UFC & PRIDE What is your opinion?

[Jason Davis]

UFC , Pride FC, ect.

What is your opinion of these types of "no holds barred" fighting competitions?

[Jason Davis]

my own personal opinion is that they are not very "no holds barred", and that not very much technique is used in them it's just kind of a sport for brawlers.

Also shouldn't they be able to strike harder than they do with all that training?
just a thought
:)

[Chicago Green Dragon]

I always have to laugh when i hear that term

"no holds barred" fighting competitions

It sounds like but its not.

They keep putting so many rules in for this and that. If it was really no holds barred fighting do you think they would have so many rules of what you can and can not do ? Noooooooooo..............

If you limit the fighters to what they can and can not do is that really no holds Barred or just a bunch of hype.

I think if you asked some real street fighters who fight in real underground matches about this they would say bring these "no holds barred" fighting competition champions out for a real no holds fight.

I am not advocating death matches just saying with all this hype of
"no holds barred" fighting competitions with tons of rules of what you can and can not do its a bit hypo-critical.

Chicago Green Dragon

:asian:




UFC , Pride FC, ect.

What is your opinion of these types of "no holds barred" fighting competitions?

[markulous]

I like K-1 fighting. In a few years I might try to do that. UFC though is too much ground fighting. I agree they should be able to do more.

[Chicago Green Dragon]

If you do decide to go for it. The best of luck to you.

I dont want any one to think I am bad mouthing fighters in this area of fighting but i think the marketers are being hypo-critical with it when they label them "no holds barred" fighting competitions

I have a feeling a lot of the fighters would like some more flexibility with that they can do today. If i remember correctly when this started in the past there were less rules and it was closer to the advertisement
"no holds barred" fighting competitions

Chicago Green Dragon

:asian:


I like K-1 fighting. In a few years I might try to do that. UFC though is too much ground fighting. I agree they should be able to do more.

[MJS]

UFC , Pride FC, ect.

What is your opinion of these types of "no holds barred" fighting competitions?

If you date back to the first one, there was actually very few rules. There were rules, dont get me wrong, but you were allowed to do MUCH more than you can do now. As for the contact, if you look closely, you'll see that alot of these guys really get rocked when they get hit. Tank Abbott is a hard puncher and has KO'd many with punches. Keep in mind that just like with boxing, these guys are training for that type of contact, which is ALOT more than you'll ever see in any sparring or sport tournament matches. The difference is, is that they are conditioned to take those hits.

IMO, these fights give you a much closer feeling as to what a real fight is going to be like. Sure, sparring can do the same thing, but look at all the gear that you wear. Look at the areas that you can and cant hit. There are more spots that are NOT allowed then there is allowed. No leg kicks, no hits to the back, and the list goes on. In the NHB, as I said, yes, there are rules, but comparing a sparring match to a NHB match is like comparing a Ford Escort to a Chevy Corvette!!!

Mike

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Well, Jason and Chicago Green Dragon...

Those are some of the most ignorant posts I've ever read on an internet martial arts forum.

First: Now that there are rules to protect the fighters, it's not called "No Holds Barred". It's now called "Mixed Martial Arts" or "MMA" for short.

Second: Of course there are lots of rules. But, there is no one-on-one competition that allows a greater variety of techniques than Pride or UFC.

Third: Have you ever trained with or fought someone who fights in Pride, the UFC, Shooto, King of the Cage, or any of the others? If not, then you don't know what you are talking about. All but the worst of these guys train full contact against boxers, kick boxers, wrestlers, Judokas, Jiu Jitsu fighters, and submission wrestlers. They learn to fight hard standing, clinching, and on the ground. You think these guys can't hit hard? Two words for you guys: Cro Cop! Two more words: Chuck Liddell. I train at a school run by a guy who is undefeated in EFC and Pride. There are other guys there who fight MMA. I have over 30 years of martial arts experience and I have never met better conditioned, more versatile, more deadly fighters in my life.

Fourth: Who are these "real street fighters" and where are these "real underground matches" where Pride and UFC fighters would get whooped. Are these real street fighters better trained than professional MMA fighters? Do they have more endurance? Do they have a larger repertoire of techniques than the pros? Do they hit harder? No. They are not, do not, do not, and do not. The fact is they are the fighters who are not smart enough, disciplined enough, tough enough, or good enough to fight professionally.

Fifth: Where do you think Pro MMA guys come from? Do you think none of them have ever been in a street fight? Do you think that just because they train for professional fights to take place in a ring or cage that they can't pick up a club or a bottle or a knife or a gun?

Now that I am done, you guys should just go back to your mats and practice yoiur deadly kata techniques in the air.

[MJS]

Well, Jason and Chicago Green Dragon...

Those are some of the most ignorant posts I've ever read on an internet martial arts forum.

[quote]First: Now that there are rules to protect the fighters, it's not called "No Holds Barred". It's now called "Mixed Martial Arts" or "MMA" for short.

Thats correct. The name has been changed.


Second: Of course there are lots of rules. But, there is no one-on-one competition that allows a greater variety of techniques than Pride or UFC.

If you stop and think about it, there are rules in EVERY sport. You're correct again, my friend. Pride, UFC, or any of the other ones do offer MUCH more.


Third: Have you ever trained with or fought someone who fights in Pride, the UFC, Shooto, King of the Cage, or any of the others? If not, then you don't know what you are talking about. All but the worst of these guys train full contact against boxers, kick boxers, wrestlers, Judokas, Jiu Jitsu fighters, and submission wrestlers. They learn to fight hard standing, clinching, and on the ground. You think these guys can't hit hard? Two words for you guys: Cro Cop! Two more words: Chuck Liddell. I train at a school run by a guy who is undefeated in EFC and Pride. There are other guys there who fight MMA. I have over 30 years of martial arts experience and I have never met better conditioned, more versatile, more deadly fighters in my life.

They probably have not trained with anyone who does these types of things.


Fourth: Who are these "real street fighters" and where are these "real underground matches" where Pride and UFC fighters would get whooped. Are these real street fighters better trained than professional MMA fighters? Do they have more endurance? Do they have a larger repertoire of techniques than the pros? Do they hit harder? No. They are not, do not, do not, and do not. The fact is they are the fighters who are not smart enough, disciplined enough, tough enough, or good enough to fight professionally.

These so called "real street fighters" are the fat slobs that you see on the bar stool, drinking a beer, and talking more sh** than you can ever imagine. The difference is that the "talkers" do just that---TALK. They dont walk the walk as well.


Fifth: Where do you think Pro MMA guys come from? Do you think none of them have ever been in a street fight? Do you think that just because they train for professional fights to take place in a ring or cage that they can't pick up a club or a bottle or a knife or a gun?

I'm sure that they can fight. Good example--Tank. Sure, hes lost more than hes won, but you know what....I dont think that hed think twice about throwing down on the street.


Now that I am done, you guys should just go back to your mats and practice yoiur deadly kata techniques in the air.

:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:

Mike

[Dan Anderson]

I think the NHB or MMA competitions did one very good thing for the martial arts - they showed the world that man does not survive only on two feet. For a great many karate, taekwondo and kung fu players, this was a much needed pitcher of ice water. Personally, I have since dried myself off and have warmed up.

Best,
Dan Anderson

[kenpo12]

I have to agree with OFK. Most of the comments seem to be very ignorant.
As far as my opinion on MMA, I think it's great. For one, it's a much more pure fighting sport due to less money and corruption. I think they have done a great service to those martial artists who want to see what can happen with limited rules. Granted it's not the same as a street fight but it does get a whole lot closer than point sparring or even kickboxing will.

[markulous]

[QUOTE=Old Fat Kenpoka
Now that I am done, you guys should just go back to your mats and practice yoiur deadly kata techniques in the air.[/QUOTE]

Nice! :boing2:

[MJS]

I think the NHB or MMA competitions did one very good thing for the martial arts - they showed the world that man does not survive only on two feet. For a great many karate, taekwondo and kung fu players, this was a much needed pitcher of ice water. Personally, I have since dried myself off and have warmed up.

Best,
Dan Anderson

Right on Dan!! I agree 100% with that statement. I'll give this example to back up what you say. Look at UFC 1. Majority of fighters were stand up. Gracie and Shamrock were the only ones with any huge amount of grappling exp. And what happened?? EVERY stand up guy went to the ground. Now, look at the UFC, 11 yrs. later...what do you see? EVERY fighter today has an equal balance of stand up AND grappling!

Yeah, I'd DEFINATELY say that it was a wake up call!!!

Mike

[James Kovacich]

Right on Dan!! I agree 100% with that statement. I'll give this example to back up what you say. Look at UFC 1. Majority of fighters were stand up. Gracie and Shamrock were the only ones with any huge amount of grappling exp. And what happened?? EVERY stand up guy went to the ground. Now, look at the UFC, 11 yrs. later...what do you see? EVERY fighter today has an equal balance of stand up AND grappling!

Yeah, I'd DEFINATELY say that it was a wake up call!!!

Mike


And in the next 10 years theres going to be and even greater evolution of the arts, more complete martial artist evolving.

Just look inside the current issue of Grappling Magazine. The NAGA Championships have over 1200 no-gi competitors on Sat. and over 200 gi competitors on Sun. World record numbers (as stated by them).

Competetitors as young as 4 years old and as old as 59. We have a "new breed" coming up! Its going to be very interesting especially on the faces of those that said grappling was just another "phase." :asian:

[MJS]

And in the next 10 years theres going to be and even greater evolution of the arts, more complete martial artist evolving.

Just look inside the current issue of Grappling Magazine. The NAGA Championships have over 1200 no-gi competitors on Sat. and over 200 gi competitors on Sun. World record numbers (as stated by them).

Competetitors as young as 4 years old and as old as 59. We have a "new breed" coming up! Its going to be very interesting especially on the faces of those that said grappling was just another "phase." :asian:

Very well said! Again, I agree 100% with that! :asian:

Mike

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

And in the next 10 years theres going to be and even greater evolution of the arts, more complete martial artist evolving.

Just look inside the current issue of Grappling Magazine. The NAGA Championships have over 1200 no-gi competitors on Sat. and over 200 gi competitors on Sun. World record numbers (as stated by them).

Competetitors as young as 4 years old and as old as 59. We have a "new breed" coming up! Its going to be very interesting especially on the faces of those that said grappling was just another "phase." :asian:

Couple things here...

Grappling is very different from traditional martial arts training: A greater variety of techniques, more physically demanding training, a greater emphasis on competition, and training time focused more on sparring/fighting.

As the number of grapplers grows, the number of grapplers wanting to cross-train in striking arts will also grow. As grapplers tend to be more focused on results (and less focused on the "journey" or "way" or "do") they will eschew Traditional Martial Arts training and choose competition oriented arts such as boxing, kick boxing, Muay Thai, etc.

10 years from now, there will not only be more grapplers than there are today, there will also be more people doing ring-oriented standup arts. TKD, Kenpo, J/O Karate, and Kung Fu will still have their following among budophiles, but those who want to learn to fight will choose fighting arts.

[Chicago Green Dragon]

OFK
First: I was commenting on the term No Holds Barred. I was saying that it was more like that in the begining and with the rules now it is less like that.
I also know the rules are there to protect the fighters too.

Second I never said that the fighters in Pride K-1 or anything else were any less great, that is something you came up with on your own. I have the highest respect for those fighters and dont put words in my mouth. I have never bad mouth them as fighters i was just questioning the term No Holds Barred and also saying that some of the fighters might like a bit more flexibility.
Also there are underground fights that do occur and the guys arent drunks but just hard core fighters who choose to fight in that arena.

I am happy you get to train with the pro's more power too you.

Dont put words in my mouth. I never once ever bad mouth any pro fighters.

Chicago Green Dragon

:asian:


Well, Jason and Chicago Green Dragon...

Those are some of the most ignorant posts I've ever read on an internet martial arts forum.

First: Now that there are rules to protect the fighters, it's not called "No Holds Barred". It's now called "Mixed Martial Arts" or "MMA" for short.

Second: Of course there are lots of rules. But, there is no one-on-one competition that allows a greater variety of techniques than Pride or UFC.

Third: Have you ever trained with or fought someone who fights in Pride, the UFC, Shooto, King of the Cage, or any of the others? If not, then you don't know what you are talking about. All but the worst of these guys train full contact against boxers, kick boxers, wrestlers, Judokas, Jiu Jitsu fighters, and submission wrestlers. They learn to fight hard standing, clinching, and on the ground. You think these guys can't hit hard? Two words for you guys: Cro Cop! Two more words: Chuck Liddell. I train at a school run by a guy who is undefeated in EFC and Pride. There are other guys there who fight MMA. I have over 30 years of martial arts experience and I have never met better conditioned, more versatile, more deadly fighters in my life.

Fourth: Who are these "real street fighters" and where are these "real underground matches" where Pride and UFC fighters would get whooped. Are these real street fighters better trained than professional MMA fighters? Do they have more endurance? Do they have a larger repertoire of techniques than the pros? Do they hit harder? No. They are not, do not, do not, and do not. The fact is they are the fighters who are not smart enough, disciplined enough, tough enough, or good enough to fight professionally.

Fifth: Where do you think Pro MMA guys come from? Do you think none of them have ever been in a street fight? Do you think that just because they train for professional fights to take place in a ring or cage that they can't pick up a club or a bottle or a knife or a gun?

Now that I am done, you guys should just go back to your mats and practice yoiur deadly kata techniques in the air.

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Ok, I guess I misunderstood your comment:

I think if you asked some real street fighters who fight in real underground matches about this they would say bring these "no holds barred" fighting competition champions out for a real no holds fight.

I'd still like to hear about these real street fighters in real undergound matches who are better than the pros. I'd love to have a discussion about their secret underground street fighting techniques and training methods that would beat pro MMA fighters who train 5 or 6 days a week with other pro MMA fighters, boxers, wrestlers, etc. :idunno:

[Black Bear]

Well Gol-LEEE! Them ol' fat kenpoka just up and SED it!!!

Haw haw...

But it would have been even better with a BB-style disclaimer at the end, as in:

"Everything that you have just read is false. Nobody believes it, not even the person who wrote it. Even if it were true, it doesn't apply to you because ________________. So just ignore it and go on practicing your deadly kata techniques in the air."

That should become standard practice for... ... well, you guys know who you are.

[MJS]

OFK
Also there are underground fights that do occur and the guys arent drunks but just hard core fighters who choose to fight in that arena.

I believe that Jason mentioned something about brawlers in one of his posts. A few things to look at here. First, the UFC as well as the other MMA events out there are santioned events. Are you saying that the so called "underground" events are legal? I dont think so. If thats the case, then why are they "underground"? Seems to me that there must be something to hide. Second, if these guys had so much skill, then why not fight in the UFC or the other sanctioned events? You cant possibly tell me that the underground fights offer more money then the legit ones. Third, you need to know what you're doing when you judge and fight in these events. I give alot of credit to 'Big John' McCarthy for the excellent job that he does in the ring.

I'm puzzled by your statement. If someone had the chance to make it to pro basketball, pro football, baseball or any other sport, then why not go for it? Thats like saying that Shaq should just play for fun in his backyard, even though he has the skill to play pro!

Mike

[Chicago Green Dragon]

ok no prablamo

I have had some of my friends who were able to get into some of these matches where people paid large purses for anything goes fighting. One in particular that comes to mind happend in new york a while ago. It was held in a manhatten building and opened to a select group.
Two men came out to fight, 10 seconds later one guy hit the other guy in the throat killing him and the fight was over. The guy that won was someone who trained 7 days a week from what i heard.
My buddy watched this guy during this fight and couldnt believe what happend but this was how many of those fights he had the chance to go to ended up.

All I am saying is there are also underground matches.

I have the highest respect for the pro fighters in their circuits and i also respect the dedication they put into their art or craft.

I do not advocate or like the underground matches because i think that kind of fighting is insane in my opinion but it does happen.

Chicago Green Dragon

:asian:




Ok, I guess I misunderstood your comment:


I'd still like to hear about these real street fighters in real undergound matches who are better than the pros. I'd love to have a discussion about their secret underground street fighting techniques and training methods that would beat pro MMA fighters who train 5 or 6 days a week with other pro MMA fighters, boxers, wrestlers, etc.

[Chicago Green Dragon]

The fights i was refering to are not legal and big time against the law

As for money i dont think any amount is worth it if you can and a big chance of loosing your life.

Chicago Green Dragon

:asian:


I believe that Jason mentioned something about brawlers in one of his posts. A few things to look at here. First, the UFC as well as the other MMA events out there are santioned events. Are you saying that the so called "underground" events are legal? I dont think so. If thats the case, then why are they "underground"? Seems to me that there must be something to hide. Second, if these guys had so much skill, then why not fight in the UFC or the other sanctioned events? You cant possibly tell me that the underground fights offer more money then the legit ones. Third, you need to know what you're doing when you judge and fight in these events. I give alot of credit to 'Big John' McCarthy for the excellent job that he does in the ring.

I'm puzzled by your statement. If someone had the chance to make it to pro basketball, pro football, baseball or any other sport, then why not go for it? Thats like saying that Shaq should just play for fun in his backyard, even though he has the skill to play pro!

Mike

[MJS]

ok no prablamo

I have had some of my friends who were able to get into some of these matches where people paid large purses for anything goes fighting. One in particular that comes to mind happend in new york a while ago. It was held in a manhatten building and opened to a select group.
Two men came out to fight, 10 seconds later one guy hit the other guy in the throat killing him and the fight was over. The guy that won was someone who trained 7 days a week from what i heard.
My buddy watched this guy during this fight and couldnt believe what happend but this was how many of those fights he had the chance to go to ended up.

All I am saying is there are also underground matches.

I have the highest respect for the pro fighters in their circuits and i also respect the dedication they put into their art or craft.

I do not advocate or like the underground matches because i think that kind of fighting is insane in my opinion but it does happen.

Chicago Green Dragon

:asian:

Sooooo...it just goes to prove my point. The underground fights are showcasing guys that have no skill, only certain people can come and if you enter, you just might get killed!!! Come on pal. Walking around saying that you killed someone is something to brag about??? Yeah, ok!!!! Gee, maybe thats why those events are not legal.

Mike

[Black Bear]

I know of an underground prizefight ring in my town. I never went, but I doubt the calibre is anything to write home about, certainly not at the level of even a regional MMA tourney.

I learned a lot from UFC's. Heck, before them, MOST of us believed that ground grappling was a mess to avoid. Come on, let's be honest. Who here would have never learned to grapple if it weren't for UFC's? I'm one.

That said, I'm not a spectator sports fan and I don't really watch them all that much except when prompted to watch a specific fight or event for instructional purposes.

[MJS]

The fights i was refering to are not legal and big time against the law

As for money i dont think any amount is worth it if you can and a big chance of loosing your life.

Chicago Green Dragon

:asian:

Then if thats the case, why would ANYONE with an ounce of brains, and if they had the skill to compete in MMA, want to risk getting killed in an illegal event, when they can make more money, get more recognition, from fighting in a legal event??

Mike

[Chicago Green Dragon]

Mike

I dont think anybody in their right mind ever goes about bragging about killing someone. But I do think people in that arena are known by their reputation and what they have done.
There are some people who choose to fight in those illegal areas.

All I was saying is there are events like that too.

As for skill what eva you say.................

I am not going to comment on anyones skills being bad or anything like that
I'll leave that up to you.

Chicago Green Dragon

:asian:


Sooooo...it just goes to prove my point. The underground fights are showcasing guys that have no skill, only certain people can come and if you enter, you just might get killed!!! Come on pal. Walking around saying that you killed someone is something to brag about??? Yeah, ok!!!! Gee, maybe thats why those events are not legal.

Mike

[MJS]

I know of an underground prizefight ring in my town. I never went, but I doubt the calibre is anything to write home about, certainly not at the level of even a regional MMA tourney.

I dont think it was anything to write home about either!!


I learned a lot from UFC's. Heck, before them, MOST of us believed that ground grappling was a mess to avoid. Come on, let's be honest. Who here would have never learned to grapple if it weren't for UFC's? I'm one.

And I'm another one! The UFC opened my eyes to what else is out there!

Mike

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

I have had some of my friends who were able to get into some of these matches where people paid large purses for anything goes fighting. One in particular that comes to mind happend in new york a while ago. It was held in a manhatten building and opened to a select group.
Two men came out to fight, 10 seconds later one guy hit the other guy in the throat killing him and the fight was over. The guy that won was someone who trained 7 days a week from what i heard.
My buddy watched this guy during this fight and couldnt believe what happend but this was how many of those fights he had the chance to go to ended up.



Bull sheeeeeeeet!

[Jason Davis]

Well, Jason and Chicago Green Dragon...

Those are some of the most ignorant posts I've ever read on an internet martial arts forum.

First: Now that there are rules to protect the fighters, it's not called "No Holds Barred". It's now called "Mixed Martial Arts" or "MMA" for short.

Second: Of course there are lots of rules. But, there is no one-on-one competition that allows a greater variety of techniques than Pride or UFC.

Third: Have you ever trained with or fought someone who fights in Pride, the UFC, Shooto, King of the Cage, or any of the others? If not, then you don't know what you are talking about. All but the worst of these guys train full contact against boxers, kick boxers, wrestlers, Judokas, Jiu Jitsu fighters, and submission wrestlers. They learn to fight hard standing, clinching, and on the ground. You think these guys can't hit hard? Two words for you guys: Cro Cop! Two more words: Chuck Liddell. I train at a school run by a guy who is undefeated in EFC and Pride. There are other guys there who fight MMA. I have over 30 years of martial arts experience and I have never met better conditioned, more versatile, more deadly fighters in my life.

Fourth: Who are these "real street fighters" and where are these "real underground matches" where Pride and UFC fighters would get whooped. Are these real street fighters better trained than professional MMA fighters? Do they have more endurance? Do they have a larger repertoire of techniques than the pros? Do they hit harder? No. They are not, do not, do not, and do not. The fact is they are the fighters who are not smart enough, disciplined enough, tough enough, or good enough to fight professionally.

Fifth: Where do you think Pro MMA guys come from? Do you think none of them have ever been in a street fight? Do you think that just because they train for professional fights to take place in a ring or cage that they can't pick up a club or a bottle or a knife or a gun?

Now that I am done, you guys should just go back to your mats and practice yoiur deadly kata techniques in the air.
Just to clarify, I never said anything about their fighting ability I just said that the advertisement wasn't 100% accurate.

As far as their striking ability, it is lacking as far as the complete realm of martial arts is concerned. They strike hard but not as hard as they could if they trained to strike.

But I never said any of these guys weren’t skilled at what they do so maybe you should re-read what I wrote.

As far as “real street fighters” goes what exactly is a real street fighter? What is a fake street fighter?

As far as going back to my mat and practicing my “deadly kata technique”, you don’t know anything about my training so don’t make assumptions. I train a little Ju-jitsu and besides what art you train has nothing to do with your skill level. Example: I guarantee you that one of those “worlds strongest men” guys would be a very comparable adversary just because of their brut strength and they usually don’t have any martial arts training.

As far as training with people who are suited for these type events, I have. I’ll train with any body I really don’t care. There is nothing special about how they train. I train full contact, with no pads on, with no rules, and in the snow. So what is your point? Oh wait do I get a cookie because I endured some sort of hardship while I was training? Nope and I didn’t ask for one either. So why do they? Anyways no one in those competitions is really any more intimidating that anyone else. I personally have found that the softer spoken martial artist is usually the more intimidating ones.

As far as grappling goes I realize that it’s whole premise is that 90% of all fights end up on the ground; well guess what 100% start off standing up. You know it’s not that hard to sever a brain stem when someone shoots in on you. Example: take your two biggest fingers and slap the back of your neck. Did your eyes jiggle? If they did you hit your brain stem getting jiggled around a little bit.

Man you MMA guys are very testy sometimes. Maybe you should think about what you are saying to people sometimes you know just because “Bobby Joe Maniac” can put you in a submission hold and hit you a full 40 times before you get knocked out don’t think that someone else can’t do 1,000,000 times better, just because someone doesn’t participate in MMA tournaments that they can’t you will be in for a serious rude awakening when you start a fight at a bar with some one at a bar who has perfected the “deadly kata technique.” Just because you don’t know anything about a particular MA don’t think that it is weak. Some people are still trained the traditional way which is way harder that anything those “no holds barred” fighter go through.

Thank you very much for having such an open mind :asian:

Oh yeah by the way shaolin tiger works really good against grapplers or anyone who tries to grab you for that matter.:) just an FYI for anyone who cares

[Makalakumu]

Do you think it is okay to compare the run of the mill martial artist to the profession UFC bunch? I play baseball and hockey, but the big dogs would kick my butt no matter how much I practiced.

[MJS]

Mike

I dont think anybody in their right mind ever goes about bragging about killing someone. But I do think people in that arena are known by their reputation and what they have done.
There are some people who choose to fight in those illegal areas.

All I was saying is there are events like that too.

As for skill what eva you say.................

I am not going to comment on anyones skills being bad or anything like that
I'll leave that up to you.

Chicago Green Dragon

Again, as I've said, walking around, letting people know that you've killed someone is NOT something to be proud of. As for the skill, if you think that is what it means to have skill, well.........but it isnt. I'd like to see one of these so called "tough guys" fight someone like Rickson Gracie. I'll let you decide who has the skill there. We're all entitled to our opinion, and IMO, very few if any at all of the "underground" guys have any skill.

Mike

[Jason Davis]

oh yeah one more thing, how did this get turned into a discussion about who could kick whos A**? just curious.

[MJS]

Just to clarify, I never said anything about their fighting ability I just said that the advertisement wasn't 100% accurate.

[quote]As far as their striking ability, it is lacking as far as the complete realm of martial arts is concerned. They strike hard but not as hard as they could if they trained to strike.

Dude- These guys train boxing like crazy, what are you talking about???


As far as going back to my mat and practicing my “deadly kata technique”, you don’t know anything about my training so don’t make assumptions. I train a little Ju-jitsu and besides what art you train has nothing to do with your skill level. Example: I guarantee you that one of those “worlds strongest men” guys would be a very comparable adversary just because of their brut strength and they usually don’t have any martial arts training.

Training in any art is better than nothing. However, I have to disagree STRONGLY with your comment saying that it makes no difference, because it does. Some arts are going to give you better results than others and that is a fact. As for the strongest man show....size isnt everything. I'd bet that a guy with 1yr of BJJ would have no problem defeating one of those guys. Its the tech. that matters, not so much the size.


As far as training with people who are suited for these type events, I have. I’ll train with any body I really don’t care. There is nothing special about how they train. I train full contact, with no pads on, with no rules, and in the snow. So what is your point? Oh wait do I get a cookie because I endured some sort of hardship while I was training? Nope and I didn’t ask for one either. So why do they? Anyways no one in those competitions is really any more intimidating that anyone else. I personally have found that the softer spoken martial artist is usually the more intimidating ones.

Sure, what kind of cookie os your fav?? Just kidding!LOL! What you seem to be forgetting is that just like the average person works from 9-5, these MMA fighters train for hours on end...that is their job. Do you think that Mike Tyson got where he was by sitting on his ass and not training? He busted his ass training all the time.


As far as grappling goes I realize that it’s whole premise is that 90% of all fights end up on the ground; well guess what 100% start off standing up. You know it’s not that hard to sever a brain stem when someone shoots in on you. Example: take your two biggest fingers and slap the back of your neck. Did your eyes jiggle? If they did you hit your brain stem getting jiggled around a little bit.

Yup, thats true. But to think that you'll never get taken down...well, thats a HUGE mistake IMO. At least having the knowledge to get back up or how to prevent getting taken down would be a plus. The thing that most stand up guys forget, is that fact that they have to get close for the strikes to work. And THAT is what the grappler is waiting for. As soon as they are within arms reach, the stand up guy just jumped into the pool. My advice: He better know how to swim!!!!!!


Man you MMA guys are very testy sometimes. Maybe you should think about what you are saying to people sometimes you know just because “Bobby Joe Maniac” can put you in a submission hold and hit you a full 40 times before you get knocked out don’t think that someone else can’t do 1,000,000 times better, just because someone doesn’t participate in MMA tournaments that they can’t you will be in for a serious rude awakening when you start a fight at a bar with some one at a bar who has perfected the “deadly kata technique.” Just because you don’t know anything about a particular MA don’t think that it is weak. Some people are still trained the traditional way which is way harder that anything those “no holds barred” fighter go through.

Kata isnt gonna teach you how to fight my friend. And fighting in MMA is not a requirement to know how to fight. But, training with some realism, resistance and alivness....well, that is what matters!!


Thank you very much for having such an open mind :asian:

Hey, no problem. Anytime


Oh yeah by the way shaolin tiger works really good against grapplers or anyone who tries to grab you for that matter.:) just an FYI for anyone who cares

And so does Kenpo. But if ya want to learn to grapple, ya gotta train with a grappler.

Mike

[Jason Davis]

Dude- These guys train boxing like crazy, what are you talking about???



Training in any art is better than nothing. However, I have to disagree STRONGLY with your comment saying that it makes no difference, because it does. Some arts are going to give you better results than others and that is a fact. As for the strongest man show....size isnt everything. I'd bet that a guy with 1yr of BJJ would have no problem defeating one of those guys. Its the tech. that matters, not so much the size.



Sure, what kind of cookie os your fav?? Just kidding!LOL! What you seem to be forgetting is that just like the average person works from 9-5, these MMA fighters train for hours on end...that is their job. Do you think that Mike Tyson got where he was by sitting on his ass and not training? He busted his ass training all the time.



Yup, thats true. But to think that you'll never get taken down...well, thats a HUGE mistake IMO. At least having the knowledge to get back up or how to prevent getting taken down would be a plus. The thing that most stand up guys forget, is that fact that they have to get close for the strikes to work. And THAT is what the grappler is waiting for. As soon as they are within arms reach, the stand up guy just jumped into the pool. My advice: He better know how to swim!!!!!!



Kata isnt gonna teach you how to fight my friend. And fighting in MMA is not a requirement to know how to fight. But, training with some realism, resistance and alivness....well, that is what matters!!



Hey, no problem. Anytime



And so does Kenpo. But if ya want to learn to grapple, ya gotta train with a grappler.

Mike

............................................... didn't i say i trained with all of you MMA people?

anyways boxers don't strike hard either.

as far as the duration in time that a particular person trains, quality is better than quantity.

Look i train a little grappling, all i'm saying is if that a person knocks you out before you grab them it doesn't matter.

What do you people consider a hard punch? I mean seriously do you even know what the human body is capable of?

And one more time for the record I train with grapplers

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

oh yeah one more thing, how did this get turned into a discussion about who could kick whos A**? just curious.

I think it was the comments in the first few posts about...

...not very much technique is used in them it's just kind of a sport for brawlers.

Also shouldn't they be able to strike harder than they do with all that training?

And

I think if you asked some real street fighters who fight in real underground matches about this they would say bring these "no holds barred" fighting competition champions out for a real no holds fight.

But, back to the original topic...

The original UFC taught several important lessons:
1) You need to be able to defend yourself on the ground as well as standing
2) Traditional training methods do not make you invulnerable.
3) There are good fighters and styles from places besides the US and Asia.
4) You will never know if it really works if you don't test your style, your training, and yourself against others.

Later UFC's demonstrated that a fighter needed to be well rounded and able to fight standing, in the clinch, and on the ground.

Pride elevated the level of competition and provided an international arena where the best fighters from Japan, the US, Brazil, and elsewhere could compete for real money in front of a huge global audience.

[MJS]

............................................... didn't i say i trained with all of you MMA people?

[quote]anyways boxers don't strike hard either.

This is like the 2nd or 3rd time you said this. Can you explain further. Are you telling me that Lennox Lewis, Holyfiled, and Tyson dont hit hard???


as far as the duration in time that a particular person trains, quality is better than quantity.

True. Just have to make sure that you are getting that quality training. I just dont see how training forms is gonna help.


Look i train a little grappling, all i'm saying is if that a person knocks you out before you grab them it doesn't matter.

True again. Havent seen that happen to Rickson though. Being able to avoid that takedown or shoot from a skilled grappler is harder than it seems though. In addition, the striker needs to make sure his punch lands in the right spot.


What do you people consider a hard punch? I mean seriously do you even know what the human body is capable of?

Again, I go back to Tyson. That to me, is a hard punch.


Mike

[Jason Davis]

ok I'll explain what i mean by a hard strike.

Do you have a little dog ar have you ever been around one (little being less than 10 lbs.) Ok think of sitting on the floor about 10 ft away from the dog. Think about the dog being wet and shaking itself dry. Now if that dog were to shak itself dry you would be able to feel the floor vibrate right? even though the dog only weighed 10 lbs and was 10 ft away. Now if you were to look at the dog you would see that the shake isn't the dogs whole body it starts at the head and like a wave moves to the end of the dogs tail progressively getting stronger and stronger until it reaches the tail where it is the strongest. The human body is capable of the same thing you just have to train yourself to be able to do it it called "reeling silk". It's not majic it's physics and you obviously have never been hit by this type of strike. it's not the same as a normal punch it's more like a wave than anything else. and oh yeah you have to be totally relaxed the whole time you perform the strike. Read up on how the body woks and it's antagonist you'll understand why a closed fist is not by far the most efficient way to strike. I guarantee you that the type of strike i just described isn't like anything that you have ever expierienced or you wouldn't think that boxers could hit hard. also with this type of stike it doesn't matter where it lands it does serious damage regaurdless of where it hits so it doesn't matter.

have you ever seen someone be knocked 8 feet back through the air while holding a target? I have and they were in a bow stance when it happened. So believe it or not I could care less.

Seriously though I never said that any of those ufc fighters or boxers didn't hae awesone skill i just said that it wasn't anything special. And it's not nothing is. Seriously, read my very first post all I said was that they should be able to strike harder for the amount of training they do. It would make their lives alot easier.

As far as practicing forms goes, I practice forms so I don't get fat. Some people run, forms are just my excercise of choice. If you really must know the bulk of all my training is for striking power, iron palm, and sparring. but why does it even matter read my very first post and then explain to me why this thread became such an issue? im curious.

[MJS]

ok I'll explain what i mean by a hard strike.

[quote]Do you have a little dog ar have you ever been around one (little being less than 10 lbs.) Ok think of sitting on the floor about 10 ft away from the dog. Think about the dog being wet and shaking itself dry. Now if that dog were to shak itself dry you would be able to feel the floor vibrate right? even though the dog only weighed 10 lbs and was 10 ft away. Now if you were to look at the dog you would see that the shake isn't the dogs whole body it starts at the head and like a wave moves to the end of the dogs tail progressively getting stronger and stronger until it reaches the tail where it is the strongest. The human body is capable of the same thing you just have to train yourself to be able to do it it called "reeling silk". It's not majic it's physics and you obviously have never been hit by this type of strike. it's not the same as a normal punch it's more like a wave than anything else. and oh yeah you have to be totally relaxed the whole time you perform the strike. Read up on how the body woks and it's antagonist you'll understand why a closed fist is not by far the most efficient way to strike. I guarantee you that the type of strike i just described isn't like anything that you have ever expierienced or you wouldn't think that boxers could hit hard. also with this type of stike it doesn't matter where it lands it does serious damage regaurdless of where it hits so it doesn't matter.

Thanks for the reply. I figured that it had something to do with iron palm. Due to the fact that boxers and MMA/NHB fighters wear gloves, I would think that it might not be that effective. I dont dispute the validity of this tech. All I'm saying is that considering that you're porbably not going to be too relaxed during your fight, is it gonna be that effective? This reminds me of Dillman and his pressure points. I dont dispute that they dont work, I dispute that they dont work against someone that is moving. Look at every time you see him demo one. How is it set up? His 'dummy" is standing IFO him, not moving, not doing anything. Now, try doing something like that when there is movement. I read an article and he was asked if he could do a PP KO on Gracie, and he actually said YES!!! I almost fell over from laughing so hard. Yeah, maybe if Gracie stood still. PP, IMO, are best done against a grab. Getting back to this hand tech though. It is also something that is gonna take a while to develop. I really dont think that its something that can be learned quickly.


have you ever seen someone be knocked 8 feet back through the air while holding a target? I have and they were in a bow stance when it happened. So believe it or not I could care less.

Hey, anything is possible I guess.


Seriously though I never said that any of those ufc fighters or boxers didn't hae awesone skill i just said that it wasn't anything special. And it's not nothing is. Seriously, read my very first post all I said was that they should be able to strike harder for the amount of training they do. It would make their lives alot easier.

I would think that all of the MMA fighters would disagree with you on this.


As far as practicing forms goes, I practice forms so I don't get fat. Some people run, forms are just my excercise of choice. If you really must know the bulk of all my training is for striking power, iron palm, and sparring. but why does it even matter read my very first post and then explain to me why this thread became such an issue? im curious.

I've done Kenpo for 17yrs and have done forms countless times. I agree that they do give a good cardio workout, but I cant be sold that they can help you fight. As for how the post got out of control....I guess it was your opening post...What was our opinion, and from that, it lead to this.

Mike

[Chicago Green Dragon]

Hey OFK

All I am saying is what my friends saw there when they went.

Chicago Green Dragon

:asian:


Bull sheeeeeeeet!

[Jason Davis]

Thanks for the reply. I figured that it had something to do with iron palm. Due to the fact that boxers and MMA/NHB fighters wear gloves, I would think that it might not be that effective. I dont dispute the validity of this tech. All I'm saying is that considering that you're porbably not going to be too relaxed during your fight, is it gonna be that effective? This reminds me of Dillman and his pressure points. I dont dispute that they dont work, I dispute that they dont work against someone that is moving. Look at every time you see him demo one. How is it set up? His 'dummy" is standing IFO him, not moving, not doing anything. Now, try doing something like that when there is movement. I read an article and he was asked if he could do a PP KO on Gracie, and he actually said YES!!! I almost fell over from laughing so hard. Yeah, maybe if Gracie stood still. PP, IMO, are best done against a grab. Getting back to this hand tech though. It is also something that is gonna take a while to develop. I really dont think that its something that can be learned quickly.



Hey, anything is possible I guess.



I would think that all of the MMA fighters would disagree with you on this.



I've done Kenpo for 17yrs and have done forms countless times. I agree that they do give a good cardio workout, but I cant be sold that they can help you fight. As for how the post got out of control....I guess it was your opening post...What was our opinion, and from that, it lead to this.

Mike
my opinion was that the fights weren't no holds barred.......it was more toward the marketing than the actual fighing.

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Jason:

I have to agree with MJS about the Iron Palm stuff. It's like the one-inch punch--works OK on someone standing there waiting to get hit. Doesn't work so well on a moving target. Doesn't work at all against a conditioned, trained, fully-engaged pro-fighter -- and that's why nobody does it in pro fights. If it really worked, people would do it. That is one of the key lessons of MMA.

And, yes. The fights are not Ho Holds Barred anymore. The first UFC's were pretty close to No Holds Barred. And, trying to market this new event in the early 90's, No Holds Barred was probably the most descriptive name anybody could come up with.

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Chicago Green Dragon:

OK, your friends may have gone to a real fight club. They may have seen some guys get knocked out, maybe hurt real bad.

But what happened when that guy died? Did they just stick him in a trash bag and throw him in the dumpster? Did they try and resuscitate him or give some kind of CPR? Did they call 911? Or, did they all just scatter and leave the building?

I assume you are fairly intelligent as you write well and have chosen to pursue martial arts and increase your knowledge via the internet and other means.

Please use your intelligence and question what people tell you about the martial arts. There are a lot of myths and legends. Question them all. Question what your friends tell you. Question what your instructor tells you. Question what you read on the internet. Question what you read from strangers like me on internet forums. Test everything to determine if it is really true. You must do this to rise above the myths and legends that enables nonsense and fraud to hide behind tradition and hierachical obedience. You must do this to get the most out of your martial arts training.

[Jason Davis]

Jason:

I have to agree with MJS about the Iron Palm stuff. It's like the one-inch punch--works OK on someone standing there waiting to get hit. Doesn't work so well on a moving target. Doesn't work at all against a conditioned, trained, fully-engaged pro-fighter -- and that's why nobody does it in pro fights. If it really worked, people would do it. That is one of the key lessons of MMA.

And, yes. The fights are not Ho Holds Barred anymore. The first UFC's were pretty close to No Holds Barred. And, trying to market this new event in the early 90's, No Holds Barred was probably the most descriptive name anybody could come up with.
i'm over it

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

A couple of things. First, Jason said, "it’s not that hard to sever a brain stem when someone shoots in on you.". It actually IS hard to fracture a brain stem when someone is shooting in on you. I do rehab for PM&R and ortho docs who get some of the gnarliest spine injuries you've ever seen, with significant brain and spinal cord damage. The brain stem proper is concealed in a vault of bone, and bone is...believe it or not...flexible in situ (in the body of a living person). Whack it really hard, and it will mostly bend. The skull has layers of diploe, which dent before breaking, in order to protect the central nervous system...the ONLY organ system completely encased in bone. The Gracies have been doing challenge matches since the 1920's againt people insisting they could knock them out on their way in, totalling -- between family members, cousins, friends of family, etc. -- thousands. No fractured brainstems yet.

Second, calling MMA NHB is a holdover from the original intent of the UFC. I was training at the Gracie academy in Torrance, CA, when all the Gracie brothers were still under one roof...Rorion, Rickson, Royler, Royce, (Relson was in Hawaii) and even remember when Rorion brought his cousins up to help with some UFAF seminars, the Machado's. The Gracie bros put out the Gracie challenge...come here, kick my a** with your acu-karate, and walk out of here with a check for $100,000.00. If you watch GJJ In Action 1 & 2, you'll see some videos of the early takers in Torrance...they were always taped, so a guy couldn't walk out and say, "I beat them but they don't wanna fess up". Rorion could simply plug in the tape and say, "this part where you're going to sleep...is that where you beat me?".

Rorion got involved with some of the hollywood crowd, and a producer put it to him basically like this: Why are you doing this for free, when you could be making a mint off pay-per-view? Bill it like WWF, but for real?" Rorion, being financially astute (and a little greedy), went for it. 1st decision: which brother to put in the ring? Rickson had already been a sports hero in Brazil, so opted out to make room for his brothers to up their rep. Royce got on board...haven't been to the academy for years, but they used to keep a video library of all the challenge matches, for view upon request. Some great footage in there of him brawling with a couple of scary hick wrestlers, regional champs each pushing 400 pounds. Could'nt get the choke around one guys neck (too big around), so flagged the wrist instead.

I digress. There were people in line to take the Gracie challenge...always someone bigger and badder waiting for the chance at easy 100K. My buddy, Mick, and I worked at a club in Huntington Beach called Club 5902, where the 2nd in command bouncer was a Hawaiian kid named Kimo who fancied himself unbeatable. Unfortunately, he was constantly shadowed by his self-proclaimed manager and trainer, Cho San. UFC fans should recognize these names. Mick and I would chide Kimo about taking the Gracie challenge...by the time he decided to, Davies had already gotten to Rorion, so Kimo had to wait for a shot through the UFC (see UFC II). I thought it would be fun to go in as American Eclectic, but they only wanted one rep of Brazilian Groundfighting, and I had already been a blue belt for awhile.

Public outcry --> PPV insisting there be more rules...more padding, etc. NHB had to tame down to be allowed to happen in most states. I remember the scrambles that went on finding venues, sometimes not having one until the absolute last minute, because states were legsilating the heck out of UFC as "prizefighting".

Meanwhile, Rickson sees there's purse to be made, and figures the amount the fighters are getting from sponsors in US = shyte. So, opts for the gladiatorial spirit of Japan...Pride. (had the pleasure of visiting with him after both of the 1st 2 Prides, getting color commentary from him about what went on in his head during each fight). Pride victories also led to some fun stuff locally. Japanese so furious that there top JJ and shooto guys were getting whooped by the foriegner, that they sent an enforcer-level shoot fighter to Santa Monica to beat up Rickson in front of a contingency of Japanese press. He let in one cameraman, and the fighter, then closed the door. If you ever get the chance to watch this tape, it's awesome. Rickson's in his pajamas, having been rousted out of bed by Louis. Shoot-boy kicks RG in the thigh a couple of times, and you can tell it's hard, and it stings. RG gets sick of it, shoots, takes the guy down, and they change positions very often, very fast. Rickson gets superior position, punches the guy into a pulp, then chokes him out. Lets the press in just as he's waking up, so Nippon can look into the cameras of the press as his righting reflex is kicking in to consciousness. Next day, japanese sports press has front page pictures of a bloody face looking up from under Rickson. It was true NHB, no gloves, no rules, just 2 guys and their skills until somebody is toast.

Most of the Gracie challenge matches were this way...bare-knuckle, with 1 rule: no eyes. Not because they thought it would stop them, but if, fight after fight, they have desperate putz' trying to scratch their eyes, then the Gracies have to spend the rest of their lives with scars on their cheeks. Watched Rickson take a challenge at a seminar where the guy insisted on eyes. Ricksons response? Sure, as long as I get to claw at yours after you've gone to sleep, and can't squint to defend them. He put the guy in a crucifix, instead.

Yes, Tank hits hard. I knew the kick-boxer who knocked his teeth out at Perq's in Huntington Beach (he trained with one of the guys from Benny Urquidez's championship team that toured the east in the mid seventies, taking all comers in whatever form they chose...bare-knuckle, muay thai, etc.). Tank is also a poor loser...spent the night looking for him with a shotgun. Punched a 12-year old girl in the face at Westminster Boxing gym; and he & some of his skinhead buddies jumped a black guy in an elevator after one of the UFC's where the colored guy did well, because he was talking a lot victory trash between bouts. I also know the Hawaiian bounty hunter who "reprimanded" tank for his behavior in the boxing gym, and taught him what he didn't know about boxing. I'd roll with Tank any day, but having seen him hit the bag and people, I wouldn't stand toe to toe for a boxing match...unless you've been boxing hard, and strength training on steroids, he'd knock yer head off.

Fight clubs still go on. Lots of white belts and blue belts with backgrounds in other arts that want to test themselves in realistic circumstances. Nope, not ususally as good as the pro's, but set to become one of them someday if they don't sustain too many injuries. (the guys from one South Orange County jits gym can't seem to keep their hands to themselves, and are even being investigated for RICO statute violations b/c of intimidation crap).

I stopped following the scene in the mid-to-late 90's, because work and school took priority and I couldn't make time to get on the mat between the two of them. Also, because there were so many different American BJJ guys starting to win these things, who I knew were no good (I'd rolled either with them, or with their instructor. Lots of purple belts left the GJJ academy to buy promotions from a Gracie Cousin in Newport Beach who lacked morals). But you need to trust me on this one: The Brazilian (and early American) GJJ/BJJ guys are as brutal, if not more, out of the ring than in. They honed their skills in literally hundreds of challenge matches before the pads or rules even existed.

Can they hit? Get under Rickson's or Renzo's mount, and you tell me. Rickson, to be nice, will *****-slap people to coach the response he wants in a challenge match. If they can't believe it really happened, and ask for a re-match, he "turns the screws a little tighter", and switch's to punching. Get the videotape from Manga of him training for Pride 2, and see what an athletic phenom he is. He can hit.

And one last note for Jason: I still believe boxers hit hard. Have trained in Chinese MA and learned the complexities of what you refer to as reeling silk. Have sparred with classmates hitting full contact with these blows, and even been injured by them. Have fought challenge matches with kung fools who believed their complex biomechanics and profound sense of timing would be sufficient against some dumb old kenpo-kickboxing-wrassler. Have been the uke for Ed Parker at demos, where I've been palm-heeled in the chest so hard, I spit up blood with little chunks of lung tissue on the ride home (and he was only coming at me with about 1/4 strength). Still here, brain stem in tact; no nasal bones knocked up into my skull by magic palm heel strikes, etc. Have also sparred with guys like Pete Cunnigham and Blinky Rodriguez, and trained in Kyokushinkai (bare-knuckle knock down karate from Mas Oyama) for hundreds of hours. Spar really hard with your silk reelers; then spar really hard with Blinky; then try to take Rickson (or Renzo, or Ralph...he's small, so he'll be easy to beat), and tell me who you think hits harder.

Just a thought.

Dr. Dave:fart:

[James Kovacich]

Theres no need for it anymore but in the mid to later '90's there were underground fights in California and they were raided, thats how it made the news. There was a big for the MMA ring experience to be able to get in "one of the few" MMA events.

When they were were raided the police couldn't prove anything because they were signalled when the cops were coming in and the combatants would just start "wrestling."

Now theres plenty of "legal" venues and the underground does not exist except in someones mind. :wink2:

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Theres no need for it anymore but in the mid to later '90's there were underground fights in California and they were raided, thats how it made the news. There was a big for the MMA ring experience to be able to get in "one of the few" MMA events.

When they were were raided the police couldn't prove anything because they were signalled when the cops were coming in and the combatants would just start "wrestling."

Now theres plenty of "legal" venues and the underground does not exist except in someones mind. :wink2:
Maybe they stopped up north, but they still go on down here. Not just in my mind, either. Drop by; we'll visit one of my hallucinations together. Law officials in Lake Forest, Mission Viejo, Laguna Hills are exploring charges against some of my imaginings...seems the idiots taped it, and the Law found the tape. Instant karma?

[James Kovacich]

Maybe they stopped up north, but they still go on down here. Not just in my mind, either. Drop by; we'll visit one of my hallucinations together. Law officials in Lake Forest, Mission Viejo, Laguna Hills are exploring charges against some of my imaginings...seems the idiots taped it, and the Law found the tape. Instant karma?

So I'm partially wrong. No big thing. WE, up here, haven't heard anything about it for a long time.

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Actually, there was an article in the SF Chronicle a few months ago about a fight club in SF.

I don't question that underground fight-clubs exist. I do question the idea that participants are better fighters than Pro MMA fighters, that somebody died from a throat strike, or that there are no rules in these fights.

[WLMantisKid]

Just to clarify a couple of points from my own experience with training...

the relaxed bit -

Sifu taught us to keep our entire bodies relaxed during the course of anything, this is so that when we strike - the shock travels down our body and into the ground and since the ground isn't going anywhere... neither are we.

As for forms - Forms are very important, actually.

Stance transitions and weight transitions are trained when doing forms, they also take your basic fundamentals and makes them into a fluid combination so that you train your attacks, stances, and weight transitions all in one simple workout.

You may disagree or whatever, but that's what I was taught. And if it matters - I take Wah Lum Mantis under Sifu Sam Smith. And his Sifu is Pui Chan.

[Chicago Green Dragon]

OFK

What i was told was after the guy dropped like that and someone went over to him. They pronounced the winner, covered the guy on the ground with a sheet and my friends left as with the other people.
I dont know what happend to the guy.
This happend in the early 90's

Chicago Green Dragon

:asian:




Chicago Green Dragon:

OK, your friends may have gone to a real fight club. They may have seen some guys get knocked out, maybe hurt real bad.

But what happened when that guy died? Did they just stick him in a trash bag and throw him in the dumpster? Did they try and resuscitate him or give some kind of CPR? Did they call 911? Or, did they all just scatter and leave the building?

I assume you are fairly intelligent as you write well and have chosen to pursue martial arts and increase your knowledge via the internet and other means.

Please use your intelligence and question what people tell you about the martial arts. There are a lot of myths and legends. Question them all. Question what your friends tell you. Question what your instructor tells you. Question what you read on the internet. Question what you read from strangers like me on internet forums. Test everything to determine if it is really true. You must do this to rise above the myths and legends that enables nonsense and fraud to hide behind tradition and hierachical obedience. You must do this to get the most out of your martial arts training.

[James Kovacich]

Actually, there was an article in the SF Chronicle a few months ago about a fight club in SF.

I don't question that underground fight-clubs exist. I do question the idea that participants are better fighters than Pro MMA fighters, that somebody died from a throat strike, or that there are no rules in these fights.

I hear ya! The way I understood it was that everyone was trying to get the "ring exoerience and exposure" to enable them to come up in the MMA world.

As for them being better. Fat chance, or they'd already of made it to the main venues. :asian:

[MJS]

Just to clarify a couple of points from my own experience with training...

the relaxed bit -

[quote]Sifu taught us to keep our entire bodies relaxed during the course of anything, this is so that when we strike - the shock travels down our body and into the ground and since the ground isn't going anywhere... neither are we.

But, is it possible to do this while moving? During the course of a fight, you're not gonna be standing still.


As for forms - Forms are very important, actually.

Stance transitions and weight transitions are trained when doing forms, they also take your basic fundamentals and makes them into a fluid combination so that you train your attacks, stances, and weight transitions all in one simple workout.

I've been doing forms for many years, and yes, they do teach alot. However, constantly relying on preset moves to teach someone how to fight or to do SD, is, IMO, not the best way to acheive that goal.

Mike

[WLMantisKid]

True, but I don't find it hard to keep my body relaxed at all, since it's been taught to me since day 1 (and im only 2 weeks in) I find it's extraordinarily easy to keep my body relaxed and calm.

It's true preset moves won't help - but Sifu also teaches us the applications of each move. He will have us go over forms and at each step show us how and where to use them. Various points on the body to strike etc. The forms are just a general motion to go through showing stances and general block points, the actual strike motions may be different but just knowing the general movement makes improvisation during a real SD situation much much easier.

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

True, but I don't find it hard to keep my body relaxed at all, since it's been taught to me since day 1 (and im only 2 weeks in) I find it's extraordinarily easy to keep my body relaxed and calm.

It's true preset moves won't help - but Sifu also teaches us the applications of each move. He will have us go over forms and at each step show us how and where to use them. Various points on the body to strike etc. The forms are just a general motion to go through showing stances and general block points, the actual strike motions may be different but just knowing the general movement makes improvisation during a real SD situation much much easier.
Welcome to the MA world, kid. I hope destiny is kind and your journey is a good one.

[Jason Davis]

True, but I don't find it hard to keep my body relaxed at all, since it's been taught to me since day 1 (and im only 2 weeks in) I find it's extraordinarily easy to keep my body relaxed and calm.

It's true preset moves won't help - but Sifu also teaches us the applications of each move. He will have us go over forms and at each step show us how and where to use them. Various points on the body to strike etc. The forms are just a general motion to go through showing stances and general block points, the actual strike motions may be different but just knowing the general movement makes improvisation during a real SD situation much much easier.

sounds like you might actually be learning something worth while stick with it and don't get discouraged by what "real fighters" tell you. listen to your sifu.

[MJS]

True, but I don't find it hard to keep my body relaxed at all, since it's been taught to me since day 1 (and im only 2 weeks in) I find it's extraordinarily easy to keep my body relaxed and calm.

It's true preset moves won't help - but Sifu also teaches us the applications of each move. He will have us go over forms and at each step show us how and where to use them. Various points on the body to strike etc. The forms are just a general motion to go through showing stances and general block points, the actual strike motions may be different but just knowing the general movement makes improvisation during a real SD situation much much easier.

Thats cool! You seem to be enjoying your art, and thats all that matters. I still think its gonna be hard to apply that tech on a moving person, but hey, if you can make it work, great.

As for the forms.....As I said, I have trained them and still do. I just dont rely on them for my fighting exp.

Mike

[MJS]

sounds like you might actually be learning something worth while stick with it and don't get discouraged by what "real fighters" tell you. listen to your sifu.

Well, nothing wrong with listening to how others train. Who knows, maybe by doing that, you might find something that you can add to your own training. I've never tried to get anyone to leave their base art, but I'm a huge fan of crosstraining. If you can take something from someone, and add it to your base art, to at the very least, make what you do better---then why not do it??

Mike

[WLMantisKid]

Thank you :) and I know it might be hard at first for me to apply it to actual moving targets, learning just the simple basis and how things work will aid me when I start sparring and seeing how to apply it without thinking. Then it will be time to start competing.

[7starmantis]

But, is it possible to do this while moving? During the course of a fight, you're not gonna be standing still.
I haven't read this entire thread, so I may be jumping in on the tail end of something, but I wanted to reply to this.

It is possible to stay "rooted" while moving. The mere mention of it seems to be an oxy-moron, but in true understanding of being rooted you understand it is not to be stationary at all. Having your balance centered and lower than your opponants even when transitioning from foot to foot or stance to stance can improve your ability to stay rooted. The relaxed bit is more for advanced practitioners to use their sensitivity and "feel".

7sm

[J-kid]

Just to clarify, I never said anything about their fighting ability I just said that the advertisement wasn't 100% accurate.

As far as their striking ability, it is lacking as far as the complete realm of martial arts is concerned. They strike hard but not as hard as they could if they trained to strike.

But I never said any of these guys weren’t skilled at what they do so maybe you should re-read what I wrote.

As far as “real street fighters” goes what exactly is a real street fighter? What is a fake street fighter?

As far as going back to my mat and practicing my “deadly kata technique”, you don’t know anything about my training so don’t make assumptions. I train a little Ju-jitsu and besides what art you train has nothing to do with your skill level. Example: I guarantee you that one of those “worlds strongest men” guys would be a very comparable adversary just because of their brut strength and they usually don’t have any martial arts training.

As far as training with people who are suited for these type events, I have. I’ll train with any body I really don’t care. There is nothing special about how they train. I train full contact, with no pads on, with no rules, and in the snow. So what is your point? Oh wait do I get a cookie because I endured some sort of hardship while I was training? Nope and I didn’t ask for one either. So why do they? Anyways no one in those competitions is really any more intimidating that anyone else. I personally have found that the softer spoken martial artist is usually the more intimidating ones.

As far as grappling goes I realize that it’s whole premise is that 90% of all fights end up on the ground; well guess what 100% start off standing up. You know it’s not that hard to sever a brain stem when someone shoots in on you. Example: take your two biggest fingers and slap the back of your neck. Did your eyes jiggle? If they did you hit your brain stem getting jiggled around a little bit.

Man you MMA guys are very testy sometimes. Maybe you should think about what you are saying to people sometimes you know just because “Bobby Joe Maniac” can put you in a submission hold and hit you a full 40 times before you get knocked out don’t think that someone else can’t do 1,000,000 times better, just because someone doesn’t participate in MMA tournaments that they can’t you will be in for a serious rude awakening when you start a fight at a bar with some one at a bar who has perfected the “deadly kata technique.” Just because you don’t know anything about a particular MA don’t think that it is weak. Some people are still trained the traditional way which is way harder that anything those “no holds barred” fighter go through.

Thank you very much for having such an open mind :asian:

Oh yeah by the way shaolin tiger works really good against grapplers or anyone who tries to grab you for that matter.:) just an FYI for anyone who cares

Ok i hope your kidding on this post, if not your real stupid.

[Matt Bernius]

anyways boxers don't strike hard either.

Uggg... brain about to explode from this statement. Don't know where to begin (even from a traditional martial arts point of view).

Ok. Yeah, I knew iron palm, fa jing was coming in there. But that form of striking, even the one inch punch is funcitonally so different and tactical from continual striking that it's pretty much not worth comparing.

Here's my suggestion, and I mean it, before posting something so mind bogglingly ignorant get in the ring with a boxer. Just for a bit. You're going to find out that they're using much of the same techniques to generate power as in the traditional martial arts.

Seriously, statements like the one above rob any credibility your argument might have. Especially with people who have crossed trained and experienced other art (and not formed biased sterotypes).

- Matt

[Bob Hubbard]

So....

can someone tell me when the Marine Corp switched their training programs to preping for MMA matches rather than combat? Last I heard, their stuff was a lot more 'traditional' in feel than UFC rules style.

MMA stuff like UFC is a sport, and all sports have rules.
A street fight doesn't.

Anyone who doesn't understand that distinctive difference is sadly as deluded as the person who spends years doing kata in the air, without ever truely understanding the meaning behind the movements.

I've sparred strikers, kickers, stick jocks and knife nuts. Did those fights goto the ground? Some. Not all. The grapplers were more intent on doing the take downs. The knifers more intent on slicin n dicin, and the stick jocks more intent on the pinyata party with my head. Its all in how you train.

Now, I've spared with Ace a few times...very tallented dirt roller he is. Yes, the great majority of those matches went south, and I spent a lot of time doing the woodpecker impression (that means I was tappin alot). In all truthfulness, that was often after taking a shot that would have stopped the fight if we weren't pulling the shots and wearing gear. Some people will keep punching. Ace's preference is to go for the take down and submission. He's good at it.

Its all in how you train. If you train for effectiveness and understanding, you can find that in most arts.
If you train for the TV stuff...well, you have a few choices...and at least the UFC doesn't make you wear silly costumes...the WWE on the other hand.... :rofl:

My opinion of the UFC and its ilk?
Its great for the arts by drawing interest, but is so was Power Rangers.
Neither are real combat arts.

:asian:

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

C'mon Bob...comparing MMA to the Power Rangers! Really now...was it Jason's severing the brain-stem assertion that drove you to make that comparison?

[Bob Hubbard]

Naw. I just see them as opposite sides of the same basic concept: Entertainment.
Plus, I didn't say MMA...I said UFC. I see a difference.
I see MMA as more than just cuddlin on the ground...I see it as a hybrid combination of the best of all worlds both traditional and 'new'.

The UFC though......Power Rangers on Steriods without the cute spandex outfits and magic decoder rings? ;)

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Naw. I just see them as opposite sides of the same basic concept: Entertainment.
Plus, I didn't say MMA...I said UFC. I see a difference.
I see MMA as more than just cuddlin on the ground...I see it as a hybrid combination of the best of all worlds both traditional and 'new'.

The UFC though......Power Rangers on Steriods without the cute spandex outfits and magic decoder rings? ;)
Unless I'm mistaken, isn't that a Power Rangers outfit you're wearing in that picture of you hiding? :lol:

[Bob Hubbard]

Naw..paintball gear....its close though :)

:rofl:

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Naw..paintball gear....its close though :)

:rofl:
Paintball in the hills outside San Diego...most painful Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness I've ever felt in my legs. Props for staying in past the fatigue factor. Awesome adreniline rush.

[Black Bear]

UFC fighters are from among the top of the MMA pile. Couture, Ortiz, etc. Great athletes from great gyms, I respect them all. Even the ones who got their butts wiped deserve respect first for qualifying in the non-televised fights, and second for having the wontons to put themselves on the line at all.

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

UFC fighters are from among the top of the MMA pile. Couture, Ortiz, etc. Great athletes from great gyms, I respect them all. Even the ones who got their butts wiped deserve respect first for qualifying in the non-televised fights, and second for having the wontons to put themselves on the line at all.
ayup.

[7starmantis]

My only reserve from calling UFC fighters the top of the pile of MAist (notice I didn't say MMA) is that they train for a specific scenario only. How would say, Ortiz fair with a trained MAist who is looking for the knee break, eye gouge, groin kick, etc? Most MMA train for events like the UFC and it seems that some of them forget to train for scenarios outside those set of rules.

7sm

[Mudo Warrior]

I personally am not a big fan of MMA. When th UFC first came out it was almost like a battle of the arts fought by 2 men of different styles. Now it just professional wrestling with out the story lines. I think when UFC 1 came out I was a brown belt and we were all excited about it, but my instructor just said one thing when he saw that there was a large cash prize for the winner. "Atrue black belt never fights for money." Call me a stupid traditionalist but I agree and I really didn't understand him until a few years ago. My thoughts are that 2 warriors facing each other in combat should only need the satisfaction of knowing that one came out victorious. I also understand that there are non-MMa more, style oriented cash prize tournaments but, I disagree with them as well. My fear with these MMA, however, is that teaching people fighting techniques without the philosophies of most traditional martial arts is a dangerous thing. Now I not just some sissy who doesn't want to hit the mat for fear that I might get some bumps or bruises. I have trained with a MMA organization on several occasions, and they are tough fighters, but so are us old school traditionalists. I guess that I would have to say that I disagree only with the money prizes and my opinion that MMA is adding to the decline of traditional martial arts by teach no philosophy. Martial arts without some type of philisophical value is just a street brawl, and where is the value in that?

Respectfully,
Mudo Warrior

[James Kovacich]

My only reserve from calling UFC fighters the top of the pile of MAist (notice I didn't say MMA) is that they train for a specific scenario only. How would say, Ortiz fair with a trained MAist who is looking for the knee break, eye gouge, groin kick, etc? Most MMA train for events like the UFC and it seems that some of them forget to train for scenarios outside those set of rules.

7sm

Good answer, BUT how do we know thats all that they train?

There are real martial artists out there that compete in MMA. So unless we've experienced there training first hand or seen credible tape of their complete training, then who really knows? :asian:

[MJS]

Good answer, BUT how do we know thats all that they train?

There are real martial artists out there that compete in MMA. So unless we've experienced there training first hand or seen credible tape of their complete training, then who really knows? :asian:

Very good point. My thoughts exactly. For another discussion on the same topic, check out the Chinese MA thread regarding the UFC. Pretty interesting debate going on there.

Mike

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

My only reserve from calling UFC fighters the top of the pile of MAist (notice I didn't say MMA) is that they train for a specific scenario only. How would say, Ortiz fair with a trained MAist who is looking for the knee break, eye gouge, groin kick, etc? Most MMA train for events like the UFC and it seems that some of them forget to train for scenarios outside those set of rules.

7sm

Oh yeah? Watch this clip of Royce Gracie fighting Yoshida at Pride.
http://www.judoinfo.com/video/roycekick.mpeg
Now, what was that you were saying?



I personally am not a big fan of MMA. When th UFC first came out it was almost like a battle of the arts fought by 2 men of different styles. Now it just professional wrestling with out the story lines. I think when UFC 1 came out I was a brown belt and we were all excited about it, but my instructor just said one thing when he saw that there was a large cash prize for the winner. "Atrue black belt never fights for money." Call me a stupid traditionalist but I agree and I really didn't understand him until a few years ago. My thoughts are that 2 warriors facing each other in combat should only need the satisfaction of knowing that one came out victorious. I also understand that there are non-MMa more, style oriented cash prize tournaments but, I disagree with them as well. My fear with these MMA, however, is that teaching people fighting techniques without the philosophies of most traditional martial arts is a dangerous thing. Now I not just some sissy who doesn't want to hit the mat for fear that I might get some bumps or bruises. I have trained with a MMA organization on several occasions, and they are tough fighters, but so are us old school traditionalists. I guess that I would have to say that I disagree only with the money prizes and my opinion that MMA is adding to the decline of traditional martial arts by teach no philosophy. Martial arts without some type of philisophical value is just a street brawl, and where is the value in that?

Using TMA vocabulary: MMA is an "Art" or "Jutsu" and TMA is a a "Way" or "Do". MMA eschews a lot of the Shaolin, Zen, Shinto, Bushido rituals, formalities, and philosophies to focus on the physical result.

Is that a dangerous thing? Well, if you don't pay MMA fighters you remove the distinction between the ring and the street and might create a few more street brawlers. So, you pay TMA'ers with spriritual enlightenment; you pay MMA'ers in cash.

The dilema about teaching/omitting traditional Bushido philosophy is related to the ultimate goal of martial arts training: Are you teaching/training a wannabee Shaolin Monk or are you training a Fighter? There is value in both types of training.

The problem arises when the wannabee Shaolin Monks believe their meditation, kata practice, and slogans make them better fighters than those who just train to fight. Don't get me wrong: I am all for self-improvement. I am just not so naive that I can't tell the difference between a self-improvement course and a fight-training program.

[MJS]

OFK- Where do you go after you click on the link????

Mike

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Sorry the link didn't come through. try pasting this into your browser:

"http://judoinfo.com/video/roycekick.mpeg"

Or, go to www.judoinfo.com
Click "Step Onto the Mat"
Click on "News"
Scroll down to "Yoshida Fights to a Draw in MMA Rematch Against Royce Gracie"
Click on "Gracie kicks Yoshida in the groin."

[Marginal]

My fear with these MMA, however, is that teaching people fighting techniques without the philosophies of most traditional martial arts is a dangerous thing.

They seem to acheive similar ends with or without the pseudo Asian trappings. Most Pride and MMA fighters in general tend to be respectful of each other, and boxers routinely talk about how boxing settled their tempers etc down.

They're not insane battleragers by and large.

[MJS]

Sorry the link didn't come through. try pasting this into your browser:

"http://judoinfo.com/video/roycekick.mpeg"

Or, go to www.judoinfo.com
Click "Step Onto the Mat"
Click on "News"
Scroll down to "Yoshida Fights to a Draw in MMA Rematch Against Royce Gracie"
Click on "Gracie kicks Yoshida in the groin."

Thanks dude!!!! Nice clip. Yeah, that was a solid kick to me. And it got a reaction from Yoshida!

Mike

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Thanks Mike.

Just another example of how everything in BJJ is already in Kenpo :boing2:

[MJS]

Thanks Mike.

Just another example of how everything in BJJ is already in Kenpo :boing2:

:cheers: :cheers: :lool: :lool:

Mike

[Black Bear]

My only reserve from calling UFC fighters the top of the pile of MAist (notice I didn't say MMA) is that they train for a specific scenario only. How would say, Ortiz fair with a trained MAist who is looking for the knee break, eye gouge, groin kick, etc? Most MMA train for events like the UFC and it seems that some of them forget to train for scenarios outside those set of rules.

7sm
I about half agree with what you've said. I would agree that most tend to train for one scenario almost exclusively, because they're competition athletes. A pro fighter from the Straight Blast Gym is not going to be out teaching the ISR Matrix program, nor is a Gracie competition fighter likely to teach the G.R.A.P.L.E. program. "Forget" seems to imply neglect, though, and that's obviously not the case.

Further, I've been on both sides of TMA/MMA as well as the "tactical geek" crowd. Good MMA sport fighters naturally negate eye gouges, soft-tissue gouges, etc. Experienced TMAists that train at our place are invariably shocked that what they assumed to be effective "antigrappling" tactics, well, just AREN'T. They work against a relatively unskilled person trying to grapple you, but not a guy who knows how to grapple. Why? Because the MMAists train the "dirty tricks" too. If you properly crossmount a guy, with your hip deep in his armpit so that his arm is up past his head, he cannot bring his hands to bear against any target. If your side ride is done correctly, there's no "framing"out of it by trying to smear one's ulna against your jawline.

Knee breaks and groin kicks are part of MMA (depending on what you mean by knee breaks).

[Black Bear]

Marginal is correct. In fact, some MMAers have written about possible psychological/spiritual BENEFITS of the sportive approach over the TMA approach. It is funny that people would "assume" that one to be better than the other. Possibly cognitive dissonance at work.

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

It is a gross - and potentially dangerous - misconceptualization to consider MMA'sts as not posessing the knowledge of maiming attacks (eye jabs, kicks to the knee, etc.). These attacks make great sense on paper, and there is even one Wing Chun hundred-yard warrior who has repeatedly published articles in the karate mags about how he would use his trapping hands and eye strikes to defeat a stoopid wrassler. He has yet, however, to take one up on an invitation to go all out...2 fight, anything goes, one walks away and the other goes to the hospital if they're lucky.

The Gracies used - in pre-UFC challenge matches - what would be called in kenpo terms a "lead-leg pull-drag side stamp kick" to the lead knee of their opponent to close the gap, and ruin tissues in the process. Eye gouges can be delivered easily from the mount, at a range from which the other guy can not counter. If you want to get smug about it, you can even pin one of his arms under a knee, and the other one with a hand, leaving one of the wrasslers hand free to happily claw away at the ocular orbits, punch at the throat, or drive heavy inward elbows into the pterion/temple...all while the guy on the bottom can do nothing but get hit, squirm, and pass out. Remember the 2nd UFC where the kickboxer mounts and beats the ninja-boy with elbows? Unstopped or out of a ring, that fight would have ended with some serious skull fractures and brain swelling. Good combat strategy consists of nullifying your opponents ability to utilize their resources, providing you the opportunity to deploy yours at will. Why do you suppose air bases, missile batteries, and infrastrusture are the first targets in a pre-invasion air war?

We have the same nasty tools as the rest of the TMA crowd...we just like delivering them from a more advantageous, one-sided position. And I'll tell you this: All the pontificating about the woulda-coulda-shoulda stuff about how to defeat an experienced grappler who has you mounted flies out the window when you're pinned under the straddle, and getting pummeled. We don't just mount you to lay on you. Submissions wrestling is the nice-guy approach to whippin' a** in BJJ & MMA.

Final thought: MMA does not mean athlete only; it means MIXED martial arts. Mix might loook like JKD modified kickboxing and Thai while upright and in a clinch, shifting to shootfighting and BJJ when the brawl hits the floor. That works just as well on the side of the freeway as it does in a ring.

Food for thought,

Dr. Dave

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Thanks dude!!!! Nice clip. Yeah, that was a solid kick to me. And it got a reaction from Yoshida!

Mike
Teach him to wear a cup?

[Black Bear]

KKK's correct. But I think there is at the same time a conversation going on about MMA, and another about UFC and stuff. Competition guys such as in the UFC are by no means clueless about maiming, gouging, etc. but will ultimately de-emphasize it in their training. They're serious athletes focused on their performance in a particular task, and their training reflects this.

Years ago I was with Blauer Tactical and very self-defense oriented. Lots of streetified groundfighting. In the past year or two I've been swtiched over to an athletic-driven MMA routine. It's not like the moment I put on a rash guard it squeezed all the fouling tactics out of my brain and they dripped out of my ears. But my training time doesn't reflect them. That said, proper grappling technique negates them admirably. And my grappling ability has much improved because that's what I'm working on.

[loki09789]

KKK's correct. But I think there is at the same time a conversation going on about MMA, and another about UFC and stuff. Competition guys such as in the UFC are by no means clueless about maiming, gouging, etc. but will ultimately de-emphasize it in their training. They're serious athletes focused on their performance in a particular task, and their training reflects this.

Years ago I was with Blauer Tactical and very self-defense oriented. Lots of streetified groundfighting. In the past year or two I've been swtiched over to an athletic-driven MMA routine. It's not like the moment I put on a rash guard it squeezed all the fouling tactics out of my brain and they dripped out of my ears. But my training time doesn't reflect them. That said, proper grappling technique negates them admirably. And my grappling ability has much improved because that's what I'm working on.

The athleticism component is the compensator, I think. Not to say that a guy who can snatch and clean 375 lbs can withstand an eye gouge or groin shot better, but the neuralogical speed, the elite competition that they are prepared for and the endurance, power and mental will that is emphasised and made more immediate is a huge factor in balancing out any lack of 'street' dirt in the training.

I remember how the training in the service for that "you never know" war differed considerably to the "Gulf War is here" training back in my rucksack days....

[Matt Bernius]

Further, I've been on both sides of TMA/MMA as well as the "tactical geek" crowd. Good MMA sport fighters naturally negate eye gouges, soft-tissue gouges, etc. Experienced TMAists that train at our place are invariably shocked that what they assumed to be effective "antigrappling" tactics, well, just AREN'T. They work against a relatively unskilled person trying to grapple you, but not a guy who knows how to grapple. Why? Because the MMAists train the "dirty tricks" too. If you properly crossmount a guy, with your hip deep in his armpit so that his arm is up past his head, he cannot bring his hands to bear against any target. If your side ride is done correctly, there's no "framing"out of it by trying to smear one's ulna against your jawline.

Knee breaks and groin kicks are part of MMA (depending on what you mean by knee breaks).I just wanted to second this as someone who as also crosstrained on both sides of this. Prior to working with trained MMA's I was pretty confident of "antigrappling" techniques. And I have discovered that I had a lot of false assumptions thanks to working freestyle with a number of very talented people.

And that's what it comes down to. Before one makes a sweeping generalization about an art or training methodology they should at least observe if not participate in said experience. You don't have to enter the UFC, but at least work with a MMA person.

- Matt

[7starmantis]

I actually do work with several MMA grappler guys. I think I was misunderstood. I don't think the answer to grappling is anti-grappling. Although there are techniques for that and it only comes down to who is better, the grappler or the "anti-grappler" in those situations. Wait that is in any fight situation isn't it?

The answer is realistic training. Plain and simple. I'm too tired to explain it more.

7sm

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

I actually do work with several MMA grappler guys. I think I was misunderstood. I don't think the answer to grappling is anti-grappling. Although there are techniques for that and it only comes down to who is better, the grappler or the "anti-grappler" in those situations. Wait that is in any fight situation isn't it?

The answer is realistic training. Plain and simple. I'm too tired to explain it more.

7sm
Word.

[JDenz]

I think that anyone who doesn't think boxers hit hard, has definitly been hit once to many times in the head. Jokes aside hitting hard is alot diffrent then hitting someone hard that is trying to hit you. Try fighting with a good boxer or wrestler, I think most TMA's would be surprised how well they know angles, how hard it is to hit them, much less hit them square.
For anyone's information the first few UFC's had no rules. You could eye gauge or bite. In fact the Royce got bit in the finals against Gordo. The only thing that happened is you got fined if you got caught. It was truly NHB, now a days though it is very regulated and that is what they needed to do to turn it into the sport it is today.
Today's UFC and Pride is awsome. There are olympic level guys in there that live breathe eat and sleep fighting. Most of these guys don't care where they learn what they know. Todays breed of fighters don't care about where something comes from only if it works or not. I think this is starting to happen in todays TMA to. I am not sure how everyone feels about that but UFC has definitly affected how every one trains or wants to train.
I have debated with alot of people how hard it is to stop a takedown. It isn't as simple is hitting a person on the shoot it has been proven over and over agian that it doesn't work. The way to stop leg attacks is learn to have a good sprawl let the grappler close the distance get a good sprawl get away and land your strikes. Watch guys like Cro crop, and Igor. Every show guys are getting better and better at defending takedowns.

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

I think that anyone who doesn't think boxers hit hard, has definitly been hit once to many times in the head. Jokes aside hitting hard is alot diffrent then hitting someone hard that is trying to hit you. Try fighting with a good boxer or wrestler, I think most TMA's would be surprised how well they know angles, how hard it is to hit them, much less hit them square.
For anyone's information the first few UFC's had no rules. You could eye gauge or bite. In fact the Royce got bit in the finals against Gordo. The only thing that happened is you got fined if you got caught. It was truly NHB, now a days though it is very regulated and that is what they needed to do to turn it into the sport it is today.
Today's UFC and Pride is awsome. There are olympic level guys in there that live breathe eat and sleep fighting. Most of these guys don't care where they learn what they know. Todays breed of fighters don't care about where something comes from only if it works or not. I think this is starting to happen in todays TMA to. I am not sure how everyone feels about that but UFC has definitly affected how every one trains or wants to train.
I have debated with alot of people how hard it is to stop a takedown. It isn't as simple is hitting a person on the shoot it has been proven over and over agian that it doesn't work. The way to stop leg attacks is learn to have a good sprawl let the grappler close the distance get a good sprawl get away and land your strikes. Watch guys like Cro crop, and Igor. Every show guys are getting better and better at defending takedowns.
Ayup. In the early days of grappling, stylistic differences were obvious. A shoot-fighter or sambo guy would come in and do leg and heel locks we had never seen before, and would puzzle over the intricacies; then we would mount them, and watch them struggle for an escape without placing themselves in another mouse trap. Now the techs have all sort of blended, and everyone is using everything. Makes for awesome MA evolution. Something in there about necessity being the mother of invention?

D.