Just a general question. My teacher does not teach forms in Hapkido. I don't really have a problem with this, but other students in my class want him to teach them. I'm just trying to get a feel for how many schools are actually teaching the Hapkido forms?

When I was at a Hapkido Dojang, I heard the instructor tell someone that Hapkido (at least as he teaches it) doesn't have forms, which is one of the reasons he has a TKD class there as well...for his Hapkido students who would also like to learn some forms.

I could have heard wrong, though.

Cthulhu

I heard the instructor tell someone that Hapkido (at least as he teaches it) doesn't have forms

That's part of the problem with Hapkido I guess. There are so many different styles of Hapkido being taught around the world. You never know what other people are being taught. Thanks for responding though Cthulhu.

Originally posted by hapkido_mgd

Just a general question. My teacher does not teach forms in Hapkido. I'm just trying to get a feel for how many schools are actually teaching the Hapkido forms?

Welcome aboard! :D

We do learn forms, but they are mostly weapon forms. We do alot of Ho Shin Sul work. As far as empty hand forms, I have only had to learn one in Hapkido. I needed to learn the Chulgi/Nihanchi for my 1st dan.

Take care.

Thanks for posting Chris. I guess I need to clarify that it was the empty-handed forms I was talking about. Out school does teach the weapons forms for Hapkido. What is the Chulgi/Nihanchi form? I've never heard of it. Where could I get some info on it? Some guys in my class would love to hear about it. Thanks again!!!

Originally posted by hapkido_mgd

Thanks for posting Chris. I guess I need to clarify that it was the empty-handed forms I was talking about. Out school does teach the weapons forms for Hapkido. What is the Chulgi/Nihanchi form? I've never heard of it. Where could I get some info on it? Some guys in my class would love to hear about it. Thanks again!!!

I think Chris may be referring to one of the Naihanchi forms, which were renamed by the Shotokan people to Tekki. There are three of them.

You can see video clips of them here:

http://ctr.usf.edu/shotokan/kata.html

Some TKD people from way back may still do them, as well as the Pinan/Heian/Pyong An(?) forms.

Cthulhu

Thanks for the link Cthulhu. That was more related to Karate though, right? I'm still trying to find some actual empty-handed forms for Hapkido itself. Or do other schools teach empty-handed forms from other styles?

Originally posted by hapkido_mgd

Thanks for the link Cthulhu. That was more related to Karate though, right? I'm still trying to find some actual empty-handed forms for Hapkido itself. Or do other schools teach empty-handed forms from other styles?

No problem. I know it's a Shotokan site, but it has clips of the Tekki forms, which are just the Naihanchi forms with a different name, which is the form that Chris from CT mentioned he had to learn for his 1st dan in Hapkido.

Remember that for some time, the Korean martial arts, particularly TKD, utilized Okinawan forms. Around the time TKD was being considered for the Olympics (and maybe even before), there was a mass effort to purge the Okinawan/Japanese forms from the Korean martial arts. Even though they are rarely practiced by today's Korean stylists, they still pop up now and then.

So, if Hapkido schools do borrow forms from other Korean systems, there is a very good chance that form could actually be Okinawan in origin.

I'll keep poking around. If I find any reference to actual Hapkido forms, I'll pop that info up here.

:D

Cthulhu

You are so correct Cthulhu!!!! I knew about the Japanese influence with Hapkido, but totally forgot it when I posted that last itme.

I guess it is possible for other schools to be using forms that are in fact based on Okinawan forms. Still haven't heard back from Chris on this though. I would really like to know his take on this.

If you do see anything else let me know Cthulhu.

Thanks again

:asian:

Okay, I found...something. This site:

www.ironcrane.com/html/hkdhytxt.html (http://www.ironcrane.com/html/hkdhytxt.html)

Has some blurb on Hapkido, and at the bottom of the site, there is a link to a page with six videos, each with two views. The videos aren't of the best quality. As far as the forms performed in the videos, well, I'll have to let you judge them on your own.

On another site, I found a reference to five Hapkido forms, but no videos or even descriptions. There were simply labeled 'Hapkido hyung' 1 through 5.

Cthulhu

OK, I'm not insane and I do not normally post the same thing twice. That last post is what happens when you accidentally refrsh the wrong window!!!

Thanks Cthulhu, that last like was very informative!!! The forms in the videos did look pretty cool too. I would have changed the music though. :D It was like stepping into a 70's B-Movie!!! But thats what the volume knob is for, right?

Thanks again :asian:

Don't worry about it...I went ahead and deleted the duplicate post.

I wish the person doing those forms did them a bit 'crisper'. Several times, he looks like he's just waving his arms around. Then again, for all I know, that's exactly how they're supposed to look.

Cthulhu

Thanks Cthulhu, I tried to delete it but it would not let me.

I was just happy to see an example of what the forms are supposed to look like period. He probably could be doing the movements a little better. But maybe he was listening to the music while doing them!!! That would explain it!! :roflmao:

Thanks again Master Moderator :asian:

No prob on the delete...that's what I'm here for :)

I should have posted a warning about that music. Ugh. In one of the videos, there's a closeup of the guy...and he's wearing a headband. Couple that with the music, and you've really got a bad '70s thing going there.

Cthulhu

He seems to have brought the worst of the 70's with him.

:lol:

You guys were cruisin!! I come back the next day and BANG, all these posts. I guess I was missing out. :D

Cthulhu was totally right. It was the Naihanchi Shodan that I had to learn. I put Chulgi/Naihanchi because that form/hyung is more commonly known by Naihanchi rather than its Korean name (Chulgi). There are good teachers that teach forms and good ones that don't. Either way is good as long as the teacher can pass on the lesson to be learned to the student.

Sorry to get back so late. :)
Take care

:p No problem Chris. Just wanted to hear your side of it. I'm happy because I was able to get some info on Hapkido forms. So I will be able to go to class tonight armed with new info.

Thanks for your posts guys!!!

:asian:

Oh, one other thing I forgot!
Dojunim Choi, Yong Sul didn't teach any forms when he started Hapkido. (depending on the time it was also called: Yawara, Hapki Yu Sool, Dae Dong Ryu Yu Sool, etc.) Any Hapkido forms were added by his students afterwards. Like I said before, "Either way is good as long as the teacher can pass on the lesson to be learned to the student."

Take care. :)

The one form I watched looked pretty cool- but I am at work and we have a really slow connection here, so the qualtity was almost unwatchable. I'll download them at home and check 'em out better. The music was like from a 70's porn flick or something- I kept waiting to see Ron Jeremy peek around the corner!

:roflmao:

My first black belt was in Hapkido, no forms were taught at all. I've seen hapkido weapon techniques, but those videos were the first time I had ever seen any hapkido empty hand forms. Very interesting.

I guess that might be one of the primary reasons why I've seen so many people teach both Hapkido and TKD together.. to provide forms. I personally don't teach forms and I've had students ask me many times to teach them forms. Its always good to see people wanting to learn more, but I just don't see enough time to include form training.

;) Hi and be blessed. I am Ramon Navarro a Hapkido SabomNim from the country of Panama. According to what hyung or forms there is really none soposetly in Hapkido. Anyhow,I found 5 and they are called Hapkido Hyung Sae or stance forms for Hapkido: 1) Heaven Form 2)Earth Form 3)Inner Power Development Form 4)external Power Development Form and 5) Hapkido Development Principles Form. These forms are soposed to be around 2000 years old and utilise many Hapkido movements ; You can find a text or book from Grand/Master Kwan SickMyung from the World Hapkido Federation. ' HAP ' :asian:

Welcome! Do you teach those forms then?

:asian:

I was given the impression that this art form was founded by Choi yong Sul. Born in Taegu, Korea in 1904, in 1911 he was given the Japanese name Yoshida and assigned as a servant to Minamoto no Masayoshi Takeda Sokaku. Choi served in this capacity for 30 years until conscripted to serve in the Japanese Army in 1941, and according to the traditions of Hapkido created this art form at this time. It incorporates many of the techniques found in Daito Ryu Aikijujitsu.

But, feel free to correct me.

As for the videos seen on the Ironcrane website, I have extremely strong reservations regarding the sword and "empty hand" presentations, and was surprised [and disappointed] since introductions appeared to indicate that the site possessed credibiltiy in its offerings.

However, before unleasing a fire storm please review my credentials on another thread within this forum. I have studied sword, naginata, yari along with Nihon Goshin Aikido, a "combat form of Aikido" that is a direct off-shoot of Daito Ryu, that did not come from any of the Uyeshiba schools whatsover, along with a number of other arts as well. And over the years have participated and sponsored many seminars with some very prominent MA practitioners.

:asian: :asian:

Hi there it's my first time on this so please bear with the mistakes..

ok, well what i wanted to say was that i've actually done those hyung!! or at least a version of them (whether i can remember them completely is another matter) the versions of these were a lot less "flowery"....no offence meant!:) the forms i did were more of a TKD nature but still very flowing. what this difference derives from i do not know.
originally i was with the European Hapkido Association (which is still in existence) and then a my instructor at the time separated from the main association and formed his own association (joining another large organisation a bit later). i continued to train with this instructor for a while until i got my 1st degree. i then went to university.......there is a point of this story so hang in there......:o i have been unable to find a hapkido school nearby and the one back home has totally stripped down the syllabus and stopped teaching hyung (patterns)!! i quote the instructor "we found that most of the techniques were not really practical. the kids just couldn't remember them all. as long as they can punch, kick and do basic wrist locks then we're happy." he then decided to show a yellow tag how to side kick a board without actually realising the poor guy had no hip rotation...he failed to correct him. to be honest i am no expert but i know what is shoddy teaching. they don't realise! i am really frustrated. taekwon-do with a few joint locks and street defence does not equal HAPKIDO. i know what taekwon-do is like because i train TKD!

now i am not trying to slander my old instructor (and i made no interuption to his instruction) i just want to learn hapkido! the old association branded our group "traitors" and most of the original members of our group only followed not because we were involved with the politics but only cos it was our local training area. i was the last of the original members to leave the club.

all i remember is that my first ever membership book bore the mark of the kuk sool won association and the guy inside was the late Master Kim (Paul Kim i think) i was 8 at the time. i'm now nearly 20.
anyone got any thoughts? please.:(

I wholeheartedly agree with your statement that Hapkido is much more than TKD with jointlocks (which is basically what is passed off as Hapkido around here)!

I have studied Chung Do Kwan, which is "the old school" of TKD, where the forms were more similar to Shotokan forms with higher kicks. I also know and work out with a great number of TKD stylists, and have for years.

If work out with, or watch a true Hapkido stylist there is no similarity in what they do to TKD! Aside from the basic mechanics of the kicks, there is no similarity! There is a HUGE difference in your approach to fighting, your execution of technique, even the utilization of kicks!

To suggest that Hapkido is TKD is joint locks and throws added to it, is to totally miss the concept of Hapkido. TKD stylists, even at the highest levels, when competing pure TKD, look like dancers (and that is NOT an insult!). Their feet and hands move in an amazing, "popping", frenzied rhythm- fast paced deceptions and strikes. With a good Hapkidoist, the whole thing is over before you even realise it has begun! The attacker attacks- the attacker is down! And the Hapkidoist is standing there like nothing even happened. THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENCE THERE!

I liken Hapkido to Aikido, or perhaps some styles of Kung Fu. There is no water element in TKD- Hapkido is ALL about the water element!

Greeting all,

In response to all the post that I just finished reading.. I remember my intructor telling me that, all martial art have roots that go back to each other. I find truth in this no stictly based on his knowledge and credibility.. but in the that fact that I see it.. I mean.. Yes I train in Hapkido.. but in it I see Aikido, TKD, Kosho Ryu, Kempo... SO they must have ties going centuries back.

RIGHT???

WOW.....

Just re-read my post.... Sombody must have laced my breakfast bar with something.... I apologize for all the simple spellling errors.... then again.. im just not a morning person.....:rolleyes:

K. This may be a bit long winded.
I study tratitional Sin Moo Hap Ki Do under Chong Kwan Jang Nim J.B. Lee, original student of Yong Sul Choi and later Ji Han Jae. He has had his 9th dan since 1983. I have studied in 3 different Hap Ki Do schools. 2 TKD based styles and now the traditional style. The techniques I have either learned anew or new and been revised are mor painfull and effective than when I studied at the other 2 schools. I have been with my teacher for a while now and am prepairing to test for Edan ( 2nd degree). The only thing that we have been taught that even comes close to a form is our # 1 kick. It is a Tai Chi based form that just shows you how techniques flow from one into another. My teacher told me that traditional Hap Ki Do has no forms. Never has. Weapons forms are on a whole nother level. Say like Kendo. Some you can not do without forms becouse that is the only way they were taught.
Now the differences in the techniques in the TKD schools and in the dojang I attent now are quite noticable. Most people do not realise that there is a difference between Traditional Hap Ki Do and TKD based HKD. As for Combat HKD, from what I am told, what they do is cut out things that they do not see as effective street techniques, and they do not break down each technique as much when initially teaching them. If you don't break them down enough to a new student then they can get confusing. What people don't realise is that traditional Hap Ki Do is a combat martial art. The techniques that may seem useless like the Judo grab techniques are actually quite increadable and usefull when you start to learn how to translate them into punch defenses and basic understanding of them . This goes with many other techniques as well. Believe me, I'm not a master by far, but between all my reaserch and the countless hours of training I put in each week (26-35) I have learned quite a bit about the style that I have come to love.
Whew.. I hope that wasn't to much. I'm just glad that I found a site where more people can relate to what I'm about.:D

Originally posted by H@pkid0ist
K. This may be a bit long winded.
I study tratitional Sin Moo Hap Ki Do under Chong Kwan Jang Nim J.B. Lee, original student of Yong Sul Choi and later Ji Han Jae.

Hey, welcome aboard. :)

What is your teacher's full name?

Take care.

Welllll. Korean version is Jung Bai Lee
And American version is ( honestly ) James Bond Lee
It was the name the Feds gave him when he came to the states.:asian:

Originally posted by H@pkid0ist
Welllll. Korean version is Jung Bai Lee

Thanks, I couldn't figure out who he was from the initials. I haven't heard of him before.

Originally posted by H@pkid0ist
And American version is ( honestly ) James Bond Lee
It was the name the Feds gave him when he came to the states.

That's kind of cool.... Grandmaster 007! :D

Take care. :)

Welcome H@pkid0ist,

Always a pleasure to read ideas from new people. This is a great forum and I am grateful for the time I am able to spend here.

Welcome,

:asian:

H@pkidoist.. nice to meet ya...

Yes i must agree its very nice to have other fellow hapkio-ists in the chat..

Have fun in here.. i know I do!! :asian:

okay here goes

kicho hyung parts 1 to 5 (although i heard that there are 10)

sa do hyung (peasants pattern)

bulkyo hyung (monks pattern)

sun bi hyung

jung gup hyung

dae gup hyung

go gup hyung

koon jung form

are but a few of the patterns taught in the hapkido class i had attended (can't remember the others!!) but if original hapkido had no forms then, WHERE DID THEY ALL COME FROM????

kuksool practitioners maybe? can you answer this?

Originally posted by WaterCircleHarmony
... if original hapkido had no forms then, WHERE DID THEY ALL COME FROM????

kuksool practitioners maybe?

If you think about it, you're kind of right. :)

All of the forms came from the students of the founder; Choi, Yong Sool. They added them afterwards into their own curriculum. Suh, In-Hyuk the founder of Kuk Sool Won, was a student of Choi, Yong Sool at one time. If you research your lineage you may be able to find out who added the ones you do.

Take care :)

Hi WaterCircleHarmony and be blessed.

I am sertain that Chris is correct in that if you check the background to these forms you will end up finding out whose form it is the developer !

Mi Teachers Teacher is DojuNim Ji, Han Jae and in our SongMooKwan Hapkido developed a few forms sort of saying but ended up making 2 long forms, each 100 movements each ! The first we call the basic form and includes all that can be used for street fighting from move one or white belt level to move 100 is to second Dan. The second we call the advanced form made up of kicking combination with the same leg and doing on both sides and includes rolling and acrobatics for escaping or shortening distance for street combat and it is from second Dan up level of techniques !

Also, there is the posibility that these teachers had background in other martial arts that used forms and made them to facilitate their students home workouts !

HAP

Ramon Navarro
Hapkido SabomNim
SongMooKwan Hapkido
Los Llanos de Curundu, Panama

Originally posted by WaterCircleHarmony

okay here goes

kicho hyung parts 1 to 5 (although i heard that there are 10)

sa do hyung (peasants pattern)

bulkyo hyung (monks pattern)

sun bi hyung

jung gup hyung

dae gup hyung

go gup hyung

koon jung form

are but a few of the patterns taught in the hapkido class i had attended (can't remember the others!!) but if original hapkido had no forms then, WHERE DID THEY ALL COME FROM????

kuksool practitioners maybe? can you answer this?

My teacher teaches pure hapkido, and yes, there are a number of forms. There are eight different forms, plus basic attacking and basic blocking. Each is extremely scripted and precise. If you want more info, e-mail me and tell me what level you are looking for and I can get you the descriptions. Basic blocking is the earliest form, followed by basic blocking. After that comes Hyung 1, 2, 3, etc. Hope this is helpful.

We have 2 basic forms and they are small. Our first one is a short Ti Chi based form. The second is the first combined with the first for basic kicks, put together to resemble almost a dance.

I practice Sin Moo Hapkido with Doju Nim Ji Han Jae and there are NO forms in Sin Moo. In the past I practiced Hapkido under the Korea Hapkido Association and the Moo Ye Kwan organization and there were NO forms with either of those orgs either, forms are definately something individual teachers have added to Hapkido, in the purest sense of the art Hapkido has NO forms,, but to each his own,,

Mike Tomlinson

My master teaches three levels of breathing exercises (beginner, intermediate, and advance) for pre-Dan students. Then he teaches forms to Black Belts.

Glad you could make it x1bueller!!!

So what do you think of the site? I think you'll really like this site for all of the different types of MA here.

:asian:

Yes it is true that there really are no forms in the purity of HapKiDo

The forms are acording to the interest of the teacher or its teachers or teachers and according to their interest.

I respect the ones that use them and mainly the ones that do not do so !

Ramon Navarro
Hapkido SabomNim
SongMooKwan Hapkido
Los Llanos de Cururndu, Panama.

Personally I see nothing wrong if a teacher chooses to add a few forms in the studies to aid in the students learning. Its just when they are there to add to the amount of time required to study or amount of tests you have to take ( paying in ) for your next belt, that it is a problem.

Originally my studies were under Master Pak Sung Han of Wae Moo Kwan...no hyung. The concentration was on the self-defense techniques.

I then transitioned to Sun Moo Kwan under Jae Sun Ji where hyung were present. Not the primary concentration by any means, but present nonetheless.

My personal opinion is that Hapkido is very much a hands-on type of art. It is diffcult in performing Hapkido hyung to truly practice the essence of the art. Then again, I have only been exposed to one kwan's hyung. This may not be the case with other kwans.

Repects,
Bill Parsons

In the association (Scandinavian Sin Moo Hapkido Association)where I train we don't have any forms, as far as I know.

Hi you all and be blessed. Besides I hope that this 2003 year is better beyond the past years in general.

Would liked to announce that Academia de Hapkido : HapKiDo Style Song Moo Kwan in the country of Panama Has mooved from Los Llanos de Curundu To Edificio Los Alamos, Local #5 in the Jose Agustin Arango Ave. At Urbanisaciñn Marcasa.

Our Fone # (507) 233 0296.

Greetings, I have listed the forms I teach below.

Ki Bon Il Hyung
Chun Ki Hyung
Gee Ki Hyung
Nae Ki Hyung
Wae Ki Hyung
Ki Hap Hyung Sae

Not sure if this helps anyone and I do not have any actual links to videos of these forms as of yet however I do plan to make some in the near future.

I trained in Hapkido in Taegu, South Korea for two years. We did not have formal Hapkido patterns but we did practice the Kyuk Toogi patterns which have been officially incorporated into Hapkido. Each level did have required 2 step 4 step sparring and standing/sitting self defense.

Since I've returned I've been training/teaching a mixture of Karate, TKD and Hapkido. However, I'd rather concentrate on Hapkido. The Karate school which I teach at is really open to "new" styles (Ha Ha) so they've given me a Friday slot in the schedule.

So....now, I want a "standarized" Hapkido prg where I can take my students to other clubs and everything will be similar. I'm getting really frustrated. There are a bunch of TKD schools which teach a few wrist locks and call it Hapkido. When I was living in Korea, my gym had each move for each level on posters on the wall.... I should have copied it out. My problem is I earned my second degree 5 years ago - so I know all kind of locks/falls/punches kicks and throws etc. however, I don't know for which level (belt) each one goes with. Would anyone happen to have the requirements for each belt written down somewhere? I can't find anything online.

I did a six belt system - but I need the official testing requirments for each level.

Cheers!

In the kwan to which I belong we use the hyung of the WHF including Chung Ki, Gi Ki, Nae Ki, Wae Ki and Kihap Hyung Sae. In addition each of the weapons levels in Black Belt have a hyung and there are extras such as the Tam Tui 12 that get taught. All good training.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Being a 5th Dan in Hap Ki Do AND TKD and TSD, I am VERY HAPPY there are NO forms! :) (I know SOME do use them, but I started Hap Ki Do almost 30 years ago, and NO one was teaching forms back then! NOT that I know of anyway!)

Greetings, I have listed the forms I teach below.

Ki Bon Il Hyung
Chun Ki Hyung
Gee Ki Hyung
Nae Ki Hyung
Wae Ki Hyung
Ki Hap Hyung Sae


These are my forms also. I'm glad my place teaches them as I've always like forms.

By way of extension, I have also begun to publish the weapons hyung on my website beginning with the HwaRang Sword Forms and hopefully including each of the respective forms for each of the swords used by the martial traditions of Korea. (See: www.midwesthapkido.com )

There are a lot of projects going on all at the same time so please pardon the "dust".

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Thanks Bruce! Actually, I took Hap Ki Do from Kwang Sik Myung on Wilshire Blvd. (just North of Korea Town on Wilshire and Vermont) back in the early 80's, but just as a 9th Gup in his Dojang. I cannot remember if he taught us forms, but for some reason, I think he may have?????



http://www.koreanhapkido.com/myung.JPG

We do one form per belt level. Here is one example.

http://www.jinpalhapkidodc.com/images/movies/Eric_test_pattern.mov

Brian

Just a few odd thoughts.

I still use the five hyung that GM Myung teaches in much the same way that the Karate people use the Heian Kata. When a person hits cho-dan they will probably be working on the 5th hyung (Ki-hap Hyung Sae). At that point I have considered offering a split in the training. For the folks that want to take the Hapki-yu-sool path I would probably require that they use either all of the previous hyung or learn Tan Tui 12 to keep their range-of-motion and technical skills in concussive techniques. For those that want to stay at the yu-sool level there is a range of weapons and specialized areas of development. Each of the weapons has their own forms and some levels such as 4th Dan (sword) and 5th Dan (staff) have multiple items to learn.

As far as whether or not folks use hyung as part of training I suppose to some extent that is a personal choice. For me I have never found that it has hurt me, and has offered a good alternative for those times when I have had to nurse an injury or isolate a troubling motion that inpairs me execution. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce