Real or Misrepresented

[Master Todd Miller]

Greetings everyone,

Let me introduce myself, I am Todd Miller from up here in NH. I own and opperate Miller's Korean Martial Arts in Dover, NH.

I am wondering what the general opinion of EXPERIENCED Martial Artists is concerning people who misrepresent themselves?

Example:

A person is say a yellow belt, then the next year they are a 7th or 8th degree black belt? Or a person claims rank that is totally false?

Thanks for your thoughts
Master
Todd Miller

[someguy]

They are bad. Maybe a few exeptions to the rule. C't think of any reason why it would be good.

[Aegis]

I can't think of any good reason to misrepresent yourself. It's a really horrible thing to do to the general public, who are usually going to go for what looks like the higher ranked instructor, and is something that sites like this should help in trying to eliminate. Many people get good advice online and are told how to spot fakes, but there's not an awful lot that can be done other than that.

Information is everything, it's just a matter of getting it to the general public.

[pknox]

I believe that anyone who misrepresents themselves in such a manner is not only deceiving the public, but also living contrary to the ethics that the martial arts are supposed to project. In addition, they are not only hurting themselves, and the art they promote, but all arts in general -- when people repeatedly hear claims, and then consistently see them disproven as fraudulent, they begin to assume everyone is crooked - even the ones who aren't. To use two examples, think about what has happened with steroid use in sports, and also with politicians. Many people now believe every athlete is on the former, and it is impossible to find an honest member of the latter. All of this because of well publicized incidents that, though actually small in number, are evidently large in magnitude.

[Nightingale]

Sir, I think I'd be screaming "FRAUD" along with the rest of the martial arts community. Someone with yellow belt rank who puts on a master's belt damages us all and belittles what we work hard for.

[Jeff Boler]

I have a better one for you. What about someone who receives an "honorary" rank, yet treats it as legitimate?

[Nightingale]

personally, I dislike the idea of "honorary" rank. you've either earned rank in that system or you haven't.

[Master Todd Miller]

Honorary rank is just that. I do not like the idea of someone holding rank but have no idea about training methods or technique.

Master
Todd Miller

[Jay Bell]

I'm also not a fan of honorary rank. In a world that for the most part, rank means something, it gives a false impression of someone's understanding and credentials.

[NYCRonin]

Hello Mr. Miller
Re: your question of real or misrepresented - those that attempt to do so should be exposed at every opportunity. The unknowing public walks into a local school, see 'pretty paper' and hears falsified claims -- they dont know a shihan from a sh**hole in the ground. They pay their $$, train and all to often by the lie. If ever called upon to put the 'lessons' to use - they could be killed. Even if never tested in reality, they wind up adding weight to the original lie...UNLESS the phoney is outed or they find the truth for themselves.
'Honorary degrees' are, of course; not worth the paper they are printed on. If you wish to show appreciation to someone -- have a nice citation printed up, give them an engraved pen-set...hell, give them a certificate for dinner at Red Lobster!
On forums like this it IS possible to expose those who claim more degrees than a thermometer. It should be done, particularly in very obvious cases; in my opinion.
To know a member is in over his head in his background claims, and to just sit by under the umbrella of 'playing nice' or political correctness; is no better than to quietly accept a charlatan opening up his own 'WhoHitsYou Ryu' school right next to your legitimate school and offering him a 'welcome to the Way' congratulatory cake.
You lose, his students lose...and ultimately the men and women that have taught us, inspired us and even loved us -- their efforts are cheapened. The very 'arts' themselves lose...we ALL lose something in the process.

"The only thing necesary for evil to win is for the good to stand by and do nothing" - or words to that effect.

Such acceptance would not be tolerated by any profession, from Doctors to janitors to nail technicians (manicurists).
Are we any less a 'professional' than they?

[Disco]

Allow me to add this to the mix. What about a legit Dan holder that lists multiple "High" rankings in several arts. How does he fit into the scheme of things or dosen't he?

[NYCRonin]

Actually, in a way; I am kinda glad we recently had a charlatan pass through here, Mr. Miller. I understand you are THE legitimate dan rank holder of a Korean method I had never heard of before.
I have swung a few blades over the years, even dabbled in Iaido.
I would ask, if you ever have the time; to post some info. about it in the Swordfighting area of this forum, if you have not already.

A liar can be outed delicately, we just have to address ourselves with decorum:
Every time you hear the obvious lie - question it.
Research into claims can be relatively easy to do.
I feel it is our responsability to do so.
Cant we all just get along on this point?

You just have to be 'artful'.
Only the legitimate can 'out' a phony.
Unless you do this, the arts lose their value to the world.
Never forget how hard you worked to EARN your rank.
Give 'reasonable doubt' when possible BUT deny THE LIAR!

The root cause of many posts referring to charlatans in the arts having found their way into this forum recently is easy to figure out. Just spell it out for yourself.

Sorry MOD's - I couldnt resist!

[NYCRonin]

I have known a few very legitimate multiple high ranking Dan holders, from various methods. Usually these legitimate ones are in their late 40's to 60's.
Every multiple high rank is usually as verifiable as a single one.
Those who have a legit high rank in one or more -- but are making claims for ranks that are not legit is also a liar and devoid of honesty and honor.
Of the few I have known personally, they generally mention only the one they are most active in. They go into greater detail as they get to know you.

[Kempo Guy]

Personally I don't care much (as I've trained in systems that have no rank for years).

What I do care about are the poor souls that are students of these frauds... But then again as with anything, "caveat emperor"; they should do their research before joining.


"Anyone who calls himself a master or allows his students to refer to him as 'master' in his presence, isn't a master."
- Takamura Yukiyoshi (1928 - 2000)

KG

[NYCRonin]

I second that statement.
Years ago, my (now) ex-wife was also in the 'arts'. She had been for years and was quite well known in certain circles.
One day the phone rang:
"Hello" I said.
"Yes, this is High Grandmaster Nashid of the **(name deleated to protect the egotistical)**. Please summon your wife to the phone" - said with such a pompus tone that I LAUGHED OUT LOUD right into the reciever. I thought it had to be a joke!
My wife came to the phone, while I calmed to a giggle; and she answered.

After she finished the call, I found out the guy was serious and supposedly always announced himself that way.
He viewed my laughter as 'disrespect' for his high rank and told her he would never call my home again because of it.

If only tele-marketers were that easy to get rid of.

[hardheadjarhead]

Greetings, Mr. Miller...

I've known people with little rank (if at all) who have claimed master status. These compulsive liars are all about. We even had a thread on it here, called "Liars in the Martial Arts". I stupidly managed to get that thread locked down for my somewhat indelicate treatment of a certain individual on this forum...whom you know.

These frauds pose as martial artists, cops, and Spec Ops guys (or some other elite unit). They then try and impress others with tales of their accomplishments and adventures.

Some people build castles in the air, but these jokers MOVE INTO THEM.

While there is a certain tragedy to their miserable, made-up lives...the facade is so dishonorable that it drives the rest of us to distraction.

Welcome to the forum. Your arrival, for at least one person who posts here, must be like the fox entering the henhouse. Where that particular chicken is, I can not guess. He is currently a furtive fowl, or chicken incognito.

Let's see. There's coq au vin, chicken pot-au-feu, croque madame, chicken vesuvio, sweet stuffed capon.....

I can't WAIT to see what is for dinner.


Regards,

Steve Scott

[arnisador]

Please, keep the discussion polite and professional.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

[Marginal]

Originally posted by Master Todd Miller

A person is say a yellow belt, then the next year they are a 7th or 8th degree black belt? Or a person claims rank that is totally false?
They're not just ripping people off, they're teaching them iffy skills that'll probably result in diasaster if they ever get into a situation where they'd need the art they're trying to study in all likelyhood.

[Master Todd Miller]

One more question?

I have this situation in case you did not guess:)

What is the best way to expose? As far as forum rules?

Thanks
Master
Todd Miller

[Robbo]

Anyone who calls himself a master or allows his students to refer to him as 'master' in his presence, isn't a master."
- Takamura Yukiyoshi (1928 - 2000)

I think that says it all.

Rob :asian:

[ABN]

Originally posted by hardheadjarhead
Let's see. There's coq au vin, chicken pot-au-feu, croque madame, chicken vesuvio, sweet stuffed capon.....

I can't WAIT to see what is for dinner.
Regards,
Steve Scott


Steve,
Can I see a whine list please.

Mr. Miller I also bid you welcome. Seeing your initial post brought a smile to my face. I have noticed that since the initial exposure of your "problem" there has been a definite lessening of the strain put on the bandwidth by constant posts all over the forum by he who shall remain nameless. I can't really give any ideas on how to politely or delicately expose someone as my previous post betray a certain lack of tolerance for bar stool commandos (or in this case bar stool black belts). I do wish you well in your quest to deal with your problem and would even venture to guess that your presence here will probably cause the problem to resolve itself.

Seeing you here has renewed my faith in Karma.

Regards,

andy

[Nightingale]

One more question?

I have this situation in case you did not guess

What is the best way to expose? As far as forum rules?

Thanks
Master
Todd Miller

Sir, here are the forum rules with regards to your issue. As long as your posts are within these parameters...



Official Policy on “Fraud” Busting and Credential Verification.

Fraud Busting
Due to its nature, this forum encourages the asking and answering of questions. Many times one member will have questions and concerns about the history, skills, lineage, or paperwork of another member. In other cases, things may be stated on a webpage, flyer or article relating to a member that raises some questions. Sometimes, comments will have been made elsewhere and those issues carried over to MartialTalk.

MartialTalk and its staff encourages the polite and professional search for knowledge. Questions and concerns may be brought up, with the understanding that the other party is under no requirement to answer.

Most questions may be raised within the forums dedicated to a particular art or area of interest. (Example: Kenpo Lineage questions in the Kenpo forum). Others of a more serious note, are to be limited to the “Bad Budo” forum.

Excessive “Inquisitor” style questioning is not allowed and will be subject to administrative action. If you have had to ask a question more than 3 times, you are most likely running the risk of “excessive’.

In addition, “Hot Pursuit” actions will not be tolerated. The “Hot Pursuit” is defined as asking the same or similar questions in multiple threads and/or forums.

Members who become ‘obsessed”, ‘inquisitors’ or ‘interrogators’ will be subject to administrative action. Members who are involved in excessive arguments that disrupt the forum, may be subject to administrative action due to the disruption of the normal operation of this forum

[hardheadjarhead]

What is the best way to expose? As far as forum rules?

Todd,

For that, I refer you to this section of the forum rules that has to do with fraud busting.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8708

It contains this section:

"Excessive “Inquisitor” style questioning is not allowed and will be subject to administrative action. If you have had to ask a question more than 3 times, you are most likely running the risk of “excessive’.

Several here...including myself...might fit this description given our activity recently. I plead mitigating circumstances given the provocation handed us.


MartialTalk is not a forum dedicated to credential checks or outing frauds. Our goal is to provide a friendly, and an open area to exchange ideas, share thoughts, relax and network. Activities that disrupt our primary focus are not encouraged.

This makes sense. We hope for flexibility on the part of the administrators regarding this, however. Several of us have pushed the envelope here, and others have crossed the line. Some who have done this have contributed no small share to this forum.

I note, too the fraternity of those who have dealt with this situation to which we circularly allude. People from several systems have joined together in defending each other's style against the amateurish criticisms of our "Ishmaelite".

This, I submit, is a very good thing at a certain level.

The situation, Mr. Miller, may have resolved itself, now that you're here.

Regards,

Steve Scott

[Karasu Tengu]

hardheadjarhead wrote:
These frauds pose as martial artists, cops, and Spec Ops guys (or some other elite unit). They then try and impress others with tales of their accomplishments and adventures.

What about those who are legit in this catagory who now operate dojo's? Granted they are few and fare between but there are some out there.

[LadyDragon]

These are the type of people the ruin the good reputation of everyone else out there doing things right. They open up McDojo's and teach thing that would probably never be useful out on the streets. Its horrible in my oppinion. The worste part about it is that they manage to get away with it.

[hardheadjarhead]

I see two different things here.

The McDojo guys are often just representative of a situation of poor quality control due to greed. Legitimate instructors (with certification and lineage) go excessively commercial and promote people too quickly. They end up with two year (or less) shake and bake black belts. These guys aren't of the ilk that I described...but they crank out a lot of sub caliber students.

The frauds who I mention are compulsive liars with REAL emotional problems. I don't think they typically run schools. Their lives are too disordered to be a success in that regard. I suppose I could be wrong. My experience is that they're in it merely for the illusion of power.




Regards,

Steve Scott

[dearnis.com]

Two unrelated thoughts...
Honorary ranks are like honorary academic degrees; they have a place, but should be based on substantial service to or on behalf of the arts. They probably should not go to practicing martial; artists.

On phony LE/Military credentials:

Pisses me off. But these are somewhat easier to verify.
What about those who are legit in this catagory who now operate dojo's? Granted they are few and fare between but there are some out there.

I'm a cop and I teach part time. How can people verify that ? Hmmm....check out the car I sometimes drive to class in....
(sorry, had to lighten the mood!)

Chad

[hardheadjarhead]

I awarded an honorary rank to a woman here for her outstanding service to the children of our community. Her daughter is one of my black belts (came up through the ranks).

Nobody, anywhere, has any illusions that this woman is a martial artist or that this is a fraudulent award presented to a person purporting to be something she's not. She displayed many, many noble attributes worthy of a black belt. The award was a symbolic one, presented from me to her in recognition for outstanding achievement (work, I might add, that she continues now for senior citizens).

I didn't do this lightly or flippantly. And I make no apologies for it.

Chuck Norris gave George Bush the elder an honorary black belt. The only people that would argue with that might be the Democrats. A topic for Hannity and Colmes? Nah.

----------------------

On another note.

The charge "McDojo" can be leveled at a legitimate (and good) school by those with a grievance against the instructor. One should keep that in mind. A franchised school or one with multiple branches doesn't necessarily mean it is illegitmate or that the quality of training is bad. A big school with a large student body isn't a reliable indicator that something is amiss.

I've also heard the term "mall dojo" used to indicate that a school is worthless. The premise doesn't support the conclusion here. There are a lot of factors to take into consideration when judging a school...I wouldn't call this one of them.

Regards,


Steve Scott

[pknox]

Originally posted by ABN
Steve,
Can I see a whine list please.


I don't know - as a bit of a food snob, I am very impressed with Steve's obvious knowledge of poultry preparation in the classical French style. It's very comforting to know I have a friend out there if I ever need to worry about how long to marinate my duxelles en canard, or maybe even whether my mirepoix and asparagus pesto will discolor if I add truffle oil (I doubt Steve only speaks bird ;) ).

Seriously, it's good to see people have other interests, and it was pretty funny. Think about some of the slams that have been posted before, and this one was tame by comparison, as well as both entertaining and informative.

And Mr. Miller - I bid you a hearty welcome as well!

[ABN]

Originally posted by pknox
I don't know - as a bit of a food snob, I am very impressed with Steve's obvious knowledge of poultry preparation in the classical French style. It's very comforting to know I have a friend out there if I ever need to worry about how long to marinate my duxelles en canard, or maybe even whether my mirepoix and asparagus pesto will discolor if I add truffle oil (I doubt Steve only speaks bird ;) ).

Seriously, it's good to see people have other interests, and it was pretty funny. Think about some of the slams that have been posted before, and this one was tame by comparison, as well as both entertaining and informative.

And Mr. Miller - I bid you a hearty welcome as well!


Wow, from Escrima to Escoffier, it seems there is quite a bit of diversity in this forum, and your right PK it is a very good thing to see. Also would you be using black or white truffle oil? (I've used the white with a sauteed asparagus with no discoloration...)

andy

[TonyM.]

A good white truffle oil should be fine with your pesto. A little goes a long way. (thank goodness. It's expensive.) Escoffier is the Man!
Welcome Todd. I pass by your way on my way to Maine a couple times a year. Next time time permitting I'll stop and say howdy.Want a good laugh? Next time you get to White River Juntion VT check out the Tai Chi studio on Main St. If class is in session be carefull. The sidewalk is filthy.

[pknox]

Originally posted by ABN
Wow, from Escrima to Escoffier, it seems there is quite a bit of diversity in this forum, and your right PK it is a very good thing to see. Also would you be using black or white truffle oil? (I've used the white with a sauteed asparagus with no discoloration...)

andy

Not to get too off topic, but much like many things in life, it all depends on the asparagus; white asparagus is generally considered a more "delicate" breed, and is thereby much more prone to discoloration - if you are using the white, the best thing to do is add a light truffle oil (as you said) at the last minute possible, and continue to stir, as the aeration seems to prevent all the oil from settling in one place. Granted, sometimes the lighter truffle oil is harder to find, but that situation is improving - there's always Williams Sonoma, and I've even seen it at my local Wegman's. If you do get stuck, a light white wine (perhaps a Chardonnay - mixed with a little almond or vanilla extract) will do in a pinch. Not the same taste, but not altogether displeasing in its own right.

As for the "standard" green asparagus, it is heartier, so you have a little more leeway - this also means you can safely use darker oils. Usually a wee bit of citrus based oil or extract (I use lemon, or occassionally blood orange if I'm feeling especially adventurous and have some in the pantry) will hold off the color change for long enough (hey, if it's tasty, it should be gone by then, right?) In any event, never add avocado, in any form, as that discolors everything, and much like a bad tattoo or an appearance on Jerry Springer, there is very little to be done once you've gone down that road (but if you're by yourself, go for it - quite tasty and an interesting texture, especially with any citrus flavors - I mean the avocado of course, not the tattoo ;) ).

That's it for my Jacques Pepin impersonation...now back to our regularly scheduled programming. :D

[hardheadjarhead]

Andy,

As to whine, are we having meat or fish? Red or white?

Getting back to topic...Mr. Miller wanted to know what I thought he should do regarding this particular individual.

I think he should pesto whip him. That should really truffle his feathers. I filet very strongly about this issue, obviously. I wish we could get pasta this issue, but it keeps popping up.



Regards,

Steve Scott

[Master Todd Miller]

Eric Young trained at our Dover School for a very short time and recieved his yellow belt in Hapkido. He was NEVER given any rank in Kuhapdo or Jeet Kune Do. When he left our school he had no black belt ranking in any Art and that was about one year ago.

About as polite as I get!

Master
Todd Miller

[Jay Bell]

Wow....talk about diplomacy ;)

[ABN]

Steve,
I agree that he should be whipped! and then battered or at least beaten. I think it's fitting treatment for anyone who would behave in such au gratin manner. I believe he will roux the day he chose to follow this course. After all, how much recognition does one knead? He has definitely gone from being in a jam to a pickle. His muddled obsessions have so consomme'd him that any semblance of sanity that he has left is floating in the brie. Perhaps he could be cured? His mind is certainly smoked at this point. Only time will tell, like they say "que shiraz, shiraz." Hopefully this didn't sound too corny or canned, I bid you a fondue!

andy

[ABN]

Originally posted by Master Todd Miller
Eric Young trained at our Dover School for a very short time and recieved his yellow belt in Hapkido. He was NEVER given any rank in Kuhapdo or Jeet Kune Do. When he left our school he had no black belt ranking in any Art and that was about one year ago.

About as polite as I get!

Master
Todd Miller

Funny he never mentioned you in his website biography (soon to be a major straight to video feature once they run the script through the censors and through spell check).

Again Mr. Miller, welcome, thank you for clearing this up. It's good to see a happy ending to this comedy. Hopefully Mr. Young will take this as a strong warning vis avis misrepresentation in the future. ain't the internet a wonderful thing?

andy

[Disco]

Check Please!..... Have to go on a diet now:D

[NYCRonin]

Thank you for confirming that which many of us were already convinced about, Mr. Miller. Since Mr. Young actually used your name in a post about his dubious claims (a case of borrowed authority) only you could have shut him down in his claims, hopefully permanently.

I have been at odds with 'hapki' since his early posts, as have others; and in the long run -- I actually am very glad he showed up. I wound up making cyber-friends here that I probably would not have made otherwise, at least not as quickly. HHJH, ABN and the rest of us who were playing whack-a-mole with him skirted the edge, recieved warnings -- I even recieved a mod warning for my 'spelling' post from earlier on this thread -- but I feel it did much more good than harm for this community.

I also know that the next time a 'hapki-bujitsu' pops out of a hole, the hunt will be on again. Bushido will never be comfortably be mixed with Bullshido. It HAS to be this way for some of us. To be otherwise would be likened to an example I sent to another MTalk member.

I likened it to asking Dr. Hatsumi to stand beside Ashida Kim and Frank Dux, expecting him to accept them as 'equals'; and not ever to take them to task about their lies. Considering the interplay between all involved, I realy dont think anything said was out of line, particularly if one followed it from the beginning.

I do hope, though, that Mr. Miller will not stop visiting, and posting here now that Mr. Young has been exposed. If nothing else -- hapki did us a great service by attracting Mr. Miller to this board. By Mr. Millers membership -- this board is stronger and healthier.

We started with a lemon and wound up with a cool and refreshing lemonaide!

[hardheadjarhead]

Eric Young trained at our Dover School for a very short time and recieved his yellow belt in Hapkido. He was NEVER given any rank in Kuhapdo or Jeet Kune Do. When he left our school he had no black belt ranking in any Art and that was about one year ago.

Thank you, sir.


I agree that he should be whipped! and then battered or at least beaten. I think it's fitting treatment for anyone who would behave in such au gratin manner. I believe he will roux the day he chose to follow this course. After all, how much recognition does one knead? He has definitely gone from being in a jam to a pickle. His muddled obsessions have so consomme'd him that any semblance of sanity that he has left is floating in the brie. Perhaps he could be cured? His mind is certainly smoked at this point. Only time will tell, like they say "que shiraz, shiraz." Hopefully this didn't sound too corny or canned, I bid you a fondue!

Magnifique!

This has made me very, very hungry. I shall excuse myself for the moment and partake of sustenance.

Au revoir!

Etienne.

[Master Todd Miller]

BTW Eric was 5'7" while he was at my school. I hope that he will learn somthing from this whole thing. There is nothing wrong with being a student, white belt, blue belt, black belt or master! There is no need to pretend, just train and the rest will come at the right time.

Take care
Todd M.

[NYCRonin]

As stated, there is no shame. If you 'come to the gate' with truth and sincerity - so many doors can be opened for you.
Perhaps, finally; the truth shall set him free.

[hardheadjarhead]

You're right, Arnisador...that was in poor taste.

I've pulled it.


SCS

[arnisador]

Edited--ignore.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

[lonekimono]

Hey todd ,now don't take this the wrong way
but why do you call yourself Master todd miller?
is it because you want all the people to know that??
or is it because that word that you put in front of your name is like the s on superman's chest ?? you know i'm from the old school
sorry but it seem's that the new breed of karate-ka's today want it like that. don't get all red in the face and catch feeling's over what i said,but if you are a master that what you do and how you act will tell the story.:asian:

[Nightingale]

if someone has earned enough rank to earn a title, I, for one, have no problem with them using it.

[lonekimono]

like i said Kris i'm from the old school sorry if u got upset:confused:

[Nightingale]

I just thought that the way you asked the question was rather rude.

[pknox]

Very good point, Nightingale. I feel the same way, but realize that is not universal.

Just to play devil's advocate, think about this - if someone were a Shihan or even a Soke, you would rightly refer to them as such in correspondence with them, or when describing them to someone else. In traditional Karate circles, at least, if they refer to themselves as such, or demand the title be used, that is looked down upon. As an example, I know an individual who, to my knowledge, is the highest ranking living practitioner in his style (7th dan). When being referred to, he is often called "Shihan" - a title he absolutely deserves. However, he never refers to himself as anything other than "Sensei", which seems to be the way it is done in Japan as well (this is a Japanese style I am referring to).

Usually, the honorific title is also only used within the style itself, as well. A kung fu or Muay Thai stylist would most likely refer to this individual as "Bill", as opposed to Shihan, or even "Sensei." Occasionally, if a person is knowledgable about the honorifics used in the style, they use it even if they don't train with the individual. For example, while I don't study Kung Fu, I would have no problem calling a high ranking individual "Sifu." Not all people feel that way, however. I have called Japanese instructors "Sensei" before, and they have corrected me, saying that while they are a teacher, they are not my teacher, and I should only call my own teacher Sensei. Sometimes they do let you get away with it, such as if you can't pronounce their name correctly. ;)

Note: I'm not saying anyone here is doing any of this, nor using the analogy to refer to a specific person; I'm just making a point.

[lonekimono]

first let me say that if you took it that way i'm sorry
you know something kris i see that you train kenpo and if you know your kenpo(and you should after i looked at you profile)
than you should know that Mr Parker never called himself anything but "ED Parker" now in front of students than it would be the title that comes with the rank.
now pete i'm sorry ,but i'm not a rude man but it seems that if someone said's something that some other person don't like well than it becomes wrong, or someone will say that person who said that is rude, like what was said about me.
people should look at themself's before saying something about somebody else!
now as for what i said it seems to me that kris caught some kind of feeling about it:confused: why,and another thing my life is a open book you can go to the profile and see it i don't care.
you know i'm going to leave it this way,someone said this i wonder who??

"know what you know,know why it's so

[pknox]

George:

My post was not at all directed at you - I was only using an example. I really hope you didn't take it that way, as that surely was not my intention. If you did, I am sorry for the misunderstanding.

[arnisador]

I didn't find the question rude. I think it's reasonable to ask a person about their titles--in some ways, that's waht this thread is about. Of course, it's always best to keep it a general discussion rather than about a particular person!

It's one thing for students to call a person Master, but I too would question whether it's appropriate for someone to sign themselves that way.

In some styles "Master" is given as a title and perhaps it's considered OK amongst themselves. But, my thinking is that if you need to tell people that you're a master, then...maybe you aren't.

There are English precedents as well, such as the "Hon." title that politicians get--one doesn't use it to refer to oneself. But really, "Master" should be a title bestowed by students, I think.

It may be fully appropriate in Mr. Miller's system but as a rule I find it a bit self-important.

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by arnisador
It's one thing for students to call a person Master, but I too would question whether it's appropriate for someone to sign themselves that way.

In some styles "Master" is given as a title and perhaps it's considered OK amongst themselves. But, my thinking is that if you need to tell people that you're a master, then...maybe you aren't.

There are English precedents as well, such as the "Hon." title that politicians get--one doesn't use it to refer to oneself. But really, "Master" should be a title bestowed by students, I think.

It may be fully appropriate in Mr. Miller's system but as a rule I find it a bit self-important.

Not To Defend Mr Miller, as I am sure he can do so for himself.

Yet, I think he choose his name on purpose. His First Post was to put some things straight about certain people making claims in his system.

Now, A question to you Arnisador, do you think it is fine for students to call a person Master? Or should that title come from his peers who are also Masters? Does the person being called master have to correct the students to not call him master? Or should this master just allow the use of the title?

If necessary, I or someone else can split this into a new thread.

:asian:

[Nightingale]

it wasn't the question itself that I found rude, it was the way it was asked.

A simple

"why do you choose to use the title of "master" on this board" would have been sufficient.

the "superman" comment was entirely unnecessary.

[Reprobate]

Well, I'm used to my instructor being referred to by others as Erik Louw sensei, but I've always called him Erik.

I only call some of the Japanese instructors [Yamada Hironobu and Hatakeyama Goro] 'sensei', not out of reverence, but because that is what they are: 'teacher'.
No-one I've met called himself 'sensei' or any other title.

Without wishing to reflect on Mister Miller's background or skill level, to put Master before one's name comes across [to me] as foppish [no insult intended]. Especially in these times when complete incompetents call themselves 'Grandmaster' This and 'Soke' That, I'd just stick with my ranking below my name...

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons
Now, A question to you Arnisador, do you think it is fine for students to call a person Master? Or should that title come from his peers who are also Masters? Does the person being called master have to correct the students to not call him master? Or should this master just allow the use of the title?

I certainly don't want to make this about Mr. Miller. It may be appropriate and accepted in his system.

Speaking more generally, I am in sympathy with what pknox described as the traditional karate approach. I think it is traditional in more than just karate--like sifu and sigung in the CMA, which are largely student-bestowed (it's how one addresses one's teacher and one's teacher's teacher).

It seems more and more common nowadays for "master" rank to be given out part-and-parcel with certain dan rankings. But it doesn't matter so much to me if it comes from students, peers, or higher-ranking instructors--I simply find it unseemly--self-important-- to say "Hi, I'm Master John Doe!" I realize one's ability cannot easily speak for itself on the Net--though knowledge still shines through--but I still can't help but think that a title like "Master" has more meaning between student and teacher. Why would someone want me to know that he or she was a master?

[lonekimono]

thats ok pete i'm sorry about the mix up.
look let me put it this way,about a month ago i was out on the west coast teaching at the gathering, and i met alot of Grandmasters, and masters of the arts and by the way if you want to see some of them go to my site www.ackks.com
and go to pictures and clik on "west coast pictures
tell me you know these people??
anyway these people are down to earth and they don't care,and i'm the same way, now don't get me wrong like i said before if i met mr todd and he was with some of his students i would say hello master todd , why because he was with his students and that the way it should be.
and his students should call him that if thats the way it is in his school.
but in here why:confused: i'm only 48 but the numbers go up not down.

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Reprobate
to put Master before one's name comes across [to me] as foppish [no insult intended]. Especially in these times when complete incompetents call themselves 'Grandmaster' This and 'Soke' That

Yes, that's part of it too--in an age of inflated titles, it sticks out all the more.

[lonekimono]

Hey nightingale do u know what i meant when i said that about superman??
i don't think you do, because if you did than ,oh the he#@ with it

well anyway do you remember this song??

the man said " don't think twice it's alright"

now i'll wait and see if you think thats rude to say also.
i don't know but why are people so ,i better stop here:rofl:

[Jay Bell]

Originally posted by pknox
Very good point, Nightingale. I feel the same way, but realize that is not universal.

Just to play devil's advocate, think about this - if someone were a Shihan or even a Soke, you would rightly refer to them as such in correspondence with them, or when describing them to someone else. In traditional Karate circles, at least, if they refer to themselves as such, or demand the title be used, that is looked down upon. As an example, I know an individual who, to my knowledge, is the highest ranking living practitioner in his style (7th dan). When being referred to, he is often called "Shihan" - a title he absolutely deserves. However, he never refers to himself as anything other than "Sensei", which seems to be the way it is done in Japan as well (this is a Japanese style I am referring to).


This really isn't proper. When speaking *of* a Soke or Shihan, the title may be used. It is incorrect to use the title when speaking *to* that individual. Referring to yourself as anything but a title is silly in my opinion.

"Anyone who refers to himself as a 'master', isn't" - Yuko Takamura, Takamura-ha Shindo Yoshin ryu

However, Korean arts have their own way of doing things -- Multiple Grandmasters and numerous Masters. They have their own thoughts as to proper usage, which is not shared by Japan. To each their own I guess.

[Nightingale]

Originally posted by lonekimono


well anyway do you remember this song??

the man said " don't think twice it's alright"




I'm a little young to remember that song, but I can ask my mom if you like.

;)

[lonekimono]

well nightingale you said it i did'nt let's just leave it at that;)