I know the military has different fitness requirements for women.

Do any of your schools have different requirements? My old school used to require a different number of push-ups, and the women could do girly push-ups on their knees if they wished.

Personally, I don't like it, but I'm curious if anyone else has run into the same situation.

In my school, if you're having a hard time doing the regular push ups, then you can do the girly ones from your knees. But thats only till you get strong enough to do the normal. And the girls still have to do the same amount as the guys. No difference there.

Same in our studio- everything is the same for men as for women- same belt tests, same exercises, etc. The only difference is the knot on your belt in the ranks below black are worn on different hips!! Girly push-ups are allowed, but they want to see you doing the regular push-ups like everyone else when you can.

a school where I trained years ago would limit women to sparring women and kids; also only allow women to break half boards. Not cool at all, and something I did not follow then or now.

I believe general physical training requirements should always be tailored for the person. Hard enough to push them just beyond their limits but not soo hard to tear them down.

Also, not all body structure are the same. I would not hit someone as hard that weighs 98 pounds as someone who weighs 250 pounds. That would be silly and negligent on my part.

It's the same when I train someone for self defense. It's not so much the sex of the person, but the over all body type. The 98 pound person should not be expected to fight in the same way as the 250 pound person. Nor the 5'0" person compared to the 6'5" person. So some tayloring is need for what will work best for them.

The general requirements for rank really does not change. But each individuals methods, especially at black, are quite different.

Slight rule change we allowed when it comes to testing requirements was for a Black test that requires the tester to break three 1" thick boards with a hand strike. One of our testers was a 90 pound female. We allowed her to break it with a kick instead. Otherwise, all else was the same.

My school doesn't have physical requirements for belt tests or anything but since we're talking about pushups this kind of relates.

My school doesn't do regular pushups, or girly ones either. We spread our legs almost like you're trying to go into a side split and then lean forward and do them with out legs spread wide apart. You end up really bent at the waist and I find them almost useless. Your feet slip so you end up spending half your energy on not pulling your leg muscles instead of on the acutal pushups. It's also really easy to cheat and shift your weight back so that you hardly have any on your arms. My instructor also counts waaayyy too fast so you have no hope of doing correct pushups anyway. Anyone else ever heard of doing them this way? :confused:

The only time we do "normal" pushups is if you make head contact sparring. Then you have to do knuckle-instep pushups. They're brutal.

The only good thing I can think of is that both guys and girls do them together and everyone can do them because you tailor it to yourself a bit. If you're stronger can lean forward and put more weight on your arms. Still strange though.

did the girl who broke the board with her foot ASK to do so, or did you assume she'd want to do things the easier way?

Originally posted by Nightingale
did the girl who broke the board with her foot ASK to do so, or did you assume she'd want to do things the easier way?

She was given the option to do either. She opted for the kick. I just remembered that we had one other that was given the same option. She opted for the hand strike. We've have had 4 female black belts. Only 2 were given this option and was based on body mass.

would a man of similar size be granted the same option?

Originally posted by Nightingale
would a man of similar size be granted the same option?

Probably. If they weighed less than 110 pounds or so. There is no real hard or fast rule on it. It's a case by case thing. If it was completely up to me, I would require anyone over 220 or so to break 4 boards.

Anyway, it's only a very small part of a 6 to 8 hour test (over 2 days). The only motionless target you ever have to hit. ;)

We have had a woman teacher (54 but super fit) and a BB fourth Dan so women did exactly the same number of push-ups etc. It´s more often men teachers who think women can´t hack it.

Originally posted by Zoran
I believe general physical training requirements should always be tailored for the person. Hard enough to push them just beyond their limits but not soo hard to tear them down.


I agree. My school has physical requirements for black belt testing that are not gender specific. But I'm trying to get that changed. I have a physical fitness book from the 80's that has fitness goal charts based on sex and age. I think both are extremely important for determine what a person should be able to do. It lists achievements as Below Average, Average, etc. for different types of strength, endurance, and flexibility. I think all martial artists should at least be in the Above Average category for their sex and age, if not a little higher.

It's not that a 54-year-old woman can't knock out 50 pushups, but should all women be subjected to that standard? Should 60-year-old men have the same requirements as a 20-year-old? If so, why? What does it prove? I understand that physical requirements are important; I don't want to give a black belt to someone who can't even do a single pushup. I just don't understand making everyone adhere to a single standard.

WhiteBirch

I personally am very uncomfortable with different standards. I would certainly leave my class if I thought any allowance was made because I´m 49 and a woman. If you expect a lot of yourself you can often get it. That being said everyone kicks a different height anyway due to length of legs and flexibility. I do not believe someone who can´t do the moves should get the belt at the end of the day. My Shukokai class fell apart because one 52 year old woman pupil was treated with favoritism. She passed blue belt with only a few hours of tuition and 12 attempts at getting the kata right! She was bosom buddy of our sensei who had found she was willing to keep the classes going while she was in another country and so gave her two belts higher than she really deserved. All the adults and half the kids walked out because of it. We have now all started again with a different type of karate because there was no Shukokai available locally. Now we have a very young very athletic male teacher instead of a woman and are doing Freestyle and Shotokan because that´s what he knows. the classes are fast and furious but so far I can hack it. If I ever reach a stage where I can´t learn a kick or other move properly however hard I try then I don´t want to get the next belt for nothing.

At our Studio and at the college where we teach Kenpo, There are absolutely no different requirements for the females. The Only time we allow deviation from the norm is for a medical/or other (*phobic etc.) reason. *Have had some students who were afraid of falling, phobic about being in a chokehold(found out when they went running off in a fullblown panic attack during a class), For those type we do work with them. For All others, we all do the same warmups and there shall be no girlie pushups etc. One thing about American Kenpo is it can and is tailored to each practitioner. I have T.O.S. (Thoracic outlet syndrome) from a car accident, the nerves in my brachial plexus are damaged and hence I have problems with certain moves so I use the AK equation formula and modify the tecs for myself.
So for the Norm we keep things fair across the board.

Tess

Why are people doing pushups during a martial arts class in the first place?

Personally, anyway, I'd argue that couching questions about women and martial arts in terms of being able to do push-ups is maybe kinda beside the point...

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
Why are people doing pushups during a martial arts class in the first place?

Many schools (if not most), including mine have physical requirements because we want to 1) warm people up effectively before the workout and 2) teach people how to exercise properly.

I also feel that the martial arts is more than just learning how to kick someone's butt. To me it's about character development, artistic expression, physical fitness, and self defense. Whether for kids or adults, it's all in there somehow.

Being more physically fit helps you everyday in "self defense" against heart disease and aging problems, which are more probable to occur than a physical confrontation with someone. Can these things be done outside of class? Certainly. But many people won't do them, so I have to "encourage it" by testing against my expectations.

WhiteBirch

I agree, of course, about being physically fit. But why push-ups? Wouldn't punches, kicks, blocks, stance maneuvers, give just as good a warm-up and fit the whole martial arts paradigm a little better?

Of course, it could just be that I truly hate push-ups. But it does seem questionable to me that we'd warm students up with one of the exercises that is absolutely guaranteed to emphasize physical differences between women and men...

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
Wouldn't punches, kicks, blocks, stance maneuvers, give just as good a warm-up and fit the whole martial arts paradigm a little better?

We do those too. I typically use punching and kicking to work on cardiovascular endurance, pushups for upper-body strength, crunches and back extensions for core strength, and stance work for lower-body strength. I also throw in stretching for flexibility. IMO, it's a well-rounded routine to get them sweating and improve their current condition. People are always happy to see the improvements in their every-day lives (such as feeling less tired during the day or less winded after climbing a flight of stairs).

I think requirements should be a little tailored. For example what do you do with someone who lost an arm or is in a wheel-chair? Do they have the same requirements as everyone else? I doubt it. "Things" would have to be tailored for what they *can* accomplish while making it difficult for them *to* accomplish. Doesn't the same thing apply to women vs. men?

WhiteBirch

buffy says, "beer good, tree pretty"

pete says, "push-ups good, let's get the heck out of the women's forum before its too late"

last one back to caveman central is buyin'
:D

I find pushups work great for developing upper body strength, also it's a perfect way to keep those pecs nice and tight ;)
And we all know what the pecs do for women ..
Makes for a much stronger punch too, and we do punching drills and that works us out Cardio wise nicely.

I hate the idea of different reguirements. Particarly on the basis of gender. Being a woman does not make you weaker then a man, you might have to work harder at something but you can achieve what a guy can. I will be testing in a week and I am determined to do everything the same including the same number of pushups. I have been working on pushups since october and I am around 50 "normal" pushups, girly pushups aren't really allowed in my school. Furthermore pushups increase upper body strength thus your punches will be stronger. Furthermore most requirements are just tailored for women there are no lesser requirements for man like splits, because women have better hips to do such. It is the same system and regardless of gender, in fact I have done everything a man has, including breaking mulitple bricks, and if you don;t have the same requirments, then have you really earned that belt?? Don;t make excuses why you can;t do something, just work harder.

Originally posted by elcajon555
I hate the idea of different reguirements. Particarly on the basis of gender.

There are differences. Women have a whole different spectrum of self defense situations to deal with that a man may never have to even contiplate. I don't expect a woman to fight like a man. Just as I don't expect a 140 pound man to fight like a 250 pound man.

The requirements are the same. Find a solution to survive a self defense situation. However, the method is, and should be, different from person to person as we all have unique strengths and weaknesses.

Different requirements does not mean easier. It just means something that may be tailored to realistically fit the individual. In some cases, this may be harder.

By different requirements I meant that to get to another belt level women have to only do 20 pushups while men have to do 40 pushups. And in my school we use plastic boards and the boards are divided up in 4-7 year olds, women and children boards and men boards. I think it should be 4-7 year olds, children boards and adult boards. Yes it may be harder for a 120 lb woman to break then a 200 lb man but it is not impossible and it is the same playing field which is how it should be. Also when people talk about people not fighting the same, that is not different requirements, but different fighting styles that are unqiue to the individual. I think that when testing or doing workouts in class everyone should be treated the same and it not made easier just because the person is a woman or smaller, because everyone has strenghts and weaknesses and what is hard for a woman or smaller person is easier for a man and bigger person, but then when the women and smaller people have an easy time with something then the man and larger people have a harder time with it. And because of the strenghts and weaknesses everyone as, in a standard class everyone will find things hard and easy, it will just be different per person. It is the same art therefore it should be the same for the person.

so what I'm getting out of this is:

its okay to make modifications to account for individual differences in strength or stamina or body type. It is not okay to define requirements solely on gender.

Originally posted by Nightingale
so what I'm getting out of this is:

its okay to make modifications to account for individual differences in strength or stamina or body type. It is not okay to define requirements solely on gender.

Yep. Gender should NOT be a factor. Physical differences should and some modifications to physical challenges may not only be a good idea, but a necessity for safety reasons.

But such hard and fast rules, such as women only needing 20 push up while men need 40, is just silly.

Originally posted by Zoran
But such hard and fast rules, such as women only needing 20 push up while men need 40, is just silly.

To me it's just as silly to say you have to do 40 pushups. Why not 30 or 50? It's because someone thought about it for a moment and said, "ya know, 40 pushups is pretty hard, so let's make 'em do it."

If you set a particular limit that everyone must abide by, it almost feels like the game's rigged for men. Especially when in the long run it doesn't matter if you hit a specific number or not. It's whether you're considered "physically fit" enough to warrent the belt.

IMO, it's better to look at statistical tables established by fitness centers (such as Cooper's or ACMA) which determine the number based on the abilities of the general public. Their charts would say that a person of this gender and age should be able to do X pushups to be classified as "Above Average" or "Fit" or whatever category you want. The figure is then more reasonably accurate for most of the population and would only have to be adjusted for the "uncommon few" that have physical limitations. Then you can say that my black belts have to meet the physical requirements to be considered "Above Average."

Otherwise you'll get into a very subjective argument with every individual. "Why does he only have to do 20?..."

WhiteBirch

I hate that rule in my school about the 20 pushups and 40 pushups, that is why I have worked to get around 50 pushups/ In smaller schools you can have a more tailored workout and requirments for the individual but in a larger school it is harder to do that, this is why I think that everyone should do the same thing, by age 4-7 year olds, children and adult

Originally posted by lvwhitebir
If you set a particular limit that everyone must abide by, it almost feels like the game's rigged for men.


In some schools, it still is.

Especially when in the long run it doesn't matter if you hit a specific number or not.

I agree, thats why our school does not have physical strength requirements, such as pushups.

It's whether you're considered "physically fit" enough to warrent the belt.

Again, I agree. But it all depends on the system and the instructor. For example; a self defense orientated school may have a completely different view of "physically fit" compared to a sport orientated school.

Seems sensible to me.

However, wouldn't it make a lot of sense, too, to just limit martial arts requirements to martial arts stuff? In kenpo, for example, why not just demand certain forms, sets, basics, techniques, sparring, out orf the different belt levels? Then, the whole issue becomes kinda irrelevant...which, in terms of how many push-ups one can do, I'd argue it should be.

I was also taught in a fashion that relied on the idea that if you could get through a solid group class, if you could run all the forms you know hard twice inone go-round, your physical fitness was there...

yep, like Tess said, no difference at the studio.

my OLD karate school (in Delaware) gave out patches for whoever could do the most pushups, sit ups, and when you could do a split...and of course, they were seperated by gender.

...in highschool (or middleschool) however, girls could do girly pushups and never really had to do anything in the weight room...but the instructor did like to watch us when we changed out of our uniforms *twitch* ...and she and the other teacher liked to make us do the macarena....MEN CANNOT DO THIS! ...at least hs men...

...but in highschool, only 1 semester gym/health combined :D

Why are people doing pushups during a martial arts class in the first place?

Personally, anyway, I'd argue that couching questions about women and martial arts in terms of being able to do push-ups is maybe kinda beside the point...
I've got to agree with that. The school I started in had calesthenics in the group class, but the group class was tailored as an overall work out, not as a lesson in martial arts. Testing was based solely on being able to perform the techniques learned <albeit without a partner> and on doing forms.

When I'm in class, I'm there to learn, not do push ups or jump rope. I can do that stuff on my own time if I choose to do so. For every push done in class, that's time that could have been spent practicing application, or doing valuable drills..or even sitting in a horse stance..which is not only essential to good martial arts, it is one heck of a exercise. JMO

But pushups and using a jump rope a valuble execrises. In my school we do different types of pushups that help with different areas and in general pushups help with strength. We do pushups on our knuckles which will make the wrists and knuckles stronger which is better for punching. We do finger tip pushups which strengthens the fingers for gripping and other self defense. We do various sets of pushups that strengthen the upper body. And all this helps with strength and punching. To say pushups have no application is to say stretching has no application, I mean people can stretch at home if they wish why do stretching in class. Futhermore using a jump rope is a good endurance work out it increases your stamina and so forth. We do alot of different workouts that increase stamina and endurance like various forms of relays(like running hoping jumping increasing leg muscle). Drills designed for strength and endurance are just as important if not more so important then the actual technigues. I mean you can have the techniques and stradegies, but if you have no strength, power and endurance understanding and knowing the tecnigues does not do a whole lot.

But pushups and using a jump rope a valuble execrises. In my school we do different types of pushups that help with different areas and in general pushups help with strength. We do pushups on our knuckles which will make the wrists and knuckles stronger which is better for punching. We do finger tip pushups which strengthens the fingers for gripping and other self defense. We do various sets of pushups that strengthen the upper body. And all this helps with strength and punching. To say pushups have no application is to say stretching has no application, I mean people can stretch at home if they wish why do stretching in class. Futhermore using a jump rope is a good endurance work out it increases your stamina and so forth. We do alot of different workouts that increase stamina and endurance like various forms of relays(like running hoping jumping increasing leg muscle). Drills designed for strength and endurance are just as important if not more so important then the actual technigues. I mean you can have the techniques and stradegies, but if you have no strength, power and endurance understanding and knowing the tecnigues does not do a whole lot.

We do these things too in our dojo for the same reasoning. If the physical body is stronger and has stamina, then the martial artist is able to do techniques and forms better.

Unfortunately, in some styles. there are some students who do not do additional physical training besides what they get from their martial arts training. Doing these in classes for at least a few minutes would certainly be in their favor.

We do need to acknowledge there are different types of martial artists withh different reasons for taking up their styles. Some will be very proactive with their own out-of-class training; some may simply be into martial arts just because its fun and do the bare minimum required.

- Ceicei

However, the original thread was asking why standards for women differ from those for men.

They shouldn't. I think each person should compare their own strength/endurance against themselves, not each other. Saying men needs to do 40 and women do 20 is preposterous. Even among men, they aren't alike. Neither among women.

If a class needs to do push ups, jump ropes, etc., then fine. But they shouldn't be in competition with each other. Each individual can work on bettering their previous counts. Each increases their own strength and endurance. No one would ever be exactly like another. We can only become the best each of us can be. We work on getting the martial art to fit our needs, not us to fit the martial art.

That is the philosophy taught in my dojo and I agree with it.

- Ceicei

We do these things too in our dojo for the same reasoning. If the physical body is stronger and has stamina, then the martial artist is able to do techniques and forms better.

Unfortunately, in some styles. there are some students who do not do additional physical training besides what they get from their martial arts training. Doing these in classes for at least a few minutes would certainly be in their favor.

We do need to acknowledge there are different types of martial artists withh different reasons for taking up their styles. Some will be very proactive with their own out-of-class training; some may simply be into martial arts just because its fun and do the bare minimum required.

- Ceicei
Hung Gar has physical endurance and strength training built right into the forms. Gung Gee Fook Fu, when done properly takes approximately 5 to 8 minutes to complete. Iron wire form is very intense and can take up to 20 minutes. We use dynamic tension to build muscle, and believe me, we sweat our behinds off doing these forms. We also do drills with a resisting partner which increases the intensity of the drill and helps with body conditioning.
Our classes are 90 min long, and are by no means easy.
I prefer this type of class, but that is just my personal preference. I guess this is why I stick with Hung Gar, rather than some other style. To each their own, and one is no more valid than the other.


As an aside, I also enjoy lifting weights and doing cardio at my gym on my own time. :) Physical fitness certainly enhances my ability in the martial arts but again...I can do that outside of my martial arts class.

When I joined my school, we did 100-100-100 for warm-ups, that is 100 push-ups, 100 sit-ups or crunches, and 100 jumping jacks. As the class participants ranged from 13 year old kids to 70+, I know that few people pushed themselves to the full counts - with correct form and effort. Few people pushed themselved to do the maximum they could do, even if it was under the count. Since then, our instructor has cut back to an average of 50-50-50 - people still have issues with that lower limit.

Having been a couch potato before taking Kempo, the expectation of having to do 100-100-100 helped push me to become more active and more fit. Nothing like having a hurdle to get over! Now that I have additional fitness programs, I would rather spend more class time on the material. However, I appreciate the motivation that the 100-100-100 gave at the beginning.

I don't have a problem with the requirements being the same for men and women. As long as the expectations are set, people can train to meet them - except where medical and psychological issues interfere. However, I do think people need to be aware of what their limits are in training to that point. I know I went pretty gung-ho on the whole push-up thing and managed to mangle up my rotator cuff somehow. Knowing what I know now from having gone through PT, doctors, and quite a bit of reading, I would definately taken a different approach to building upper body strength! :rolleyes:

Regards,
- Sheryl

Back to pushups...have y'all ever seen a Hindu pushup? Dang man, those suck (can I use that word here? I'm sorry if not) and we are supposed to do them on our fingertips. I asked if I could work up to fingertips (holding up my body weight is tough on this old fat girl)...of course, Sifu said no. We don't get any special treatment for being female. And I agree, that's the way it should be. No special requirements, no special treatment, no competition.

I've come to realize that self-defense (although I never did it for that reason to begin with) isn't about defending myself against the jerk on the street. It's about overcoming myself. I am my own worst enemy. That was slightly off topic...sorry.

In our Wah Lum school we have no physical requirements because everyone is different.

People come in for different reasons - a work out, to learn kung fu, to train to compete... whatever.

So all that's asked of us to advance in "levels" (we dont really have a ranking system) is that we learn the forms and do them properly. We're beating ourselves into shape doing these exercises so doing insane amounts of pushups and the like is just pointless. We do pushups, only about 10 a class though. And we sometimes do aerobics. Twisties, crunches, fishies, and this thing where you have to grab your partners ankles and kick your legs up (laying on your back) and they push them back down and you have to bring them back up. After about 15 it gets hard :P

Women and Men do the exact same thing. As much as they can. Which is how it honestly should be. If you can't handle it - slow down.

Our school has the same requirements for both genders. I do think it's a good point that there should be consideration for advanced age or disability, assuming that you're performing the best YOU can do.

In my mind, a more important issue than gender or age is weight. I routinely grapple men who outweigh me by 60-80 lbs. Should I be expected to "win," or just do a good job staying alive? In this situation, I rarely "win." Of course, I never lose :-)

In our Taekwondo school, we are required to do our max. White belts are asked to do 50 split pushups, many can't but are pushed to do as many as posslble. Black belts are required to do 50 regular pushups -men and women. Sometimes a medical condition will allow different testing requirements. For ex: a young man who had been in a car accident, lost inner ear stabiity so could not spin to do a jump spin heel break, was allowed to do a side jump heel kick instead. But usually guys have a hard time with forms at tests but are passed. Women have a hard time with breaking especially the jumping ones. Women have a different body structure-not built for upper body strength, abs, bones etc. I think it is harder for women to pass the jumping breaks, break concrete than it is for men to pass forms with proficiency. At least that is the way in our school.
It is not exactly fair for women unless we have requirements that take in to account women's abilities and weaknesses. For me, I have a really unstable knee but I get no allowances for that for my test. Also, masters who are guys have different viewpoints than say a woman master would.
Been there done that you know?

In our organization, except for the fact that male black belts are not encouraged to contact the women strong in sparring (unless the women don't mind), the women are expected to perform as well as everyone else. We make no allowances based on gender, only on physical ability. You are expected to push yourself as far as you feel comfortable. On the other hand, women are encouraged to contact the men in free fighting. Guys are only allowed to outfight women through non-contact means (better footwork, body positioning, distance etc.)

Hi, I'm new here, but I noticed this thread and wanted to post...My teacher expects everyone, regardless of age, ability, gender, etctera, to do their best and to push themselves.

On the issue of push-ups, one of our female black belts was told she could no longer do push-ups from a regular position because it puts a strain on the lower abdominals and pulls organs down and forward - she experienced a prolapsed uterus and had to have a hysterectomy with a bladder hammock and rectal reinforcement...she was told standard pushups for a woman "her age" (40s) were out of the question, but she could do them from her knees or do fully reclined bench press with free weights. dunno about the logic of this....

Anyway, I think everyone should push themselves at their level and much emphasis should be on this in the dojang/dojo for everyone since so many walks of life come to train. What do you folks think?

I think this is a matter of an individual health problem rather than age as I do ordinary push-ups and I´m nearly 50. I should imagine a man with a hernia would also be told to lay off them.