Why Hwarang Do is not Hapkido

[Hwarang]

Why Hwarang Do is not Hapkido - aka a history of the modern Korean martial arts

This text is probably too long for most people to bother reading, but I have to take it step-by-step, otherwise the Korean MA history does not make sence. So here goes.

First of all there are a few ground rules we have to agree on:

1) GM Choi Yong Sul did not teach Hapkido, he taught "Yawara", sometimes called by the full name "Daetong Ryu Yusul" which is the Korean pronounciation of "Daito Ryu Aikijutsu". He did not use the name Hapkido until very, very late (~1968). His original students learned "Yawara" from him, not "Hapkido"

2) The original masters who trained under Choi Yong Sul trained privately (they did not know who else trained there), they came with different previous martial arts experience, and did not learn the same things from GM Choi. He did not have a formal school and he simply taught what he felt like.

3) This also means that "Hapkido" "back in the old days" was NOT one original style. People used the name for many different (also technically different) styles from the start.
Different lineages, different concepts, different arts - same name.

4) At first there were very, very few martial arts schools in Korea.
There were very, very few masters at first, it was not until the mid 60s that the number of masters, schools and styles suddenly increased. Therefore the original masters certainly knew each other and their background, whereas later masters might only know their own master(s).

This is basic stuff, without knowing this there is no way of understanding the history and development. If you disagree with any of the above you are certainly welcome to bring it up though.


Let's make a timeline, I suggest:
1. MA in Korea before Yawara influence
2. Yawara
3. The early styles
4. "Hapkido"
5. Unification attempts
6. Final breakup
7. Continious development


1.period: MA in Korea before the Yawara influence
What martial arts were in Korea after World War2?
During the Japanese occupation Kendo (Kumdo) and Judo (Yudo) were certainly taught in Korea. GM Choi Yong Sul trained Yawara (Yusul), or full name "Daito Ryu Aikijitsu" (Taedong Ryu Yusul) in Japan and brought it to Korea. Among the millions of Koreans who were in Japan others are likely to have trained martial art. Koreans serving in the Japanese army whould probably have trained JuJutsu(?) and we know many trained Karate.
Korean monks still today train martial arts, and are known throughout Korean history to have trained martial arts.
The Chinese minority in Korea are likely, as Chinese in other countries, to train martial arts. There is a large Korean minority in Manchuria, which also were occupied by the Japanese. So there were definitly martial arts in Korea.
The whole idea that Korea, as the only country in Asia, did not have any MA (Thailand, Laos, Malaysia, India, the Philipines, Japan, China etc certainly do) seems strange to me.

2.period: Yawara influence
Everybody agrees, according to ground rule #1, that GM Choi Yong Sul taught Yawara, not Hapkido. It seems that everyone with a background in Korean MA - who could afford it - went to Taegu and trained under him. Some trained for a long time, some for a short time but all the original masters were there.
My personal guess is that GM Choi became famous in Korea, and everyone who were already training some form of martial art wanted to see what he was doing. People who were interested in MA, but hadn't trained before also went, probably because they had heard about him.
This often happens in Korea - something gets popular and soon everybody does it, or would like to do it. It's a very homogenious country.
There were probably also others (very few) who taught other Japanese styles, but these were much less influencial, and are only interesting when documenting their lineages.

3.period: The early styles are taught
In the late 50ies and early 60ies the early masters started teaching (for instance GM Lee: Hwarang Do, GM Ji: Yusul, Suh Bok Sup: Yu Kwon Sul). Shortly after, people started using the Hapkido name. There are many stories about who started using the name, for now the interesting part is that 'Hapkido' was used *after* the other names were used.

4.Period: the "Hapkido" name is used
So as it often happens in Korea something spreads and very soon everybody does it. From ~1961 all Korean (non-"Taekwondo") martial arts used the Hapkido name to describe their styles. People were still doing their own thing as they had from the beginning (teaching their own styles), they just used the Hapkido name as a common identifier - ground rule #3 (maybe as in America "Karate" can mean any MA?).
Some people, like GM Joo Bang Lee, had extensive previous MA experience before training Yawara, other started with Yawara, but they all learned different things from GM Choi. They took their knowledge and taught their individual styles, Hanpul taught Hanpul, Hwarang Do taught Hwarang Do, Seong Mu Kwan taught Seong Mu Kwan. And they all also used the Hapkido name.

5.period: Unification attempts are made
As ground rule # 4 says - during the 60s the number of schools and masters drastically increased and some attempts to unify the schools were made. In 1965 'Taekwondo' was unified and recieved strong goverment backing, and after this several attempts to do the same with the many different styles using the 'Hapkido' name were made.
But where the different Karate styles were relatively easy to combine, this was not the case for 'Hapkido', which of course where very different styles from the start. And for this, and other, maninly political reasons, it was impossible to unify the 'Hapkido' styles.

6. Final breakup
In 1968 GM Joo Bang Lee had enough. He had been a founding member of the Kido Hwe, had been promoting both the HanKUK MuSOOL HyupHWE (Kuk Sool Hwe) and the big unification drive in 1967-68 and now he said stop. He dropped all ranks and started from the bottom, swearing never to use the Hapkido name. He built Hwarang Do in Korea from 1968 and when he left Korea for America in 1972 there were 68 Hwarang Do schools in Korea (16 in Seoul).
Many people in 'Hapkido' would certainly have prefered GM Lee to work for them, but after promoting and using the 'Hapkido' name together with the Hwarang Do name for 7-8 years (1961-1968) he has never since used the name, and he has never since promoted himself as a 'Hapkido' grandmaster. Eventhough he received the highest ranking in HKD by GM Choi.

7.period: Continious development
GM Lee has continued to develop Hwarang Do for 35 years and the various 'Hapkido' styles have developed in their separate directions.
Today there is not *a* style called Hapkido, there never were, and there never will be. The styles are just too different.

---

We can try another way - why do people say Hwarang Do is a Hapkido style?
a.k.a. I've heard that GM Joo Bang Lee taught Hapkido, is that true?

Answer: Yes, sure, absolutely true but! - and the but! is important.

GM Lee opened his first Hwarang Dojang in 1960, this was before anyone used the Hapkido name in Korea. If he was teaching before the Hapkido name was used, how can it be a Hapkido style?
From ~1961 to ~68, that is 7 years, GM Lee used the Hapkido name together with Hwarang Do. During the last 36 years he has not used the Hapkido name. Is it a Hapkido style then? Is Tugong Musool a Hapkido style?

Please understand that if GM Lee wanted he COULD promote himself as a senior Hapkido Grandmaster, together with GM Ji he WAS the higest ranking master at the time. But he does not. In 1968 he had enough of the politics and went his own way.
Eventhough he had been promoting the Hapkido name he dropped all ranks and started from the bottom with his own style. He swore not to take advantage of the Hapkido name and left it for the people who wanted to use it.
So to put it nicely, for people to call Hwarang Do a Hapkido style is to pi** both on his work and on his influence on the Korean martial arts.


Q and A:
Q. GM Joo Bang Lee trained under GM Choi?
A. GM Choi taught Yawara, not Hapkido

Q. Why do you keep it secret that GM Lee trained under GM Choi?
A. It was never a secret. Why would you keep it secret, and how could you? There are thousands of Koreans who knows GM Lee as one of the leaders of "Hapkido".
GM Lee left the name with the 'Hapkido' people in 1968 because he was tired of the politics, and he has *never* used 'Hapkido' to promote neither himself nor Hwarang Do. However, he has *always* said he had two teachers when you talked with him (the monk Suam Dosa and GM Choi (Yawara)). It is in writing in Dojang Magazine (1995) : http://www.hwarangdo.com/dojang1.htm, in the 2000 Black Belt articles and on hwarangdo.com

Q. OK, but why did GM Lee not write anywhere that he also learned Hapkido from GM Choi?
A. GM Choi did not teach Hapkido, and the 'Hapkido' people were promoting their various styles as an ancient Korean martial art.
Why should GM Lee destroy their stories by telling people about Yawara?

Q. My master says/I have heard/I have read that Master XYZ says he taught GM Joo Bang Lee
A. People promote themselves, things gets lost in translation, things are misunderstood. I will say this though: If your master claims that he taught GM Joo Bang Lee please do me a favor. Politely let him know that I am a student of GM Lee and I'll be happy to let GM Lee know that the person said he taught GM Lee. Please make sure the person understands that this is a public request.


Disclaimer: This was written in 4 hours, there might be errors - let me know.
Please see http://www.hwarangdo.com/hrd2.htm for details, there is a lot more information than you think.

Carsten Jorgensen
cj@hwarangdo.dk

[mtabone]

Sir, you wrote:

4.Period: the "Hapkido" name is used
So as it often happens in Korea something spreads and very soon everybody does it. From ~1961 all Korean (non-"Taekwondo") martial arts used the Hapkido name to describe their styles. People were still doing their own thing as they had from the beginning (teaching their own styles), they just used the Hapkido name as a common identifier - ground rule #3 (maybe as in America "Karate" can mean any MA?).
Some people, like GM Joo Bang Lee, had extensive previous MA experience before training Yawara, other started with Yawara, but they all learned different things from GM Choi. They took their knowledge and taught their individual styles, Hanpul taught Hanpul, Hwarang Do taught Hwarang Do, Seong Mu Kwan taught Seong Mu Kwan. And they all also used the Hapkido name.

Not all Non taekwondo used the name hapkido. For one :
Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan, Under KwanJangNim Hwang Kee.

M.Tabone

[glad2bhere]

Dear Carsten:

I must say that what you have written makes perfect sense to me and pretty much confirms everything that most people have been saying.

1.) GM Lee started out with connections with other Hapkido arts people and had a falling out.

2.) He went on to organize his own take on grappling material and eschews the use of the "hapkido" label.

3.) GM Lees' material is a mix of what he learned from Suahm Dosa and Choi the way that Ji's material is a mix of Taek kyon and Choi, the way Seos' is a mix of Praying Mantis and Choi and so forth.

4.) Me, personally, the use of the label "hapkido" does not necessarily bespeak a lineal relationship with Ji and everyone else. It is now a generic term that people use to identify a Korean grappling curriculum. Maybe GM Lee doesn't care for the label but I'm not surprised to see others use it to identify what he does whether he likes it or not. For myself I simply don't see any meaningful difference between the way that HwaRangDo folks do many techniques and the Kuk Sool Won people do the same techniques. The differences are a bit more distinct between HwaRangDo and Sin Moo or Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[dohap]

old tapes from Korea show very clearly:
techniques of JBLee are a little bit different, more fluid, but it is still Hapkido. Other Masters move like "hard" sort of Hapkido. Only sword forms are more fluid, maybe they came from Suahm Dosa.
Carsten can say what he wants to, but empty hands are Hapkido.
Differences are coming from the man, not from the style. Please notice what I wrote in the beginning: JBLee's techniques vere different than other masters', so that's the reason.

[glad2bhere]

I think we should continue this string and wrestle this to its end. I am concerned that if we stop discussing this issue now we only do what has been done too many times in the past--- that is---- drag out all the pieces but never put them together.

If JB Lee represents some pre-Occupation tradition then I think that it needs to be documented what that tradition was, where it came from and how it got here. So far we have only Carstens' information telling us what it is "not". OK--- so lets tease out all of the HKD/Choi tradition and see what we have left. Where did that come from? What documents support these assertions? I don't think anyone is denying that the HwaRang existed. Where is the documentation that what is practiced today is what was practiced, say, 300 years ago? From what I can tell researching back and forth across these various arts, different people have mixed in traditions from various places. GM Ji stirred in material from his life experiences, and GM Lee stirred in material from his life experiences. GM Kim did the same and so forth. However, it seems that the greatest amount of physical training (the "stock" for the soup so to speak) appears to have come from GM Chois material. Now, to my way of thinking is various people want to profess various takes on GM CHois' material thats fine. The generic term for it has become "hapkido" for better or worse. Even hapkiyusool and hapkiyukwonsul people seem willing to endure this small misrepresentation. If Lee wants to call his form "HwaRang" he might consider calling it "HwaRang Hapkido". It would not make him beholding to anyone else and it would honor his teacher, Choi, where Suahm Doas apparently didn't care. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[dohap]

This You'll never know:(
HRD is coming from 3 roots: Choi, some kind of kicking-punching and old weapons. Saying 3 roots I don't mean 3 teachers, rather 3 parts of it. I don't count all ki stuff, this for sure came from Suahm Dosa.
So: where kicks came from? where the weapons came from?
punches and blocks are common and at early stage looked like karate (early tkd).
Some sword stuff is just like kumdo, but JBLee says his father was kendoist. The rest of weapons looks like mix of Korean and Chinese. I heard a story they came from In Hyuk Suh, but who knows... maybe some of his students?

[arnisador]

Originally posted by dohap
techniques of JBLee are a little bit different, more fluid, but it is still Hapkido.

This is basically my belief--the core of HRD is HKD. Obviously, other stuff has been added.

[Hwarang]

M.Tabone:
>> Not all Non taekwondo used the name hapkido. For one : Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan, Under KwanJangNim Hwang Kee <<

You are certainly right. I could have made it more clear by writing "the styles whose founders trained Karate" or something similar. If I have to write it again I'll make it more clear.

Bruce:
>> I must say that what you have written makes perfect sense to me and pretty much confirms everything that most people have been saying. <<

How is my text different from the articles in Black Belt Magazines and on hwarangdo.com ??? It it different from what I've posted to you over the last 5-6 years?

>> For myself I simply don't see any meaningful difference between the way that HwaRangDo folks do many techniques and the Kuk Sool Won people do the same techniques. The differences are a bit more distinct between HwaRangDo and Sin Moo or Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido. <<

Of course Sin Moo/Yon Mu are more different since it's a completely different lineage than Hwarang Do and Kuk Sool Won, so they don't have the same series of techniques from the Kuk Sool Hwe.
I don't know what you know about Hwarang Do, have you trained with any one in Hwarang Do/Kuk Sool Won?
I can only speak from actually training Hwarang Do and training with people in Kuk Sool Won and seeing a couple of GM Suh's videos, and I would say that the "similar" techniques are executed very differently. But you say you don't see any differences?

Dohap:
>> Carsten can say what he wants to, but empty hands are Hapkido. <<

Ehhh - is there anything in the history above you actually disagrees with? Or are you saying "it's Hapkido because Dohap says so"?

Bruce:
>> If Lee wants to call his form "HwaRang" he might consider calling it "HwaRang Hapkido". It would not make him beholding to anyone else and it would honor his teacher, Choi, where Suahm Doas apparently didn't care. FWIW.<<

GM Choi taught Yawara, how would GM Lee honor Choi by calling it Hapkido? GM Lee dropped all ranks in 1968 after a few years and has never since used the names to promote himself or Hwarang Do. Why should he call it Hapkido - to make you happy? Because more people today train various styles of 'Hapkido' than Hwarang?
BTW, GM Choi did not like the name Hapkido because it comes from Aikido. That's why he didn't use the name until late in the 60ies. How about you change the name of your school to Midwest Yawara to honor the roots of your art? Maybe all Hapkido styles should change the name to 'Hapkido Yawara' to honor the origin?

Oh - no, I know. "Karate" is a generic term for MA in America, how about you call your style "Midwest Karate", then everybody knows what style we're talking about!

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by mtabone
Sir, you wrote:

4.Period: the "Hapkido" name is used
So as it often happens in Korea something spreads and very soon everybody does it. From ~1961 all Korean (non-"Taekwondo") martial arts used the Hapkido name to describe their styles. People were still doing their own thing as they had from the beginning (teaching their own styles), they just used the Hapkido name as a common identifier - ground rule #3 (maybe as in America "Karate" can mean any MA?).
Some people, like GM Joo Bang Lee, had extensive previous MA experience before training Yawara, other started with Yawara, but they all learned different things from GM Choi. They took their knowledge and taught their individual styles, Hanpul taught Hanpul, Hwarang Do taught Hwarang Do, Seong Mu Kwan taught Seong Mu Kwan. And they all also used the Hapkido name.

Not all Non taekwondo used the name hapkido. For one :
Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan, Under KwanJangNim Hwang Kee.

M.Tabone


Mr Tabone,

Do you train in Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan?

Thanks

[glad2bhere]

Dear Carsten:

This isn't going to go anywhere if you simply evade giving specifics.

This really isn't rocket science. I cite an article and you say the article is wrong. I quote from JBL and you say I am misunderstanding. Lets take a look one more time. The source is BLACK BELT magazine 2000 issues for Sept, Oct and Nov.)

September, 2000

a.) JBL characterizes the Hwa Rang warriors and reports that they studied "under masters who taught them a vast curriculum". Fine. How does he know this? There are no records of the time and scholars are unable to even agree on what the HwaRang were. He lists a paragraph of options and ending with "108 weapons". What is his source?

b.) He also reports that they learned traditional medicine. What is his source?

c.) JBL identifies the founder of the Yi Dynasty as "Hwa Rang General Yi, Sung-gyi". What is his source for this?

d.) JBL states that "many of the HwaRang fled to the mountains and remote areas of Korea." Fine. In a land where people were required to have registration in various areas where are the documents showing that hermits resided in these areas. And if these people were in isolated hermitages deep in the mountains how could they sustain sufficient cohesion to the community in order to maintain the integrity of the organization?

October, 2000

a.) JBL says that his master was the 57th generation heir to a particular lineage of of HwaRang training handed down from the Silla period. I would like to know the names of heirs #56, #55, #54 and #53.

b.) JBL states that he started his training with his father who studied Judo and Kendo, and THEN he was brought to a monastery to study--- at the age of 4 --- in 1942 which means he was born in 1938, yes? There was a relocation in 1948 and then training became less frequent after a move in 1950. So from the age of 4 until the age of 12 these two kids wwere learning complex pshco-motor skills from 5am until well into the evening including sophisticated healing methods.He also states that there were 260 categories of 4,000 techniques and 108 traditional weapons in 20 categories. Where is this material recorded? He might know such material NOW but where is the evidence sucha monk knew all of this information or that children are capable of retaining and recalling such a curriculum?

c.) Since, by his statement "I inherited the HwaRang Combat system which was called Um-Yang Kwon", and his statement ("Remember hwa rang do as a martial art name did not exist 2,000 years ago. I founded the name to identify this new martial art in 1960.") perhaps you can explain just what it is that JBL would have us believe that he teaches. If he teaches Um-Yang Kwon who else of this lineage of tradition also practices Um-Yang Kwon? If there have been 57 inheritors there should be quite a range of practitioners, yes? Who else practices this art?

Finally, if everything JBL says about his art is true why does he not reside in Korea and teach his art foremost to his own culture? Why is he not granted status as as an "intangible treasure" as was done with the last two living Taek Kyon masters before their death?

I think this should probably be a good start.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[arnisador]

See also:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12094

[Hwarang]

The text on Suam Dosa is posted:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=ad&threadid=12393

If you could read the new post and repost the questions you think I’m not covering I think we'll have a much better base for discussing this!

[dohap]

OK, I have nothing against this nice story, but:
1. You still evade the question who was 55th, 45th and so on
2. in fact JBLee told this history a little bit different in His books..but in fact I like more this new versions. In my opinion if He started with this story 30 years ago nobody would seek for mistakes now.
3. so there was only ONE um-yang kwon master in whole Korea? Living far north? and others?
4. if there always was ONLY ONE um-yang kwon master, who was his dummy for trainings? if there was any, he also should be at high level.
If NOT, where are the others?
5. history tells us that "secret", "father-to-son" styles are always weeker. Simple not so many opportunities to check and invent new stuff.
6. and the last for now: was Suahm Dosa teaching forms????
(I know, it's my favourite...)

[dohap]

one more..
monk got a book, but they couldn't bring it...
so they were not learning ancestors by heart? strange.

[dohap]

"[that made Him] the Supreme Grand Master of Hwarangdo IN AN UNBROKEN LINE OF SUCCESSION LASTING OVER 1800 YEARS..."

There is a difference between "passing down the techniques" and " being inheritor and GM in UNBROKEN line", don't You think?

Also the story changed. Show me anything about Choi Yong Sul in any printing of "The Ancient...".

[arnisador]

"[that made Him] the Supreme Grand Master of Hwarangdo IN AN UNBROKEN LINE OF SUCCESSION LASTING OVER 1800 YEARS..."

Of course, this is surely hyperbole...to be kind.

[shadow warrior]

Very kind indeed. That is a LONG time!

Anyone who has trained under a number of Korean Masters who were part of the Korean martial landscape in the early 1960's knows that there are MANY, MANY, (countless) versions of that political time frame. The climate of clashes, giant egos and status seekers was everywhere.

It is an error to rely on ANY single Master as "the" source of facts in these matters no matter what Korean 'style' they represent..

Many of these diverse Masters contributed ideas and techniques to the ongoing flow of Korean Martial Arts. Who introduced what to whom and who can claim origins is just a shell game. Techniques flowed from the past, were seen, witnessed, changed and formed into different "systems".

The one thing which can not be denied is that Hwarang Do certainly does have some fancy dobooks and nice coloured belts! The internal control over the system has been called "cult like" in some circles, particularly by some who have defected from the organization (Duggan for one).

No person today in one lifetime could "MASTER" 108 weapons..for one thing you would have to kill a few hundred people in real combat just to be considered 'good'! There is a universe of distance between practicing a weapon and using against another expert. Who by the way would take your life if he could! Although there were some 'live blade' demos in the early 60's, there were only a few confrontations with weapons documented!

IMO JBL just wanted to start his own organization..no different than any of the other Korean Masters who left Korea to pursue the golden goose outside their own country... when they had a chance to do so...

Are the root techniques of Hapkido fighting skill sets that much different then Hwarang Do? Not that I can see..many similarities..including some interesting rare kicking mechanics..IMO

[mtabone]

Hello Rich Parsons,

Sorry I did not respond to you question earlier. I used to train in Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan, back in '95. Now though I am Tang Soo Do Mi Guk Kwan.

Again, I appologize for not getting to answere you sooner.

Respectfully,
M.Tabone

[Traditionalist]

This is basically my belief--the core of HRD is HKD. Obviously, other stuff has been added.
I agree. I personally think it was just people that couldn't do HKD so they made up HRD

[shesulsa]

I agree. I personally think it was just people that couldn't do HKD so they made up HRD
That's a strong statement. DJN JBL was an 8th Dan (I believe) in HKD. It is my understanding that no one who has ever been on the receiving end of his joint locks has ever walked away painless. I think ... he could probably "do hapkido." :)

[miguksaram]

JBL was an 8th dan in HKD? Who promoted him? When did this happen? If he only studied so long with GM Choi and then went off with his secret art only taught to the monks and then handed down to him, when did he have time for his 8th dan?

I'm not saying isn't capable of putting the hurt on someone, but saying he is an 8th dan in HKD sort of conficts with what he claims to do.

[shesulsa]

JBL was an 8th dan in HKD? Who promoted him? When did this happen? If he only studied so long with GM Choi and then went off with his secret art only taught to the monks and then handed down to him, when did he have time for his 8th dan?

I'm not saying isn't capable of putting the hurt on someone, but saying he is an 8th dan in HKD sort of conficts with what he claims to do.

Hm. I'm pretty sure it was 8th. Perhaps we can do some digging around in the old HRD threads here.

[Brian R. VanCise]

I'm pretty sure Shesulsa is right on this. I would also say that his skills in that area are exceptional and always have been. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon6.gif

[zDom]

Today there is not *a* style called Hapkido, there never were, and there never will be. The styles are just too different.

This is something I have come to believe as well — that hapkido is/has become as generic and general as "karate" and that you should always be more specific, i.e., "Shotokan karate" or "Gojo Ryu karate."

I almost always refer to the art I study as "Moo Sul Kwan Hapkido" (Lee H. Park's hapkido — which is from but different than the Korean Musulkwan hapkido Park himself studied (not much, but different).

[miguksaram]

I'm pretty sure Shesulsa is right on this. I would also say that his skills in that area are exceptional and always have been. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon6.gif

I'm not saying he isn't, but I am curious as to who promoted him to that rank. If he has been involved in HKD for that long then I would think it would throw a ratchet in his "I got my art from a secret buddhist monk" story.

[miguksaram]

This is something I have come to believe as well — that hapkido is/has become as generic and general as "karate" and that you should always be more specific, i.e., "Shotokan karate" or "Gojo Ryu karate."

I agree, that HKD has become more of a system than a style. No longer do you just study HKD, you study Combat HKD or Sin Moo HKD or Kuk Suk HKD.

[iron_ox]

I'm not saying he isn't, but I am curious as to who promoted him to that rank. If he has been involved in HKD for that long then I would think it would throw a ratchet in his "I got my art from a secret buddhist monk" story.

Hello all,

To add another perspective. I trained with a master that began training with Choi Dojunim in 1949, he received his 8th dan in 1979. He lived his whole life in Daegu, where Choi Dojunim lived. Rim Jung Bae, a well known student of Choi Dojunim, was only awared a 7th Dan, as was Chung Kee Tae (Toronto). It is, with these and other examples, the case that Choi Dojunim did not give rang at that level to anyone that did not train with him long term, and never gave anything above 7th Dan to anyone that did not live in Daegu - at least that I have ever been able to find.

Choi Dojunim ALWAYS issued certificates, if Joo Bang Lee was given an 8th Dan by Choi Dojunim, Lee should have a cert. without that, at least, his claim is HIGHLY suspect.

Again, and nothing at all against Lee, but the only person reporting him receiving an 8th Dan is him...and frankly, his claim in articles to have been any "head of Hapkido" is ridiculous.

Just another perspective.

[miguksaram]

Hello all,

Choi Dojunim ALWAYS issued certificates, if Joo Bang Lee was given an 8th Dan by Choi Dojunim, Lee should have a cert. without that, at least, his claim is HIGHLY suspect.

Thank you for that input. That is what I am trying to figure out. Ji Dojunim or Rim Kwangjangnim are two of the highest ranking students of Choi Dojunim. So if Choi, Ji or Rim didn't issue the cert then where did he get it? It seems those would be the only qualified people who could rank him.

[iron_ox]

Thank you for that input. That is what I am trying to figure out. Ji Dojunim or Rim Kwangjangnim are two of the highest ranking students of Choi Dojunim. So if Choi, Ji or Rim didn't issue the cert then where did he get it? It seems those would be the only qualified people who could rank him.

OK, not to quibble, but Ji Han Jae got a confirmed third dan, MAYBE as high as 6th Dan (never seen the cert myself, except the 3rd), Rim Jung Bae, 7th Dan.

4 men got 9th Dan from Choi Dojunim. Chang, Chin Il, (Current Dojunim), Grandmaster Lim, Hyun Soo, Grandmaster Kim Yun Sang, Grandmaster Lee (deceased).

There are SEVERAL men in Daegu that received 8th Dan, but again, they lived and trained in Daegu.

Hope this helps. Probably just adds to the confusion...

[zDom]

Then again, Choi himself reportedly "lost" his certification.

While I personally think certification is nice to have, it is not the end-all and be-all of hapkido.

Rank, for that matter, is more of an indication of longevity in a style and/or knowledge of a certain curriculum than a reflection of a practitioner's skill.

I'm not from Ji's lineage but having seen video of him in action, I consider him to be as real as it gets — whether he has 3rd, 6th or 20th degree certification. His "kung-fu" pretty good :)

[miguksaram]

Again, it is not a question of skill, just a question of honesty. I don't doubt that JBL is very technical, but there just seems to be a forest of inaccuracies surrounding his background.

[shesulsa]

Again, it is not a question of skill, just a question of honesty. I don't doubt that JBL is very technical, but there just seems to be a forest of inaccuracies surrounding his background.
I think that horse has been beaten here before.

[miguksaram]

I think that horse has been beaten here before.

True...but the horse isn't dead yet...Plus I just joined the party.

[miguksaram]

I think that horse has been beaten here before.
Yes, but the horse isn't dead yet, and I just joined the party..so you know...I'm whippin' away

[arnisador]

I think that horse has been beaten here before.

At this point that's probably true of most topics on this board!

[shesulsa]

True...but the horse isn't dead yet...Plus I just joined the party.
Really? I thought you said you were here before?

[miguksaram]

Really? I thought you said you were here before?

I was, but not this particular thread. :) I was checking the archives for some of my past threads. The only one I could find was called BBB for the Martial Arts that I started a while back.

Now if you can just point me in the direction that horse....

[ancient warrior]

in my opinion there are very many differences between hrd & hkd, i am a blue sash in hrd & w/ tae soo do bb and i am now studying for my bb in hapkido, both are very effective if taught correctly ,and they are very similar, the hapkido school also teaches tae kwon do but it is different than other tkd schools training ive seen. i believe Joe Bang lees hrd is more martial art than than the martial sport taught in hapkido or tae kwon do today good luck train hard.......a.w.

[miguksaram]

in my opinion there are very many differences between hrd & hkd, i am a blue sash in hrd & w/ tae soo do bb and i am now studying for my bb in hapkido, both are very effective if taught correctly ,and they are very similar, the hapkido school also teaches tae kwon do but it is different than other tkd schools training ive seen. i believe Joe Bang lees hrd is more martial art than than the martial sport taught in hapkido or tae kwon do today good luck train hard.......a.w.

Yes, there would be similarities because HRD stems from HKD. JBL added in some other arts, but the base is still HKD. What do you mean by martial sport in HKD?

[ancient warrior]

Yes, there would be similarities because HRD stems from HKD. JBL added in some other arts, but the base is still HKD. What do you mean by martial sport in HKD?what i meant by hrd being more martial is that the follow ups in techniques are more advanced and are more harmful to your attacker than what i have learned from hkd which seems more sport like...dont get me wrong they are great martial training hrd seems so much deeper ...... i.m.h.o................

[miguksaram]

what i meant by hrd being more martial is that the follow ups in techniques are more advanced and are more harmful to your attacker than what i have learned from hkd which seems more sport like...dont get me wrong they are great martial training hrd seems so much deeper ...... i.m.h.o................

Well all I can say is since I don't know where you took your HKD, I can't really comment on this as most of the HKD that I have been exposed to have had follow up moves as well which, applied the right way, can be deadly to the attacker as well. Again, I have to stress that what you do in HRD is HKD with flare.

[howard]

...most of the HKD that I have been exposed to have had follow up moves as well...
miguksaram is correct.

ancient warrior, there is no sport/competition in traditional Hapkido. I know that some people are doing competitions these days and calling it Hapkido, but Choi's original art was purely one of self defense.

You remove the essence of Choi's original techniques when you adapt them to a sport environment. That is simply not what they were ever intended for.

Some of Hapkido's finishing techniques mimic the todome strike found in Hapkido's Aikijujutsu source art. The todome strike in Jujutsu, in turn, mimics a finishing technique done with the knife (tanto), frequently to the throat.

That's pretty far removed from sport.

[mystic warrior]

Well all I can say is since I don't know where you took your HKD, I can't really comment on this as most of the HKD that I have been exposed to have had follow up moves as well which, applied the right way, can be deadly to the attacker as well. Again, I have to stress that what you do in HRD is HKD with flare.

Sorry dude you are wrong.
I have trainned in both arts myself as well.
And before you start asking it was I.H.F. style.
But let me ask you have you trainned in the art of Hwa Rang Do.
Or do you just watch youtube to get your answers. I am not bashing you.
Just trying to understand where you are coming from. Ya see most people who have some thing to say about one art or another have never trainned in the art. Or they have had very little training to speak off. And then want to talk ****! about it.
I am sure your style has its cool points as well does mine.
It may also have it bad as well as mine. But I will say this. And its not just the people that train in korean arts. Not I am not just aiming at you all as well as my self. But we all need to get over ourselves. And they petty kind of thing that goes on forums such as this is the reason that higher ranked people in arts will not come on to foums. I know I have spoke to a few high rankers and that is the reason. They feel that it run by low ranked black belts and wanna be bruce lees. Who have nothing to really offer but running off at the mouth about things they do not understand.
I really don't see forums getting much better if we keep posting stuff like this. Who really cares at the end of the day if HRD is Hapkido or not.
Is your life really that effected to find out the answer to that.
If so you may need some help.
But I know that this post will be blown off. Because there will be some one else who will want to whine about what DJN JBL did or didn't say or do.
When you should be just training.
Just a thought.
Well back to training.

[miguksaram]

Sorry dude you are wrong.
I have trainned in both arts myself as well.
And before you start asking it was I.H.F. style.
But let me ask you have you trainned in the art of Hwa Rang Do.

Well as entertaining as YouTube is, no, that is not where I do my research. I have trained, off and on, with GM DeAlba of the Modern Farang Mu Sul group, for a couple of years. I am in no way shape or form saying that I am even an advance level of the art. GM DeAlba, for the record, trained under JSL and eventually JBL until he left, or got kicked out depending on which side you choose to believe, personally, I subscribe to the "he left" camp. I have done research in the art itself and again, it traces itself back to HKD.



Ya see most people who have some thing to say about one art or another have never trainned in the art. Or they have had very little training to speak off. And then want to talk ****! about it.
I am sure your style has its cool points as well does mine.

I agree. That seems to be the trend of it now and days. Now, again, I must reiterate that I am not in anyway shape or form saying the HRD is a crap art. To say that would be bashing my own instructor GM DeAlba. HRD, is a very effective art. What I am questioning is the historical "facts" it uses that justify its origins. Does the origin of the art make it any less or any more effective? No. It makes for some really cool movie content and fantasy kung fu movie material, but it does not have any overall effect on the art's effectiveness.


And they petty kind of thing that goes on forums such as this is the reason that higher ranked people in arts will not come on to foums. I know I have spoke to a few high rankers and that is the reason. They feel that it run by low ranked black belts and wanna be bruce lees. Who have nothing to really offer but running off at the mouth about things they do not understand.

There are many forums which high ranking people will get involved in and enjoy discussions. It is a personal choice of the instructor. Perhaps some of them should get involved more to help educate. This is a new world and forums are considered a mainstream avenue of getting information and news on the arts.


I really don't see forums getting much better if we keep posting stuff like this. Who really cares at the end of the day if HRD is Hapkido or not.

I disagree. Discussions like this are very healthy when done in a mature and respectful way. It gives people the chance to learn more than just physical applications of an art. Some even go out and start researching and bettering their own knowledge or kill preconceived notions of what they previously believed. As I stated above it doesn't effect the physical aspect of the art, but it does give you insight on other parts.


Is your life really that effected to find out the answer to that. If so you may need some help.

Why? Because I choose to seek out more than what is spoon fed to me? Actually it does effect my life, because I learn something new about the martial arts regardless if I am right or wrong, I learn.

So my question is this, what if hypothetically, JBL was lying? What if he never learned anything from the Dosa? What if all his training was nothing more than HKD mixed with some kungfu and he needed to tell this eloborate story to attract more people. How would you feel about that? Can you trust someone who lies to you about their background and training?

[mystic warrior]

For me I do not care if is or it is not a hapkido off shoot. What matters is the training. And what the art stands for, even if the founder is not up to the standards he sets for the rest of his students.
Truth be told I think the person you may want have the talks with is not us. But Dr. JBL himself other wise no one really knows what happened back then. Except the people that were there and even that is kind of up in the air. Because when you look at it. You have one persons side and the other persons side. And then there is the truth. Now I am not calling either Dr. JBL or Mr. Dealba a lier. But you have only heard one side of the story as well as myself. But you can not really have a full understand untill you have both sides of the story. And then make up your own mind on your own.
Other wise you are just telling us what he believes and not the truth.
However the same could be said for me as well.
But I do not claim to know both men that well. And I am sure it is above both of our pay grade. As far as the info that is really non of our buisness.

[miguksaram]

Sorry dude you are wrong.

BTW...Forgot to ask you how you know if I am right or wrong when you have never studied with the same teachers of HKD that I have trained with?

[miguksaram]

For me I do not care if is or it is not a hapkido off shoot.

Then why bother even posting in this thread if you don't care?


What matters is the training. And what the art stands for, even if the founder is not up to the standards he sets for the rest of his students.

I can almost agree with you up to the last statement. How can you learn an art from someone who will not even live up to their own standards? Why would you subscribe to any training that the instructor will not subscribe to?


Truth be told I think the person you may want have the talks with is not us. But Dr. JBL himself other wise no one really knows what happened back then. Except the people that were there and even that is kind of up in the air. Because when you look at it. You have one persons side and the other persons side. And then there is the truth. Now I am not calling either Dr. JBL or Mr. Dealba a lier. But you have only heard one side of the story as well as myself. But you can not really have a full understand untill you have both sides of the story. And then make up your own mind on your own.

Well the problem is first it isn't just one incident, there are several people who fell to the wrath of WHRDA over money issues (which is the heart of it all). The sad part was GM DeAlba always gave him praise and never said a unkind word about JBL even when they were putting him through all the crap that they have been.

I digress as this isn't about Lee vs DeAlba, this is about HRD being or not being HKD.


And I am sure it is above both of our pay grade. As far as the info that is really non of our buisness.

Not to dive into the political part of this, but it is our business when it does in the long run could have an impact on the art itself, but again, topic for another thread.

[lulflo]

Hello.

In response to the name of the thread. Hwa Rang Do is not Hapkido because the curriculum is different, for a start.

I would say that would be the easiest way to separate the two, but in saying that, I could also say that my HRD is different from your HRD. Hopefully all of the material is in there, but it could be in a different order or in a different rank. I know that just in my training, I have been given material that was taught to my teacher in one belt that was given to another of my teachers in a different belt ranking. I know that there was at least one additional belt ranking added at one time so some of the material has shifted as well.

So maybe my first response is now out the window?

I can not comment on HKD because I have never studied it, I have seen others perform and there are some very similar locks and kicking and striking, but I have also seen those strikes in TKD and some in Kenpo? Mostly I notice a difference in approaches and in the teaching. I guess the discussion of the similarities between HRD/HKD is because of the roots...which is certainly valid, but HRD was a system that was made as a curriculum to learn based on the information that was available to the creator of this art. I am very impressed and while I, like anyone, can see gaps/similarities etc. I haven't seen anyone that does the exact same thing as HRD yet.

The most important thing I have found is that when I looked for a teacher, it was because I felt like I could learn from him. I didn't know anything about the art, but I did learn how to do things I couldn't do before and I guess HRD was my way, maybe HKD could have been, but I wouldn't know now.

Hoping we all find our way,

Farang - Larry

[miguksaram]

Hello.

In response to the name of the thread. Hwa Rang Do is not Hapkido because the curriculum is different, for a start.

Yes, there is not doubt that the curriculum is different. I believe the overall point is the core of the art is being called into question.

Let me use this as an example. I have rank in taekwondo and kempo, I also have knowledge in kung fu. I break off from my Grandmaster for whatever reason, good or bad. I then implement just my kempo hand striking techniques along with the kung fu forms but the core of the art is still taekwondo. I now call this art Taekempfu and proclaim it to be a seperate art. Do I have the right to claim that it is has no connections to taekwondo or that it is not a taekwondo system?

Look at arts such as Kajukembo. It is indeed a seperate art with its seperate curriculum, but it does not proclaim to have no connections to it core arts, which is what HRD seems to do. Nor does it make unfounded claims about its origins.


I can not comment on HKD because I have never studied it
According to my argument you have. :) You have just not studied the same curriculum of HKD that I have. ;)


The most important thing I have found is that when I looked for a teacher, it was because I felt like I could learn from him.

Which, again, I want to reiterate that I am not calling any of the Lee's skills in question. To do so would be to call my own instructor's skills into question becasue he trained under them. In fact he just re-enforces my point. His core background is in KSW and HRD amongst other things. Yet what he has done is evolved the art into something very different than what is taught in HRD, from my understanding. He has changed the name, for legal reasons, but still maintains its roots.


Farang - Larry

As in Farang Mu Sul? We may have more in common than you think. ;)

[shesulsa]

I think most HRD and non-WHRDA HRD folk say/type "farang" as a generic salutation ... kinda like some other folks here use "aloha." ;)

A few things continue to bother me in the whole lineage argument - with any art, really.

As I understand it and as it has been explained to me by some Koreans I've spoken to:

First, The whole cultural aspect of filial piety runs SO DEEP in the Korean culture that if your father told you to never tell anyone about a family secret or to perpetuate a complete fabrication regarding your family, you would absolutely die without telling another soul the secret or in the effort of broadcasting the lie. That aspect alone speaks volumes as to the insistence by anybody of anything.

Second, entire empires were completely destroyed and wiped from written existence by newer regimes all over Asia for ... uh ... ever. Not finding written proof doesn't automatically dismiss by default, it only means it can't be proven. This is a KEY point in all arguments on things that "don't exist." I've been told there is a spot where Suahm Dosa supposedly lived and where the Lees trained. I can't remember if I was told it's a small pile of rubble or if it's marked in some way - but indeed, no record of anyone living there. Well. If you had access to information you didn't want known and wanted to stay hidden, don't you think you could find a way to make that happen? No title deeds? No tax records?

Yes, I know what scholars and academia says, but the point is that the possibility exists regardless of the probability. Pages and pages of arguments can't dismiss that something with no record didn't exist unless it did exist as something else verifiable.

Of course, it's extremely difficult to observe hapkido, aikido, shotokan, etcetera and not see the more-than-just-similarities between those arts and our very own.

As scientific Westerners, it's extremely difficult to bow to filial piety such that we will perpetuate ... ah ... stories that may be tweaked a little, to put it very, very respectfully. As to putting an assembly of good stuff together and calling it your own - do you have the "right" to do that? Why not? People have been doing that for a very, very long time.

Now ...

As I've said before, Hwa Rang Do is a great style and I'm just not going to beat a dead horse, especially since I can't know all the facts as I was not there. I've read some very convincing arguments as to certain facets of the HRD controversy but ya know folks? It's all politics.

I hate politics. :asian:

To repeatedly bash a Korean man for creating a great style and then being Korean about it? Well ... that's not an argument I really want to get into. DJN put together a great style. I wish my body and talent could be worthy of it. But I do also wish we could have a bit more honesty in ALL martial arts.

Farang,

JKNK

[miguksaram]

I think most HRD and non-WHRDA HRD folk say/type "farang" as a generic salutation ... kinda like some other folks here use "aloha." ;)

Ironic isn't it that they Farang yet there is no 'F' letter or word in the Korean language. I would love to see the kanji for this word. I asked my wife about Farang and she said it must be something they made up for the art or mispronounced from some other word. The closest to the word she could think of is baran which means blue. Now onto more interesting items.


First, The whole cultural aspect of filial piety runs SO DEEP in the Korean culture that if your father told you to never tell anyone about a family secret or to perpetuate a complete fabrication regarding your family, you would absolutely die without telling another soul the secret or in the effort of broadcasting the lie. That aspect alone speaks volumes as to the insistence by anybody of anything.

That can be said for almost any culture. How many European aristocrats had dirty laundry which was never aired?


Second, entire empires were completely destroyed and wiped from written existence by newer regimes all over Asia for ... uh ... ever. Not finding written proof doesn't automatically dismiss by default, it only means it can't be proven.
Well true and false. Korea has a very distinct history and lineage which can be traced, back to the original inhabiting of the land itself. So with that in mind you can sort of sift through what is fact and what is fiction in some martial art history.


This is a KEY point in all arguments on things that "don't exist." I've been told there is a spot where Suahm Dosa supposedly lived and where the Lees trained. I can't remember if I was told it's a small pile of rubble or if it's marked in some way - but indeed, no record of anyone living there. Well. If you had access to information you didn't want known and wanted to stay hidden, don't you think you could find a way to make that happen? No title deeds? No tax records?

Yet, they would expose all other information EXCEPT where they trained? That alone doesn't make any sense. I will teach you what I learned, who I learned it from when I learned it, but I will never reveal where I learned it. Sorry but this just throws up a red flag in my mind. Plus another thing to remember is that Asian culture, especially Korean and Japanese are very adamant about documentation of existence. So unless the Suahm Dosa belong to a cult, there should be records about him being a monk somewhere. It is also traditional to keep a picture of your instructor and even have pictures of you with your instructor. Where are photos of Dosa? They have pictures with their HKD instructor.



To repeatedly bash a Korean man for creating a great style and then being Korean about it? Well ... that's not an argument I really want to get into. DJN put together a great style. I wish my body and talent could be worthy of it. But I do also wish we could have a bit more honesty in ALL martial arts.

I agree to a point. The style as it was taught by JSL is great, so why not just take credit for. What is so wrong in saying "I learned HKD from DJN Ji Han-jae and DJN Choi, Young-sool. I also learned from this guy and that guy. I then worked my butt off to put together a system that I felt was more complete than what I was being taught. I named it Hwarangdo in honor of Korea's elite society of young men." However, they seem to be taking a more romantic approach to the origin of the art. If found to be wrong it is not a case of them tweeking it a bit, it is pretty much just lying to sell it. It has nothing to do with being Korean about it.

Now I would be very interested to know if tell their Korean schools the same origin story.

[zDom]

I agree to a point. The style as it was taught by JSL is great, so why not just take credit for. What is so wrong in saying "I learned HKD from DJN Ji Han-jae and DJN Choi, Young-sool. I also learned from this guy and that guy. I then worked my butt off to put together a system that I felt was more complete than what I was being taught. I named it Hwarangdo in honor of Korea's elite society of young men." However, they seem to be taking a more romantic approach to the origin of the art. If found to be wrong it is not a case of them tweeking it a bit, it is pretty much just lying to sell it. It has nothing to do with being Korean about it.


(My bold)

I have OFTEN wondered about that myself.

He isn't the only one, fwiw. It seems that MANY of the Korean GMs seem to think it diminishes THEIR story if they give credit where credit is due.



For example, there is a VERY WELL KNOWN GM that founded his own style after studying hapkido who omits ALL mention that

he actually learned his first hapkido techniques from Lee H. Park

I won't stir up a big poopstorm by mentioning who exactly it is, so don't bother asking.

But it is sad.