Yippiee! More "no touch" knockouts! Yay!

[hardheadjarhead]

Folks had posted the Steve Stewart "no touch" KO's...below are a few other sites containing them.

http://www.geocities.com/uk_dbbai/

(I can tell if the above is done tongue in cheek or not...the site seems a little odd)

More here:

http://www.kyushojitsutuite.com/knockouts.html

http://www.kyusho-uechi-ryu.co.uk/knockout.htm

These are done in all seriousness.

Well...I have $300 bucks in my wallet right now that says that nobody can put me down with a "no touch." Not a whole lot...but given it seems to take ten seconds to do this stunt, that works out to an hourly wage of of $108,000 an hour. Did I compute that right? In any case, not a bad chunk of change for ten seconds work.

The conditions are these:

Nobody touches me. Neither the guy doing the knockout or his assistants...at any time.

Nobody "catches" me. If you insist on this, then people of my choosing will catch me. If they require instruction on how to catch someone by you, you may do this but with someone other than me.

Nobody attempts to "revive" me (I submit it won't be needed). I am not to be touched at any time. I will assume all liability for injuries sustained IN WRITING...provided you don't touch me. If you get frustrated and hit me with contact, you'll face any legal and civil consequences.

Any takers? Once this $300 grows to $700 (I'm saving earnestly), its going towards a digital camera and the deal will be off...unless you want to do the knockout for nothing.

Takers?

Regards,


Steve

[Black Bear]

Too bad you don't live in London, ON. And unfortunately I don't think lifewise or Kenpogirl would like him to "not touch" them.

[Yossarian75]

This no touch Knockout stuff really bothers me, I thought only jedis could do this!!

Saying that, Ive been to a couple of DBBAI seminars, some of the stuff I was shown was gold(I can hit a lot harder now). They are into all the Ki stuff which I find really hard to swallow(Physics graduate). But what Ive seen some of it seems to work! I dont know, how but it does. I have had the no touch knock out demonstrated on me, I did not fall over but i did feel a slight pulling from behind, could have been my imagination. I did see people losing their balance and stagger but not everyone.

Rich Mooney is doing a seminar in my area later in the year which I will be attending, I really want him to try and knock me out(no touch) I will be resisting with all my scepticism(sp?).

My advice go and see one of these guys and try it for yourself its bloody wierd. I know all the Ki stuff sounds far fetched but im thinking that there is something in it whether it is actually ki or stage magic or whatever.

[Makalakumu]

You know that with the nanotechnology THEY are putting into our bodies everytime we get vaccinated, someone just might step up to the plate on your offer. Of course the secret would be blown then...

[hardheadjarhead]

<snip> I have had the no touch knock out demonstrated on me, I did not fall over but i did feel a slight pulling from behind, could have been my imagination. I did see people losing their balance and stagger but not everyone.

Rich Mooney is doing a seminar in my area later in the year which I will be attending, I really want him to try and knock me out(no touch) I will be resisting with all my scepticism(sp?).

My advice go and see one of these guys and try it for yourself its bloody wierd. I know all the Ki stuff sounds far fetched but im thinking that there is something in it whether it is actually ki or stage magic or whatever.

Something in it? How about the power of suggestion...or fraud?

I'm not about to PAY to witness such a thing in a seminar format. The offer stands should anyone of them want to come down and try and collect the money I've offered.

This stuff is all so easily testable. I doubt any of the NTKO folks would want to submit their skills to rigorous scientific analysis. I'm not sure how I'd make the test "double blind", or what I'd submit for controls...but this would be easier to test, I think, than most other parapsychological phenomena.

A simple, though not rigorous, method for doing this would be to simply gather people off the street and have them stand in front of the person doing the NTKO. Let the "hitter" then do his hand waving bit and see what effect it has on the subject (other than strange looks from the subject in response to this odd behavior). Rationalizations for failure to follow.

One could blindfold the subject as well, so as to insure they don't get any visual cues from the NTKO artist. This would prevent a recoil or flinch response from having hands close to one's face...which could be interpreted as "staggering" or a loss of balance due to ki interference, etc.


Too bad you don't live in London, ON.

I'll be happy to drive up there if Stewart wants to do a NTKO on me. He has to meet the above criteria, though...and one other requirement. I get to video the event and post it to MY web site. Maybe we could get a local news station involved?


Regards,


Steve

[Black Bear]

Oh, it's pretty simple. 1) "Blinding", and 2) "double-blinding" can be done simply by 1) literally blindfolding you, and 2) having the rater not be able to tell when Stu is "really" doing it to you.

Here's a rough sketch of an experimental protocol. Say, you're facing them both, ten feet away or however far it's supposed to be to be most effective. They're close together but separated by a partition. On side A is Stu. On side B is a live rater and a guy with a video camera. Above and behind you is an unmanned video camera, which sees all: you, side A, and side B.

Probably another experimenter should be next to Stu (on side A) operating the randomizer and recording which trials are real NTKO techniques and which are placebo controls. At the beginning of each trial, Stu holds up a card indicating to the camera which he is about to do: placebo, or real KO, in accordance with the randomization.

Ratings can be categorical or continuous. If categorical, a chi-square statistical test will suffice. If continuous, the ratings can be tested with a one-tailed t-test in order to determine if there was there was an increase in passing-out behaviour on your part in the experimental condition. :lol:

Seriously, all this should not be necessary given that KO'ing is supposedly such a robust effect. And we're trying to eliminate the risk of a FALSE NEGATIVE, not so much a FALSE POSITIVE. The kinds of confounds we're concerned about aren't likely to result in a false negative. The blindfold will be enough to make it plain to the casual observer that nothing is happening. But if you want a good protocol that can be scientifically scrutinized, that's it.

[Yossarian75]

[QUOTE]Something in it? How about the power of suggestion...or fraud
I'm not about to PAY to witness such a thing in a seminar format. The offer stands should anyone of them want to come down and try and collect the money I've offered.

I guess youll never find out. I find it highly unlikeky one of these guys will take you up on your offer since id say around 99% of MAists are sceptics about NTKO's plus i imagine they could make a lot more at a seminar. It only cost me £10 thats around $7.

I remember reading an article a while back when James Randy tested Rich Mooney. He had to knock someone down through a wall, he never managed it and grumbled about the testing conditions.

none of the Ki stuff stands up to scientific analysis the closest thing I have seen is Kilrian(aura) photography which in itself is considered dodgy. But does that mean its rubbish?

[Makalakumu]

If categorical, a chi-square statistical test will suffice.

Yeah, words like chi-square test just might convince those guys to try it. Are there other tests that have such ironic homonymbus?

[Black Bear]

Kirlian photography is not what so many people seem to think it is. Certainly not force fields/auras/life energy.

Dang, I had some research I did up on Kirlian photography, but apparently I no longer have the file. I don't remember a thing. I guess maybe you could start here: http://skepdic.com/kirlian.html

It was about a year ago. I got the business card of a guy who did EMDR and "power therapies" (TFT, EFT, etc.). It didn't say exactly what he was into, so I contacted him to chat (I want to know what the other professionals are into, in my town. That's when I found out he was doing this garbage. He had the audacity to claim Kirlian photographs to be evidence of auras/thought fields.

£10, isn't that more like 22USD or so?

No, to seriously make this work, you have to put up large sums of money, in a very public way, to embarrass them into doing it. Randi can do it, very few of the rest of us are willing to make a serious endeavour of it.

[hardheadjarhead]

[QUOTE]
I remember reading an article a while back when James Randy tested Rich Mooney. He had to knock someone down through a wall, he never managed it and grumbled about the testing conditions.

none of the Ki stuff stands up to scientific analysis the closest thing I have seen is Kilrian(aura) photography which in itself is considered dodgy. But does that mean its rubbish?

I admire Randi. I've read most, if not all, of his books. If you ever find a link to the article mentionining this incident, I'd love to see it. Randi offers...what is it?... million bucks for anybody that can give evidence of supernatural phenomena?

Everyone fails. They ALWAYS grumble about the test conditions, which are reasonable.

As to the Kirlian photography, its been adequately debunked. I think so, anyway. Here's the link:

http://skepdic.com/kirlian.html


Good protocol for testing, Black Bear. To get my $300, they need but knock me down without touching me. Maybe I'll run your protocol for the fun of it and video tape it. They probably won't like that.


Regards,


Steve

[Black Bear]

Here, this was the response that I wrote back to that fruitcake. It was about a year and a half ago, but I archived it in my email. Notice that I was a lot more diplomatic at the time. Now I'm just sick sick sick of phonies, whether in personal safety, therapy, education, etc. "The wonderful thing about bluntness is that it gauges the strong and intimidates the weak." - Tony Blauer.

"With respect to kirlian photography, I had been interested in this as a child when I saw kirlian photographs in National Geographic magazines. The notion that these captured "life force fields" was in full swing at the time (early 80's). It's been awhile since I've done any scholarly reading on this topic, but it's pretty much understood now what it does and does not capture. Not life force at all. Actually, what is recorded is due to quite natural phenomena such as pressure, electrical grounding, humidity and temperature. Changes in moisture (which may reflect changes in emotions), barometric pressure, and voltage, among other things, will produce different 'auras'.

"'Living things...are moist. When the electricity enters the living object, it produces an area of gas ionization around the photographed object, assuming moisture is present on the object. This moisture is transferred from the subject to the emulsion surface of the photographic film and causes an alternation of the electric charge pattern on the film. If a photograph is taken in a vacuum, where no ionized gas is present, no Kirlian image appears. If the Kirlian image were due to some paranormal fundamental living energy field, it should not disappear in a simple vacuum.' (Hines)

"It is unfortunate that even now, clever frauds continue to perpetuate myths with respect to Kirlian phenomena among an unsuspecting and gullible public. I would urge extreme caution in including this in your own practice. The use of kirlian photography for health diagnosis is in the same category as, frankly, "Weekly World News" stuff (my favourite supermarket news source).

http://www.csicop.org/si/2000-05/i-files.html
http://www.users.voicenet.com/~eric/skeptic/field.htm
http://www.netasia.net/users/truehealth/Kirlian%20Photography.htm

"But this whole sordid Kirlian affair is instructive of how pseudoscience holds itself together and promotes itself. Promoters of certain controversial therapies will see something, read something, perhaps a blurb about quantum theory or Pert's research on neuropeptides, something that says "whoa, conventional thought was all backward on this" and see a possible conceptual link with the theoretical basis of their own therapy. They jump up and say, "why, this proves what we (power therapists, ayurvedics, reiki practitioners, etc.) have been saying all along!" without a true understanding of the actual science, and what it does and does not show. Often what they imagine to be deep isomorphisms are only a superficial resemblance. The coronal discharge pictured in Kirlian photos look like what an aura SHOULD look like. But they're NOT auras, nor thought fields."

I hope this helps. I'm interested in seeing what the rest of you know about these matters.

[Black Bear]

Glad you like the protocol. I designed a lot of behavioural research when I was in school.

[Black Bear]

upnorth, I didn't get the irony in the name until you pointed it out. That's good.

File #326: list of psychological terms that sound kinky but aren't:
Item 1) "Woodcock-Johnson Achievement Test"
Item 2) "funnel debriefing" ("You're going to remove their briefs with WHAT???")

[Black Bear]

Third-party University Research Consultant: "Well, we can treat it as a dichotomous variable or a continuous one. If dichotomous, we can use a chi-squared test--"

STU(pid): (in Homer Simpson voice) "Ooh, chi-squared, I like the sounds of that! Give me that one!"

Too bad it's pronounced "kai" (rhymes with "guy") like the Greek letter.

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

I had a guy who was a black belt under one of those one-touch KO guys come in insisting that he could knock me out with a light touch, and I should be scared....that if he didn't revive me properly, my energy system would be so FUBARED, I might die in my sleep. I had only 4 months of BJJ at that point, but I bet him I could put him to sleep 10 out of 10 times before he could knock me out once.

After the first clash ending in him sleeping (trying to tap me behind the ear while I buried my face, instead of blocking the choke), he was sure he knew the weakness of my approach, and wanted to try again. So we did. Ended the same way...him sleeping and twitching. I think a reptilian survival response fired in his brain, because he didn't want to do it a 3rd time, much less count to ten.

Now they're claiming to not even need to touch the target? I'll be glad to extend the bet to them...If it's an energetic burst, they should have no trouble effecting it's delivery, even from under mata leon.

[Josh]

ya'll. it's not a big secret. It's Pyschological stuff. They're not big knockouts. They work of your psyche. And when they invade your space, you tend to want to "fall back" or just move.

[hardheadjarhead]

ya'll. it's not a big secret. It's Pyschological stuff. They're not big knockouts. They work of your psyche. And when they invade your space, you tend to want to "fall back" or just move.


Well, Josh...that's not what they're marketing them as. Look at the video clips. People are dropping from as far twenty feet away and then people are rushing (always with great urgency, I note) to sit them up and give them a scalp and neck rub, i.e., a revival.

On the close up ones people aren't merely moving. They're collapsing.


Regards,


Steve

[someguy]

Tell you what I can do it to you. First of all though you must stand on your head though. Secondly some times I only knock people over. It also takes me abit of time to do it so what do you say.
Just incase somebody can't tell I'm not serious. I'd be intrested in having someone try on me.

[philinoy]

[QUOTE]

I remember reading an article a while back when James Randy tested Rich Mooney.
Randy never tested him. I was there. The test was a put up against moonbeam from the beginning.

[philinoy]

By the way yossarian, how was the seminar? did you go? what did he do? we all wanna know:)

[Cruentus]

I have an open challange to anyone who thinks they can move me with their "Chi" or knock me out without touching me. I have had no takers so far...

Steve, if you go to London, I'll meet up with you in Detroit...

Yet, I doubt we'll have any takers on your bet.

:supcool:

[Bob Hubbard]

Paul,
one of my cats performed a NTKO on me earlier....but I blame a change in kibble for it, rather than 'cat-chi'. :D

[bignick]

I can knock people out without touching them, easily.

I've got some nice escrima and a old Louisville slugger that would knock just about anybody out without me having to touch them at all.

As far as ki/chi goes. Some things I have seen in my training give creedence to it's existence. However, things like "no touch knockouts" bastardize, cheapen and give a bad name to a possibly legitimate form of training.

[The Prof]

Obviously I missed out on something here. Who made the original post? What a joke! I viewed the vidio clip and I have concluded that this guy should team up wiith Benny Hinn in Orlando Florida who knocks people down by the dozens and all at one time without touching them. Whoever believes that "no touch knock out" garbage please let me sell you some ocean from property in Iowa. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon12.gif

[RRouuselot]

Well I just watched most of the mpegs from this site:
http://www.geocities.com/uk_dbbai/

found on this page:

http://www.alnesstsd.co.uk/videos.htm

most of the stuff.....no make that all of it was totally useless.....the "sparring" video looks more like a "knitting circle" than 2 people doing kumite.

I really can't believe people are stupid enough to believe in "no touch KO's"

[Posiview]

Folks had posted the Steve Stewart "no touch" KO's...below are a few other sites containing them.

http://www.geocities.com/uk_dbbai/

(I can tell if the above is done tongue in cheek or not...the site seems a little odd)

More here:

http://www.kyushojitsutuite.com/knockouts.html

http://www.kyusho-uechi-ryu.co.uk/knockout.htm

These are done in all seriousness.

Well...I have $300 bucks in my wallet right now that says that nobody can put me down with a "no touch." Not a whole lot...but given it seems to take ten seconds to do this stunt, that works out to an hourly wage of of $108,000 an hour. Did I compute that right? In any case, not a bad chunk of change for ten seconds work.

The conditions are these:

Nobody touches me. Neither the guy doing the knockout or his assistants...at any time.

Nobody "catches" me. If you insist on this, then people of my choosing will catch me. If they require instruction on how to catch someone by you, you may do this but with someone other than me.

Nobody attempts to "revive" me (I submit it won't be needed). I am not to be touched at any time. I will assume all liability for injuries sustained IN WRITING...provided you don't touch me. If you get frustrated and hit me with contact, you'll face any legal and civil consequences.

Any takers? Once this $300 grows to $700 (I'm saving earnestly), its going towards a digital camera and the deal will be off...unless you want to do the knockout for nothing.

Takers?

Regards,


Steve

I'll take that challange!!

Give me 24 hours (you have to sleep sometime!!)

[Erik]

Just wondering if hitting someone with a rock counts as a "no touch" knockout...

:lol:

[BlackCatBonz]

ive seen some great NTKO about half an hour after a dozen bean burritos

shawn

[The Prof]

I had the same thought along the lines of the bean burritos. However, pasta fazool (fagioli) will do the same thing, at least in my case. I am still chuckling over that stupid farce of a video, I have sent it pretty much around the world. Oh well, those who can, do it, those who cant fake it. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon13.gif

[Simon Curran]

These videos get funnier and funnier...:rofl:

[chinto01]

Two words come to mind on this. They are: hog wash!!

[The Prof]

What a great story. Our senior dojo (Bay Ridge Dojo) in Brooklyn, NY has had a history of strange so-called martial artists visiting us over the deacades. Much like your story they all suffered. I would like to say suffered great humiliation, but we all know you cannot humiliate a clown martial artist, they do that themselves. Too bad the do not realize it. Thanks for sharing, great post!

[Yossarian75]

Forgot about this thread.

I did go to the Rich Mooney seminar, he didn't do any chi stuff though. We learned a Bagua form and were taught applications for each move. The applications were all quite sensible and seemed practical, defences against haymakers/grabs etc.

Not what I expected at all but still quite interesting.

[RRouuselot]

Forgot about this thread.

I did go to the Rich Mooney seminar, he didn't do any chi stuff though. We learned a Bagua form and were taught applications for each move. The applications were all quite sensible and seemed practical, defences against haymakers/grabs etc.

Not what I expected at all but still quite interesting.
Go to E-budo.com and do a search for Mooney. He was on there as himself....got totally "hosed" for his claims of "no touch KOs" and then pretended to be at least one more person until he got booted off.

[Colin_Linz]

He gets rather upset and starts sending you abusive emails if you don’t agree with him too. I’d have to say I don’t have much respect for him or his party tricks.

[RRouuselot]

He gets rather upset and starts sending you abusive emails if you don’t agree with him too. I’d have to say I don’t have much respect for him or his party tricks.
He gave me a barrage of junk mail chcocker block full of foul language. A real class act. :rolleyes:

[Colin_Linz]

Did you get the, If you were closer I'd come around and whip your ass type of response. It really shouldn't be a problem for him, his web site says he travels all over the world teaching that crap, or he could just mind zap me.

[RRouuselot]

Did you get the, If you were closer I'd come around and whip your ass type of response. It really shouldn't be a problem for him, his web site says he travels all over the world teaching that crap, or he could just mind zap me.
Ya, I got the email/internet challenge.

I want to know why those guys that claim to be able to do no touch KOs don't put it to good use.......I would use it during the super bowl to KO the other teams quarter back everytime.....God just think of the money I could win with that in Vegas!!!!!

[Colin_Linz]

There is a thread on ebudo telling a story of guy coming to Mizuno sensei branch. He said that he could retract his testicles and could with stand a kick to them. Mizuno sensei replied, oh can I see. So within a few minutes and some strange facial expressions he said OK and was kicked. Mizuno sensei said very interesting and then went on with the class. The next week the same guy comes back, he wants to do randori. So he and Mizuno sensei start randori, where upon he gets kicked in the groin. Well of course he goes down in pain and Mizuno sensei comes up and says, oh, I though you could retract them, and the guy says, yes, but I need time to get ready.

These sort of party tricks are great entertainment, and some of them may be real; however I have yet to see any with value within the context of a martial art.

[Colin_Linz]

Ya, I got the email/internet challenge.

I want to know why those guys that claim to be able to do no touch KOs don't put it to good use.......I would use it during the super bowl to KO the other teams quarter back everytime.....God just think of the money I could win with that in Vegas!!!!!The Bookies and the Casino’s would soon ban you. You would be better of teaching them to gullible people; there seems no shortage there.

[RRouuselot]

There is a thread on ebudo telling a story of guy coming to Mizuno sensei branch. He said that he could retract his testicles and could with stand a kick to them. Mizuno sensei replied, oh can I see. So within a few minutes and some strange facial expressions he said OK and was kicked. Mizuno sensei said very interesting and then went on with the class. The next week the same guy comes back, he wants to do randori. So he and Mizuno sensei start randori, where upon he gets kicked in the groin. Well of course he goes down in pain and Mizuno sensei comes up and says, oh, I though you could retract them, and the guy says, yes, but I need time to get ready.

These sort of party tricks are great entertainment, and some of them may be real; however I have yet to see any with value within the context of a martial art.

:rofl:

[Cryozombie]

Some chicago Dojo was claiming to be able to do this a while back, and a news reporter went in to "catch it on tape"

As I recall... after several failed attempts the guy finally whacked the female reporter upside the head and she called it over and done, and said it doesnt work.

[RRouuselot]

Some chicago Dojo was claiming to be able to do this a while back, and a news reporter went in to "catch it on tape"

As I recall... after several failed attempts the guy finally whacked the female reporter upside the head and she called it over and done, and said it doesnt work.
Yup! He is a Dillman guy and made all kinds of excuses why it worked on every single student of his but when he was taken to the local BBJ club it didn't work on a single person.
There was a thread here on MT that had a link to it.
It was funny as hell!

[ppko]

Yup! He is a Dillman guy and made all kinds of excuses why it worked on every single student of his but when he was taken to the local BBJ club it didn't work on a single person.
There was a thread here on MT that had a link to it.
It was funny as hell!He is not a Dillman guy he has not been one for quite some time.

[RRouuselot]

He is not a Dillman guy he has not been one for quite some time.

He WAS a 7th dan under Dillman.....makes no difference. No touch KOs are crap.

[The Kai]

Martial Arts=Work

Great Martial Artist=Tons of work
What happened to the Black Belt being the product of thousands of hours of Dirt, Sweat and even Blood
Todd

[RRouuselot]

Martial Arts=Work

Great Martial Artist=Tons of work
What happened to the Black Belt being the product of thousands of hours of Dirt, Sweat and even Blood
Todd
Easy....along came....
The Internet
Mass Marketing Techniques
Video Tapes
etc....etc...

Why work for something when you can just buy it cheap and quick like a cheeseburger at McDonalds

[The Kai]

Just one more step to making the Blacl Belt and the whole martial arts thing worthless. While a few individuals make a couple bucks, the quality is dropping thru the toliet. Question, what happens when your products are known as cheap, worthless or easily broken? Does your logo inspire?

Todd

[RRouuselot]

Just one more step to making the Blacl Belt and the whole martial arts thing worthless. While a few individuals make a couple bucks, the quality is dropping thru the toliet. Question, what happens when your products are known as cheap, worthless or easily broken? Does your logo inspire?

Todd
When I was a kid "Made in Japan" = crap....now look at it.....most decent electronic stuff comes from Japan....still not too fond of the cars though.
I NEED a Ford GT..http://www.fordvehicles.com/fordgt/home.asp..and that damn Santa Claus didn't bring me one....bastard!
Things can change both ways....it just takes more effort to do the right thing

[Colin_Linz]

Just one more step to making the Blacl Belt and the whole martial arts thing worthless. While a few individuals make a couple bucks, the quality is dropping thru the toliet. Question, what happens when your products are known as cheap, worthless or easily broken? Does your logo inspire?

ToddJust one of the problems with the commercialising of budo. People start doing business seminars and look for ways to grow and expand. Then slowly they start to change their art to meet perceived customer needs. They “modernise it” make it “street effective” and make it more suitable for the McDonalds philosophy that prevails our time. In doing this they destroy many of the worthwhile aspects of the study of budo and turn it into just another activity like Aerobics.

[hardheadjarhead]

God forbid something might actually be "street effective."

There is nothing wrong with growing, expanding-or doing business seminars-provided there isn't a decline in quality. Even a martial arts franchise can do this if done properly. Problem: It isn't done properly and integrity is thrown in the waste can.

I consistently see people cracking on commercial schools and casting about the "McDojo" appelation loosely and without any sense of definition. This is incorrect and unfair. "Commercial" does not by default mean "crap."

I've had the charge leveled against me by a local instructor. He started casting allegations we were teaching arts we weren't authorized to teach-yet every one of our instructors is certified in the arts we teach.

He at one time said, "If I had half a mind to, I'd open up a school and shut the Scotts down." He was told by someone in the know that if he had "half a mind" to do such a thing, he'd be operating with exactly the right equipment. Why? Because we market well? Yes. We're also good teachers and have top notch programs.

Years later this guy taught a university course on running a commercial martial arts school--to date he's never done this, having only run small clubs at community centers. He was either fired or denied contract renewal at two of those programs and we took them over. His karma ran over him.

My point? Jealousy motivated this man. My wife and I and our instructors lived the dream. He's still dreaming it.

If you can do better than those schools you malign...if you can run a commercial school and not make it a McDojo--then do so. If you're already doing that, great. If not, get cracking. I'd love nothing better than to see another good school to contest those McDojos that are out there (and I freely acknowledge they exist).

If you think that merely opening up such a school is automatically an insult to the arts--I'd suggest you haven't a clue as to what you're talking about. A number of fine students and instructors here on MT and elsewhere who have either trained in--or operate--top notch martial arts schools. They go to business seminars; they host, teach, and attend martial arts seminars; they expand their programs; they make their arts street effective; and they make a lving at it.

But if they do "no touch knockouts," I submit they're not street effective nor a McDojo. They're a cult. And they're selling you a bill of goods.

My offer still stands if anybody wants to knock me out with one of these "no touch" techniques. I'm all a-shiver with anticipation.


Regards,


Steve

[Colin_Linz]

God forbid something might actually be "street effective."

There is nothing wrong with growing, expanding-or doing business seminars-provided there isn't a decline in quality. Even a martial arts franchise can do this if done properly. Problem: It isn't done properly and integrity is thrown in the waste can.

I consistently see people cracking on commercial schools and casting about the "McDojo" appelation loosely and without any sense of definition. This is incorrect and unfair. "Commercial" does not by default mean "crap."

I've had the charge leveled against me by a local instructor. He started casting allegations we were teaching arts we weren't authorized to teach-yet every one of our instructors is certified in the arts we teach.

He at one time said, "If I had half a mind to, I'd open up a school and shut the Scotts down." He was told by someone in the know that if he had "half a mind" to do such a thing, he'd be operating with exactly the right equipment. Why? Because we market well? Yes. We're also good teachers and have top notch programs.

Years later this guy taught a university course on running a commercial martial arts school--to date he's never done this, having only run small clubs at community centers. He was either fired or denied contract renewal at two of those programs and we took them over. His karma ran over him.

My point? Jealousy motivated this man. My wife and I and our instructors lived the dream. He's still dreaming it.

If you can do better than those schools you malign...if you can run a commercial school and not make it a McDojo--then do so. If you're already doing that, great. If not, get cracking. I'd love nothing better than to see another good school to contest those McDojos that are out there (and I freely acknowledge they exist).

If you think that merely opening up such a school is automatically an insult to the arts--I'd suggest you haven't a clue as to what you're talking about. A number of fine students and instructors here on MT and elsewhere who have either trained in--or operate--top notch martial arts schools. They go to business seminars; they host, teach, and attend martial arts seminars; they expand their programs; they make their arts street effective; and they make a lving at it.

But if they do "no touch knockouts," I submit they're not street effective nor a McDojo. They're a cult. And they're selling you a bill of goods.

My offer still stands if anybody wants to knock me out with one of these "no touch" techniques. I'm all a-shiver with anticipation.


Regards,


SteveOk, I should point out that not all commercial schools are bad for their art, and that schools can be run commercially without compromising their values or techniques, but these schools teachers have a belief in the value of what they teach that is above the profit line.



These comments relate to the types of schools I see that are based mainly on a commercial venture. I have no interest in running a commercial school. One reason is that we are not allowed to make money from teaching our art, but my main reasons are those I mentioned in my earlier post. If you do then fine, I don’t have a problem with that, it’s just not my cup of tea. I’m not going to prostitute my art for the sake of meeting whatever are today’s trends and fashions. The biggest problem I see with these schools is that many of the people that start them seem to have very little experience, sure they may have spent some time in the martial arts but they drift around from art to art and never learn anything other than a few basics. They may even obtain a Black Belt in some, but all this means is that they have enough basic understanding to begin to learn the art, yet what do they do, they go off and start their own style. They then claim they wanted to make it more street effective or some other rubbish like that. If they stayed with the original traditional style for any length of time they would probably realise how much they have watered down or misunderstood the techniques.



I hate the term “street effective” as it implies that other arts are not. What does it mean, that the various martial arts were developed to be ineffective? I can’t comment on other arts because I just don’t know them that well, but Shorinji Kempo was put to the test in campaigns on the streets against the Yakuza in Tadotsu post WW2, eventually driving them out. I often wonder just what some of these “street effective styles” have to back up their claims (please note these are general comments, not directed towards your school).

[rmcrobertson]

One should very much like to see the documentation for the claim of shorinji kempo's efficacy post-WWII.

[hardheadjarhead]

They may even obtain a Black Belt in some, but all this means is that they have enough basic understanding to begin to learn the art, yet what do they do, they go off and start their own style.

Agreed, there are many out there like that. Not all are like that, however.

I hate the term “street effective” as it implies that other arts are not. What does it mean, that the various martial arts were developed to be ineffective? I can’t comment on other arts because I just don’t know them that well, but Shorinji Kempo was put to the test in campaigns on the streets against the Yakuza in Tadotsu post WW2, eventually driving them out. I often wonder just what some of these “street effective styles” have to back up their claims (please note these are general comments, not directed towards your school).

I agree that a number of schools will pander by saying "street effective." I've even seen one advertise "The world's most effective form of self defense." That said, many of those that advertise "street effective" are trying to counter those "McDojos" so many justifiably rail against.

As for any style being effective in the forties, or the fifties, or the late nineteenth century...that's interesting, but invalid. What are they doing NOW?


Regards,


Steve

[RRouuselot]

Any MA that teaches the most basic and effective concepts has the “potential” to be street effective. It all boils down to the attitude of the person that is studying it.

You can study the best art in the world but if you don’t have the heart or drive to survive you will lose

Street effective= how bad you want to survive or not become a victim.....how far you are willing to go.

[Colin_Linz]

Attitude and training methods make something effective. In what way has the needs changed from last century to now. People are still going to ambush you, hit you, kick you, use weapons or attack in gangs. These things are timeless, the only change is the environment we live in.

As for documentation of Shorinji Kempo’s claims, I have none. I accept the stories told to me by the different Sensei that were students at that time or not long after, and the written history from WSKO. Of course I don’t expect you to, you haven’t the experiences with Shorinji Kempo that I have had.

[D.Cobb]

Any MA that teaches the most basic and effective concepts has the “potential” to be street effective. It all boils down to the attitude of the person that is studying it.

You can study the best art in the world but if you don’t have the heart or drive to survive you will lose

Street effective= how bad you want to survive or not become a victim.....how far you are willing to go.

I had a group of youths stop me and ask questions about my training one night as I was leaving the dojo. One of them was a bit more of a smart a$$ than the others. He says to me, "what would you do if we were to all jump you at one time?"

My answer, "What ever it F*****g takes! How many of you are prepared to go that far?"

To my delight, none of them were!:)

--Dave

[RRouuselot]

I don’t usually write about this stuff because people always seem to take it the wrong way.......



I and a friend were walking home from work years ago and this punk dressed up as an East LA gangbanger slammed into me quite on purpose. I turned to look back and he did the same. I have to admit I don’t really look like a “tough guy” so he most likely thought I was going to be “easy”.

He got mouthy and starting swearing and doing “gang signs” at me and saying how he was going to “cut” me and gesturing to his pocket, I asked what his major malfunction was. He said he was going to kick my ass….so I asked him “Oh…are going to fight?”….he said “yeah, I am going to “f” you up”, he motioned like he was putting his hand in his pocket….at this point I said nothing and grabbed both his ears and ever so delicately slammed my forehead onto the bridge of his nose with a nice head butt……which seemed to break his nose rather quickly…..he fell and crumpled up in a little ball moaning about something, I couldn’t really understand what he was saying….so I asked “are we done fighting now?”…

[Colin_Linz]

I don’t usually write about this stuff because people always seem to take it the wrong way.......



I and a friend were walking home from work years ago and this punk dressed up as an East LA gangbanger slammed into me quite on purpose. I turned to look back and he did the same. I have to admit I don’t really look like a “tough guy” so he most likely thought I was going to be “easy”.

He got mouthy and starting swearing and doing “gang signs” at me and saying how he was going to “cut” me and gesturing to his pocket, I asked what his major malfunction was. He said he was going to kick my ass….so I asked him “Oh…are going to fight?”….he said “yeah, I am going to “f” you up”, he motioned like he was putting his hand in his pocket….at this point I said nothing and grabbed both his ears and ever so delicately slammed my forehead onto the bridge of his nose with a nice head butt……which seemed to break his nose rather quickly…..he fell and crumpled up in a little ball moaning about something, I couldn’t really understand what he was saying….so I asked “are we done fighting now?”…Come on Robert, surely you could have done a not touch knock out, or would that have spoiled the fun.:)

[RRouuselot]

Come on Robert, surely you could have done a not touch knock out, or would that have spoiled the fun.:)

Sorry, I value my life.....I leave that kind of voodoo for other people

[Shizen Shigoku]

if one was far enough away to use a no-touch KO, wouldn't they also be far enough away to escape?

IOW, why waste time charging up your super sayain powers to throw a kameyameya wave at someone when you could run away?

[D.Cobb]

I don’t usually write about this stuff because people always seem to take it the wrong way.......



I and a friend were walking home from work years ago and this punk dressed up as an East LA gangbanger slammed into me quite on purpose. I turned to look back and he did the same. I have to admit I don’t really look like a “tough guy” so he most likely thought I was going to be “easy”.

He got mouthy and starting swearing and doing “gang signs” at me and saying how he was going to “cut” me and gesturing to his pocket, I asked what his major malfunction was. He said he was going to kick my ass….so I asked him “Oh…are going to fight?”….he said “yeah, I am going to “f” you up”, he motioned like he was putting his hand in his pocket….at this point I said nothing and grabbed both his ears and ever so delicately slammed my forehead onto the bridge of his nose with a nice head butt……which seemed to break his nose rather quickly…..he fell and crumpled up in a little ball moaning about something, I couldn’t really understand what he was saying….so I asked “are we done fighting now?”…


You ARE the man!!:D
However, I want to know which pressure points you activated, to make him fall down..... :D

[Shu2jack]

The conditions are these:

Nobody touches me. Neither the guy doing the knockout or his assistants...at any time.

Nobody "catches" me. If you insist on this, then people of my choosing will catch me. If they require instruction on how to catch someone by you, you may do this but with someone other than me.

Nobody attempts to "revive" me (I submit it won't be needed). I am not to be touched at any time. I will assume all liability for injuries sustained IN WRITING...provided you don't touch me. If you get frustrated and hit me with contact, you'll face any legal and civil consequences.

I'll accept your challenge under the following conditions;

1.) Bring a mat for yourself to land on, this technique is so powerful that anyone you bring to catch you will be affected as well.

2.) No noisey, or distracting stimuli either from yourself or an outside source.

3.) Give me 3 hours max.

I won't really need 3 hours. I figure you'll nod off and pass out after about the 2nd straight hour of me talking about such facinating topics (in GREAT detail) such as how to properly dust off older books in library or go into a step-by-step account of my daily routine for waking up and getting ready for school.

If that fails, then I will bring in my Grandpa, who is a master of telling boring, sleep-inducing stories, for the 3rd hour.

Sorry, I just couldn't resist. I was thinking about no-touch knockouts and I thought about my grandpa and how many people he has been able to induce drowzyness in.