Re-Certification Tests – Good or Bad?

[TigerWoman]

Last year, our master instituted recertification tests for all black belts. We are required to test every 6 months. Mostly this is for the black belts who do not try to work on stuff, do not attend many classes, etc. This test for us includes forms- poomse (Taekwondo), pushups, punches, kicks, slow motion kicks, self defense, sparring, a breaking contest to "wow" the master, even grading on integrity etc. What is your experience with this and is it working?

[terryl965]

Tigerwoman I think it's abad thing was you are certified by AAU USTU and the Kukkiwon no one can take that from you becouse of politics. in my opion it is a way to get more money from his pupils, by the way does he charge you for this servicE
God Bless America

[loki09789]

Good practice in theory, in educational circles it is usually termed an external motivator, sort of like "mandatory" meetings because they make it part of the pay day schedule.

Tough thing is communicating the positive intentions and setting it up so that it is used constructively. Maybe instead of just 'retesting' every six months on the same old same old, he could get more enthusiasm by offering 'black belt' instructor training which would encompass reviewing and evaluating techniques and practices from new perspectives along with establishing professionalism/integrity training for BB.

[TigerWoman]

Good practice in theory, in educational circles it is usually termed an external motivator, sort of like "mandatory" meetings because they make it part of the pay day schedule.

Tough thing is communicating the positive intentions and setting it up so that it is used constructively. Maybe instead of just 'retesting' every six months on the same old same old, he could get more enthusiasm by offering 'black belt' instructor training which would encompass reviewing and evaluating techniques and practices from new perspectives along with establishing professionalism/integrity training for BB.

He tried a black belt class also making it mandatory. We tediously went over forms one call/move at a time, correcting each person as we went.
Practically lost everyone. It got down to me, a zealous 13 year old and another soon to be 2nd deg. Personally I got a few details out of it but not much more than another exercise class.

This new idea is not reaching the people who don't come to class or work on their requirements - just the one's who are presently teaching for him.

In reply to Terry.
No he is not charging us an additional fee. One good thing :-)

[terryl965]

well maybe since you are trying to make it work, let him know the positive aspects of the additioal training and also let him know about the negatives as well

[Danjo]

We do not re-certify high school diplomas, BA degrees or any other college degree. Once they are earned, they are earned for life. Some continue their education, others do not. Nevertheless, they do not take back the degree. However, if one is a public school teacher, they have to re-certify their teacher's credential every five years (in California) and participate in "professional development" or else they will not be allowed to continue as a teacher. I have no problem with requiring instructors to re-certify their instructor's certificate (if they have one), but they should leave the black belt alone.

[loki09789]

We do not re-certify high school diplomas, BA degrees or any other college degree. Once they are earned, they are earned for life. Some continue their education, others do not. Nevertheless, they do not take back the degree. However, if one is a public school teacher, they have to re-certify their teacher's credential every five years (in California) and participate in "professional development" or else they will not be allowed to continue as a teacher. I have no problem with requiring instructors to re-certify their instructor's certificate (if they have one), but they should leave the black belt alone.

True, but since most BB are also instructors, we do have 7 year recerts in NYS (not a fan of the pain aspect of it, but respect the spirit of it), and there is regular 'in service' training in most professional fields of some kind. Nothing wrong with it as long as it is used beneficially and with the right intent. This sounds like a case of "oh yeah, and your little dog toto too!" when it should be set up as a reward for those who show the desire to improve themselves with attendance and instructing others.

Consider this as well, in the military units are regularly 'recerted' for readiness through a series of inspections, exercises and simulated crisis responses/call ups. If part of the BB requirements is to maintain a state of readiness, and that state of readiness is clearly defined, I see no problem with it.

I would make recert manditory if the person had left for a significant amount of time (six months or more) and was going to be possibly instructing others by virtue of his/her rank. Of course the recert would be after a reasonable refresher period to ensure fitness and training time.

The rank papering process is just the beginning of the next phase. Any form of formal re-evaluation can be a good thing. Now, the part that can make the practice in this case bad is the consequence if you don't pass the recert. What can he ultimately do?

[Touch Of Death]

Last year, our master instituted recertification tests for all black belts. We are required to test every 6 months. Mostly this is for the black belts who do not try to work on stuff, do not attend many classes, etc. This test for us includes forms- poomse (Taekwondo), pushups, punches, kicks, slow motion kicks, self defense, sparring, a breaking contest to "wow" the master, even grading on integrity etc. What is your experience with this and is it working?This practice reeks of control freak. When these guys open their own school someday this guy can pop up and say that he had retracted their Black belts a long time ago. Personality conflicts or what your intructor consideres a poor choice of action (such as switching styles) could also result in a retraction. If he wants to maintain quality he needs to let students spend more time in belt before promotion. Its that simple. Judging from your later posts we are talking about a bunch of kids here; so, I suggest your instructor switch to a junior BlackBelt program. Sheeesh!!!!
Sean

[kenpo12]

Last year, our master instituted recertification tests for all black belts. We are required to test every 6 months. Mostly this is for the black belts who do not try to work on stuff, do not attend many classes, etc. This test for us includes forms- poomse (Taekwondo), pushups, punches, kicks, slow motion kicks, self defense, sparring, a breaking contest to "wow" the master, even grading on integrity etc. What is your experience with this and is it working?

I always figured that was why there are multiple degrees of black belt. Those who chose to do the minimum stay at first degree and those who chose to move on do so. What if someone has to take a brake from training for a year? They get their black belt revoked? I've seen alot of people who took one, two, or three plus year brakes from training for whatever reason ie school, personal issues, work etc. I've seen many of those same people come back and within a month or two be back to the same proficency they were at when they left and maybe test for the next degree within a year.

It seems to me that if someone is teaching in the studio everyday as a black belt they should already know their material. If someone is a blackbelt and doesn't teach often but attends classes often they would know the material. If someone is a blackbelt and doesn't fit into either of the previously mentioned categories then they need to do some brushing up because they won't be able to keep up with class if they aren't "up to snuff".

I think TOD hit it on the head with the control freak thing.

[Ping898]

I know my old school (I've since moved out of state) used to have Black Belt re-cert's every year. You didn't get charged for them and you couldn't loose your belt, cause you had already earned it, but I know it could delay your promotion to 2nd or 3rd Dan etc because if you failed you would stop getting new material for at least the next 6 mon or so until you could show a proficency for all the material you were supposed to know. There was some physical aspect to the test too, but not much more than we would do in an average class. I personally liked it. Like all but 1 or 2 of the black belts were instructors so it helped use make sure we were all teaching the same thing and forced you to make sure you didn't forget the stuff you didn't necessarily practice in class.

That said, I agree that the process didn't necessarily reach those it who disappeared with no word. People taking breaks were still allowed back in with no penalty if we knew about them. Also I think if you failed the re-cert the school didn't pay your next year's membership fee to the WKKA, which my school was associated with.

[MJS]

Last year, our master instituted recertification tests for all black belts. We are required to test every 6 months. Mostly this is for the black belts who do not try to work on stuff, do not attend many classes, etc. This test for us includes forms- poomse (Taekwondo), pushups, punches, kicks, slow motion kicks, self defense, sparring, a breaking contest to "wow" the master, even grading on integrity etc. What is your experience with this and is it working?

Question. What is the purpose of this class? Is it to make sure that all of the BB are up to speed on the material or is there a chance that the BB could lose their rank? If its simply a class to make sure that the material is up to speed, then IMO, those classes are fine. Any time you have a school with a large group of instructors, its important to make sure that everyone is teaching the material to the students in the same way. In addition, its also a chance for all of the BB to get together and have a good, hard workout!

Once you earn your rank, its yours! Period!! Its something that you earned and nobody can take it away from you.

Mike

[TigerWoman]

This practice reeks of control freak. When these guys open their own school someday this guy can pop up and say that he had retracted their Black belts a long time ago. Personality conflicts or what your intructor consideres a poor choice of action (such as switching styles) could also result in a retraction. If he wants to maintain quality he needs to let students spend more time in belt before promotion. Its that simple. Judging from your later posts we are talking about a bunch of kids here; so, I suggest your instructor switch to a junior BlackBelt program. Sheeesh!!!!
Sean

You got some of it right with the control and the quality. I see some getting black belts alot easier than I did. While I was held to a palm strike through a brick standard, a favorite was allowed an easier elbow strike through 3 boards. I'm the oldest woman so I forged the way as they say. We are mostly 40 something black belts with a few juniors.

[MJS]

You got some of it right with the control and the quality. I see some getting black belts alot easier than I did. While I was held to a palm strike through a brick standard, a favorite was allowed an easier elbow strike through 3 boards. I'm the oldest woman so I forged the way as they say. We are mostly 40 something black belts with a few juniors.

Yup, after reading this statement, I agree that the Inst. does sound controlling and favors certain students. If I was in this situation, I'd leave that school and find another one.

Mike

[TigerWoman]

Question. What is the purpose of this class? Is it to make sure that all of the BB are up to speed on the material or is there a chance that the BB could lose their rank? If its simply a class to make sure that the material is up to speed, then IMO, those classes are fine. Any time you have a school with a large group of instructors, its important to make sure that everyone is teaching the material to the students in the same way. In addition, its also a chance for all of the BB to get together and have a good, hard workout!

Once you earn your rank, its yours! Period!! Its something that you earned and nobody can take it away from you.

Mike

How do you just quote a part of these lines? Well, the purpose, I believe, is to get me out of my seniority as highest level woman black belt. I haven't even passed my second dan test from last year but am required to do ANOTHER test to show WHAT? I'm 54 going on 55, its not on my side to keep having to break to wow him, in contest with big guy's who can headbutt cement. I hope I don't sound boastful, its not my intention, but I remember and do the forms well. I practice and come to class 3 times more than anyone there. Its a political move, because we have had a disagreement over an issue of integrity. Yes he has threatened to take anyone's belt who does not participate. I have yet to participate - May.

[MJS]

How do you just quote a part of these lines? Well, the purpose, I believe, is to get me out of my seniority as highest level woman black belt. I haven't even passed my second dan test from last year but am required to do ANOTHER test to show WHAT? I'm 54 going on 55, its not on my side to keep having to break to wow him, in contest with big guy's who can headbutt cement. I hope I don't sound boastful, its not my intention, but I remember and do the forms well. I practice and come to class 3 times more than anyone there. Its a political move, because we have had a disagreement over an issue of integrity. Yes he has threatened to take anyone's belt who does not participate. I have yet to participate - May.

To quote parts of postings. put the words quote in brackets []....at the end of what you're trying to quote put a / in front of the word quote.

Yes, after reading your last post, I would definately find another instructor. This guy seems VERY controlling! It also seems that he has something against you, due to the fact that hes holding you back from testing...that is not right. And you should not be required to break anything. I know that is a big part of TKD, but IMO, I really dont see the point to it.

[TigerWoman]

Oh, I have left out out a lot. The integrity issue is not mine. I have one board to break for 2nd dan. I have fought a VERY uphill battle to get it.
I taught myself the last three forms in the 20 that I needed to know. I practiced the breaking technique on my own without ANY of his help. I got no encouragement just two upgrades on a break - harder. My 17 yr. daughter was required to do knife hand through a brick too. She was going to test before me before going to college but that upgrade pretty much nixed her. I have also had flung in my face all the virtues of his "favorite" because she refused to know what the issue was really about - "if I don't know anything then it can't affect me". I have had to say humility, humility, humility and keep quiet. I very much want that stripe. And THEN, I may leave. But I will not let ANYONE TAKE which is MINE. I deserve it and I will accomplish it. I will not go down politically. --TigerWoman

[MJS]

You seem to have a very good attitude and that is very important IMO!!! However, we are all human and we all have feelings, though I'm starting to have doubts about the feelings of your inst. Nobody should have to be disrespected! I dont blame you at all for wanting that stripe, and by all means go for it and give it 100%. But if you feel that you'd get better training elsewhere, then please dont let anyone talk you into staying someplace where you wont be happy.

Mike

[TigerWoman]

Yes, well, I have been breaking 8+ boards a day x 3 times a week. This has been going on 3 months now. I broke from April -Aug. last year then when on South Beach, lost 30 lbs. Lost muscle, regained it, lost training, regained it So all those boards are getting expensive!
I'm not complaining now, but a statement of fact, my bad knee is unstable, coming down on it for a double jump and lately is getting worse. That's after a hamstring injury from doing too many ax, crescent kicks one day. Ah the perils of age - not twenty something anymore. I don't know any 50 yr. old guys in TKD either. One I was always testing with had a health problem so he got an easier black belt test and left.
So my instructor is a chauvinist, shows favoritism, likes control, is not open-minded (his way or the hi-way) won't ask me to teach (doesn't stop me), doesn't encourage me, doesn't TEACH. Why would I stay?

[MJS]

Well, all the more reason to leave that school. You sound like you're really into the arts, and that is definately a very good thing. Any physical activity is better than nothing, and you're also learning skills to defend yourself.

I cant stress enough though, that if you're not happy with something, stop doing it!!

Mike

[Ceicei]

So my instructor is a chauvinist, shows favoritism, likes control, is not open-minded (his way or the hi-way) won't ask me to teach (doesn't stop me), doesn't encourage me, doesn't TEACH. Why would I stay?
Why would you? What are the pros for staying?

- Ceicei

[TigerWoman]

BECAUSE if AM 55 nearly - yikes, which is usually hard for a woman to say.
But I LOOK and usually feel 30 something. Before I tested, I did talk to a woman master in a nearby town. She was sympathetic but, if I went into her organization I would not be a black belt. More like a blue which is equal to 2 years. Because my master and their organization have had issues. Also, I would have to train on a cement floor and retest all over again. Pretty much my only option - not do-able. So I have to break the top board-jump spin heel (hook) really quick before the May recert. test.

What I wanted from this forum really is a valid argument against recertification tests. Maybe some sympathy. :-) Thanks for the validation of what I've been thinking and feeling.

[TigerWoman]

Ceicei, because what you have at the end of your reply box - Martial Arts for Life. Its the only thing I have found that gives me life - exercise and passion. I don't have alot of options at 55 in MA in the location I'm at.

[Ceicei]

Ceicei, because what you have at the end of your reply box - Martial Arts for Life. Its the only thing I have found that gives me life - exercise and passion. I don't have alot of options at 55 in MA in the location I'm at.
Understood. I wish you luck!

- Ceicei

[8253]

once youve earned something, its yours, and no one can take it away no matter how many recertification tests they say you have to take. sounds like a money making scam to me

[CanuckMA]

Tigerwoman, I sympathize with you. I'm 43, started trining again last year when my yongest wanted to start training. I use to do TKD, I know how hard it is on us older folks. I never did 'get' the point of those fancy breaks requirements for grading. Doing a double-reverse-jumping-spin kick 6' in the air to snap a board looks real cool, but, IMHO, is of absolutely no consequence in regards to either your mastery of the art or your ability to fight. Re-certs are just plain stupid. A BB is a lot more than physical. I've been taught by people who could no longer do half the fancy stuff they where teaching. They were still great teachers. I feel sorry that you can't train anywhere else. I have a knee problem that makes it diffucult for me to do side and round-house kicks on one side. My sensei takes that into account when training and grading. A good teacher should understand. If he is old, he's an idiot. If he's young, take heart, he'll know how you feel someday.

Cheers.

[loki09789]

Tigerwoman, I sympathize with you. I'm 43, started trining again last year when my yongest wanted to start training. I use to do TKD, I know how hard it is on us older folks. I never did 'get' the point of those fancy breaks requirements for grading. Doing a double-reverse-jumping-spin kick 6' in the air to snap a board looks real cool, but, IMHO, is of absolutely no consequence in regards to either your mastery of the art or your ability to fight. Re-certs are just plain stupid. A BB is a lot more than physical. I've been taught by people who could no longer do half the fancy stuff they where teaching. They were still great teachers. I feel sorry that you can't train anywhere else. I have a knee problem that makes it diffucult for me to do side and round-house kicks on one side. My sensei takes that into account when training and grading. A good teacher should understand. If he is old, he's an idiot. If he's young, take heart, he'll know how you feel someday.

Cheers.

I don't mean to trash TKD, but I really am frustrated by how rigid it is set up in civilian practice. The physical demand and level of athleticism expected from it's practitioners was originally geared to teaching military troops (ie young, fit males of good bones and generally healthy diets). Though the warrior spirit of that origin should be maintained, it is just damn dangerous to expect people who don't come from that demographic (ie first timers, returning to training as older, less fit when they start....) to be able to perform with the same level of athletic outcomes. In short, some styles, like TKD are really more appealing to the 'younger man's/woman's' game.

I would say that, as long as the goal is to learn and be effective in self defense, then screw the rank and time investment of the belt because no one can take away the knowledge you have gained in achieving that rank, find a school/group that you are comfortable with and trains in a way that is smart and safe as well as challenging and inspiring but right for you.

Being a newbie again can be as important a challenge as any other.

[OULobo]

Someone brought this subject to me previously, and I have mixed opinions on it. I like the idea of knowing that when you have a BB it is a solid permenant sign of confidence from the instructor that you have the ability to teach independantly. I also like the notion that BBs should be both capable and knowledgable to uphold the integrety of the BB as a symbol. Knowledge, just like physical ability is something that must be maintained, and if it isn't, it can fade, warp or just vanish. We have had issues at one of my schools where a BB doesn't know required material or doesn't teach the correct method. Some even try to cover by throwing in something from a separate system. While this might not be all that bad a thing, many of the students come to train one thing and are only taught something completly different. If I'm coming to train BJJ, I don't want to be doing Okinawan katas instead. BB testing also assures consistancy in instruction so that people aren't learning techniques that are changed or taught in someone's personal style. I think I like the idea someone mentioned about not stripping BBs, but only giving teaching cert. to those that prove capability and consistancy at occational testing. One system I train has an annual camp to test the physical capabilities of the BBs and while you don't loose your BB if you don't make the requirements, you do get increasing pressure from the GM to shape it up.

And all this from a guy who doesn't believe in rank much.

[loki09789]

When I have my own program up and running again, I have been toying with the idea of running quarterly 'testing' for every one. The intention wouldn't be to 'shake the tree' and weed people out. The intention would be to establish a regular, reasonably spaced interval of assessments so that the student and instructors have a chance to evaluate the changes in performance AND the effectiveness of the training/instruction approach.

Sometimes you get inspired and throw in a new drill or 'personalize' someones instruction but don't really know if it is getting the desired results when it counts.

Much like 10 week grades in school it would strikely be for evaluation first. If, though, someone really improved and deserves a promotion or has demonstrated mastery of current material they would be awarded that as fitting their rank and demonstrative skill.

How would it work? I took Suzuki violin instruction when I was younger and they basically lined the whole class up and everyone performed together starting with the basic stuff and progressing through the musical pieces to the more challenging stuff. When you reached a point in the performance where you didn't know the material or couldn't do it that day for what ever reason, you just sat down. NO judgement, no pressure, you just sat. If there was something later on - out of sequence, but you felt you could do it - you stood back up and performed. I liked that.

[TigerWoman]

I wouldn't mind doing recert. if he had a better attitude toward me, did not pass me over to teach. Also if it was not mandatory to prove you "earn and keep the belt." I have always worked hard to get better. But, I would not know whether he was showing me "details" to help or making undue criticism to destroy. He doesn't want to teach me yet at the same time he wants to put "grades" on the forms etc. How many 5's will I see? Also, I won't win at a black belt breaking contest. At whose expense is that!

I have lost alot of respect for him and that wasn't easy for me. It was like having a father who makes a big promise and doesn't keep it-like losing a father really. I was his number one supporter -ads, demos, teacher, the list is long, I was there without him asking. But the trust isn't there now because he can't acknowledge the harm he has done me, my family and the school. Preaches humility but can't say I'm sorry. I can forgive , but I can't trust him to not hurt me again. So do I trust him to grade me fairly? I don't even trust him if he tells me to do 600 high kicks because my hamstrings are laid up for a month after.

A tip: When you guys have schools, don't ever be too big to not be able to say I'm sorry. I believe humility is more attractive in a male instructor than boastful bravado. It heals. Trust is a big component in a student/teacher relationship. I guess that is what this recert test is about.

[Robbo]

I have just one question...

Who re-certify's your instructor?

Rob

[RCastillo]

Last year, our master instituted recertification tests for all black belts. We are required to test every 6 months. Mostly this is for the black belts who do not try to work on stuff, do not attend many classes, etc. This test for us includes forms- poomse (Taekwondo), pushups, punches, kicks, slow motion kicks, self defense, sparring, a breaking contest to "wow" the master, even grading on integrity etc. What is your experience with this and is it working?

Seems like an idea for more money, after all, public school teachers do not necessarilly reatke tests to prove they're up to par, they just get evaluated. If BB are not up to par, evaluation should be the best tool, and not give them a chance to attain higer rank. :asian: