Sine-wave

[Ty K. Doe]

My school uses the ITF forms (chon-ji, etc.) However, we do not use the sine-wave. Just curious to know the general feeling about using the sine-wave as aposed to disregarding it altogether. Perhaps some of you could provide some pros and cons to either using the sine-wave or not using it.

[KumaSan]

Okay, non-TKD guy here. What's the sine-wave?

[RCastillo]

To me, the sine wave really make a difference when you do forms. It's looks smoother, less rigid, with the emphasis of the hips for power.

Before I went with the ITF, we also did forms w/o it, and I found that of you did not do ITF, you were outdated. They improved all of my work within TKD.:)

[kickyou]

The sine wave really helps with power and it does look better.Once you learn how to do it properly it feels very natural and improves your performance in patterns.

[Bagatha]

For the most part sine wave is just a label. It is a name given to something that we all do anyway, just some people didnt notice. When you walk down the street you are using sine wave(up down, up down). The ITF has simply chosen to "accentuate" this movement slightly by doing different things, sometimes you go on your toes(up-down), sometimes you go down before up when staying in the same stance(down-up-down), when walking/stepping you usually bend your knees so it feels like your going down first but really your not your simply staying the same 'height' until the last 1/2 of the movement where you go up and then downward very sharply, literally falling into your technique. Performing sine wave is just a way of controling how much of your body mass you want to put into your block/strike. And it definatley looks cool.

[arnisador]

In karate they always stressed to me the importance of your head always remaining at the same level. What is being described here makes sense though.

[Bagatha]

Sir, could you explain a bit more? I am genuinely interested. Most people put down sine wave without knowing what it is about, but here you have shown that much thought has gone into the movement (or lack of). tks.

[Agrippa]

The best thing to do is to either fnd a good instructor who can explain and demonstrate it to you...

Failing that purchase the Legacy CD from itf-information.com...

I used to be in the ranks of unbelievers until a few years ago but I tell you.. Sinewave works...!!

Also it is not enough to 'just' add sinewave to your movements... You must study the 'secrets of training' and 'theory of power' in the encyclopedia and apply them... These are also online at itf-information.com...

Agrippa

[KumaSan]

Sounds interesting! Thanks for the explanations and thanks also for the links. Looks like I have something else to read up on tonight...

[kickyou]

Kumasan,
If the links do not help let me know and I will see if I have some links to people performing the patterns with signwave in them.

[Ty K. Doe]

I have have seen other people use the sine-wave in their kata's. I guess perhaps I just don't "Get it." I understand the philosophy behind the technique but I can't understand its practicallity.

Perhaps I should explain that by nature I am a traditionalist, which may be the reason for my bias. I have always been taught that when you move, your head should not change elevation, your feet should slide along the ground rather than step, and that your technique should be crisp (movements which are smooth and relaxed upon execution but explosive upon impact).

I have heard that the technique creates power. But I have to ask is it significant? Yet at what cost? Let me explain my questions.

The way that I understand forms, is that as you practice forms, you train your muscles to remember certain techniques. So the more you practice your forms, the less you have to think about how to execute in real situations. I was told by a hard core ITFer, that the Sine-wave is not to be applied in real-life or sparring situations. Then what's the point? If I practice my technique by hopping up and down, then when I go to apply my technique it would be reasonable to assume that I would move up and down. If I were sparring, my opponent would definitely see this because I would ultimately be telegraphing my attack. So I would have ask how effective is this technique? At what cost do I need this extra bit of power.

Also, how much movement is enough? If you must move up and down significantly enough that it is noticeable, I have sacrificed my attack because of my telegraph. I know it's only supposed to apply in forms. But you ultimately do what you practice. On the other hand, if the up and down motion is insignificant to where your movements can't be detected what's the point? Surely you couldn't generate enough power to be significant. And if this technique is only to be applied in forms what's the point, that extra bit of power is good for nothing anyway?

I have witnessed these forms being done and I must say, their appearance is a little less than desirable. In all honesty, it looks sloppy. I've been told that I need to see someone who knows how to perform the technique well to understand how "Awesome" it really looks. Nobody seems to know anybody who can perform the technique well. What's the point if you can't teach anybody to do it the right way? I may be wrong, but I don't see how these kata's can win in any open competitions? I haven't seen them win yet.

I don't know if I've made any sense. I guess I would like to know how many of you like this technique or dislike it.

I'm not trying to bash anyone, I have real questions that need answers. Please don't take any of this out of context, and I would appreciate some good feedback, one way or the other.

:asian:

[Bagatha]

First to address the issue of forms. There are many things in forms you are NOT going to do in real life. Sine wave is the least of your worries. What if (god forbid) out of instinct you used proper reaction force and put your hand on your hip? You cant use really very much of anything you learn in forms in real life. What you can use is the applied theory the forms have shown you such as balance, speed, center of gravity, torque etc. But no actual techniques as shown so there cannot be an argument.

Telegraphing in forms. They are forms. They cant be used anyway, so again dont worry about it. You dont do stances when you spar either, are you saying we shouldnt learn them? You should understand the mechanics of the body anyway just to learn them, if not you might aswell join JKD or a style of ju-jitsu that doesnt have forms.

Again sine wave is a label, you DO do it when you spar, just pay attention. You cant take a step without it.

"whats the point if you cant teach it to anyone the right way"?

Dont shoot the messenger, its the student that cant do it the right way, out of observation I would say most people dont really start getting it kinda down right until they are 3rd degrees. Why? because people over-look it. They will go years working on other stuff, because they think they have it down and then they go to a seminar and find out they suck and have to start working at it all over again. I dont know how many cocky 4th degrees Ive seen go up at a seminar, thinking they are showing off and ending up standing there for half an hour getting their sine-wave fixed. Its harder than it looks because there are different kinds that apply to certain parts of the forms. Its not always the same, takes years of practice. When you get it (at least sorta) you appreciate it alot more.

My instructor won gold in forms at an open competition once. He did choong-moo.

Ive won second b4

[Klondike93]

If I'm reading this right they use to call it "spring step" when doing the forms.

I didn't like then and still don't like it now, too much bobbing up and down.

Don't hate me, just my opinion.

:asian:

[Bagatha]

"I hate you"!!! j/k:mad: :D

there should be no "spring" though, some people do do that and it would be an example of doing it wrong(ITF).

hateyouhateyouhateyou!!! LOL,:cool:

[Ty K. Doe]

There are many things in forms you are NOT going to do in real life.


They cant be used anyway, so again dont worry about it. You dont do stances when you spar either, are you saying we shouldnt learn them?

That is something else I don't understand. You should do in real life what you practice in forms. Otherwise it's not a martial art, its just throwing your arms and legs in the air. A small example would be when your lined up toe-to-toe with your opponent and he leaps in the air to try to nail you with a backfist to the head, you shuffle in with a headblock and a tag him in the ribs with a reverse punch. You did not perform a sine-wive. You slid in and you were in a front stance for your counter and attack. The next time you line up toe-to-toe, your opponent rushes in with a side kick, you shuffle back into a back stance blocking with an arbcheechee, then retaliating with a rear leg roundhouse to the gut as his leg is falling back to the ground. These are minor examples but these are moves that you do perform in kata's. I guess the thing is, when I do compete I do perform my technique just like I do in the forms. Perhaps I'm an exception, but I do have several trophies, so it's not that my technique doesn't work.


Dont shoot the messenger, its the student that cant do it the right way, out of observation I would say most people dont really start getting it kinda down right until they are 3rd degrees. Why? because people over-look it.

I don't understand this either. I would think that it would be foundational to every other technique that is performed. How can it be overlooked. If it's so important how can an instructor let a student andvance without learning the technique. I realize there are a few people who are limited by their physical abillity and they should be an exception. But how can you teach something foundational and overlook it. If it's gonna be taught the instructors should know how to do this before teaching it the wrong way. Once you learn something a certain way it's hard to (possible but hard) to tear apart and rebuild it, especially when it's been practiced a certain way over and over and over again. I would assume in most cases years. Again, this is why we do forms. You pracitce them so much that the movements become an instinct. You don't need to think about doing it, you just do it. If you do it enough, you will spar the way you pracitice your technique in forms.


Its not always the same, takes years of practice. When you get it (at least sorta) you appreciate it alot more.

How can you get it "at least sorta?" If you don't do it right, is it worth doing? Kinda like excerising, if you do the excersize wrong, your doing it for nothing. And how can someone be satisfied with sorta, except, perhaps for those who are physically limited.

I guess, I'm asking for something more concrete. I've been given these same reasons before. But I have not observed these things you describe to me. Maybe I'm too dense, and am looking at the wrong things. Or maybe my ego is telling me there's no other way than my way, but believe me, if there is a greater benefit to this I would want to learn it. But so far I have not been convinced of it.

[Bagatha]

Its nobodys job to convince you, either you want to learn something or you dont. In my opinion, until you have learned it, you cannot argue its value, that applies to anything. You cant argue something you dont undertstand.

P.S. you cant "shuffle" without using sine wave either.

[Ty K. Doe]

Why would I want to learn something if I don't know what benefit it has?

If I'm an instructor (which I'm not) why would I want to teach this to others.

I always do my best to keep an open mind. Honestly, I get tired of people who belittle other styles by making ignorant claims when they've never even seen the style they're putting down. I can't stand it when people say they have perfected their style. Each style is in a constant state of evolution. And I am not belittling the sine-wave technique. I'm trying to understand it's value. Like I said, if there is a greater benefit to it, I most certainly do want to learn it.

I don't really care to hear arguments from people who have never practiced without using the sine-wave. I want to know from people who trained traditionally then began the sine-wave if there are greater benefits.

Perhaps I should ask this question.

Sine-wave, thumbs up or thumbs down? If thumbs up, why? If thumbs down, why?

I would like to hear from more than just a couple of people, please.

:asian:

[Klondike93]

Originally posted by Bagatha

"I hate you"!!! j/k:mad: :D

there should be no "spring" though, some people do do that and it would be an example of doing it wrong(ITF).

hateyouhateyouhateyou!!! LOL,:cool:

That explains why my ears were ringing all day long :rofl:

I still remember the day (now)GM Sereff introduced that "spring step" stuff to us all. But it's not sine-wave huh? I must go and read for awhile.

:asian:

[Bagatha]

I dunno, maybe its like some cutsie nickname he gave apraticular type of sine wave or something. It makes me think of "bobbing" in the middle which would be wrong for sure, but it could be my interpretation that is wrong who knows.

(hateyouhateyouhateyou)LOL!! please dont take me seriously.:p

[Drunken Master]

I am a green tag (7th Kup) ITF Taekwon-Do student and am only just really getting to grips with the sine-wave.

Personally I think the sine-wave is a good thing. I have tried to perform patterns and movements without it and then using the sine-wave. I have also used the sine-wave for breaking.

Using the sine-wave, in my opinion, helps to generate more power in whatever movement you are performing.

Let's hear it for General Choi.

[Klondike93]

I have also used the sine-wave for breaking

I usually use my fist, foot or the ocasional elbow, but haven't tried a wave yet.

:asian:

[Ty K. Doe]

Kickyou,

Just wondering if your going to the Coca Cola Classic MMA tournament in St. Louis on Saturday, April 6th.

[Ty K. Doe]

Dont shoot the messenger, its the student that cant do it the right way, out of observation I would say most people dont really start getting it kinda down right until they are 3rd degrees.

I would have to say it's not the students according to the following pattern requirements straight from the ITF official web site:


6. Each pattern should be perfected before moving to the next.
7. Students should know the purpose of each movement.
8. Students should perform each movement with realism.

How can it be the student if they are advancing without meeting these requirements.

[Ty K. Doe]

I guess sine-wave is not very popular among most practicioners of TKD, according to the number of posts. So I'll take it that it's not much more beneficial to learn.

:asian:

[kickerfour]

Sine wave is a difficult concept to explain but relative easy to demonstrate -- if the person doing the demonstration undestand what they are doing.

Sine wave is only one small part of the theory of power although it is a very important part. To really understand sine wave one should really study and understand the whole theory of power.

[Bagatha]

Originally posted by Ty K. Doe

I guess sine-wave is not very popular among most practicioners of TKD, according to the number of posts. So I'll take it that it's not much more beneficial to learn.

:asian:

Judging from the number of posts, there are only 2 people here who dont seem to see any value, yourself included. Learn to count and then learn to play.

[Ty K. Doe]

Learn to count and then learn to play.

I'm not sure what kind of game you want me to play, but maybe you could explain that a little more.

Perhaps I made an incorrect statement, so I'll try to clarify.

At the time there were 25 posts vs. 297 views. That means that roughly 8% of people viewing this thread who I am assuming are TKD practicioners have anything at all to say about the sine-wave. Out of the 25 posts only 12 really knew anything about the sine-wave and only 13 really didn't know anything about it (me included). However the 8% is overstated because out of 25 posts only 10 different people posted. So my conclusion was that perhaps there are a greater number of TKD instructors out there that didn't feel the need to teach the sine-wave to their students.

If I'm incorrect maybe we could get more TKD practicioners to post.

Bagatha, I would like to extend my sincerest apologies if I have offended you in any way. It seems evident from other threads that somehow I have gotten under your skin.

I would like to assure all ITF practicioners who use the sine-wave that I am not bashing them. Since there is no one within an hours drive from me that can properly teach me this technique, I am attempting to see if it is worth my while to drive an hour every week to learn this.

:asian:

[ThuNder_FoOt]

I've done ITf TKD, and I'm not sure what this sine-wave thing is. Are you guys talking about the pre- sway motion that some people exaggerate on? I may have been exposed to this, but I must understand what it is first. Can someone explain a little? I read Bagatha's explanation... but I'm still unsure as to what it might be.:asian: :asian:

[Damian Mavis]

Oh dear god no. It is not worth an hours drive just to learn sinewave. I run an ITF school so ...I'm not saying sinewave isn't good, I'm just saying it's not worth an hours drive every lesson. Find a good local school to go to.

[Drunken Master]

Originally posted by Damian Mavis

Oh dear god no. It is not worth an hours drive just to learn sinewave. I run an ITF school so ...I'm not saying sinewave isn't good, I'm just saying it's not worth an hours drive every lesson. Find a good local school to go to.

I would say that perhaps a couple of hours instruction and you would be able to pickup what Sine-Wave is all about.

I think it would be worth making the drive at least twice to experience and learn what it is about. Once you have learnt the principal you can practise and perfect it yourself.

[Damian Mavis]

I think what he meant was (and I might be wrong) that in order to learn sine wave he would have to join a school that is an hours drive away, so taking one or 2 classes to pick it up were outta the question I THINK. My advice was stay in your neighbourhood, life is way to short to drive 2 hours a day for one of the least important things I have to teach my students. Don't be upset with me if you feel it warrants more importance... I just feel that working on the pads, sparring and working on your timing and reflexes are more important. He should be able to get that anywere without the 2 hours a day drive.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[Ty K. Doe]

Thank you Damian. Your advice is well taken.



ThuNder_FoOt

To view the sine-wave in action check out the following web site.

http://www.taekwondo.to/Patterns.htm

[Klondike93]

To view the sine-wave in action check out the following web site.

If that's sine-wave, then I was correct in what I first posted. It was introduced to us in the USTF back in 1986 and it was called at that time spring step.

Nice web site too, thanks for the heads up on that. :)


:asian:

[WaterCircleHarmony]

i've trained in hapkido, a small amount of WTF and i am now training ITF style which does practise sine.
i recommend seeing the forms displayed at www.taekwondo.to

they are very crisp and i am more convinced now of sine motion. i never rated this much due to my training background but it has much more relevance now in my training.

i'm still quite stubborn so GRRR! DARN sine motion!
lol ;)

[Ty K. Doe]

i've trained in hapkido, a small amount of WTF and i am now training ITF style which does practise sine. i recommend seeing the forms displayed at www.taekwondo.to

I've actually had that site bookmarked for a while. I do think they perform it better than most other sites I've seen.

[kickerfour]

Another good site is http://users.ev1.net/~D.McHenry/forms/

[Klondike93]

Still don't care for it. In my opinion it makes the form err sorry, pattern too bouncy. Your height zone changes which goes against principles of keeping your head and body one height.

Yes I practiced this and when I quit the USTF I was glad to drop it.

Just my opinion though.

:asian:

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by Klondike93

Still don't care for it. In my opinion it makes the form err sorry, pattern too bouncy. Your height zone changes which goes against principles of keeping your head and body one height.

Yes I practiced this and when I quit the USTF I was glad to drop it.

Just my opinion though.

:asian:

I'm hurt! Once ITF, always ITF, you can never quit us!:mad:

(Not really)

[Klondike93]

I didn't say I quit the ITF just the USTF, just didn't care being told who I could study with. Now I'm doing Kenpo and Systema and loving it.

:asian:

[kickerfour]

Originally posted by Klondike93

Still don't care for it. In my opinion it makes the form err sorry, pattern too bouncy. Your height zone changes which goes against principles of keeping your head and body one height.

:asian:

Of course, General Choi developed principles other than keeping your head and body one height. This is a karate priciple which fits with what you are doing now. I very much like sine wave as I find it generates more power when used correctly and in conjunction with the threory of power.

[Ty K. Doe]

Could you explain the theory power? I'm not sure if I understand what you mean by theory of power. Is it a significant amount of power that generated?

I've heard people talk about chi/ki, breathing techniques, sine-wave, and I'm sure there are other techniques. People talk about having the force to nock over a bull, and such and such. Is there really a secret formula for all this extra power? I'm sorry but I don't think I'm convinced. I don't think there is this mystical force that gives a person extra power. I'm sure it has alot to do with a lot of hard work and practice. People have been breaking boards for years without special techniques.

[kickerfour]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ty K. Doe

[B]Could you explain the theory power? I'm not sure if I understand what you mean by theory of power. Is it a significant amount of power that generated?



There is nothing really mystical about General Choi's theory of power. The six parts are:

Reaction force -- the retraction after a technique is done is as important as the "sending out" of the technique.

Concentration -- the force of the technique must be concentrated into the tool with which the technique is done. i.e. the first two nuckles of the hand when a punch is done.

Breath control -- proper breathing when executing a technique. i.e. breathing out at the moment of impact during a punch.

Equilipbrium -- balance

Speed and mass -- these two are connected. We can't really change our mass but we can increase our speed causing a technique to have more power.

since wave is only one small part of the theory of power. This is just a short explanation. The encylopedia goes into much more detail.

[WaterCircleHarmony]

Is it dangerous to be bouncing up or down whilst doing sine?

Does the head have to stay at the same level i mean?

Curious.

[kickerfour]

Originally posted by WaterCircleHarmony

Is it dangerous to be bouncing up or down whilst doing sine?

Does the head have to stay at the same level i mean?

Curious.

The head should move up and down less then 1". Sine wave is not a huge up and down motion.

The best way to understand it is to find an instructor that understands sine wave and have them demonstrate.

[gargo]

It seems to me that the introduction of signs has the academic benefit of helping students pay attention to their stances more carefully. However, it does sound like it's counter-production in a practical standpoint for all the reasons stated earlier in this thread.

[list=1]
Straight line is the shortest path between two points -- any deviation from a straight line (e.g. bouncing) will slow the technique and reduce power
Telegraphing - extra vertical motion will alert your opponent of your upcoming move
Balance - we're taught to slide in and out and maintain balance on our rear leg to avoid sweeps and be ready for quick deployment of kicks and defensive meneuvers. With this "sine wave" it seems balance will shift frequently off the back leg
[/list=1]

It's always good to learn different techniques (e.g. "sine wave")... even if only to recognize even more what not to do.

Cheers.;)

[kickerfour]

Originally posted by gargo

It seems to me that the introduction of signs has the academic benefit of helping students pay attention to their stances more carefully. However, it does sound like it's counter-production in a practical standpoint for all the reasons stated earlier in this thread.

[list=1]
Straight line is the shortest path between two points -- any deviation from a straight line (e.g. bouncing) will slow the technique and reduce power
Telegraphing - extra vertical motion will alert your opponent of your upcoming move
Balance - we're taught to slide in and out and maintain balance on our rear leg to avoid sweeps and be ready for quick deployment of kicks and defensive meneuvers. With this "sine wave" it seems balance will shift frequently off the back leg
[/list=1]

It's always good to learn different techniques (e.g. "sine wave")... even if only to recognize even more what not to do.

Cheers.;)

I don't want to appear argumentative. However, I think there are a couple of things missing here.

1. A straight line is the shortest distance between two points. Sine wave does not change this.
2. The updown motion is done with all techniques. There is no more telegraphing with sine wave than with the other body motion.
3. Balance does not change with sine wave. You are not shifting from leg to leg.

Sine wave has been demonstrated to produce more power which means that the technique is done faster. In the hands of a well trained martial artist, sine wave adds greatly to their ability to attack and defend.

Sine wave is a difficult concept to verbalize.

[Klondike93]

Originally posted by kickerfour



I don't want to appear argumentative. However, I think there are a couple of things missing here.

1. A straight line is the shortest distance between two points. Sine wave does not change this.
2. The updown motion is done with all techniques. There is no more telegraphing with sine wave than with the other body motion.
3. Balance does not change with sine wave. You are not shifting from leg to leg.

Sine wave has been demonstrated to produce more power which means that the technique is done faster. In the hands of a well trained martial artist, sine wave adds greatly to their ability to attack and defend.

Sine wave is a difficult concept to verbalize.

But, your bobbing up and down like a cork in the ocean. I was there when the General first introduced it to the USTF. I didn't care for the up and down motion, to me it makes a form look jerky.




:asian:

[kickerfour]

Originally posted by Klondike93



But, your bobbing up and down like a cork in the ocean. I was there when the General first introduced it to the USTF. I didn't care for the up and down motion, to me it makes a form look jerky.




:asian:

I suspect that you were there for the old "spring style" form of sine wave. This had a bunch of knee action and larger up down motion than we do now.

[Klondike93]

I suspect that you were there for the old "spring style" form of sine wave

Probably, it was 1986 I think when they first started teaching it to us. But after seeing a video of it, it doesn't look like it's changed any.


:asian:

[kickerfour]

Originally posted by Klondike93



Probably, it was 1986 I think when they first started teaching it to us. But after seeing a video of it, it doesn't look like it's changed any.


:asian:

Depends on the video.

[Klondike93]

Look for the video section (http://www.taekwondo.to/)

This is the web site I was directed to for a look at sine-wave.

I looked at chon-ji up to kwan-gae and the guy looks like he's bouncing to me. :shrug:

Explain the need of this to me so I can better understand what it is sine-wave is meant to do. Thanks.

:asian:

[kickerfour]

Originally posted by Klondike93

Look for the video section (http://www.taekwondo.to/)

This is the web site I was directed to for a look at sine-wave.

I looked at chon-ji up to kwan-gae and the guy looks like he's bouncing to me. :shrug:

Explain the need of this to me so I can better understand what it is sine-wave is meant to do. Thanks.

:asian:

Try this web site. http://users.ev1.net/~D.McHenry/forms/

However, patterns shown via internet never look as clean as those shown via video tape or live. Your best bet is to find someone near you who can give you a good demonstration or buy the video set from comdo.com.

Sine wave is one small part of the Theory of Power which takes 16 pages in Gen. Choi's encyclopedia.

Sorry I can't be clearer.

[Klondike93]

I have been really tempted to get the Encylopedia set he put out, but having moved into kenpo I spend far too much money on it.

I do have his book Tae Kwon Do though, and still thumb through it from time to time.

Thanks


:asian:

[sweeper]

uhm.. I know nothing about TKD but I was wondering through the forum and saw a thred titled "sign wave" and my curiosity kicked in.

Since I don't know anything about it I have the question, How does it generate power? I looked at the videos and it looks like on most techniques you are comming down on impact. Is this correct? If so are you creating additional force by shifting your CG down?

[Marginal]

I'm a mere 8th gup, but I don't have a problem with doing sine wave. (Only really figured out how to get it into punching etc two weeks ago or so.) Makes a very impressive sound at the very least. Main reason it helps generate power in my mind is that it is a fairly natural feeling movement, which makes you relax reflexively. A relaxed arm (prior to the impact) generates more speed and thus, more power. Also the sliding downwards tends to help you get more hip torque into play, resulting in improved reaction force.

I don't see it used in sparring really, but then, I don't see defined blocking, chambered punches, long stances etc in sparring either. Best toss 'em. ;)