Controlling a weapon

[MJS]

Well, here is another thread that I'm sure will cause some trouble!! :)

I recently got the new BB magazine in the mail. In it, there was an article featuring a TKD instructor. Didnt really read the article fully, but I did notice the picture that was shown. The 'attacker' had a club and was doing an overhead strike. The 'defender', obviously a TKD inst. was stepping to the side as the strike came down, and did a roundhouse kick to the midsection. That was it!!! End of tech.!!! I'm looking at this in shock, because IMO, that was a VERY poor example of a club defense. To think that a roundhouse kick with no controlling of the weapon would actually work in a real situation is crazy. I'm not sure about anyone else, but I was taught and still am taught, to get control of that weapon!!! Why rely on a kick to end it?? Unless that kick totally takes the guy out of the fight, that pretty much did nothing but make him madder.

Any thoughts??

Mike

[Cthulhu]

I think the problem is that many systems teach weapon 'defenses', but since they don't actually train how to use the weapons in question, they don't really know what a person can do with them.

On the other side of the coin, they are probably not training to deal w/ someone who has more than half a clue in terms of how to use said weapons. Still, it's a dangerous practice, in my opinion.

Cthulhu

[tshadowchaser]

Controling the weapon may not be possible in all situations. I would recommend trying to control it if possible.
A kick to the knee would (IMHO) have been much better. Following up with others techniques would seem the best course of action

[MJS]

Controling the weapon may not be possible in all situations. I would recommend trying to control it if possible.
A kick to the knee would (IMHO) have been much better. Following up with others techniques would seem the best course of action

Good point. I would think that a kick to the knee would get a greater effect than a snappy roundhouse to the stomach.

Mike

[Thesemindz]

This was taken directly off of the Kenponet written curiculum.



Checking the Storm (Front- Right Step-Through Overhead Club)
[video]- (576kb)

1. An attacker from 12 o'clock comes at you with an overhead club swing.

2. Step your right foot to 3 o'clock as you execute a right inward parry. Pull your left foot to your right into a cat stance as you execute a left extended outward open hand block to check against any possible roundhouse club return strike.

Grafting Flow
Thrusting Salute
Calming the Storm
Defying the Storm
3. Immediately execute a left front snap kick to your attacker's groin. Land towards 10 o'clock into a twist stance so your right foot is aligned for the next kick.
Grafting Flow
End of Circling Fans
End of Fatal Deviation
Triggered Salute
Five Swords
Defying the Storm
End of Circling Wing
4. Execute a right step-through knife edge kick to the inside of your attacker's right knee. (This should take them down.)
5. Plant your right foot to 10 o'clock in a right neutral bow as you execute a right horizontal backfist to your attacker's face. Note: Execute this strike by pulling your right hand from under your left.




Now, I only post this to say that in Kenpo we also practice some weapons defenses that do not include weapon control. In fact, this technique is very similar to the one you described, in that we step off angle of an overhead club attack and then kick the guy. Of course, any experienced practitioner is going to grab the weapon and either immobilize it, remove it from the environment, or take it away. Maybe this happens before the kicks, maybe after. In this situation, I could maybe see stepping out of the way of the swing, quickly firing a few kicks in to stun my opponent, and then grabbing that weapon. It isn't really a step by step procedure, these things would happen almost simultaneously, although more or less in that order.

Now, it is fair to point out that while the TKD practitioner was kicking the body, which is almost certaintly a by product of the sport mentality, the Kenpo practitioner kicks the knee and groin. We also end the technique by moving in on the opponent, putting us in position to control the weapon.

Maybe the TKD guy was just showing step one. Clearly, if the fight doesn't end there, he will have to "suffix" that technique.


-Rob

[Touch Of Death]

Well, here is another thread that I'm sure will cause some trouble!! :)

I recently got the new BB magazine in the mail. In it, there was an article featuring a TKD instructor. Didnt really read the article fully, but I did notice the picture that was shown. The 'attacker' had a club and was doing an overhead strike. The 'defender', obviously a TKD inst. was stepping to the side as the strike came down, and did a roundhouse kick to the midsection. That was it!!! End of tech.!!! I'm looking at this in shock, because IMO, that was a VERY poor example of a club defense. To think that a roundhouse kick with no controlling of the weapon would actually work in a real situation is crazy. I'm not sure about anyone else, but I was taught and still am taught, to get control of that weapon!!! Why rely on a kick to end it?? Unless that kick totally takes the guy out of the fight, that pretty much did nothing but make him madder.

Any thoughts??

MikeIt could happen. Why spend time controling the weapon if you have to pull your foot out of your opponent's mid section? Say a cowboy boot with any real force could allow you to seek cover or deal with an even more pressing situation. :asian:

[7starmantis]

I would say controlling the weapon would be something to go for, but is not always a must. If you don't have control of the weapon however, you better be in the process of ending it and getting out of reach pretty quickly.

JMO,
7sm

[MichiganTKD]

Two points I would like to make here:

1. Unless the attacker catches me by surprise and I have to block with my arms or hands to keep from getting hit, I would much rather keep him at the distance of my longest extremities-my feet-rather than allow him to break into my space so that I can attempt to control his weapon with my hands. Damn right I'm going to stop him with kicking technique before I allow him to get that close. My first reaction is to maintain distance or sidestep. My second reaction is to break his ribs with a side kick.

2. I get the feeling that the TKD students demonstrating in the magazine are probably sport oriented, and are trying to show "real life" application of sport footwork and sport kicking. Unfortunately, if you primarily practice sport style, you may know the physical technique but your power and mindset will be totally different than a traditionalist who does practice to defend himself.

I can show and teach sport style, but I primarily practice and teach TKD technique to make power and allow you to defend yourself.

[MJS]

This was taken directly off of the Kenponet written curiculum.



Checking the Storm (Front- Right Step-Through Overhead Club)
[video]- (576kb)

1. An attacker from 12 o'clock comes at you with an overhead club swing.

2. Step your right foot to 3 o'clock as you execute a right inward parry. Pull your left foot to your right into a cat stance as you execute a left extended outward open hand block to check against any possible roundhouse club return strike.

Grafting Flow
Thrusting Salute
Calming the Storm
Defying the Storm
3. Immediately execute a left front snap kick to your attacker's groin. Land towards 10 o'clock into a twist stance so your right foot is aligned for the next kick.
Grafting Flow
End of Circling Fans
End of Fatal Deviation
Triggered Salute
Five Swords
Defying the Storm
End of Circling Wing
4. Execute a right step-through knife edge kick to the inside of your attacker's right knee. (This should take them down.)
5. Plant your right foot to 10 o'clock in a right neutral bow as you execute a right horizontal backfist to your attacker's face. Note: Execute this strike by pulling your right hand from under your left.




Now, I only post this to say that in Kenpo we also practice some weapons defenses that do not include weapon control. In fact, this technique is very similar to the one you described, in that we step off angle of an overhead club attack and then kick the guy. Of course, any experienced practitioner is going to grab the weapon and either immobilize it, remove it from the environment, or take it away. Maybe this happens before the kicks, maybe after. In this situation, I could maybe see stepping out of the way of the swing, quickly firing a few kicks in to stun my opponent, and then grabbing that weapon. It isn't really a step by step procedure, these things would happen almost simultaneously, although more or less in that order.

Now, it is fair to point out that while the TKD practitioner was kicking the body, which is almost certaintly a by product of the sport mentality, the Kenpo practitioner kicks the knee and groin. We also end the technique by moving in on the opponent, putting us in position to control the weapon.

Maybe the TKD guy was just showing step one. Clearly, if the fight doesn't end there, he will have to "suffix" that technique.


-Rob

After looking at the picture again, I noticed that there is no checking done on the weapon at all. At least with the Kenpo techs. checking is a big part. In addition, the kicks are going to targets that are going to get a much better reaction.

Mike

[MJS]

It could happen. Why spend time controling the weapon if you have to pull your foot out of your opponent's mid section? Say a cowboy boot with any real force could allow you to seek cover or deal with an even more pressing situation. :asian:

And you're gonna rely solely on that kick?? Why spend time controlling the weapon?? Well, you need to take into consideration a follow up swing for one. I've been training in the FMA for 6yrs, and we're always taught to keep control of that weapon. Would you not keep or get control of a knife before doing a counter??? Nice way to get cut up if you dont.

Mike

[MJS]

Two points I would like to make here:

1. Unless the attacker catches me by surprise and I have to block with my arms or hands to keep from getting hit, I would much rather keep him at the distance of my longest extremities-my feet-rather than allow him to break into my space so that I can attempt to control his weapon with my hands. Damn right I'm going to stop him with kicking technique before I allow him to get that close. My first reaction is to maintain distance or sidestep. My second reaction is to break his ribs with a side kick.

2. I get the feeling that the TKD students demonstrating in the magazine are probably sport oriented, and are trying to show "real life" application of sport footwork and sport kicking. Unfortunately, if you primarily practice sport style, you may know the physical technique but your power and mindset will be totally different than a traditionalist who does practice to defend himself.

I can show and teach sport style, but I primarily practice and teach TKD technique to make power and allow you to defend yourself.

Keep him at a distance with your kicks??? Yeah, ok! :rolleyes: And when you go to extend that fancy kick, you're extending a nice target to get hit or cut. This isnt a Van Dam movie we're talking about here!

Mike

[MJS]

Thesemindz- Here are a few techs. where control is gained.

Evading the Storm
Calming the Storm
Obstructing the Storm
Defying the Storm

In all of those, a check/method of control is used. In Checking the Storm, the hands are up as a check for the return swing of the club. The tech. in the magazine had the defender side stepping and kicking. No check/method of control was exercised.

Mike

[bluenosekenpo]

hhmmmm, very interesting topic. what is the reality of the situation? you have a 30" stick at the end of a 25" arm! taking in to account the grip you'd still have a 50" reach! the average good guy has a 34" inseam? who is going to have the better long range weapon? i'd bet on the guy with the wood.

aside from this s/d example there has always been a problem with stick defencive techniques, IMHO. i have recently started teaching myself FMA stickfighting, (unfortunately the closest school is ~1000km away), and have come to the realization(i may be wrong), that you must get in close(trapping range) before he commences the swing (stop hit)! then hit targets of opportunity, eyes,knees,whatever. i believe it's not a matter of the knee being the correct target, or eyes, but you should go in and destroy everything you come in contact with, but get in close and attack.

if you've never practiced with wood, you're missing out on a truely enlightening aspect of the martial arts. it will quickly demonstrate the folly of certain techniques, and how difficult a stick defence really is. i pactice with the assumption that the guy i'd be up against is as good as or better than me (not meant as a boast). it then follows that you must disrupt his flow by getting in close, stop or check the swing, elbows, finger strikes, knees, fists, headbutt, attack,attack,attack and do not let up until he's on the ground and you have the stick. this is all my opinion only, i'm not trying to knock anyones style and i am very open to suggestions or demonstrations of flaws in my logic. that's it, train like a tiger.

[Zoran]

IMO, control is the second most important part of weapons defense. First being the block or evasion.

The importance on controlling a club attack may not be as high as other weapons defense. Usually a club needs a certain amount of distance for it to generate decent power or kinetic energy (unless the person is trained to use a club in tight quarters). So making sure that you jam in will help a great deal on club defense.

While taking control, what should follow immediately is an attack on a vital target. Preferably a strike to the eyes or throat. Kicks are okay only if you are using it as an extension to closing the distance to get to one of those vitals.

If we start talking about knife or handgun defense, control becomes much more important as neither weapon needs a great deal of distance or kinetic energy to be effective.

[MJS]

IMO, control is the second most important part of weapons defense. First being the block or evasion.

True. I guess when I was talking about the control, I was in a way, combining the block with the control.


The importance on controlling a club attack may not be as high as other weapons defense. Usually a club needs a certain amount of distance for it to generate decent power or kinetic energy (unless the person is trained to use a club in tight quarters). So making sure that you jam in will help a great deal on club defense.

While taking control, what should follow immediately is an attack on a vital target. Preferably a strike to the eyes or throat. Kicks are okay only if you are using it as an extension to closing the distance to get to one of those vitals.

Agreed! When dealing with a club, it should be stopped no later than half way. Anything further than that, you're putting yourself closer to the tip of the stick, where the most power is going to be.


If we start talking about knife or handgun defense, control becomes much more important as neither weapon needs a great deal of distance or kinetic energy to be effective.

Agreed again. Especially with the knife, you'll want to gain that control ASAP.

Mike

[MJS]

hhmmmm, very interesting topic. what is the reality of the situation? you have a 30" stick at the end of a 25" arm! taking in to account the grip you'd still have a 50" reach! the average good guy has a 34" inseam? who is going to have the better long range weapon? i'd bet on the guy with the wood.

Good points. The stick is dangerous enough, but in the hands of someone who can use it.....the danger level just rose greatly.


aside from this s/d example there has always been a problem with stick defencive techniques, IMHO. i have recently started teaching myself FMA stickfighting, (unfortunately the closest school is ~1000km away), and have come to the realization(i may be wrong), that you must get in close(trapping range) before he commences the swing (stop hit)! then hit targets of opportunity, eyes,knees,whatever. i believe it's not a matter of the knee being the correct target, or eyes, but you should go in and destroy everything you come in contact with, but get in close and attack.

First off, congrats. on your entering into the FMA world!!! Its truly an excellent art, and IMO, I havent seen any other martial art that addresses the stick and knife like the Filipinos do!! You are correct when you mentioned stopping the swing as soon as you can. The most power is at the tip. As for the targets....correct again. That hand is the first thing coming at you, so why not take advantage of destroying it!!! I only said the knee was a better target, due to the fact, that you'll stand a better chance of hurting the guy by taking his knee, rather than kicking him in the stomach.


if you've never practiced with wood, you're missing out on a truely enlightening aspect of the martial arts. it will quickly demonstrate the folly of certain techniques, and how difficult a stick defence really is. i pactice with the assumption that the guy i'd be up against is as good as or better than me (not meant as a boast). it then follows that you must disrupt his flow by getting in close, stop or check the swing, elbows, finger strikes, knees, fists, headbutt, attack,attack,attack and do not let up until he's on the ground and you have the stick. this is all my opinion only, i'm not trying to knock anyones style and i am very open to suggestions or demonstrations of flaws in my logic. that's it, train like a tiger.

As I said before..the FMA are AWESOME!!! So much to learn and everything blends together very well. You are definately on the right path with your thinking!!! :asian: You're definately studying a VERY good art!!

Mike

[Thesemindz]

Thesemindz- Here are a few techs. where control is gained.

Evading the Storm
Calming the Storm
Obstructing the Storm
Defying the Storm

In all of those, a check/method of control is used. In Checking the Storm, the hands are up as a check for the return swing of the club. The tech. in the magazine had the defender side stepping and kicking. No check/method of control was exercised.

Mike


That's why I said we do some club defenses without controlling portions. I see Checking the Storm as a less preferrable, but possibly necessary, club defense option.


-Rob

[MichiganTKD]

Better to kepp him at a distance with kicking than to get into a wrestling match with a guy holding a knife or club! I'm not talking about a Van Damme movie, I'm talking about using my longest weapons to keep him from contacting me. You think Tae Kwon Do wouldn't work in these situations? More to the point, you think BJJ or grappling is the best method? Why in the world would I grapple with an armed assailant?
Using basic and to-the-point TKD technique is just as effective at keeping someone away as anything else. I'm not talking about scoring points, I'm talking about using power and direct contact.
BTW, I've known guys who used TKD in these situations and they came out just fine.

[Rich Parsons]

Two points I would like to make here:

1. Unless the attacker catches me by surprise and I have to block with my arms or hands to keep from getting hit, I would much rather keep him at the distance of my longest extremities-my feet-rather than allow him to break into my space so that I can attempt to control his weapon with my hands. Damn right I'm going to stop him with kicking technique before I allow him to get that close. My first reaction is to maintain distance or sidestep. My second reaction is to break his ribs with a side kick.

2. I get the feeling that the TKD students demonstrating in the magazine are probably sport oriented, and are trying to show "real life" application of sport footwork and sport kicking. Unfortunately, if you primarily practice sport style, you may know the physical technique but your power and mindset will be totally different than a traditionalist who does practice to defend himself.

I can show and teach sport style, but I primarily practice and teach TKD technique to make power and allow you to defend yourself.

And as a person who trains weapons and kicks, I offer this to you. What if the attacker pulls the strike and hits your shin or ankle?

The idea of controlling the weapon is such that this allows you to more readily attack the bad guy.

I agree that it is nsot always manditory to contol the weapon. I just think your odds increase if you do.
:asian:

[MichiganTKD]

Additionally, our GM practiced TKD in Korea at a time when gang warfare was rampant. He had to use TKD often to defend against attackers, unarmed and armed. You can't tell me it doesn't work.

[Rich Parsons]

Better to kepp him at a distance with kicking than to get into a wrestling match with a guy holding a knife or club! I'm not talking about a Van Damme movie, I'm talking about using my longest weapons to keep him from contacting me. You think Tae Kwon Do wouldn't work in these situations? More to the point, you think BJJ or grappling is the best method? Why in the world would I grapple with an armed assailant?
Using basic and to-the-point TKD technique is just as effective at keeping someone away as anything else. I'm not talking about scoring points, I'm talking about using power and direct contact.
BTW, I've known guys who used TKD in these situations and they came out just fine.

I would not grapple with an armed bad guy anymore than I would try to kick him.
:asian:

[MichiganTKD]

I think ultimately, the best solution is to use whatever style you practice as a guide to what you do. Learn its strengths, weaknesses, and how to get around them. Practice until your response is automatic. The problem I have with MMA is that they try to cover all bases in an attempt to to try to ensure they have no weaknesses. Actually I have more problems with MMA than that, but I won't go into it. Their mentality is that by giving yourself many options, you will stand a greater chance in a real confrontation. However, studies have shown that when you have too many options, you literally become overwhelmed by choice. Personally, I favor limiting your options but making your response ingrained so that in the event of a situation, your body and mind know instinctively what they will do, and your actions will be automatic. Put another way, a dedicated aikido, judo, wing chun, grappling, or tae kwon do student who practices diligently can be victorious because their technique will be automatic.
And to answer Mr. Parson's question about the attacker pulling his technique and cuuting my leg or ankle, you must train yourself to watch eyes and be aware of your opponent's movements. If you do this it will easier for you to catch him trying to pull his technique and you will be more able to compensate if he does.

[8253]

either control the weapon or cripple the opponent, just a kick to the midsection is a joke, its just going to get you hit harder.

[MichiganTKD]

In our Dojang there used to hang a sign that read, in Korean, "One Time Offense". That meant you practiced your technique to develop enough speed, accuracy, timing, and penetrating force that there was no need for a second technique. Much like the karate "one strike, one kill" philosophy. When I say side kick to the ribs, I mean a side kick executed with so much speed, power, and force that it destroys your opponent. I don't believe in overwhelming your opponent with combinations, I believe in being able to do one technique so forcefully that, no matter you hit, he has no chance.

[bluenosekenpo]

with respect
i ask,
what if you miss?
:asian:

[MichiganTKD]

Well, keep in mind, this is what we aim for. It doesn't always mean you will be successful. If you miss, I think there is a window of opportunity where you are allowed to recover and execute a second technique. However, that window gets smaller and smaller as more time elapses, and your opponent's potential for victory higher and higher. So if you miss, you must immediately follow through with another technique to keep him off balance, realizing that if you miss again, your chance for winning is getting smaller.

[Bod]

A good friend of mine (about 14 years old at the time) who had done judo for one school term shoulder threw a boy who attacked him with a lump of 2 by 2 wood. He was a bit shocked after it happened.

There is nothing wrong with wrestling a guy with a big stick if you know how to wrestle and he he is not an expert with the stick. A guy with a knife, expert or not, is another matter.

[MJS]

Better to kepp him at a distance with kicking than to get into a wrestling match with a guy holding a knife or club! I'm not talking about a Van Damme movie, I'm talking about using my longest weapons to keep him from contacting me. You think Tae Kwon Do wouldn't work in these situations? More to the point, you think BJJ or grappling is the best method? Why in the world would I grapple with an armed assailant?
Using basic and to-the-point TKD technique is just as effective at keeping someone away as anything else. I'm not talking about scoring points, I'm talking about using power and direct contact.
BTW, I've known guys who used TKD in these situations and they came out just fine.

Personally, I think you need to come back to reality and get off Fantasy Island!! Like Rich said...you try your fancy TKD kicks against someone with a weapon, and I can assure you that the first thing that'll get hit will be whatever it is that is coming.

In addition, closing the gap, would be a much better option than trying to throw a kick. Come on man!! Sure, they can still use the butt end of the stick, but you're not going to be taking a full swing as if you were standing back and trying to kick.

Like I said...I'm talking about real SD, not a movie with fancy TKD kicks!!! :boing2:

Mike

[MJS]

Additionally, our GM practiced TKD in Korea at a time when gang warfare was rampant. He had to use TKD often to defend against attackers, unarmed and armed. You can't tell me it doesn't work.

Obviously his attackers were not any good. Try that against someone really trying to attack you, and you'll see a big difference.

Mike

[MJS]

In our Dojang there used to hang a sign that read, in Korean, "One Time Offense". That meant you practiced your technique to develop enough speed, accuracy, timing, and penetrating force that there was no need for a second technique. Much like the karate "one strike, one kill" philosophy. When I say side kick to the ribs, I mean a side kick executed with so much speed, power, and force that it destroys your opponent. I don't believe in overwhelming your opponent with combinations, I believe in being able to do one technique so forcefully that, no matter you hit, he has no chance.

Yeah, ok. :rolleyes: Again, come off Fantasy Island. You're really going to rely on that 1 kick to save you??? :boing2:

Mike

[MJS]

Well, keep in mind, this is what we aim for. It doesn't always mean you will be successful. If you miss, I think there is a window of opportunity where you are allowed to recover and execute a second technique. However, that window gets smaller and smaller as more time elapses, and your opponent's potential for victory higher and higher. So if you miss, you must immediately follow through with another technique to keep him off balance, realizing that if you miss again, your chance for winning is getting smaller.

That club is going to be just a little bit faster than your kick. If you miss???? Yeah, if you miss, you're gonna be screwed.

Mike

[MJS]

You think Tae Kwon Do wouldn't work in these situations?

Not if you're going to try and kick.


More to the point, you think BJJ or grappling is the best method?

Its better to clinch. You're not going to take the full power swing compared to try to kick.


Why in the world would I grapple with an armed assailant?

Why in the world would I kick an armed assailant??? :idunno:

Mike

[MJS]

I think ultimately, the best solution is to use whatever style you practice as a guide to what you do. Learn its strengths, weaknesses, and how to get around them. Practice until your response is automatic. The problem I have with MMA is that they try to cover all bases in an attempt to to try to ensure they have no weaknesses. Actually I have more problems with MMA than that, but I won't go into it. Their mentality is that by giving yourself many options, you will stand a greater chance in a real confrontation.

So, let me get this straight. If you have too many options, you wont do good, but the fewer you have the better you'll do???? :rolleyes: Ummm...If you're not familiar with a certain range of fighting, you wont have any options at all to choose from, and you'll be lost as to what to do!


However, studies have shown that when you have too many options, you literally become overwhelmed by choice.

And you got this info from????????? Maybe that is in your case, but I wouldnt say thats the case with everyone.


And to answer Mr. Parson's question about the attacker pulling his technique and cuuting my leg or ankle, you must train yourself to watch eyes and be aware of your opponent's movements. If you do this it will easier for you to catch him trying to pull his technique and you will be more able to compensate if he does.

And as soon as you throw that kick, THAT will be his target!!! Try sparring someone armed with a weapon, who is REALLY trying to hit you.

Mike

[loki09789]

If this is going to go the way of 'bestest' art argument....I don't want to play.

Generally speaking, if you have devoted your years of training to TKD, every situation will be solved with a hard blocking, power kicking type of response. Is this because it is the 'bestest' way or is it because you have only learned to master your kicking/blocking techniques in this way and are confident because you can deliver this technique with good timing, power..... because of said training? Plug in any art and the question is still the same. Doesn't make any art better than any other, just different. How you pull it off is what makes you better, not the art.

There is no "bestest" artistic/technical response. There is only what you have in your tool box that you can pick from. If the "Bestest" response to the club wielder is to run, I will. If it is to kick, I will..... If it is to kiss him full on the lips before he can recover from his hollywood style wind up before the strike to break his concentration and escape - I will..... well it would have to be pretty dire for that.

I think folks are confusing "bestest" with "what I know I can do because I have trained hard in it." I have taken TKD from guys who can make it work on the street. I have taken FMA/Kenpo and midrange arts that combine hand, stand up grappling and kicking arts who can make that work on the streets - because they train dilligently and are pros....

Can't really argue "Bestest" because the situation is too vague, and TKD folks don't have the level of artistic sophistication with a weapon that an FMA'er would have and vice versa with the kicking stuff....

I guess my point is, checking or controlling the weapon is a good idea if you know how to do it. If you don't practice it, do what you know and pray for the best. Even if control/checking techniques are in your toolbox, they are generally taught as 'clearing the zone that the weapon will pass through motions' more than pinpoint 'grab/control the weapon' motions. So sometimes it is a control or check and sometimes the same motion becomes nothing at all and other times it turns into an in between strike.... I guess it just depends.

In reality if it was only a matter of the 'bestest' art deal, a program that trained reality street defense skills other than just the hitting part would be good and it would have a force continuum repetoire that went from tactical/defensive firearms instruction all the way down to verbal judo and run away applications. I don't think 'bestest' is the only reason people train.

[MJS]

If this is going to go the way of 'bestest' art argument....I don't want to play.

Actually, when I started this thread, I was hoping as well, that it didnt turn into that.


Generally speaking, if you have devoted your years of training to TKD, every situation will be solved with a hard blocking, power kicking type of response. Is this because it is the 'bestest' way or is it because you have only learned to master your kicking/blocking techniques in this way and are confident because you can deliver this technique with good timing, power..... because of said training? Plug in any art and the question is still the same. Doesn't make any art better than any other, just different. How you pull it off is what makes you better, not the art.

Agreed! No matter what art, I certainly would hope that everything would be done with power.


There is no "bestest" artistic/technical response. There is only what you have in your tool box that you can pick from.

True. Thats one of the reasons I crosstrain, especially in the FMA. For one, I dont want to limit myself to certain options. I want a wide variety of things to choose from. Second, the FMA is the best art to take if you really want to address weapons. The stick and the knife have been a part, and still are a part of the Filipino culture. Who better to learn from, than from someone who always trains with those weapons?



Can't really argue "Bestest" because the situation is too vague, and TKD folks don't have the level of artistic sophistication with a weapon that an FMA'er would have and vice versa with the kicking stuff....

Good point!


I guess my point is, checking or controlling the weapon is a good idea if you know how to do it. If you don't practice it, do what you know and pray for the best. Even if control/checking techniques are in your toolbox, they are generally taught as 'clearing the zone that the weapon will pass through motions' more than pinpoint 'grab/control the weapon' motions. So sometimes it is a control or check and sometimes the same motion becomes nothing at all and other times it turns into an in between strike.... I guess it just depends.

You're right. If you dont know what to do, then I guess you can only pray and hope. However, if I didnt know what to do, I'd do my best to learn what to do. Again, why limit yourself to only 1 option when there are so many to pick from.

Thanks for the reply.

Mike

[loki09789]

Actually, when I started this thread, I was hoping as well, that it didnt turn into that.

Agreed! No matter what art, I certainly would hope that everything would be done with power.

True. Thats one of the reasons I crosstrain, especially in the FMA. For one, I dont want to limit myself to certain options. I want a wide variety of things to choose from. Second, the FMA is the best art to take if you really want to address weapons. The stick and the knife have been a part, and still are a part of the Filipino culture. Who better to learn from, than from someone who always trains with those weapons?

Good point!

You're right. If you dont know what to do, then I guess you can only pray and hope. However, if I didnt know what to do, I'd do my best to learn what to do. Again, why limit yourself to only 1 option when there are so many to pick from.

Thanks for the reply.

Mike
Kenpo/FMA's tend to be more inclusive than exclusive about finding what works. Either your exposure to the 'practical' model has affected your mentallity or you chose this model because of your mentallity. Either way, this approach is application focused whereas TKD and other more systematic arts are tradition focused. The benefit of the TKD type of training is that you learn to make something work because of determination and work ethic. It may take longer because you are forcing yourself into a technique/system, but it will work like clock... work (that was bad) when you do master it. Chicken or the egg type of mentallities.

[MJS]

Kenpo/FMA's tend to be more inclusive than exclusive about finding what works. Either your exposure to the 'practical' model has affected your mentallity or you chose this model because of your mentallity.

My exposure to the practical model came from my first BJJ instructor, who also had trained in a few different arts, a few of them being FMA. Through him, I was fortunate to find a few other instructors, who I attribute that thinking to.


Either way, this approach is application focused whereas TKD and other more systematic arts are tradition focused. The benefit of the TKD type of training is that you learn to make something work because of determination and work ethic. It may take longer because you are forcing yourself into a technique/system, but it will work like clock... work (that was bad) when you do master it. Chicken or the egg type of mentallities.

Another good point. The unfortunate thing is that many arts rely too heavily on that tradition aspect. Its almost like they are caught in the past, while thinking that the trad. methods that have worked back then, will still work today. Just like cars, medicine, and computers, they have all evolved and have become much better. Its a shame that those trad. arts dont seem as motivated to do so.

Mike

[Cruentus]

Haven't read the whole thread, or seen the article for that matter, but here are some ideas...

The attacker is the weapon, and whatever is in his hand is the tool. He is the one who can hurt me, not the tool by itself. So he is my biggest concern.

On that note, what is the focus of his attack? What is my greatest source of danger? If it is hitting me with a club or stabbing me with a knife, then unabling his ability to do so is my concern. How can this be achieved? I may need to control his weapon, but, if i pop him a few times, or pick something up and take him out with it, then his tool is no longer a concern of mine.

Coming from a FMA background, I know methods to control someones weapon. However, my concern is with the attacker, not the tool.

That being said, a 1-strike answer may work, but should not be relied on, as it may not take care of the problem, which is that attacker.

Just food for thought.

[Rich Parsons]

If this is going to go the way of 'bestest' art argument....I don't want to play.

Generally speaking, if you have devoted your years of training to TKD, every situation will be solved with a hard blocking, power kicking type of response. Is this because it is the 'bestest' way or is it because you have only learned to master your kicking/blocking techniques in this way and are confident because you can deliver this technique with good timing, power..... because of said training? Plug in any art and the question is still the same. Doesn't make any art better than any other, just different. How you pull it off is what makes you better, not the art.

There is no "bestest" artistic/technical response. There is only what you have in your tool box that you can pick from. If the "Bestest" response to the club wielder is to run, I will. If it is to kick, I will..... If it is to kiss him full on the lips before he can recover from his hollywood style wind up before the strike to break his concentration and escape - I will..... well it would have to be pretty dire for that.

I think folks are confusing "bestest" with "what I know I can do because I have trained hard in it." I have taken TKD from guys who can make it work on the street. I have taken FMA/Kenpo and midrange arts that combine hand, stand up grappling and kicking arts who can make that work on the streets - because they train dilligently and are pros....

Can't really argue "Bestest" because the situation is too vague, and TKD folks don't have the level of artistic sophistication with a weapon that an FMA'er would have and vice versa with the kicking stuff....

I guess my point is, checking or controlling the weapon is a good idea if you know how to do it. If you don't practice it, do what you know and pray for the best. Even if control/checking techniques are in your toolbox, they are generally taught as 'clearing the zone that the weapon will pass through motions' more than pinpoint 'grab/control the weapon' motions. So sometimes it is a control or check and sometimes the same motion becomes nothing at all and other times it turns into an in between strike.... I guess it just depends.

In reality if it was only a matter of the 'bestest' art deal, a program that trained reality street defense skills other than just the hitting part would be good and it would have a force continuum repetoire that went from tactical/defensive firearms instruction all the way down to verbal judo and run away applications. I don't think 'bestest' is the only reason people train.


Paul,

If you or anyone else took my words as saying the TKD would not work, or that FMA is the best ins all situations, then I will restate my words. TKD works. FMA works. It is up to the person not the art.

Now as to the Kicking. I know good full contact kickers from the 70's who were brave enough to quit their job and try to make a go at it. They were near the top of their game regionally. I would like to say that this would be a good representation of those who practice hard to kick and hit hard. One of them admits that he does not wish to ever kick (again) when the person has a weapon.

Why? The kicker has to cover distance and abort all the mass of the leg to stop the technique. The weapon, only has to move 6 to 18 inches to intercept and has a faster recover time. (* Assuming weapon does not weigh more than the average leg. *)

If I was to apply what I have seen of TKD. I would step in block hard before the person had a chance to complete thier swing. This reduces the amount of damage taken by stepping into the circle where the A is less for the calculation of F=MA or Force = Mass * Acceleration. The I would use some of the strong front punch and reverse punches to convince the person with the weapon that this was a bad idea. I would not try to swap kick for weapon strike. This is me, and also from my experince on the street and what I have seen.

I repeat, I did not say that TKD did not work. I know some guys who train hard hit hard, and can take it to the street. They agree though that they will be touched, and do not expect to come away unscathed.

:asian:

[rompida]

Also......... if you did not stop the weapon and instead sidestepped with a kick, wouldn't your leg become trapped against the attacker's body as the swinging arm followed through (unchecked) ???? Not to mention the fact that anyone who is a trained attacker is going to view that presented kicking leg as a possible target.

just my $.02

[loki09789]

Paul,

If you or anyone else took my words as saying the TKD would not work, or that FMA is the best ins all situations, then I will restate my words. TKD works. FMA works. It is up to the person not the art.

:asian:
Not directed at you. Just noticing that the tone of the thread has been shifting from 'controls should be used' to sort of a TKD/Hard style vs. Soft style/Kenpo/FMA direction. My point is that what ever you know best is what you are going to have faith will work. The problem is when that faith turns to fanaticism and you start to think that what you know best IS the best. Not so. Whatever works is the best and I like having a few tools for each of the ranges mentioned (kicking, blocking/checkin, grappling.... running/shooting :)) that I can do in my sleep instead of a whole bunch of skills in only one of these ranges - but only can pull off a handful anyway.

Just look at kick boxing/San Shou/K-1/....any other MMA format. The ability to do a few, powerful and well timed/executed techniques in each of the ranges is what gets the job done. Tool box with a few simple/multi-purpose tools versus surgical bag with tons of precise, single purpose tools. Each has its place but fighting/self defense isn't surgery. Long and short for me is that I am a product of my make up and training. In my program and mentallity, I was street effective before Green Belt/equivelant. I wasn't fancy or beautiful (shut up TOM!) but I was effective. After that base of a few essentials was established, refinement and 'art' was more of an emphasis in training.

As far as control or not to control, what distance to go to..... who knows until I get there.

[MA-Caver]

Now, I only post this to say that in Kenpo we also practice some weapons defenses that do not include weapon control. In fact, this technique is very similar to the one you described, in that we step off angle of an overhead club attack and then kick the guy. Of course, any experienced practitioner is going to grab the weapon and either immobilize it, remove it from the environment, or take it away. Maybe this happens before the kicks, maybe after. In this situation, I could maybe see stepping out of the way of the swing, quickly firing a few kicks in to stun my opponent, and then grabbing that weapon. It isn't really a step by step procedure, these things would happen almost simultaneously, although more or less in that order.
-Rob

Shoot, if I get ahold of that weapon (in a for-real fight) you can bet your arse I'm gonna use it against the SOB who's trying to use it on me. Mebbe it's the wrong attitude for a Martial Artist but the average street attacker isn't going to be a well trained MA , at least it's hoped that they won't be, because if they are and they still cowardly attack you (for whatever reason) then they went to the wrong school... anyway using honorable moves and techniques is of course up to the individual user... but I'll still hold to my oldest brother's words that: "There's no such thing as a fair fight" and that means me too.

[MichiganTKD]

My responses to an armed attacker will also depend on a lot of factors:
How much distance I have (room to move vs. trapped against a wall), what I am wearing, the environment, and the type of weapon used.

If I have room to move, and he uses a knife, I am going to maintain as much distance between him and me as I can and keep moving. Unless he plans on throwing it, it is difficult to hit somone with a knife who stays back and keeps moving. I never said or implied I would kick it out of his hands. I will use timing and footwork to kick him if he tries to rush in. And yes, I believe it is possible to do that despite what some people may think. If I am against a wall or cornered, obviously I will not be able to kick him. But I can still turn myself into a slippery bastard and keep moving.

Now the question I have for FMA, and I'm not denigrating the FMA by any means, but assuming you will be empty handed when confronted by an armed attacker (I imagine you don't walk around carrying your sticks with you), how is what you would do any different than what a TKD or other empty-hand stylist would do? You still have to block and counterattack. We train for the purpose of defending ourselves with no weapons.

But getting back to what I was saying. In close, I'm going to block and counter with whatever is most efficient at that time. If I try to grab his arm or control his weapon, by definition I am increasing my exposure time to a knife, gun , or club, allowing him a greater chance to contact me with it. Same with grappling. And I'm not saying a trained grappler would be any less effective. But the longer you are in contact with the attacker or his weapon, the greater the likelihood he will be able to injure you.

For example, if I want to transport a hot plate or dish across a room, I have a couple of options. I can carry it across, increasing my chances of getting burned. I can physically hit it, which will get it across but possibly damage it or the wall (not desirable in that circumstance), or I can use a potholder. However, if not potholder is available, that is not an option.

[8253]

the bottom line is it dosent matter what ma you are studying or how much you practice a certain punch, kick, or technique these things very very rarely go as practiced. doing it in a controlled environment is a lot different that doing it on the street. There are too many variables to say that this one thing or that one thing will work. The best one can do is to adapt to different situations the best they can and use what knowledge they have to survive. whether it be a kick, punch, or technique.

[Zoran]

Well I usually try to stay politically correct, but....


the bottom line is it dosent matter what ma you are studying or how much you practice a certain punch, kick, or technique....

I do have to disagree. It does matter what MA you study. Or more accurately, it matters if your system, what ever that may be, is being taught with a focus on logical combat principles.

Due to a couple of jobs I had, I have had to deal with some real self defense with weapons. The system I was taught deals with self defense for the street and is not orientated for sport nor does it teach traditional techniques without thought to the how's or why's. It saved my ass on a couple of occasions.

While the system doesn't so much mean anything, it is how that system is taught that means the world when it comes to self defense of any kind. A sport orientated system will never prepare you as well for real self defense situations as a combat orientated school will. Just as a combat school will not prepare me to point spar very well.

I would not go to Tai Chi to learn how to Box,
I would not go to Boxing to learn how to grapple,
I would not go to Judo to compete in a Karate tournament,
and I would not go to a Sport Karate school to learn how to defend myself.

Anyway, it's just my opinion and you can take it for what it's worth. You may now disagree and give me some bad karma. :asian:

[MJS]

Now the question I have for FMA, and I'm not denigrating the FMA by any means, but assuming you will be empty handed when confronted by an armed attacker (I imagine you don't walk around carrying your sticks with you), how is what you would do any different than what a TKD or other empty-hand stylist would do? You still have to block and counterattack. We train for the purpose of defending ourselves with no weapons.

All of the weapon disarms in the FMA can be translated to enpty hand. Thats the beauty of it. The limb destructions, strikes, and locks offer a wide variety of things to choose from. They still have their kicks, but they're not gonna rely on them until control has been gained. IMO, once you are in close, your elbows and knees are going to play a big part. Oh wait..I forgot...you dont think its good to have a wide assortment of things right??? :rolleyes:



But getting back to what I was saying. In close, I'm going to block and counter with whatever is most efficient at that time. If I try to grab his arm or control his weapon, by definition I am increasing my exposure time to a knife, gun , or club, allowing him a greater chance to contact me with it. Same with grappling. And I'm not saying a trained grappler would be any less effective. But the longer you are in contact with the attacker or his weapon, the greater the likelihood he will be able to injure you.

Dude, if you dont get control of the weapon, it can still be used against you. You're not exposing yourself to anything. Once control is gained, you're unloading on the attacker, and going for a disarm of the weapon. Far away, that stick is very dangerous, but in close, they have the butt end of the stick to strike with..thats it. Not gonna hurt as much as the tip being swung full speed.

Mike

[MJS]

the bottom line is it dosent matter what ma you are studying or how much you practice a certain punch, kick, or technique these things very very rarely go as practiced. doing it in a controlled environment is a lot different that doing it on the street. There are too many variables to say that this one thing or that one thing will work. The best one can do is to adapt to different situations the best they can and use what knowledge they have to survive. whether it be a kick, punch, or technique.

And thats the reason people get screwed on the street. During practice, if those techs. are not done with aliveness, you will NEVER get the feel of it. Put on a little gear and then try your stuff, with the 'attacker' really swinging at you. HUGE difference.

Mike

[MJS]

Well I usually try to stay politically correct, but....



I do have to disagree. It does matter what MA you study. Or more accurately, it matters if your system, what ever that may be, is being taught with a focus on logical combat principles.

Due to a couple of jobs I had, I have had to deal with some real self defense with weapons. The system I was taught deals with self defense for the street and is not orientated for sport nor does it teach traditional techniques without thought to the how's or why's. It saved my ass on a couple of occasions.

While the system doesn't so much mean anything, it is how that system is taught that means the world when it comes to self defense of any kind. A sport orientated system will never prepare you as well for real self defense situations as a combat orientated school will. Just as a combat school will not prepare me to point spar very well.

I would not go to Tai Chi to learn how to Box,
I would not go to Boxing to learn how to grapple,
I would not go to Judo to compete in a Karate tournament,
and I would not go to a Sport Karate school to learn how to defend myself.

Anyway, it's just my opinion and you can take it for what it's worth. You may now disagree and give me some bad karma. :asian:

Very good post. Many excellent points made!!!! :asian: :asian:

Mike

[Rich Parsons]

My responses to an armed attacker will also depend on a lot of factors:
How much distance I have (room to move vs. trapped against a wall), what I am wearing, the environment, and the type of weapon used.

If I have room to move, and he uses a knife, I am going to maintain as much distance between him and me as I can and keep moving. Unless he plans on throwing it, it is difficult to hit somone with a knife who stays back and keeps moving. I never said or implied I would kick it out of his hands. I will use timing and footwork to kick him if he tries to rush in. And yes, I believe it is possible to do that despite what some people may think. If I am against a wall or cornered, obviously I will not be able to kick him. But I can still turn myself into a slippery bastard and keep moving.

Now the question I have for FMA, and I'm not denigrating the FMA by any means, but assuming you will be empty handed when confronted by an armed attacker (I imagine you don't walk around carrying your sticks with you), how is what you would do any different than what a TKD or other empty-hand stylist would do? You still have to block and counterattack. We train for the purpose of defending ourselves with no weapons.

But getting back to what I was saying. In close, I'm going to block and counter with whatever is most efficient at that time. If I try to grab his arm or control his weapon, by definition I am increasing my exposure time to a knife, gun , or club, allowing him a greater chance to contact me with it. Same with grappling. And I'm not saying a trained grappler would be any less effective. But the longer you are in contact with the attacker or his weapon, the greater the likelihood he will be able to injure you.

For example, if I want to transport a hot plate or dish across a room, I have a couple of options. I can carry it across, increasing my chances of getting burned. I can physically hit it, which will get it across but possibly damage it or the wall (not desirable in that circumstance), or I can use a potholder. However, if not potholder is available, that is not an option.


What I would do.

I would step to the left on the diagonal.

I would pass or parry the weapon, and strike the limb or other available target. I would not try to beat the weapon. I would try to control the limb controlling the weapon.

I know it works for me. 2x4's, axes, baseball bats, golf clubs and other improvised weapons. (* Not recommended for everyone *)

[bluenosekenpo]

I think that the point has been lost somewhere in this thread. The point isn’t who’s got the bestest (that’s a touch patronizing isn’t it?loki?) MA. . I believe,the point should be, what is the most effective application of a defense against a specific attack (regardless of style). I’ve noticed that there is a lot of ignorance and many misconceptions when it comes to comprehending the intentions, methodology and mechanics of the various arts (TKD,FMA,whatever). To that end, disregard all styles and think of the more general concepts. Then use it as a litmus to your own style and see how well it does.



Look beyond the superficial aspects of the MA’s (who’s kick or punch is better) and you will come across truisms that ring loud and clear and can be applied to any MA. These are some (paraphrased from an article by M. Brewer with observations of my own):



1) Get comfortable fighting at all ranges.

2) Stop the strike before it starts.

3) Be in the best physical and mental shape possible, (have you really come to terms with severely hurting or killing someone?).

4) Prepare for the worst enemy! (I train with this thought, always)

5) Follow up your initial attack with constant, overwhelming pressure.

6) Fight at the range that is disadvantageous to your opponent. i.e. if he has a stick, get in trapping range, if he’s a grappler, stay at kicking range.

7) Cause pain in one location, fake a strike there again and instead hit elsewhere, keep him guessing.

8) Expect and demonstrate the unexpected.

9) Avoid the fight if possible but if you can’t avoid the situation, fight to survive, don’t think of it as a fight of honor, a duel or delude yourself into thinking it’s about a noble victory, there will be no winners, just survivors.

10) In training, as in life, be humble, because there will always be someone willing to teach you a lesson in humility.



Feel free to add to this list, hope it wasn’t too pompous, what was that thing about humility again? Train like a tiger

[bluenosekenpo]

wow, sorry about the font folks, hard on the eyes.

[MJS]

As I said before, when I started this thread, it was really not intended to start talking about which art is best, although, that is whats happening. I posted the thread, because I was curious as to why there was no controlling, parry, trap, etc. and instead, just a kick to the midsection.

Its interesting though, because further into the article, the author talks about disarming the attacker. He says to lean back to avoid the weapon, and then immediately go forward, grab the arm, and throw strikes until he's disarmed. At least this makes more sense, though I'd rather not move away, but forward to jam the attack or off on an angle.

During my FMA class, at times, we'll put on a helmet and a glove and use a padded stick to spar. Its really amazing as to how quickly the distance can be closed, and how many times you can be hit. IMO, many times, people do that overhead swing, the defender defends, and thats it. Unfortunately, what gets left out, is the "what if" phase of the training. During the sparring, as i said, many strikes are delivered, and the majority of the time, the person with the better offense, has the other guy strictly on defense, getting pounded. When you're put under the pressure of someone now really trying to hit you, the entire game changes. Training under pressure and with aliveness, will mentally prepare you for that time, when the stress level will be high, and your life depends on it!

Mike

[arnisandyz]

Now the question I have for FMA, and I'm not denigrating the FMA by any means, but assuming you will be empty handed when confronted by an armed attacker (I imagine you don't walk around carrying your sticks with you), how is what you would do any different than what a TKD or other empty-hand stylist would do? You still have to block and counterattack. We train for the purpose of defending ourselves with no weapons.
.

I train/have trained in both FMA and TKD. In FMA you train to use weapons and to defend against them. One might say there is an advantage in knowing the mechanics of the attack coming at you. I also get an overall feel that FMA practicioners have alot of respect for the weapon because they know its capabilities, where some of my TKD friends have more of a formulated solution "I'll just block and counter". Which brings me to the next point...most FMA would NOT block and counter as you mentioned, but take a counter offensive. There are no hard BLOCKS per se in FMA! Take an overhead stab from a knifer....a TKD stylist may do a hi-rising block and counter with a mid-section punch, something commonly taught in TKD schools against an overhand hammerfist strike or ax kick...a FMA stylist may sidestep and blend with the attack while simultaniously striking. WHY? The FMA stylist knows what will happen when the knife meets a hard resistance, because they are trained what to do if they are holding the knife. They are able to blend into the attack because they know how to attack with the knife.I have seen many good TKD practioners, but to rely on techniques based on empty hand skills alone vs a weapon may not be a complete solution.

[MJS]

Just to elaborate on my comment regarding control of the weapon. In the same magazine, there was another article talking about the FMA, and offering a few different tips. 2 things caught my eye. One part was talking about empty hand defense. It went on to talk about making sure that you work your techniques for controlling and disarming the opp. The second part was talking about grappling and its role. It went on to say that there is a good chance that you could end up grappling with the person while standing. Again it said that your first goal should be to control and neutralize the weapon.

Now, I'm not saying that this article is the end all- be all of defending yourself against a club or knife, but it is interesting how I made the comments I did, long before I had the chance to read that article.

Mike

[MJS]

I train/have trained in both FMA and TKD. In FMA you train to use weapons and to defend against them. One might say there is an advantage in knowing the mechanics of the attack coming at you. I also get an overall feel that FMA practicioners have alot of respect for the weapon because they know its capabilities, where some of my TKD friends have more of a formulated solution "I'll just block and counter". Which brings me to the next point...most FMA would NOT block and counter as you mentioned, but take a counter offensive. There are no hard BLOCKS per se in FMA! Take an overhead stab from a knifer....a TKD stylist may do a hi-rising block and counter with a mid-section punch, something commonly taught in TKD schools against an overhand hammerfist strike or ax kick...a FMA stylist may sidestep and blend with the attack while simultaniously striking. WHY? The FMA stylist knows what will happen when the knife meets a hard resistance, because they are trained what to do if they are holding the knife. They are able to blend into the attack because they know how to attack with the knife.I have seen many good TKD practioners, but to rely on techniques based on empty hand skills alone vs a weapon may not be a complete solution.

Very well said! :asian:

Mike

[Rich Parsons]

First, no disrespect meant, I just wish to comment.



1) Get comfortable fighting at all ranges.


I agree with this. Although recognize you will have a favorite range and try to control the fight to your advantage.



2) Stop the strike before it starts.

This is a good idea. I like it.
Yet, this also has negative side issues. You hit him first. No you are the bad guy in the eyes of the law and court. Just remember this the weapon is not a threat until there is clear and present intent and danger from the weapon. Or at least this is how it was explained to me by numerous officers and dectives and DA's. It is hard to prove fear and self defense when you attack first.



3) Be in the best physical and mental shape possible, (have you really come to terms with severely hurting or killing someone?).

This is very true. Are you ready to do what ever it takes?
Yet, in controllng the weapon you have in my mind a better chance of controlling the fight without one or both of you going to the hospital and possible jail even if you are the winner aka survivor.



4) Prepare for the worst enemy! (I train with this thought, always)

Yes, it is good to assume that you the bad guy will do his worst. Yet, remember yuo may need to prove this, and jsut because you assumed it, does not make it legal in court.



5) Follow up your initial attack with constant, overwhelming pressure.


Yes follow up, until the point of where you are in control and then maintain that control, do not cross the threshold of you becoming the attacker and bad guy. i.e. the bad uy down and your continue to hit and or kick him. You have him pinned and you decide to break something just because.



6) Fight at the range that is disadvantageous to your opponent. i.e. if he has a stick, get in trapping range, if he’s a grappler, stay at kicking range.


I agree, see above #1.



7) Cause pain in one location, fake a strike there again and instead hit elsewhere, keep him guessing.


Good Plan, yet it is good to hit the same spot again for compliance issues. Just do not over do it.



8) Expect and demonstrate the unexpected.


I do not know how to expect the unexpected. I can limit my reactions to surprise to continue working my game and techniques and tactics.




9) Avoid the fight if possible but if you can’t avoid the situation, fight to survive, don’t think of it as a fight of honor, a duel or delude yourself into thinking it’s about a noble victory, there will be no winners, just survivors.


Good points. Although, if you hurt the person too bad you might be called upon the stabalize or get help to avoid death. This assumes the bad guy is out. Otherwise leave and call for help anyways.



10) In training, as in life, be humble, because there will always be someone willing to teach you a lesson in humility.


I take a private from a 73 year old man each week. He humbles me everytime, just with is capabilities. So, you never know who they might be. See #8



Feel free to add to this list, hope it wasn’t too pompous, what was that thing about humility again? Train like a tiger

[MJS]

This is a good idea. I like it.
Yet, this also has negative side issues. You hit him first. No you are the bad guy in the eyes of the law and court. Just remember this the weapon is not a threat until there is clear and present intent and danger from the weapon. Or at least this is how it was explained to me by numerous officers and dectives and DA's. It is hard to prove fear and self defense when you attack first.

Sounds like something I've talked about in my pre-emptive strike thread. IMO, if someone has a weapon, there is a good chance that he's gonna be using it, not holding it for his health. HE already rose the threat level. Now, to John Q Public, it may look like hes using that stick as defense against me, but regardless, I'm not going to wait until hes already half way to my head before I move. As soon as he makes a threatening move, that IMO is the time to respond.

Mike

[bluenosekenpo]

First, no disrespect meant, I just wish to comment.
hi rich, i value all views and honest input.


This is very true. Are you ready to do what ever it takes?

i've done alot of soul searching over this, yup, whatever it takes. see #11


I do not know how to expect the unexpected. I can limit my reactions to surprise to continue working my game and techniques and tactics.
i was thinking about outside influences like his or your friends entering the fight. be situationaly aware.


#11 Use common sense.

regards

[Rich Parsons]

Sounds like something I've talked about in my pre-emptive strike thread. IMO, if someone has a weapon, there is a good chance that he's gonna be using it, not holding it for his health. HE already rose the threat level. Now, to John Q Public, it may look like hes using that stick as defense against me, but regardless, I'm not going to wait until hes already half way to my head before I move. As soon as he makes a threatening move, that IMO is the time to respond.

Mike

Mike,

I read your threatening move as he has startd to move towards you. Or the bad guy has cocked his weapon ready to swing, versus just sitting on his shoulder in his hand(s). In this case move to control the weapon and make sure he knows it was a bad move to even think about it.

Yet, from experience, I recommend you pay attention, to this fine line.

I do not think we are that far apart if at all.

:)