Native American Fighting Arts?

[marshallbd]

Are there any Organized Native American Fighting Art Systems/Organizations out there other than the Infamous Chief Romans?
Here's the chiefs site if you havent ever seen it...www.adrianroman.com :asian:

[TonyM.]

There is a knife fighting art that includes staff and barehand in alaska known as ulu that I've been shown a little of. Can't find anything on the web exept people selling ulus.
P.S. That bio was perhaps the most complete BS I've ever read. WTF, did the BIA kick the family out because they could'nt prove lineage or what? As a cherokee I'm suspitious of all of his claims. Notice no tribal connections. Bet he used to call himself a shaman.

[MichiganTKD]

I'm not Native American, so please don't misinterpret. I find it very odd that this Roman guy is attaching Oriental belt ranks to a supposedly Native American fighting system. I agree. It does look like a load of crap. I guess Native Americans can be con artists as much as anyone else. That is, if he is indeed Native. I doubt that too.

[Marvin]

When I went to Tom Brown jrs. school ( www.trackerschool.com )a long time ago, he said that there were native martial arts and showed a little knife stuff.
Marvin

[arnisador]

I find it very odd that this Roman guy is attaching Oriental belt ranks to a supposedly Native American fighting system.
I certainly am not going to defend the "system" in question, but in fairness, you could say the same about Korean/Chinese/Filipino/etc. systems using the Japanese belt ranking system. It's so common nowadays that people simply expect it.

[RHD]

Looks like a good moneymaker to me...I think i'll go to one of the guy's seminars and get certified immediately.
Mike

[7starmantis]

I'm a memebr of the Comanche Nation and did some research at one time about NA fighting systems. Most of what I got from speaking with different chiefs was that there wasn't one set system, it was basically learn from experience. They started you learning how to use such things as hatchets and you learned to hunt small animals, then bigger ones, then fighting with them. If you didn't learn quick and win, you most likely wouldn't last long and wouldn't be made a warrior.

Just some info on it I found a while back.

7sm

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

As someone who is only 1/4 Native Am., part Cherokee & part Choctaw, I resent this guy holding himself out there as representing validity, BASED ON HIS HONOR AS A NATIVE AMERICAN. Like there aren't enough misconceptions to overcome.

As to NA systems: There is a guy in So. Cal. (Fountain Valley, last time I looked) named Blaise Loong, who has some Apache relatives. Spent much of his adult youth travelling the world learning indegineous fighting arts. One was Apache spear and knife, which he teaches along side Viking Shield & Hammer, JKD and Kali (Inosanto line), and Penchak Silat (was one of the first non-natives to travel to that part of the world to learn the art, and was adopted by one of the Guro's poeple in the art know by name...but I don't recall the name of the guru)

Also teaches dumog, and has some senior students importing BJJ. Actually one of the few "warrior" training grounds around here...hard core, fanatic type, great with weapons, and trains hard. Talented student pool. Might be on the web; I know he has some weapons videos.

Namaste!

Dr. Dave

[OULobo]

I heard about this guy on the Escrima Digest forum. As usual on the forum he got a standard mix of "he's fake" and "he's respectable". I still wouldn't mind checking him out as he has some very unique styles if they are authentic.

[marshallbd]

I heard about this guy on the Escrima Digest forum. As usual on the forum he got a standard mix of "he's fake" and "he's respectable". I still wouldn't mind checking him out as he has some very unique styles if they are authentic.Are you talking about Roman or Mr Loong in California? :asian:

[OULobo]

Are you talking about Roman or Mr Loong in California? :asian:


Mr. Loong.

[marshallbd]

Mr. Loong.Thanks for clarifying, not sure about Mr Loong, but I think Mr Roman needs to rethink his program....

[Sapper6]

in regards to Roman's "Native American" System of fighting...upon further research, Roman has a very legitimate MA background in Parker's American Kenpo. if you were to look at his MA history, you will see it is almost all Kenpo-based. i do believe while he may be a talented Kenpoist, what he probably did was take the kenpo knowledge he had, & distorted it to his own liking, in turn, creating his Red Warrior system. please dont be confused in believing the Native American people have their own system of empty-hand defense per se. im sure we do, but it's not one of structured content so to speak. also, Roman does have a studio in TX somewhere, & from what i've heard, American Kenpo is the curriculum taught.

kinda on the same subject, isnt it funny that ppl on the forum are bashing this guy for having a distance-learning program. im not in the least defending Roman , and for the record, i completely disagree w/ any kind of MA distant-learning programs, or belts by mail. i say if you bash one, you should then bash them all. why hasnt anyone here ever questioned the IKCA program of belts through the mail...? im not hoping the enflame anyone, just playing devil's advocate here...

[loki09789]

What about systems of Hawaiian/Polynesian fighting systems of the indiginous folks (Samoans and such). Saw WHALE RIDER about New Zealand based Polynesians and there was a component about martial arts/warrior traditions in the Chieftain training part of the movie,

[Sapper6]

What about systems of Hawaiian/Polynesian fighting systems of the indiginous folks (Samoans and such). Saw WHALE RIDER about New Zealand based Polynesians and there was a component about martial arts/warrior traditions in the Chieftain training part of the movie,


i wasnt meaning for my statement to be a "blanket statement" referring to all Natives. i am just referring to the Native Americans, my own heritage to be exact, which is Cherokee, Choctaw, & Creek Indian...

[arnisador]

kinda on the same subject, isnt it funny that ppl on the forum are bashing this guy for having a distance-learning program. im not in the least defending Roman , and for the record, i completely disagree w/ any kind of MA distant-learning programs, or belts by mail. i say if you bash one, you should then bash them all. why hasnt anyone here ever questioned the IKCA program of belts through the mail...? im not hoping the enflame anyone, just playing devil's advocate here...
Here's a thread on that (not the only one):
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12291

[loki09789]

i wasnt meaning for my statement to be a "blanket statement" referring to all Natives. i am just referring to the Native Americans, my own heritage to be exact, which is Cherokee, Choctaw, & Creek Indian...

Okay, but what about it? I figured if anyone was interested in aboriginal arts/indiginous arts they might have insight into both regions.

On the topic, I think it is interesting how hunting is used in these tribal based arts as a way of training the skills within a context that relates to combat applications (tracking, stalking, booby traps/snares, anatomy and killing blows...) and not just a stand alone art. I can't say I know much about an organized Native American Art, but I can say that relating the 'context' training to my own upbringing, firearms and knife skills were part of my 'sportsman' training that gave it a total context as well.

[donald]

%-} I think that some hit it on the head. There probably are'nt any NA systems that have been put in granite. I think that most of them have been probably passed from student to teacher. With out any one system being recorded, and kept. I wonder if there are any legitimate NA teachers of the old martial ways looking for someone to help save thier system? I would be very interested in helping in such an endeavor.

:asian:

[stanley neptune]

Chief Roman doesn't he teach Tonto Jutsu which is the system used by the Fugawi Tribe. He looks a little liek Roaring Chicken from F-Troop.

It is Kenpo under a different name with some Native American Mumbo Jumbo thrown in for good measure.

Why does everyone look for new esoteric stuff when the old stuff works just fine.

I am Irish. I think I will invent Leprechaun Fu. The indigenous style used by the wee folk of the Mystical Island of Eire, The Old Sod, to protect their pots of gold and their Lucky Charms (Oooooo...They're always after me Lucky Charms!!)

Stanley Neptune

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

in regards to Roman's "Native American" System of fighting...upon further research, Roman has a very legitimate MA background in Parker's American Kenpo. if you were to look at his MA history, you will see it is almost all Kenpo-based. i do believe while he may be a talented Kenpoist, what he probably did was take the kenpo knowledge he had, & distorted it to his own liking, in turn, creating his Red Warrior system. please dont be confused in believing the Native American people have their own system of empty-hand defense per se. im sure we do, but it's not one of structured content so to speak. also, Roman does have a studio in TX somewhere, & from what i've heard, American Kenpo is the curriculum taught.

kinda on the same subject, isnt it funny that ppl on the forum are bashing this guy for having a distance-learning program. im not in the least defending Roman , and for the record, i completely disagree w/ any kind of MA distant-learning programs, or belts by mail. i say if you bash one, you should then bash them all. why hasnt anyone here ever questioned the IKCA program of belts through the mail...? im not hoping the enflame anyone, just playing devil's advocate here...
What causes you to believe the KC guys haven't been skewered? I have an abiding respect for Mr. Sullivan, based on pre-KC data. I have nothing but disdain for the KC belts-through-mail thing. I, personally, believe that 90% of learning the martial arts is a kinesthetic feedback experience, and if you do not have a warm body throwing blows at you while you learn to block, then you're learning to dance, not fight. The video instruction and video testing thing cannot possibly provide the tactile information necessary to develop good kenpo skills. But, hey: If I'm ever looking for an easy promotion, I now know of some places to go.

Regards,

Dr. Dave

[Sapper6]

What causes you to believe the KC guys haven't been skewered? I have an abiding respect for Mr. Sullivan, based on pre-KC data. I have nothing but disdain for the KC belts-through-mail thing. I, personally, believe that 90% of learning the martial arts is a kinesthetic feedback experience, and if you do not have a warm body throwing blows at you while you learn to block, then you're learning to dance, not fight. The video instruction and video testing thing cannot possibly provide the tactile information necessary to develop good kenpo skills. But, hey: If I'm ever looking for an easy promotion, I now know of some places to go.

Regards,

Dr. Dave

i think we are on the same page here...i know that Mr. Sullivan & Vic are legitmate martial artists, with very solid backgrounds...i also respect what they have done with their art not straying to far off the path. what i question is, knowing who these guys are, their history, etc, why damage your credibility by jumping on the belts-by-mail bandwagon. as prominent as these guys are, wouldnt you think they know all they are producing are drones capable of going through the motions, not really producing quality martial artists...

[marshallbd]

i think we are on the same page here...i know that Mr. Sullivan & Vic are legitmate martial artists, with very solid backgrounds...i also respect what they have done with their art not straying to far off the path. what i question is, knowing who these guys are, their history, etc, why damage your credibility by jumping on the belts-by-mail bandwagon. as prominent as these guys are, wouldnt you think they know all they are producing are drones capable of going through the motions, not really producing quality martial artists...From what I understand, and I could be very wrong, is that they didn't jump on this band wagon, they built the wagon from scratch! :asian:

[Sapper6]

From what I understand, and I could be very wrong, is that they didn't jump on this band wagon, they built the wagon from scratch! :asian:

...that may be the case, but again, why...?

[marshallbd]

...that may be the case, but again, why...?I bet if you called Mr Leroux he would tell you....His number is on the website.... :asian:

[marshallbd]

I bet if you called Mr Leroux he would tell you....His number is on the website.... :asian:
Just to clarify, I do not study any video tested or non tested course.....just know he answers the phone because I did inquire about it sometime back and spoke with him....He believes the system works....I am still a sceptic. :asian:

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Just to clarify, I do not study any video tested or non tested course.....just know he answers the phone because I did inquire about it sometime back and spoke with him....He believes the system works....I am still a sceptic. :asian:
With all due respects to the men themselves, I will always be a skeptic. I've no doubt that Mr. Sullivan would ring my bell in a heartbeat. I sincerely doubt that a distance learning black belt would even be able to put up a decent fight.

D.

[Sapper6]

With all due respects to the men themselves, I will always be a skeptic. I've no doubt that Mr. Sullivan would ring my bell in a heartbeat. I sincerely doubt that a distance learning black belt would even be able to put up a decent fight.

D.

my point exactly! i've never doubted the MA abilities of the people who operate that way, just the mindset for doing it and i'll always doubt the MA abilities of the people who study that way... :asian:

[edhead2000]

What about systems of Hawaiian/Polynesian fighting systems of the indiginous folks (Samoans and such). Saw WHALE RIDER about New Zealand based Polynesians and there was a component about martial arts/warrior traditions in the Chieftain training part of the movie,
I spent a month in Western Samoa and 3 months in NZ studying anthropology and various sciences. I'm currently doing some research into their traditional fighting systems. I didn't get to learn a whole lot while I was over there because most of that stuff is reserved for men (as you clearly saw in Whale Rider -- excellent movie, btw). I can tell you that what I saw (cultural dances/ceremonies) was amazing.

[loki09789]

I spent a month in Western Samoa and 3 months in NZ studying anthropology and various sciences. I'm currently doing some research into their traditional fighting systems. I didn't get to learn a whole lot while I was over there because most of that stuff is reserved for men (as you clearly saw in Whale Rider -- excellent movie, btw). I can tell you that what I saw (cultural dances/ceremonies) was amazing.

On the History Channel special on Hawaii, there was a section on warrior training (spefic to the royal class/males). It was very interesting how the tie between the cultural/spiritual values and fighting was very tight. A long time ago there was a Martial arts mag article about the various styles (bone crushing, cutting, slashing....)and how they were organized into units during warfare...

I wonder how influencial that Polynesian/Hawaiian cultural spirit was on the CHA-3 Kenpo, Kajukenbo... as they came through and were adopted by the local "Native" Americans along with the Euro-Americans.

At the very least, Guys like Tom Bolden of American Modern Arnis, use to talk about how it raised the intensity bar to work with Samoans (HUGE!) who were still of the tribal/male warrior mentallity.

[Cruentus]

We've been very fortunate that tribal arts in Southeast asia, and islander arts of indonesia, Philipines, and even Hawaii have survived.

I'd be greatly interested in learning Native North American fighting methods, but it seems that most of what I have seen so far that has been advertized looks like a hybrid of something non-native american (like FMA and kenpo) that has just been given a Native "flair," and has been packaged and sold as a native american art. The last thing I'd want to do is train in a watered down version of something that I already study (like FMA) with pseudo-tribal philosephies attached to it. If I learn or explore anything, I want it to be the real deal.

What 7*mantis said here makes a lot of sense to me:


Most of what I got from speaking with different chiefs was that there wasn't one set system, it was basically learn from experience. They started you learning how to use such things as hatchets and you learned to hunt small animals, then bigger ones, then fighting with them. If you didn't learn quick and win, you most likely wouldn't last long and wouldn't be made a warrior.

This coincides with some of the info I've heard as well.

I'd be happy to learn or exchange with someone who, maybe, doesn't have a name for his art but "this is what my grandfather taught me." That would be fine with me.

I can't say for sure that everyone is doing this, but I find it completely disrespectful to re-package an art under a false culteral vail. I'll use a personal example. My Grandfather was an Irish guy who was Golden Gloves Champ in the late 1930's, and he learned how to fight bareknuckle from an old timer who knew the old styles of bareknuckle boxing. I wish I probed his brain more before he passed on, but in reality I have only gotten an hours worth of good advise on fighting from him; advise that caused me to do some of my own research on the old style bareknuckle fighting. However, if I opened up my own program and called it "Irish bare-knuckle and faction fighting" and re-packaged what I know of Modern Arnis and what I know from my boxing/kickboxing days, then I think I'd be doing a diservice to my family heritage as well as my martial arts teachers from whom I would have had to of ripped off and not given credit too. This is the equivelent what it seems like a lot of "Native American" fighting arts have done today.

So, I am willing to check out anyone from whom it would be convienient for me to check out; but I'll have my skeptic hat on when doing so. Remember, if it looks like Kenpo, smells like Kenpo, then it probably isn't a lost native american fighting art.

On that note, has anybody had the chance to check this guy out:
http://members.aol.com/redfeather88/apacheknife/redfeather.htm

Again, I have my skeptic hat on here, but he seems to have been around the block enough where I'd do a seminar if given the opportunity.
:asian:

[marshallbd]

We've been very fortunate that tribal arts in Southeast asia, and islander arts of indonesia, Philipines, and even Hawaii have survived.

I'd be greatly interested in learning Native North American fighting methods, but it seems that most of what I have seen so far that has been advertized looks like a hybrid of something non-native american (like FMA and kenpo) that has just been given a Native "flair," and has been packaged and sold as a native american art. The last thing I'd want to do is train in a watered down version of something that I already study (like FMA) with pseudo-tribal philosephies attached to it. If I learn or explore anything, I want it to be the real deal.

What 7*mantis said here makes a lot of sense to me:



This coincides with some of the info I've heard as well.

I'd be happy to learn or exchange with someone who, maybe, doesn't have a name for his art but "this is what my grandfather taught me." That would be fine with me.

I can't say for sure that everyone is doing this, but I find it completely disrespectful to re-package an art under a false culteral vail. I'll use a personal example. My Grandfather was an Irish guy who was Golden Gloves Champ in the late 1930's, and he learned how to fight bareknuckle from an old timer who knew the old styles of bareknuckle boxing. I wish I probed his brain more before he passed on, but in reality I have only gotten an hours worth of good advise on fighting from him; advise that caused me to do some of my own research on the old style bareknuckle fighting. However, if I opened up my own program and called it "Irish bare-knuckle and faction fighting" and re-packaged what I know of Modern Arnis and what I know from my boxing/kickboxing days, then I think I'd be doing a diservice to my family heritage as well as my martial arts teachers from whom I would have had to of ripped off and not given credit too. This is the equivelent what it seems like a lot of "Native American" fighting arts have done today.

So, I am willing to check out anyone from whom it would be convienient for me to check out; but I'll have my skeptic hat on when doing so. Remember, if it looks like Kenpo, smells like Kenpo, then it probably isn't a lost native american fighting art.

On that note, has anybody had the chance to check this guy out:
http://members.aol.com/redfeather88/apacheknife/redfeather.htm

Again, I have my skeptic hat on here, but he seems to have been around the block enough where I'd do a seminar if given the opportunity.
:asian:His DVD looks interesting...