Spin Techniques

[Zoran]

So what's your opinion? Are spin techniques, and I don't mean the jump spinning hook kick, are they of any use in self defense?

If not, why do you think so?

If yes, when would it be usefull?

I'd love to here the pros and cons.

[8253]

I believe that spin techniques can be usefull, such as a spinning backfist if someone hits you from behind. but as far as trying to spin around in a face to face fight i dont believe that i would try it then. Spinning techniques can be very powerful but turning you back on an opponent could turn out disastrous even if just for a second. It would just be too easy to step in on someone trying to turn for a spinning technique making you to close to be able to connect properly. It can also be a balance problem if someone were to step towards you while you are turning.

[loki09789]

In general, I agree with the 6 o'clock counter attack application of spin tech's as the most reasonable:

Trained repitition/reproduction of spin tech's will mean you will do it in the 'street' out of habit - possibly ignoring/disregarding terrain or environmental considerations (Slippery ground, ice, gravel....)

the flip is that if you are concentrating on NOT doing it because you know it is too risky for the environment, you could be distracted/inhibit your training, thus interrupting your mental/physical flow.

Spin tech's are fantastic for the development of core/trunk strength and coordination/balance.... so I see benefits to it in training, but only if it is contextually/tactically aligned (fits in the right place) for your stylist/'fight' goals.

[MJS]

I've done them many times, both in training and in sparring. I do feel however, that they need to be set up before they are executed. Otherwise, there is a very good chance that they can be seen coming, and thereby jammed.


Mike

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

I've used them in sparring and fights, but still prefer to just cover and face the guy. In sparring, I'll use them in "unexpected" ways...start a spinning back kick, but leave the leg low to bring up as a roundhouse from the opposite side than typically expected from a spinning attack. In a fight? I'd rather sit on the chest and pound sand.

[rschoon]

I used to do some spinning techs in sparring but as I grow older, I find that I am not nearly as fast as I was in the past therefore the spins pretty much stay i my toolbox. (even though I do still try on occasion to remind myself of my newly acquired shortcomings.)

Rick :uhyeah:

[RHD]

Turning your back in a self defense situation (or any martial situation) is never a good idea.
Mike

[j.c. murphy]

My knee-jerk response is the same as RHD's; never turn your back. However, and there is always a however in life, if you are going against an uncooperative person; you may have a technique jammed or otherwise be forced into a situation might not only be valid, but may be the best choice.

The chance of this should be low and turning should not be a first option, so I would limit it's practice to a very small percentage of my training time. (Less than 5% should be allocated to this type of technique)

[Zoran]

My knee-jerk response is the same as RHD's; never turn your back. However, and there is always a however in life....

As MA-ists, we train for the "howevers" of life.

I do agree that purposely turning your back on an attacker is not advisable. But as j.c. murphy states, there are time when you may be forced to do this.

Being jammed up where a spin can get you out.
Being attacked from behind.
Also against multiple attackers when you are flanked. A spin followed by proper footwork can get you out of the "hot" zone.

What would not be advisable is to try to catch someone with a spin in a self defense situation just for the sake of doing it, leaves you open to Murphies Law to kick in. Sparring is different as there are rules there and it should be used as a training tool for self defense. So trying out a spin could be okay there, just to get some practice in.

[KanoLives]

I prefer straight 1-2's over a spinning attack. But as most have already said they have there pros and cons. If I do a spin attack I usually set it up with a few quick jabs followed by a spinning back fist. No foot movement though only pivioting to allow the torso and hips to open for a little more power.

BTW are we only talking about hand strikes or spin kicks as well?

[Zoran]

BTW are we only talking about hand strikes or spin kicks as well?

Since we are at the self defense section of the forum, I would say mostly hand strikes or elbows. Sparring and self defense are two different worlds.

[Makalakumu]

Spinning techniques are like any techniques. There are no magic wands in fighting. I use spinning techniques to get myself out of bad situations. When someone flanks you, one on one or as a multiple person situation, a 180 spin technique with either hand or foot might just correct the situation. In my opinion, this is the niche for spin techniques, not one on one face to face sparring situations. It drives me crazy when I see people lead with spinning techniques. They sure look cool, but any lead punch or kick will beat it to the punch. I love it when you can use them correctly though. Your opponent gets to a blind side and thinks they have you and wham and your on to the next guy...

[MichiganTKD]

Every technique, whether spinning, jumping, flying, or whatever, has its place in self defense. There are some techniques that are more practical than others, a greater likelihood that they would be useful. But, yes, even spinning and jumping kicks can be used in the right situation.
I tend to agree. In a situation with more than one opponent, especially where you need to keep moving and motion is a factor, I could definitely see spinning techniques as being useful. But yes, not leading with one. Only as a defensive move.

[Rick Wade]

In a sparring situation if you are fast enough OK

In a true self-defense situation you would generally not want to turn your back on your opponent even for a second. Hopefully you have assessed the situation for other adversaries

Thanks

[2fisted]

I gotta say no. They take too much time and your back gets turned. Bad idea.

[Brother John]

So what's your opinion? Are spin techniques, and I don't mean the jump spinning hook kick, are they of any use in self defense?

If not, why do you think so?

If yes, when would it be usefull?

I'd love to here the pros and cons.

"Come on Baaaaby.....Lets do tha twist....."

PROS:
1. Unexpected. Much as leaping to the floor and dragging yer keester across the floor like a dog with worms would be unexpected.
2. Spinning in a circle (when done right) builds momentum. BUT if you follow this line of reasoning to it's logical conclusion.... keep spinning....think of all that momentum. :uhyeah:
3. Spinning is Great....for turning to run. "Choke'm in heel dust!"

Cons:
1. Telegraphing. ("I'm going to try to strike you now! If you'd like to time it, it will most likely be delivered when my side turns all the way around and is near you again...until then...have fun, cuz I won't be able to see you for a moment.")
2. BACK TO YOUR OPPONENT. (this is also a PRO, just for your opponent...not you)
3. There's better ways to generate momentum/force, ways that don't present your kidneys and base of your skull to the person you are fighting and don't force.
4. It forces you to raise (generally) your center of gravity under a momentarily narrower base. (it's easier to 'spin' on a small circle rather than a large)

As you may guess....I suggest throwing the tactic of "Spinning" out the window.
Your Brother
John

[MichiganTKD]

Keep in mind: ANY technique can work if you practice it every day, study it, and learn its applications. One thing I've noticed: the people who claim it would never work are the ones who don't really practice it (i.e. the Kenpo people, BJJ practitioners, and grapplers). Don't dismiss a technique because you don't practice it.

[MJS]

Keep in mind: ANY technique can work if you practice it every day, study it, and learn its applications. One thing I've noticed: the people who claim it would never work are the ones who don't really practice it (i.e. the Kenpo people, BJJ practitioners, and grapplers). Don't dismiss a technique because you don't practice it.

I wont speak for all Kenpo people, but I practice certain spinning kicks. I've actually had success with them in the sparring ring, but I really dont think I'd do one on the street. Again, everybody is different. The BJJ guys will most likely focus on a front kick and round house kicks, especially to the legs.

As I've said before, everything has its place and time. I just dont think that in a life and death fight that thats the place for a jump spinning back kick, while I might be wearing a suit, tie shoes. Now, if I had a gi that I could change into...well that might be a different story!! :boing2:

Mike

[MichiganTKD]

That's why when I go get sized for a suit, I make sure it's loose in the legs. Nothing worse than pants that bind me up down there! I heard that's one of the definitions of a hard core martial artist-buying clothes based on how well you can kick in them.

[MJS]

That's why when I go get sized for a suit, I make sure it's loose in the legs. Nothing worse than pants that bind me up down there! I heard that's one of the definitions of a hard core martial artist-buying clothes based on how well you can kick in them.

Well, everybody has their choice of what they like to do for kicks. Personally, I find it much more effective to do a kick to the groin or a Thai kick to the leg instead of trying to do a fancy move. Short, simple and to the point!!!

And as for hardcore....I've been training for 17yrs and I'm still going. I'd say thats pretty hard core!!!

Mike

[RHD]

Keep in mind: ANY technique can work if you practice it every day, study it, and learn its applications. One thing I've noticed: the people who claim it would never work are the ones who don't really practice it (i.e. the Kenpo people, BJJ practitioners, and grapplers). Don't dismiss a technique because you don't practice it.

One thing I've noticed is that the only people who think it they'll work are those that practice them, but never really test it in anything other than a highly controlled environment with lots of rules for "safety". Also, better stare practicing that spinning whoopty kick with regular pants and shoes on, perhaps a winter parka as well. Otherwise, you're gonna get a big surprise when you're on your way to the car in the parking lot in mid winter and those 3 punks decide they want your wallet and your face.

Mike

[MJS]

One thing I've noticed is that the only people who think it they'll work are those that practice them, but never really test it in anything other than a highly controlled environment with lots of rules for "safety". Also, better stare practicing that spinning whoopty kick with regular pants and shoes on, perhaps a winter parka as well. Otherwise, you're gonna get a big surprise when you're on your way to the car in the parking lot in mid winter and those 3 punks decide they want your wallet and your face.

Mike

Thank you!!!! Those are my thoughts exactly!!!!! I'd like to see a woman in a dress and high heels do a jump spinning kick!!LOL! What is she gonna say, "Hang on a minute Mr. Mugger, while I take my shoes off so I can kick your a**."

Mike

[MJS]

That's why when I go get sized for a suit, I make sure it's loose in the legs. Nothing worse than pants that bind me up down there! I heard that's one of the definitions of a hard core martial artist-buying clothes based on how well you can kick in them.

Dude, its still no comparison due to the fact that you're talking about 2 different types of material. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, but answer this. What do you do about jeans? I've never heard about anyone getting specially fit jeans.

Mike

[MichiganTKD]

I wear loose jeans especially because I want to be able to kick in them should the need arise. But back to the point. I never said spinning or jumping were always useful. They have their place. Of course you probably wouldn't use them in the middle of winter when it is icy outside and you're wearing thick clothes.
You know, grapplers and certain hard stylists (BJJ, Thai Boxers etc.) think they have the market cornered as far as self defense. They have this preconceived notion that only their techniques would work outside. Don't forget, Tae Kwon Do developed as self defense. I would rank traditional Tae Kwon Do as effective as anything they do.
I also believe that, in the right situation, a well executed spin or jump kick outside could put some serious pain on an attacker. Not every situation calls for it. Otherwise I would use a front or side kick. Or maybe an elbow in close. There are many things I could do. That's the beauty of it.

[MJS]

I wear loose jeans especially because I want to be able to kick in them should the need arise. But back to the point. I never said spinning or jumping were always useful. They have their place. Of course you probably wouldn't use them in the middle of winter when it is icy outside and you're wearing thick clothes.

I have no problem kicking in the jeans I wear either, but as I said, I focus mainly on low line kicks.


You know, grapplers and certain hard stylists (BJJ, Thai Boxers etc.) think they have the market cornered as far as self defense. They have this preconceived notion that only their techniques would work outside. Don't forget, Tae Kwon Do developed as self defense. I would rank traditional Tae Kwon Do as effective as anything they do.

Come on now. You're not just saying that because you know that they dominate on the ground and that there is a very good chance that they'd eat a TKD for lunch!! And as for their techs. working outside, yes they do! If you watch Gracie In Action, you'll see many fights on hard floors, outside on the ground, and on the beach, so I'd say that they do work!! As for the effectiveness of the SD....I've seen some good stuff. I also train in a few other arts as well, so I have a wide variety of things to pick from. I have to say though, that I've seen some TKD guys spar, and honestly, I was not impressed at all. Someone with good hand skills would eat them up.


I also believe that, in the right situation, a well executed spin or jump kick outside could put some serious pain on an attacker. Not every situation calls for it. Otherwise I would use a front or side kick. Or maybe an elbow in close. There are many things I could do. That's the beauty of it.

I'm sure a well executed spin or jump kick could cause some pain, I never said they wouldnt.

Mike

[RHD]

Not every situation calls for it. Otherwise I would use a front or side kick. Or maybe an elbow in close. There are many things I could do. That's the beauty of it.

I'm just curious, how often do you train those elbows at close range in your TKD class? My guess would be not often. It's not to say that elbows aren't used in TKD, but they certainly aren't stressed in most schools. Spinning kicks however, are. I subscribe to the "you fight like you train" philosophy.
Mike

[MichiganTKD]

I never said Gracie JJ or Thai Boxing wouldn't work, only that they are not the only techniques that would. I understand full well that these styles train primarily for self defense. What I said was that they seem to think they have the market cornered on self defense. They do not. The spinning and jumping kicks of Tae Kwon Do get a lot of publicity because they are nice to watch. They are not the only techniques we do. I can't speak for all TKD schools, but we emphasize the basics-front, side etc. Don't forget, different styles approach different situations in different ways. I'm curious as to how a grappler would handle 2-3 attackers at once. The beauty of TKD is that it is designed for these type of situations. Traditional TKD is made for situations where the defender is at a disadvantage (i.e. woman vs. man, smaller vs. bigger, 1 vs. 2,3,4 etc.). In a situation where you need to be able to move, say 1 vs. 2, I think jumping and spinning techniques are definitely possible to use. I didn't say you SHOULD use them, I said it would be possible to use them.
And yes, we do train with elbows and similar techniques for one-step, drills etc. We don't use them in sparring because of the danger of accidents, but we do use them.

[MJS]

[quote]I never said Gracie JJ or Thai Boxing wouldn't work, only that they are not the only techniques that would. I understand full well that these styles train primarily for self defense. What I said was that they seem to think they have the market cornered on self defense. They do not.

And I can name a few myself that think the same thing. I'd wager that anyone could talk to any MA, and they would all say that their system is the best. Why would anyone want to say that they have a flaw in their style?


The spinning and jumping kicks of Tae Kwon Do get a lot of publicity because they are nice to watch. They are not the only techniques we do. I can't speak for all TKD schools, but we emphasize the basics-front, side etc. Don't forget, different styles approach different situations in different ways.

Sure, there are lots of things in many arts that are nice to watch. But, I kind of look at it like this. If its something that you'd not use in an SD situation, then why train it that hard? Sure, there are things in Kenpo that I have to do due to the fact that its part of the rank material, but there are other things that I give more attn. to.


I'm curious as to how a grappler would handle 2-3 attackers at once. The beauty of TKD is that it is designed for these type of situations. Traditional TKD is made for situations where the defender is at a disadvantage (i.e. woman vs. man, smaller vs. bigger, 1 vs. 2,3,4 etc.). In a situation where you need to be able to move, say 1 vs. 2, I think jumping and spinning techniques are definitely possible to use. I didn't say you SHOULD use them, I said it would be possible to use them.

Ahh...the ground vs mult attacker debate. Well, like I've said many times before. Not every fight you have is going to be against mult. attackers. Grappling can infact be used....only difference is that it'll be done standing. If you can grab onto an attacker, use him as a shield against the others, while at the same time, pounding the s**t out of him..well, there ya go!!!

I often wonder about people that make those statements. My counter is usually, "What makes the stand up arts any better at taking care of that situation?" Keep in mind, we're not talking about a Van Damm movie, where the attackers come at you one at a time. Instead, it'll be more like 2 or 3 at a time. Now, you'd really want to turn your back and try a kick in a situation like that? Good luck.


And yes, we do train with elbows and similar techniques for one-step, drills etc. We don't use them in sparring because of the danger of accidents, but we do use them.

Unfortunately, going all out requires some pretty heavy padding. But, I suppose that if you want to train some full power shots, you're gonna need the proper gear.

Mike

[Zoran]

I was sort of hoping that we would start thinking outside the box. Let's not turn this into the old "mine is bigger than yours" debate.

But since nobody mentioned it, except for MJS in passing;


If you can grab onto an attacker, use him as a shield against the others, while at the same time, pounding the s**t out of him..well, there ya go!!!


The same principles of a spin, using proper footwork, can be used to maneuver a person as a shield or throw them into another attacker by manipulating their body while executing a proper spin (cross step then torque).

A spin tech, can is used more than just with a spinning backfist or a kick. It really comes down to how and when you execute it and with what technique.

Necessity is the mother of invention. The needs of a confrontation dictates what we use for self defense. So don't just see "spin tech" and automatically think about sparring. Stop, think and analyze. Because when you need these things later, you won't have time to do that then.

[MJS]

I was sort of hoping that we would start thinking outside the box. Let's not turn this into the old "mine is bigger than yours" debate.

But since nobody mentioned it, except for MJS in passing;



The same principles of a spin, using proper footwork, can be used to maneuver a person as a shield or throw them into another attacker by manipulating their body while executing a proper spin (cross step then torque).

A spin tech, can is used more than just with a spinning backfist or a kick. It really comes down to how and when you execute it and with what technique.

Necessity is the mother of invention. The needs of a confrontation dictates what we use for self defense. So don't just see "spin tech" and automatically think about sparring. Stop, think and analyze. Because when you need these things later, you won't have time to do that then.

Good point!! :asian: Yeah, I guess this thread did get a little off the track. I see your point though. If you look at Aikido, the majority of that art contains lots of circular footwork, while at the same time, having their opp. move in one direction, and then suddenly and violently change to another.

Footwork is definately an important thing, that is often overlooked. As long as you know where you're spinning and it doesnt put you in a bad position, why not do it.

Mike

[MJS]

I never said Gracie JJ or Thai Boxing wouldn't work, only that they are not the only techniques that would. I understand full well that these styles train primarily for self defense. What I said was that they seem to think they have the market cornered on self defense. They do not.

Actually, if you think about it, after the first UFC, considering the sudden surge in people wanting to learn grappling or more about it...well, I think at that time they had the market cornered. They opened up peoples eyes to the fact that knowing how to fight on the ground is an important aspect of SD.

Mike