.

PPKO

[ppko]

Can say that he knows better but at least he actually trained with the people he claims.........unlike Dillman who claims to have studied/gotten "seceret" info from Hohan Soken.......Yeah right........Hohan Soken has several senior students but the person he decides to bestow some secrets on is a foreigner he met for a couple of hours in a Hotel (http://www.adsrve.com/linkredirect.php?h=41,24944038,amazon.com,0) Lobby.........I don't think so.Ok I get it you are one of Mr Montegues students or another one of the many that learned from George and now say " No I didn't learn from George I knew this all along" well let me tell you somthing if it wasn't for GM George Dillman the Western hemisphere would never of know about pressure points, if George Dillman is a fraud than so is Wally Jay, the late Remy Presasand the hundreds of schools (http://www.adsrve.com/linkredirect.php?h=649,24944038,amazon.com,0) that we have world wide. I know that only legitimate instructors like yours (yeah right) would not have bestowed this upon anyone, because without GM George Dillman they wouldn't have known.

PPKO

[Kempojujutsu]

Actucally if Seiyu Oyata had not moved to the western hemisphere, no one would known about pressure points. Dillman just promoted to anyone he could.

Just to set the story straight, I am not anti-George Dillman. But my instructor has said the same things RRouuselot has said. I do not know RRouselot, only from MT. But the funny thing they both had the same instructor, who would happen to be Seiyu Oyata.

[Makalakumu]

I have learned Kyosho Jutsu from my instructor who learned from Mr. Darrin Coe who learned directly from Earl Montaigue. I have been taught that using these points to knock people out on a regular basis is dangerous. How does Mr. Dillman justify his usage? I mean no disrespect. I am looking for another opinion. That is all.

[Cruentus]

Ok I get it you are one of Mr Montegues students or another one of the many that learned from George and now say " No I didn't learn from George I knew this all along" well let me tell you somthing if it wasn't for GM George Dillman the Western hemisphere would never of know about pressure points, if George Dillman is a fraud than so is Wally Jay, the late Remy Presasand the hundreds of schools (http://www.adsrve.com/linkredirect.php?h=649,24944038,amazon.com,0) that we have world wide. I know that only legitimate instructors like yours (yeah right) would not have bestowed this upon anyone, because without GM George Dillman they wouldn't have known.

PPKO

A couple of things...

#1. Don't bring Wally Jay or Professor Presas into this conversation please. Just because they did "the big three" seminars together, this doesn't mean that one legitimizes the other. Also, I really hope that you are not saying that George Dillman is responsable for making Remy Presas or Wally Jay known. Both men are responsable for doing their own work, and making themselves known.

#2. RRouuslet is not a Erle Montegue guy. RRouuslet trained legitamitaly under Seiyu Oyata (please correct me if I am wrong Rob) and teaches legitamitly in Japan. Just because someone doesn't agree with your instructor, that doesn't mean that they are fraudulent, or unskilled, or whatever.

O.K.. That's it. I am staying neutral regarding Dillman out of respect for one my late instructor who traveled with him and was his friend. So don't think I am out to be a "Dillman basher"; there were just those couple of points that bothered me.

Now...where is your school located, out of curiosity? :uhyeah:

[Cruentus]

I have learned Kyosho Jutsu from my instructor who learned from Mr. Darrin Coe who learned directly from Earl Montaigue. I have been taught that using these points to knock people out on a regular basis is dangerous. How does Mr. Dillman justify his usage? I mean no disrespect. I am looking for another opinion. That is all.

Curious question...I thought that Montaigue was a Tai Chi guy who integrates pressurepoints? Who were his instructors?

[ppko]

A couple of things...

#1. Don't bring Wally Jay or Professor Presas into this conversation please. Just because they did "the big three" seminars together, this doesn't mean that one legitimizes the other. Also, I really hope that you are not saying that George Dillman is responsable for making Remy Presas or Wally Jay known. Both men are responsable for doing their own work, and making themselves known.

#2. RRouuslet is not a Erle Montegue guy. RRouuslet trained legitamitaly under Seiyu Oyata (please correct me if I am wrong Rob) and teaches legitamitly in Japan. Just because someone doesn't agree with your instructor, that doesn't mean that they are fraudulent, or unskilled, or whatever.

O.K.. That's it. I am staying neutral regarding Dillman out of respect for one my late instructor who traveled with him and was his friend. So don't think I am out to be a "Dillman basher"; there were just those couple of points that bothered me.

Now...where is your school located, out of curiosity? :uhyeah:No I meant know disrespect to either Wally Jay or Remy as they are both responsible for their own success but both Wally and Remy promoted the pressure points and respected George just as much as he respected them I have respect for all of the big three my point was that these great martial artist would not have traveled with someone that teaches crap

about Rob I have know idea of his background but he is the one that disrespected me I am not out here to say that my art is better than yours or anyone elses I posted this thread for people that were interested in learning more about Kyusho not for people to down George
PPKO

[Cruentus]

No I meant know disrespect to either Wally Jay or Remy as they are both responsible for their own success but both Wally and Remy promoted the pressure points and respected George just as much as he respected them I have respect for all of the big three my point was that these great martial artist would not have traveled with someone that teaches crap

about Rob I have know idea of his background but he is the one that disrespected me I am not out here to say that my art is better than yours or anyone elses I posted this thread for people that were interested in learning more about Kyusho not for people to down George
PPKO

fair enough.

[Cruentus]

Oh...but seriously....where is your school located?

:asian:

[ppko]

Indiana, I had a chance to meet Ken Smith I think that is his name (Remy used to call him little Remy) over this last weekend a very nice guy very knowledgeable
PPKO

[arnisador]

Good you tell us more about Grandmaster Frazer?

For more on this subject try Search. For example, see:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5423
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=434

[ppko]

Good you tell us more about Grandmaster Frazer?

For more on this subject try Search. For example, see:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5423
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=434
Before I do are you pro Dillman or not, I just don't want this thread to end up like the last two you showed up above. Grandmaster T.A. Frazer is one of Grandmaster George Dillmans top three, head of Jodoryu Jujitsu ( combining disharmoc emotion theory with pressure points), one of Song Paks top Kiai Jitsu students, studied with Wally Jay, Leo Fong, and some with the late Remy Presas. T.A. Frazer was one of the top police officers in Indiana at one time, before he quit the force to teach the Martial Arts full time. His Jodoryu system is still in its preme stage but we are already international.

[Cryozombie]

Indiana, I had a chance to meet Ken Smith I think that is his name (Remy used to call him little Remy) over this last weekend a very nice guy very knowledgeable
PPKO

PPKO, what part of Indiana are you located in...?

[ppko]

PPKO, what part of Indiana are you located in...?Southeastern

[tshadowchaser]

I must say a few things at this point.

1. as to the statements: “ Actually if Seiyu Oyata had not moved to the western hemisphere, no one would known about pressure points.” and “well let me tell you something if it wasn't for GM George Dillman the Western hemisphere would never of know about pressure points,” is way out of line. There are others who have taught the use of pressure point attacks in their systems. They may not have taught 360 + or – point but they emprise the use of pressure points to disable their opponents.
2. RRouuslet and I may not always agree but he was trained by Seiyu Oyata and from everything I have ever heard he knows his stuff.
3. the answer “Before I do are you pro Dillman or not” is not really a good way to make any friends. A simple question was asked. Simple courtesy could have been observed in answering it. Perhaps the person simply wanted more information o as to put much of this thread in some kind of perspective.
4. I knew Mr. Dillman back in the early 70’s before he started all the pressure point stuff. He was a good Karate person back then and I have no reason to believe he became less of one for learning and practicing new material to improve on what he had. I do have a problem with anyone who openly teaches anyone off the street the use of pressure point attacks without knowing how responsible that person is. I do have a hang up with “no touch knockouts” but that is my hang up. When it is demonstrated on me I will reconsider my point of view.
5. I do not know of Song Pak(s) or his history, could you please tell me of this person and his background.

[RHD]

Ok I get it you are one of Mr Montegues students or another one of the many that learned from George and now say " No I didn't learn from George I knew this all along" well let me tell you somthing if it wasn't for GM George Dillman the Western hemisphere would never of know about pressure points...PPKO

I have to disagree with this statement. This is a very karate-centric claim. There are other systems out there that use pressure points and have taught them in the Western world. Southern Preying Mantis style and Yau Kung Mun for example. Sometimes the Okinawan/RyuKyu crowd forgets that they aren't the only ones who have knowledge of these methods.

However, I must chime in on behalf of the Dillman crowd. I have had the pleasure of meeting Mr. Dillman's friend, student, and co-author Mr. Chris Thomas. Having worked with him, he helped to illuminate many things for me which I was able to apply to my own system (Hung Gar Kung Fu) and in turn, gain a much better understanding of it. It's good, effective material...Just a matter of understanding the how's and why's, and then being able to apply them when it matters.

Mike

[ppko]

I must say a few things at this point.

1. as to the statements: “ Actually if Seiyu Oyata had not moved to the western hemisphere, no one would known about pressure points.” and “well let me tell you something if it wasn't for GM George Dillman the Western hemisphere would never of know about pressure points,” is way out of line. There are others who have taught the use of pressure point attacks in their systems. They may not have taught 360 + or – point but they emprise the use of pressure points to disable their opponents.
2. RRouuslet and I may not always agree but he was trained by Seiyu Oyata and from everything I have ever heard he knows his stuff.
3. the answer “Before I do are you pro Dillman or not” is not really a good way to make any friends. A simple question was asked. Simple courtesy could have been observed in answering it. Perhaps the person simply wanted more information o as to put much of this thread in some kind of perspective.
4. I knew Mr. Dillman back in the early 70’s before he started all the pressure point stuff. He was a good Karate person back then and I have no reason to believe he became less of one for learning and practicing new material to improve on what he had. I do have a problem with anyone who openly teaches anyone off the street the use of pressure point attacks without knowing how responsible that person is. I do have a hang up with “no touch knockouts” but that is my hang up. When it is demonstrated on me I will reconsider my point of view.
5. I do not know of Song Pak(s) or his history, could you please tell me of this person and his background.1. GM Dillman is the one that first openly taught pressure points in the western hemisphere, and if it wasn't for him than there wouldn't be the knowledge of pressure points that there is.
3. After the threads that he had posted under what he wrote I am forced to be a little defensive.
5. Song Pak is a Kiai Jitsu man he grew up in the USSR he has studied in oriental medicines for a number of years for more info. www.kiaijitsu.com (http://www.kiaijitsu.com)

PPKO

[Cryozombie]

Southeastern

Thats too bad, If you were closer to the chicago side Id come check you out!

My instructor has been to some of Mr Dillman's seminars, and I would love to see some Pressure point fighting...

Oh well.

[ppko]

Thats too bad, If you were closer to the chicago side Id come check you out!

My instructor has been to some of Mr Dillman's seminars, and I would love to see some Pressure point fighting...

Oh well.Go to Dusty Seale he is in the Chicago Area and a very good martial artist he is in DKI go to www.dillman.com (http://www.dillman.com) and look under schools

PPKO

[tshadowchaser]

Thanks for the link

[ppko]

Thanks for the linkNo problem are you anywhere near Cambridge, if so do you know Tony Annesi

PPKO
P.S. when you go to www.kiaijitsu.com (http://www.kiaijitsu.com) click on news

[Cruentus]

Indiana, I had a chance to meet Ken Smith I think that is his name (Remy used to call him little Remy) over this last weekend a very nice guy very knowledgeable
PPKO

Thanks! Yup, I know Ken Smith well; he has been at Modern Arnis for some time now. Glad you had a chance to meet him.

:asian:

[ppko]

Thanks! Yup, I know Ken Smith well; he has been at Modern Arnis for some time now. Glad you had a chance to meet him.

:asian:How long have you been in Modern Arnis

PPKO

[Cruentus]

Are you in the same organization as Ken or in a different one

PPKO

Different one, but I am one of Master Kens contemporaries, as we both trained with Professor around the same time period (although I was much younger). We have different outlooks on the art, but that is the beauty of Modern Arnis; there are many paths to the same end. As the Professor used to say, "It is all da same!"

:asian:

[Cruentus]

How long have you been in Modern Arnis

PPKO

Heh. I most of caught your post before an edit, it looks like? :uhyeah:

Anyways, I have been in martial arts for 19 years, and Modern Arnis specifically for 14. I started in 1990.
:)

[ppko]

Different one, but I am one of Master Kens contemporaries, as we both trained with Professor around the same time period (although I was much younger). We have different outlooks on the art, but that is the beauty of Modern Arnis; there are many paths to the same end. As the Professor used to say, "It is all da same!"

:asian:Great if you don't mind which organization are you in and do you still get along with the other groups, or stay in contact.

PPKO

[tshadowchaser]

are you anywhere near Cambridge, if so do you know Tony Annesi

I am about 60 miles west of Cambidge. No I have never met Mr. Annesi, but if you give me some information on him, ill be glad to make an attempt at meeting him.
You can put the info here or PM me with it.

[tshadowchaser]

I suggest we open a new thread dedicated to pressure points and there application. I'll open it and then see where it goes. All with knowledge of pressure points are welcome to add information.

[arnisador]

Before I do are you pro Dillman or not, I just don't want this thread to end up like the last two you showed up above. Grandmaster T.A. Frazer is one of Grandmaster George Dillmans top three
I'm in Indiana. I've been to several of Mr. Dillman's seminars at Mr. Higginbotham's place in Indianapolis. I believe I have may have met Mr. Frazer, but can't find a picture to be sure.

[Cruentus]

Great if you don't mind which organization are you in and do you still get along with the other groups, or stay in contact.

PPKO

Formally, the larger organization I am with is the WMAA. I am also part of a small independent group out in Flint, MI. (FMAC). I head my own little satalite group which I just gave it's new name "Tulisan Eskrima Group."

Get along? I get along with who ever wants to get along with me. I am very opinionated, yet open-minded at the same time. Right after Professors passing there was a lot of in-fighting that I was a part of. I just chose to not worry so much about that stuff now.

In regards to training, there are only so many venues with which one can financially support. Naturally, I am going to support the venues that I feel will most benefit me and the art. That being said, I have not trained with either IMAF organizations formally at a camp or event since Professor passed away. I have visited them though, and I would have no problems being on the floor with them training, or anyone else for that matter. I just haven't had the means/mindset to shell out money to do so, is all.

[RRouuselot]

If you have a video of none of this working and of your instructor KOing George than lets see it if not than stop making false claims that you are either not able or willing to prove cause until I see what you are talking about or you come down to prove me wrong, I would suggest that you stop writing lies.

PPKO
False claims???
Do I need to have it on video for it ot be false? I guess I need to video tape every second of my life to prove I exist.....
Unlike Dillamn I don't carry my video camera to training.......however, the incident in question of him being KOed is on film and happend at a Birthday seminar. Not my film but I have seen it.
You may want to read an article that was in a magazine called 1984 Official Karate, possibly June edition.
Dillman says about an Oyata Kyusho-tuite seminar he attended "It's like nothing I have ever seen before"........funny thing is Dillman claims Hohan Soken showed him Kyusho before that.



If you have a video of none of this working and of your instructor KOing George than lets see it if not than stop making false claims that you are either not able or willing to prove cause until I see what you are talking about or you come down to prove me wrong, I would suggest that you stop writing lies.

PPKO
That sounds like one of those great internet challenges to me......:boing2:

[RRouuselot]

I'm in Indiana. I've been to several of Mr. Dillman's seminars at Mr. Higginbotham's place in Indianapolis. I believe I have may have met Mr. Frazer, but can't find a picture to be sure.
One of my students has been to Mr. Higginbotham's seminar and said he is pretty good.......he also went to a Dillman seminar and said it was junk.

[arnisador]

Mr. Higginbotham (http://members.iquest.net/~wchiggin/) is one of Mr. Dillman's students, and the DKI events I am speaking of were hosted by Mr. Higginbotham. I have seen Mr. Higginbotham perform the usual DKI techniques, including pressure points, no-touch KOs, and the use of sound to amplify techniques. He was a very gracious host and put on well-run events.

[Kempojujutsu]

My friend use to be in Dillman's organization till the major split. He refer to Dillman as more of a show off. where Mr. Higginbotham and Mr. Corn knew there stuff and didn't show off like Dillman.

[RRouuselot]

Mr. Higginbotham (http://members.iquest.net/~wchiggin/) is one of Mr. Dillman's students, and the DKI events I am speaking of were hosted by Mr. Higginbotham. I have seen Mr. Higginbotham perform the usual DKI techniques, including pressure points, no-touch KOs, and the use of sound to amplify techniques. He was a very gracious host and put on well-run events.
I spoke to my friend that attended Mr. Higginbotham's seminar.......he said it was before all the "Hockus-Pockus" things like no-touch KOs and sound techniques.....all he did during the seminar was some good old fashioned tuite type techniques.....evidently Mr. Higginbotham has a background in Jujutsu as well.

On the subject of No-touch Kos....I would seriously like to have someone try one of those on me. I would give them the same nano-second of grace period before I would start knocking their teeth down their throat. It might be a neat parlor trick but a useless self-defense technique.

[Flatlander]

Let me preface by saying I no nothing about Mr. Dillman or his system.
Regarding the idea of a "no touch knock out" being a useful defensive technique or not, does it matter? Apparently it takes a lot of preparation of ki energy to get there, ergo, when you need it in a flash, the necessary prep time invalidates its "usefulness". But is that the point?
If there is a chance that this phenomenon exists, and I reiterate that I'm sure neither way, isn't the amazing part that it exists at all? (I mean, if it does.) How does this fit into our philosophy of what is real, or possible? How can we reconcile this with our training and the efficacy of the techniques or martial realities that we claim to "know"?

[RRouuselot]

Let me preface by saying I no nothing about Mr. Dillman or his system.
Regarding the idea of a "no touch knock out" being a useful defensive technique or not, does it matter? Apparently it takes a lot of preparation of ki energy to get there, ergo, when you need it in a flash, the necessary prep time invalidates its "usefulness". But is that the point?
If there is a chance that this phenomenon exists, and I reiterate that I'm sure neither way, isn't the amazing part that it exists at all? (I mean, if it does.) How does this fit into our philosophy of what is real, or possible? How can we reconcile this with our training and the efficacy of the techniques or martial realities that we claim to "know"?There is a guy that is willing to pay big bucks to anyone that can do "no-touch" Kos under controlled conditions.........so far nobody has been able to do it.
One guy named Rich Mooney claimed he could do such things but got busted as a fraud.
You would think that with Dillman's love of the spot light and money he would jump at the chance to get some quick cash.

When I lived in China I saw some pretty strange Ki demonstrations.....some were unexplainable and might have been "the real deal" where as some were just laughable they were so bad.
The no touch KOs I have seen are laughable........this Kiai jutusu ranks up there as well.

BTW, I will be in Kansas City for the Annual Oyata Summer Seminar from July 22~24........if any of you Kiai Jutsu folks want to stop by and enlighten me and possibly Mr. Oyata on how it works feel free to stop by.

[ppko]

There is a guy that is willing to pay big bucks to anyone that can do "no-touch" Kos under controlled conditions.........so far nobody has been able to do it.
One guy named Rich Mooney claimed he could do such things but got busted as a fraud.
You would think that with Dillman's love of the spot light and money he would jump at the chance to get some quick cash.

When I lived in China I saw some pretty strange Ki demonstrations.....some were unexplainable and might have been "the real deal" where as some were just laughable they were so bad.
The no touch KOs I have seen are laughable........this Kiai jutusu ranks up there as well.

BTW, I will be in Kansas City for the Annual Oyata Summer Seminar from July 22~24........if any of you Kiai Jutsu folks want to stop by and enlighten me and possibly Mr. Oyata on how it works feel free to stop by.RRouuselot,
Question have you seen the Kiai JItsu stuff, in real life. I am just wandering. Why do you keep up on the attacks against me and GM Dillman, I do not keep attacking you or your sensei. After learning who your sensei was I have all the respect in the world for him, but is it neccesary for you to keep up your charades against me and DKI. I don't know if you got your panties twisted or what but we do not make outragious claims against your organization or any other for that matter. Just because you train with who you do dosn't mean you know it all, for that matter niether do I , but isn't that why we are here to share info..

PPKO

[ppko]

I'm in Indiana. I've been to several of Mr. Dillman's seminars at Mr. Higginbotham's place in Indianapolis. I believe I have may have met Mr. Frazer, but can't find a picture to be sure.
Sorry for my last posting to you I was a little defensive. HOw long ago were was it that you were at a DKI event when you think you may have seen T.A.
http://www.angelfire.com/ga/cincinnatikarate/Photospage2.html
maybe this will spark your memory there is one pic of T.A. on this website

PPKO

[RRouuselot]

RRouuselot,

After learning who your sensei was I have all the respect in the world for him, but is it neccesary for you to keep up your charades against me and DKI.PPKOCharades??

Sorry I don’t understand what you mean.......I am merely relaying my opinon based on my encounters with DKI




I don't know if you got your panties twisted or what but we do not make outragious claims against your organization or any other for that matter. PPKONot twisted at all.

I am merely stating my opinion based on facts that have encountered after spending time with DKI people.






Just because you train with who you do dosn't mean you know it all, for that matter neither do I , but isn't that why we are here to share info..

PPKOI can’t ever remember saying I knew it all, on this thread or any other.

I am here to share info........the info I have learned about Dillman and DKI. I merely wish the members of MT to see both sides of the coin. Dillman has fabricated much of his training background to fit his needs, and he has come up with some pretty bogus claims as well.

I am sure being such a skilled martial artists as you and Dillman are you wouldn’t mind stopping by our

[Cruentus]

Robert R.,

How close to Michigan does Master Oyata get for seminars? If Kansas is the closest, then I may have to take a trip within the next couple of years, funds and life permitting. I would like to stop by myself someday to learn, or at least see (even though I am not a Karate or or Japanese MA stylist).

:asian:

[Kempojujutsu]

Oyata, has two affilated schools in Michigan, one in Lansing the other in Jenison. His web site is www.ryushu.com
Bob

[Cruentus]

To throw some gasoline on the fire...

I have an open challenge to ANYONE who does NTK to try it on me. I have had people try it, to no avail. I have also seen No-touch techniques live from Dillman and other non-Dillman people. I don't buy most of it (although some of the Russian MA stuff might be probable).

Also, many of the pressure point knock out and "Ki" manipulation techniques do not work on me at all. I realize that milage may vary on some of these, however.

There you go...have fun! :flame:

[Cruentus]

Oyata, has two affilated schools in Michigan, one in Lansing the other in Jenison. His web site is www.ryushu.com
Bob

Thanks dude! RyuKyu is Okinawan, not Japanese I see. Boy...just goes to show how much I know! I may visit one of those affiliate schools at some point. Thank you! Keep in mind, though; I am not looking for another MA it train in, as I have a full plate right now. But I always like to learn about other schools/styles, even to the extent that I'd train for a few sessions with them. At the very least, I can recommend people who are interested in that type of style to the right place.

Is it true that Oyata Sensei is currently in Missouri?

Also...isn't there another very high level sensei of a different system in Lansing as well? Sorry to ask off topic questions...

:asian:

[Cruentus]

a
Also...isn't there another very high level sensei of a different system in Lansing as well? Sorry to ask off topic questions...



Shorin Ryu, I believe?

[arnisador]

My friend use to be in Dillman's organization till the major split. He refer to Dillman as more of a show off. where Mr. Higginbotham and Mr. Corn knew there stuff and didn't show off like Dillman.
Mr. Higginbotham's site still shows him as part of DKI (and I believe he's also associated with Wally Jay's SCJJ)...can someone post more about who split from whom?

[arnisador]

Sorry for my last posting to you I was a little defensive. HOw long ago were was it that you were at a DKI event when you think you may have seen T.A.
http://www.angelfire.com/ga/cincinnatikarate/Photospage2.html
maybe this will spark your memory there is one pic of T.A. on this website
I've been to two DKI events in Indianapolis within the past 5 years, maybe 3 and 4 years ago (not sure). That does look like him in the picture but it's hard to be sure. I think I also saw Mr. Frazer at a Filipino martial arts seminar in Terre Haute nearly 5 years ago. Youngish-looking guy, big smile, outgoing?

Is he a Grandmaster of Ryukyu Kempo, then? I don't know much about the "great Split" I'm afraid.

[ppko]

I've been to two DKI events in Indianapolis within the past 5 years, maybe 3 and 4 years ago (not sure). That does look like him in the picture but it's hard to be sure. I think I also saw Mr. Frazer at a Filipino martial arts seminar in Terre Haute nearly 5 years ago. Youngish-looking guy, big smile, outgoing?

Is he a Grandmaster of Ryukyu Kempo, then? I don't know much about the "great Split" I'm afraid.
No George, Wally, and Leo have been behind him in creating Jodoryu Jujitsu so that is what he is a GM of

PPKO

[ppko]

Mr. Higginbotham's site still shows him as part of DKI (and I believe he's also associated with Wally Jay's SCJJ)...can someone post more about who split from whom?Mr. Higginbotham is still with DKI some other members formed Kyusho International headed by Evan Pantazi they split from DKI about 6 mos ago

PPKO

[arnisador]

No George, Wally, and Leo have been behind him in creating Jodoryu Jujitsu so that is what he is a GM of
Ah, I see. Looking on the web, it says that the new system is described as "Disharmonic Emotion Theory" in English. Does this mean it is based on something other than pressure points--namely, emotions?

[ppko]

Ah, I see. Looking on the web, it says that the new system is described as "Disharmonic Emotion Theory" in English. Does this mean it is based on something other than pressure points--namely, emotions?Yes, it is based on what emotions beat the other emotions

PPKO

[vincehardy3]

Is it true that Oyata Sensei is currently in Missouri?

Also...isn't there another very high level sensei of a different system in Lansing as well? Sorry to ask off topic questions...

:asian:
My name is Vince Hardy. I study a Chinese system of martial arts in Omaha, Nebraska. Sensei Oyata does reside in Missouri. I would venture to say that he is one of the top instructors in the world. The ol' man's skill is amazing. My brother studied under one of Oyata's top students back in the Philadelphia area. My instructor (Sifu Pete Starr) and Oyata are very good friends.

I can try to find out more info on Oyata if anyone would like. Have a good one.


Vince

[arnisador]

Yes, it is based on what emotions beat the other emotions
Is this related to the color theory I have heard Mr. Dillman speak of, or is it different?

[ppko]

Is this related to the color theory I have heard Mr. Dillman speak of, or is it different?different

[Kempojujutsu]

I am not sure why there was a split. I do believe it had something to do with Evan Pantazi being kick out of DKI. There were many who left DKI. The ones who did are as followed.
Evan Pantazi
Jim Corn
Mark Kline
Gary Rooks
Gary Boaz
Evin Hunt
James Greenwood
Jody Marksberry
Jay Kline

Most of the instructors in KI came from DKI. The one's listed above are exmembers from DKI, that I know.

[arnisador]

OK, thanks. I know Evan Pantazi has been getting much publicity lately in Budo Intl. magazine.

I've met a few of those people, but don't know any of them well.

[Matt]

OK, thanks. I know Evan Pantazi has been getting much publicity lately in Budo Intl. magazine.

I've met a few of those people, but don't know any of them well.


Wow! Evan Pantazi has been kicked out of DKI?

Thank Goodness! I've met him several times, been to his school, and the school where I teach has hosted him for a seminar. He is a very talented martial artist who has demonstrated some really intriguing bunkai for kata. He's also a very pleasant guy.

I was getting worried the last time I saw him however, as he seemed to be ...overly influenced by George Dillman. I'm glad his association with Dillman is no more.

He still hasn't knocked me out though, and he's had a couple tries.

Matt :uhyeah:

[arnisador]

Yes, I've never been knocked out either...I'm 'resistant', evidently.

I gathered he left voluntarily--not that he was kicked out?

[Cruentus]

Yes, I've never been knocked out either...

Me niether, not by Pressure point knockout stuff, anyways. Now...I've been knocked out in the ring before. And I am sure that if Stand there and let someone slam on my arteries in my neck for awhile, that I'll go out. But for the most part, I'm resistant too.

:asian:

[Matt Stone]

Back in 1991 or 1992 I was working with some junior students on what we term "spotting." After class it occurred to me that I'd never once in my life been knocked unconscious, and I wanted to know what it was like.

So, when Sifu wandered back into the training hall a little while later, I asked him to KO me. At first he flatly refused, not because he was afraid but because he felt it was an unnecessary risk. I pressed the issue more, and he finally, reluctantly, agreed.

Admittedly, he did it while I was standing still. He stood next to me and lightly tapped me on the opposite side of my neck... Everything went brilliantly white, and the next thing I knew I was on the floor looking at the pretty ceiling and wondering where the tank was that had recently driven through my head...

Many years later I had the chance to train with other people in other places... I have been struck "on kyusho points," and simply "hit in that big vital point named 'Matt'," and been sent very close to the brink of KO yet again...

It works at full speed, but apparently not the way DKI does it.

[Flatlander]

[QUOTE=Matt Stone]

Admittedly, he did it while I was standing still. He stood next to me and lightly tapped me on the opposite side of my neck... Everything went brilliantly white, and the next thing I knew I was on the floor looking at the pretty ceiling and wondering where the tank was that had recently driven through my head...

QUOTE]

This is fascinating. I have no exposure to this phenomenon.

So how did this work? What is the science behind it?

[Matt Stone]

Well, some smarmy little idgit decided to do the playground thing again and ding me where it really hurts... in my "reputation points."

Ow. Oh, please, stop the pain... :rolleyes:

Two things -

1) If you are going to take the time to give me "negative reputation points" and toss in a comment about being KO'd being "magic," get a grip you tool. Have the stones to say something in public that we can all discuss. Either that or shut your e-pie hole.

2) I'm not sure where I stand on the entire subject of "kyusho" in the first place. The great majority of the several hundred points that are used as striking points are superimposed on underlying anatomical structures that would lend themselves well to contributing to a number of effects when struck. I can't say that "striking GB 15, L 12 and TH 934" and other "color by numbers" pseudo-acupuncture silliness is any more effective than telling someone to strike the carotid sinus in a slightly descending angle...

What I know is that when hit in X manner, Y result occurs. If you dispute that, come see me and I'll explain myself further.

And getting KO'd hurts like hell. You get quite the dandy headache when you come 'round. I've talked to others who have been KO'd through similar and dissimilar means, and they have pretty universally complained of the same after effects...

[RRouuselot]

Well, some smarmy little idgit decided to do the playground thing again and ding me where it really hurts... in my "reputation points."

Ow. Oh, please, stop the pain... :rolleyes:

Two things -

1) If you are going to take the time to give me "negative reputation points" and toss in a comment about being KO'd being "magic," get a grip you tool. Have the stones to say something in public that we can all discuss. Either that or shut your e-pie hole.

These points caused more harm than good on e-budo at one point. Seems some folks just want to go around and jack with your rep. points but dont have the "roundies" to say anything......I have more than a good idea who banged my points down once........
Ill write more later about the kyusho stuff........

[RRouuselot]

Back in 1991 or 1992 I was working with some junior students on what we term "spotting." After class it occurred to me that I'd never once in my life been knocked unconscious, and I wanted to know what it was like.

So, when Sifu wandered back into the training hall a little while later, I asked him to KO me. At first he flatly refused, not because he was afraid but because he felt it was an unnecessary risk. I pressed the issue more, and he finally, reluctantly, agreed.

Admittedly, he did it while I was standing still. He stood next to me and lightly tapped me on the opposite side of my neck... Everything went brilliantly white, and the next thing I knew I was on the floor looking at the pretty ceiling and wondering where the tank was that had recently driven through my head...

Many years later I had the chance to train with other people in other places... I have been struck "on kyusho points," and simply "hit in that big vital point named 'Matt'," and been sent very close to the brink of KO yet again...

It works at full speed, but apparently not the way DKI does it.Matt,

With all due respect my friend you are a freak:wink1: .....in a good way that is.......I don't meet too many people that ask to be pounded on just to see what happens. I remember when you came to my dojo in Kamakura and left with a bunch of black, blue and eventually yellow marks.....you're a sick puppy:ultracool


Anyway, ......folks the "love tap" to the side of the neck that DKI and other so called Kyusho people call a "kyusho point" in fact is NOT a kyusho point at all.......and here is why. Kyusho jutsu uses areas...rather large ones I might add.
Accupuncture points are small.....the largest is about the size of a No2 pencil eraser. Not easy to hit with a fist about the size of a baseball or larger. Also, there must half a dozen Accupuncture points in the general area where one's hand strikes the neck to induce the previously mentioned KO. These accupuncture points include, but are not llimited to the following: LI 18, LI17, SI 16 & 17, SJ　１６＆17, ST 9, ....my fist is pretty average size for a western male and if I try to KO someone doing the "neck whack" I hit about 4 to 5 of the mentioned accupuncture points each time I strike.......and not always the same ones depending on my angle of attack.....the KO is ACTUALLY caused by the attackers brain slaping around in his skull just as if he was hit on the chin. However, this doesn't sound exotic or mystical as saying "well I use a combination of LI18 and ST9 to KO people"....it just does'nt pull in the potenial "customers" if you say "I gave him a good swat and his brain got bruised".
I dont ever recall my teacher calling this a Kyusho strike per say but rather an Atemi strike which is different.
It was people like Dillman that didnt stick around long enough or train hard enough to learn what was really happening and just thought it was a kyusho strike and thereby perpetuated the wrong name for that technique....once again misleading the MA population. Too bad Dillman wanted to be a "master" before ever becoming a "true" student (but that has been the way of many people in the MA) Which would explain why Dillman cant KO people that are standing stone still sometimes.....believe me nobody is imune to getting KOed if its done properly....now we have a lot of folks spreading the same BS that Dillman did.....and I see now it has gone on to "Yoda-esque" sort of nonsense with Kia Jutsu, No-touch KOs (I am begging someone to try that on me telling me its a viable self-defense technique) and what not........it gets goofier by the minute. I dont know how it can getting any dumber but I am sure it will.

[Flatlander]

I once read in a book titled "Black Medicine", that there is an artery or vein that runs up the right side of the neck wherein a very unique thing happens. When it is impacted, some type of hormone or other biological chemical is released which shuts down your brain for a second. According to the book, this is supposed to be a natural body defense against getting brain damage should the blood flow to your brain be interrupted. I guess that would make it an artery. This book was the only place that I had ever read it, and I've never tested the theory, but at any rate, this is the only "quick" knockout kind of thing that I've ever heard of. The book is at home, and I'm at work, but I'll reference that and get back tonight.

[stephen]

I once read in a book titled "Black Medicine", that there is an artery or vein that runs up the right side of the neck wherein a very unique thing happens. When it is impacted, some type of hormone or other biological chemical is released which shuts down your brain for a second. According to the book, this is supposed to be a natural body defense against getting brain damage should the blood flow to your brain be interrupted. I guess that would make it an artery. This book was the only place that I had ever read it, and I've never tested the theory, but at any rate, this is the only "quick" knockout kind of thing that I've ever heard of. The book is at home, and I'm at work, but I'll reference that and get back tonight.

You're thinking of the blood pressure receptor in the neck. I beleive it's called a baroreceptor. If stuck it beleives that the blood pressure is too high high and lowers the pressure. This causes an abnormally low blood pressure (it was never really high in the first place) which can cause unconsiousness.

At least, this is as I understand it.

Stephen Kovalcik

[Flatlander]

Thank you for the validation.:asian:

[Cruentus]

Yup...if you slam on any one of the arteries on the side of the neck, you'll knock em' out. Does doing so mean I am an effective preassure point fighter, or just an effective fighter?

heh...I have a good pressure point technique. There is a pressure point on the tip of the front teeth. If you slam them with a baseball bat, then it will cause teeth to come loose, the head to jerk back clipping the arteries that run up the back of the neck, causing unconsiousness. Pretty neat preassure point technique, huh. Now....if I could just learn to do that with an invisable bat.... :uhyeah:

[ppko]

Matt,

With all due respect my friend you are a freak:wink1: .....in a good way that is.......I don't meet too many people that ask to be pounded on just to see what happens. I remember when you came to my dojo in Kamakura and left with a bunch of black, blue and eventually yellow marks.....you're a sick puppy:ultracool


Anyway, ......folks the "love tap" to the side of the neck that DKI and other so called Kyusho people call a "kyusho point" in fact is NOT a kyusho point at all.......and here is why. Kyusho jutsu uses areas...rather large ones I might add.
Accupuncture points are small.....the largest is about the size of a No2 pencil eraser. Not easy to hit with a fist about the size of a baseball or larger. Also, there must half a dozen Accupuncture points in the general area where one's hand strikes the neck to induce the previously mentioned KO. These accupuncture points include, but are not llimited to the following: LI 18, LI17, SI 16 & 17, SJ　１６＆17, ST 9, ....my fist is pretty average size for a western male and if I try to KO someone doing the "neck whack" I hit about 4 to 5 of the mentioned accupuncture points each time I strike.......and not always the same ones depending on my angle of attack.....the KO is ACTUALLY caused by the attackers brain slaping around in his skull just as if he was hit on the chin. However, this doesn't sound exotic or mystical as saying "well I use a combination of LI18 and ST9 to KO people"....it just does'nt pull in the potenial "customers" if you say "I gave him a good swat and his brain got bruised".
I dont ever recall my teacher calling this a Kyusho strike per say but rather an Atemi strike which is different.
It was people like Dillman that didnt stick around long enough or train hard enough to learn what was really happening and just thought it was a kyusho strike and thereby perpetuated the wrong name for that technique....once again misleading the MA population. Too bad Dillman wanted to be a "master" before ever becoming a "true" student (but that has been the way of many people in the MA) Which would explain why Dillman cant KO people that are standing stone still sometimes.....believe me nobody is imune to getting KOed if its done properly....now we have a lot of folks spreading the same BS that Dillman did.....and I see now it has gone on to "Yoda-esque" sort of nonsense with Kia Jutsu, No-touch KOs (I am begging someone to try that on me telling me its a viable self-defense technique) and what not........it gets goofier by the minute. I dont know how it can getting any dumber but I am sure it will.
Rouuselot,
Evidently, you have no idea what you are talking about the area of activation for a pressure point is about the size of a quarter. It's people like you that keep the martial arts a kids art, you have done nothing but down DKI since I started this thread, and I sense some jelousy. If your art is so great than why have some other students that trained with oyata come to DKI. I have said before that I have a great deal of respect for Oyata, but just because you have no idea what you are talking about you make his whole group look bad.

PPKO

[Flatlander]

Rouuselot,
It's people like you that keep the martial arts a kids art

PPKO
That's a peculiar viewpoint. Do you percieve the martial arts this way? Do you think that the majority of people who dedicate their lives to the propagation and understanding of their arts as children?

I'm happy for you that you have found a system and instructor with which you can identify, but keep in mind that the people you are talking to here are not children, and take their arts very seriously. If you want to make claims that others will question, you need to be able to back them up with some sort of evidence. Snoop around this forum and read all the different threads, and critically think about the posts you read. Many of these people understand very well the topics that they choose to discuss, and tend not to throw out comments because they can't think of anything better to say. This should be a constructive excercise. It is a place to share ideas. Not somewhere to toss around useless or unfounded opinions.

Please note Rrousselot said "Accupuncture points are small.....the largest is about the size of a No2 pencil eraser. "

You then countered "Evidently, you have no idea what you are talking about the area of activation for a pressure point is about the size of a quarter."

Notice that you have argued about a different topic. Specifically I see Rrousselot discussing accupuncture points. You are not.

If you want me or anyone else to consider your ideas credible, I would suggest reading people's posts carefully prior to responding. It's difficult enough trying to get a point across in this medium of type and smilies.

[ppko]

That's a peculiar viewpoint. Do you percieve the martial arts this way? Do you think that the majority of people who dedicate their lives to the propagation and understanding of their arts as children?

I'm happy for you that you have found a system and instructor with which you can identify, but keep in mind that the people you are talking to here are not children, and take their arts very seriously. If you want to make claims that others will question, you need to be able to back them up with some sort of evidence. Snoop around this forum and read all the different threads, and critically think about the posts you read. Many of these people understand very well the topics that they choose to discuss, and tend not to throw out comments because they can't think of anything better to say. This should be a constructive excercise. It is a place to share ideas. Not somewhere to toss around useless or unfounded opinions.

Please note Rrousselot said "Accupuncture points are small.....the largest is about the size of a No2 pencil eraser. "

You then countered "Evidently, you have no idea what you are talking about the area of activation for a pressure point is about the size of a quarter."

Notice that you have argued about a different topic. Specifically I see Rrousselot discussing accupuncture points. You are not.

If you want me or anyone else to consider your ideas credible, I would suggest reading people's posts carefully prior to responding. It's difficult enough trying to get a point across in this medium of type and smilies.Rouuselot has done nothing but dismiss everthing I have learned, I in no way meant to disrespect everyone here but I do have a problem when I do not provoke any attacks and get attacked, I have no problem with most people in here and I realize there are a lot of knowledgable martial artist in here and respect most of you. I am sorry if I came accross in the wrong light, if you go back through this thread you would see why I am so defensive when it comes to rouuselot. Like I said before I am sorry if I offended anyone that was not meant to be offended. I believe that many of you run great schools but there are a few that give the martial arts a bad name.

PPKO

[Flatlander]

No problem pp, I am in no way offended. But I think it would be beneficial for you to put some thoughtful analysis into the posts before you question the validity of others statements. I, for one, have posted previously in this thread that I have no knowledge of the Dillman system. Therefore, I choose not to comment one way or the other, rather, I would prefer to ask questions so as to embiggen myself in a cromulent way. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif:asian:http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif

[ppko]

No problem pp, I am in no way offended. But I think it would be beneficial for you to put some thoughtful analysis into the posts before you question the validity of others statements. I, for one, have posted previously in this thread that I have no knowledge of the Dillman system. Therefore, I choose not to comment one way or the other, rather, I would prefer to ask questions so as to embiggen myself in a cromulent way. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif:asian:http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gifI don't question many peoples statements only those that I find not to be as knowledgeable as they propose they are.

Thank You
PPKO

[RRouuselot]

Rouuselot,
Evidently, you have no idea what you are talking about the area of activation for a pressure point is about the size of a quarter.
PPKO
Oh Really??



Hmmmm I seem to recall Graduating from a very well respected school of Acupuncture here in Japan in 1994…and am licensed to practice here in Japan…I also seem to remember studying for many years as a direct student from one of the foremost authorities in the field of Kyusho Jutsu and Atemi Jutsu….not to mention Okinawan Karate



You are right I am totally clueless…..please disregard anything I have said thus far….I am sure you have far superior credentials:rolleyes:

[ppko]

Oh Really??



Hmmmm I seem to recall Graduating from a very well respected school of Acupuncture here in Japan in 1994…and am licensed to practice here in Japan…I also seem to remember studying for many years as a direct student from one of the foremost authorities in the field of Kyusho Jutsu and Atemi Jutsu….not to mention Okinawan Karate



You are right I am totally clueless…..please disregard anything I have said thus far….I am sure you have far superior credentials:rolleyes: I do not bash your teacher and I just ask that you don't bash mine you are the one that has started this whole charade and I would just like to leave it where it is. I am man enough to not talk about your teacher, or you anymore if you are man enough to do the same.

PPKO

[RRouuselot]

I do not bash your teacher and I just ask that you don't bash mine you are the one that has started this whole charade and I would just like to leave it where it is. I am man enough to not talk about your teacher, or you anymore if you are man enough to do the same.

PPKO
And what point would you "bash" him on????
Training hard? Walking it like he talks it? Having a pretty good skill level?
Being a leader in his community? Contributing about $10,000+ a year to various charities annually?


Persoanlly I think your teacher is a braggart, a Con-Man, dishonest and basically lacks integrity. The ideas/concepts he tries to propagate are often silly not to mention useless.

[ppko]

And what point would you "bash" him on????
Training hard? Walking it like he talks it? Having a pretty good skill level?
Being a leader in his community? Contributing about $10,000+ a year to various charities annually?


Persoanlly I think your teacher is a braggart, a Con-Man, dishonest and basically lacks integrity. The ideas/concepts he tries to propagate are often silly not to mention useless.This comes from complete ignorance, you obviously have no clue of what you are saying, and like I said before I am man enough not to bash your sensie, could I ,yes, will I, no. I am not going to get into a p*ssing battle with you over how good your teacher is, or mine I realize that talking to you is like talking to someone that has never been in Martial Arts before and has no desire to truly learn real Martial Arts so I consider you a waste of time and I can only hope that everyone else can see that also. If anyone has any questions on pressure point fighting you can still ask me and I will give you a real answer.

PPKO

[Flatlander]

:-popcorn:


:argue:

[ppko]

:-popcorn:


:argue:LOL couldn't have said it better

PPKO

[RRouuselot]

This comes from complete ignorance, you obviously have no clue of what you are saying, and like I said before I am man enough not to bash your sensie, could I ,yes, will I, no. I am not going to get into a p*ssing battle with you over how good your teacher is, or mine I realize that talking to you is like talking to someone that has never been in Martial Arts before and has no desire to truly learn real Martial Arts so I consider you a waste of time and I can only hope that everyone else can see that also. If anyone has any questions on pressure point fighting you can still ask me and I will give you a real answer.



PPKO







Is that so? I base my statements and opinions on actual facts.



I have followed the antics of George Dillman since 1984.

Thus far he has been misleading about his training.

Example: He claims to have gotten “Secret Scrolls” from Hohan Soken……..afraid not. Those scrolls are about as secret in MA circles as Time Magazine is in a Dentists office.

2) He never had extensive training with Hohan either.

3) He claims to have only been inspired by Mr. Oyata as far as Kyusho/tuite etc and says he learned it previously from others….when in actual fact his quote in 1984 Official Karate said it all…….Dillman says of the Kyusho/Tuite seminar Mr. Oyata held…..”it’s like nothing I have ever seen before”



No less than 4 people from the Dillman/Moneymaker ilk have stopped by my dojo…….all were handed their butts. Their techniques were ineffective, their concepts were silly, one 4th dan couldn’t last 1 round with one of my yellow belts. This 4th dan actually worked with one of my students and was asked on more than a few occasions to come and train again………..all were refused. Guess he wanted to tell everyone he was a 4th dan but didn’t want to actually have any skill to go with it…..

All in all my first hand experience with the Dillman ilk has been less than educational.





Thus far I have found your rebuttals to my comments on my actually first hand experience to be lacking in any real content. I have given you firsthand accounts of seeing Dillman people and having them in my dojo and all you can say is I don’t know what I am talking about, and have “never been in Martial Arts before”…&…. “no desire to truly learn real Martial Arts” …..based on the fact that you know nothing about my training experience I find that comment funny.

Especially since I have trained in Okinawan Karate for over 25+ years from someone who his kind of respected, taught at the Nippon Budokan, Kamakura Budokan, taught scores of Law Enforcement people as well as Military, and have trained in Katori Shinto Ryu from another respected MA, as well as trained in Judo from an Olympic Medalist, and also work out with a K-1 fighter (just for fun)……Have qualifications to actually practice Accupuncture as well ……I think the only logical reply to your statements would be “yeah right”
My knowledge of MA/Kyusho/Accupuncture pail in comparrison.......

As I said before........the Oyata Summer Seminar is coming up in July......feel free to drop by and enlighten any one with your "KiaJutsu" and whatever else you care to part with. I for one am always looking for some new and interesting technique that actually works......

[RRouuselot]

:-partyon: :-partyon:

[arnisador]

My mother had great kiai-jutsu technique...when she started yelling at me, I was struck still and couldn't say or do anything to defend myself!

[RRouuselot]

My mother had great kiai-jutsu technique...when she started yelling at me, I was struck still and couldn't say or do anything to defend myself!

Mine did too.......she said "wait until your father gets home"......I would be frozen like a bunny caught in the headlights....

[arnisador]

Sounds like they studied under the same teacher!

[RRouuselot]

Sounds like they studied under the same teacher!
Could be........my mother was a trained "smack-fu":)

[Matt Stone]

I wanna get some before this thread gets locked... %-}

PPKO (Pressure Point Knock Out?) -

A few questions for you -

1) How old are you?

2) How long have you been training, consistently, in the techniques you now espouse?

3) Have you ever actually squared off at arm's reach (no farther) and had your training partner try to take your head off, and in so doing defended yourself successfully with either your alleged "kyushojutsu" or "kiaijutsu?"

4) If you answered "yes" to #3, can we get a copy of the video tape to prove this fact?

What's my point... Anybody?

PPKO cited Robert as being the kind of person that gives MA a bad name. I'd submit that it is not down to earth, "show me or blow me" attitudes that gives MA a bad name, but rather unethical hucksters who falsify their training backgrounds, promote themselves to ridiculous ranks in arts they never studied, and who lay claim to mysterious Jedi powers that undermine our collective credibility.

I have trained with Robert. This is no secret to anyone who has frequented MT for over a year. I am in his camp, in his corner, and will back whatever he says, however he chooses to say it. Why? Because the SOB has knocked me flat on my rather large backside on more than one occasion, and while I am nowhere near well skilled enough to consider myself an expert at anything, I'm no scruff either. When I try to take his head off, at arm's length, with random techniques, and at full tilt boogie Robert sends me headlong into the deck unable to think or breathe thanks to the pain he just inflicted, I count that as proof he knows his sh|t.

PPKO, you ain't earned that yet.

It is not conjecture, not fantasy, not fiction, that Georgie trained under Mr. Oyata for a brief period via seminar. Robert was there. My teacher (who was friends with Mr. Oyata once upon a time) was there as well. There are articles with George being slapped around like the new ***** in prison if you look far enough back in the archives. But I'm sure Mr. D. doesn't go out of his way to publish that kind of info - it takes away from his Jedi Master image.

It seems to me, with the benefit of around 4 or 5 years on different web boards now (maybe longer, I don't remember), and 18 years (God, am I that old???) of training, I notice that DKI folks tend to fall back into the same position when questioned about their training every single time... "You should stop criticizing my teacher. You are a bad person. You give MA a bad name." I remember DKIGirl, a former MT member, reciting the same litany when Robert called her videos into question (as well as her ability to use what she was teaching; she said that if George could do it, she could to - poor logic the likes of which I have yet to see since).

Instead of retreating immediately into a defensive position, PPKO, I'd suggest that you spend more time trying to qualify your statements rather than attack your detractors. It'd go a long way toward increasing my respect for you (at least).

But I don't know what I'm talking about, right?

Let's see what happens next. I'd really like to discuss "kyusho" and vital point striking, but not if it means I can't ask questions and I have to kowtow to someone's image and cult of personality...

%-}

Enjoy.

:asian:

[Bod]

RRouuselot says
.....the KO is ACTUALLY caused by the attackers brain slaping around in his skull just as if he was hit on the chin
I'm not sure what you are saying here. Are you saying that all supposed ST9 knockouts are in essence the same as a jab on the chin knockout, or just that a practical knockout by a strike to the side of the neck is the same?

The reason that I ask is that I do a bit of judo, and the strangles are generally done best with knuckles in the side of the neck. Sometimes you get plenty of warning, you feel the blood pressure rise in your head and your vision going, and you tap. Every now and then though it goes so quickly you hardly have time to tap, you don't actually feel any pressure (though I did once hear a very loud electric buzzing), and stories abound of half second knockouts.

Now I was led to believe that this is the action of the pressure receptor in the carotid synapse, sending the blood pressure plummeting. It can't be oxygen starvation, as this would take about 10 seconds with a solid choke, maybe shorter if uke is fatigued.

Now the quick knockouts are definitely not the brain slapping around and don't appear to be simply the loss of blood supply to the brain. I wouldn't be surprised if they could be replicated by a tap to the side of the neck, though, with the difficulty of getting a blood choke on a pinned Uke let alone a 'half second choke' I know I'll be practising the brachial stun for the time being.

[RRouuselot]

I'm not sure what you are saying here. Are you saying that all supposed ST9 knockouts are in essence the same as a jab on the chin knockout, or just that a practical knockout by a strike to the side of the neck is the same?
What I was alluding to is that there are so many points, be they kyusho related or Accupuncture, that given the size of an average man’s fist and the lack of accuracy of most humans doing an action at full speed it is not any specific "point" that does the actually knock outs as perpetuated by Dillman and other people. Rather it is the shock or strike that induces the KO.




Now I was led to believe that this is the action of the pressure receptor in the carotid synapse, sending the blood pressure plummeting. It can't be oxygen starvation, as this would take about 10 seconds with a solid choke, maybe shorter if uke is fatigued.
Only if that specific area is struck which in some cases it is not.

[RRouuselot]

............. If anyone has any questions on pressure point fighting you can still ask me and I will give you a real answer.

PPKOOk.....I have some questions...........

1) Why have I yet to see Dillman (live or on mpeg) do any technique on someone actually attacking with any type of realism? All I have ever seen (live and on mpeg/video) is him whacking someone standing pretty much "lamp post" still. I watched most of the mpegs found here: http://www.dillman.com/videos.asp but couldn't seen any where someone is attacked in any realistic form. Most of the so called "attackers" are just standing waiting to get hit. By the way, mpeg # 17 is a hoot! Yeah people always attack me in that way!

2) On Dillman's website it says: "Dillman has rediscovered a formerly secret level of meaning for kata movements"

He did? What did he rediscover? If he is reffering to Kyusho/Tuite/Atemi/or bunkai I seem to remember several other men from Okinawa introducing such concepts waaaaaaaaay before Dillman.

3) On Dillman's website it says: "Dillman began serious martial arts training in 1961 with Harry G. Smith. He went on to study with Daniel K. Pai, Robert Trias and Seiyu Oyata. "

Which one showed him what tuite/kyusho or bunkai was?
Mr. Pai? Nope
Mr. Smith? Doubtful
Mr. Trias? The man that claimed to have studied from Choki Motobu in Japan but unforntunately Motobu had already been dead for several years before Trias stepped foot on Japanese soil.........

4) On Dillman's website it says: "He has studied under five 10th degree black belts from Okinawa"

Who, when, where and for how long and what does he claim to have learned from them? A couple of hours here and there while on vacation in Okinawa maybe? To be honest when Dillman came to my teacher's seminars I can testify he never trained........only video taped.

The reason why I am asking such questions is I am trying to understand how qualified you are to speak on the subject of Kyusho/Pressure Points based on Dillman's qualifications (or lack of). Since I am pretty much know Mr. Dillman’s skill level I am wondering if you have studied from some other person with greater skill than Dillman.

I am guessing you are not claiming superior skill over your teacher Mr. Dillman.......is that correct?

[ppko]

I wanna get some before this thread gets locked... %-}

PPKO (Pressure Point Knock Out?) -

A few questions for you -

1) How old are you?

2) How long have you been training, consistently, in the techniques you now espouse?

3) Have you ever actually squared off at arm's reach (no farther) and had your training partner try to take your head off, and in so doing defended yourself successfully with either your alleged "kyushojutsu" or "kiaijutsu?"

4) If you answered "yes" to #3, can we get a copy of the video tape to prove this fact?

What's my point... Anybody?

PPKO cited Robert as being the kind of person that gives MA a bad name. I'd submit that it is not down to earth, "show me or blow me" attitudes that gives MA a bad name, but rather unethical hucksters who falsify their training backgrounds, promote themselves to ridiculous ranks in arts they never studied, and who lay claim to mysterious Jedi powers that undermine our collective credibility.

I have trained with Robert. This is no secret to anyone who has frequented MT for over a year. I am in his camp, in his corner, and will back whatever he says, however he chooses to say it. Why? Because the SOB has knocked me flat on my rather large backside on more than one occasion, and while I am nowhere near well skilled enough to consider myself an expert at anything, I'm no scruff either. When I try to take his head off, at arm's length, with random techniques, and at full tilt boogie Robert sends me headlong into the deck unable to think or breathe thanks to the pain he just inflicted, I count that as proof he knows his sh|t.

PPKO, you ain't earned that yet.

It is not conjecture, not fantasy, not fiction, that Georgie trained under Mr. Oyata for a brief period via seminar. Robert was there. My teacher (who was friends with Mr. Oyata once upon a time) was there as well. There are articles with George being slapped around like the new ***** in prison if you look far enough back in the archives. But I'm sure Mr. D. doesn't go out of his way to publish that kind of info - it takes away from his Jedi Master image.

It seems to me, with the benefit of around 4 or 5 years on different web boards now (maybe longer, I don't remember), and 18 years (God, am I that old???) of training, I notice that DKI folks tend to fall back into the same position when questioned about their training every single time... "You should stop criticizing my teacher. You are a bad person. You give MA a bad name." I remember DKIGirl, a former MT member, reciting the same litany when Robert called her videos into question (as well as her ability to use what she was teaching; she said that if George could do it, she could to - poor logic the likes of which I have yet to see since).

Instead of retreating immediately into a defensive position, PPKO, I'd suggest that you spend more time trying to qualify your statements rather than attack your detractors. It'd go a long way toward increasing my respect for you (at least).

But I don't know what I'm talking about, right?

Let's see what happens next. I'd really like to discuss "kyusho" and vital point striking, but not if it means I can't ask questions and I have to kowtow to someone's image and cult of personality...

%-}

Enjoy.

:asian:First thing yes I have used Kyusho on the streets several times and it has never not worked, but like your hero said I don't carry around a camera all the time. In the line of work that I was in you got plenty of real time practice ( law enforcement ) we have lots of people that have at one time or are now in law enforcement, and we have a few of Oyatas old students. How can you tell me that I don't have enough real experience when you no nothing about me. People come to our seminars because they have instructors that either don't know, or know what they are talking about but choose not to show anyone. Do I have as much MA experience as Rob, NO, do I have enough real life experience,Yes. I can tell when someone is full of crap and has to get defensive when someone from DKI gets in here, because he is afraid that people will realize that he isn't the only one that knows true Kyusho Jitsu. Let me leave you with a quote "when you know you know you don't know, when you don't know you know then you know", which side of that are you on. I have used my techniques without thinking have you.

PPKO

[RRouuselot]

.......Yes. I can tell when someone is full of crap and has to get defensive when someone from DKI gets in here, because he is afraid that people will realize that he isn't the only one that knows true Kyusho Jitsu (if he does).
PPKODefensive.....I think not.

I merely wish folks not to be fooled into thinking the "Yoda-esque" crap that your propagate where the attacker just stands and waits to be smacked is real kyusho.

Just wondering if you are going to answer my questions above.....or will they be pushed aside like so many other questions posed to DKI members about Dillamn and his training/knowledge.

You keep mentioning former Oyata students........I can’t remember any serious students ever going over to Dillman’s camp........especially since I know all of the serious ones. However, I have noticed an extremely familiar tag put on more than a few people "ex-DKI member" seems to pop up a lot. If Dillman is such a hot shot then why is it people seem to leave his DKI in droves.....granted every organization has its drop outs but you would think if the instruction and material were that great more people would stay.

[KenpoTess]

Mod. Note.

Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

~Tess
-MT S. Moderator-

[RRouuselot]

How can you tell me that I don't have enough real experience when you no nothing about me. PPKOI think he actually asked you to explain your training history....






A few questions for you -

1) How old are you?

2) How long have you been training, consistently, in the techniques you now espouse?

3) Have you ever actually squared off at arm's reach (no farther) and had your training partner try to take your head off, and in so doing defended yourself successfully with either your alleged "kyushojutsu" or "kiaijutsu?"
These questions were not answered by you.






........ because he is afraid that people will realize that he isn't the only one that knows true Kyusho Jitsu. PPKOThere are many skilled people doing kyusho........not just in the organization I belong to.

Having lived in China I had the opportunity to see many skilled people doing kyusho.

Let me ask you this.........what is the difference between kyusho and atemi?

[ppko]

Defensive.....I think not.

I merely wish folks not to be fooled into thinking the "Yoda-esque" crap that your propagate where the attacker just stands and waits to be smacked is real kyusho.

Just wondering if you are going to answer my questions above.....or will they be pushed aside like so many other questions posed to DKI members about Dillamn and his training/knowledge.

You keep mentioning former Oyata students........I can’t remember any serious students ever going over to Dillman’s camp........especially since I know all of the serious ones. However, I have noticed an extremely familiar tag put on more than a few people "ex-DKI member" seems to pop up a lot. If Dillman is such a hot shot then why is it people seem to leave his DKI in droves.....granted every organization has its drop outs but you would think if the instruction and material were that great more people would stay.About Dillmans knowledge all I know is what I am told I was not around when GM Dillman first started training in the Martial Arts, but there are lots of articles and magazines to back up what he has said. He has done some great things for the Martial Arts and and has had some great teachers, he never claimed to learn all his pressure point knowledge from Mr. Soken, but from many people. In my oppinion he has proven his method, and has proven it all over the world, we continually test in Medical Centers, and take in new people all the time from all sorts of different backgrounds. We have people from all over the world in DKI (china, france, UK, ecuador, netherlands, canada......).Don't you think that some of these people would have proven us wrong by now. I cannot speak for those that left DKI ( by the way there hasn't been that many people leve DKI). We show techniques at a stand still so people can learn them.

PPKO

[RRouuselot]

About Dillmans knowledge all I know is what I am told I was not around when GM Dillman first started training in the Martial Arts, but there are lots of articles and magazines to back up what he has said. He has done some great things for the Martial Arts and and has had some great teachers, he never claimed to learn all his pressure point knowledge from Mr. Soken, but from many people. In my oppinion he has proven his method, and has proven it all over the world, we continually test in Medical Centers, and take in new people all the time from all sorts of different backgrounds. We have people from all over the world in DKI (china, france, UK, ecuador, netherlands, canada......).Don't you think that some of these people would have proven us wrong by now. I cannot speak for those that left DKI ( by the way there hasn't been that many people leve DKI). We show techniques at a stand still so people can learn them.

PPKOAs for magazines......well some are good and some not.....Black Belt Magazine.....NOT.

I know for a fact that he learned no Kyusho from Soken. My good friend Patrick McCarthy was present at the time Dillman met Soken.


Does Dillman speak Portugese or Okinawan.......because Soken only speaks those 2 languages.....I am wondering how any meaningful transmission of information as complex as kyusho could have taken place between the two of them.....

Mr. Soken came to the US for a tournament McCarthy, Dillman and several others were at and gave a demonstration, took some photos with some people and then had to return to Okinawa suddenly for what I think was a medical emergency of some kind. No secret scrolls, no private one on one training.............

[ppko]

I think he actually asked you to explain your training history....




These questions were not answered by you.



There are many skilled people doing kyusho........not just in the organization I belong to.

Having lived in China I had the opportunity to see many skilled people doing kyusho.

Let me ask you this.........what is the difference between kyusho and atemi?Atemi- my understanding of Atemi is the focus on 365 points located on the central nervous system one touch one kill method.
Kyusho- my understanding of kyusho jitsu is one second fighting we don't practice to kill but rather knock out our opponent

[RRouuselot]

Atemi- my understanding of Atemi is the focus on 365 points located on the central nervous system one touch one kill method.
Kyusho- my understanding of kyusho jitsu is one second fighting we don't practice to kill but rather knock out our opponent
You have it exactly the opposite. Which is which is why I was saying that your people were not doing Kyusho on the mpeg etc.....


I rest my case.

[ppko]

As for magazines......well some are good and some not.....Black Belt Magazine.....NOT.

I know for a fact that he learned no Kyusho from Soken. My good friend Patrick McCarthy was present at the time Dillman met Soken.


Does Dillman speak Portugese or Okinawan.......because Soken only speaks those 2 languages.....I am wondering how any meaningful transmission of information as complex as kyusho could have taken place between the two of them.....

Mr. Soken came to the US for a tournament McCarthy, Dillman and several others were at and gave a demonstration, took some photos with some people and then had to return to Okinawa suddenly for what I think was a medical emergency of some kind. No secret scrolls, no private one on one training.............I don't know this for a fact and unless you were there than niether do you, there are a lot of people that do not like Mr. Dillman, and therefor might make-up stories to make them look better.

PPKO

[RRouuselot]

I don't know this for a fact and unless you were there than niether do you, there are a lot of people that do not like Mr. Dillman, and therefor might make-up stories to make them look better.

PPKO
Well, I have no reason to think my good friend would lie to me about something like that...........I usually am not that suspicious of what my friends tell me.

[RRouuselot]

About Dillmans knowledge all I know is what I am told I was not around when GM Dillman first started training in the Martial Arts, but there are lots of articles and magazines to back up what he has said. PPKOTo quote you from another post regarding the above statement..........

I don't know this for a fact and unless you were there than niether do you
........but you dont seem to question it.



He has done some great things for the Martial Arts PPKOI will give him "props" for one thing.......he is a Master at promoting.

[Cruentus]

Robert,

Sorry to interrupt...

I have a technical question.

So Atemi is the practice of knocking out your opponent through pressure points, and Kyusho is "1 touch 1 kill" through pressure points? Is this correct?

If so, how do you road test Kyusho (assuming that going around and killing isn't an option)? I mean...how does it "work" period? If your not comfortable answering that one publically, please PM me. Also, what's the language translation of each, as I know that your well versed in language.

Thanks!
:asian:

[terryl965]

Very interesting I to would like to know more about one touch one kill(kyusho)Pm me too like tulisan, this Intriques me, I do not know why, any info. that you have please fprward to me Thanks..... God Bless America

[RHD]

Very interesting I to would like to know more about one touch one kill(kyusho)Pm me too like tulisan, this Intriques me, I do not know why, any info. that you have please fprward to me Thanks..... God Bless America

How do you road test kyusho? Well, you don't. Ha ha...but you can look at certain similar events.

For example there was a publicized case in our local media a few years back. In a nearby town a bar owner was killed in an altercation. This person was a middle aged man, not in the best of shape, but large. He chose to eject a young fellow from his bar and the young man assumed a "fighting stance", then struck the bar owner in the chest. The man died shortly after because the strike induced a lethal heart arryhthmia. Of course no one will know for sure, but the strike was to the chest according to all witness accounts, and I believe that the young man inadvertantly hit the bar owner in a vital point. Does this mean that kyusho is valid? No. However, it does raise concerns as to the ramifications of striking somone in the chest...where several vital points that supposedly affect the heart are easily accessed. There are from time to time, other examples of similar situations in the media.

Now I am not neither defending Kyusho or Mr. Dillman, nor promoting them. If nothing else, kyusho contitutes good targeting. I personally feel it's not safe to experiment with such things "all out". However, I agree with whoever pointed out that you never see demo's of kyusho with a resisting partner. Put on some body armor, and show it in action! Otherwise practicing against a static, non resisting uke will severly limit one's ability to apply and give little credibilty to thier art. :)

Mike

[Flatlander]

I also have a question here: If kyosho training is specifically geared toward "one touch" defense, what happens if it doesn't work? Where does this leave the student who hasn't mastered the art, in terms of defensive capabilities? Are there other techniques incorporated into the repertoire such as blocking, kicking, locking, trapping, etc.? Or should this system be learned as an add on to other arts? Please excuse me, but I'm quite ignorant on this topic. I'd really like to direct the question to Rrousselot, or anyone else here who has legitimate knowledge of the art specifically. Thank you.

[Cruentus]

I also have a question here: If kyosho training is specifically geared toward "one touch" defense, what happens if it doesn't work? Where does this leave the student who hasn't mastered the art, in terms of defensive capabilities? Are there other techniques incorporated into the repertoire such as blocking, kicking, locking, trapping, etc.? Or should this system be learned as an add on to other arts? Please excuse me, but I'm quite ignorant on this topic. I'd really like to direct the question to Rrousselot, or anyone else here who has legitimate knowledge of the art specifically. Thank you.

If one touch doesn't work, I'd assume they'd touch em again! ;)

[Matt Stone]

First thing yes I have used Kyusho on the streets several times and it has never not worked, but like your hero said I don't carry around a camera all the time.

Sure you have... The unprovable argument that someone has used something "on the street" is a common defense... It purports to legitimize the claims of the individual - the technique is valid, and the individual has combat experience. However, it is (at least with all the legitimate practitioners I have ever trained with) the least often cited qualifier. Most folks I know or have trained with (and they are usually one and the same) are more than willing to demo a questionable technique on the spot at whatever level of intensity you prefer.


In the line of work that I was in you got plenty of real time practice ( law enforcement )

Really? And what particular branch of law enforcement allowed you to make use of knock out techniques? My father was a career police officer, and I am a military paralegal. As a martial artist and a paralegal I have had frequent occasion to train, train with, and discuss procedures with military and civlian law enforcement personnel... Unless you are former LAPD (just kidding), I doubt any department (if you were a cop) would allow you to KO suspects at will, thereby affording you the "street cred" you allude to.

Please, where did you work, what did you do, and what particular duties enabled you to KO folks at full tilt boogie often enough to allege skill in that technique?


lots of people that have at one time or are now in law enforcement,

And there are a lot of military people around the Army post I am assigned to that train in bogus, fradulent martial arts schools... What's your point? That the student body somehow qualifies the training conducted? Hardly. If prominent people attend a crap seminar, does the seminar get better by the quality of its attendees? I don't think so...


How can you tell me that I don't have enough real experience when you no nothing about me.

I "told" you no such thing. Please re-read my post, and if possible, answer the questions I asked.


People come to our seminars because they have instructors that either don't know, or know what they are talking about but choose not to show anyone.

Or because they feel that they will be spoon-fed information that their instructors don't feel they are either a) technically prepared for or b) ethically mature enough to handle.

Anyone that promises quick skills and free information will find attendees clamoring to get in the door. Whether those skills and that information is worth the effort or whether the attendees were of proper character remains to be seen... Only time will tell in either case.


Do I have as much MA experience as Rob, NO, do I have enough real life experience,Yes.

Please, post your curriculum vitae for us to review. I would love to know what "real life experience" you have that beats 20+ years of training directly under the main influence your teacher learned very little actual information from...


I can tell when someone is full of crap and has to get defensive when someone from DKI gets in here, because he is afraid that people will realize that he isn't the only one that knows true Kyusho Jitsu.

And I can tell when someone from DKI who would solicit information on "kyusho jitsu" from other sources on internet fora (been done before by others, you aren't the only one) gets defensive about the alleged skills of his seminar teacher and class instructors rather than providing rebuttal comments or answers to questions posed...

And it is "jutsu," not "jitsu." God I can't believe this is still an issue... :rolleyes:


About Dillmans knowledge all I know is what I am told I was not around when GM Dillman first started training in the Martial Arts, but there are lots of articles and magazines to back up what he has said.

Well, some of us have been around that long... Robert is telling you flatly that he was present when Dillman attended the seminars with Mr. Oyata! How much more first hand do you need? And if you are defending information presented to you be a particular party, do you genuinely believe that said party is going to propagate information detrimental to his own public image? I doubt it.


He has done some great things for the Martial Arts and and has had some great teachers,

That wasn't the issue. The fundamental issue remains that the pressure point fighting techniques being taught by DKI are neither trained nor demonstrated at full speed... Why? Either the techniques are too deadly (in which case striking them at a stand still should only serve to increase the effect), or the instructors are incapable of making them work at that pace.


In my oppinion he has proven his method, and has proven it all over the world, we continually test in Medical Centers,

How has he "proven" his method? If I say that I have "rediscovered" a previously forgotten method of flying a fighter plane, but I am unwilling to actually fly said plane in combat conditions, how then is my "rediscovered" flying skill validated? Your logic fails you.

And what medical research has been conducted? Perhaps you personally are unaware of where and when, but if you choose to cite such research it'd be a good idea to be prepared to provide that to anyone that asks... Otherwise it is just a good story.


and take in new people all the time from all sorts of different backgrounds. We have people from all over the world in DKI (china, france, UK, ecuador, netherlands, canada......).Don't you think that some of these people would have proven us wrong by now.

Because you get new students (though I doubt they are in the hordes you imply they come in), and because they come from all over the world, doesn't mean that what they are being taught is any more or less questionable. They could only prove you wrong if they knew more than what was being taught by DKI, in which case (if they did know more) I don't think they'd be attending DKI seminars...


I cannot speak for those that left DKI ( by the way there hasn't been that many people leve DKI).

Nor can you truly speak for those you claim left Mr. Oyata... I know of an individual in our local area that claims to be a student of Mr. Oyata. His kata are good, his knowledge is good, and I genuinely believe him to be a good man. But nobody that has been a regular student of Mr. Oyata's (I mean those that don't just attend seminars, but actually trained in his dojo) seems to know him... This leads me to believe that those who "left" Mr. Oyata's training may not have done so because they felt Dillman had more to offer. They may have relocated and DKI was the only thing they could find. They may have left after not "learned" enough quickly enough to satisfy their craving. There could be any of a number of reasons, but their departure does not imply DKI is superior.


We show techniques at a stand still so people can learn them.

Fine. But when they have learned it, what next?

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Wow...

I...I'm speechless...the Chi just hit me through my keyboard...it was like getting run over by a Bull...that's it!!! It's BULL CHIT !!!

I am really disappointed in everyone at Martial Talk...that you can have a "polite and respectful" discussion about this nonsense... This stuff gives martial arts a bad name. Any serious discussion of Dim Mak makes you all look like...dare I say it...fools.

Check out the Fox News story on Dim Mak and PPKO's available from Bullshido.com

http://www.bullshido.net/modules.php?s=&name=Downloads&d_op=viewdownloaddetails&lid=80&ttitle=Dim_Mak_vs._BJJ

[Matt Stone]

I also have a question here: If kyosho training is specifically geared toward "one touch" defense, what happens if it doesn't work?

Exactly the point of testing your ability to apply this method at full tilt boogie instead of assuming that, since it works on people while standing still, it will work at full speed and full power. Big difference between a stationary target and a target moving even at slow speed, much less one barrelling toward you in an attempt to rip your head from your shoulders...


Where does this leave the student who hasn't mastered the art, in terms of defensive capabilities? Are there other techniques incorporated into the repertoire such as blocking, kicking, locking, trapping, etc.? Or should this system be learned as an add on to other arts?

From what little background I have in this subject...

Of course there are blocks, kicks, etc. Vital point striking is included in nearly every traditional art, sometimes encoded in the forms, sometimes passed down so simply that you don't even know you are doing it, sometimes in such a watered down format it no longer amounts to vital point striking at all. In Yiliquan, we learn where vital point targets are so that when we strike (be it the body, the head or the limbs) we strike at places that will maximize the damage. It is less "I'll hit Stomach point 289, Gall Bladder 912, Pancreas 766, Prostate 112, etc.," and more knowing that striking certain places are far more effective in producing a variety of effects than others.

Learning it as an "add on" or "plug in" will take it out of contextual relationship with the art you already know. It won't hurt you to learn it, but it'll take a while to integrate the points into what you already do...


Please excuse me, but I'm quite ignorant on this topic.

Doesn't stop some people from lecturing about it, and it doesn't stop others from teaching it. Ask away...

[ppko]

If anyone has any serious questions about Kyusho Jitsu you can ask but I will not reply to any more questions against DKI


PPKO

[Matt Stone]

If anyone has any serious questions about Kyusho Jitsu you can ask but I will not reply to any more questions against DKI


PPKO

And there you go... :idunno:

Okay, serious question then (not that my previous ones weren't serious, but apparently your definition and mine conflict)...

What is the mechanism by which your knock outs are effected? Why do you use multiple point strikes? How is the diameter of the impact zone around a strike point determined? What methods of training do you utilize to develop the striking weapons (e.g. knuckles, etc.)? How much force do you employ to activate a striking point?

Thanks in advance for your reply...

:asian:

[James Kovacich]

I wanna get some before this thread gets locked... %-}

PPKO (Pressure Point Knock Out?) -


:asian:

This is great! Just like old times!

[Matt Stone]

This is great! Just like old times!

Ain't it though?

I don't plan on posting too often, nor interrupting discussions overly much, but this one was just too tasty to pass up...

I'm waiting for the next "ding" on my reputation points for being such a bad, bad man...

I wish I knew where PPKO lived and trained. Not because I want to attack him or anything of the sort - I just want him to try his KO on me. It's been a long time since I got to see the ceiling from that particular vantage point...

%-}

[Flatlander]

If anyone has any serious questions about Kyusho Jitsu you can ask but I will not reply to any more questions against DKI


PPKOThen do so, please, I have a few if you look a few posts back....

[James Kovacich]

Ain't it though?

I don't plan on posting too often, nor interrupting discussions overly much, but this one was just too tasty to pass up...

I'm waiting for the next "ding" on my reputation points for being such a bad, bad man...

I wish I knew where PPKO lived and trained. Not because I want to attack him or anything of the sort - I just want him to try his KO on me. It's been a long time since I got to see the ceiling from that particular vantage point...

%-}
Mosly I just peep in the forums. I think what you and robert offer is what I liked the most.

[Rich Parsons]

Ain't it though?

I don't plan on posting too often, nor interrupting discussions overly much, but this one was just too tasty to pass up...

I'm waiting for the next "ding" on my reputation points for being such a bad, bad man...

I wish I knew where PPKO lived and trained. Not because I want to attack him or anything of the sort - I just want him to try his KO on me. It's been a long time since I got to see the ceiling from that particular vantage point...

%-}

Matt,

Only because you stated you are waiting for it.

DING! :asian: I figured a public post of it would also meet your requests.


It is good to keep an open mind and to be willing to experience the technique to see if it works.

:asian:

[RRouuselot]

Robert,



Sorry to interrupt...



I have a technical question.



So Atemi is the practice of knocking out your opponent through pressure points, and Kyusho is "1 touch 1 kill" through pressure points? Is this correct?



If so, how do you road test Kyusho (assuming that going around and killing isn't an option)? I mean...how does it "work" period? If your not comfortable answering that one publically, please PM me. Also, what's the language translation of each, as I know that your well versed in language.



Thanks!






How do you “road test” Kyusho……well personally I like to use members of DKI that visit my dojo. (joking) Although they do get “schooled” in the difference between the two when they do visit............



The loose definition of Atemi is point/target, and for Kyusho it’s vital point.



Atemi strikes are used to stun an attacker and give the body a shock, brachial strike for example. Most Atemi techniques are done on the limbs where as most kyusho are done on the body cavity……which obviously houses organs and such therefore making the strikes more dangerous and “potentially” lethal.

Also, the way Atemi and kyusho points are struck is different which I will not go into for several reasons. One is I am not sure who is reading this……

I would also like to add that one shouldn’t train in pressure point techniques only and neglect other aspects of the art (which seems to be the case for some dojo)…….i.e. the basics….things like foort work, blocks, etc.

I will try to answer some of the other questions later, but now I have to scoot off to work.

[tshadowchaser]

Folks lets bring this back to the original post. Someone has offered to discuss varrious points and application lets do so.
I started a thread a while back just for this lets use it and see what ideas , knowledge, and differences of application can be used and gained.
http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14767
If you do not like the point I picked out please pick one yourslef and lets have some knowledge given and recieved.

==================================================

MOD NOTE
As for this thread
This is not a bash Dillman thread
please keep the disscussion polite and friendly.

tshadowchaser
sheldon bedell

[tshadowchaser]

Mod Note

It is not the policy of MartialTalk to allow any person or group to be Bashed.
Such procedure is against the rules of this forum.
please keep all discussions polite and friendly

tshadowchaser
sheldon bedell

[Matt Stone]

I'll apologize for my unabashed bashing of G. Dillman. His record stands for itself. However, I will maintain that in this particular instance it was apparent that PPKO had no knowledge of Dillman's prior history other than what PPKO was told by his instructors and/or Dillman.

PPKO wanted to discuss pressure point use. I am all for it. But let's discuss how pressure points are used against attackers that mean to do you harm, not against compliant, non-resisting, crash-test dummies... Ultimately, there is a difference in how the points are applied because of that particular dynamic.


:duel:

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Sure, impolite bashing isn't nice. But, don't the moderators also have some responsibility to make sure that unsubstantiated claims of martial arts magic receive the critical scrutiny they deserve? Don't the moderators have some responsibility to point out that some practices are inherently unsafe, inneffective, or are just plain nonsense?

[vincehardy3]

I would suggest starting another thread that deals specifically with pressure point striking. I agree that striking a person that is submissive (in a prone position) doesn't prove anything. The real test is in a real world or controlled atmosphere application.

With pressure points we need to realize that it is a very dangerous "art". It is something that should be taught by a qualified instructor, and training in the class setting should be facilitated by a qualified instructor. Understand that with pressure points there are areas that can be seized and/or struck, and/or broken. So know that points can be catagorized accordingly as seizing points, disabling points, killing points, etc. Some points are harder to get to than others, and some points require a specific application of technique in order to be effective.

So, I would suggest letting this be a starting point. I have been taught this by my instructor, and I don't mind discussing general matters. I won't go into the deep stuff. It isn't mystical or anything like that. It just comes down to knowing the body, and how it reacts to trauma.

Vince

[RHD]

Sure, impolite bashing isn't nice. But, don't the moderators also have some responsibility to make sure that unsubstantiated claims of martial arts magic receive the critical scrutiny they deserve? Don't the moderators have some responsibility to point out that some practices are inherently unsafe, inneffective, or are just plain nonsense?

Would that be Pandora's Box I just heard creaking open? :idunno:

Mike

[Bob Hubbard]

Sure, impolite bashing isn't nice. But, don't the moderators also have some responsibility to make sure that unsubstantiated claims of martial arts magic receive the critical scrutiny they deserve? Don't the moderators have some responsibility to point out that some practices are inherently unsafe, inneffective, or are just plain nonsense?

Nope. To be blunt, we aint paid enough to wade through all the BS every wannabe with an inkjet and a scrap of cloth puts us through. If you are a prospective student, you need to take the time to check out an instructors credentials yourself. Use the forums, use the local BBB, check other schools, etc. If you just walk in, sign up and think you're gonna "boot some head", well.....there are a lot of "Ed Grubberman"'s out there, y'know? Buyer Beware.

If there is a question/concern/etc. about a system, art, or artist, the "Horror" forum is the best place to raise it. Our mission is not to 'Bust Frauds', but to allow a friendly enviroment for discussion, much like relaxing after a seminar, or in someones living room.


Would that be Pandora's Box I just heard creaking open?
Maybe. But its a point that has been covered here before. MT's mission is the friendly discussion of the arts, not the credential verification board. My background is in the FMA. I've neither the credentials, experience or education to determine if someone outside my area of experience is 'ok'.

For our Official Policy on Frauds, Fraud Busting, and Credential checks, please see here:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8708

The questions on George Dillman's legitimacy, background, sanity, etc should probably be examined in the "Horror" forum.

The questions on pressure points, their theory and application is ok here, but may also be better suited for one of our other forums.

Questions on TCM should also probably be done in a different forum, and if none are really appropriate, with enough interest, I would gladly set one up.

:asian:

[RRouuselot]

I also have a question here: If kyosho training is specifically geared toward "one touch" defense, what happens if it doesn't work?





Actually, the sole purpose of kyusho is not a so called “one touch” defense. This unfortunately has been perpetuated by folks that are not skilled nor very knowledgeable in kyusho.

The main purpose of kyusho/atemi type arts is to stop the attack as fast as possible without doing much permanent damage to the attacker. Basically keeping the damage to the bare minimum.

If you beat the crap out of someone then they will just dislike you even more than when they attacked you. If you don’t hurt them so badly and help them change their mind and possibly improve their ways you have not only helped that person but also society.








Where does this leave the student who hasn't mastered the art, in terms of defensive capabilities?



It leaves them doing very poor techniques as can be seen in several afore mentioned mpegs.

You will fight the way you train. If you never take the time to learn proper foot work, hand motion/positioning, power, focus, speed, timing etc you will NEVER be good at kyusho/atemi arts. Where does one gain skill in those things…….basic training. I noticed in many of the mpegs on a certain site I can’t name because it might be considered “bashing” that the defender’s body position was poor, the foot work was sometimes opposite of what it should have been to produce a better defensive technique. Often the hand position was off as well. By watching this kind of basic movement of someone you can start to get an insight as to their skill level and the effectiveness of their techniques in a real life situation.








Are there other techniques incorporated into the repertoire such as blocking, kicking, locking, trapping, etc.? Or should this system be learned as an add on to other arts?



In my particular art (Okinawan Karate) they are not separate arts but all part of the same art and should be used together and not pieced apart. It’s much easier to stand on 2 legs then 1 right? Well if think of one leg being basics and the other leg being advanced techniques you will have better balance and strength. (Sorry for the poor metaphor)

[Flatlander]

Thank you sir for the reply. So to carry forward, then, you stated that the primary objective here is to stop an attack without seriously damaging the opponent. Through what "mechanism" is this accomplished? Through pain in the pressure points, or do you target immobilization points, etc.? Sorry for my ignorance, but as expressed before, I have zero exposure to this art, but am eager to expand my martial vocabulary.

[Matt Stone]

Some points cause intense, immobilizing pain. Some points temporarily stun the opponent with enough pain to force natural, instinctive reactions. Some points cause structural damage, eliminating the ability to continue to fight. Some points render the attacker unconscious.

It all depends... The endless "what if" question, right?

For example -

One of my favorite striking points is located on the head of the humerus, and is exposed when the arm is retracted rearward (as in withdrawing it opposite the punching hand in a traditional reverse punch). This retraction causes the anterior head of the deltoid muscle to stretch and thin out, exposing the musculocutaneous nerve running directly beneath it (and directly over the head of the humerus). Hitting the tip of the shoulder, even with a relatively light but solid blow, when it is so positioned causes quite a bit of discomfort and an inability to use the arm effectively for quite a while. A hard blow will render the arm nearly useless for several minutes - far long enough to deal with whatever else the opponent may have in store for you.

We call that point "shoulder cutting," and is roughly equivalently located to LI 15. It isn't that we are striking the acupuncture point (though it certainly does get struck), it is simply an anatomical target.

I like to employ this point when approached with a low line punch or hook.

Assuming my attacker is attacking with a right punch, I present my left arm, moving it parallel to the ground, perpendicular to the punching arm of my opponent, deflecting his punch downward (so it is sloppily similar to a low block, but not quite - it is more of a forearm smash, moving into the wrap) as I wrap my left arm through his elbow crease and under his armpit. This gets the opponent into a "chicken wing," half nelson position, and we are nearly side by side, shoulder to shoulder. As I wrap my arm up and around, retracting his arm rearward as described above, the "shoulder cutting" point is exposed. So, placing my left hand on the opponent's right shoulder blade, I "punch my own hand" through his "shoulder cutting" point.

From that initial strike I move on into other more debilitating strikes to incapacitate the opponent.

[RRouuselot]

Thank you sir for the reply. So to carry forward, then, you stated that the primary objective here is to stop an attack without seriously damaging the opponent. Through what "mechanism" is this accomplished? Through pain in the pressure points, or do you target immobilization points, etc.? Sorry for my ignorance, but as expressed before, I have zero exposure to this art, but am eager to expand my martial vocabulary.



Actually through both pain and immobilization. The primary objective is always to stop an attack in any defensive situation…… Certain types of strikes to certain areas will cause temporary paralysis or a reaction similar to hitting your “funny bone”……others may cause something similar to the feeling you get when the wind is knocked out of you, except it can feel 100 times worse……others may just knock you out. I have yet to see anyone actually die from being hit with kyusho.

Being hit in a pressure point can send a shock wave type feeling through an entire limb or area depending on how hard and at what angle the strike is done.

(Matt, you may recall this angle thing from the strikes to the arm/bicep we went over)

Striking points can be used to stop an attack entirely or deflect it so that a different defense can be used if need be…….it all depends on the situation…….which varies with each attack. Having said that......everything should flow from one technique to the next and should not be "canned" or look as if it came out of a cookie cutter. Your first move should lead into the next and so on and so on. Hence the need for "kumiawase".

[Turbo]

Why is there so much misdirection while teaching Kyusho? They say you only need angle and direction with the right combination of points! Its not that easy.....say you take a basic combination.

Fire, Metal, Wood,

While using the wrist points and striking LI 10, and finishing to Gallbladder 20 this should be a basic KO, I have seen many KOs demostrated with this process. When I try to duplicate this, yes it hurts the person, but no KO!

So if your point location and angle and direction are correct what else is there?

Yes I have even added the INTENT!

What are some other things we can try to improve our success with KYusho?

Turbo

[ppko]

[QUOTE=Turbo]Why is there so much misdirection while teaching Kyusho? They say you only need angle and direction with the right combination of points! Its not that easy.....say you take a basic combination.

Fire, Metal, Wood,

While using the wrist points and striking LI 10, and finishing to Gallbladder 20 this should be a basic KO, I have seen many KOs demostrated with this process. When I try to duplicate this, yes it hurts the person, but no KO!

So if your point location and angle and direction are correct what else is there?

Yes I have even added the INTENT!

What are some other things we can try to improve our success with KYusho?

Turbo[Quote]
Have you tried hitting LI10 hard and Gb 20 with not as much force this may help.

PPKO

[Flatlander]

Mr. Stone, Mr. Rouuselot, thank you for the brief analysis. If I were looking for a Kyosho Jutsu practitioner under which to learn, do you have any reccommendations in terms of what to look for, affiliations, etc.? I haven't looked around yet, but I imagine this is something I will need to travel for If I want to learn.

[Matt Stone]

Why is there so much misdirection while teaching Kyusho? They say you only need angle and direction with the right combination of points! Its not that easy.....say you take a basic combination.

Fire, Metal, Wood,

While using the wrist points and striking LI 10, and finishing to Gallbladder 20 this should be a basic KO, I have seen many KOs demostrated with this process. When I try to duplicate this, yes it hurts the person, but no KO!

So if your point location and angle and direction are correct what else is there?

Yes I have even added the INTENT!

What are some other things we can try to improve our success with KYusho?


Turbo
Have you tried hitting LI10 hard and Gb 20 with not as much force this may help.

PPKO

1) I would love to have someone, anyone, perform the combination you are saying is a KO combination on me...

2) "GB 20," properly known as Fengchi in acupuncture, and known in our spotting method as "Heaven Point," requires more than just a light strike.

3) Perhaps the reason your "kyusho jutsu" doesn't work is that you haven't developed the correct kind of power in your technique... In traditional Chinese vital point striking, quite a bit of conditioning of the striking weapons and development of a particular quality of focused power is conducted in order to effect the points. You might want to consider what you are doing in terms of striking - just hitting them isn't enough; you need to hit them with the right angle and direction (you seem to know that), but also with the right kind of power.

Just a thought.

[Cruentus]

properly known as Fengchi in acupuncture

I prefer to knock people out using Fung-shui;

I redecorate their house poorly, making them feel faint at th sight.

nyuk nyuk nyuk...
:uhyeah:

[Matt Stone]

I prefer to knock people out using Fung-shui;

I redecorate their house poorly, making them feel faint at th sight.

nyuk nyuk nyuk...
:uhyeah:

Or, alternately, rearrange your furniture and then invite them in (with the lights turned out). Don't tell people you've moved the tables.

I like Dog Fu, too... I invite people over and loose my pit bull upon them...

[ppko]

1) I would love to have someone, anyone, perform the combination you are saying is a KO combination on me...

2) "GB 20," properly known as Fengchi in acupuncture, and known in our spotting method as "Heaven Point," requires more than just a light strike.

3) Perhaps the reason your "kyusho jutsu" doesn't work is that you haven't developed the correct kind of power in your technique... In traditional Chinese vital point striking, quite a bit of conditioning of the striking weapons and development of a particular quality of focused power is conducted in order to effect the points. You might want to consider what you are doing in terms of striking - just hitting them isn't enough; you need to hit them with the right angle and direction (you seem to know that), but also with the right kind of power.

Just a thought.First of all I was just using the example that he gave me if I hit LI10 my next point would probably be LI18

PPKO

[Cryozombie]

Matt, I do Ching Ching Pow.

That brings up a good question... for the Kyusho points to be effective, do they require light, moderate, or powerful strikes, or does it depend on the combination of points?

[ppko]

Matt, I do Ching Ching Pow.

That brings up a good question... for the Kyusho points to be effective, do they require light, moderate, or powerful strikes, or does it depend on the combination of points?It all goes by feel for instance if you kick Sp6 hard than more than not you should be able to lightly tap St5. If you do your strikes one at a time in a dojo setting. On the street you can't think like that you just do what you need to to survive.
PPKO

[Matt Stone]

First of all I was just using the example that he gave me if I hit LI10 my next point would probably be LI18

PPKO

I wasn't saying the combination wouldn't work, just that I don't necessarily believe in the need for combinations in the first place and secondly I want someone to apply their alleged skill in pressure point striking to KO me...

I asked my teacher to do it so I could experience it and so that I would know, definitively, that he could do it. With DKI preaching their skills worldwide, I want to see if a DKI person can KO a non-believer...

And I won't even touch on the "no touch KO" at all... That's a whole 'nother animal altogether... :rolleyes:

[ppko]

I wasn't saying the combination wouldn't work, just that I don't necessarily believe in the need for combinations in the first place and secondly I want someone to apply their alleged skill in pressure point striking to KO me...

I asked my teacher to do it so I could experience it and so that I would know, definitively, that he could do it. With DKI preaching their skills worldwide, I want to see if a DKI person can KO a non-believer...

And I won't even touch on the "no touch KO" at all... That's a whole 'nother animal altogether... :rolleyes:Come to a DKI seminar and tell them what you have told me and I am sure they will have no problem KOing you, preferably make it a George Dillman seminar.

PPKO

[Matt Stone]

Matt, I do Ching Ching Pow.

So do I... Preferably from at least 400 meters out, but that's just me...

ONE SHOT ONE KILL HOOAH!!!


That brings up a good question... for the Kyusho points to be effective, do they require light, moderate, or powerful strikes, or does it depend on the combination of points?

I can't speak about DKI combinations... We don't do it that way. We may use multiple points during an engagement, but we don't require points to be hit in sequences in order for other points to work.

As for the amount of power, for us, it depends on the point, what underlying structure it affects (bone, muscle, nerve, blood), and the relative depth of the point in the tissue.

[ppko]

So do I... Preferably from at least 400 meters out, but that's just me...

ONE SHOT ONE KILL HOOAH!!!



I can't speak about DKI combinations... We don't do it that way. We may use multiple points during an engagement, but we don't require points to be hit in sequences in order for other points to work.

As for the amount of power, for us, it depends on the point, what underlying structure it affects (bone, muscle, nerve, blood), and the relative depth of the point in the tissue.We only learn how to do the knock outs but we also research how to do the kills but we do not practice those there is no need to we have done it for medical research and that is all we have to do.

PPKO

[Matt Stone]

Come to a DKI seminar and tell them what you have told me and I am sure they will have no problem KOing you, preferably make it a George Dillman seminar.

PPKO

Getting snippy are we? :rolleyes:

If George ever ends up out this way, or even his students, I wouldn't have a problem paying to attend their seminar. I'd go in with an open mind, believe me. But it boils down to "show me or blow me," and I know the difference between a Jedi love tap and being hit hard enough to KO me anyway (which is something I remember being said about George - one person wasn't sure if it was kyusho or just the fact that George hit like a mule that KOd him in the end...)...

But until that time... I remain unconvinced.

[Matt Stone]

We only learn how to do the knock outs but we also research how to do the kills but we do not practice those there is no need to we have done it for medical research and that is all we have to do.

PPKO

What medical facilities, universities, or independent organizations have worked with DKI to research these things? I'd like to contact them to find out what their findings were...

[Cruentus]

The thing is, if you do a block and a check on someones attacking hand, and slam a knife hand on the side of their neck, they very well should KO. This could be said to be a "pressure point combination."

It just makes sense...the bodies bio-electrical energy and blood rushes to the truama on the wrist, leaving the neck more exposed to a shot. Some of the stuff is very practical, I think, whether its DKI, RyuKyu, or even where I do this in Modern Arnis (but we don't memorize points...we just do it). When you give trauma to one part of the body, other parts are more vulnerable. I don't do DKI, I just train and spar; and that just makes sense regardless of what you train in, and how "legit" it is.

Then there is other stuff that is purely speculative often not practical, such as the time of day and element stuff, the "emotional" stuff, and especially the no-touch stuff. Now, I am being purposefully vague here by saying "stuff" because I don't even want to argue specifics, as that isn't the point of what I am saying.

I am not a "theoretical" martial artist. I may talk a great game on line, but when I train, I am more concerned with "DOING" first, rather then speculating over things.

Anyways, my point is, that when it comes to self defense, I think that we shouldn't lose site on the practical and simple and "road tested" stuff, because that's what your going to use anyways.

:asian:
PAUL
P.S. For gods sakes, can someone help me spell the word "Trauma." :rolleyes:

[ppko]

What medical facilities, universities, or independent organizations have worked with DKI to research these things? I'd like to contact them to find out what their findings were...I know that we have been to UVA many times and we do a lot in Canada I will get the info for you.

PPKO
P.S.
Yes I am a little snippy but I have every reason to be. Until I am convinced that you are done attacking me and ready to talk to me than yes I have every right to be snippy.

[tshadowchaser]

Matt and Turbo thanks for trying to give some insite into various points and as to how and why they are used to a spicific end.
I realise that many points should not even be discussed but I see no reason why some of the non lethal ones can not.
Yes, I know that an errant strike , that misss its mark may cause much damage, but so can an errant punch or kick by anyone. I have seen the results of a misplaced strike that missed the nerve and hit a vain. It caused a clot , the clot dislodged, emegency surgurey was required to save the mans life. So I do not ask for this discussion out of ignorance of what could happen but rather in the intrest of learning and understanding.

[arnisador]

Come to a DKI seminar and tell them what you have told me and I am sure they will have no problem KOing you, preferably make it a George Dillman seminar.
I've tried that...no luck.

[klif]

CULT - Any group which has a pyramid type authoritarian
leadership structure with all teaching and guidance coming
from the person/persons at the top. The group will claim to be
the only way to God; Nirvana; Paradise; Ultimate Reality; Full
Potential, Way to Happiness etc, and will use thought reform
or mind control techniques to gain control and keep their
members.

This definition covers cults within all majopr world
religions, along with those cults which have no OBVIOUS
religious base such as commercial, educational and
psychological cults. Others may define these a little
differently, but this is the simplest to work from.

[Turbo]

Can someone elaborate on the right kind of power? Fa jing I think I got that covered but Yes I tried the Yin and Yang striking principle, also changing polarity, and using different striking tools, from a knuckle to a shuto. I tried a penetrating blow to a hit and come off....As hard as I hit gb20 there was a couple of times the force alone should have knocked my uke out! I cant figure it out....Turbo

[ppko]

Can someone elaborate on the right kind of power? Fa jing I think I got that covered but Yes I tried the Yin and Yang striking principle, also changing polarity, and using different striking tools, from a knuckle to a shuto. I tried a penetrating blow to a hit and come off....As hard as I hit gb20 there was a couple of times the force alone should have knocked my uke out! I cant figure it out....TurboIt all comes down to experience once you get a good feeling with what power you need where then you will know. Different people need different things like I said before try slacking off a bit, another thing I have a feeling this will be your first knock out so don't be so tense try loosening up a bit and don't be so anxious the knock out will come in due time.

With Respect
PPKO

[Matt Stone]

It all comes down to experience once you get a good feeling with what power you need where then you will know. Different people need different things like I said before try slacking off a bit, another thing I have a feeling this will be your first knock out so don't be so tense try loosening up a bit and don't be so anxious the knock out will come in due time.

With Respect
PPKO

So, what it sounds like you are saying is that the amount of pressure is a variable that cannot be anticipated... You said that "different people (targets?) need different things..." This would seem to imply that your pressure points aren't as effective as implied. It would certainly seem to be the death knell of the "no touch" KO as well...

Admittedly, some points (typically muscle points) require variable amounts of pressure based on the muscularity of the opponent, but bone points (which break the bone), nerve points (which directly affect the nerves), and blood points (which affect the veins and arteries) are much more consistent in their effects.

Turbo -

For our use, it isn't a question of how much power you need, it is an issue of how deep you need to penetrate.

And I'd advise anyone to guard against claiming to possess "fa jing." It is a much misunderstood term, and as equally inflammatory in certain circles as claims of "no touch" KO ability...

[Rich Parsons]

Come to a DKI seminar and tell them what you have told me and I am sure they will have no problem KOing you, preferably make it a George Dillman seminar.

PPKO


I've tried that...no luck.

I have tried this as well.

One gentleman was tapping the point in the side of my neck like he was lining up is strike. He could not get it to work when he did strike. Others tried this as well, including George Dillman. No Knock Out. Mr Dillman did say that some were harder to knock out than others. What took me by surprise that one of the guys wanted to try again. I had no problem until he wound up like a nice hey maker. I raised my hands and said,"Stop". "I realize that a rotation of my head on the spine at velocity will knock me out." "Please use the point and not physics of a bigger stronger strike."

Later, I was being a problem beause the helpers could not get another point to work on my arms to relase a grab. eorge Dillman came over. He did the technique and it did not force the release, then siad, "You are very strong". He did the technique again and then immediately reversed it to another technique. It forced the release. Now personally I think it was more to do with that I had Grabbed (* used my muscle action *), he moved, causing a reaction (* my muscle reaction *), and his counter, and I could not react other than to let go. So, yes the second counter worked.

So, my question to everyone here. Does this count as a pressure point attack? Or is this simple techniques put together. Both of George Dillman's attacks or counters were to points he pointed out as targets. So, was it physics of the body, and not quite a pressure point release, versus a pressure point release?

Next question, some have said size of activation?

Can you activate a pressure point center and not cause a reaction, yet make it much more readily to attack the second time?

So the size would be to the type of activation? Muscle or nerve or bone?

Thank you for those who answer.

:asian:

[arnisador]

I'm afraid that, in my experience, the DKI techniques work exceeedingly well when applied by a DKI instructor to one of his own students but rarely work when applied by a DKI instructor to a sceptic.

In fairness, I saw a KO by a DKI instructor (Mr. Kline?) at a Modern Arnis seminar in Michigan several years ago. Sitting next to me was an ophthalmologist who found many of the physiological explanations quite bizarre (e.g., treating a heart attack by pressure on the eyes). Nonetheless, when he saw the person's reaction to the KO, he felt it could not have been faked.

[Turbo]

Rich,

Master Dillman used two way action on you to get the release....its not pressure points. He explains and uses it alot, when you resist in a certain direction you are weaker in the opposite.

When you attack a point more than once, each time the pain should get worse even if using the same amount of force. I forgot the technical term for the "Protective Juice" that dillman says is around a point, but with every technique applied the "Juice" gets less and less until you can't take any force at all.
Turbo

[Turbo]

Hey Mike,

Can you tell me how far to penetrate on these points in this particular case:

LI10 to GB20

PLease more information!

Turbo

[RRouuselot]

Come to a DKI seminar and tell them what you have told me and I am sure they will have no problem KOing you, preferably make it a George Dillman seminar.

PPKO

You still have an invite to come to Mr. Oyata's seminar in next month and show how all this stuff (Kiaijutsu etc.) works..........it will be one of the few times I am in the US....

[RRouuselot]

We only learn how to do the knock outs but we also research how to do the kills but we do not practice those there is no need to we have done it for medical research and that is all we have to do.

PPKO:rolleyes:
I know when I shoot an animal with a gun I can kill it becasue I have done it before.........how do you know they are actually "kill-Bill kyusho pionts" unless you actually have done it???

Also.........which points do you consider Kyusho points and which do you consider Atemi points? Do strike them differently?

ppko,
I have asked you several serious/legit questions and to date you have not answered them.

[RRouuselot]

Rich,

I forgot the technical term for the "Protective Juice" that dillman says is around a point, but with every technique applied the "Juice" gets less and less until you can't take any force at all.
Turbo
Are you thinking of synovial fluid?

[RRouuselot]

I'm afraid that, in my experience, the DKI techniques work exceeedingly well when applied by a DKI instructor to one of his own students but rarely work when applied by a DKI instructor to a sceptic.

I had had the pretty much the same result with DKI people.

[ppko]

:rolleyes:
I know when I shoot an animal with a gun I can kill becasue I have done it before.........how do you know they are actually "kill-Bill kyusho pionts" unless you actually have done it???

Also.........which points do you consider Kyusho points and which do you consider Atemi points? How do strike them differently? Or do you strike them differently?

ppko,
I have asked you several serious/legit questions and to date you have not answered them.The last time we did a kill in a research facility we left the person out for 9sec. when the Dr.'s were yelling to bring him back. No I have not done these but we have enough research to back up our claims.
First I have not practiced Atemi, We use all pressure points on the body for Kyusho including the internal ones. We ussually keep it watered down to Knock outs but we still practice the kill shots. We sit down a lot discuss diurnal cycle, element of distruction, etc. When we practice the kill shots we just practice without hitting the opponent. When we do KOs the strikes are done seperatly just in case.
PPKO

[ppko]

So, what it sounds like you are saying is that the amount of pressure is a variable that cannot be anticipated... You said that "different people (targets?) need different things..." This would seem to imply that your pressure points aren't as effective as implied. It would certainly seem to be the death knell of the "no touch" KO as well...

Admittedly, some points (typically muscle points) require variable amounts of pressure based on the muscularity of the opponent, but bone points (which break the bone), nerve points (which directly affect the nerves), and blood points (which affect the veins and arteries) are much more consistent in their effects.

Turbo -

For our use, it isn't a question of how much power you need, it is an issue of how deep you need to penetrate.

And I'd advise anyone to guard against claiming to possess "fa jing." It is a much misunderstood term, and as equally inflammatory in certain circles as claims of "no touch" KO ability...No we just no how to read body types. In the dojo you have to use variable pressure on the street you don't care. Yes you are right but you take someone like me that doesn't feel most metal points. Then it is a matter of how much you either cheat or force you apply on your next technique it should be softer.

PPKO

[RRouuselot]

The last time we did a kill in a research facility we left the person out for 9sec. when the Dr.'s were yelling to bring him back. No I have not done these but we have enough research to back up our claims.PPKOWhy don’t you post it so we can all see it.


First I have not practiced Atemi, We use all pressure points on the body for Kyusho including the internal ones. We ussually keep it watered down to Knock outs but we still practice the kill shots. We sit down a lot discuss diurnal cycle, element of distruction, etc. When we practice the kill shots we just practice without hitting the opponent. When we do KOs the strikes are done seperatly just in case.PPKOYou must have missed the definition I supplied up a few posts on the differences between Atemi and Kyusho.

From the mpegs I have seen and from what I have winessed from DKI people firsthand all you are doing is Atemi points. I have yet to seen any DKI people use kyusho points.

[ppko]

I have tried this as well.

One gentleman was tapping the point in the side of my neck like he was lining up is strike. He could not get it to work when he did strike. Others tried this as well, including George Dillman. No Knock Out. Mr Dillman did say that some were harder to knock out than others. What took me by surprise that one of the guys wanted to try again. I had no problem until he wound up like a nice hey maker. I raised my hands and said,"Stop". "I realize that a rotation of my head on the spine at velocity will knock me out." "Please use the point and not physics of a bigger stronger strike."

Later, I was being a problem beause the helpers could not get another point to work on my arms to relase a grab. eorge Dillman came over. He did the technique and it did not force the release, then siad, "You are very strong". He did the technique again and then immediately reversed it to another technique. It forced the release. Now personally I think it was more to do with that I had Grabbed (* used my muscle action *), he moved, causing a reaction (* my muscle reaction *), and his counter, and I could not react other than to let go. So, yes the second counter worked.

So, my question to everyone here. Does this count as a pressure point attack? Or is this simple techniques put together. Both of George Dillman's attacks or counters were to points he pointed out as targets. So, was it physics of the body, and not quite a pressure point release, versus a pressure point release?

Next question, some have said size of activation?

Can you activate a pressure point center and not cause a reaction, yet make it much more readily to attack the second time?

So the size would be to the type of activation? Muscle or nerve or bone?

Thank you for those who answer.

:asian:The area of activation is the area that I can hit, rub, or touch to activate that pressure point. Every time you attack a pressure point it leaves it more vulnerable to attack the second time.

PPKO

[Mark L]

And I'd advise anyone to guard against claiming to possess "fa jing." It is a much misunderstood term, and as equally inflammatory in certain circles as claims of "no touch" KO ability...
What's fa jing?

[Turbo]

I got this definition from worldtaiji.com

Fads come and go. But fa-jing has been out there for a long time and utilised by many famous martial artists. The old one-inch punch was the flavour of the day back in the 70's and was glorified and mystified. People would study photos of Bruce Lee using mathematical equations and geometrical calculations to try and gain his secrets, especially that of the one-inch punch. All they needed to do was to have someone tell them about fa-jing which is what all of these people were using to gain such immense power over such short distances. Most people would study the hands of the exponents, claiming that it was this angle or this direction that caused this supernatural power. Others would call it Qi; others would just give up trying.
They all missed the boat though as it is the body that one must watch in order to find out how one gains fa-jing. The attacking peripheral is only secondary to what the body is doing. There is an old saying, one that not many people use nowadays as it is not in vogue. It is not in vogue because people simply got the real meaning wrong. The whole body is a weapon. Everyone who has been around a bit has heard of that saying. Now we all understand this to mean that the elbow is a weapon, the knee is a weapon, the fists, head, back, shoulders etc. No, this is wrong, what this saying means is literally, the whole body is the weapon while the parts are only secondary and happen as an adjunct to what the body is doing, this is real fa-jing. The fist does not punch, the whole body punches, the elbow does not strike, the whole body strikes etc.

The technique of fa-jing lies in what the body does to cause the peripheral to be thrust out at great speed and power. It is not the strength of the triceps, or the laterals that cause the power, but rather the whole body. So it stands to reason, that a smaller person is able to generate much more power than a body builder who is only using his triceps to generate the power for the punch, by using his whole body. There is simply much more power in a whole body than in one triceps muscle.

If one could utilise the power generated from a sneeze, this would be perfect fa-jing. When we sneeze, the whole body reacts violently, not just one part, but the whole. We are unable even to keep our eyes open upon the act of sneezing. It is the same with fa-jing. Upon impact, the eyes are closed for that split second and the body shakes violently at high frequency, throwing out a very deadly fist, or palm or elbow.

But not only is the whole body used as an initiator of such power for the peripherals, the whole body can be used, physically as a weapon. For instance, when someone grabs you, or is trying to take you down, grapple you etc. The whole body will perform a fa-jing movement, anywhere. This immense power is enough to cause even the strongest grapple to loosen his grip. The beauty of fa-jing is however, that in order for even the smallest part of the body to do fa-jing, every other portion must also be doing fa-jing, otherwise it is not fa-jing and only a muscular strike. And so, the grappler would not only find himself being shaken violently, some other peripheral would also be striking to points on his body.

Fa-jing and dim-mak are inseparable. There is dim-mak at a base level where someone is able to strike for instance to a point called 'stomach 9' just over the carotid sinus to cause a knock out. This by the way is the classic KO point used by an increasing number of karateka to show how good they are. Or one uses "Liver 13" to cause KO and great internal damage using finger strikes. These points can be used by anyone at a base level using pure physical force and not fa-jing. But if one wishes to rise to the highest level of dim-mak, then one must understand real fa-jing. This is where we use four different body shakes in order to 'put in the adverse Qi' and not just strike at physical dim-mak points.

Using fa-jing and dim-mak in this way, we are able to systematically cause the opponent's body to react in a known way. We are able to drain energy from the spleen to cause him to simply fall down, still conscious but not able to do anything about it. We are able to ad Qi to certain points to cause an organ to explode from within. We are even able to cause certain disease states to happen instantaneously by striking certain points. For instance, most will know that sunstroke is not nice. It makes us feel really crook and totally unable to do anything but sit down, let alone fight. Using dim-mak and fa-jing we are able to cause someone to have a bad case of sunstroke. We also know how to cure this sunstroke using the dim-mak antidote points. In this way, dim-mak and fa-jing are also used for healing. So we have a death art used to heal people. These points can actually be used to cure a real case of sunstroke.

We are able to cause someone's right or left leg to shake so violently that he falls down, for this we use certain spleen points on the upper arm and shoulder. But striking at these points without fa-jing will only cause the physical damage caused by the physical power of the strike. This is not fa-jing.

So we lean a few body shakes and think that we know all about fa-jing. No, then we have to learn all about the 'C' back and the rising Qi. Look at Bruce Lee when he is fighting, what do you see. Most people look at the physical movements and try to emulate what he was doing. Not many look at what was in his eyes or what the whole of his body was doing. In his own way, Bruce Lee was making use of a primordial posture called 'C' back. Or changing his human brain for the reptilian brain. We all of us still have bits in our brains that go back to prehistory and this part of the brain can be utilised by using certain body postures to bring out this fighting energy.

'C' back? Look at the great silver back (Gorilla to those who are not animal inclined); see what his back is doing naturally. It is not an 'S' shape like ours, but rather makes a 'C' shape. The Gorilla, although a placid calm animal, is also one of the greatest fighters of the animal world when protection of his family is concerned. He is a constant state or readiness, due to his 'C' back. The Qi is constantly ready to defend and attack. The eyes tell the story. When we cause our body to be in this state, the eyes change and we are ready to defend. It was the same way with Bruce Lee; he would go into that little stance of his alone and so bring up the fighting Qi. This is the difference between a martial artist and one who knows how to fight.

The 'C' back and the reptilian brain etc. are all scientific, based upon Western science. So where does all of this fit in with the ancient Chinese martial artists? All one has to do to find out that our current scientific knowledge about the human body is all there in the Chinese classics written hundreds of years ago. It states in the Taiji classics that we must round the shoulders and hollow the chest. 'C' back! It also states that we must see with the eye of the eagle, using the middle peripheral vision or 'Eagle Vision'. When we go into the 'C' back posture, the whole attitude changes and we are ready to fight. The arms, legs, back, chest, feet head, are all energised ready for action and release of energy. Couple this with the fa-jing and we have the classic animal way of self-defence. Simply put, hit him with as much power and speed before he has even attacked. This is stated in the Chinese classic of; 'if he attacks you, attack him first'.

The Types of Fa-jing:

There are four kinds of fa-jing, all generated from the whole body but having different ways to generate the power. The most common of the fa-jing is the 'closed shaking fa-jing'. This is where we are using the natural stance and punch using the same fist as the foot that is forward. The body shakes violently from left (if using a right fist) to right and then snaps back to the right to 'close' the movement. This final closing happens just upon impact and causes a wave of energy to be thrust into the target. The voice also plays an important part in all fa-jing. The voice is an intermediary between the physical movement and the internal action. Once again it gets back to the classics which say that the breath must be natural. Now most people interpret this as being that the breath must be slow and constant, but this is wrong. Only if you are performing a slow and constant movement must the breath be that. However, if we are performing a sudden fa-jing movement then the breath must also act accordingly with an explosive sound emanating from the voice box. This is what natural breathing means, when the breath is in harmony with the movement. So with a fa-jing movement, we cannot use a slow haaa sound for instance, we must use an explosive sound, which can be anything as long as it is explosive, like 'ba' or 'pa'.

The next fa-jing is the 'open' fa-jing shake. This is where in Taiji we use the posture known as single whip to strike to no less than four dim-mak points on the neck. This time, the body is (assuming that the right palm is doing the work with the right foot forward) shook firstly to the left, then to the right and finally with this final attack upon St.9 & SI16, back to the left, leaving an 'open' posture. This type of fa-jing move is said to suck energy away from the opponent.

The third fa-jing action is called 'closed up shaking fa-jing' and is used to put Qi into the points to cause sunstroke or to cause the associated organ to explode. This time the body sakes in the closed way, but also there is a spiralling of the body upward upon impact.

The fourth way of fa-jing is the 'open down fa-jing shake' and is used to drain energy from the lower heating space, thus draining energy from the body. It is the same as the open fa-jing but with a downward spiralling shake.

Many martial artists have the fa-jing naturally and would never have to learn it, but for the most of us it's a matter of hard slog to gain this great power.

A video called 'Fa-Jing, The Way Of Power, how to gain it, how to use it' is available from MTG Video.

Erle Montaigue is an Australian Martial Artist living in Australia and travelling to the USA, Canada and Europe each year to give workshops.

[Rich Parsons]

Rich,

Master Dillman used two way action on you to get the release....its not pressure points. He explains and uses it alot, when you resist in a certain direction you are weaker in the opposite.

When you attack a point more than once, each time the pain should get worse even if using the same amount of force. I forgot the technical term for the "Protective Juice" that dillman says is around a point, but with every technique applied the "Juice" gets less and less until you can't take any force at all.
Turbo

Ok, I would agree that the two way action is not a pressure point. It was hard for me to see it as such, then or now.

Some might ask why I did not ask George Dillman right then. Others had questions and he was off, to help them. I did not chase him down.

[Rich Parsons]

Next question, some have said size of activation?

Can you activate a pressure point center and not cause a reaction, yet make it much more readily to attack the second time?

So the size would be to the type of activation? Muscle or nerve or bone?

Thank you for those who answer.

:asian:

Robert and or Matt,

You both have given knowledgeable answers in my mind previously.

Do you have an opinion of statment or answer to these questions?

Does the type of center being attack determine the size of the area of sensitivity?

Thanks

[RRouuselot]

Next question, some have said size of activation?

Can you activate a pressure point center and not cause a reaction, yet make it much more readily to attack the second time?

So the size would be to the type of activation? Muscle or nerve or bone?

Thank you for those who answer.
----------------------------------------------------------
Robert and or Matt,

You both have given knowledgeable answers in my mind previously.

Do you have an opinion of statment or answer to these questions?

Does the type of center being attack determine the size of the area of sensitivity?

ThanksYes it does matter. Some weak areas of the body are obviously weaker than others.

There are places on the arm that respond to pressure/pain much slower than some places on the inside/underside (funny bone for example)of the arm as well as places on the torso.

Having said that, the more conditioned areas of the body require a bit more juice when being struck as opposed to those along the rib cage for example.

About size: Since Kyusho and Atemi strikes are often not using a single acupuncture point, as I have mentioned numerous times before, the size will very. This is due to the fact that there maybe be a "cluster" of acupuncture points in a given area and unless you have a really small finger for striking and are REALLY accurate you may hit several points with one blow.

On the side of the neck for example there are a combination of about 5~10 acupuncture points that are accidently struck at the same when doing a "neck whack" KO (which does not use kyusho or atemi to produce the KO by the way).

DKI people claim they are hitting a "kyusho" point when doing this strike. Yet NONE of them can tell me which one.
If you look at any of the "neck whack" Kos they do you will see them hit at least 3~4 points each time. They don’t always hit the same 3~4 though. Kinda makes ya wonder why they are getting Koed if they are using the exact same point each time. Also kinda makes ya wonder why they say they are using kyusho but can't seem to tell ya which point they are using.:lol:


Points on the limbs tend to be more spread out away from each other than those on the torso. They (limb areas) are also more accessible but tend to be more resilient to strikes than those on the torso too.

[Matt Stone]

Getting snippy are we? :rolleyes:

If George ever ends up out this way, or even his students, I wouldn't have a problem paying to attend their seminar. I'd go in with an open mind, believe me. But it boils down to "show me or blow me," and I know the difference between a Jedi love tap and being hit hard enough to KO me anyway (which is something I remember being said about George - one person wasn't sure if it was kyusho or just the fact that George hit like a mule that KOd him in the end...)...

But until that time... I remain unconvinced.

Ooooh, some real tough guy did it again... I got dinged in my reputation points because I posted the above comments.

Y'know, giving me "bad" rep points just spurs me on... It lets me know that what I'm saying it getting to someone. God, I hope so... Maybe then the BS will come to a screeching halt.

Interestingly enough, our man PPKO is posting the exact same thread on www.budoseek.com, www.martialartsplanet.com, and who knows where else... Also interestingly enough, he's being questioned at those forums as well, and is failing to answer any questions posed regarding the validity of his claims.

If it looks like a duck, quacks, and is waterproof, there's a good chance no tough KOs don't work, y'know?

But, some folks like to believe in things even in the face of evidence to the contrary. If it were something I believed worked, I'd put it to the test to evaluate its effectiveness rather than getting defensive and running away. But that's just me, and I'm a big bad man that gives MA a bad name...

%-}

[Matt Stone]

Just to clarify something...

I could give two flying sh|ts about my reputation points. People will know me and form opinions on my based on what I write. If they agree, great. If not, hopefully they'll take me to task on my disagreements and we can further explore the issue and perhaps come to a greater understanding of the issue because of it.

But ding my points all you like... My issue is with quailing whiners tagging me with negative points because I'm such a meanie... Grow some functioning glands and address my comments in public rather than skulking behind the scenes poking sticks in an ineffective attempt at "counting coup."

Still waiting for answers to my earlier questions... Maybe PPKO is too busy defending himself on other boards to reply here...? :idunno:

[Turbo]

Why don't people stop talking about "My Instructor /Your Instructor" B.S. and talk about application of KYUSHO/DIM MAK!
If we have a different opinion when it comes to application, we can trained the different ideas and post honest results....we might actually get somewhere like that....I too am waiting to have questions answered. Whats the point of being on a forum to discuss KYUSHO JITSU if no one is going to try and answer questions.....Every board I go to about kyusho is full of guys blowing smoke up my butt, telling only part of the information needed or they just can't say I DONT KNOW!

Someone who knows something should give us information that will help someone learn something...instead of preaching about crap that dont matter, JUST PUT UP OR SHUT UP! People want to learn not listen to people complain and wine....

Turbo

[Bob Hubbard]

"Jedi love tap"

:rofl:

[ppko]

Why don't people stop talking about "My Instructor /Your Instructor" B.S. and talk about application of KYUSHO/DIM MAK!
If we have a different opinion when it comes to application, we can trained the different ideas and post honest results....we might actually get somewhere like that....I too am waiting to have questions answered. Whats the point of being on a forum to discuss KYUSHO JITSU if no one is going to try and answer questions.....Every board I go to about kyusho is full of guys blowing smoke up my butt, telling only part of the information needed or they just can't say I DONT KNOW!

Someone who knows something should give us information that will help someone learn something...instead of preaching about crap that dont matter, JUST PUT UP OR SHUT UP! People want to learn not listen to people complain and wine....

TurboWhat questions were you wanting answered taht have been left unanswered.
I have no problem with answering questions some people just have a problem with me because I am DKI and I refuse to answer anything when they will attack DKI or me.

PPKO

[Turbo]

PPKO,
I wasnt directing that at you! I asked Mike about the depth of the strike I should lay on GB20 and he just wants to rip you and talk about DKI, Who cares about affiliation.......I dont care if you DKI, KI, DSI, what ever I just want to learn more about KYUSHO.

MIKE,
I think you made it clear you dont like DKI, or there concepts lets just discuss the points and application....I asked you a question and all you wanted to comment about was DKI this, PPKO that....How much depth do I need to hit the GB20 with??? Mike what is your background, and where do you train?

You guys need to kiss and make up so we can learn something!

Turbo

[Matt Stone]

MIKE,

Who's Mike?

[Rich Parsons]

Robert,

Thank You for your reply.

[Turbo]

Sorry I ment you Matt! Not MIKE!

[RRouuselot]

But, some folks like to believe in things even in the face of evidence to the contrary.
I still believe in The easter Bunny & Santa Clause............:ultracool

[RRouuselot]

Why don't people stop talking about "My Instructor /Your Instructor" B.S. and talk about application of KYUSHO/DIM MAK!
If we have a different opinion when it comes to application, we can trained the different ideas and post honest results....we might actually get somewhere like that....I too am waiting to have questions answered. Whats the point of being on a forum to discuss KYUSHO JITSU if no one is going to try and answer questions.....Every board I go to about kyusho is full of guys blowing smoke up my butt, telling only part of the information needed or they just can't say I DONT KNOW!

Someone who knows something should give us information that will help someone learn something...instead of preaching about crap that dont matter, JUST PUT UP OR SHUT UP! People want to learn not listen to people complain and wine....

Turbo
I too am waiting tho have my questions answered that I directly askedd ppko about kyusho. He said he would answer any serious questions on kyusho so I asked some.
It seems the questions must have been out of his league:idunno: since he has yet to answer a single serious question I and several others have asked.

[RRouuselot]

Robert,

Thank You for your reply.

No problem.
Was my answer satisfactory?

[Matt Stone]

UPDATE

It appears that Robert and I have been specifically named in PPKO's thread over at Martial Arts Planet. Not sure what that means, but given that I'm not even a member over there, it is kind of neat to see my name tossed around the internet!

In all honesty, though, my name was being tossed around Cyberkwoon a few weeks ago in a not-so-good light by someone who disagreed with my training methodology.

So I guess things are "cosmically balanced" now...

[RRouuselot]

UPDATE

It appears that Robert and I have been specifically named in PPKO's thread over at Martial Arts Planet. Not sure what that means, but given that I'm not even a member over there, it is kind of neat to see my name tossed around the internet!

In all honesty, though, my name was being tossed around Cyberkwoon a few weeks ago in a not-so-good light by someone who disagreed with my training methodology.

So I guess things are "cosmically balanced" now...
Can you post a link to where this thread is on Martial Arts Planet?

[RRouuselot]

UPDATE
In all honesty, though, my name was being tossed around Cyberkwoon a few weeks ago in a not-so-good light by someone who disagreed with my training methodology.
Matt,

There will always be those people that have an issue with people that train sincerely with a pragmatic approach.

[Matt Stone]

I won't rehash the argument... Suffice it to say that there are some folks, even among the hard core MMA crowd, that think occasional falls/throws on concrete (with breakfalls), hardwood floors, etc., sparring without "pillow pads" and other protective gear, and other assorted standards of Yiliquan training are a tad too extreme...

One individual questioned the intelligence of training as hard as we do, and attempted to link the injuries that several of our senior people have with our training (the fact that our injuries predate our training, and that our training is what allows us to cope with our injuries and keep going was lost entirely).

In the end I managed to reach an amicable agreement with the person in question, so everybody is happy and life goes on.

This is the second time I have heard my name mentioned on the internet in a conversation I wasn't part of... Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside!!! LOL :boing2: :boing2:

[Aegis]

Can you post a link to where this thread is on Martial Arts Planet?
Robert: http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15448 gets you to the thread where you and Matt are mentioned by one of our members. I also posted a new perspective, at least from my point of view, which I'll repeat here to ensure that my post has something to offer the site other than just a link


I was out at a ball last night, and probably the most amusing thing there was the comedy hypnotist. He was getting people to do all sorts of really funny stuff, like one guy who he made believe he could do Taekwondo but also that his opponent had a forcefield 2 inches around his body. Results were hilarious.

Why am I mentioning this in a thread on light/no touch knockouts? Well, while I was watching the show, there was a point at which the hypnotist had got everyone into a standing trance and then proceeded to go up to each person, whisper what he was about to do and then lightly touched them, at which point they dropped to the floor in a deep hypnotic state. Later in the show he did a similar trick on a seated candidate (already hynotised) but using an imaginary "hypnosis basketball" rather than actually touching her. These results reminded me very much of the light and no-touch knockouts I've seen, which leads me to believe that these amazing feats are nothing more than a weird form of post-hypnotic suggestion. If this gets on anyone's nerves, I can understand why, but the fact that a stage hypnotist with no obvious martial arts experience can repeat the feats done by martial arts masters using a more plausible explanation makes me think that there is some form of hypnosis going on. This would also explain why these techniques rarely work on people who don't believe or want to believe that the techniques will work....

[RRouuselot]

Thanks for the link:cheers:

Well it seems more than a few folks on Martialtalk, Buoseek, as well as Martial Arts Planet are not buying what ppko is try to sell.
I wonder if that is buy coincidence, happenstance, or just bad plain ol’ bad luck.......... :uhyeah:

[Turbo]

Does anyone here have any of Erle Montaigues Tapes and if so what do you think? Turbo

[Nobody]

Everyone banned dange

[Kreth]

You do realize that you dragged up a 2 1/2 year old thread to make an off-topic comment, right?

[Xana]

I've been looking for a very long time for a teacher of Kyusho Jitsu in or near San Diego. Do you know of any? :roflmao:

[DavidCC]

http://www.kyusho.com/KIdir/CA.htm

[RBaddorf]

David Snyder

11652 Tierra Del Sur,

San Diego, CA 92130

[Xana]

OMG! Thank you SOOOO much! ^_^

[RBaddorf]

Xana,
Did you ever find an instructor? Remember kyusho is only a part of an art. You still need a "delivery system". Kyusho is the bomb, you still need an airplane to get it to the target.