When it comes to self-defence, does rage help? I often wonder this because an absolute pure rage makes you have the kind of advantages of being drunk (not feeling the pain of hits) but without the discoordination and slow reaction times. It also I think enables you to hit far more powerfully than usual. I question whether it does slow you down slightly though because a clear relaxed mind usually makes me personally much quicker.

thoughts...

d

Weakness in every aspect.

7sm

Uncotrolled rage may give you a sudden bust of adrinalin witch will give you that trength but it will flow out quickly leaveing you feeling weaker.
Controlled rage may let you fight hader and with more determination.

IMO you almost have to use controlled rage. Outside of a training enviroment it's very hard to hit and hurt someone without having some sort of anger attached to it. You don't want to go into an uncontrolled rage or you will lose control and do something that could get you hurt, but a controlled rage is almost a must.

rage implies that one is not in control, and this is always a disadvantage.

controlled anger can give you an edge, but when you lose control, you get sloppy and usually lose the fight.

First thing that comes to mind is that it is a weakness in all aspects- controlled or uncontrolled. I think it is a weakness because your focus, in either case, would be totally on what you are raging against.......which causes you to lose awareness of anything else around you and any other dangers, etc. in your vicinity.

:asian: :karate:

Determination is far superior to rage. Rage makes for bad judgement and a tense body. A supple, relaxed body fights better than one tied up in a knot. Anger/rage will also make you over exagerrate and overcommitmit your movements, making yourself an easier target. You'll also strike at the absolute first target, rather than the best one.

Rage bad, calm good.

Let's say rage as in "indignation". As in, "I'm minding my own business, how DARE you attack me. (Now I have to smush you.)"

Just think of all the untrained people whose indignation caused them to pulverize or cripple someone who attacked them or their child.

Tony Blauer has made a career of instructing people how to use RAGE to their best advantage in self-defense, while minimizing the downsides.

I have to agree with Nightingale in that by its very definition, Rage implies loss of control. I believe rage in any sense is a disadvantage.

"Turn into a doll made of wood: it has no ego, it thinks nothing, it is not grasping or sticky. Let the body and limbs work theselves out in accordance with the discipline they have undergone.

If nothing within you stays rigid, outward things will disclose themselves. Moving, be like water. Still, be like a mirror. Respond like and echo.

The localization of the mind means its freezing. When it ceases to flow freely as it is needed, it is no more the mind in it suchness.

The perfect way is only difficult for those who pick and choose. Do not like, do not dislike; all will then be clear. Make a hairbreadth difference and heaven and earth are set apart; if you want the truth to stand clear before you, never be for or against. The struggle between "for" and "against" is the mind's worst disease.

Give up thinking as though not giving it up. Observe techniques as though not observing.

Eliminate "not clear" thinking and function from your root.
-Bruce Lee

I think that pretty much sums up my beliefs on rage. In a fight, emotion is the enemy, emotion causes you to percieve the outcome, to stress a particular technique; this will only cause you to loose if against a skilled fighter. Sure, rage may help you overtake the 6 year old kid who called you a doodiehead, but a true fighter will capitolize on your "rage" or emotion in any form.

7sm

Hmm... I think it would be useful to distinguish between "not clear" thinking and emotion. As a person seeking after the truth (in combat, in this case) we need to eliminate self-deception, bias, etc.

But emotion (including negative emotion) is part of the healthy human experience. Otherwise why don't we all get our limbic systems surgically removed? There is a place for rage... and fear... and sadness. We just have to understand and manage them.

Originally posted by Black Bear
Hmm... I think it would be useful to distinguish between "not clear" thinking and emotion. As a person seeking after the truth (in combat, in this case) we need to eliminate self-deception, bias, etc.

But emotion (including negative emotion) is part of the healthy human experience. Otherwise why don't we all get our limbic systems surgically removed? There is a place for rage... and fear... and sadness. We just have to understand and manage them.

I don't agree, in fighting there is no place for emotion. To say that they are human experiences and thus be a part of fighting is to imply that humans are made for fighting and we all know that is not the case. If we were, we wouldn't have to train so hard, man I wish that was the case!

I don't base my philosophies on Bruce Lee, but he summed it up good again in this quote: "The knowledge and skills you have achieved are meant to be forgotten so you can float comfortably in emptiness, without obstruction.

The great mistake is to anticipate the outcome of the engagement; you ought not to be thinking of whether it ends in victory or defeat. Let nature take it's course, and your tools will strike at the right moment.

JMO,
7sm

Remember the video clip on wide world of sports of the downhill skier crashing and burning while the announcer is saying "the agony of defeat"? That was Ingimar Stenmark attempting to use rage to conquer the mountain during the downhill.

Being the stuffy English Language Arts teacher I am:

"to prevail without restraint" is one possible definition of rage. Also the origin of rage is latin (rabere) and means "to be mad" (as in crazed)

Base on this, I would say that rage is a liability. As either self defense artists or martial artists, regardless of philosophy or mission, control is a constant.

Legally, ethically, morally... control of your forceful/violent behavior/emotional state in the moment will help you make sure you are justified in action and thought, more able to sift through the PST/guilt that can come after a violent encounter, and look objectively at any situation.

Paul M

I don't agree, in fighting there is no place for emotion. To say that they are human experiences and thus be a part of fighting is to imply that humans are made for fighting and we all know that is not the case. If we were, we wouldn't have to train so hard, man I wish that was the case!I do not see how that logically follows. I said that emotion is a natural part of the healthy human experience. How do you find that I imply that humans are made for fighting?

I lost control once during a sparring match against a guy who was ignorant and being a child. I was a brown belt in Kenpo at the time and he was a beginner in Kung-Fu. It was just supposed to be friendly sparring with some friends, but this guy was really being a pain. I kept conceding points to him just to keep playing, but he finally pushed me too far and I snapped. I didn't realize what I was doing, but in retrospect I wanted to humble this guy. Suddenly I was filled with an energy I've never since experienced. I was able to move much faster than ever before. I was able to predict his moves and corner my opponent with my combinations. Luckily, he realized I was out of control and put a stop to the match before anyone got hurt. From the time I snapped to the time he stopped the fight couldn't have been more than a minute or so and I didn't even touch him during that time, because I was trying to make him look like a fool. I was really ashamed. Especially when this guy who was acting like a child had to stop the fight because I was taking it to personally. I had sunk below his level. I was really bothered by this incident for a long time. I felt that I had let down my instructors and myself.

Since then I've gotten over it, and I've learned alot from that experience. I have tried to recapture that feeling but have only come close so far. I don't know if it was adrenaline, focus, or pure emotion, but I felt like Superman for just a second. I think if I could learn to harness that energy and summon it up on command it would make me a much more fomidable fighter. Even when I spar or fight, I haven't been able to repeat the sensation I felt that night. I think it is important to clearly identify your objectives in combat. Are you out to hurt the other guy, or keep yourself from getting hurt? I think offensively, rage could be an asset. However, to commit to that level of aggressiveness would leave you open to counter attack. I don't think you can reach that point when you are concerned with your own survival.

-Rob

In my system we work on being soft, and feeling your opponants moves. Any kind of tension from any emotion will cause you to loose that feel and softness. Against an extremely skilled opponent that will cost you. Against an average joe on the street maybe it will help you win, but against a skilled MAist you will be putting yourself allready in a disadvantageous situation.

7sm

I think uncontrolled rage could be an advantage,but only for the first hit(provided YOU get the first hit),after that,I think it's like wearing out tires on the first lap of a race,no controle at all.

I think controled rage is an oxymoron. Controlled Rage? I don't see that controlled rage is possible let alone advantageous. I know what you guys are saying about "controlled rage" but I don't believe that it is acually something you can control. To be in a state of rage is to be tense, to be out of control.

7sm

rage implies that one is not in control, and this is always a disadvantage.

controlled anger can give you an edge, but when you lose control, you get sloppy and usually lose the fight.


The Young Lady is correct. If you loose control bad things can happen. You can do things you wish you would not have done. You can do things that could end up getting a person into trouble with the law and going to jail or prison.

Controlled Anger, and or using the Adrenaline properly, will allow you to react and defend or take care of the situation, wihtout crossing a lines you cannot come back from.

Hmm... I think it would be useful to distinguish between "not clear" thinking and emotion. As a person seeking after the truth (in combat, in this case) we need to eliminate self-deception, bias, etc.

But emotion (including negative emotion) is part of the healthy human experience. Otherwise why don't we all get our limbic systems surgically removed? There is a place for rage... and fear... and sadness. We just have to understand and manage them.

Mr Bear,

Emotion has its' places. I agree that anger and fear will bring the adrenaline to help you fight. Rage and loss of thought, may allow for you to not feel the pain nor understand what you have done, until the rage is over. Then you have to live with your actions. In a civilized society, rage is not an acceptable emotion. Its' actions and by products are not productive to society. Now, if there are no laws and no ramification to your actions and you have no conscious or social conscious for your actions then Rage has a place. Just like the appendix had a place at one time.

Emotion is good. Not all emotions have a proper place. They do happen.

Just my opinion

I don't think rage has a place in any fighting situation. Even the one mentioned about to remifications of events. I think rage makes you tense regardless of if you think it does or not. I believe that rage makes you focus on an encounter when you shouldn't be focusing on it at all. That right there is why I think rage is not something that is going to give you any type of advantage in a fight.

If your raging and attacking a trained, skilled MAist opponant who is relaxed, and not set on beating you up as most reging people are, you are in a disadvantage.

7sm

It is best to learn to fight when you are stunned, shocked or scared. That's when you need to do it. If you have time to work up a rage, then you may have time to work out a way not to fight.

If I saw somebody working themselves into a rage, prior to attacking me I would get direct. Id go directly in, or directly away. Rage takes time, and that is a weakness in itself.

I've seen friends attacked and flown into a rage immediately, but I was essentially inneffective, just flying at the guy. Almost immediately the rage disappeared and then I was standing there shocked and stunned and lost, completely out of control of the situation.

The alternative to fear should be control, not rage. Breath deep, pucker up your lower gate and have a 'plan'. I plan on the way I relate to the opponent, the initial threat and the evolving threat.

I envisage scenarios which move between these three factors.
E.g.
Friend gets lairy at a party. I hold him and try to pull him somewhere quiet, while talking him down. He goes nuts and grabs a knife. I throw him down hard and grab a heavy object backing off, talking him down. He throws the knife away and bursts out crying, I take a scarf hold and continue talking to him.

By working through many, many scenarios, I hope to not freeze up, and get stuck with an innapropriate response. Just as I envision certain mistakes or openings my partner might make in sparring, and drill those in my mind as 'cues' for action, I do the same for 'cues' in self defence scenarios.

Clear thinking is a far better way, than trying to harness the power of rage.

I don't know if we're meaning slightly different things by rage. I don't THINK so, but it's a possibility. The emphasis on the settled mind is precisely one of the reasons I dislike certain arts as methodologies for self-defense. Suppose you get home one day and find the babysitter tied and gagged on the couch, and some whackjob about to screw your kid, who's tied to the table. I don't think you're going to be like a wooden doll, or responding like an echo. I think you will be a tad bit off kilter, and I think that intensity will give you a good impetus while you disable the guy. The sort of gross-motor stuff that some systems emphasize are resilient and robust to mental and emotional states (primarily it's anger and fear with which we concern ourselves in the combat context), which is an important asset. To blitzkrieg, straightblast, blender, Belfort-blast, or shredderize an assailant with intensity is the most natural thing in the world! Rage is by no means inimical to skillful and effective fighting! But then, imagine doing certain classical stuff with "intensity" or "rage", say a jump spinning kick, irimi into sankyo, or a complex silat takedown. That is indeed preposterous. If you have a look at the Laur article I posted on the FMJL thread, you'll have a clear idea of the train of thought underlying this.

I think that rage definently makes you fight sloppy,controlled or uncontrolled. IMO.

I am inclined to agree with Black Bear...likely due to the fact that I am of the school of thought that mindset is 90% of a battle.

Don't get me wrong, I believe that "mushin" is the ideal mindset for combative situations...no mind...not filtering your experience through your cognitive matrix of preconceptions...however being entirely devoid of emotion is to be devoid of motivation....those no motion.

But you need something to drive your will to harm and your fortitude to survive. I like to think that cold reason and determination will carry you through. Rage is sloppy, but I that it is easily confused with the cold anger (read killer instinct) that the most seasoned of combatants can/will experience if they love life and in their heart's wish to protect it.

And another note, I think fighting or killing without ANY emotion can be percieved as amoral...and to achieve it is teatering on socio-pathic. Without emotion, what is your motivation for harming/killing your assailant...because you can...because the opportunity arose? Emotions are natural, are human, are necessary.

No mind, but not no emotion...cold anger, not rage...these things go hand in hand but I see them as very different.

Most definently agree w/ that, very good point.

I can't agree as I have been in a situation where I happened upon a young girl being raped. Rage was not the first thing on my mind, it was making sure she was ok and to stop the threat. That meant disabling the attacker. The rage didn't start until hours after. It was pure business, doing what had to be done, but then again, I've had plenty of experience with that as a paramedic.I went to work immediatly, disablin gthe guy, not killing him. To spend too much time on him could be letting the injured woman die. You have to think of every angle. I disabled him, got to her, made sure she was stable, and got the authorities. She was in bad shape, so I had to focus my attention on her, who knows what might of happen to the attacker had I had to wait on the authorities bored!

With the same scenario Black Bear mentioned it would be fine to "rush" the guy with rage, but what if the guy has spent the last 25 years training in MA himself. Then your rage acts against you. When he has skill as well and you must use skill against skill, its a different story. In a scenario with an attacker with no training rage can actually help you, because you can ignore pain and such. However when it comes to true skill in saving yourself and not being killed, rage will only set you back. Rage in all scientific and biological studies proves it is not synonymous with fine motor skill.

I think it is ridiculous when speaking of having to use a high level of skill to defend yourself, to say rage can help you out. The point is that how do you know when or if the attacker has a high level of skill?

7sm

Very true also, lots of good points. The truth is, if the attacker has a high level of skill also, definently have to think w/ your head & not your arse. IMO.

With the same scenario Black Bear mentioned it would be fine to "rush" the guy with rage, but what if the guy has spent the last 25 years training in MA himself. . . . When he has skill as well and you must use skill against skill, its a different story. In a scenario with an attacker with no training rage can actually help you, because you can ignore pain and such. However when it comes to true skill in saving yourself and not being killed, rage will only set you back.

I think it is ridiculous when speaking of having to use a high level of skill to defend yourself, to say rage can help you out. The point is that how do you know when or if the attacker has a high level of skill?[/size]I can't for the life of me imagine why this would matter to me. I don't need fine and complex motor skill for what I do. The point is that rage or fear are likely to be present, because they are usually an integral part of the experience of naturalistic violence, as opposed to "artificial" violence. So you want tactics that are robust, resilient, and accessible under those conditions.

Rage in all scientific and biological studies proves it is not synonymous with fine motor skill.So?

I can't for the life of me imagine why this would matter to me. I don't need fine and complex motor skill for what I do. The point is that rage or fear are likely to be present, because they are usually an integral part of the experience of naturalistic violence, as opposed to "artificial" violence. So you want tactics that are robust, resilient, and accessible under those conditions.

So?
This is the response I expected as most arts don't train in using feeling such as feeling your opponants center, or feeling his energy and which way it is moving. If not using those skills, rage probably is a good thing. However, if you were to come in contact with an assailent trained in these skills, your rage would be a major point of attack for your assailent. With rage, you commit yourself to an attack which can get you killed. I don't expect you to understand it, because I didn't before either. But having fought people who know how to "feel" and move with the attack, it is impossible to use rage and gain an upper hand against them, trust me, I've tried.

You said you do not rely on fine or complex motor skill? What exactly do you rely on, your rage?

I dont agree that fear and rage will be present at the onset of the situation. As a paramedic I can tell you that running into a "crack house" while shots are being fired trying to find a wounded person to try and save their life in 5th ward in Houston, fear and rage are the last things on your mind, they are however the first on your mind at the ending of the situation. To allow fear and rage to be on your mind during that type of situation is what will get you killed.

7sm

You said you do not rely on fine or complex motor skill? What exactly do you rely on, your rage?I rely on myself. The totality of what I am capable of by virtue of my innate survival instinct and rigorous, scenario-based training. I suppose that doesn't answer your question. Specifically, I rely on gross-motor movements, which are accessible regardless of emotional state. As a causal modeling geek might say (*guilty*), they are "robust to variance in emotional state"--that is, their efficacy remains invariantly high irrespective of changes in emotional state.

I don't expect you to understand it, because I didn't before either. oh dear, aren't YOU smart. :rolleyes: No, I've been there and done that. When I started MA in my first year of undergraduate university, I was in aikido. I did Five Animal Shaolin for several years after that. Kali and boxing too, often use energy sensitivity, as does, surprise surprise, RBSD.

I rely on myself. The totality of what I am capable of by virtue of my innate survival instinct and rigorous, scenario-based training. I suppose that doesn't answer your question. Specifically, I rely on gross-motor movements, which are accessible regardless of emotional state. As a causal modeling geek might say (*guilty*), they are "robust to variance in emotional state"--that is, their efficacy remains invariantly high irrespective of changes in emotional state.

oh dear, aren't YOU smart. :rolleyes: No, I've been there and done that. When I started MA in my first year of undergraduate university, I was in aikido. I did Five Animal Shaolin for several years after that. Kali and boxing too, often use energy sensitivity, as does, surprise surprise, RBSD.
Personal attacks don't make your point more believable.

You rely on techniques that are "robust to variance in emotional state", correct? Also they are accessible regardless of emotional state? But yet they are energy sensitive? Thats not possible. Fear and Rage by existence cloud the mind, a techniqe that is "accessible regardless of emotional state" is not one that includes sensitivity of any kind. In RBSD have you spent time connecting forearms with a partner and following or continuing to stay conected while your partner moves around the room trying to loose your contact? ie. Sticking Drills? That is the type of feel or sensitivity I am speaking about. Also that requires great mental control and ability which is, once again, clouded by fear and rage.

7sm

Personal attacks don't make your point more believable.Oh, so you DO understand the point of what i just said. Do take it to heart my friend.

You rely on techniques that are "robust to variance in emotional state", correct? Also they are accessible regardless of emotional state? But yet they are energy sensitive? Thats not possible. Fear and Rage by existence cloud the mind, a techniqe that is "accessible regardless of emotional state" is not one that includes sensitivity of any kind. In RBSD have you spent time connecting forearms with a partner and following or continuing to stay conected while your partner moves around the room trying to loose your contact? ie. Sticking Drills? "...have you spent time..." IS the right question. The right answer, is YES. Do we? NO. Because we found it, over time, to not be as useful as other approaches. Which answers your earlier remarks. "...yet they are energy sensitive?" No. We don't do that stuff anymore. But you presumptuously and obnoxiously assume that that is because we ar ignorant of it. We discard it on the basis of our knowledge of it, not from a standpoint of ignorance.

That was why I was saying that you are smart.

Rage is bad.

I have used it against people.

They come up and call you Blankity Blank.

I reply How are you Blankity Blank.

(* You see they have already told you what they do not like the most. Thsi is why they use this insult. It is their favorite because it gets to them *)

Then the person gets upset, charges, losses control, and they do not think properly.

Embrace the Adrenaline, let it was over you. (* Adrenaline is a tough drug to kick *). Stay calm yet ready, and wait for them to make the mistake.

Oh, so you DO understand the point of what i just said. Do take it to heart my friend. I understand your point, but as my post stated it is unbelievable. Its amazing how many times with you I'm havin gto quote myself. Your very good at twisting my post around to try and mean something else, your almost better than my wife I think.

"...have you spent time..." IS the right question. The right answer, is YES. Do we? NO. Because we found it, over time, to not be as useful as other approaches. Which answers your earlier remarks. "...yet they are energy sensitive?" No. We don't do that stuff anymore. But you presumptuously and obnoxiously assume that that is because we ar ignorant of it. We discard it on the basis of our knowledge of it, not from a standpoint of ignorance.How exactly did you find it to be not as useful? What is the determining factor in this discovery? Is it because you didn't have the time to do the training? Its amazing to me that a small group of people have taken what thousands of years of MA has created from hundreds of styles and created a base system of a static amount of moves and thus circumscribed the perfect collection of usefull techniques. You also don't use that "stuff" about energy sensitive anymore either I see. The only reason I "presumtuously assume" (isn't that a bit redundant?) its because of ignorance is because of the effectivness of it. Its simple biology and psychology, elementary even, that proves what clouds the mind, thats why I "assume" what I did.

Grant it, in most situations you won't "need" that energy sensitive "stuff" to come out on top, nor the IB training, but don't we train for the unexpected? Don't we train for the odds? What are the odds of you getting jumped everytime you step foot outside your house? The sensitivity can save your life in a situation like one of our students faced recently. Walking out of a resturant with his family, he was attacked from behind by a guy who placed him in a full nelson and walked him to the side of the resturant where his two buddies waited with guns. The sensitivity would have saved him had he been able to feel the attackers hands before being in the hold allready. Feeling his energy pushing forward at his kidney level, he could have yielded with the energy turning the attack into a hold of his own. This was the case with one of my training partners who faced almost the exact same scenario.

My point is simply don't write off as useless things that you choose not to practice. To do so implies you know what works and everything you don't do doesn't work. Not so.

7sm

My point is simply don't write off as useless things that you choose not to practice. That is the most hilarious thing you have said this entire thread. You understand that you have the cart before the horse here, right? As I was attempting to explain?

To do so implies you know what works and everything you don't do doesn't work. Not so.Non sequitur. By that same reasoning, you could say that any time that you make a decision TO train something, or a decision NOT to train something, it is because you know everything that does and doesn't work.

If I have twisted your words, show me how. And I must meet this wife of yours. She sounds delightful.

I'll be back to finish the rest later. I just got back from filling an out of town assessment contract.

strength comes with self control and general tranquility, not rage

Well I have always thought that anger never helps! It always makes you tense espcially if you are fighting against someone much more experienced! I have a friend who has been practicing Taekwondo for a little over a year and he is 33 and so not very flexible and cannot kick up to head height! I guess he gets so frustrated when he is sparring with higher grades than him! he has been warned for being too excessive! he has even joked about his behaviour calling himself the Tasmanian Devil!
Personally speaking I have found that fear has helped me a lot! Only last night I managed to evade quite a few blows with someone much more experienced while we were doing semi contact. He would charge at me trying to do a punch and I would simply duck without thinking! I do also have this bad habit of turning my back which is a no no when in tournaments! but I have never entered any tournaments! The guy I sparred with had so I think I did quite well considering. Of I had been full of rage I would not have done as well! Fear is a good friend if you know how to use it but anger blinds! Focused aggression may work just to help getting too overflowed with fear!
I remember as I was walking down town in the evening, three guys were shouting comments at me! I had every reason to be afraid not knowing their intentions, so I tried using a little anger to prepare myself for a possible confrontation, just enough so that I would not be totally paralysed with fear unable to move! Luckily they did not continue!

Non sequitur. By that same reasoning, you could say that any time that you make a decision TO train something, or a decision NOT to train something, it is because you know everything that does and doesn't work.
This is getting tiresome! When I said "choose not to train" I ment as a whole, not an a daily basis, but as a whole in your MA training entirety. We could play the faulty logic game, but your analogy is wrong. I based my statement on what you had said about your training and your thoughts on the training of others. In this thread we are talking about rage as it applies to fighting. There is no scientific or otherwise credible source that shows rage and or anger or even fear contribute to sound decision making. In a self defense situation, you want to make the most sound decisions you have ever made.

Your using an ill founded generalization to say that because you have fought while inraged and became successful that rage is good for fighting. Thats simply not the reality of it. Rage effects decision making, fine and complex motor skills, rational, and even control. Explain how MA is still complete and corect without those qualities?

7sm

Your using an ill founded generalization to say that because you have fought while inraged and became successful that rage is good for fighting. Oh, that's interesting, because I don't recall saying any such thing.

"Thats simply not the reality of it. Rage effects decision making, fine and complex motor skills, rational, and even control. Explain how MA is still complete and corect without those qualities?"
LMAO! Who said anything about complete and correct martial arts? I thought we were talking about whether or not it is a source of strength in the event of a counterassault!

Oh, that's interesting, because I don't recall saying any such thing.
I rely on myself. The totality of what I am capable of by virtue of my innate survival instinct and rigorous, scenario-based training. I suppose that doesn't answer your question. Specifically, I rely on gross-motor movements, which are accessible regardless of emotional state... we found it, over time, to not be as useful as other approaches. Which answers your earlier remarks. "...yet they are energy sensitive?" No. We don't do that stuff anymore.
LMAO! Who said anything about complete and correct martial arts? I thought we were talking about whether or not it is a source of strength in the event of a counterassault!
I appologize, if what you are saying is that you spend your time and energy, all your experience and trial and error on finding the most incorrect techniques, I misunderstood you completely.

What my point was (as I'm sure you allready understand) is that without decision making, fine and complex motor skills, rational, and even control, what strengths do you receive? Could you list me strengths that rage bestows upon you?

7sm

You are good at using the quote function, but not at propositional logic. How does that in any way relate to "Your using an ill founded generalization to say that because you have fought while inraged and became successful that rage is good for fighting."

Until you start making sense... see you elsewhere. The contents of this thread speak for themselves for anyone reading.

So I guess a list of strengths that rage provides a fighter is out of the question?


7sm

Margaritas ante porcos? I think not.

strength comes with self control and general tranquility, not rage

I hate to sound new agey, but this sounds a lot like the message in the Star Wars movies as well. The point of this reference (other than to expose my geek status) is that within the analogy, the greater strength over time comes as you have described. The strength of rage may be faster to come, but it isn't as controlled and is definitely can be more costly when it is unleashed.

Hit a guy because your defending yourself with angerless agression or righteous indignation and you are 'defending yourself and have a better shot at stopping when it is time.

Hit a guy because you are enraged, and you run the risk of excessive force, not stopping, sounding like a fool when the cops interview you.... consequences galore

Paul M

Anger and rage are never a good thing. All negative emotions even if used to your precieved advantage aren;t good. Nothing good can come out of using negative things. And while training, one of the biggest things people try to accomblish is how to fight smart, not just a brawl, and they way to smart fight is with your head and training and not emotion of any type. People must learn to fight without emotion and to fight with skill and knowledge otherwise it would be like fighting with no training in a street brawl, and we are certainly above that type of fighting.

I don't agree, in fighting there is no place for emotion. To say that they are human experiences and thus be a part of fighting is to imply that humans are made for fighting and we all know that is not the case. If we were, we wouldn't have to train so hard, man I wish that was the case!

I don't base my philosophies on Bruce Lee, but he summed it up good again in this quote: "The knowledge and skills you have achieved are meant to be forgotten so you can float comfortably in emptiness, without obstruction.

The great mistake is to anticipate the outcome of the engagement; you ought not to be thinking of whether it ends in victory or defeat. Let nature take it's course, and your tools will strike at the right moment.

JMO,
7sm

I don't think "emotion" and "predicting the end result" are the same thing at all. Bruce Lee doesn't really apply to your theory. To say that there is no room for emotion is illogical... ideally there may be none, but realistically there is always emotion. What else would motivate you to win the fight?

You talked about coming across a rape victim and that it was "all business, no emotion," which makes you sound inhuman. Maybe you can't empathize... maybe you've never felt weak to the point of helplessness? Maybe you've never been so severly humiliated? Maybe you've never been VIOLATED like that. Rape is tricky because oftentimes the victims feel ashamed about what happened. I could be completely wrong here and generalizing way too much, but most men haven't encountered that. Men are stronger than women. Period. I've felt overpowered... it's not a good feeling, and I've never even been sexually assaulted. If I saw a woman being raped, my natural emotion would be anger. Not blind rage, but I can guarantee my first thought would be "Who the hell does that sickf*** think he is!?" Even if I wanted to think along the lines of "Alrighty, here we go... business time," I wouldn't be able to. And I don't think it's because I'm mentally weak.

When it comes to self-defence, does rage help? I often wonder this because an absolute pure rage makes you have the kind of advantages of being drunk (not feeling the pain of hits) but without the discoordination and slow reaction times. It also I think enables you to hit far more powerfully than usual. I question whether it does slow you down slightly though because a clear relaxed mind usually makes me personally much quicker.

thoughts...

d
I've had it work for me, and against me. Had occasions where I went visually black/red, and don't remember a thing, only to "come to" over a downed opponent, with witnesses rerlating some really cool stuff I wish I could remember, and have had other times where losing my cool and NOT seeing red, I've just been stupid and unable to find my training. Have been cool, calm, and a little annoyed at my most dangerous, but have done some things in that state I wish I could take back. Think there's an argument there for 2 differrent camps:

1. Rigorous training embeds into the deeper mind, and will takes over when we're lost;
or
2. Anger blocks cognition, and the mind...as the most powerful weapon we have...is the most necessary element to have present in combat.

I don't think "emotion" and "predicting the end result" are the same thing at all. Bruce Lee doesn't really apply to your theory. To say that there is no room for emotion is illogical... ideally there may be none, but realistically there is always emotion. What else would motivate you to win the fight?

You talked about coming across a rape victim and that it was "all business, no emotion," which makes you sound inhuman. Maybe you can't empathize... maybe you've never felt weak to the point of helplessness? Maybe you've never been so severly humiliated? Maybe you've never been VIOLATED like that. Rape is tricky because oftentimes the victims feel ashamed about what happened. I could be completely wrong here and generalizing way too much, but most men haven't encountered that. Men are stronger than women. Period. I've felt overpowered... it's not a good feeling, and I've never even been sexually assaulted. If I saw a woman being raped, my natural emotion would be anger. Not blind rage, but I can guarantee my first thought would be "Who the hell does that sickf*** think he is!?" Even if I wanted to think along the lines of "Alrighty, here we go... business time," I wouldn't be able to. And I don't think it's because I'm mentally weak.
I never said emotion and "predicting the outcome" are the same thing, but one is accompanied by the other normally. Illogical would be to assume that some type of emotion causeing you to loose control of yourself can be a benefit when defending against a skilled opponent for your life.

The rape scenario is hard to understand by people who have never been through intense training for, or had years of experience with life and death scenarios or decisions. As a paramedic you understand and addresss each situation. What needs to be done, in what order does it need to be done in, and what will make it most possible for both yourself and the victim to survive. I've felt overpowered before, but its not something I'm willing to let anyone make me feel again. If you don't address each situation absent from what your anger or rage would have you do, you can make some big mistakes in judgement that could result in loss of life, limb, or property.

7sm

I haven't read the entire thread due to length and time, but I think it is possible to eliminate emotion when it comes to life and death. Once I had a drunk come to me with a knife and wanting to fight so he can show me how worthless my martial art training was. :idunno:

Long story short, the entire episode between talk, action, and aftermath I
did not feel emotion. No fear, hate, rage, anger, nothing. That isn't to say I didn't feel anything. I felt a "pit" in my stomach and I felt "ready". The only thing going through my mind was, "Somebody (me or him) is going to the hospital." Followed by being aware of my surroundings and thinking of the best way to fight in the situation.

Just because you don't have emotion does not mean you lose the desire to live. Just means that it allows logic and common sense to be your guide. The desire to live didn't enter my brain. I had a situation. I had to settle the situation one way or the other.

Rage in that situation would've probably proved fatal (for me). Dispite the strength advantage, it makes you stupid. My grandpa always taught me to piss people off. That way they make mistakes.

Anger can lead to hasty decisions and causes you to tense up, which leads to fighting your own body when you move.

Stubborn Determination is the best way in my opinion.

I don't know if we're meaning slightly different things by rage. I don't THINK so, but it's a possibility. The emphasis on the settled mind is precisely one of the reasons I dislike certain arts as methodologies for self-defense. Suppose you get home one day and find the babysitter tied and gagged on the couch, and some whackjob about to screw your kid, who's tied to the table. I don't think you're going to be like a wooden doll, or responding like an echo. I think you will be a tad bit off kilter, and I think that intensity will give you a good impetus while you disable the guy. The sort of gross-motor stuff that some systems emphasize are resilient and robust to mental and emotional states (primarily it's anger and fear with which we concern ourselves in the combat context), which is an important asset. To blitzkrieg, straightblast, blender, Belfort-blast, or shredderize an assailant with intensity is the most natural thing in the world! Rage is by no means inimical to skillful and effective fighting! But then, imagine doing certain classical stuff with "intensity" or "rage", say a jump spinning kick, irimi into sankyo, or a complex silat takedown. That is indeed preposterous. If you have a look at the Laur article I posted on the FMJL thread, you'll have a clear idea of the train of thought underlying this.
I agree 100%. Well said.

When I was thinking about what would put me into a true rage. It would be someone doing harm to either my wife, or kids. I think at times, some people confuse rage with anger and/or frustration. But as much as rage could hurt you in a fight, mentally it can help you. If you were faced with a life or death situation, most of us cringe at the gruesome thought of taking someone's life. But what if you were in a situation where you come in and someone has a knife to your child’s throat and is about to/or in the middle of raping them, your wife is bleeding on the floor. The blind rage that you would go into would put only one thought into your mind, kill that SOB and save my family. You would not be processing what horrible sight you have just come across, and what wicked job you are doing to this sicko. And if you are lucky, maybe not even remember what you did - except knowing that you just saved your family's life. I don't care if you've had 100 years of training, nothing can prepare you for killing someone. I think your mind and body will always do what’s best to protect you, and I think that is what rage is. If you want to really learn about what you would go through if you had to kill someone, I suggest you read the book (Black Bear, I think you would love this book) - On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman. One of the best analogies in the book is it says that all the tough macho people walking around saying "I would kill someone if they"........or "I would have no problem killing someone if they broke into my house" is like a bunch of virgins talking about what sex is like. Here is an excerpt from the back of the book.

"On Killing is an important study of the techniques the military uses to overcome the powerful reluctance to kill, of how killing affects the soldier, and the societal implications of escalating violence"

Some may think this is a little off topic but the book does discuss a lot in depth about a lot of stuff that has been said in this thread.

Honestly, I agree with you to the point that there is nothing that would enrage me more than seeing something being done to my family or loved ones. However, the problem with rage is that many times like you said " the only thing on your mine is killing that SOB". Well, that may just put you in prison and what good did that do your family? Rage is a loss of control because of emotion. Any loss of control can be dangerous. Rage, in its true deffinition is linked to insantity, this shows the uncontroled emotion of it. It is also linked with violence thus showing the nature of it. 1 a : violent and uncontrolled anger b : a fit of violent wrath c archaic : INSANITY - Merriam-Webster


I think we disagree in that I believe a completly sound and rational mind would protect your family even more so as you could stop yourself from killing him thus leaving your family for prison also you could disable him and have the state of mind to return to your family and tend to their wounds or call for help in a timely fashion. I've seen lots of death by many different devices and I can tell you there is not room for emotion especially rage when attempting to save one of those lives. Dont get me wrong, I'm not saying dont kill him if that is called for, but then saying, "I will kill that SOB regardless" kind of fits into the analogy from your book refrence.

7sm

Honestly, I agree with you to the point that there is nothing that would enrage me more than seeing something being done to my family or loved ones. However, the problem with rage is that many times like you said " the only thing on your mine is killing that SOB". Well, that may just put you in prison and what good did that do your family? Rage is a loss of control because of emotion. Any loss of control can be dangerous. Rage, in its true deffinition is linked to insantity, this shows the uncontroled emotion of it. It is also linked with violence thus showing the nature of it. 1 a : violent and uncontrolled anger b : a fit of violent wrath c archaic : INSANITY - Merriam-Webster


I think we disagree in that I believe a completly sound and rational mind would protect your family even more so as you could stop yourself from killing him thus leaving your family for prison also you could disable him and have the state of mind to return to your family and tend to their wounds or call for help in a timely fashion. I've seen lots of death by many different devices and I can tell you there is not room for emotion especially rage when attempting to save one of those lives. Dont get me wrong, I'm not saying dont kill him if that is called for, but then saying, "I will kill that SOB regardless" kind of fits into the analogy from your book refrence.

7sm

Very true. Good point.

This thread seems to have degraded to a argument over semanitcs. One side says "You should be calm/relaxed/detatched in all situations." The other says "People have emotions like it or not."

It's not clear whether or not people are disagreeing. So I'll launch into an anecdote...

Last summer, I went with a friend and two aquiantences on a road trip. Once there, the aquiantences proved to be jerks, culminating in them attempting to steal over $300 worth of electronics equipment from the guy who's hosted us during our stay. (In their minds, they were getting revenge because the guy wanted $10 per houseguest.)

My friend and I demanded that they return the stolen property. They decided to threaten to kick us out of the car if we didn't go with their decision. I took the stolen stuff, and exited. My friend followed suit. We walked away with the car doors still open and the two were just sitting there in the middle of the street in apparent shock. The stuff was returned, and a day later we returned to CO via Greyhound.

I didn't have much emotional attachment to the people involved. I was mainly angry that they'd decided to stick us with such an classless act and that they gave us so little credit that they thought they'd have us cornered just because they owned the car.

I didn't threaten them, I didn't rage at them, or attack them. I simply left and gutted their "victory". I spent the morning trying to find my bearings in a strange neighborhood and calming my friend down. (Not really doable since he'd considered them both to be his friends and he was feeling very betrayed etc.)

If they'd gotten out of the car and tried to stop us from leaving, I would've torn into 'em, (I probably outweigh 'em both, and one's never been in a fight in his life) but as it was, I wouldn't describe my mood as angry much less a rage. I get torqued off real fast now thinking about it, but at the time, it was an inconvenience. Call it shock or whatever, but I felt very removed from the drama. (On top of that, Greyhound was the cheaper option vs covering gas costs.)

The two times I've been physically attacked, I wasn't angry. I was feeling the same sensation of insulation and removal as I was in the aforementioned incident. I get mad thinking about what happened in each case now, but at the time I couldn't have been harnessing rage because I just wasn't feeling the emotion. Harnessing disbelief just doesn't sound cool.

I don't really beleive that anger can be removed from the equation whether it's present in force or deferred, it's still going to be there. I don't need to be angry to hit the bag, spar etc so I can't beleive that it's a vital emotion to be searching out during a fight either.

All that said, it's certainly possible to moderate your reaction to any given emotion. People have emotions, they aren't ruled by them. I tend to temper impulses that'd otherwise lead to angry outbursts since I haven't found them to be constructive. Guess my roundabout point is, remaining calm doesn't mean you're not potentially seething mentally. It just means you're still rational and thinking.

All that said, it's certainly possible to moderate your reaction to any given emotion. People have emotions, they aren't ruled by them. I tend to temper impulses that'd otherwise lead to angry outbursts since I haven't found them to be constructive. Guess my roundabout point is, remaining calm doesn't mean you're not potentially seething mentally. It just means you're still rational and thinking.
Thats a good point, remaining calm doesn't mean your not angry. Rage on the other hand keeps you from still being rational and thinking. I think the issue on this thread is the different usages of the word rage. Some use it more willingly than others. From a medical background I tend to put more emphasis on the actual deffinition which is being out of control. You said it perfect when you said "still rational and thinking". If you are still rational and thinking then by deffinition you are not in rage. I think that is the problem, no one is settling on one deffinition so we are all arguing our own beliefs of what rage is.

7sm

Definitely weakness.

Facts: I have been studying MAs for 14 years i have never gotten mad in the Dojo.

I do have a problem with rage I have a short temper when it comes too stupid stuff my saying is the stupid shall be punished. However when I get really Pi$$ed off I can not control myself. I do things I later regret. I have never hit a person out of rage but I would hate to see the outcome. It is like the biggest adrenaline boost you can have you are just out of control and the only way out of your body and mind physically. Now that I have had my time on the couch and that being said Martial Arts has helped me with my personal life and attitude.

Respectfully