This will be a series of questions to verify so of the intel that I have heard. I will start with one for now.

Why is the art called Balintawak?

Because the shop that housed the training area was on Balintawak Street, Hence the Balinkawak Eskrima Club. Eventually it bacame the name of the style of fighting taught by GM Bacon.

Tim Kashino

Can someone (won't mention any names here) provide more information on what is involved in Balintawak? :asian:

Balintawak teaches stick fighters to fight to fight other stick fighters. there is alot of foot work, timing, weight transfer,positioning of your body,balance.
I not sure that I understand your question?

Can someone (won't mention any names here) provide more information on what is involved in Balintawak? :asian:

Originally Balintawak was taught as a single stick only art. Some lineages have begun to include other types of attacks and double stick or stick and dagger techniques to their training. Most often this is to facilitate learning to defend against the those type of attacks. Some lineages also teach empty hands. There is an empty hand style distinctly derived from GM Anciong Bacon's Balintawak I believe called Tat Kan Tao, but I may be mistaken.

There is an empty hand style distinctly derived from GM Anciong Bacon's Balintawak I believe called Tat Kan Tao, but I may be mistaken.

That was a Kung Fu style taught by Jogo sp. One on Bacon's students. It may have been influenced by Balintawak, but wasn't derived from it.
:asian:

http://balintawak-arnis.com/ (Bobby Taboada's Balintawak Arnis Cuentada)


http://johnvillasin.8k.com/index.html (http://johnvillasin.8k.com/index.html) (Jose Villasin's Balintawak International)



http://maranga.8m.com/ (Timoteo Maranga's Combat Eskrima Maranga)


http://balintawak.4t.com/index.html (http://balintawak.4t.com/index.html) (Sergio Arcel's Balintawak Eskrima Club)



http://www.balintawak.com/ (Crispulo Atillo's Balintawak)


http://www.necopa.de/ (Arnulfo Mongcal's NECOPA)


http://www.balintawakeskrima.faithweb.com/new_page_1.htm (http://www.balintawakeskrima.faithweb.com/new_page_1.htm) (Sam Buot, Balintawak International)



http://www.islandnet.com/%7Egmzimmer/balintaw.htm (http://www.islandnet.com/%7Egmzimmer/balintaw.htm) (Dom Lopez's Villasin Balintawak Eskrima)



http://balintawak.s5.com/home.html (http://balintawak.s5.com/home.html) (Bobby Tabimina's Balintawak Arnis)



http://www.visayanmartialarts.com/ (Henry Jayme's Visayan Martial Arts)

I was in the same boat you're in now, Red Blade. I began training in Balintawak a few weeks ago. Here's the information I've learned thus far:


Balintawak was formed in the early 1950s in Cebu City.

The name of the club was taken from Balintawak Street in downtown Cebu City.

The two original Masters were Anciong Bacon and Jesus Cui, both former Doce Pares originals.

The original 1950s students included Timoteo Maranga, Vincente Atillo, Eduardo Baculi, Arnulfo Mongcal, Delfin Lopez, Andres Olaibar?, and others.

Later students include, Ising Atillo, Jose Villasin, Ted Buot, Teofilo Velez, Tinong Ybanez?, Sergio Arcel?, Jogo Milan?, and others. (the ones with question marks still need to be verified whether they were original or later students of Anciong Bacon)

Late 1960s or early 1970s, Anciong Bacon was sent to prison for murder.

During Anciong Bacon's absence, Jose Villasin and Teofilo Velez formed a splinter group and named it "Balintawak International" in the 1970s. Dom Lopez and Sam Buot come from this group.

In the early 1980s, Teofilo Velez formed his own group and called it "Teovel Balintawak". Key persons in this group are Teofilo Velez's three sons, Chito, Eddie, and Monie Velez, Bobby Taboada, Romeo de la Rosa, Nene Gaabucayan, Nick Elizar, and other lesser known ones.

Timoteo Maranga formed his own group and called it "Tres Personas". His son Rodrigo Maranga renamed it "Combat Eskrima Maranga".

Those who did not form their own clubs, fall under the "Balintawak Original" group. Ted Buot and Arturo Sanchez belong to this group.

Ising Atillo also formed his own group and called it "Atillo Balintawak".

Bobby Tabimina played a crucial role in the early parole of Anciong Bacon. He trained with Jose Villasin, Teofilo Velez, and Timoteo Maranga. He received further training from Bacon. His group is called "Tabimina Balintawak".

that's the summary.

That was a Kung Fu style taught by Jogo sp. One on Bacon's students. It may have been influenced by Balintawak, but wasn't derived from it.
:asian:

I found my info on this site:Visayan Martial Arts (http://visayanmartialarts.com/). Perhaps it was simply "heavily influenced".

Question 2.

Who was the Founder of Balintawak?

Question 2.

Who was the Founder of Balintawak?


Venancio "Anciong" Bacon.

Venancio "Anciong" Bacon.

I agree. :asian:

the two original Masters in Balintawak were Anciong Bacon and Jesus Cui, both left Doce Pares.

this was Anciong Bacon's art, the single stick, vertical defense. Because he was tiny, and had less muscle mass, he ended up concentrating in "reading" his opponents movements, mastered non-telegraphic blows, and because of his height, perfected the inside range in fighting.

so, yes, Balintawak is Anciong Bacon's art. his main teacher was Lorenzo Saavedra, the uncle of Doring Saavedra, Doce Pares' "go to" fighter prior to WWII.



here's a 1950s photo. the three attorneys in the middle sitting are flanked by Anciong Bacon and Jesus Cui. to Anciong Bacon's right is Delfin Lopez. standing in the opposite end are Vincente Atillo and Timoteo Maranga. in the middle of this same row is Arnulfo Mongcal. standing behind Atillo and Maranga is Eduardo Baculi.

(all the info came out of this forum)

http://cebueskrima.s5.com/images/groupweb.jpg
http://cebueskrima.s5.com/images/groupweb.jpg (http://cebueskrima.s5.com/images/groupweb.jpg)

the two original Masters in Balintawak were Anciong Bacon and Jesus Cui, both left Doce Pares.

this was Anciong Bacon's art, the single stick, vertical defense. Because he was tiny, and had less muscle mass, he ended up concentrating in "reading" his opponents movements, mastered non-telegraphic blows, and because of his height, perfected the inside range in fighting.

so, yes, Balintawak is Anciong Bacon's art. his main teacher was Lorenzo Saavedra, the uncle of Doring Saavedra, Doce Pares' "go to" fighter prior to WWII.



here's a 1950s photo. the three attorneys in the middle sitting are flanked by Anciong Bacon and Jesus Cui. to Anciong Bacon's right is Delfin Lopez. standing in the opposite end are Vincente Atillo and Timoteo Maranga. in the middle of this same row is Arnulfo Mongcal. standing behind Atillo and Maranga is Eduardo Baculi.

(all the info came out of this forum)

http://cebueskrima.s5.com/images/groupweb.jpg


http://cebueskrima.s5.com/images/groupweb.jpg (http://cebueskrima.s5.com/images/groupweb.jpg)


Joe,

No Disresepct meant. Just a little curious. This is twice you have stated the Jesus Cui was one of two founding Master members of Balintawak. I am in no way throwing mudd on to Jesus Cui's character or skills. I do not doubt his skills or that he was their at the beginning.

I thought Balintawak's origin per se with Anciong Bacon, was due to the fact that he would poke/stab people with his wodden training knife while training with the Saavedra's and the Doces Pares. His training Knife was taken away and he then applied his techniques with the single stick mentality, versus the Stick and Dagger mentality. This opened up the empty hand to Manage, Moniter and Delay the opponents cane.

1) Did the same thing happen to Jesus Cui? Was his dagger taken from him by the Saavedra's?

2) Did Jesus Cui leave the Doces Pares as a good friend of Anciong Bacon's and in support of Anciong Bacons desire to teach his art?

3)

a) Was Jesus Cui the training partner and learning partner for/with Anciong Bacon?

b) i.e. While in the Doces Pares he, Jesus Cui, trained separately with Anciong Bacon just with the single stick, to refine and improve their technique?

4) Given either 3 a or b above, then does it not mean that the first student of Anciong Bacon to master Balintawak was Jesus Cui? And he, Jesus Cui, happened to be like I said a skilled Doces Pares practitioner that changed his study to that of what Anciong Bacon was teaching or working on?

Like I said, I do not discount the man's skill. I was just curious as to why you list him as the two original master's of Balintawak.

Thank You
:asian:

hey, rich... no disrespect taken.

i'm using the title "master" similar to a 'master' painter, 'master' woodcarver, 'master' electrician, 'master' sculpture, etc. etc.

i'm sure that anciong bacon was the better fighter and teacher of the two, this is why balintawak is synonymous to bacon's name. but this is a huge presumption on my part, to further presume on this subject would be really unfair to both men since they have already passed.

both though, were recognized masters from doce pares, both left to form balintawak. so, both were already masters when they left doce pares to form balintawak... hence the 'two original MASTERS of Balintawak' phrase.

this was Anciong Bacon's art, the single stick, vertical defense. Because he was tiny, and had less muscle mass, he ended up concentrating in "reading" his opponents movements, mastered non-telegraphic blows, and because of his height, perfected the inside range in fighting.

(p.s.-- i was told that much of the judo like techniques, and knife defenses of balintawak came from jesus cui)

hey, rich... no disrespect taken.

i'm using the title "master" similar to a 'master' painter, 'master' woodcarver, 'master' electrician, 'master' sculpture, etc. etc.

i'm sure that anciong bacon was the better fighter and teacher of the two, this is why balintawak is synonymous to bacon's name. but this is a huge presumption on my part, to further presume on this subject would be really unfair to both men since they have already passed.

both though, were recognized masters from doce pares, both left to form balintawak. so, both were already masters when they left doce pares to form balintawak... hence the 'two original MASTERS of Balintawak' phrase.

this was Anciong Bacon's art, the single stick, vertical defense. Because he was tiny, and had less muscle mass, he ended up concentrating in "reading" his opponents movements, mastered non-telegraphic blows, and because of his height, perfected the inside range in fighting.

(p.s.-- i was told that much of the judo like techniques, and knife defenses of balintawak came from jesus cui)
Joe,

I take no exception to the term master. I was only looking for clarification on your resources or thought processes. And you provided that.

Thank You.

That was a Kung Fu style taught by Jogo sp. One on Bacon's students. It may have been influenced by Balintawak, but wasn't derived from it.
:asian:

Jose Milan Go (Joe Go) originally studied white crane kung fu. He later created his own style of Tat Kune Tao. Tat Kune Tao may have been influenced by Balintawak and other stick fighting arts.

(p.s.-- i was told that much of the judo like techniques, and knife defenses of balintawak came from jesus cui)

My research into the San Miguel Eskrima system of Momoy Canete yeilded the following information about Jesus Cui, which I have placed on my website (http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze4fs8i/):

"He (Momoy) later studied Combat Judo with Jeseus Cui and blended its principles with his eskrima. Jesus Cui was also versed in espada y daga (Punta y Daga) and Tapi-Tapi. He is credited with orienting Momoy towards a traditional mid- to long-range style of eskrima, in contrast to the shorter-range styles that were becoming more popular. His eskrima was sometimes referred to as the "Batangueno" style."

Any additions or corrections are appreciated.

At http://www.krishnagodhania.com/profiles/inting.html, Krishna Godhania writes:

"During the early 1950s, the Doce Pares club was experiencing a difficult period. Personal differences forced one of its original members, Venancio "Ansiong" Bacon, to separate and form his own system – balintawak arnis. With this departure many leading eskrimadors also decided to leave doce pares and follow the venerated Bacon. Among these was the expert knifefighter Jesus Cui."

Best,

Steve Lamade

Question 3

Did GM Bacon name a successor?

I asked the same question awhile back. My background in the martial arts before Balintawak was in Chinese, Korean, and Japanese martial arts.

When I asked this same question to my teacher, he gave me a long speech about Filipino culture and about how lineage doesn't really play a major role in Filipino martial arts. That is until recently, when many schools became commercialized, following the East Asian "lineage" paradigm.

The answer, in short, is that Anciong Bacon never officially named a "successor". Because naming "successors" in Filipino martial arts would have been unheard of in the 1960s and 1970s.

When his students became advance, they themselves began teaching (which is how you evolve as a martial artist in Balintawak, i was told). Hence, the Villasin, Velez, Tabimina, Atillo, Maranga, Mongcal, etc etc brands of Balintawak, with Ted Buot and Arturo Sanchez preserving Anciong Bacon's teaching methods. Some have different teaching methods, some have included personal touches, but the core of the style is very much taken from Anciong Bacon. and all loyally credit Anciong Bacon for their style and philosophy.

As far as politics (since it's obvious this is where your line of questioning is leading to), various sub-groups within Balintawak actually get along very well, this is of course with some few individual exceptions due to egos. Maranga's Combat Eskrima Maranga, Teovel Balintawak Group, Balintawak Original, and others stay in contact with one another, since many of them have known each other since the 60s and 70s in Cebu.

So, in a general way, one can say that Anciong Bacon's successors are his older students, whose names we've already covered, and the newer ones like Bobby Taboada, Bobby Tabimina, and others in the late 60s, and 70s group, whom Anciong Bacon consistently "checked up" on.

My research into the San Miguel Eskrima system of Momoy Canete yeilded the following information about Jesus Cui, which I have placed on my website (http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze4fs8i/):

"He (Momoy) later studied Combat Judo with Jeseus Cui and blended its principles with his eskrima. Jesus Cui was also versed in espada y daga (Punta y Daga) and Tapi-Tapi. He is credited with orienting Momoy towards a traditional mid- to long-range style of eskrima, in contrast to the shorter-range styles that were becoming more popular. His eskrima was sometimes referred to as the "Batangueno" style."

Any additions or corrections are appreciated.

At http://www.krishnagodhania.com/profiles/inting.html, Krishna Godhania writes:

"During the early 1950s, the Doce Pares club was experiencing a difficult period. Personal differences forced one of its original members, Venancio "Ansiong" Bacon, to separate and form his own system – balintawak arnis. With this departure many leading eskrimadors also decided to leave doce pares and follow the venerated Bacon. Among these was the expert knifefighter Jesus Cui."

Best,

Steve Lamade
Steve,

First thanks for the link back to this forum from your website :)

I was not able to find the discusson on Jesus Cui. Is it possible for you to guide me to which article and or sub page has the post.

Thank You
:asian:

Steve,

First thanks for the link back to this forum from your website :)

I was not able to find the discusson on Jesus Cui. Is it possible for you to guide me to which article and or sub page has the post.

Thank You
:asian:

Rich,

The first quote is located on this page:

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze4fs8i/momoy.htm

The information about Jesus Cui was based on conversations that Tom Bisio had with Yoling Canete in 1984 (?), as well as personal email correspondence with Ramon Rubia and Steve Drape - and Steve Drapes article on Eskrima in post-1900 Cebu. It is, admittedly, not a lot - but the focus was supposed to be on teachers that influenced Momoy Canete. (In that respect, I have always thought that there is a great book or article out there to be written about the Saavedras, if someone had access to information about them.)

A google search for "Jesus Cui" yielded the web page about Inting Carin; I thought it was interesting that Jesus Cui is referred to as an knife expert (other sources also indicate that he was a Jujustu teacher).

Best,

Steve Lamade

Rich,

The first quote is located on this page:

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze4fs8i/momoy.htm

The information about Jesus Cui was based on conversations that Tom Bisio had with Yoling Canete in 1984 (?), as well as personal email correspondence with Ramon Rubia and Steve Drape - and Steve Drapes article on Eskrima in post-1900 Cebu. It is, admittedly, not a lot - but the focus was supposed to be on teachers that influenced Momoy Canete. (In that respect, I have always thought that there is a great book or article out there to be written about the Saavedras, if someone had access to information about them.)

A google search for "Jesus Cui" yielded the web page about Inting Carin; I thought it was interesting that Jesus Cui is referred to as an knife expert (other sources also indicate that he was a Jujustu teacher).

Best,

Steve Lamade
Thank You Steve.

I have heard the name before and it was always associated with the Combat Judo and also with Doces Pares and Stick and Knife. I could see the extrapolation to Knife only, quite easily. I although had not heard of Jesus Cui as being Balintawak. I am planing on asking my instructor Manong Ted Buot Tomorrow when I see him.

As I have said before, if you get a chance to train with any of the names form Cebu who were in the Doces Pares or Balintawak or in their own art. You should check it out.

Just my opinion.
:asian:

"The information about Jesus Cui was based on conversations that Tom Bisio had with Yoling Canete in 1984 (?), as well as personal email correspondence with Ramon Rubia and Steve Drape - and Steve Drapes article on Eskrima in post-1900 Cebu. It is, admittedly, not a lot - but the focus was supposed to be on teachers that influenced Momoy Canete."

this is going on a tangent, but is this the same tom bisio from pekiti tirsia who defeated a master(?) from doce pares named uy in 1979? if so, did he train with yoling canete before or after his time with leo gaje? i read this in a forum, but have forgotten which, i'll try to find where i read this in the mean time.

I talked to Manong Buot tonight. He informed me that even though Jesus Cui was a close personal friend to Bacon and the Balintawak club, he was not a Balintawak practitioner.

Question 4

How does Crispulo Atillo fit into the mix? The following is posted on the net and it seems to conflict with some of the things that I've read.


Atillo Balintawak is a powerful Filipino martial art developed by Grandmaster Crispulo "Ising" Atillo based on the style of the legendary Grandmaster Doring Saavedra. This art focuses on stick fighting, and its application with bladed weapons, as well as empty hands. It is a highly efficient style in combat and tournament situations. Art, efficiency, and power are put together to produce this awesome fighting system for self-defense.

Question 4

How does Crispulo Atillo fit into the mix? The following is posted on the net and it seems to conflict with some of the things that I've read.


Atillo Balintawak is a powerful Filipino martial art developed by Grandmaster Crispulo "Ising" Atillo based on the style of the legendary Grandmaster Doring Saavedra. This art focuses on stick fighting, and its application with bladed weapons, as well as empty hands. It is a highly efficient style in combat and tournament situations. Art, efficiency, and power are put together to produce this awesome fighting system for self-defense.

I've already posted this on another thread, but here it is again:

http://dogbrothers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=218 (http://dogbrothers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=218)

It's from the Dog Brothers forum. A very lively and entertaining discussion, to say the least, about the very question you've just asked.

this is going on a tangent, but is this the same tom bisio from pekiti tirsia who defeated a master(?) from doce pares named uy in 1979? if so, did he train with yoling canete before or after his time with leo gaje? i read this in a forum, but have forgotten which, i'll try to find where i read this in the mean time.

Tom Bisio shared the co-champion title with Master Uy. He trained with Momoy Canete on three separate occasions from 1979-1984. Tom left the Leo Gaje's Pekiti Tirsia organization in the early 1990's. Up until recently, he has taught Filipino martial arts, Kajukenbo (Emperado method), Xing Yi Quan, and Ba Gua Zhang, in New York, and currently runs an acupuncture clinic that specializes in the treatment of musculoskeletal injuries. He has a book coming out this fall, from Simon and Schuster, on the treatment of sports injuries from the perspective of Chinese medicine - as well as a couple other books in development.

Best,

Steve Lamade

here's a 1950s photo. the three attorneys in the middle sitting are flanked by Anciong Bacon and Jesus Cui. to Anciong Bacon's right is Delfin Lopez. standing in the opposite end are Vincente Atillo and Timoteo Maranga. in the middle of this same row is Arnulfo Mongcal. standing behind Atillo and Maranga is Eduardo Baculi.

(all the info came out of this forum)

http://cebueskrima.s5.com/images/groupweb.jpg


http://cebueskrima.s5.com/images/groupweb.jpg (http://cebueskrima.s5.com/images/groupweb.jpg)
Joe,

Where did the information about Jesus Cui come from for this picture.

Manong Ted Buot who met and knew the gentleman, did not recognize him at all in this picture. Now I agree the print I had may not have been the best. Hence my request for where your data came from?


Also to Jesus Cui issue, Manong Ted informed me tonight that Jesus and Anciong were real close. They would watch the other train but not actually train with each other. When Manong Ted Buot and Jesus Cui were on the floor together it was Jesus trying to show people Combat Judo. Jesus Cui did have some real good Karate and Judo, as well as training in the Doces Pares. The story I was also told included the son of Jesus and that he could break coconuts with his hands and strikes.

Like I said, no disrespect, I am just trying to find the link to Balintawak other than he was a very good friend to GM Anciong Bacon.

Thanks
:asian:

I've already posted this on another thread, but here it is again:

http://dogbrothers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=218 (http://dogbrothers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=218)

It's from the Dog Brothers forum. A very lively and entertaining discussion, to say the least, about the very question you've just asked.

Joe,

I do not know if you were involved in that discussion much or not.

I have a problem with a lot of the information on that thread.

Yet, it does explain why you once posted Balintawak Arnis. You may have seen it there or been a part of GM Taboada's group that sometimes uses this term. It was and is Eskrima or Escrima, or that is how I have heard the two who trianed there tell me. This is how I have seen it written by many others as well.

As pointed out by Toasty over there, if you read all the different histories and they are all close and have over lapping information then this rings true. If one sticks out like a sore thumb, because of how different it is then, I suspect it.

As I pointed out earlier on this board and others:

Anyone from that linage who trained in Cebu or directly with one of those from there should have skill.

All the problems between Doces Pares and Balintawak were between students not the instructors. Yet in this case with Atillo, I believe the issue now hinges around what he has said and told people. I do not doubt he has faught. I do not doubt he has skill. Yet, I do not like all combat matches (* anymore *).

A big issue was raised of who had actullly faught with out armor. I think this is smart to do and to learn the hard way that it hurts and it is serious. Try it with someone with a tire iron or a 2X4 or baseball bat or stick who does nto know you and wants to kill or serious hurt you.

And even then to me it does matter anymore about this. Been there done that. I did not like the police hand cuffs. I did like spending my nights in the hospital (* As the winner, I was conscious most of the others were not. *). So, I see no personal reason to go out and fight. I will defend myself, and as Rocky put it on another thread, he made himself available, as I did. So, I coudl tell the police i was just standing there when it all went down. Yet what does it mean? Nothing today. That was then. Or that is how i see it for myself.

Yet, I do find it hard to believe that he wishes to honor his father and Anciong both by using Balintawak and making claims, including beating people he has not faught. And I am not discussing the Anciong Bacon supposed fight or training session either. Why would someone have to say these things to make themselves feel better? Why would they have to say these things to make others feel bad? To make more money? To get more students?

As I stated before, just train, learn from people you can learn from. Investigate and listen to what others have to say.

Sorry for my Rant.
:asian:

jesus cui was mentioned by my teacher as being responsible for the combat judo and knife defenses found in balintawak. this was my first exposure to this name. i researched in the internet and found more consistent information about jesus cui and balintawak (that he was somehow connected to balintawak during the beginning years of this organization). i stumbled on the picture above and asked about it. someone mentioned that the guy sitting opposite of anciong bacon, flanking the three lawyers, was indeed jesus cui. i assumed this was jesus cui. now, as you have stated, maybe it isn't jesus cui.



Yet, it does explain why you once posted Balintawak Arnis. You may have seen it there or been a part of GM Taboada's group that sometimes uses this term. It was and is Eskrima or Escrima, or that is how I have heard the two who trianed there tell me. This is how I have seen it written by many others as well.

this part i don't understand at all, what you're trying to say.

jesus cui was mentioned by my teacher as being responsible for the combat judo and knife defenses found in balintawak. this was my first exposure to this name. i researched in the internet and found more consistent information about jesus cui and balintawak (that he was somehow connected to balintawak during the beginning years of this organization). i stumbled on the picture above and asked about it. someone mentioned that the guy sitting opposite of anciong bacon, flanking the three lawyers, was indeed jesus cui. i assumed this was jesus cui. now, as you have stated, maybe it isn't jesus cui.



Yet, it does explain why you once posted Balintawak Arnis. You may have seen it there or been a part of GM Taboada's group that sometimes uses this term. It was and is Eskrima or Escrima, or that is how I have heard the two who trianed there tell me. This is how I have seen it written by many others as well.

this part i don't understand at all, what you're trying to say.
With the exception of GM Taboada's Group which uses Balintawak Arnis or at one Cuentada Balintawak Arnis Escrima or Balintawak Arnis Escrima. GM Taboada did this to show respect to his lineage and also to show it was not 100% the same. GM Remy Presas and Manong (GM) Ted Buot who both trained at the club on Balintawak street, told me that the art was/is Escrima and the practitioners are Escrimadors.

It was not meant as any type of insult. It was meant to make sure the proper name name was being used. In reference to the Balintawak Street, everone I have personally talked to says Escrima. GM Bobby Taboada has put in Arnis as well. This is his priviledge. GM Remy Presas also called his art Modern Arnis, because he did add many things and changed the teaching method hence his own art.

I know how you present yourself here as someone who tries to get the data correct. I was just pointing out where you could improve to avoid confusion. GM B Taboada's website currently has Baliantawak Arnis Escrima.

:asian:

oh, sorry... that was my mistake then. i just simply copied the website address which was balintawak-arnis.com, hence the 'bobby taboada's balintawak arnis' title. i wasn't aware this word carried so much meaning. my apologies.

oh, sorry... that was my mistake then. i just simply copied the website address which was balintawak-arnis.com, hence the 'bobby taboada's balintawak arnis' title. i wasn't aware this word carried so much meaning. my apologies.
No Apologies required.

I just wanted to share theinformation wiht you as you seem to be interested.

You have tried to share infomration wiht me and others here, I thought it was only fair. :asian:

Best Regards

Question 4
How does Crispulo Atillo fit into the mix? The following is posted on the net and it seems to conflict with some of the things that I've read.

Atillo Balintawak is a powerful Filipino martial art developed by Grandmaster Crispulo "Ising" Atillo based on the style of the legendary Grandmaster Doring Saavedra. This art focuses on stick fighting, and its application with bladed weapons, as well as empty hands. It is a highly efficient style in combat and tournament situations. Art, efficiency, and power are put together to produce this awesome fighting system for self-defense.

Sound like someone's STORY is a little off. :toilclaw:

You cannot really blame GM Atillo... The martial arts industry is a very Cut-Throat business.

You cannot really blame GM Atillo... The martial arts industry is a very Cut-Throat business.

If his information is wrong then, yes I can blame him!

Atillo Balintawak is a powerful Filipino martial art developed by Grandmaster Crispulo "Ising" Atillo based on the style of the legendary Grandmaster Doring Saavedra. This art focuses on stick fighting, and its application with bladed weapons, as well as empty hands. It is a highly efficient style in combat and tournament situations. Art, efficiency, and power are put together to produce this awesome fighting system for self-defense.

I think what he did was credit the art back to one of its ancestors. The Saavedras were among the original players of Doce Pares and Bacon and Vicente Atillo learned from them. Vicente Atillo left Doce Pares with Bacon and was part of what eventually became Balintawak. Vicente Atillo taught Ising Atillo. A lot of credit is given to the Saavedras in the Doce Pares >> Balintawak lineage. Even if it is just for marketing, it holds some water. Also it's very similar to advertisements that a lot of EPAK and Wing Chun derivative guys do with Ed Parker, Yip Man, and Bruce Lee.

That point was already brought up in the DogBrothers forum, bart... the rebuttle for that was that if GM Atillo wanted to credit Saavedra then why not call his art Doce Pares or Saavedra Eskrima? Also why would one have to claim that he defeated Venancio Bacon to "credit the art back to one of its ancestors". This has been covered in the DogBrothers forum, if you've read it. Basically, the discussion stopped at this question: Who lied about the Ising Atillo vs. Anciong Bacon challenge match, GM Atillo himself or his students?

Me, personally, I think the students got a little too eager, but since they took most of the not so accurate contents off their website, there should be no more problem.

That point was already brought up in the DogBrothers forum, bart... the rebuttle for that was that if GM Atillo wanted to credit Saavedra then why not call his art Doce Pares or Saavedra Eskrima? Also why would one have to claim that he defeated Venancio Bacon to "credit the art back to one of its ancestors". This has been covered in the DogBrothers forum, if you've read it. Basically, the discussion stopped at this question: Who lied about the Ising Atillo vs. Anciong Bacon challenge match, GM Atillo himself or his students?


I read that thread and stayed out of it. Many of the people made their claims on heresay and ultimately it just go too nasty and descended into name calling and challenges etc. I didn't see a contribution to a flame war as productive.

I should have been more clear, but by credit I did not mean "give credit", I meant "use the credit of". Could it be that he is using both of the names Balintawak and Saavedra to make his style more known and recognizable and to give his art a sense of additional legitimacy? If he claims he defeated the founder of Balintawak, he still is using the name for self aggrandizement. Also regardless of whether credit is being used or given, the fact is there is Saavedra in his lineage from his father and from the Doce Pares that Balintawak emerged from. So although on the surface it is somewhat misleading it is also, albeit in a lesser sense, somewhat true. And I assume that he would stay away from calling his own art Doce Pares because of his duel with Doce Pares GM Cacoy Canete which he did not win.

I don't mean to defend Atillo, I'm not his student. I'm not his proponent. But regardless of what untruths there are in what he has said, mixed among them there are some true things. He does have a direct lineage to the Saavedras. All he did in his advertisement was skip the middle men.

I agree, bart. His father's picture, does appear in that old Balintawak photo taken in the 1950s. As far as I am concerned, the Atillo/Bacon fight has been debunked. Everything has been cleared up.

I read that thread and stayed out of it. Many of the people made their claims on heresay and ultimately it just go too nasty and descended into name calling and challenges etc. I didn't see a contribution to a flame war as productive.

I should have been more clear, but by credit I did not mean "give credit", I meant "use the credit of". Could it be that he is using both of the names Balintawak and Saavedra to make his style more known and recognizable and to give his art a sense of additional legitimacy? If he claims he defeated the founder of Balintawak, he still is using the name for self aggrandizement. Also regardless of whether credit is being used or given, the fact is there is Saavedra in his lineage from his father and from the Doce Pares that Balintawak emerged from. So although on the surface it is somewhat misleading it is also, albeit in a lesser sense, somewhat true. And I assume that he would stay away from calling his own art Doce Pares because of his duel with Doce Pares GM Cacoy Canete which he did not win.

I don't mean to defend Atillo, I'm not his student. I'm not his proponent. But regardless of what untruths there are in what he has said, mixed among them there are some true things. He does have a direct lineage to the Saavedras. All he did in his advertisement was skip the middle men.

Bart,

I think I agree with you here :).

It is good to give credit to your lineage and those that helped you get where you are. If you do something all by yourself and split away, and you still give credit to where your fundamentals and basics and original instruction came from, I think this is good. Including the use of teh Saavedras.

I do think it is a problem though for someone to use names that are misleading, and are only there for marketing or gathering of students.

Like I said before, Atillo should just teach, and let his stick work and tecniques speak for himself. Yet this is me.

He does have a direct lineage to the Saavedras. All he did in his advertisement was skip the middle men.


I thought I remember reading somewhere that he and/or his father were students of Delphin Lopez.


?????

I thought I remember reading somewhere that he and/or his father were students of Delphin Lopez.
?????

Please excuse me but I'm going to quote myself from earlier in the thread.


The Saavedras were among the original players of Doce Pares and Bacon and Vicente Atillo learned from them. Vicente Atillo left Doce Pares with Bacon and was part of what eventually became Balintawak. Vicente Atillo taught Ising Atillo. A lot of credit is given to the Saavedras in the Doce Pares >> Balintawak lineage.


I don't know for sure about Vincente Atillo training under Delphin Lopez as a student. I think they were contemporaries at least although I don't know so I'm not sure. As for Ising Atillo, he very well might have been a student of Delphin Lopez at one time or another. I don't know for sure. The thing about these eskrimadors is they train under different people at different times throughout pretty long lives and have direct lineages from different points. But regardless of whether they were students of Delphin Lopez, the lineage to Saavedra is still there as Delphin Lopez has a relationship with Saavedra.

Red,

Your bio just says FMA/JKD, I was curious who your intel sources might be and where you are training in Bk? I started with Bobby Taboada a while ago, but had to stop for education and deployment reasons. I know that the majority here are Ted Buot students, but wasn't sure for you since JKD is geographically more common on the west coast and in NYC.

[QUOTE=]QUOTE]


Quoted the wrong one.

But regardless of whether they were students of Delphin Lopez, the lineage to Saavedra is still there as Delphin Lopez has a relationship with Saavedra.


If this is true then no credit was given to his teacher, Delphin Lopez or his teacher Anciong Bacon.

If this is true then no credit was given to his teacher, Delphin Lopez or his teacher Anciong Bacon.

Only if you take this as the only statement he's ever made about eskrima.


Atillo is not a youngster and he's said many things, apparently some true, some false, some in between the two, and sometimes misleading things as well.

Paul Vunak sites Bruce Lee as a person that he based his fighting philosophy on, but Bruce died a couple years before Paul started training in a JKD curriculum. Is it misleading for him to site Bruce as he does? I don't think so. I credit some of what I teach in my classes as having origin in the writings of Marcus Aurelius, Sun Tzu, and Lao Tze. Am I wrong for not mentioning the professors that introduced me to their writings everytime that I say something about it? I don't think so.

When Atillo is attributing his stuff to Saavedra, he is citing a reference as a basis for his style. And like most people who are established in an art, he has a lot to draw from, among them apparently Delphin Lopez and others.

The original question here was the honesty of the statement. The truth is that in his lineage he does have a close and direct lineage to Saavedra through his father alone as well as the many teachers that he's had and come across over the years including Anciong Bacon. So the claim, even though misleading in the marketing ploy, is nonetheless NOT devoid of truth.

Again, I don't intend to defend Atillo, but what he is saying has truth in it regardless of whether people are rankled by it or not.

Again, I don't intend to defend Atillo, but what he is saying has truth in it regardless of whether people are rankled by it or not.


So does this mean since Datu Hartman was a student of GM Presas he should give credit to the Saavedras?

If this is true then no credit was given to his teacher, Delphin Lopez or his teacher Anciong Bacon.

I am going to try not to "slam" anyone here until I have a chance to meet/play with the man or his students myself, or before my Teacher has the chance to meet with him or talk with him face to face (if that ever happends), because until I know all sides outside "internet" stuff, I don't feel that it is my place. So...bare with me here.

It appears that Atillo is attempting to appeal to a higher authority, and that he is not being straight forward about his lineage. In other words, Everyone else who claims Balintawak agrees that Anciong is the top of the family tree for the art. Even though he learned from the Saavadre family, it is clear that his developement was unique enough, in comparison to others from the same lineage, to start his own system. This is evident when you compare Doce Pares to Balintawak; there are as many similarities as differences, and it is clear that the styles are different, even though the lineage of both can be traced to the Saavadre family.

So, every other Balintawak player accept Atillo agree's to be on a similar playing field, in that they all regard Anciong as the top of the family tree. Atillo, it appears, does not want to be on this playing field, so he is attempting to appeal to a "higher authority" then Anciong by acrediting both his father and Saavadre's (Anciongs teacher, ironically) with his instruction. By appealing to this authority, he puts himself on the same tier as Anciong, thus making everyone else who claims Anciong as the top of the family tree "below him." Furthermore, by fabricating the idea that he was able to beat Anciong in a "play" match, he now puts himself above even Anciong himself.

Now, of course, only his students will buy this premises. Everyone else on the planet see's that there is something fishy going on here, and that the facts aren't matching up.

Now, there are some obvious problems with what has happened here. For one, the biggest problem with this, or ANY kind of posturing with regards to lineage, rank, title, or status, is that NONE OF THESE ARE CONDUSIVE TO SKILL. There is a logical falicy called "argumentum ad verecudiam" which basically means that you appeal to a higher authority to try to determine an arguement, which doesn't make the arguement true. When people try to posture with lineage, rank, or status, then this is exactly what is occuring. In this case, the arguement is, "Atillo's lineage goes beyond Anciong Bacon, so he must be "better" then everyone else under Anciong's lineage!" This would be equally as illogical as me saying, "I can beat up so and so because I have a black belt, and he has a brown belt." The only thing that determines who has more skill is if practioners have the chance to test each others skill out to "prove" who is better, and lineage or rank will not make this any different.

Problem #2 is that a lot of the claims that are being made publically have no actual proof behind them. When you make a claim, the burden of proof is on YOU, not everyone else. If you make a claim, especially if it is a claim that seems very unbelievable, then you have to expect that people want to see proof. If you can't provide proof, then you shouldn't state the claim publically in the first place. So, let's say that I beat Mike Tyson in an arm wrestling match (I didn't, but lets just say). I might tell you this over some beers, where I don't care if you believe it or not. But, I am not going to put it up on a website or on the internet or in my marketing materials unless I can provide evidence that this event really occured (if called on), otherwise I will be called a liar. The point is, when you make a claim that can't be verified, you risk being looked at as a lying. This often causes you to have to try to verify the claim through more shakey evidence, which makes you look worse. Or, some people will resort to outright lying which causes another trap altogether.

Problem #3 Lying breeds more lies. Maybe Atillo decided to inflate a story here or there to market himself. Maybe it was his students. Maybe it was a mixture of both. Maybe stories just got inflated mysteriously by accident. Regardless, the inflation of credability is a lie. And lie's reduce your credability to practically nothing. However, the biggest problem with lies is if and when they are called out, you are now put between a rock and a hard place. You can either admit that you lied, therefore damaging your credability. Or, you can stick to the lie and try to cover it up. The later usually takes even MORE lies and inflated stories to do so. The fish ends up getting so big that no one believes you except your "followers" and your credibility is damaged even more-so then if you would have just admitted to lying in the first place.

So these are the problems that Atillo and his group has. I am not going to sit here and say that he isn't skilled, or that his students aren't skilled. I have never seen them to know one way or the other. I am not here calling Atillo a liar, at least not at this time. I am here to say that Atillo seems to have caught himself between a rock and a hard place. There are claims out there that are "big fish" to the public eye. I am not sure what started it initially, but the irony is that some information started for marketing reasons; information that may not be entirely true, or may be true but unverifiable. This information was challanged, so more and more claims came out, causing a snowball effect.

Whether deserved or not, the "Fish" is so big now that it has become uncontrolable, and can barely fit in the lake. The majority of the players in FMA circles do not believe Atillo's claims 100%. I am not trying to be a jerk here by saying this, I am just stating the cold hard facts. The irony is that if this "fish" was created for marketing reasons, it has had the opposite effect.

Now, I know I said I wasn't going to "slam" anyone, so please note that this isn't the intent of my post. I did not say Atillo was a bad person, unskilled, or a "liar." But I am stating the cold, hard facts as to how he is percieved, and the dilemma that he has created for himself.

I have done P.R. work before, and I know a fair amount about marketing oneself. I worked with an international Law Firm who had built up a bad reputation, and I helped to reverse the public perception of the firm through client contact, marketing, and advertisements. I would be happy to offer my advice and help as to how to "reverse" this dilemma to Atillo and his students if I ever get the chance to meet them, and if this subject matter is brought up. So, before Atillo's students or anybody else trys to discredit or slam me and my post, I suggest that you realize that I am only stating the facts, and that I am willing to help rather then hurt Atillo and his situation.

:asian:

So does this mean since Datu Hartman was a student of GM Presas he should give credit to the Saavedras?


How did you come up with that? You missed the flow of ideas.

Bear with me and allow me to create a hypothetical situation. Imagine that Tim begins training a guy named Vinny DeLucia in 1986. For 10 years they train together under Remy, but Tim is no doubt senior to Vinny. Then Vinny's son Tony starts training mainly under Vinny and sometimes with Tim and rarely with Remy. A few years go by and GM Presas passes away and Vinny sticks with Tim. Vinny and Tony keep training for 20 or so years until Tim passes away. 10 years later Vinny passes away and then 10 years later in 2041, Tony DeLucia decides that he wants to have his own organization. In an advertisement he calls his style "DeLucia Modern Arnis based on the teachings of Remy Presas". Is he wrong in making that claim? I don't think so. Is there any truth to it? Yes, there is SOME truth to it. Is it the whole truth, NO.

To answer your question though, should he give credit to the Saavedras? No, he doesn't have to, but I don't think he could be faulted if he did, because there is some truth to it, especially if Tim studied and worked specifically on things that Remy identified as being taught by the Saavedras and tailored his personal style to fit along those lines. Not that he hasn't, but in the light of that question Tim might want to give credit to the Marangas, Mongcal, Bacon, or some others in the Balintawak group as well as the Saavedras.

How did you come up with that?

Hartman was a student of Presas.

Presas was a student of Bacon.

Bacon was a student of the Saavedras.

I understand tracing and giving credit for their roots but, I was of the understanding that Balintawak was related to Doce Pares and not that same art.

I doesn't make sense to me claiming Balintawak as your art and not giving credit to it's founder.

The Saavedras did Doce Pares and Bacon did Balintawak.

For the record, if GM Atillio is in my are for a seminar I would go see him.

For the record, if GM Atillio is in my are for a seminar I would go see him.

Your profile doesn't say. Where exactly are you?

Metro Chicago.

What we have here is a failure to communicate.
-Cool Hand Luke



Hartman was a student of Presas.
Presas was a student of Bacon.
Bacon was a student of the Saavedras.

I understood how you got that part. Hartman's link to the Saavedras is there if he wanted to use it.

I understand tracing and giving credit for their roots but, I was of the understanding that Balintawak was related to Doce Pares and not that same art.
I doesn't make sense to me claiming Balintawak as your art and not giving credit to it's founder.


Yes, Balintawak and Doce Pares are related and yes they are not the same. But at one point in time they were. Balintawak grew out of Doce Pares and then became something of its own later on as it developed. Doce Pares and Balintawak were also both originally more clubs than styles and within each there is a great variety of personal expression. In the years since the split, Doce Pares and Balintawak have developed as well and new styles grew, in many different directions, out of both groups.

As for why he would still claim Balintawak, I posted about that earlier and my opinion is still the same.

Let's try something a little different.

When was Balintawak formed?

How did you come up with that? You missed the flow of ideas.

Bear with me and allow me to create a hypothetical situation. Imagine that Tim begins training a guy named Vinny DeLucia in 1986. For 10 years they train together under Remy, but Tim is no doubt senior to Vinny. Then Vinny's son Tony starts training mainly under Vinny and sometimes with Tim and rarely with Remy. A few years go by and GM Presas passes away and Vinny sticks with Tim. Vinny and Tony keep training for 20 or so years until Tim passes away. 10 years later Vinny passes away and then 10 years later in 2041, Tony DeLucia decides that he wants to have his own organization. In an advertisement he calls his style "DeLucia Modern Arnis based on the teachings of Remy Presas". Is he wrong in making that claim? I don't think so. Is there any truth to it? Yes, there is SOME truth to it. Is it the whole truth, NO.

To answer your question though, should he give credit to the Saavedras? No, he doesn't have to, but I don't think he could be faulted if he did, because there is some truth to it, especially if Tim studied and worked specifically on things that Remy identified as being taught by the Saavedras and tailored his personal style to fit along those lines. Not that he hasn't, but in the light of that question Tim might want to give credit to the Marangas, Mongcal, Bacon, or some others in the Balintawak group as well as the Saavedras.

No offense Bart, but I disagree with your logic here.

For one, he isn't just saying "My system is based off Saavadre's methods," He is bypassing Anciong altogether and saying he learned from Saavadre's himself, and his dad who learned from Saavadre's also. Yet, he is calling his art Balintawak, which is Anciong's art. Also, it is clear that Doce Pares, old and new (as led by Canete family today), is a stick and dagger art, while Balintawak is just stick. Atillo's art is also just stick.

But, hey...WTF? I am starting my own system up tomorrow. I'll call it Modern Arnis, but based off the Saavadre method. Then, the next part of my plan will be to build up storys about how Remy Presas wasn't really my instructor, and that I beat him single cane. No problem...know Why? Because Remy P. trained with Moncol, Maranga, and Anciong, and Anciong trained with Saavadre's.
Sound Stupid? It should. Sounds like I am trying to by-pass the creator of Modern Arnis to make myself more credable? You bet.

Bottom line....the family tree for Balintawak begins with Anciong, not Saavadre. Anciong had formulated his own single stick method, despite who taught him, creating a new art. To claim the man's art but not give him credit is not only illogical, but it's disrespectful to those of us who are alive and studying the art, and to the old mans grave.

I hope I am not being too harsh here, Bart. I understand what you are saying, and I respect your opinion. However, as I said in my last post, this is a case of a "fish" that has gotten too big. We can try to use faulty logic to justify the man (and his students) behavior, or we can be realistic, and try to come up with a solution to the problem.

I am chosing to be realistic. And, I hope, that Atillo and his guys choose to look for solutions to the problem, because false logic won't solve anything.

PAUL

Red Blade,

Your bio just says FMA/JKD, I was curious who your intel sources might be and where you are training in Bk? Which JKD affiliation are you with?

I started with Bobby Taboada a while ago, but had to stop for education and deployment reasons. I know that the majority here are Ted Buot students, but wasn't sure for you since JKD is geographically more common on the west coast and in NYC.

I did post this before, but I think it got lost in the rapid hits that were going on at the same time.

Let's try something a little different.

When was Balintawak formed?


I think it was 1952 when Bacon formed the system.

I understood how you got that part. Hartman's link to the Saavedras is there if he wanted to use it.


I think what Red Blade meant was should I call the system Bacon's or Saavadre's Modern Arnis.

I credit some of what I teach in my classes as having origin in the writings of Marcus Aurelius, Sun Tzu, and Lao Tze. Am I wrong for not mentioning the professors that introduced me to their writings everytime that I say something about it?

There is nothing wrong with this. At the same token you're not claiming that you learned it directly from Marcus Aurelius, Sun Tzu, and Lao Tze.

If Atillo claims the Saavadres as part of his martial art family tree it would be okay.

If he is claiming that he learned Balintawak from them it would be another.

For the record, if GM Atillio is in my are for a seminar I would go see him.

Here is your chance! Gm Atillo has been calling for a couple months to have him teach a two day training camp at my school. Last night we talked about the details. Sometime between August 04 - April 05 I will have him at my school.

This seminar will be open to the public and will be 10am - 5pm on the Saturday and 9:30am - 3:30pm on the Sunday.

The cost will be:
One day $80 in Advance
Both days $125 in Advance

No video taping allowed.

As soon as I can work out the details I will have them posted.

:-partyon:

P.S. I cleared this with GM Buot before I announced this event!

Metro Chicago.

This is about an 8 hour drive or a 1 hour flight. Anyone flying in for this event let me know and I'll make arrangements to pick you up at the airport. There are many things to do and see in our area including going to see Niagara Fall.

Here is your chance! Gm Atillo has been calling for a couple months to have him teach a two day training camp at my school. Last night we talked about the details. Sometime between August 04 - April 05 I will have him at my school.

This seminar will be open to the public and will be 10am - 5pm on the Saturday and 9:30am - 3:30pm on the Sunday.

The cost will be:
One day $80 in Advance
Both days $125 in Advance

No video taping allowed.

As soon as I can work out the details I will have them posted.

:-partyon:

P.S. I cleared this with GM Buot before I announced this event!

Count me in. Regardless of "politics," disagreements, or "past behaviors," I would be happy to meet a senior instructor in the arts!

:asian:

There is nothing wrong with this. At the same token you're not claiming that you learned it directly from Marcus Aurelius, Sun Tzu, and Lao Tze.

If Atillo claims the Saavadres as part of his martial art family tree it would be okay.

If he is claiming that he learned Balintawak from them it would be another.

I have mentioned Atillo's name to Bobby Taboada before in recent phonecon's and he was nothing but respectful and positive about the man.

Let's try something a little different.

When was Balintawak formed?

Joe E. already answered this back on page one of this thread along with a really comprehensive list of websites by Bk Escrima orgs, seems like you could find your own answers from that.

I enjoy discussions, but you mentioned confirming your info/intel. What is the info you have that you want to compare/contrast? It might be more effective than drawing it out like this.

Okay, let's take it from the top.


Question 1 was:
Why is the art called Balintawak?

Answer: Name of the street the club was on.


Question 2
Who was the Founder of Balintawak?

Answer: Venancio "Anciong" Bacon


Question 3
Did GM Bacon name a successor?

Answer: No straight answer.


Question 4
How does Crispulo Atillo fit into the mix?

Answer: No straight answer.


Question 5
When was Balintawak formed?

Answer: The early to mid 50's


Do we agree on this so far?

Question 3
Did GM Bacon name a successor?
Answer: No straight answer.

Yes, GM Ted Buot. This was done prior to Manong Ted moving to the US. This makes sense seeing that he was the ONLY person that was allowed to teach while GM Bacon wasn't present at the club.
:asian:

Yes, GM Ted Buot. This was done prior to Manong Ted moving to the US. This makes sense seeing that he was the ONLY person that was allowed to teach while GM Bacon wasn't present at the club.

(as explained to me...)

The word successor doesn't really apply in the Philippines. This is more a Chinese/Korean/Japanese cultural trait. This is why no one can trace any FMA system or style prior to the 1900s or late 1890s.

There's no argument that Ted Buot is a respected Master within Balintawak. Maybe he was indeed the only instructor allowed to teach for Anciong Bacon when he was in prison, but to say he was the only "Successor" would go against cultural norms in the Philippines.

When Anciong Bacon was paroled, and Ted Buot was leaving for the US, others were already teaching their own version of Balintawak--more popular of these groups were Jose Villasin and Teofilo Velez's groups (which trained together in the 70s). If Anciong Bacon did name a clear "Successor", as in other Asian martial systems, he would have been really pissed off with the other Balintawak instructors teaching Balintawak.

But, this wasn't the case... Ted Buot was already in the US by the late 1970s. Anciong Bacon was still checking Villasin and Velez's students (as well as others), making sure Balintawak was passed down correctly.

Anciong Bacon died of poverty in the late 1970s. He died a poor man. In the 1970s, before the popularizing of Eskrima and other FMAs, Anciong Bacon was just another eskrimador in the Philippines. He was passionate about his art, he taught those who were interested, those who mastered his art taught others who were interested, and so on and so forth. It was as simple as that in the past.

To open the Pandora's box of Balintawak "SUCCESSORSHIP" (besides missing the whole culture of Balintawak and other FMAs), would only serve to piss on the relationship of the old timers and their art. This is, of course, is no disrespect to Ted Buot... I'm sure he would agree to what I've just wrote.

Here is your chance! Gm Atillo has been calling for a couple months to have him teach a two day training camp at my school...
The cost will be:
One day $80 in Advance
Both days $125 in Advance
P.S. I cleared this with GM Buot before I announced this event!

I just can't help but feel that this thread was a veiled attempt at marketing disguised as an attempt at honest exploration. Renegade, I just hope that when you bring Atillo to your school that you give him the respect that the old man deserves. Regardless of what juniors like us may think about what he says and what he does, it's not for us to "put him in his place." We are not his peers and he is to be treated as an elder. He comes from an old eskrimador family and has a lot to offer regardless of stories here and there.

Joe is right about successorship in the FMA. When GM Bacon got out of jail, the other Balintawak guys recognized him still as the head of their system, but they had already been teaching for a long time and had begun to add their own things to the system. Like it or not, there are many different types of Balintawak, and it would behoove people in the States, just to accept it. Trashing Atillo to his face will close doors for all of us back in the Philippines. Nobody gave permission to GM Bacon to break away from Doce Pares. He didn't need it. Those guys who founded their own systems of Balintawak followed in Bacon's footsteps by doing their own thing. They didn't need to get permission and they kept the name Balintawak not just out of respect for GM Bacon, but because it became something that they made their own. People like Vicente Atillo, Villasin, Velez, etc. are our seniors in the FMA and not our peers. I doesn't matter if we disagree or not with Atillo, he is Vicente Atillo's son and deserves respect simply because of who he is and where he is at in life agewise. Add to that, he fought Cacoy in his prime and others and even though Atillo lost a couple big ones, when "put up or shut up" time came, he "put up." How many of us can say that?

Red Blade,

Your bio just says FMA/JKD, I was curious who your intel sources might be and where you are training in Bk? Which JKD affiliation are you with?


Red Blade, what exactly are your intel sources and what is your background in these arts(FMA/JKD)?

Renegade, I just hope that when you bring Atillo to your school that you give him the respect that the old man deserves.
This has always been the case at Mr. Hartman's school.

I just can't help but feel that this thread was a veiled attempt at marketing disguised as an attempt at honest exploration.


I agree with bart on this one... I feel kinda dumb not getting it in time. Great job, you guys!!! Gives a new meaning to the term McDojo Advertising. Red Blade says "where can I see Atillo perform?"... Renegade, "well it just so happens that I, DATU Tim Hartman, am having GM Atillo over at my school for 125 bucks!!!".

or maybe, I just feel sore for being caught up in this advertising ploy without any knowledge. I feel I deserve atleast some sort of commision for providing all that info (I along with others), to make this advertisement work out. Or atleast an apology...

I’ve taken an interest in Balintawak because of its increased visibility. I’ve seen it on the net and in the magazines for a while. I’m seeing more and more people getting involved and I thought I might try it also.

What I seen over the last couple years is bickering over the facts on GM Atillo’s site, the dog brothers’ site and on e-digest. I’ve been a member of MT since 2001 and I’ve seen many debates. Over all I feel that most threads are handled in a mature manner. I thought that I could get as many facts as I could before I start training.

I have collected information on GM Buot & GM Taboada, but I have very little verified intel on Atillo. If I going to make an educated decision on who to train with I need to get all the facts that I can.

I’ve taken an interest in Balintawak because of its increased visibility.
Maybe my BS meter isn't working very well this weekend, but why does it seem like, from the very start of this thread, you and "RENEGADE" were working in tandem all along? (actually, it doesn't really matter...it would've been more professional had you guys just said "we're having GM Atillo over for a seminar, please come, here's the info", instead of mentioning innuendos, trying to incite a debate. it's sunday... gotta get back to the woodward interview. good luck on the seminar anyhow.)

Lets do this by the numbers...

#1 First, go to this site: www.wmarnis.com; read Datu Hartman's (aka "renegade's") profile. Then, read the list of events.

O.K., now that your armed with that info, think logically. WHY would someone of Tim's status and experience need to coherse with "Red Blade" to create controvery in order to promote an event? He wouldn't. If he wanted to promote an event, he'd just post the information, as he has ALWAYS done in the past. To think otherwise, especially without proof, is illogical given these facts. Furthermore, to suggest it without any evidence is slanderousand disrespectful at best. Frankly, I am disappointed in you, Bart, for this implication, and disappointed in anyone who'd believe such hogwash without any evidence to prove it.

#2 "Renegade, I just hope that when you bring Atillo to your school that you give him the respect that the old man deserves."

As Arnisidor has said, proper respect has always been given. Why would you think otherwise is this case? To think otherwise would be illogical, given that there is no history of Datu Tim NOT giving respect to someone he hosts at his school.

#3 In regards to the senior issue...Atillo is my senior. Because my teacher, Manong Ted Buot, is alive and well, I agree that it is not in my place to "put him (atillo) in his place," and I have said this myself previously in this thread. However, if it is proven that someone is lying, the "senior card" has lost all validity, in my opinion, and we can say/do as we please. However, since my teacher is still alive, and since I don't have all the facts from his side of the story, I won't be taking it upon myself to put anyone "in their place" at this time. As far as I am concerned, until the dynamics change, Atillo will recieve respect as he deserves from me. My teacher is still alive to sort out any problems regarding this matter, so it is not nessicary for me to confront him or his students.

I think that all of Manong Ted's students feel this way as well.

#4 On "successorship," people can do whatever they want. The FACT is that Manong Ted Buot was the only person deligated to teach in the school in Cebu outside of Anciong. This is a fact. No one is claiming that other people can't teach their version of the art, we'd just like it everyone kept their facts straight.

#5 Conclusion:

So, lets start using our brains, here, fella's, before we start blaming people for being disrespectful, or being "MCdojo advertisor's," or any other sillyness. Your reproach doesn't match logically with the facts.

Thank you.

PAUL

(as explained to me...)

The word successor doesn't really apply in the Philippines. This is more a Chinese/Korean/Japanese cultural trait. This is why no one can trace any FMA system or style prior to the 1900s or late 1890s.

There's no argument that Ted Buot is a respected Master within Balintawak. Maybe he was indeed the only instructor allowed to teach for Anciong Bacon when he was in prison, but to say he was the only "Successor" would go against cultural norms in the Philippines.

When Anciong Bacon was paroled, and Ted Buot was leaving for the US, others were already teaching their own version of Balintawak--more popular of these groups were Jose Villasin and Teofilo Velez's groups (which trained together in the 70s). If Anciong Bacon did name a clear "Successor", as in other Asian martial systems, he would have been really pissed off with the other Balintawak instructors teaching Balintawak.

But, this wasn't the case... Ted Buot was already in the US by the late 1970s. Anciong Bacon was still checking Villasin and Velez's students (as well as others), making sure Balintawak was passed down correctly.

Anciong Bacon died of poverty in the late 1970s. He died a poor man. In the 1970s, before the popularizing of Eskrima and other FMAs, Anciong Bacon was just another eskrimador in the Philippines. He was passionate about his art, he taught those who were interested, those who mastered his art taught others who were interested, and so on and so forth. It was as simple as that in the past.

To open the Pandora's box of Balintawak "SUCCESSORSHIP" (besides missing the whole culture of Balintawak and other FMAs), would only serve to piss on the relationship of the old timers and their art. This is, of course, is no disrespect to Ted Buot... I'm sure he would agree to what I've just wrote.


Joe,

I also understand that others were teaching their modified or grouped versions at that time. Or their take on things. Yet, Did GM Anciong BAcon give them permission to do so? I beleive they were already established teachers, wiht a good reputaton and coulddefend themselves, so the answer could be they might not have needed his permission. Yet again, did he have them come in and teach at his club like he had Manong Ted Buot do? NO disrespect to any of those old masters and GM's. If you are argueing semantics it is best to make sure we get a valid definition.

:asian:

Maybe my BS meter isn't working very well this weekend, but why does it seem like, from the very start of this thread, you and "RENEGADE" were working in tandem all along? (actually, it doesn't really matter...it would've been more professional had you guys just said "we're having GM Atillo over for a seminar, please come, here's the info", instead of mentioning innuendos, trying to incite a debate. it's sunday... gotta get back to the woodward interview. good luck on the seminar anyhow.)

Joe-

I have never used tactics like this in the past and I'm not going to start now! You are new to MT, so you don't know my posting history. Take a look of my posting history and you'll see that when I announce a seminar I just come out and announce it. If either Bart or yourself would like to discuss this my cell is 716-432-0600.
:asian:

but to say he was the only "Successor" would go against cultural norms in the Philippines..

If this is the case then why would GM Presas (a Filipino) publicly name me as one of his Successors?

If Anciong Bacon did name a clear "Successor", as in other Asian martial systems, he would have been really pissed off with the other Balintawak instructors teaching Balintawak.

Are you sure he didn't? GM Buot was there and you weren't.

To open the Pandora's box of Balintawak "SUCCESSORSHIP" (besides missing the whole culture of Balintawak and other FMAs), would only serve to piss on the relationship of the old timers and their art. This is, of course, is no disrespect to Ted Buot... I'm sure he would agree to what I've just wrote.

Maybe you should ask him yourself!

Tim has always posted his seminar information way ahead of time so that evryone who wanted to show up could. He has named those who would be inattendence teaching and notables that whould be ther also. He updates that information as it changes.
He has always been up frount with this information on this forum

I think I understand this whole "successorship" BS now. It's a Modern Arnis fetish. "you are my successor!!!". "you are my heir". "you are my next in line".

If we took this seriously, then we'd have to ask who Ted Buot's "successor" is? Datu Tim Hartman?

or how about this... (let's fry our brain cells a little here) who was Anciong Bacon the successor of? Lorenzo Saavedra (his only teacher)? Does Lorenzo Saavedra know this? and who was Saavedra the successor of?

Of course the impetus here is obvious... "I am the "successor" of Presas and Buot (who was the only successor of Bacon), this is the reason I can charge 125 bucks a seminar. Why? Because I am the SUCCESSOR!!!"

as far as the seminar is concerned, it was far too coincidental. One person starts a thread about GM Atillo, another starts with the "he is wrong, my master is the successor BS", and after awhile, "hey folks, i'm having this guy over for only 125 bucks!!!".

If Ted Buot was the only "SUCCESSOR" of Bacon, and everyone followed this formal "decree", no one would've known about Balintawak in Cebu, the Philippines, New Zealand, Australia, Germany, and all other countries Balintawak is now known. What does this make other Balintawak fighters who never trained with Buot? Are they fakes? Sub-standard maybe? If so, all you need to do is contact Bobby Taboada, Nick Elizar, Bobby Tabimina, and all others who didn't train under Ted Buot.

I know I'm not Filipino, but I atleast try to learn the very culture whose art I'm practicing. But, then again it's not the Money for me, I just love the Art. (But then again, maybe I should get my teacher to write me a certificate or contract saying he'll make me HIS "successor"... It might prove profitable in the future)

While you guys wallow in this commercialized version of Balintawak, please remember that the guy who began this all, died a very poor and uneventful death. He never got a penny (or centavo) from this. Remember this while you're making money as a "Balintawak Successor".

I'm out...

I think I understand this whole "successorship" BS now. It's a Modern Arnis fetish. "you are my successor!!!". "you are my heir". "you are my next in line".

If we took this seriously, then we'd have to ask who Ted Buot's "successor" is? Datu Tim Hartman?

or how about this... (let's fry our brain cells a little here) who was Anciong Bacon the successor of? Lorenzo Saavedra (his only teacher)? Does Lorenzo Saavedra know this? and who was Saavedra the successor of?

Of course the impetus here is obvious... "I am the "successor" of Presas and Buot (who was the only successor of Bacon), this is the reason I can charge 125 bucks a seminar. Why? Because I am the SUCCESSOR!!!"

as far as the seminar is concerned, it was far too coincidental. One person starts a thread about GM Atillo, another starts with the "he is wrong, my master is the successor BS", and after awhile, "hey folks, i'm having this guy over for only 125 bucks!!!".

If Ted Buot was the only "SUCCESSOR" of Bacon, and everyone followed this formal "decree", no one would've known about Balintawak in Cebu, the Philippines, New Zealand, Australia, Germany, and all other countries Balintawak is now known. What does this make other Balintawak fighters who never trained with Buot? Are they fakes? Sub-standard maybe? If so, all you need to do is contact Bobby Taboada, Nick Elizar, Bobby Tabimina, and all others who didn't train under Ted Buot.

I know I'm not Filipino, but I atleast try to learn the very culture whose art I'm practicing. But, then again it's not the Money for me, I just love the Art. (But then again, maybe I should get my teacher to write me a certificate or contract saying he'll make me HIS "successor"... It might prove profitable in the future)

While you guys wallow in this commercialized version of Balintawak, please remember that the guy who began this all, died a very poor and uneventful death. He never got a penny (or centavo) from this. Remember this while you're making money as a "Balintawak Successor".

I'm out...


Joe, I apologize if you took my words that way.


I respect GM Remy Presas as he did his own thing.

I respect GM Anciong Bacon for doing his own thing.

I respect the students of GM Anciong Bacon who taught or are teaching. They did there own things. I have not disrespect or issues with this. I do have issues with people who make a statement and then cannot back it up with facts or evidence. Bobby Tabamina who etaches Balintawak, I have never meet and he was one if not the last full time student of GM Anciong Bacon. I respect his acts of trying to promote the art. Yet all of these people have one thing in common, they all agree that GM Anciong as different from the Doces Pares in techniques, and he started Balintawak. Bacon's students who have moved on added or modified, all changed or modified the name even as simple as putting their own name in front. I respect this much more, as they are stating here it is and this is what I am doing. No hiding, no issues, no hidden agendas. Atillo has made claims that I do not think are true. I said Think. He, Atillo, also claims a different version of history then everyone else. This raises the flags of people who wonder why. Atillo also states it is Balintawak he teaches yet it came from someone else other than Bacon. I would respect and understand more if Atillo had marketed it as Atillo Balintawak and moved on with just his skill and talents. It is when he throws mudd with his comments that I begin to question why? I see only lose. Obviously he trained with Gm Anciong there pictures. Obvious he trained with his father. No one is having a problem with this.

What people are having a problem swallowing is the ner version of history with no other versions to back it up. The use of the term being only he has the real Balintawak because it came from the teaches of GM Bacon. This is what is causing everyone problems.

In my opinion, which means very little, I think GM Atillo should just market his own thing. Then you will not have these issues or questions of character come up nad some people think it necessary to establish who is right by defining all the others as being wrong.

With respect to all those who practice, teach, and live the FMA's
:asian:

Lets do this by the numbers...
#1
O.K., now that your armed with that info, think logically. WHY would someone of Tim's status and experience need to coherse with "Red Blade" to create controvery in order to promote an event? He wouldn't. If he wanted to promote an event, he'd just post the information, as he has ALWAYS done in the past. To think otherwise, especially without proof, is illogical given these facts. Furthermore, to suggest it without any evidence is slanderousand disrespectful at best. Frankly, I am disappointed in you, Bart, for this implication, and disappointed in anyone who'd believe such hogwash without any evidence to prove it.

PAUL

Well what can I say, sometimes I just disappoint people. All right, here's the evidence. I didn't want to bring this up because it's not an outright condemnation, it's just fishy. But since I'm being accused of being slanderous, I'll mention it. The post below came in asking Red Blade about what FMA/JKD background s/he had as whoever Red Blade is was not very forthcoming on their bio.

Red Blade,

Your bio just says FMA/JKD, I was curious who your intel sources might be and where you are training in Bk? Which JKD affiliation are you with?

I started with Bobby Taboada a while ago, but had to stop for education and deployment reasons. I know that the majority here are Ted Buot students, but wasn't sure for you since JKD is geographically more common on the west coast and in NYC.

I did post this before, but I think it got lost in the rapid hits that were going on at the same time.

Just a little bit later this post comes in through the email from MT saying there's a new post:



Hello bart,

Renegade has just replied to a thread you have subscribed to entitled - Questions about Balintawak - in the Filipino Martial Arts - General forum of MartialTalk.Com.

This thread is located at:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13634&goto=newpost

Here is the message that has just been posted:
***************
No Balintawak training. Thought I would give it a try. As far as my intel goes, I remember an article that may have been an interview. I was wondering if anyone else may have seen it.
***************


There may be other replies also, but you will not receive any more notifications until you visit the forum again.

Yours,
MartialTalk.Com team

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Fishy? Yes...very. It appears that Renegade is answering Red Blade's post. I've viewed Tim's site and it says under influences "Grand Master Ted Buot - Balintawak". I've assumed before that it meant he trained with him. The email above says differently. You can draw your own conclusions, but after reading that it made the whole thread seem off. But magically when I went to see that post on MT it had been edited.

What are the goals there? I can't be sure, but marketing is among the more honorable ones so that's the one I chose to talk about before. An additional one could be the artificial creation of a dialogue which has only one end: reiteration of GM Buot as the only "successor" to Anciong's Original Balintawak. And who would be the one to say that?


Question 3
Did GM Bacon name a successor?
Answer: No straight answer.


Yes, GM Ted Buot. This was done prior to Manong Ted moving to the US. This makes sense seeing that he was the ONLY person that was allowed to teach while GM Bacon wasn't present at the club.
:asian:

By the way, we all know GM Buot is the only authorized successor. Not that it's really that important to him, but I have great respect for the man and would consider myself lucky to train with him even if just for an afternoon. I subscribed to Martial Talk magazine just to read that interview. All I originally wanted to do in this thread was add in my two cents about how there is SOME truth in the Saavedra-Atillo link. I'm not a GM or a Master, but I feel that I have something to offer polite discussion which is why I prefer this BB over others. I just felt duped into participating in some type of minor dishonesty that I didn't want to be involved in. So I spoke up about it in what I thought was a very nondescript way.


#2 "Renegade, I just hope that when you bring Atillo to your school that you give him the respect that the old man deserves."

As Arnisidor has said, proper respect has always been given. Why would you think otherwise is this case? To think otherwise would be illogical, given that there is no history of Datu Tim NOT giving respect to someone he hosts at his school.


By the way, I don't know Tim from Adam, but by saying what I did, I in no way meant to infer that Tim would himself disrespect Atillo or that he had a history of being disrespectful. But after a few pages of Atillo bashing in this thread, to announce his seminar with this quote...

Here is your chance! Gm Atillo has been calling for a couple months to have him teach a two day training camp at my school...


...does make it seem like the environment might be a little open to trashing Atillo to his face. As a matter of fact it seems illogical to think that it wouldn't be. I wanted to say that Tim should make sure that Atillo gets the respect he deserves as far as his station in life goes i.e. him being our elder in the FMA and in age, specifically in guaranteeing that the seminar won't be a several hour bash session or a bombardment with a series of leading questions that will cause nothing but strife and controversy.


#3 In regards to the senior issue...Atillo is my senior. Because my teacher, Manong Ted Buot, is alive and well, I agree that it is not in my place to "put him (atillo) in his place," and I have said this myself previously in this thread. However, if it is proven that someone is lying, the "senior card" has lost all validity, in my opinion, and we can say/do as we please. However, since my teacher is still alive, and since I don't have all the facts from his side of the story, I won't be taking it upon myself to put anyone "in their place" at this time. As far as I am concerned, until the dynamics change, Atillo will recieve respect as he deserves from me. My teacher is still alive to sort out any problems regarding this matter, so it is not nessicary for me to confront him or his students.

I think that all of Manong Ted's students feel this way as well.


That opinion about lying and the "senior card" is mine as well when it comes to Americans and American culture. But when it comes to Filipino culture it's very different. It still holds for my peers and juniors, but Atillo is an old man. Being old has some perks in Filipino culture, one being you can say what you want, be it bola bola or God's honest truth, and your juniors still have to give you respect, i.e. not directly calling you on it to your face or in public. It would take an act of God or war to cancel that "senior card". What I said is that blasting Atillo to his face will close some doors for us over there in the PI, all of us, regardless of whether you agree with the culture or not. Respecting Atillo has very little to do with your teacher at all. Disrespecting him in an "in your face" style will make all us Americans look bad to some of the old timers in the Philippines. That is the danger and that is what I'm talking about. Even if you do get all your facts straight about both sides of the story, in the Filipino paradigm, it doesn't give you the right to put your elders "in their place."


I think it's somewhat funny here, but I think that maybe out of all of the people that are talking about this in this thread, I might be the only one that has met and worked out with Atillo. He talked about Bacon and he talked about his father. He talked about Doring Saavedra and his influence on Bacon, and his father, and himself. He talked about a lot of people, but mainly he worked on Eskrima. Regardless of who puts it on and how it was marketed, I still recommend going to a seminar with him. He's got good stuff to offer and it would be worthwhile to go and see.

Admin Note:
Thread locked pending administrative investigation.

Just a note.

The Admin team is investigating the concerns.
Due to my affiliation with Tim Hartman, I am abstaining from the deliberations.

I have unlocked this thread so that the discussion of Balintawak can continue. I ask that everyone please focus on the art information, not the tangental issue we are investigating.

Thank you.

I think I understand this whole "successorship" BS now. It's a Modern Arnis fetish. "you are my successor!!!". "you are my heir". "you are my next in line".

You missed my point. You say that successorship is not in FMA, yet I'm able to site one example. And no, I'm not GM Buot's next in line.

I think the problem may be in interpretation of Balintawak Original vs. Balintawak-Modified programs.

I think the problem may be in interpretation of Balintawak Original vs. Balintawak-Modified programs. When someone said Balintawak I think of the original system, not a hybrid program. This is not to say that the other programs are bad or wrong. What I'm saying may not be an accurate portrayal of the system. I teach Balintawak to my Black Belts and I tell them this is a Hybrid program because of the Modern Arnis influences. I wouldn’t want people to thing my execution was the way the original art is suppose to look like.

GM Taboada calls his program Balintawak Arnis Cuentada because there are other influences. He is very good and I like what he does, but he is the first to say that his art has many outside influences.

:asian:

Attn Mr Eccelston:
You have now pulled me into this little pissing match... I had said previously that I would not get involved with any further discussions regarding Balintawak on the internet, but when you make a statement like:
"While you guys wallow in this commercialized version of Balintawak, please remember that the guy who began this all, died a very poor and uneventful death. He never got a penny (or centavo) from this. Remember this while you're making money as a "Balintawak Successor"

I take that crap very seriously...I sincerely hope you are not refering to Manong Ted Buot with this statement?!

I would have you know that while teaching WITH Noy Anciong (as in when he wasnt present - not while he was in jail) Nong Ted did not take payment at all, but on the other hand guys like Villasin, Velez, Maranga, Mongcal & Chiuten all made $$ on Balintawak while Venancio Ba'con was alive & teaching in Cebu, but for some reason Noy Anciong didnt see any of this cash.

The following comes in no particular order, I am not going to quote everything you wrote...just my rebuttals:

Mr. Hartman is by no means the successor to Nong Ted, nor is he even a "senior" student, And he has never said he was, so get off that crap right now. (By the way, I have absolutley nothing to do with Modern Arnis, or any other FMA, I only train in Balintawak).

Bobby Tabmina was trained first by Velez & Villasin, then mostly by Arturo Sanchez (while Anciong was present), that info has been corroberated by several different people, here & in Cebu.

Bobby Taboada was trained mostly by Pilo Velez & Joe Villasin - actually very little time with Anciong, he has said as much.

This is not to say that both Bobby's are not phenomenal Escrimadors - I have not met either man, but I am quite sure they are GM's in their own right.

And, Noy Anciong was disappointed with the way GM's Villasin & Velez were teaching his system over at their club. He said as much to Nong Ted (and others), complaining that they had even changed his fundementals.



And this will be the absolute final thing I will ever write regarding Mr. Crispulo Atillo:(this part is more addressing what Bart wrote) As far as respect goes, what about his responsability to give his Elders (specifically Anciong) their due respect? He speaks ill of the dead (and living), & disrespected Noy Anciong in print. Then, when caught out, has his version changed by another student on-line.


The End

Rob

Mr. Hartman is by no means the successor to Nong Ted, nor is he even a "senior" student, And he has never said he was, so get off that crap right now.

Thanks Rob. :asian:

I think the problem may be in interpretation of Balintawak Original vs. Balintawak-Modified programs. When someone said Balintawak I think of the original system, not a hybrid program.

:asian:

Here is a clarification point which I don't think has been made. Manong Ted Buot had no other FMA training prior to training in balintawak escrima, only boxing. To my knowledge, I don't think he has had any other FMA training since being with Anscion Bacon, hence "original balintawak." Many of the others have had other training besides balintawak or have added things not taught by Bacon.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

"While you guys wallow in this commercialized version of Balintawak, please remember that the guy who began this all, died a very poor and uneventful death. He never got a penny (or centavo) from this. Remember this while you're making money as a "Balintawak Successor"

The above said was for DATU Tim Hartman, not Ted Buot. I said this because I was pissed off that I was duped into a very unassuming little thread about Balintawak, only to find out that it was an elaborate advertising ploy for his “Atillo Seminar”. There are atleast 5 others who felt this way who subscribe to this forum, although I am the most vocal and irrate.

Since the beginning, I have always appreciated the information I have received from this forum. Because of this, I’ve tried to reciprocate by sharing information I’ve learned. My interest is in history and culture, not politics. I care not whether one is a Datu or a Successor of a system, or whether he trains with a Successor of a system. I’ve said my piece about “Successorship” in FMA, obviously DATU Tim Hartman feels there was and always has been “successorship” in FMA (or maybe even colored belts and titles?).

I, personally, prefer the cultural and historical version I have been told… That FMA, prior to it’s commercialization, was just about fighting efficiency, not lineage. Lineage leads to the deep BS we are now swimming around in. Lineage leads to more than 100 people getting the “you’re my successor” speech in public, only to bicker when the top dog dies. Lineage is a big waste of time. Lineage is politics. Lineage is business. Lineage is money. Lineage takes away from fighting efficiency. Fighting efficiency only asks one simple question: Can you fight? It doesn’t ask what your title is, or who you train with, or how many seminars you can promote. This is what Balintawak and FMA is to me.

So, when I get duped into an advertisement “discussion”, I get pissed off and make my opinion heard. I have found my little niche in Martial Arts. It is free from BS. And then one day, I learn that my little niche has been pissed on and commercialized.

"I would have you know that while teaching WITH Noy Anciong (as in when he wasnt present - not while he was in jail) Nong Ted did not take payment at all, but on the other hand guys like Villasin, Velez, Maranga, Mongcal & Chiuten all made $$ on Balintawak while Venancio Bacon was alive & teaching in Cebu, but for some reason Noy Anciong didnt see any of this cash."

And this is exactly what I mean by pissed on. You’ve successfully crapped on Atillo’s name in public several months ago. Now, you’re doing it again, by insinuating that they (Villasin, Velez, Maranga, Mongcal & Chiuten) are mere ingrates, to be disrespected. The discussion, up to this point, was only about an advertising scam, successorship, a seminar and about Atillo. There was no hint of even disrespecting these elders, or even mentioning them. But, you chose to do so. It was your choice to make.

Allow me to inform you about their side, as best I can (although you have already crucified them on the net, as you did to Atillo). Villasin was said to be one of the best fighters. He was an attorney, but had close to 15 kids, so he wasn’t rich by any means. Maranga lived in a squatter area in Cebu, his son Drigo is still there. Mongcal worked as a security guard, also of very meager means. Chiuten runs a little bakery in a small town in Bantayan Island, Cebu. Teofilo Velez was a salesman of various office equipment. Since I know more about Velez, and less about the others, I’ll tell you more about him. He died in the late 80s. He also lived in a squatter (slum) area of Cebu. He began with Doce Pares, until he was bested by a Balintawak fighter, at which time he devoted all his energy into training in Balintawak. He didn’t “make money on Balintawak”, because he was more passionate about imparting his knowledge to others. If Villasin was known for his fighting prowess, Velez was known for his passion in teaching Balintawak. If he did charge for his tuition, he would only do so for a few sessions, when he sees that the student is as passionate, then he considers all fees paid through their sweat (and sometimes blood). Velez never made money, because of this habit. But, then again, I guess money wasn’t that important to him, it was the art. So, he died a poor man. His sons live in a slum area. Nick Elizar, one of Teofilo Velez’s top students, also lives in a squatter area in Cebu, called Barangay Luz. So, as you can see no one really made money off Balintawak. Because in a third world nation such as the Philippines, no one would ever dream of paying for a martial arts instruction that would cost more than the next meal. So, Balintawak stayed as it is, a Club.

This is also true in the present. I began my training not so long ago, at 15 dollars per session, but as soon as my teacher noticed I was really passionate about this art (which was about 5 sessions later), he gave me a free ride. This is in keeping with Filipino, or Cebuano, culture I was told, since it would be wrong for him to charge me having equal passion as he did when he started out with Teofilo Velez. So, Balintawak had never been about the Money. It had never been about Seminars for 125 dollars. It had, and still is, always been about the passion for this Art. So, for you to sit there and piss on the Elders of Balintawak is sad to say the least. You did this to Atillo and now to the rest of the Balintawak clan, but again this was your choice. As Americans we tend to be very disrespectful, we tend to see things from our own cultural paradigm, hence you have successors, and lineage, and all this disrespect among people who have died. This was theirs to sort out, not ours. And especially, not ours to talk about in the internet!!!!!!!

As Americans we tend to be very disrespectful, we tend to see things from our own cultural paradigm, hence you have successors, and lineage, and all this disrespect among people who have died. This was theirs to sort out, not ours. And especially, not ours to talk about in the internet!!!!!!!

:shrug:

Does anyone know the sound of one hand clapping?

Nice net-speech, Joe. Too bad it's filled mostly with your viewpoint, and void of some major facts.

I PMed you my phone numbers, so we can communicate in a verbal manner, and so you can get the facts as I see them. Tim also posted his cell # here.

How about you call either him or I so you can get the full story? The fact that you haven't yet makes me think that your a net troll who is trying to cause trouble, just as much as "red blade" or anyone else with no info in their profile, and no voice to match the face.

So, is it troll and trouble maker, or is it genuine student of the arts?

I'll be waiting for your phone call.

PAUL
248-722-1634

Joe,

First of all for the info on the other balintawak master's history.

Second, I don't know if the importance of successorship is an American phenomenon or not. I do know that, having grown up in karate, we karate people got it hammered into us the importance of having and continuing a lineage, thereby make successorship very important. I, then, found this to be an interesting passage from Mark Wiley's book, Arnis - Reflections on the History and Development of the Filipino Martial Arts page 131 -

Kung Fu students avidly seek genealogical charts of their styles because that is how they establish legitimacy. Conversely, the classical arnisador pays only scant attention to such charts. for the classical arnis master stands on his own abilities. He is not a master because he has received a certificate from a school, or because he has been appointed successor by a grandmaster. He is sui generis. (def sui generis - Latin, [literally of his (her) own kind], altogether unique).

I tuned in to this thread initially because I am also training with Ted Buot and being probably his newest student, there was some history to be found here by others who knew more. Although it has gotten heated, it has turned up some interesting history.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

What is the "motive" behind all this successorship controversy?

Money?: Is there that much $$ to be had that this stuff is so "hot"?

Power?: Is there some sort of ego/self-esteem satisfaction to being top dog?

"The Art": Do people really care that the art stays "pure"

Mud Slinging: People just like to bad mouth people they dont like, and defend people they do?

Its probably not as easy as that...I know theres probably combinations of the above in any situation. Where does this @#$% stem from? Ive heard "The Fillipinos did this..." and "Japanese Systems did that..." but come on! A large chunk of us here are Americans. Just because I study a Fillipino Art dosent mean I live by any type of Fillipino ethos. Are peoples lives so hum-drum that they are looking for a little "soap opera" to keep things interesting?

Does anyone know the sound of one hand clapping?

Nice net-speech, Joe. Too bad it's filled mostly with your viewpoint, and void of some major facts.

I PMed you my phone numbers, so we can communicate in a verbal manner, and so you can get the facts as I see them. Tim also posted his cell # here.

How about you call either him or I so you can get the full story? The fact that you haven't yet makes me think that your a net troll who is trying to cause trouble, just as much as "red blade" or anyone else with no info in their profile, and no voice to match the face.

So, is it troll and trouble maker, or is it genuine student of the arts?

I'll be waiting for your phone call.

PAUL
248-722-1634

My reasons for ignoring your phone call invitations are exactly for the reasons above. It would be a great waste of my time. Take what you can from what I wrote, but expect no phone calls from me.

Joe,

First of all for the info on the other balintawak master's history.

Second, I don't know if the importance of successorship is an American phenomenon or not. I do know that, having grown up in karate, we karate people got it hammered into us the importance of having and continuing a lineage, thereby make successorship very important. I, then, found this to be an interesting passage from Mark Wiley's book, Arnis - Reflections on the History and Development of the Filipino Martial Arts page 131 -

Kung Fu students avidly seek genealogical charts of their styles because that is how they establish legitimacy. Conversely, the classical arnisador pays only scant attention to such charts. for the classical arnis master stands on his own abilities. He is not a master because he has received a certificate from a school, or because he has been appointed successor by a grandmaster. He is sui generis. (def sui generis - Latin, [literally of his (her) own kind], altogether unique).

I tuned in to this thread initially because I am also training with Ted Buot and being probably his newest student, there was some history to be found here by others who knew more. Although it has gotten heated, it has turned up some interesting history.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

I agree, Dan... what was once interesting and informative has become politicized. That was a great quote by the way, and echoes the very point I'm trying to convey here. I too grew up in Karate, and I too experienced this whole "lineage" crap. This is why FMA is like a breath of fresh air for me, a completely different cultural perspective.

I agree, Dan... what was once interesting and informative has become politicized. That was a great quote by the way, and echoes the very point I'm trying to convey here. I too grew up in Karate, and I too experienced this whole "lineage" crap. This is why FMA is like a breath of fresh air for me, a completely different cultural perspective.


Joe et al,

I agree that lineage is quite new.

I agree that talent and skill and knowledge and courage should be what is rated.

Yet, I find it contemptable when people make up stories. No matter who