Combat Handguns

[THE BIG EVIL]

What is the best allround Pistol for combat?

[KenpoTex]

a good quality 1911 in .45 acp

[TonyM.]

Bet Sgt. York would agree with that.

[Tgace]

The one you have on you

[KenpoTex]

The one you have on you

Good point, but if I had my "druthers" I'd still prefer a 1911

[Tgace]

Love the 1911 myself...but I may be becoming a Glock convert.

[KenpoTex]

Love the 1911 myself...but I may be becoming a Glock convert.
Glock makes a good weapon although I've heard recently that some of the 21's (full-size .45) are having problems. I would love one of the 36's (single-stack .45) it would make a great concealed-carry/backup.

[Taimishu]

1911 L1a1 .45 Acp

[ipscshooter]

I don't care for Glocks. For me, they don't point as well as a 1911. My preference, a high-cap 1911 clone... I shoot a Para-Ordnance p14-45. You can't beat 17 rounds of .45 acp... :)

[Tgace]

I don't care for Glocks. For me, they don't point as well as a 1911. My preference, a high-cap 1911 clone... I shoot a Para-Ordnance p14-45. You can't beat 17 rounds of .45 acp... :)
Based on your screen name that dosent suprise me...;)

[Baytor]

I don't care for Glocks. For me, they don't point as well as a 1911. My preference, a high-cap 1911 clone... I shoot a Para-Ordnance p14-45. You can't beat 17 rounds of .45 acp... :)
I like Glocks. You can't beat a single well placed head shot. Para makes some nice guns though.

[muaythaifreak]

I'd go with the Glock 22

[yentao]

What is the best allround Pistol for combat?

Colt 45. still great wiht just a few customizing to avoid jamming, it is still rocking. Best when use in one hand. 45. hollow points should be for the ammunition. Sure kill. Or desert eagle :-partyon: .

[yentao]

I'd go with the Glock 22

for ammunition yes but for safety lokcs and measures, not good choice.

[Mark Weiser]

I personally chose the Lightweight Firestar 45 cal pistol.

Easy to conceal and carry and packs the knock down power of the 45 cal round.

Also you need to be trained on how to deal with stovetopping on an automatic. The Sheriff academy did that I attended and the training helped. In a firefight you have to know how to deal with that. Jammed automatic reach up and pull the slide back and eject the bad round and then reacquire the target and fire again.

Sincerely,
Mark E. Weiser

[KenpoTex]

for ammunition yes but for safety lokcs and measures, not good choice.safety-locks??? Oh, you mean suicide devices..."wait 'Mr. home-invader,' I've got to unlock this cable doohickey first, okay, now I'm ready."

[Ronin Moose]

I've been carrying a SIG-SAUER 220 in .45 ACP for nearly 20 years, and it's always been dependable and accurate. Like I told my wife, you can't complain about a piece that has taken care of you for that long! The gun too.

[Mark Weiser]

http://martialtalk.com/forum/images/smilies/rofl.gifGreat LOL LOL!!

[yentao]

safety-locks??? Oh, you mean suicide devices..."wait 'Mr. home-invader,' I've got to unlock this cable doohickey first, okay, now I'm ready."

Ah ok. What I'm trying to say is that glocks don't have durable locks and eventually if you use it often the lock will eventually loose up. Eventually, you could just fire it up without unlocking it. If you know a lot in guns you'll know how important a safety measure is especially with a 45. You know when there are kids at home there is always a chance they get to reach your guns.....
:mp5:

[Stick Dummy]

Anything over .38 caliber, a .40 or .45 Kimber/Glock/ SIG being optimal for this spindley little guy.


Mark,

The newer "Glock-locks" are integral with the hollow backstrap of the grip frame and use a wee-little key.

Fortunately all of mine are pre-key versions. The concept of locking up a pistol when not in use is VERY valid. Especially if you have kids, with friends coming into your home.

For a house gun the newer touch/combo-pad boxes are ideal, or like a close friend of mine does - simply keep the pistol in condition #3 loaded mag/ none in spout - and lock it up, or take it to work in the am BEFORE the kids awake......

I agree with the "one you have on you" comment. It ain't what you got, but how you use it that makes the BIG difference.

[yentao]

I don't bring out guns this days just for home its illegal in my country to take it out. Kids really had a sense of adventure especially boys who can't wait to see a real gun.

[OULobo]

So are we talking combat or personal protection? I'm not sure I'd pick a standard Glock for combat. When I say combat, I mean what the guys in Iraq and Afghanistan are seeing. I know all about the wonders of modern polymers (good strength, less weight, ect.), but I think a tried and true, time tested handgun like a 1911 would be a good choice.

I know I'll catch a little flack for it, but I would say a strong revolver (.357, .44) would be good for ease of use and cleaning in rough terrain, even with the restrictions of capacity. I mean a handgun/sidearm in combat ain't meant for distance shooting and it ain't meant for heavy use. Supposedly, it's an, "Oh, s**t" weapon.

[KenpoTex]

I'm with ya' all the way on the 1911 thing. As far as revolvers go, if you need unquestioned reliabilty then that's the way to go. I have seen photos from as recently as the mid-80's of Navy SEAL's using revolvers because it don't matter if they get wet (and we all know that SEAL's like water :)).


If you know a lot in guns you'll know how important a safety measure is especially with a 45. You know when there are kids at home there is always a chance they get to reach your guns..... I definately agree that safety is important, in fact I'm obsessive about gun-safety, however I believe that safety is based more on the responsibility of the owner than on any lock or device.

[Stick Dummy]

I know people in the M-E carrying just about anything you can think of as far as a sidearm, and or knife.

S.E.A.L.S pretty much carry what they wish, as do a lot of the Spec-Ops folks attached to the various branches of our military.

What does getting wet have to do with reliability? I've fired M-1911's, various revolvers, GLOCKS, S&W's, Rugers, under water and is long as the air is evacuated from the chamber/barrels they fired and functioned.......

I'm just a dumb hillbilly civilian nuffin fancy

[KenpoTex]

What does getting wet have to do with reliability? I've fired M-1911's, various revolvers, GLOCKS, S&W's, Rugers, under water and is long as the air is evacuated from the chamber/barrels they fired and functioned....... I think it probably has to do with the fact that revolvers just don't require as much TLC to keep them firing (fewer places to clean mud and crud out of :))

[punisher73]

I know while reading some books on the SEALS, S&W revolvers were picked in the early 80's because of their reliability of existing guns AT THAT TIME for the conditions they were working in (ie: swimming in the ocean, climbing up an oil platform and shooting).

They later switched to other guns as reliability improved for the adverse conditions.

----

Glock is coming out with a fullsize model .45 that is a slimline also this fall. It was supposed to be sooner but they wanted to push the GAP .45 stuff first. At least this is according to the factory rep.

[Denton Hines]

I like 1911's, I even like the m9, but my personal preference for the ops I've been on was always the model 66 .357 mag. You only get 6 between reloads but with 600+ ft/lbs energy you only need one shot per target. Besides, you only use your sidearm when your mp5, m4, or m590 runs out of ammo.

[sifu nick]

Personally I prefer my H&K USP .45 but at work my life depends on my Beretta 9mm.

[8253]

I like the Glock 22 or 23. They are very dependable weapons, and the .40 cal. rounds are a good intermediate between a 9mm and .45

[AnimEdge]

Whatever you can get a hold of :P

[Silat Student]

AFAIK (SEALS are something of an interest of mine) the S&W snub nosed .357 was used when SEAL Team 6 was getting started. I don't think the gun has much circulation now a days, AFAIK the HK USP is currently preffered.

[Gaidheal]

H&K USP (.40 S&W) is very definitely the current SEAL sidearm. But I agree with the comments on revolvers regarding reliability in adverse weather, ease of battlefield maintenance, etc.I'd take my old favourite, the Browning HP ;¬) Lots of people ***** about 9mm, but by the time you want to be using a SIDEARM they are close enough that you should be shooting accurately for, ideally, one-round kill/disable and I'd rather have more shots... besides, HP is a pretty decent 'dropper'.

John

[gozanryu]

The question was "whats the best hangun for combat" The answer is "a long gun" Here are some tips:
"If you can choose what to bring to a gunfight, bring a long gun, and a friend with a long gun"
"Accuracy is relative:most combat shooting standards will be more dependent on "pucker factor" than the inherent accuracy of the gun"
"Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with itbecause it is empty"

Pistols are always secondary choices in COMBAT, now, if you are actually talking about "whats the best handgun for conceled carry in the unlikely event I might need to use it" scenario. The answer is, the one that you have trained with, and is absolutely reliable>

Thats about 2 cents worth I think. . .

[OULobo]

[QUOTE=gozanryu]The question was "whats the best hangun for combat" The answer is "a long gun"
[QUOTE]
Umm. . . . just a mention, but I believe the question is "what's the best HANDGUN for combat?" Any long gun is by definition not a handgun, right.

[Gaidheal]

You hold it in your hands....... <weg>

[gozanryu]

Thanks for the spelling lesson, my misspelling of "handgun" apparently caused you to miss my point. My point is; HANDGUNS are not good combat weapons. They are always a secondary weapon, and choice in a COMBAT situation. Self defense is another matter. Combat is often a term used to describe self defense situation, inappropriately. Sorry, I'm just a detail monkey that cant spell :)

[Gaidheal]

As one pedant to another... self-defence is definitely combat. Sorry!

If on the other hand you meant specifically military combat, then of course you have a point. Also, although strictly speaking, as I joked above, a rifle is a 'handgun' (you hold it in your hands) that term is generally understood to mean pistols and possibly small carbines, sub-machine guns. The original question pre-supposed, I rather think, that for whatever reason in a [military] combat situation, you were down to having to use a handgun. The question was then, which?

John

[gozanryu]

"whats the best handgun for concealed carry in the unlikely event I might need to use it" scenario. The answer is, the one that you have trained with, and is absolutely reliable"

With that said, the 45 ACP cartridge is a proven winner, the .357 edging it out in one shot stops, so it becomes a search for the most reliable 45 and 357. SInce it is not a good idea to use a modified handgun (talk to a Judge) to shoot someone, we should probably limit the discussion to "stock" out of the box choices. The Sig P220 is a proven performer in this category with thousands of test rounds fired with "0" stopages (jams, stovepipes, failures to feed etc.) The Colt 1911, as a rule (notwithstanding that there are several Tactical aftermarket 1911 clones that are excellent) is not 100% reliable out of the box. Of course the Smith and Wesson 586 or 686 revolver is most likely the MOST reliable and idiot proof of the lot of handguns, but kind of bulky to carry.
A high quality, well "shot in" revolver is the obvious choice for most people, with the auto loading pistols coming in a close second. I think it really comes down to what you like, and therefore, will train with. I prefer the Glock 17 in 9mm, with the right mags it gives me 19 + 1 of Federal 147 Grain Hyra Shock that is accurate and 100% reliable, I dont mind sacraficing a little ultimate "knockdown" power for the slimmer grip, superior magazine capacity, portability and, well, confidence that I have with this Glock, my prior secondary was a Sig 226, and before that, A Browning Hi-power. I really beleive, and have witnessed, that there is no replacement for training and familiarity with a weapon. I have witnessed some VERY deadly shooters with ANCIENT model 10 S&W 38's. I had a very good instructor once say, "just take all the money you spend on pistols and $%^& and Buy a sig and 7 mags, then take the money you saved and spend it on instruction, drill, range time and ammo, you'll live longer" those are words to live by. Practice, Practice, Practice.


But if possible freinds, go with the long gun! :mp5: :ak47: :shotgun: like these guys!

[Gaidheal]

Right on ;¬) Different question to what was asked (as I understood it) but I agree 100% with your comments regarding training and familiarity. I also agree, mostly, with your weapon / calibre choices and reasoning. Especially the Browning HP <weg>

John

P.S. If you have the option, obviously a) don't be there b) if you are, have armed friends c) if you can, use rifles from long range. ;¬)

[Gaidheal]

Incidentally, my personal choice for concealed carry would be the Glock 29 or 20 depending on how small I needed the gun to be for concealment. Sometimes you just can't dress in a way that would conceal a standard size semi-auto and compacts are nice for those scenarios where this is the case but you still want to be armed. I'd go with the 10mm because I think it is unbeatable in this role:

It has a flat trajectory (at SD ranges)
It makes very big holes (at least as big as a .45)
It makes very deep holes (deeper than a .45 usually)
It has excellent range (further than a .45 again...)

Essentially, if I was concerned about penetration (i.e. wanted less because of concerns about passing through a target) I'd go for 9mm or .40S&W. Otherwise I'd go straight to 10mm. If I am in an SD scenario where I need to shoot someone, the above really isn't going to be an issue for me, so for CCW I'd go to a 10mm gun and for me that means Glock.

John

P.S. In fairness, I am in the UK and may not own, much less carry concealed, such a weapon. I admit this freely, lest someone wish to attack my opinions by making an ad hominem attack based on it.

[Stick Dummy]

Gaidheal,

Not a flame or attack, but if you have not shot a 10mm - especially full power loads -be careful what you reccomend................

Your stated parameters look like they came from a gun rag errrr - magazine, and fail to mention muzzle blast, flash, RECOIL, and a few other bits of minutia that have precluded to 10mm.

Like the man said, it ain't what you got, but how you use it that matters the most.

Me I have my eye on a hard chrome. matte blue Browning HP in 40 S&W at the moment. The best of both worlds.

[gozanryu]

With all due respect. 9mm is notorious for over penetration, thats why they developed the 147 grain LEO subsonic rounds. The 10mm is very difficult to handle in the full power, 180 grain loads, thats why they developed the .40, a low power 10. The 10 is balistically superior, but again, you are overpowered, and over recoiled for the job. The 10mm is a fine sub gun round, with good energy out to, and beyond 100 meters, but as a handgun round, its just to much in my experience. (But, if you can make it work, it will definitely work) .45, .40, 9mm or .357 imo

[Gaidheal]

9mm tends to NOT penetrate, unless the round is chosen properly. I believe 147 gr is the FBI preferred load - enough penetration (at least 12" in ballistic gel) to get the job done with a JHP round. The infamous "Silver Tip" rounds and even worse "Glaser" rounds don't penetrate nearly enough to be effective except out of pure luck (or excellent shot placement - right in the eye).

Your point about recommendations is well taken, but I was not actually making one - just commenting on why I like the 10mm. Also, I did not say I have not shot, I said I can't own a weapon to carry here. If I had no shooting experience at all I'd keep my mouth shut LOL!

I too like the look of a .40S&W pistol. I tend to go with the, admittedly simplistic, adage - "Use the biggest calibre you can handle" with the proviso that the gun needs to be small enough to conceal for CCW and also that calibre alone is not enough - must an appropriate load as noted above with the 9mm.

John

[gozanryu]

John, there are photos and film of German soldiers (ww2 era) lining up, shooting, and killing up to 4 people with one 9mm 115 grain bullet. Having seen wound value from small arms fire, I will tell you, 9mm over penetrates, of course not as much in the HP rounds. The glasers are designed specifically not to over penetrate. I agree with your caliber rule, can you imagine how effective a .50 AE would be if it was controllable!

[Gaidheal]

John, there are photos and film of German soldiers (ww2 era) lining up, shooting, and killing up to 4 people with one 9mm 115 grain bullet.
From a rifle or perhaps even a sub-machine-gun, sure. That is all in what I wrote above; long barrel with right powder means very high velocity.. as in 3,000+ fps high. This is not a 'magic' number as such, but it is a useful boundary for such dynamics as "temporary stretch cavity" for instance.


Having seen wound value from small arms fire, I will tell you, 9mm over penetrates, of course not as much in the HP rounds. The glasers are designed specifically not to over penetrate.
Having seen assault rifle fire first-hand (including on a live target) I think you might need to redefine over-penetration for hand-guns. Glasers have been shown to have marginal performance as a round of use for LEO / SD work - this is because they lack sufficient penetration. This doesn't mean that of you shoot someone with such a round you can't incapacitate them, rather it means that you have much less chance compared to rounds with better penetration. All the expansion in the world is pointless if the round doesn't penetrate far enough to damage the right tissue.


I agree with your caliber rule, can you imagine how effective a .50 AE would be if it was controllable!
On paper it is the Holy Grail of ballistics! In practice...

John

[gozanryu]

Kewl, we agree to dissagree. I have seen the 9mm 115 and 124 grain NATO rounds blow through bodies like they were paper, fired from both pistol, and SMG. ANd your right Glasers were a good idea, that doesnt work so good in practice.

[Gaidheal]

We have different experience, leads to different opinions. We can both agree, I am sure, that each shooting has so many factors in it that it is different from any other in at least some way. Possibly we simply have not accounted for something in our respective model which reconciles both experiences. Either way, I know I won't lose sleep over it and I am sure you won't.


ANd your right Glasers were a good idea, that doesnt work so good in practice.

Add to that "And threatens lives because people believe hype and lies" and I agree ;¬)

John

[gozanryu]

What he said :supcool:

[GAB]

Hi All, I have been reading this thread and no one has mentioned the Beretta 92 9mm, is not it the official hand gun of the ARMY etc?

Logistics it is superior weight to the 45 round and with the 223 weighing less then the 308 nato and old 06.

That means you can carry more on a jeep or a man and have more fire power, flater trajectory etc.

I have not been following these threads much same o same o, 45 better etc..The 40 S&W is the round of now and for quite awhile, I think.

Safeties, big concern, CHP carry a S&W for that reason. I think the LEO's are making a mistake going to Glocks.

I know can pull them through just like a revolver.. But the new pistols with the extra saftey and decocks etc. are pretty good for safety. One of the reasons I still like the 1911A1 Government issue. Or the doublstacker(lots of weight) like someone else said, lots of bullets, Astra made a nice little 45, 10 shot I liked, good concelment. But it is not popular because of the military magazine release... No biggie.. I would like a few bucks everytime someone released the mag in a hurry:)

My few cents worth..

Regards, Gary

[Mark Weiser]

I prefer what I carried with the Shawnee County Sheriff Office. The S&W Model 645 45 cal semi-auto with hollow points.

[GAB]

I prefer what I carried with the Shawnee County Sheriff Office. The S&W Model 645 45 cal semi-auto with hollow points.
Hi Mark, I like the S&W's always, not the best trigger pulls, you get used to it, extra slack is a good thing when in a hot spot and put the finger on the trigger.

Regard, Gary

[Mark Weiser]

With the extra slack I was able to have better sight alignment at the range. Therefore have higher qualifing scores. Squeeze off the extra slack inhale then exhale and hold while the front sight goes over the target and just pull the tigger.

This of course you can not do when you have your speed drills. I remember having to take a stryofoam coffee cup and draw a circle around the lip of the cup on a paper target. Stepping back to the 7 yd line. Load your firearm with a magazine of 5 rounds place in your holster and wait for the whistle. When whistle blows you draw weapon and fire all 5 rounds into the circe in 5 seconds for score. I got 4 out of 5 lol!

[GAB]

Hi Mark,
Right, that is the very thing they would teach us when we went to the double action only, S&W Revolver 4" 38spl. Mdl 15-3. They denutted the revolvers so you had no single action.. Very similar triger pull..

Thats a good group, look at it like it is in the sternum and Taps.

I still have my 38 I don't shoot it much, I put a new hammer back into it but kept the 2" with the double action only, I always liked the 2" as a belly gun.

I made a special holster out of deerskin and carried it in my crotch area..I worked vice and if they want to check to see if you are a cop, they will do everything, but if they touch you there. It's a violation, so usually you were ok, scary spot to carry, but better then no protection at all and waiting on back up..

I knew a couple of guys who had stories of accidental mis fire while in there back pocket...LOL now, but then it was serious, no bad injury, but still off for awhile..Pretty embarrasing when coming back to roll call..

Take care, Gary.

[Mark Weiser]

I can see the Report now LOL! Anyways I knew this one redheaded training officer at the academy that said all he carried was a 7 inch knife while under cover. After some experience I had working I figured he was full of BS lol to make an impression on us new recurits.

I used to carry my 357 in an inside waist holster while off duty while with the Sedgwick County SO. Never got into Vice or Plain Clothes work the Reserves never got that chance too much risk I think for volunteers. The closet I got to Plain Clothes work was working Admin in the Reserve Office wearing a suit LOL!

I tell people that I knew I was in deep dodo when the very first clothing issue they handed us was a Threat Level IIA vest lol!

[Vanilla Heath-Bar Crunch]

Before anyone discounts the 1911 (I read earlier that someone may be becoming a Glock convert?) check out the Para Ordinance line of light double action .45s in the 1911 style.

If I ever get the job I went to college to be, I may opt for concealed carry and I have fallen in love with the Para CCW. Check it out.

[KenpoTex]

Before anyone discounts the 1911 (I read earlier that someone may be becoming a Glock convert?) check out the Para Ordinance line of light double action .45s in the 1911 style.I mentioned in another thread that I was (and am) considering a Glock, however that does not mean that I will ever be swayed in my devotion to Mr. Browning's "divinely inspired" design. :D

[Vanilla Heath-Bar Crunch]

Excellent.

Personally I think that concealed handguns are a false sense of security inmany, if not most cases. This is of course a debate for another time. However in the (rare) proper situation the right handgun can be invaluable.

I saw te Beretta 92 mentioned. Personally I cant stand this weapon. It is large hand grip designed for those staggere magazines, is clunky and I feel like I am holding onto a 2x4 rather than a handgun. That is why I prefer the 1911. Nothing fits my hand like a 1911. The Para hi-cap's suck even more in this respect for me, but the single stacks fit my hands likea dream.

As far as the trajectory and all that of specific rounds, I dont plan on ever shooting at a person who is much more than 7-10 yards away... and even that is pushing it. Most homes do not have rooms this size. So my line of thinking is who cares how much better a 9mm or even a .40 will travel over distance, when I want to put the guy standing right in front of me on his back?

1911 baby. .45 ACP--maybe auto port it, I am not looking for a "quiet" kill. If I can successfully draw a weapon I mean to discharge, I dont care who hears it. I dont expect to need a second shot, and that little bit of edge can make a world of difference. I miss the black talons too. :)

PEace

Craig

[RRouuselot]

......

1911 baby. .45 ACP--maybe auto port it, I am not looking for a "quiet" kill. If I can successfully draw a weapon I mean to discharge, I dont care who hears it. I dont expect to need a second shot, and that little bit of edge can make a world of difference. I miss the black talons too. :)

PEace

Craig


Have you ever tried a Glock .45.......same amount of fun but shoots a bit smoother and tends to be better over distance.
Or maybe a .45 Colt Commander with an action job........

[Vanilla Heath-Bar Crunch]

What kind of action job?

I found the Para LDA line to have an excellent action. Porting isnt a need by any means, but have you tried one of these little hand-cannons? the trigger pull is incredible--a very different feel from the old-school 1911 slide trigger.

[gozanryu]

You dont need the Black Talons in the .45, the Speer lawman HP's are fine, besides, if you need a badass >45 round, Remington still makes the +P 185 gr. JHP's!

[KenpoTex]

You can still get Black Talons, Winchester just changed the name to "Ranger SXT" to get around all the whining and B***ing from the brady bunch. Of course, in a .45, I don't have a problem using regular ol' ball ammo due to the lower velocities. I use Hydra-Shoks in my .357.

[Rynocerous]

Desert Eagle .50 errr, ummm, maybe not the best combat firearm, but cool nontheless.


Cheers,

Ryan

["Mad Man" Gene]

What is the best allround Pistol for combat?
Combat handguns differ in preference like cars. I agree that the best one is the one you are carrying. A combat handgun is not a combat competition gun. It rides in a secure holster, comes out with familiar ease and muscle memory and hits its aggressive target. The gun is the smaller half of the deadly weapon, the shooter is the larger half.

I carried a Glock 20 (10mm) for 16 yrs and recently changed over to a H&K USP .45. I've never been a .45 fan, that is until Speer came out with a 200 grain jhp that has a 1150 feet per second velocity. I took that H&K out of the box and fired the most accurate handgun I've yet used. Its big, but still fits my hand well. Concealment of a bigger handgun is a clothing issue easliy solved. Its reliable and hits what I point it at. It hits it hard. I like the H&K for its complete reliability in function, never a misfed round.

Opinions on calibers and guns is always a lively arguement. There are those who like big rounds (10 mm/.40 / .45), but they tend to be slow (10 mm excluded). There are those who like fast rounds (.357/.357 Sig/9mm/10mm) for the energy, but the lack of bullet mass reduces one hit stopping. I like big and fast, best of both worlds.