Sexuality

[GouRonin]

I was on another forum and there was a post regarding an instructor who was openly gay but recently several students felt that he was coming onto them. Some did not care and some were deeply troubled by it.

So, here's a few questions. Should there be sexual relationships in the dojo? How do people feel about homosexuality and the martial arts?

Myself, I could care less if someone is gay or not, that's their thing and as long as it doesn't bother me I'm ok with it.

As for the relationship thingy I think they are dangerous for the student teacher aspect but for students themselves I don't see as much a problem.

Thoughts?:confused:

[Cthulhu]

A student's or instructor's sexuality really would matter little to me, as long as things are kept professional and respectful.

A student/instructor relationship has the potential for disaster written all over. The danger of favoritism and bias will always be present, and the other students may suspect these things are happening, whether they are or not, leading to resentment.

However, it all depends on the maturity and professionalism of the people involved. If such a relationship did occur, as I'm sure they often do, I would suggest discretion for a period of time before revealing the relationship to the rest of the school. This could help dispel any suspicion of favoritism.

Sort of on the same topic, my instructor became involved (coincidentally) with a student's ex-girlfriend. This led to much resentment on the student's part, so much so that he left the school. That was a shame, since he was fairly promising. I think the immaturity of the student was the major problem in this case, however, as he was fairly young and emotional.

Cthulhu

[GouRonin]

I think students and instructors should shy away from relationships other than a professional one. Perhaps higher ranking students maybe. I dunno.

Dating the yellow belts is a real past time in some schools. The problem comes when to comes time to test. You can see all the problems that arise.

Myself, I think that the dojo is where you work out. Not pick up babes. Leave that for outside the school. Or at least have some strict rules in place. Some kind of guide line.:rolleyes:

[Bob Hubbard]

I really don't have a problem with working with straight or gay instructors or students...just as long as they don't offer to help me with my cup. ;)

Relationships....well, thats complex. 2 students dating, i guess thats ok, but an instructor dating a student I think is a bad idea. As was said, it leads to feelings of favortism, etc, unless it's handled carefully.

Course, on the other hand....since we spend all day in the training room, where else we gonna pick up gals/guys? Its real hard to impress the counterhelp at BK with the "Look how good I can go 'HiYA!'" thing. :D

[GouRonin]

As much as I love BK, and I really do. Most of their counter help is jailbait to me.

It's true though. Martial Arts instructors have it tough. But if you think about it, it isn't hard. I have a personal policy to not date people I work with. From when i was working as a doorman at a club to my current job I have only once dated someone I work with. I can't even begin to describe the horror that came of it. The problem is that unless it is long term then you are bound to have problems.

My wife I met while I was at work and refused to date her until she went to another company. While I did meet her at work I stuck with my policy and things went well. I used to meet tons of people doing other stuff. I think that it means people might have to go outsaide what they do and be a little more well rounded in their lives.

BUT!

I'm not anyone to be telling people how to live. Just offering my opinion.

[Cthulhu]

Ugh...I once made the mistake of dating someone from work, my supervisor, no less. Bad idea. Bad. Don't recommend it. What the hell was I thinking?

Were I to have a school of my own, with assistant instructors, I would not forbid dating students, but I would strongly discourage it. If a student/instructor relationship were to happen, I would probably insist that it remain discreet until I thought it was safe for the other students to know.

Now, if the people in question were dating previous to training together, the situation becomes more sticky. I would probably try to have someone else training the student if at all possible. If not possible, then I guess I'd just have to cross my fingers and hope for the best.

Ultimately, it isn't something we can control, nor have the right to, really. People is people and hormones is hormones. Hopefully, the people involved would be mature and professional enough to behave accordingly while in class.

Cthulhu

[GouRonin]

My instructor has ex-students who now are strippers and one or two do porn movies.

Makes for really interesting reunions.:eek:

[Bob Hubbard]

Really? :)

heh...martial arts porn..... now thats a, um, scary idea.... :D

[Rob_Broad]

I met my wife in the club where we were training together, I was just a student there that ended up teaching more than getting lessons, but I refuse to work with her group. That way I could not be called biased or accused of favoritism. If anything I was harder on her when we trained at home thanI was when I did private lessons with people.

We dated for 6 months before we told anyone about it. No one knew why I didn't want to teach that group of students. Everybody just figured I want to work with the white belts only. When we told everyone that we were dating no one had a problem, they knew I would not show her favoritism. Eventually we got engaged, bought the school we were training in and are now married.

Realtionships in the Dojo can be very dangerous, I do not recommend them but who am I to say what is right. I went against what I normally tell people, but I set up a wall to protect both us fi it went sour.

[Rob_Broad]

I want to study KENPORN to where do I sign up?

My wife said it was okay as long as I don't enjoy myself.

[Bob Hubbard]

I am -not- gonna ask about the "hand forms".

:shrug:

[GouRonin]

I do this form valled "long 9" and man, is it pretty.
:rofl:

[Bob Hubbard]

Let me guess though.....ya stopped "short" before ya got the the end?

:rofl:

[Despairbear]

Homosexuality in martial arts? Who cares..... It is a non-issue.

Relationships in the Dojo?

Out of the question, I feel that a dojo is a place to train and nothing more. My girlfriend and I train together in several types of martial arts but the moment we enter the dojo our relationship stops and she is just another student and I would not dream of making a pass at her. The Sensei/Student relationship should be one of respect and knowlage if some one is interested in someone they train with the most resonable course of action is to meet such a person outside of the dojo in a more normal setting.



Despair Bear

[Bob Hubbard]

I think as long as the relationships are kept to a professional level, its ok. But favortism, etc is wrong, regardless of the 'reason'.

[GouRonin]

I could care less myself, as long as the person teaching is competent but for a lot of people and parents it IS an issue even though it probably shouldn't be.

And I agree with your statement about walking into the dojo.

[bscastro]

Greetings,

This is actually my first post here. In any case, I think sexual orientation shouldn't matter as long as there is respect for students and teachers alike. It is just a matter of personal comfort level I suppose.

As for teacher student relationships, again I think this is a personal decision. Unlike say college professors and their students, the "rules" for teacher/student relationships in martial arts classes I think are more set by the teacher himself. I guess as long as it doesn't interfere with the teacher's effectiveness to teach, it shouldn't really matter. However, I have seen a couple cases where the student who is dating the teacher feels they can have certain privileges, but in both cases, the teacher handled it well.

[GouRonin]

Is it so wrong to just really want the babes?
:moon:

[Bob Hubbard]

Actually, yes.... if thats the SOLE reason for being there. I've been to at least 1 school where it always seemed like the head instructor was dating a student, ot thier mom.

Guess who aced their tests and got other favorable treatment?

Wasn't a pretty picture. :(

[GouRonin]

When I was boxing it was ok to get the babes.

Of course then there was only one or two belts and everyone wanted them. Then once you got it you have to prove you could keep it.
:asian:

[Despairbear]

There are singles clubs to looks for "chicks" a dojo is for training nothing else.




Despair Bear

[girlychuks]

As a 25 year old beginner woman in the martial arts, I have to say, that it is better to keep it all in the pants and let the sexual energy reinforce your Ki.
I have been wondering about this recently- if you don't have strong resolve, I think there is a bit of potential for trouble- after all, you are getting grabbed, thrown, and hugged.
Dating within the dojo seems just way out of whack- I am not sure how I would deal with going to bed with someone, then getting up and sparring with them the next day (there are not many women in my dojo so gender separated sparring is out of the question)
So in my humble female opinion, it's cooler to just keep it under wraps and REALLY enjoy the throws and takedowns.:kiss:

[girlychuks]

PS
Martial arts porn?
LOL - I am off to register the domain dirtydojo.com for my future moneymaker. I can't imagine the tournament events!!

Never looking at my nunchuku the same way again-Cathy

[Cthulhu]

I never really considered getting involved with anybody in my instructor's school. I think mostly because, as his highest ranking student, I was in effect his assistant instructor, so I knew any kind've funny business would have probably ended poorly. Now that I'm happily married, the point is moot :D That is, unless my wife ever decided to seriously train with me. I'd be in a pickle, then.



Originally posted by girlychuks
Never looking at my nunchuku the same way again-Cathy

:erg:
Um, I think you've inadvertantly (or not :)) planted a very distracting image in the heads of many of the board's members. CENSOR! Oh, Censor!

Ahem. We now return you to your regularly scheduled forum.

Cthulhu

[Bob Hubbard]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by girlychuks
Never looking at my nunchuku the same way again-Cathy
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Um, I think you've inadvertantly (or not ) planted a very distracting image in the heads of many of the board's members. CENSOR! Oh, Censor!


Oh man...there was this 1 cartoon...."Offenders of the Universe"... a real BAD! star trek/wars clone.....

They had a very special set of nunchuku...and I won't mention the sword.....

:rofl:

Thank you for the images.... :D

[GouRonin]

Hey, I have no problem punching anyone in the mouth. Heck, most of my friends I HAVE punched in the mouth. That's why they're my friends. I used to date a girl when I was boxing who liked to spar with me. Nothing like having her rabbit punch my kidneys when I didn't want to get up for work.

[Bob Hubbard]

I can relate....My SO -LOVES- nailing me in the kidneys......:shrug:

But, leaping back to the original topic.... Its hard to seperate the 2, especially if youre single and your entire social life -is- the dojo. My SO and I go to some of the same schools. We try to not work together there, cuz its distracting for us both. Plus, she's not too keen on sparing, and I can't get enough, so it tends to not work well that way. heh

[Rob_Broad]

I really have no problem with anyone's sexual orientation. I just know that a flamboyant homosexuak as a teacher would not be a good thing for that business.

I don'tthink it is right for instructors to use their facilities as a dating pool. I know an instructor who every 5 yrs or so moulds a young lady into exactly what he is looking for. I say he does this every 5 yrs because after they have been in the hospital a couple times the start to wizen up.

Offenders of the Universe - I don't want to touch that one even with Gou hands.

Gou I'll still be your friend, you don't have to punch me in the mouth.

[Kroy]

Being gay shouldnt have any bearing on teaching, as long as the teacher is proffesional and knows their MA well.
Instructors should know better than to date students it sets a bad example for the school. But if the instructor really wants to be with a student, just make her quit and teach her at home for free.:shrug:

[theletch1]

Dating in the school is a definite no-no. Especially if one of the two doing the dating is married!! seen this a time or two. makes for a very uncomfortable training situation..., especially if the other married person is in the class as well and for some reason seems to have blinders on.

[Jill666]

It's fun! Why make it into a big deal, or dip your pen where it don't belong. Just enjoy it, it's there, we all know it's there, and dammit, it's fun. :p

It stinks when people don't realize that dating in work OR the dojo aren't likely to work out. I have never seen it NOT get ugly, and if there really is something there worth exploring, a lot of discretion has to be employed.

Just get sweaty, look at those pecs, and grin.

As for homosexuality vs. heterosexuality, I couldn't care less. In work, in training, in friendship. Same rules apply. :shrug:

[Matt Stone]

Y'know Jill, the more you post, the more I read, the more I like your viewpoints!

We are adults (well, most of us anyway), and when adults get together in groups in social situations, things happen. Chemistry starts bubbling, folks start sniffing the pheromones, and interest is piqued.

Deal with it.

You can either give in and turn into a train wreck later, or tough it out, enjoy the flirting, and remember what you are there to do.

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:

[cali_tkdbruin]

Well, here's my two pennies worth...

I wouldn't give a rat's ass about about an instructor's sexual orientation as long as he/she maintained their professionalism in the dojang. What an instructor or student do in their lives outside the dojang is nobody's business as along as they're not commiting crimes.

As far as an instructor dating a student goes, that can get messy. IMHO, it's in an instructor's best interest not to date their students. It's the same thing as a manager dating one of his/her employees, or a professor dating one of his/her college students. Doing it is just asking for trouble, so it's always best not to date your subordinates.

And students dating students is also a bad idea, but,what can a school do? You cannot outlaw it. Inevitably, when a break up
between the love birds occurs, it makes it awkward I'm sure to go into the training hall and seeing your EX there day in and day out. So, IMO, it's best not to date other students or your co-workers for that matter. To me the dojang should only be a place to train in the Arts and nothing more. And that means it's no pick up joint, club, bar, etc... :asian:

[Quick Sand]

When it comes to dating in the dojang I don't think I would do it myself but I do know one success story. I'm not sure if they were both students when they first started dating, but now he's a 2nd degree Black Belt and she's a 3rd or 2rd gyup brown belt. In otherwords he's an instructor and she's a student. They're completely 100% professional in class and you would never know they were together if you didn't know them outside of class. Now they're getting married next month. :D

[Nightingale]

Personally, I don't care whether my instructor is gay, straight, or somewhere in between. what matters is whether they're a good instructor. Who they're sleeping with is not only irrelevant, its not my business.

[Michael Billings]

I concur! Usually the instructor / student relationship has something to do with authority figure transference, identification with the aggressor, and a perceived care taker/teacher role. Is that psychobabble enough for you?

Just like a professor taking advantage of a graduate student (happens all the time) there is a power disparity seldom perceived by the party with less power. They experience it as an attraction. The instructor often has no idea how he or she affects their students, how important we are in their lives, or how they perceive us, consciously or subconsciously. We often have little training in this area and respond when we are flirted with.

On the other side, I have seen instructors taking advantage of this subconscious attraction/identification/transferrance and moving through students like they were dating back in high school or college.

Normal healthy relationships can be initiated in the dojo, school, studio, kwoon, or dojang - and they can work out. But there are many more where Senior students "date" people who are attracted to "what" they are rather than "who."

I am speaking from personal experience and observations over 30 years of martial arts. It is better not to seek sexual partners or a mate from the ranks, don't rule it out, but realize the repurcussions could get you kicked out of an Association (seen it), alienated from other students, teachers, and friends (been there), or in actual legal trouble (I have missed this bullet.) It is just smarter not to mess where you have to live, especially when things don't work out and it gets tense or hostile in the school.

And yes .. flirting is fun and I like it lots, but you gotta know when to draw the line, and not leave it up to the student. I could only wish we were all adults. A silly supposition at best, a dangerous one if you really believe it.

Oss,
-Michael

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Cthulhu
A student's or instructor's sexuality really would matter little to me, as long as things are kept professional and respectful.

A student/instructor relationship has the potential for disaster written all over. The danger of favoritism and bias will always be present, and the other students may suspect these things are happening, whether they are or not, leading to resentment.

However, it all depends on the maturity and professionalism of the people involved. If such a relationship did occur, as I'm sure they often do, I would suggest discretion for a period of time before revealing the relationship to the rest of the school. This could help dispel any suspicion of favoritism.

Sort of on the same topic, my instructor became involved (coincidentally) with a student's ex-girlfriend. This led to much resentment on the student's part, so much so that he left the school. That was a shame, since he was fairly promising. I think the immaturity of the student was the major problem in this case, however, as he was fairly young and emotional.

Cthulhu
I agree

Look at Bruce Lee, he had a relationship but it didn't bother his students.

[jfarnsworth]

I'm another one who could care less who does what with whom. It's none of my business what other people do with their sexuality. As long as everything stays cool in the studio then I have no problems.:asian:

[MartialArtsGuy]

I agree with Kaith. In the dojo its time to put foot to @ss. :asian:

[Rob_Broad]

I guess I am one of the very lucky ones. I met my wife by accidentally kicking her in the back of the head; she walked into a sparring matched and got lightly touched. We went out for drinks after class with about 20 of the other students and it just clicked from there.

She has never got any increase in rank from our being together, she has probably been judged too harshly because she was with me, but we have have both accepted it.

[Jill666]

Well it seems you are exceptional (note I didn't say "special" :D ).

I'm sure there are other success stories and when something is meant to be that can transcend everything else. But more often in-house relationships get going for other reasons, and that's when ugliness happens. :shrug:

Michael also spoke about exploitation (conscious or unintentional) , that's the worst case scenario, and all-too-common. Power equations in relationships sure can be a minefield. Being human, it really isn't easy to completely compartmentalize relationships, and being people we just don't stay in our compartments, we keep trying to get out.

Case in point, as sexual orientation was an origional question of this thread: my co-worker is gay, and his lover has friends visiting for a few days from Wisconsin. The lover isn't out of the closet at home, with either old friends OR his family. So my colleague is being a heterosexual friend. He is trying to act as butch as possible, and trying not to gesture. He has moved out for the week, so he is out of his home. He brought a girl we work with out to dinner with this group, as though they were involved. Now one man's secret has involved two other people. The next day after the group dinner, my co-worker was exhausted and depressed from being someone he isn't, for the sake of someone he loves, who won't admit they are involved.

Keep it simple- jeez. Work is for working, the dojo is for fighting, if you want to get laid, go to a party. If you meet someone special, grab on like grim death and tell everyone you know, so they can be jealous.

[lost_tortoise]

Sexual orientation should not be an issue in the kwoon/dojo. Nor should dating. I do not consider the study of combat arts to be a hobby, it is a lifestyle. It is often hard work. Work and relationships should be mutually exclusive. I don't even like working with friends, much less someone I am dating. Instructors and students? Outta the question! Too many authority issues. Students and students? Never seen one work out....and I've done it!!! My amendment to that last statement would be a strong relationship (ie. marriage) before training together. I say this because my wife and I train together as equals when we train together. The last kwoon in which I trained, instructor/student relationships were forbidden and I approved of that policy. Now, the question of sexual tension in a co-ed training environment is a whole other issue. There are some who say that males and females should never train together. I disagree, for a lot of reasons. However, sexual tension cannot be avoided...with the possible exception of eunuchs (do they train in combat? quarterstaff, perhaps?)

[KenpoTess]

We've had some experiences with students dating each other.. subsequently breaking up and that was a loss of a student, which was unfortunate for the one leaving and for us as a business. We not only lost a student but a friend.
We have a few couples as students now mostly college kids. One joined initially and brought their girlfriend/boyfriend into join. I think it's great up to a point. I do have some issues with some of them showing 'affection' during class, kissing etc should be done outside the studio in my humble opinion.

Being Seig and I are married does go to show couples can train together :) It's great having commonalities in any relationship.

As far as Homosexuality.. who's to know unless the person states their sexuality preference? If they are a good instructor or student.. well who cares which way they wanna go..
With the way Males students bond at our studio .. ya begin to wonder about em all *G*

[Cliarlaoch]

Originally posted by Quick Sand
When it comes to dating in the dojang I don't think I would do it myself but I do know one success story. I'm not sure if they were both students when they first started dating, but now he's a 2nd degree Black Belt and she's a 3rd or 2rd gyup brown belt. In otherwords he's an instructor and she's a student. They're completely 100% professional in class and you would never know they were together if you didn't know them outside of class. Now they're getting married next month. :D


I can verify that... Well, sometimes you can tell, but it's not obvious, and they're not going out of their way to play favourites (in fact, the black belt works the brown belt extra hard just to ensure that they aren't playing favourites with each other).

I've also dated a fellow student in a dojang, but when the relationship ended, we remained friends, and it didn't tear the dojang apart. Personal relationships aren't always a bad thing... and besides, as Jill noted, there's nothing wrong with flirting... as long as you are aware of the risks in going further than flirting, you should be okay.

As to homosexuality, I don't think the sexual orientation of any individual should have any impact on their ability to teach, and I am comfortable enough with my own orientation to believe that it doesn't matter what you are, straight or gay, in the martial arts, in working together, etc. It doesn't bug me. Long rant, I know, said before, I know, good to repeat, you know. :P

[Elfan]

Sexual Orientation? Don't care.

Relationships between students? Not something I would recommend but hey it makes life interesting.

Instructors and students? Bad idea. Would you date your college professors? High school teachers? Not a smart idea for either party. Some instructors seem to have issues with appropriate age for relationships (i.e. young teenagers are not okay when 20 some things) but that's a different topic.

[TKDman]

So this is why there is no authentic japanese martial arts training in the united states!

POLITICS SUCK!

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by TKDman
So this is why there is no authentic japanese martial arts training in the united states!

POLITICS SUCK!

How do you equate an alleged lack of authentic Japanese martial arts with politics? You should visit Japan sometime... Plenty of politics to be had by all.

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian: