If you train in TSD, how do you connect with Hwang Kee? Do you acknowledge him as the founder of your system? I realize this question is highly political and I am not trying to start a fight. I just want to get some perspective from other TSD groups out there. I myself trained in Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan until 1st gup. Then my instructor pulled out of the federation because he felt that it stifled the creativity of students and that it wasn't really doing anything to make our school better..

See also:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7256

There have been other discussions along these lines as well!

The organization I am affilited with broke away from the Moo Duk Kwan back in 1982.
I acknowledge Hwang Kee as the founder of the MDK, but not as the founder of Tang Soo Do, as there were multiple instructors at the time using the name Tang Soo Do as the style taught by their Kwan.
I've read an interview with General Choi where he says that even he called the style he taught to the military "Tang Soo" before he came up with the name Taekwon-Do.

That is interesting. I've never heard that before. I've always been taught that ALL Tang Soo Do comes from Hwang Kee.

Tang Soo and Kong Soo are the Korean pronounciations for Kara Te, and were in wide use.

Hwang Kee first called his style Hwa Soo Do, but his first few schools failed. As Tang Soo Do was the popular terms, he picked up the forms and name and began teaching it also.... the rest is history.

Lee Won Kuk was the first to use the term Tang Soo Do in 1944, Hwang Kee didn't use the term for several years after that (I believe in 1947).

Hope this helps

Are Lee Wan Kuk and Hwang Kee connected in any way? Did they train together? Something else?

I have heard that Hwang Kee trained at Won Kuk Lee's dojang before founding the Moo Duk Kwan. Mithios

The Soo Bahk Do guys I know would be screaming if they heard that. Post it on their board and flame away....

Won Kuk Lee also said it in an interview in TKD times. year before last i think. I will dig around and see if i can find it in this mess. How about you post it :) wooweee LOL , Mithios

Hwang Kee and Lee Won-kuk were friends, and I do believe Hwang trained with him for a short while.

The Moo Duk Kwan was founded before he trained with Lee. I believe he was getting coaching on how to do the Pyung-ahn forms properly, as that was not in Hwang's background - but of course was Lee's.

Hwang admitted that after talking to Lee, he decided to also use the name TangSooDo and switch to using the Okinawan Karate forms as Lee and the others were all doing.

If you train in TSD, how do you connect with Hwang Kee? Do you acknowledge him as the founder of your system? I realize this question is highly political and I am not trying to start a fight. I just want to get some perspective from other TSD groups out there. I myself trained in Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan until 1st gup. Then my instructor pulled out of the federation because he felt that it stifled the creativity of students and that it wasn't really doing anything to make our school better..
You've brought up a common misunderstanding about Tang Soo Do and Moo Duk Kwan. Tang Soo Do is a much larger style than Hwang Kee's Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan. There are Tang Soo Do (not Moo Duk Kwan) schools over over the world. They are generally hard to find, generally taught at recreation centers, YMCA's, etc. by instructors that are dedicated to the art and not money.

Soo Bahk Do is the latest name Grandmaster Hwang Kee used to define his style that always underwent continuous changing. It is no longer related to Tang Soo Do but MAY be close to Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan.

Best Regards,

Len Losik

Am I to understand that the actual material taught in these two arts (MDK and TSD) are essentially the same and the differences are more political or personality driven? The reason I ask is it seems that differences in various "styles" seems to have a whole lot more to do about the teaching or organizational priorities than ever in the actual execution of techniques. Comments?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

You've brought up a common misunderstanding about Tang Soo Do and Moo Duk Kwan. Tang Soo Do is a much larger style than Hwang Kee's Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan. There are Tang Soo Do (not Moo Duk Kwan) schools over over the world. They are generally hard to find, generally taught at recreation centers, YMCA's, etc. by instructors that are dedicated to the art and not money.

Soo Bahk Do is the latest name Grandmaster Hwang Kee used to define his style that always underwent continuous changing. It is no longer related to Tang Soo Do but MAY be close to Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan.

Best Regards,

Len Losik

TSD schools unrelated to the MDK are not so hard to find. In my area, we have quite a few. I have met the instructors and trained with them and gone out and talked about the differences. All of the people I've talked to were connected in some way to Hwang Kee. SBD is an organization created to standardize TSD technique because the Grandmaster felt that it was getting bastardized. Otherwise, SBD is/was TSD at one time or another. The reasons for the splintering vary depending on who you talk to. The most common theme was Hwang Kee's insistance of promoting his own son as grandmaster above his senior students. This move drove them to create their own organizations and sometimes create their own histories...

That theme just never seems to die, does it. Daddy starts a business and wants to pass it along to the son. In Hapkido we have the same thing with Yong Sul Choi and his family, with In Sun Seo and his family and probably would have seen the same thing with Joo Bang Lee and HIS family (if there had not been a falling out between Dad and son). The Kempo people and the Isshin-ryu people had the same problem and even the DRAJJ despite having a written document!!

You know I don't mind Koreans playing at adopting the Japanese Ryu-ha system if thats what they want to do, However I wish they would either do it right, or not do it at all----- one of the other. These half-a$$ed attempts really screw people up, ya know? If you are going to have a family run sole-proprietary business, then OK-- tell everyone thats your intention and do it along those lines. Don't call it a "federation" or an "association" and don't apply for incorporation. Those are all very different. Don't even get me started on For-profit and Not-for-profit organizations!

On the other hand, if you DO apply for incorporation and represent oneself as a "federation" or "association", then, by-gawd, write-up your by-laws, establish your board and leadership and agree that everyone from sonny down to the janitor have a fair crack at influencing things according to their ability.

I think one of the biggest problems with many of these Korean organizations is that they use many terms inter-changeably in an effort to approximate Western institutions but without actually understanding the philosophical underpinnings. A federation is not the same as an association, and a corporation is not the same as a sole proprietorship.

Now I don't have a problem if someone wants to do things the "old-fashioned way" and I don't mind if people want to try some new organizational model. But this sitting on the fence and calling one thing by some other name and acting yet in a third fashion is a real pain in the tush!!

Best Wishes,

Bruce

I actually train in 3 styles of Moo Duk Kwan. I have a 4th Dan in Soo Bahk Do under GM Ivanhoe Kim, a 5th Dan under Young Ik Han in Tang Soo Do (Moo Duk Kwan for both), and a 5th Dan in Tae Kwon Do (Young Ik Han).

From my understanding, the Moo duk kwan is really the style of Tang Soo Do taught by Hwang kee. The Chung do kwan style by Won Kuk Lee was essentially okinawan Kara-te by Lee's own admission.

From my research it seems that Hwang Kee founded his version of Tang Soo Do when he realised that his style name Hwa Soo Do was doomed within the current post Japanese occupation environment back in 1945. Due to the Koreans being exposed to mainly Japanese Martial Arts for a couple of generations, Hwang kee decided to rename Hwa Soo Do to the more popular Tang Soo Do. Essential creating his version of Tang Soo Do and making it the Moo Duk Kwan style.

It is unclear that General Choi ever called his art Tang Soo Do. From the documents I have found online, it seems that Choi was totally against the name Tang Soo Do as it was too Japanese in flavour. Hence his total commitment in changing the name of the martial art of Korea to one that was more Korean?? Hence the institution of Tae Kwon Do. Of all the original kwans, only Hwang Kee stood alone and refused to join the Tae Kwon Do fellowship. This seems to be for political reasons as General Choi was dictating in regards to the Technical Advisory membership, of which Hwang kee was purposely omitted by Choi. The rest can be said is history.

It seems that Tang Soo Do (Moo Duk Kwan) and Soo Bahk Do (Moo Duk Kwan) are essentially the same upto approx 5 years ago, when as I believe from some of the current US Soo Bahk Do members, a decision was made to remove all Japanese based Hyungs and replace them with the Chil Sung and Yuk Ro hyungs. I still believe that this has still yet to take place.

Whatever happens, the Moo Duk Kwan Style will be distinctive from other styles of Tang Soo Do.

Tang Soo!!

Steve

I believe Gen. Choi did call his TKD "Tae Soo Do" for a brief time, but earged the other Kwans to all join as one, and change the name to "Tae Kwon Do".

From the transcripts that I have seen online, it seems that the rest of the Kwans without General Choi changed their names to Tae Soo Do, whilst Gneral Choi was overseas with the army. When General Choi returned, he was angered that the name Tae Kwon Do was not used and urged all kwan Heads to revert back to the Tae Kwon Do name that he had suggested.

General Choi would not have used Tang Soo Do as he considered it was too Japanese, even though all of his martial training was in Japanese Kara-te. It seems that because of General Choi's insistance over the name Tae Kwon Do, this gave another reason for Hwang Kee to stand fast and remain as the only kwan teaching Tang Soo Do Soo Bahk Do, when all other Kwan Heads renamed their art as Tae Kwon Do.

Tang Soo!!

To go one step further, it would appear that this is why the ITF was founded, and one of the reasons that Choi found himself persona non grata within the ROK TKD world.

I agree Master Clay,

General Choi founded the ITF due to the refusal of other Kwan heads to ratify his credentials in TaeKwonDo. He was out of favour with the South Korean government as well. IT seems that the TKD community which he had unified in the early Fifties, had turned against him, due to that he had claimed that he had a 4th dan in TKD when in fact the evidence showed that he had a 1st Dan in Japanese Kara-te (probably Shotokan).

Never the less, General Choi has done a lot for the spread of Tae Kwon Do throughout the world and this can not be forgotten, even though his early methods seem a little dubious now.

Tang Soo!!

I also agree, this is from martial art talk.com

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=223189

The year 1955 signaled the beginning of Taekwondo as a formally recognized martial art in Korea. As previously mentioned, in the 1950's, General Choi Hong Hi had developed and was teaching a new style of Taekkyon he called Taekwondo to the Korean army, air force, and police. At the time, his Taekwondo was a merely Korean version of Shotokan Karate that he had learned in Japan.
On April 11, 1955, a special board composed of many martial arts grand masters (such as Chung-Do-Kwan instructors Duk Sung Son and Jong Myun Hyun, archeologists, historians, and prominent leaders met to develop a new name for Tae-soo-do. At this meeting, General Choi, as the established head of the Chung-Do-Kwan, proposed that the new art should be called Taekwondo. Duk Sung on says that he passed a piece of paper to Choi suggesting the name and that Choi took credit for it. Since Taekwondo translates to "tae" meaning a kick or strike with the foot, "kwon" meaning a punch or strike with the fist, and "do" meaning the way of, it described the arts use of strikes using both hands and feet. The name Taekwondo was unanimously adopted by the board. At first, President Rhee rejected the name, preferring to use the name Taekkyon, but Choi convinced him that Taekwondo was a better name for the new art.

I do

I am in the WTSDA under JC Shin. Although Shin has been proclaimed a Grandmaster, he always gives utmost respect to his instructor Hwang Kee. So maybe I can consider Hwang Kee my Great-Grandmaster. However, I have no loyalty to Moo Duk Kwan

It is unclear that General Choi ever called his art Tang Soo Do. From the documents I have found online, it seems that Choi was totally against the name Tang Soo Do as it was too Japanese in flavour. Hence his total commitment in changing the name of the martial art of Korea to one that was more Korean?? Hence the institution of Tae Kwon Do. Of all the original kwans, only Hwang Kee stood alone and refused to join the Tae Kwon Do fellowship. This seems to be for political reasons as General Choi was dictating in regards to the Technical Advisory membership, of which Hwang kee was purposely omitted by Choi. The rest can be said is history.

Japanese in flavor? You must mean Chinese. T'ang was a dynasty in China. Hwang Kee did this out of respect for his training in the Chinese arts

That is a common misconception.
Hwang Kee did not coin the term "Tang Soo Do".
"Tang Soo" is the Korean pronounciation for the characters that spell "Kara Te". "Tang Soo Do" is basically how you say "Karate-Do" in Korean, nothing more. To take it a step further, "Kara-Te" roughly translates to "China Hand" in Japanese, and in Korean "China Hand" is pronounced "Tang Soo".

Here is a link to an interview that General Choi did with TKD Times, where by his own admission he referred to his style as "Tang Soo", atleast for a while.

Galvatron

The link didn't come through. Do you still have it? I would be interested in reading that article.

upnorthkyosa

No, Grand Master Won Kuk Lee did.

Galvatron

The link didn't come through. Do you still have it? I would be interested in reading that article.

upnorthkyosa

Sorry! Might have helped had I actually included the link, huh?? Doh! :idunno:

Here ya go

http://www.geocities.com/tkd_unknown/44.html

Tang Soo Do means Art of the Knifehand.

Tang Soo Do means Art of the Knifehand.

A little lesson...

Tang = Tang Dynasty = China
Soo = Hand
Do = Way

Tang Soo Do = Tang Hand Way = China Hand Way

Now, here is something interesting...

Karate-Do

Kara = China
Te = Hand
Do = Way

Karate-Do = China Hand Way

hmmmmmmm..........

upnorthkyosa

A little lesson... upnorthkyosa
Tang = Tang Dynasty = China AND Kara = China
Soo = Hand AND Te = Hand


hmmmmmmm..........

So, Tang and Kara both mean China.
And Soo and Te both mean hand.

I thought Karate meant "empty hand" in Japanese?

Tang = Tang Dynasty = China AND Kara = China
Soo = Hand AND Te = Hand


hmmmmmmm..........

So, Tang and Kara both mean China.
And Soo and Te both mean hand.

I thought Karate meant "empty hand" in Japanese?

Duel meanings for both of them. Haven't you ever wondered where the term "Korean Karate" is derived?

Duel meanings for both of them. Haven't you ever wondered where the term "Korean Karate" is derived?
My girlfriend's parents have both taken the Cho Dan test. I over at their house one night, and they were studying. They told me what Tang Soo Do ment. they had a study guide with all the correct information on it. They told me it ment Art of the Knife Hand. But literally translated,Tang Soo Do means "Art of the Defensive and Offensive hand. " In other words Knifehand.

I've seen many translations that have China Hand...but it is Knifehand. My Style, Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan, teaches us that it means Art of the Knifehand.

Man, i repeat myself a lot.... damn... sorry about that...

My girlfriend's parents have both taken the Cho Dan test. I over at their house one night, and they were studying. They told me what Tang Soo Do ment. they had a study guide with all the correct information on it. They told me it ment Art of the Knife Hand. But literally translated,Tang Soo Do means "Art of the Defensive and Offensive hand. " In other words Knifehand.

I've seen many translations that have China Hand...but it is Knifehand. My Style, Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan, teaches us that it means Art of the Knifehand.

Man, i repeat myself a lot.... damn... sorry about that...

The difference we experiencing all goes back to how the character "soo" is drawn. It can be many things. Those subtleties one things that translations from Korean to English miss.

Again, if you take the chinese characters for "KaraTe-Do" and pronounce them in Korean, you get "Tang Soo Do".
I'm sorry to contradict two 1st dans and a study guide, but I've had it laid out for me and explained in person by my grandmaster, a real-life living, breathing grumpy old Korean.

Shesulsa- To answer your question as best that I can; it is my understanding from the Karateka I've known (and from what I've read), that Gichin Funakoshi more or less "changed" the translation of what Karate meant. Originally it meant "China Hand", and he basically up and said "Nope it now means 'Empty Hand'". I'm not entirely certain how a person can change the meaning of a translation, but that's what i've gotten from my research.
China Hand, in Korean is "Tang Soo"
Empty Hand, in Korean is "Kong Soo"

Again, if you take the chinese characters for "KaraTe-Do" and pronounce them in Korean, you get "Tang Soo Do".
I'm sorry to contradict two 1st dans and a study guide, but I've had it laid out for me and explained in person by my grandmaster, a real-life living, breathing grumpy old Korean.

Shesulsa- To answer your question as best that I can; it is my understanding from the Karateka I've known (and from what I've read), that Gichin Funakoshi more or less "changed" the translation of what Karate meant. Originally it meant "China Hand", and he basically up and said "Nope it now means 'Empty Hand'". I'm not entirely certain how a person can change the meaning of a translation, but that's what i've gotten from my research.
China Hand, in Korean is "Tang Soo"
Empty Hand, in Korean is "Kong Soo"

Nice explanation... :asian:

Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan teaches it as Art Of the Knifehand - Institute of Military Virtue. From Grandmaster CS Kim (president of the International Tang Soo Do Federation) to Us (the students,four degrees removed) thats what it is, in our style.

I am really curious as to what version of Tang Soo Do you all study...there are five different forms.

The International Tang Soo Do Federation is not the Moo Duk Kwan. It is a break-away organization from the Moo Duk Kwan, as is the TSD organization I came up under. I have a Moo Duk Kwan training manual dated 1978 that shows the translation as being "Way of the China Hand". The "Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan" does not even exist anymore, as it is now the United States Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan Federation.
Moo Duk Kwan translates as "School of Martial Virtue" there is a difference between 'Martial' and 'Military'.

What are these "Five Different forms" of Tang Soo Do?

First off... The ITF represents a realm of styles Tang Soo Do. Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan is not an organization but a form or style of Tang Soo Do. "The Moo Duk Kwan" as you put it is not what i was referring to.
(correction, there are 6 styles, 5 others + Moo Duk Kwan)



Modern History
The subsequent occupation of Korea by the Japanese military regime took place from 1909 to 1945. During this period, practicing and teaching of martial arts was restricted.

After World War II, 1945, this restriction was lifted. Several martial arts training schools were erected at that time as follows.
Moo Duk Kwan by Hwang Kee
Chi Do Kwan by Kwai Byung, Yun
Chung Do Kwan by Duk Sung, Son
Song Moo Kwan by Byung Jik, No
Chang Moo Kwan by Nam Suk, Lee
Yun Moo Kwan by Sang Sup, Chun


My Style, Moo Duk Kwan, Created by Hwang Kee, teaches that Tang Soo Do means Art of the Knifehand, or Art of the Defensive and Offensive hand (Knifehand represents this). As stated before, the ITF represents TSDMDK. You are right, MDK does mean Institute of Military Virtue.

Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan IS NOT Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan nor are the names synomymous for eachother.

American Tang Soo Do usually does not teach or even talk about the other styles, so i am not surprised about the apparent lack knowledge on the issue

Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan is a traditional style from Korea.

Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan Does exist as I am a student of TSDMDK (in the States, no less) and I am not the only student in my dojang.

I suggest you recheck your sources because you have been severly misinformed.

There are many more splinter groups then just those six liniages listed. A lot of people belonged to this or that federation, but do not belong to it any more, yet they still pay their respects to the founder of their arts. It would be an interesting thread to put politics aside and really analyze what Tang Soo Do is.

There are many more splinter groups then just those six liniages listed. A lot of people belonged to this or that federation, but do not belong to it any more, yet they still pay their respects to the founder of their arts. It would be an interesting thread to put politics aside and really analyze what Tang Soo Do is.
I really want to get to long and short of this one.... i think i'll do just that....

My Style, Moo Duk Kwan, Created by Hwang Kee, teaches that Tang Soo Do means Art of the Knifehand, or Art of the Defensive and Offensive hand (Knifehand represents this). As stated before, the ITF represents TSDMDK.
The Organization I belong to is an offshoot from the Moo Duk Kwan as well (as is the ITF), and like I said, in the MDK manual I have sitting right here in front of me (dated 1978), it says Tang Soo Do= "Way of the China Hand".

You are right, MDK does mean Institute of Military Virtue.
"Translated literally, Moo Duk Kwan means "Institute of Martial Virtue." -- This qoute was taken straight from the Moo Duk Kwan website. This is a point that is bordering on nitpicking, based upon individual interpretation of the meaning of the "Moo" character in MDK. I personally don't think GM Hwang meant it in to mean "Military" because he was not a Military man, he worked for the railroad.

Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan IS NOT Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan nor are the names synomymous for eachother.
Being that the US Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan Federation is *THE* Moo Duk Kwan (you know the one that Hwang Kee founded?), and all TSD organizations that claim decedence from the MDK utlimately trace their lineage back to it, makes the above statement nothing short of absurd.

American Tang Soo Do usually does not teach or even talk about the other styles, so i am not surprised about the apparent lack knowledge on the issue
I'm not sure what you're saying here (or rather the person who sent this information to you) is trying to say here? Is he/she referring to the American Tang Soo Do Association? Or Tang Soo Do in America in general? Because many of the Kwans you mentioned previously teach here, and thrive here, they just teach under the name Tae Kwon Do now.

Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan is a traditional style from Korea.
No one's arguing that.



To claim that all of those Kwans are seperate styles of Tang Soo Do is grossly inaccurate, as not all of them even called their style Tang Soo Do. Some of them taught Kong Soo Do, Tae Soo Do, and Kwon Bop. The Moo Duk Kwan was originally "Hwa Soo Do" before changing to TSD.
Hell, the Yun Moo Kwan was a fricken JUDO school prior to the liberation, and the Ji Do Kwan was the Kwon Bop (karate) branch of the Yun Moo Kwan.

I suggest you recheck your sources because you have been severly misinformed

Back at ya, buddy.

Let me see if I can narrow down the actual TSD Federations...

1. Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan (formally Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan)
2. American Tang Soo Do Federation (ATF)
3. International Tang Soo Do Federation (ITF)
4. Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan (UK)
5. There may be more, but I can't think of them...

Now this is where it gets confusing...

1. Tae Kwon Do Moo Duk Kwan Federation

How many other "Federations" of Korean arts incorporate either the name Tang Soo Do or Moo Duk Kwan?

upnorthkyosa

Let me see if I can narrow down the actual TSD Federations...

1. Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan (formally Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan)
2. American Tang Soo Do Federation (ATF)
3. International Tang Soo Do Federation (ITF)
4. Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan (UK)
5. There may be more, but I can't think of them...
I'll add a few that I know of...
6. United Tang Soo Do Federation
7. American Tang Soo Do Association
8. Tang Soo Do Mi Guk Kwan
9. North American Tang Soo Do Association
10. Hwa Rang World Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan Federation

Now this is where it gets confusing...

1. Tae Kwon Do Moo Duk Kwan Federation

The existence of a TKD Moo Duk Kwan is the result of a split in the Moo Duk Kwan at the time of Taekwondo's inception.
The reason behind it depends on who's version of history you go off of.

Let me see if I can narrow down the actual TSD Federations...

1. Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan (formally Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan)
2. American Tang Soo Do Federation (ATF)
3. International Tang Soo Do Federation (ITF)
4. Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan (UK)
5. There may be more, but I can't think of them...
I'll add a few that I know of...
6. United Tang Soo Do Federation
7. American Tang Soo Do Association
8. Tang Soo Do Mi Guk Kwan
9. North American Tang Soo Do Association
10. Hwa Rang World Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan Federation

Now this is where it gets confusing...

1. Tae Kwon Do Moo Duk Kwan Federation

The existence of a TKD Moo Duk Kwan is the result of a split in the Moo Duk Kwan at the time of Taekwondo's inception.
The reason behind it depends on who's version of history you go off of.

Seeing that, i won't just "take your word" for it... please provide some third party links, so i can see for myself.

But... My Style Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan, under Grandmaster CS KIM, conflicts with every singe interpretation you have provided for what Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan really means.

If you cannot find any third party links to back your claim, I think we should just agree to disagree and move on.

[QUOTE=Galvatron]

You are right, MDK does mean Institute of Military Virtue.
"Translated literally, Moo Duk Kwan means "Institute of Martial Virtue." -- This qoute was taken straight from the Moo Duk Kwan website. This is a point that is bordering on nitpicking, based upon individual interpretation of the meaning of the "Moo" character in MDK. I personally don't think GM Hwang meant it in to mean "Military" because he was not a Military man, he worked for the railroad.

QUOTE]

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Martial

Martial means military....

Everything that I know comes from first hand accounts from various Masters (both Korean and American), and research that I've done on my own over the 18 years that I have been a student of Tang Soo Do.
I don't have any need whatsoever to bother compiling links to prove myself to a Yellow Belt. Use your internet connection and research it for yourself.
Try using the forums at www.warrior-scholar.com as a starting place, some of the most knowledgeable Tang Soo Do masters in the country populate that board.

[QUOTE=Galvatron]Everything that I know comes from first hand accounts from various Masters (both Korean and American), and research that I've done on my own over the 18 years that I have been a student of Tang Soo Do.
I don't have any need whatsoever to bother compiling links to prove myself to a Yellow Belt. [QUOTE]

(Note: I only talk about Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan, its the only style i have insight on, you might've noticed that by now)

Oh yes you do.

If you don't provide documentation to counter my documentation, you have no base to stand on.

I want you to prove to not just this yellow belt, but to everyone else that your interpretation of history and all that jazz is right. and citing some mysterious book in your possession isn't going to cut it.

I may be an underbelt, but i know a convincing argument when i see one. And though i am an underbelt, that fact alone doesn't make me incapable of being right. I have been taught by my instructor (Mr. Cerrito), who was taught by his instructor (master Collins) who was taught by Grandmaster CS Kim, That Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan Means Art of the Offensive and Defensive Hand (Knifehand) Institute of Military Virtue. I am a member of the International Tang Soo Do Federation under Grandmaster CS Kim.

1.
The Moo Duk Kwan is seperate from Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan, They were created at the same time (relatively)But have evolved differently.
http://worldmoodukkwan.com/history.html

2.
Tang Soo Do does mean (art of the Offensive and Defensive Hand) in my style. I have been taught this, as well as thousands of other Dans.
http://www.mastercollins.com/terms.htm

3.
I have come across the Translation that it means China hand, and not knifehand. but that just does not make sense. Knifehand is a more accurate translation because:
A. Tang Soo Do is not from China (generally speaking, there are some influences, but not enough to name the style after china)
B. The Knifehand is an offensive and defensive movement (which matches my defintion)
C. Art of Offensive and Defensive hand describes Tang Soo Do in the most accurate light.

To say that i am wrong is just like me telling you are wrong. So instead of trying to "stick it" to me, a yellow belt; Rain upon me with your pool of knowledge.

Sit down Yu Gup Ja, school is in session.

I have come across the Translation that it means China hand, and not knifehand. but that just does not make sense. Knifehand is a more accurate translation because:

So because it "doesn't make sense" to you, it's wrong? Unless you can read or write Hangul (Korean), and understand how the terms are derived from Hanja (Sino-Korean/Chinese), which I can, you aren't qualified to even begin to speculate about the translation.
By the way, the Korean word for "Offense" is "Choe". Defense is "Pang-Bi"

A. Tang Soo Do is not from China (generally speaking, there are some influences, but not enough to name the style after china)
You're right, Tang Soo Do is not from China. It comes from Japan more than anywhere else, and like was said before if you translate "Karate-Do" from Japanese to Korean it is pronounced (in Korean) as "Tang Soo Do", actually more accurately it is pronounced as "Dang Soo Do". "KaraTe-Do" means "Way of the China Hand".

The Moo Duk Kwan is seperate from Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan, They were created at the same time (relatively)But have evolved differently.
As was pointed out to you by someone else in the other thread you started, Anyone in this day and age that practices Tang Soo Do traces their lineage back to the Moo Duk Kwan. ALL TANG SOO DO IS MOO DUK KWAN TANG SOO DO. I can't put it any more clearly that that. The other Kwans that taught Tang Soo Do (Such as the Chung Do Kwan) changed the name of their style to "Tae Kwon Do". For instance, I train in TKD also (and hold Dan rank in it). I trace my lineage back to the Chung Moo Kwan there. The Chung Moo Kwan taught "Kwon Bop". I do not claim to hold Dan rank in Kwon Bop, as the style's name was changed to "Tae Kwon Do" during the kwan unification.

Now I have to go to class and TRAIN, so I have to cut this lesson short.
In the meantime, here's some links to keep you busy, since you don't seem to think any bit of knowledge is factual, without a URL to back it up (gosh darnit if it's on the intarweb it must be true!)

Translated literally, Moo Duk Kwan means "Institute of Martial Virtue."
http://www.soobahkdo.com/fed-web/art.htm (THE Moo Duk Kwan's site)

Today's Tang Soo Do is recognised to be based on the Moo Duk Kwan style. The Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do school was founded by Master Hwang Kee in 1945.
http://home.vicnet.net.au/~stsd/history.htm

Translation= Way of the China Hand. From the American Tang Soo Do Associate site
www.grandmasterbyrne.com

Tang: the Tang Dynasty of China; Tang generally refers to China in old Japanese
Soo: hand
Do: way of life
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tang_Soo_Do

Now was that so hard... i thought it would've been easier to agree to disagree. I am, still, inclined to lean toward what my style teaches...

On the other hand, i cannot look past the information you've provided. I will give it its due attention.

but i've noticed a disturbing tone in your previous threads. Such that, just because i am a yellow belt and you are Dan, your belt trumps mine. Yeah i might not be as schooled as you, but Gosh Darnit, you didn't need to get angry or agitated.

And because you tell me something, doesn't mean i take it as truth, its just hear-say.

Oh and still think that you do not understand what i mean by my style is "Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan" Not Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do, or Just Tang Soo Do.

"Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan" - The entire name of my specific style.

Since you are not in my dojang or a Member of the PKSA or ITF i don't expect you to know what my style entails, because apparently, you need to be a Dan to know what you are talking about.

Mod. Note.
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-shesulsa
-MT Moderator-

but i've noticed a disturbing tone in your previous threads.

When you jump into a conversation between people far your senior and with far more experience than you do on a given subject and tell them they're wrong, because your instructor says so, what do you expect?? If it disturbs you then too bad. Walk up to a Dan holder in person and tell him/her that they're wrong about something, then come back and talk to me about 'disturbing tones'. As I said, I've been a student of Tang Soo Do for 18 years, my original instructor (my father) has been since 1978, and is a 5th Dan (hence where the MDK manual I have came from). Tang Soo Do has been in my life in some way shape or form since I was THREE YEARS OLD. I may not know everything about it, but I DAMN sure know what I'm talking about. So excuse the hell out of me for getting defensive when some kid with 5 months experience jumps in and tells me I'm wrong about one of the most basic aspects of the style.

just because i am a yellow belt and you are Dan, your belt trumps mine.
Not the belt, the experience that it represents. It's called "Seniority". Five Months into it, you don't know ANYTHING other than what your instructor has told you. If you stay with it long term you will eventually learn that there is much more out there than just what your instructor tells you.
I've had 4 instructors, and one them still swears to this day that it's called "Tang Soo Do" because Hwang Kee named it that in honor of the chinese master who taught him kung fu. The sad thing is that he tells his students that, and they all believe it. Because their instructor said so.

When you jump into a conversation between people far your senior and with far more experience than you do on a given subject and tell them they're wrong, because your instructor says so, what do you expect?? If it disturbs you then too bad. Walk up to a Dan holder in person and tell him/her that they're wrong about something, then come back and talk to me about 'disturbing tones'. As I said, I've been a student of Tang Soo Do for 18 years, my original instructor (my father) has been since 1978, and is a 5th Dan (hence where the MDK manual I have came from). Tang Soo Do has been in my life in some way shape or form since I was THREE YEARS OLD. I may not know everything about it, but I DAMN sure know what I'm talking about. So excuse the hell out of me for getting defensive when some kid with 5 months experience jumps in and tells me I'm wrong about one of the most basic aspects of the style.

just because i am a yellow belt and you are Dan, your belt trumps mine.
Not the belt, the experience that it represents. It's called "Seniority". Five Months into it, you don't know ANYTHING other than what your instructor has told you. If you stay with it long term you will eventually learn that there is much more out there than just what your instructor tells you.
I've had 4 instructors, and one them still swears to this day that it's called "Tang Soo Do" because Hwang Kee named it that in honor of the chinese master who taught him kung fu. The sad thing is that he tells his students that, and they all believe it. Because their instructor said so.

Good post, Galvatron. :asian:

Since we share the same art, I know the expectations for propriety inherit in that art. Therefore, I can honestly say that if this conversation took place in the dojang, there would be hell to pay...and Galvatron would be the one to dish it out. Our training is supposed to transcend the dojang and the gup manual clearly states the protocal used when addressing other practicioners in the MDK of higher rank. Keep that in mind when you post here... :whip:

A few pointers for your continued training in the TSDMDK

1. Be respectful. Even if you disagree.
2. Ask questions only after carefull thought. Sometimes you are taught something in TSD that may take some time to actually learn. Learn the patience to accept this.
3. Everywhere you go, you carry your training with you. In the MDK your training is not just technique.

Ok, I'm off the soapbox... :asian:

upnorthkyosa

When you jump into a conversation between people far your senior and with far more experience than you do on a given subject and tell them they're wrong, because your instructor says so, what do you expect?? If it disturbs you then too bad. Walk up to a Dan holder in person and tell him/her that they're wrong about something, then come back and talk to me about 'disturbing tones'. As I said, I've been a student of Tang Soo Do for 18 years, my original instructor (my father) has been since 1978, and is a 5th Dan (hence where the MDK manual I have came from). Tang Soo Do has been in my life in some way shape or form since I was THREE YEARS OLD. I may not know everything about it, but I DAMN sure know what I'm talking about. So excuse the hell out of me for getting defensive when some kid with 5 months experience jumps in and tells me I'm wrong about one of the most basic aspects of the style.

just because i am a yellow belt and you are Dan, your belt trumps mine.
Not the belt, the experience that it represents. It's called "Seniority". Five Months into it, you don't know ANYTHING other than what your instructor has told you. If you stay with it long term you will eventually learn that there is much more out there than just what your instructor tells you.
I've had 4 instructors, and one them still swears to this day that it's called "Tang Soo Do" because Hwang Kee named it that in honor of the chinese master who taught him kung fu. The sad thing is that he tells his students that, and they all believe it. Because their instructor said so.
I didn't say you were wrong, i said prove to me you're right. There is a difference. But my experiences are different that yours. My training, most likely, has been different than yours.

My trust is not something i just throw around. My instructor earned my trust and when he tells me something, I believe it.

Five Months into it, you don't know ANYTHING other than what your instructor has told you. That is... a safe comment. Your probably right. But what i've been told doesn't come from my instructor. It comes from his master, and from his master's master.

). Tang Soo Do has been in my life in some way shape or form since I was THREE YEARS OLD. I may not know everything about it, but I DAMN sure know what I'm talking about. So excuse the hell out of me for getting defensive when some kid with 5 months experience jumps in and tells me I'm wrong about one of the most basic aspects of the style. First off, if you are threatened by me, 1000 miles away, you've got issues. I refer to my above comment on you being wrong. Yes i did jump in, with my style's Definition of "Tang Soo Do".. Didn't i say, "what is the matter with you people, its Art of the Knifehand, not art of the china hand." "God...". You got defensive because i was "challenging" your translation, and you... could not see it from my point of view. I understand all to well, knowing something and a less experienced person telling me different, i know how frustrating it can be.

Since we share the same art, I know the expectations for propriety inherit in that art. Therefore, I can honestly say that if this conversation took place in the dojang, there would be hell to payAgain, right. I know this fact. If i did walk up to him in a Dojang, and stated what i stated it would've been more respectful. but i know exactly how he would've responded. But to say that there is only one translation one meaning and that my style isn't just wrong with its translation it doesn't even exist is absurd. thats Ego right there. Plain ego. Its impossible for him to be wrong, even a little, even when a Yu Gup Ja stands in front of him.

Just like he said, an instructor he had has been wrong, teaching it the wrong way. But hes got it down 100%? Impossible.

And i said before, i was ready to agree to disagree. So that is what i am going to do.

Our training is supposed to transcend the dojang and the gup manual clearly states the protocal used when addressing other practicioners in the MDK of higher rank.
upnorthkyosa
Is there a manual for how a Dan is supposed to talk to Gup?

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I tried to read that thread, but the link was dead...

Try it now.

If you want to know my opinion on what Tang Soo Do means i think it means just that. Tang Soo Do you nor i have any need to know what it translates into english. In fact as far as i'm concerned it translates into Tang Soo Do and also means Tang Soo Do. Thats why all instructors that teach the style call it Tang Soo D and not some translation. What art do you train in China hand way, or Knifehand, or kick you in the head, mind numbing pain throughout your whole body? No I train in Tang Soo Do, no exeptions. Thats what my instructor calls our art and his before him. Disscusion over. bow to your opponent, touch gloves, fights over.



Cause kid said so

Knifehand

I think that the confusion is coming with the character for "soo" depending on how it is drawn, it can mean hand or knifehand. For instance, there is a technique called soo do kun kyuk that we practice, or knife hand attack. "Soo" in this case means knifehand.

This does not take into account the character for "tang" though. Think about this...

I have GM Hwang Kee's book right in front of me. His translation is China Hand Way. See if your instructor has the book "Tang Soo Do Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan...Volume one" Then you can see it for yourself.

upnorthkyosa

If Soo Do means knife hand and Tang means China then should it not be China/Chinese Knife Hand as opposed to Knife Hand Way/Way Of The Knifehand?

Knifehand

I think that the confusion is coming with the character for "soo" depending on how it is drawn, it can mean hand or knifehand. For instance, there is a technique called soo do kun kyuk that we practice, or knife hand attack. "Soo" in this case means knifehand.

This does not take into account the character for "tang" though. Think about this...

I have GM Hwang Kee's book right in front of me. His translation is China Hand Way. See if your instructor has the book "Tang Soo Do Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan...Volume one" Then you can see it for yourself.

upnorthkyosaPersonally, i like the way you handle things, sir. The Soo Do Kong Kyuck is one of my favorite motions, a long with Phakeso Sang Dan Soo Do Kong Kyuck and Ha Dan Soo Do Mahk Kee.

I was thinking about it earlier today. The "Tang" mentioned in Tang Soo Do, is in respect to the Tang Method (which is chinese) but, then that raises the question, why does my style teach it was Art of The Knifehand?

Supposedly "tang" connects us historically to the Chinese "Tang" Dynasty. Martial Artists are always try to convince us students that the style dates back for thousands of years and at the same time the style is relavent for today. We can't really have it both ways, can we?

Tang So Do is barely 50 years old and I'm okay with that.

Supposedly "tang" connects us historically to the Chinese "Tang" Dynasty. Martial Artists are always try to convince us students that the style dates back for thousands of years and at the same time the style is relavent for today. We can't really have it both ways, can we?

Tang So Do is barely 50 years old and I'm okay with that. Tang Soo Do traces it linage back a ways. The modern Tang Soo Do is about 50 years old. but that was when principles and technique merged into Tang Soo Do, but it is taught in the traditional style (thats key). The Principles and techniques that were merged date back thousands of years from all over korea and china. The traditional style is relevant for today because Tang Soo Do is just about self defense, its about self-development and self-awareness. It is an External and Internal Martial Art.

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All I see is two people with a differing opinion on something, arguing their points. At no point in the heated debate has either myself or Knifehand taken to personal attacks on each other (atleast nothing that I've interpreted as one).
Are you attempting to convey to me that in this forum, two people are not allowed to disagree about something, and get a little vocal about it?
I see no need for moderation in this thread, atleast not until it devolves into "SCREW YOU! WANNA FIGHT?? YOU'RE AN IDIOT!"

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Thanks for the overly-generic, canned response.

If Soo Do means knife hand and Tang means China then should it not be China/Chinese Knife Hand as opposed to Knife Hand Way/Way Of The Knifehand?

It looks like it could mean that, but you have to take into account the pronounciation. In Korean a word can have a totally different meaning, depending on how each syllable is stressed. Example being that "Soo Bahk" means "hand strike" (or something to that effect), but "Soobak" (spoken as one word) means "Watermelon". I've heard accounts of native Korean speakers getting a kick out out people saying they study "Soobahkdo" (Way of the watermelon).
"Knifehand" would be pronounced as "Soodo".
"Hand Way" would be pronounced as "Soo Do".
If you wrote them both in Korean they'd be written the same way, it's all in how you stress the syllables.
They say that Korean is one of the most upfront and "logical" languages, based on it's phonetic alphabet, but it's got just as many 'quirks' as any other language.
I wish Kodanjaclay would chime in on this thread, his knowledge of how it all breaks down in Korean runs circles around mine.

It looks like it could mean that, but you have to take into account the pronounciation. In Korean a word can have a totally different meaning, depending on how each syllable is stressed. Example being that "Soo Bahk" means "hand strike" (or something to that effect), but "Soobak" (spoken as one word) means "Watermelon". I've heard accounts of native Korean speakers getting a kick out out people saying they study "Soobahkdo" (Way of the watermelon).
"Knifehand" would be pronounced as "Soodo".
"Hand Way" would be pronounced as "Soo Do".
If you wrote them both in Korean they'd be written the same way, it's all in how you stress the syllables.
They say that Korean is one of the most upfront and "logical" languages, based on it's phonetic alphabet, but it's got just as many 'quirks' as any other language.
I wish Kodanjaclay would chime in on this thread, his knowledge of how it all breaks down in Korean runs circles around mine.

Yeah, me too. I don't know what happened to him, but if you check his old posts they say he is a banned user????????

I'll chime in here for a moment...apologies for going off-topic.

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Kodanjaclay
Master Clay was banned due to his involvement in situation revolving around Mr. Richard Hackworth, also banned. There are many ways to resolve a dispute, and as my grandmother always said "Asking Nice is better than stomping your feet.".

"Knifehand" would be pronounced as "Soodo".
"Hand Way" would be pronounced as "Soo Do".

Thanks for clearing that up, ive been wondering about that for some time. Lol ive heard about the watermelon thing too. Think about how quirky English is, silent letters, different words that sound the same etc. I imagine it can be quite hard to learn as a second language.

Kodanjaclay
Master Clay was banned due to his involvement in situation revolving around Mr. Richard Hackworth, also banned. There are many ways to resolve a dispute, and as my grandmother always said "Asking Nice is better than stomping your feet.".

I did a search on the names involved and read about KMA politics for an hour. I can honestly say that I would have learned more about my art practicing my hyung for that hour....

I did a search on the names involved and read about KMA politics for an hour. I can honestly say that I would have learned more about my art practicing my hyung for that hour....
What, may I ask, is exactly your point?

What, may I ask, is exactly your point?

Trying to figure out the politics involved in the organizations that represent your art is pointless. Who cares about die amgrossestenschlongenspiel anyway? I hate to see people I have (had) a lot of respect for behave like children, throwing challenges out like this is some sort of fantasy land with no consequences. I think we'd all be better MAists if we stopped typing page after page of vitriol for one reason or another and got back in the mats.

upnorthkyosa

ps - this thread need not have been political. It is possible to talk about diversity in an art without grinding axes.

Trying to figure out the politics involved in the organizations that represent your art is pointless. Who cares about die amgrossestenschlongenspiel anyway? I hate to see people I have (had) a lot of respect for behave like children, throwing challenges out like this is some sort of fantasy land with no consequences. I think we'd all be better MAists if we stopped typing page after page of vitriol for one reason or another and got back in the mats.

upnorthkyosa

ps - this thread need not have been political. It is possible to talk about diversity in an art without grinding axes.::Bows Deeply:: Tang Soo!

So, we are still arguing this point about tang Soo Do?

If you were to go the route that Hwang Kee used the name Tang Soo Do to mean "Way ofhte China Hand" - you would be correct. You would also be correct if you were to say he used Tang Soo Do to mean "Karate" In Hwang
Kee's first book he explains this in pretty clear English.

He also explains that he did not invent Tang Soo Do. He spoke of evolution and development. What he was teaching at the time was the best he knew and had seen at that time. It is an empty handed art, and was taught that way by Hwang Kee because according to him - "It is the purest way to learn"

I strongly recommend getting a copy of his book "Soo Bahk Do Tang Soo Do" Yes, that is the title and has been the title since 1968.

Moo Duk Kwan was simply the name of Hwang Kee's school in Korea, and as the school developed and expanded down the rail line, the students all still identified themselves with Moo Duk Kwan which was the first school.

So, if you ask Soo Bahk Do or Tang Soo Do? You may have a hard time because some people are both. I study Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan which is a direct decendant of Hwang Kee's first school, therefore, my Tang Soo Do is Soo Bahk Do. Just as when I study Tae Kwan Do Moo Duk Kwan. If you say you decend from Moo Duk Kwan, you are saying your art has strong ties to Soo Bahk Do because that was what Hwang Kee taught.

This isn't my opinion, this is what is written in hwang Kee;s book and has ben substantiated by numerous articles and quite a few venerable masters.

One more disclaimer - although I say Tae Kwon Do Moo Duk kwan comes from Hwang Kee originally, I am not saying all Tae Kwon Do is Moo Duk Kwan. Quite to the contrary. There were 5 kwans that melded into Tae Kwon Do. Moo Duk Kwan was just the predominant.

If you train in TSD, how do you connect with Hwang Kee? Do you acknowledge him as the founder of your system? I realize this question is highly political and I am not trying to start a fight. I just want to get some perspective from other TSD groups out there. I myself trained in Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan until 1st gup. Then my instructor pulled out of the federation because he felt that it stifled the creativity of students and that it wasn't really doing anything to make our school better..
Until recently I never heard of Hwang Kee. Our student handbook only mentions the ancient history of the art and the history of our Choong Jae Nim.

GM Hwang Kee was the founder of the Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do but in which he changed the name of his system to Soo Bahk Do. There are other kwans that were out there even before he started his, but the majority of TSD still falls under the tutoralage of GM Kee. Even tho other TSD stylist out there have branched off - they still have roots that stem from GM Kee's MDKTSD.

GM Hwang Kee was the founder of the Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do but in which he changed the name of his system to Soo Bahk Do. There are other kwans that were out there even before he started his, but the majority of TSD still falls under the tutoralage of GM Kee. Even tho other TSD stylist out there have branched off - they still have roots that stem from GM Kee's MDKTSD.
Actually, since I posted I found that the Choong Ja Nim of our school studied under him. Pretty neet!

My Grandmaster studied under GM Hwang Kee, at the point of cutting ties he was chief instructor for Europe and Pacific region, I belive that he was the highest ranking student serving under GM Hwang Kee and therefore should have become Grandmaster but things didn't pan out like that hence the split. I've also found reference to him being president of the MDK in the 60s in Korea.

Would that be Kang Uk Lee?

Yes.