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Which technique are you currently investigating? (working on).

I've been looking into irimi-tenkan for a long time. Specially the moment just at the beginging af the irimi. Should the foot turn a once, or is there a slight movement forward first? Right now I believe the later....

How about you, wha tare you working on right now?

/Yari

Well, in a single class we can work on 3 or 4 different techniques and we don't usually spend the whole class on a single technique (unless it's same technique, different variations or attacks). But last week, our sensei told my mom and I that we need to work on Shomenuchi Shiho Nage. Probably because either of us who's nage keeps forgetting how it starts. :o

However, I have had a VERY intense breakfall fear for 3 years and just two weeks ago, I worked past it. (It wasn't really 'me' alone who got past it actually as I started praying about my fear and I had several people praying for me and that's what really changed it.) Anyway, I'm now (willingly) working on the low and medium breakfalls (and feeling happy about it) and eventually I'll work up to the higher ones. It's SO wonderful because I have loved Aikido EXCEPT for the breakfall parts because of such an intense fear I had. Now, it's like that big wall of fear is melted away and I feel lighter. Soon I can love and enjoy ALL parts of Aikido!!!!! :) :asian:

Robyn :asian:

I've been working on a lot of different techs but the one I'm trying to concentrate the most on right now is ikkyo nage (arm bar throw in my style). I like the tech because it can be used off of just about any attack. My problem comes in when I try to get control of the elbow once the arm bends. That's why I go to class I reckon, practice, practice and practice some more.

Opal Dragon, I'm glad that you got over your fear of learning breakfalls. Falling has never been a problem for me but some of the higher breakfalls still give me a problem now and then. We have one fellow in our class that flops around like he has springs in his butt. Repition is your best friend for breakfalls, I think. If you fall often enough it becomes second nature.

Thanks letch. :) "Springs in his butt"! That's funny! :D Learning to fall has been one of the hardest things for my mom and I but we are actually very slow at learning everything! :o But yes, repetition is the key (or ki)! I didn't have a chance to try any breakfalls last night but I got my very first concussion in class! Very weird feeling but I feel fine this morning.

Robyn :asian:

If you get a concussion, take it easy!

Learning to fall isn't easy, so doen't worry it'll come.
And doen't worry that it takes time. If your enjoying it, your learning it, and that's the point!

/Yari

If your enjoying it, your learning it, and that's the point! Excellent phrase, Yari. I like it.

Opal Dragon, that concussion can be a doozy for a while even if you feel fine. Take it very easy for a while. That skull is your brain bucket, ya know. Glad to hear that the injury hasn't dampened your enthusiasm for the art. I feel for ya, I broke yet another toe tonight in class. It's a really nice purple and blue right now. The one beside it is already at a 45 degree angle from a previous break so taping it to the broken one may not be much help for the healing. There is something to be said for a group of people that get their skulls cracked and bones broken and just say "Man! was that a great class or what?!":D

Originally posted by theletch1
There is something to be said for a group of people that get their skulls cracked and bones broken and just say "Man! was that a great class or what?!":D


That's normal, or is it just the people I have around me?

;) :rofl: :cool: :D :cool:

/Yari

It is most definetly the company we keep. I've been training a new driver at work for the last week or so and he accompanies me to my aikido class to wait for me. He just shakes his head and wonders why anyone would put themselves through that kind of pain and actually have fun doing it.

It's been 2 days and I still feel headachy (sometimes more than others) and dizzy (when I move or walk too fast). My mom doesn't think I got a 'real' concussion because she thinks my headache would be much worse than it is. I'm trying to take it easy for whatever it is but I still want to go to class tonight! However if I feel later like I am right now, I might have to just watch. :( It's just weird as after it happened, a few minutes later I felt alright enough to continue class and I even continued being Sensei's uke for the rest of the class. Yesterday and today so far, I've felt more dizzy than I did in class and it's not like I'm rolling around or anything. Weird.

Letch, I'm sorry you broke a toe!!! :erg: I've never broken anything before so I'm scared about that but it sounds like you're used to it. Since I've now had it, I'm not afraid of concussions (or almost concussions) any more. Is that how it is guys? Once it happens, you get over it and it's an inconvenience and hurts but it doesn't scar (emotionally, mentally) you forever, huh??? It's probably different for different people, right?

Robyn :asian:

It is certainly different for different people. I am indeed used to breaking toes and fingers and....well, you get the picture. I grew up out in the country/woods and played REALLY rough as a kid, then 7 years as a Marine and now martial arts and driving a truck for a living so injuries are a fairly regular thing for me. Several of us in class last night were chuckling because there are many many people in the class that have something taped up. Wrists seem to be the big thing right now. There were 4 of us with tape on one wrist or another. The fact that you are looking forward to returning to training tonight is a great sign. Too often folks are turned off by injuries and just don't go back. Having said that Let me say this....your brain is nothing to get careless with. Train with caution if you train at all. If you are still feeling dizzy in a day or two please have your mom take you to a doctor. Remember that she's not a mind reader so you'll have to keep her updated on how you are feeling. Good luck and happy training.

Well, we ended up not going to class at all tonight partly because of my head but mostly because of the bad weather. :( So I'm just going to try to take it as easy as possible until Saturday morning (I don't want to miss Kaishi Waza!!!). Your right about being careful so if I start getting dizzy, I'll stop. ;)

I've never been a rough person or liked roughness so I don't train that way. I'm naturally cautious (especially when I was a kid) so I never try to do the techniques on uke too fast otherwise out of my own clumsiness, I might hurt somebody. I also don't like others going fast or being rough on me for the same reason. Thankfully, that doesn't happen often. :) Slower and with emphasis on fluidity and control is how we're constantly told to do the technique (and how I prefer). Speed can come later but it'll be pretty neat someday when I can actually do techniques quickly and effectively without killing myself or uke in the process!
:D Maybe in 10 years! ;)

Robyn :asian: :D :cool:

I think that you may have a better grasp on aikido than I do. I've always been rough and tumble and it shows in most aspects of my life. The style of aikido that I practice is not an off shoot of Usheiba style and does not delve as deeply into the meditative side of things. As a style we tend to be a bit more aggressive if you can wrap that word around aikido at all. Good luck and let us know how saturday training went.

Hi Letch! :)

I've only been to 2 Aikido seminars so far but a few of the people that I've met (often blackbelts) are rougher in their training and style (in how they throw people and execute their techniques, I mean) than we are. I've also met plenty of blackbelts who do their technques just as effectively but are really gentle! It's just different with how everybody in their dojo trains and what they're used to. So far, 2 or 3 of what I call 'the roughest' people in Aikido that I've met were actually blackbelts in the head school of our small organization! I think it greatly depends on how the head sensei of your dojo is and trains. If mine was really rough and fast, I would have either grown accustomed to that way or have been scared off.

Class this morning was a lot of fun! :) I could only participate for the first 15 or 20 minutes before I had to sit out from dizzyness. About 10 minutes later, I went back in just so I could try the Keishi (sp?) Waza Kotigieshi technique that everyone else was doing. I was planning to go sit out and rest again after I did the technique anyway but even if I didn't want to, I had to go sit out from getting dizzy again. (At least I'm not seeing double or anything like that.)

Still, it was a fun class and even though I couldn't do much, I'm happy that I got to go. :) After class, when we all went out for our usual coffee together, my headache returned again but it's never been painful enough to take medication for (except once yesterday). Still, I'm wondering how long I'm going to feel this way and if it's 'normal'. I REALLY don't want to pay to go see a doctor if this is 'normal' and there's nothing that can be done about it except rest. >sigh<

Robyn :asian:

Originally posted by The Opal Dragon
I think it greatly depends on how the head sensei of your dojo is and trains. If mine was really rough and fast, I would have either grown accustomed to that way or have been scared off.



I'm jumping in here.... I agree. We have the same thing in our Dojo. Peoples personality shon through there Aikido.

I REALLY don't want to pay to go see a doctor if this is 'normal' and there's nothing that can be done about it except rest. >sigh<



I can understand the frustration of going to the doctor and paying money, just to find out that there isn't anything wrong. But it's a kind of insurance.

If it's the first time you've had a concussion of this kind, you don't know the sign's. So you could be walking around with something serious. But going to the doctor give's you the insurance that what your feeling is OK. So next time, you know and won't go to the doctor before it feels worse.

When it comes to the head, you need to relax. Don't push it. You could get brain ingury (sp?). You might not feel you have it, and it miight not show now, but it could come later. So take it easy.

THe dizzyness, isn't a sign of "pratice too much", but a sign of you shouldn't have trained at all. Specially things that make your head "boing", should be avoided at all.

/Yari

Boy do I feel like a hypocrite saying this, but.... go see a doctor. I've injured myself pretty severly and taken care of it myself. I've broken bones, had sprains that probably should have had a doctors attention and even collapsed a lung and continued to work for about 5 or 6 hours before the pain forced me to the hospital. However, those were not head injuries. A concussion is a bruised brain (I know, you know that already). You could indeed have some minor internal bleeding/swelling. Take Yari's advice and get the insurance of knowing what is normal for YOU for a head injury and what should set off alarm bells. It doesn't mean you're weak (although you seem to be above that) if you go to a doctor. Yes, the bills are a pain but the alternative to not going to the doctor for a head injury can be much more expensive. I certainly hope you begin to feel better soon.

Yari, you weren't "jumping in". You are a welcome member of the aikido community and a voice of reason in this conversation.;)

I think what both of you guys said is true and important. I talked to both of my parents after church yesterday morning (I had a headache during church) and I looked at several webpages about concussions and I know that I really do have a concussion but just a minor one. (Which means I probably won't be going to a doctor.) I don't have the nausia and I haven't had any problems with the 'things I should look out for' and I know to just rest. They said that symptoms can last for weeks to months (I guess it's different with everybody and how severe it was). That kills me about class tomorrow though because I really wish I could participate but Yari's right that I should probably just sit and watch and not try to do any of it. :wah: I'll let you know if anything happens or if I do end up going to the doctor after all. :)

Robyn :asian:

p.s. This is the main concussion webpage that I was looking at (I looked at others too). http://www.aafp.org/afp/990901ap/990901e.html

Thanks for the link

Take care. You have to remember that you have to care of the concussion, and not let the concussion that care of you!

But sometimes you can learn more by sitting and watching than anything else, because then your focus is on watching!

Aikido is about using what there is, and bringing it to something good!


/Yari

My family switched medical insurances and my dad came home with our new cards last night so we made a doctor appointment this morning and I went this afternoon! I got all checked out and the doctor told me that I don't quite have a 'real' concussion since I didn't go unconscious but "I have the next best thing" as she put it. She wrote up a prescription for something that will help my dizziness and while she's 99.9% sure that I don't have anything "wrong" in my head (meaning brain swelling or damage), I'm set up for a kat scan (sp?) tomorrow just to be on the safe side. She also said that exercise is good but no jumping or rolling all over the place and that I can continue my normal Aikido training 2 days after all my symptoms are gone. I feel much better after I went and got checked out just for the security feeling. :)

I wasn't going to participate in class at all tonight but then my mom and I realized that I can probably do the techniques but just not go down as uke or try any rolls. It worked out perfectly tonight as we had 2 new guys so the whole class was just the basic stances, turns, and rolls (I didn't do a single roll!). That was nice! :)

I do like watching class sometimes though. I know that you can learn a lot just from watching from the sidelines. :) Last year, my mom and I went to the early Saturday morning classes and she did it while I just watched (I wasn't used to the time so my stomach was always upset for the first couple of months). I learned a lot during that time as I really got to "see" when people were off balance, centered, or not. It was neat! :asian:

Robyn :asian: :asian: :asian:

Opal Dragon, great to hear that you went to the doc and got some piece of mind (no pun intended).

Back to the original topic of the thread. I was watching a video by Sensei Robert MacEwen jr. the other day and saw him do a combination of techs together that actually worked well for me in class that night. The techs were kodaigashi (sp) into shihonage. The premise is that you may encounter someone who is VERY flexible and a front wrist throw won't work. Simply remove the top hand from ukes hand and come from beneath his wrist with that hand, grasp the hand of uke and execute shihonage. Even the most flexible of ukes will go over on this one.

Would that be a form of Henka Waza? Changing techniques? It sounds like it.

Robyn :asian:

Originally posted by theletch1
Opal Dragon, great to hear that you went to the doc and got some piece of mind (no pun intended).

Back to the original topic of the thread. I was watching a video by Sensei Robert MacEwen jr. the other day and saw him do a combination of techs together that actually worked well for me in class that night. The techs were kodaigashi (sp) into shihonage. The premise is that you may encounter someone who is VERY flexible and a front wrist throw won't work. Simply remove the top hand from ukes hand and come from beneath his wrist with that hand, grasp the hand of uke and execute shihonage. Even the most flexible of ukes will go over on this one.


Sound good! I think I'll wokr on that one.

Annother one is a sankyo, that doesn't work. You release, and "push the arm down, going over to a shihonage.

Just as an input. In our style of Aikido the entrance for irimi-nage, kotegaishi, ude-kiminage, shihonage and higikiminage are the same for omote entrance. So you can "change" between them depending upon uke.

/Yari

Five swords and loving it

Originally posted by Nick Ellerton
Five swords and loving it


Could you explain what "five swords" is?

/Yari

Five swords is a kenpo technique against a punch. It begins by stepping into uke (irimi) with a double outward block to the punching arm. Shuto edge to the throat, rake the eyes as you cross step backwards, shuto to the back of the neck and upward shuto to the throat. If I remember my kenpo correctly from a year or so ago that is five swords. There is also a seven swords technique which is the same with a couple extra strikes... two more spear hands I think,,,, one to the eyes and one to the solar plexus.

Jeff sorry mate but looking at the description you gave of Five swords there are a few things u said that are a little different to the way i was taught and the way it is written.

Straigt right or round right stepthrough punch. Right neutral bow stepping in. Double inward block. outward right hand sword, into right forward bow left finger strike to the eye. unwind into right neutral bow executing an uppercut to the solarplexus. rounding off the circle as you step to 4 30 and executing a left outward hand sword hoocking the back of the neck after the strike has landed fulcruming their head down as you utelise rotational torque executing a downward hand sword to the back of your opponents neck.

Thats howi was taught five swords briefly. But yeah it really does depend on who you were taught by. take care guys.

Sound pretty sound to me, but the termanology isn't known for me, which makes it difficult to understand(visualize).

/Yari

Five Swords is not an Aikido technique, which may explain a lot too :)

As for me, my last class was on Shiho-Nage variations. I never used to like that throw, but now I've seen just how many throws it can be -- OK, a sampling of the infinite number.

We primarily train in the Jutsu fashion, and for many of the variations, there is no ukemi, the arm is just broken where it is, or is broken when the uke is in flight.

Five Swords is not an Aikido technique, which may explain a lot too :)

As for me, my last class was on Shiho-Nage variations. I never used to like that throw, but now I've seen just how many throws it can be -- OK, a sampling of the infinite number.

We primarily train in the Jutsu fashion, and for many of the variations, there is no ukemi, the arm is just broken where it is, or is broken when the uke is in flight.
I love this technique for just that reason...the flexibility of it's uses. If uke were to put up the same resistance in the dojo that you can expect on the street I suspect that quite a few of the techniques in aikido would turn into breaks right then and there. I had the impression that aikido was this gentle, meditative art and not any good for self defense until I began the study of the art first hand. I have to say that my impression was wrong. This can be a very devastating art when applied with force and intention.

I posted in my earlier post that the tech I was working was kodegaishi into shihonage when I should have posted that it was nikkyo into shihonage. Sorry for the mix up. We don't use japanese names for the techniques in NGA so I have to refer to a list that I have when discussing this with folks from the traditional styles. My apologies for any confusion. :asian:

I agree. Many people do not know the roots of Aikido as most Aikido schools are just that, -Do schools. If you ever get to practice Aiki-Jujutsu, or Ju-Jutsu, you will see the similarities and family groupings between the two arts and learn how Aikido can become a "hard-style" art.
:asian:

I agree. Many people do not know the roots of Aikido as most Aikido schools are just that, -Do schools. If you ever get to practice Aiki-Jujutsu, or Ju-Jutsu, you will see the similarities and family groupings between the two arts and learn how Aikido can become a "hard-style" art.
:asian:
I practice Nihon Goshin Aikido and was having the discussion with my sensei after class the other night that often times this art does seem to be a bit more of a -jutsu than a -do. This was very evident the other night during the multiple attackers lines that we were doing. I have a kenpo background and a lot of times that just kinda pops out during multiples as I will engage one uke and while sending a kick to the seconds kneecap or add in some other bit of atemi that you don't usually associate with aikido. The NGA style derives from daito ryu instead of traditional style aikido and as such may indeed be something of a misnomer as a -do vice -jutsu. I'm gonna have to dig a little deeper with some of the seniors in the art now to figure out why we went with the -do. I'm fine with others thinking the way I thought in the beginning though. I enjoy being underestimated. :)

Hey Robyn ... don't mess around with your head, if an injury causes dizzyness, something is not right.

I know, because I have been diagnosed with something called Meniere's disease, but in finding the causes of this deteriorating balance, head ringing noise, and malaise, I have let it go for way too long and now I must modify everything the moment I lose what little balance I have. It really makes it a pain to not be able to let people throw me, or do a complete technique, but it sure saves on the mileage. Sometimes is it just better to sit and watch until the injury heals before something else causes an even more severe injury.

I have had three or four MRI's and they say there is nothing in my head, or at least no disease or injured parts that can be seen in the pictures, so nerve damage and organ damage is the cause of my dilemma. Which brings to mind liver damage that might also be the cause of dizzyness, and head ringing, something overlooked in western medicine.

Don't be afraid to ask questions about all and any other causes for dizzyness. Many cases of meniere's are treated by not just diet, but by proper nutrients and additional herbs or additional vitamins, but salt seems to be a big factor, as does water retension.

As for the thread subject ... hmmm ... we usually stick with a them that uses the omote or ura versions of a technique, and if the students are not all beginners, we get some kneeling/ waza going also.

For the most part, when the beginners get some confidence in irimi/entering throws, and kokyunage/ breaththrows we move on to kotegaeshi/ wrist twist, ikikyu for beginners and nikkyu into a pin and arm bar for the more experience practitioners.

Lately though, we have been doing more Sankyo and Yonkyo, not much Gonkyo as not everbody can do the pressure points right.

Still, somehow, we work in Bokken and Jo, but that too depends on how the class is doing with safely practicing the hand to hand, but ya never know for sure when we will do five or six variations on the same technique, or just start from one position keeping a theme for the class.

Personally ... I would like to get a group together and work on the pressure point knockouts/ submissions already in Aikido but selfdom used, or known.

Anybody want to work on this aspect of Aikido hidden right out in the open?

Pressure points are something that I worked a good bit while doing kenpo but haven't seen much of in my aikido training. It may simply be that I haven't reached that stage in my training. I've used some of them that I learned during kenpo in attack lines during aikido training and they work well. Throw some info out here so that we can all enjoy it and so I can try a little bit of it out during training.

Thanks for your concern Babaker. :) I think I'm okay now. I've been back in class like normal for 2 weeks now and everything seems to be okay. I'm sorry that you have that disease!!!! It sounds like a big pain but I admire you for continuing your training! :asian:

Pressure points is something that 2 of my senseis (and another student who's a black belt in another art who knows a lot about it) has been working on trying to teach me lately. There are so many to remember so they're only starting me out with a few. I think they are neat and I like them but I need a lot more practice because I still forget exactly where they are. We do use atemis while practicing--not too hard but enough to get used to doing it with the motion and for uke to feel it. I'm trying to remember to use atemis but also to try to do them in the right (point) places that I'm working on.

There must be a good website somewhere with a pressure point diagram. I know they are books about it but I don't want to spend my money. If anybody knew of one, please post it as I would be interested in seeing it.

Robyn :asian:

There are many pressure points in Aikido.

But most schools doen't teach them, and I think it's because a lot of theacher say that Aikido should be felt, and when you put in a pressure point, the flow gets disrupted, and you have to change your technique. So in that sense you would never be able to do your basics if you do your pressure point.

But coming from Jujitsu, I find that the pressure points are easliy found. But hard to administrate.

/Yari

Hit the proper pressure point and uke will most certainly "feel" the aikido. :uhyeah: There are so many pressure points on the human body that using them in conjunction with technique should not really be a huge problem if enough time and effort is put into the idea. Manipulation of the elbow is significantly easier if you tag the pressure point along the inside bend of the elbow, so there's one. Some applications require a somewhat hard outward block to ukes punching arm, strike the radial nerve during that block and the hand can (if hit hard enough) no numb for a moment, so there's another. What others have ya'll encountered that just seem to fall into place?

Jeff

Have you ever looked at George Dillmans Pressure Point work.

In one of his tapes. I think it might be his 75 fav pressure points. He has an aikido practitioner perform a pressure point knockout.

Chicago Green Dragon

:asian:

Hit the proper pressure point and uke will most certainly "feel" the aikido. :uhyeah: There are so many pressure points on the human body that using them in conjunction with technique should not really be a huge problem if enough time and effort is put into the idea. Manipulation of the elbow is significantly easier if you tag the pressure point along the inside bend of the elbow, so there's one. Some applications require a somewhat hard outward block to ukes punching arm, strike the radial nerve during that block and the hand can (if hit hard enough) no numb for a moment, so there's another. What others have ya'll encountered that just seem to fall into place?

What other pressure points.

In Irimi-nage, pressure pints in the neck/under the ear.
There's always yonkyo, both on the wrist, or leg.

Then theres shihonage, were you can set pressure on with the tumb in the elbow.

THere are alot, one has just to remember that pressing the point has to emphesize the movement, and not work against it.

/Yari

Should the foot turn a once, or is there a slight movement forward first? Right now I believe the later....

As far as I know, you are correct. I practice it with a slight forward movement, followed by a foreward step, then the almighty tenkan.

for Technique, I am working with Ai Hanmi Katate Tori Irimi Ura Nage