The Myth of Sparring.

[hapki-bujutsu]

I found this on a wed site. If you disagree with this could you give me
specifics on why. If you do agree is there any reasons not listed that you think goes along. thanks!!


The Myth of Sparring.









Whenever I see sparring in a traditional martial arts school, I want to yell, "STOP THE INSANITY!" What they call sparring is having two students (often with wildly different skill levels) put on boxing gloves and punch each other. Pro boxers do something like this, since it is similar to their (my) sport, but I have NO IDEA what those martial arts instructors are trying to accomplish. It is, after all, impossible to execute most martial arts techniques with your hands taped into fists and covered by padded gloves. When you visit your neighborhood self defense school and see sparring, one of three things is happening:

1) The instructor didn't prepare a lesson for that night and wishes to create the illusion of education while actually killing time.

2) He REALLY, REALLY doesn't like one of those students.

3) He doesn't realize he's not teaching street self defense, which is the scariest of the three.

Do you know why boxers wear gloves? Not to protect the opponent's head, because it does just the opposite. The gloves, along with the tape that goes on the hands first, keep the tiny bones in the hands from getting broken. That is a good strategy for boxing as a sport, because fighters who are less likely to break their hands are more likely to get knock outs. The public loves spectacular knock outs! BUT - practicing fighting with your hands protected leads you to fight in real life as if your hands are protected. You launch one of those boxing style head punches on the street with bare knuckles and you are probably finished.

If you're not training to box, don't bother training like a boxer. By the way, you can't really spar with open hand martial arts techniques anyway. The techniques I teach have no tournament usefulness. They are not about scoring points or impressing judges. They are, almost without exception, illegal in full contact martial arts competition. They are for rendering an attacker UNABLE to continue. Please pay attention to this point: ANY SELF DEFENSE STYLE YOU CAN SPAR WITH IS A GAME or is INEFFECTIVE!

[Robbo]

Oh well,

Here we go again.

Rob

[hapki-bujutsu]

have you seen this before? This is not my thoughts I want to make that clear. I saw it on a web site and thought it would make for a great discussion. I myself spar.

[tshadowchaser]

By the way, you can't really spar with open hand martial arts techniques anyway.
I tend to disagree with this syatement in general. Sparing can be done with open hands. It takes control when goin for the eyes and not drawing to much blood with the finger tips but control is part of sparring. If you are doing full contact sparring why not use a shoto, or a palm technique?
==================
As for the other parts of your post, I agree if your not a boxer ,keep the boxing equipment off.
The cloves or pads , it is thought, will let one know when contact is made so that a technique can be pulled with out full contact being made. They also give a false impression of protection (i most fully agree) . What they do is create poor techniques with sloopy hand/fist closure. IMHO

[Robbo]

As long as you are perfectly aware of what sparring is for and what benefits can be drived from it then it is a useful tool.

If I have a screwdriver and I try to hammer a nail into the wall I probably will throw the screwdriver away because I did not find it very useful.

If I use the screwdriver on a screw properly, then I will put the screwdriver into my toolbox knowing what it does, AND knowing what it will not do.

Rob

[hapki-bujutsu]

As long as you are perfectly aware of what sparring is for and what benefits can be drived from it then it is a useful tool.

If I have a screwdriver and I try to hammer a nail into the wall I probably will throw the screwdriver away because I did not find it very useful.

If I use the screwdriver on a screw properly, then I will put the screwdriver into my toolbox knowing what it does, AND knowing what it will not do.

Rob

will be using this statement. I like this. thanks.

[TonyM.]

I understand the sentiment. IMO sparring needs to be controled and observed so flaws can be corrected. I liken it to the way people jog around here. Easily 80% of the people I observe jogging have such poor running form that they have to be causing more physical harm than gaining aerobic benefit.
Point is if no one corrects your form during sparring you may be developing incorrect body aperatures that are extremely difficult to change after they have become habit.

[Ceicei]

I happen to really enjoy freestyle sparring. I've done point sparring, but it is different.

For me with freestyle sparring, it's a way of learning to do good strikes (punches, uppercuts, hooks, ridges, etc.), kicks (front, side, roundhouse, spinning kicks, etc), sweeps, and blocks.

Anything goes as far as targets are concerned.

What I like is the element of unpredictability and learning how to read what the partner may intend to do. Its learning how to think quickly on our feet, being able to do a series of strikes quickly (that may not necessarily follow the pattern of some techniques), and taking advantages of the partner's "open spaces". It also teaches us the importance of making good blocks. Proper stances that help with motion are important too.

I also like sparring against bigger/stronger partners (I am a female) and finding out what works/doesn't work on them. [So far, I'm the only female in my school who loves to spar.]

I've done sparring with and without hand gloves. I like the martial arts gloves better than the boxing gloves because the MA gloves allow me to be able to move my hands for striking.

However, with protection on, this allows both my partner and me to hit harder and use our power range.

- Ceicei

[Skummer]

Originally posted by hapki-bujutsu

If you're not training to box, don't bother training like a boxer. By the way, you can't really spar with open hand martial arts techniques anyway. The techniques I teach have no tournament usefulness. They are not about scoring points or impressing judges. They are, almost without exception, illegal in full contact martial arts competition. They are for rendering an attacker UNABLE to continue. Please pay attention to this point: ANY SELF DEFENSE STYLE YOU CAN SPAR WITH IS A GAME or is INEFFECTIVE!

What complete nonsense. Does anyone really believe that learning a slew of techniques that you can't practice realistically are going to work when you're attacked on the street?

It's very convenient for people to say that what they do is far too deadly to spar with in order to escape actually proving that what they do works. I'd hope most people realise this kind of attitude is nonsense.

If you have a technique you've never trained to use on a resisting opponent, chances are it won't work like it does in the theoretical practice of the dojo when you actually need it.

[Skummer]

What site was this tripe found on??

[Ceicei]

I searched google, and this is what I found:

http://www.dragonkenpo.com/sparring.htm

I believe this is the same website hapki-bujutsu may have seen. It appears to be a website for Dragon Kenpo Karate Academy.

- Ceicei

[Deaf]

Well everyone is entitiled to an opinion!

There are pro and cons with everything you do.

Sparring can be beneficial if the person(s) are working on how to move to avoid attacks, learning distance, timing and how to give and receive a strike. ( there are probably more that other people can list ) Another is to get the act of actually confronting another person and fighting them. All kinds of mind mojo going on there! :)

Now on the flip side of the coin, sparring can also give the person(s) bad habits such as pulling strikes, attitudes (mainly seen in point or sport style sparring imho) and a general sense that the person(s) can defend themselves adequately on the street (now the last point can be debatable depending on what type of sparring and what the focus of the sparring is).

These are just some of my thoughts on sparring. It is like any tool out there. If you know how to use it properly then it can and will be beneficial. If you don't know how to properly use it then it can probably cause more damage than good.

Deaf

[kenpo12]

Sparring is great as long as you know why you're sparring. Sparring is how you learn to control range and practice timing. We also generally spar with MA gloves or bareknuckle, it just depends.



The techniques I teach have no tournament usefulness. They are not about scoring points or impressing judges. They are, almost without exception, illegal in full contact martial arts competition. They are for rendering an attacker UNABLE to continue. Please pay attention to this point: ANY SELF DEFENSE STYLE YOU CAN SPAR WITH IS A GAME or is INEFFECTIVE!

This is just complete and udder stupidity. If you can't practice your techniques in a sparring enviroment how are you ever supposed to learn the timing and range to employ it on a resisting opponent. If you don't learn how to employ safe techniques while sparring how can you employ deadly ones? C'mon it's 2003, the martial arts mysterious bs is just silly.

[MA-Caver]

I'll agree with the others that Sparring is very useful and necessary when learning combative/defensive MA. Boxing sparring and MA sparring are two different birds altogether.
They both serve the same purpose however... to train the individual on what to do and what NOT to do.
With MA's you HAVE to know exactly what/where/how/when to effectively do your forms/styles/moves/techniques (WHATEVER!) on your opponent for them to have any effect at all in the real world. "Air Karate (and other MA's) isn't going to be effective for very long when you realize in a real-life situation that your opponent isn't going to obilgingly submit to your cool techinque. They're going to be moving and bla bla bla (ok I'm ranting) on an obvious point.

If you see an instructor that is just "ok lets just spar today" without any real purpose other than to "kill time" then you may want to leave the school and find a more serious instructor who has an INSTRUCTIONAL purpose for everything they do in class that given day. Or speak to the instuctor and find-out what the deal is. His answer may surprise you.

Sparring is necessary and sparring is good. I believe everything we learn in our chosen arts would be ineffective without it.

:asian:

[satans.barber]

Sparring is very beneficial. It's good for fitness, teaches you how to move round without falling over your own feet, gets you used to taking a few knocks, teaches you how to exploit opportunities and gets you used to defeat.

Sparring isn't the same thing as fighting, and I think you're mixing up the two.

Dictionary.com suggests:

spar

1. To fight with an opponent in a short bout or practice session, as in boxing or the martial arts.

2. To make boxing or fighting motions without hitting one's opponent.

3. To bandy words about in argument; dispute.

4. To fight by striking with the feet and spurs. Used of gamecocks.

fight

1. To attempt to harm or gain power over an adversary by blows or with weapons. Sports.

2. To engage in boxing or wrestling.

3. To engage in a quarrel; argue: They are always fighting about money.

4. To strive vigorously and resolutely: fought against graft; fighting for her rights.


Ian.

[Zepp]

Sparring has it's limits, and it's important that an instructor tells his students what those limits are. That being said, if it doesn't include sparring, it's not a martial art, and it most definitely doesn't teach you reasonable self-defense.



ANY SELF DEFENSE STYLE YOU CAN SPAR WITH IS A GAME or is INEFFECTIVE!

This statement screams "I run a McDojo."

[Mark L]

Originally posted by hapki-bujutsu


You launch one of those boxing style head punches on the street with bare knuckles and you are probably finished.

If you're not training to box, don't bother training like a boxer. By the way, you can't really spar with open hand martial arts techniques anyway.

A few thoughts on this. I spar, and enjoy it immensely. I wear gloves that leave my fingers free to strike open handed if I want, or more likely, grab on. We occassionally spar without gloves, and it does feel different. I use gloves not to protect my hands but to protect my opponent, and they do the same. So will I be finished if I punch somebody in the head without protection? I don't know, but I bang the heavy bag pretty damn hard without gloves or foot pads and it doesn't incapacitate me at all.

Sparring teaches me tactics, defense, attack/counter attack, etc. We go about half power to the head and pretty strong to the body. So I know what some contact feels like (occassionally i get to feel what a lot of contact feels like:mad: ), and the bag teaches me to apply power to hard things (although admittedly not hard like a skull).

Maybe I'm not as hardcore as some, but I do this for fun as well as for fitness and SD training. I need to go to work every day. I want to be able do things with my family, type on the keyboard, breath through my nose, see out of both eyes, chew steak without dentures, walk without a limp, etc. ;) I can't afford, nor do I wish, to get busted up three times a week so I can convince myself I can throw hard and take a shot on the street.

[Touch Of Death]

Sparring is important. Each sparring session should have a specific purpose. We need to take away the extreem contact to work on controling the distance, good stances, good foot maneuvers, and proper form. Contact should be added but taken away once the students begin to slop. This might take forever, but what else you got going on?

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

That was one of the stupidest articles I've ever read! Everyone HAS to spar to develop effective timing, blocking/evading, distance control, etc.

There is even worse stuff on that website. Did you look at the demo? http://www.dragonkenpo.com/tech.htm

Female defender deflects an overhead knife attack, then without any control of the weapon, ...

"She shuffles (one step) straight ahead, gripping attacker's chin with right hand and base of skull with left hand, ending up behind the attacker. Quickly and forcefully she pulls straight back with her right hand while stabilizing the head with her left hand, snapping the attacker's neck around probably breaking it. She immediately follows up with a rear leg thrust kick to the lower spine."

This is really stupid. This won't break the attacker's neck! Probably won't even hurt! All it will do is turn the attacker around so he is facing you--still holding his knife. Unbelievable.

[Cryozombie]

Originally posted by Zepp
Sparring has it's limits, and it's important that an instructor tells his students what those limits are. That being said, if it doesn't include sparring, it's not a martial art,

So my Ninpo is not a martial art because we do not spar?

I agree the original post was stupid and arrogant, but let me counter some of the above arguments with this scenario. Please forgive my opinion, as I am still fairly early in my training, and this is based on my opinions of the art I am learning and the techniques I know...

Lets assume I spar with someone, and do not limit my attacks to ONLY punching/kicking which, in our art (at least where I am at now) are not the main way of damaging your opponent, they are only "softening" and distraction techniques... as in "As you focus on my punch to your face, you fail to notice I am breaking your anke and knee..." (WAY oversimplified, but ok, you get the idea)

Ok... so as I was saying... we spar. I see three possible outcomes.

1) I execute a technique properly, and break your arm and wrist, but got to spar.
2) I fake execution and dont "commit" to the move, and you continue to fight and beat me down because you think my move "Didnt work on me" even tho I was only stopping it so as not to break your arm and wrist.
3) I refrain from using any of our damaging techniques and only strike and kick. Am I really practicing my art then?

The only way "Sparring" would work in my art (again, in my opinion, at my level) is if I was doing it with someone who studies the same art, and is of sufficiant higher level to recognize the techniques I am attempting to use, and then "fakes" reaction to my uncommited attacks as if they were fully executed, ala Scenario 2 above.

And No, I am not saying "My art is too deadly to spar with" I just dont feel that sparring would be an effective tool for me to learn my art. It limits my toolbox too much I think. Most of the "You need to learn how to react to a puch or kick" things you guys said, an the distancing and footwork stuff that TOD mentioned above, is incorporated into our Randori excercises...

I think that for many arts, Randori may be an adequate replacement for sparring.

I'm curious, (really, Im not making a point here, Im asking) How do you spar in Aikido? or Judo? Or is it all Randori?

[Zepp]

Originally posted by Technopunk
Lets assume I spar with someone, and do not limit my attacks to ONLY punching/kicking which, in our art (at least where I am at now) are not the main way of damaging your opponent, they are only "softening" and distraction techniques... as in "As you focus on my punch to your face, you fail to notice I am breaking your anke and knee..." (WAY oversimplified, but ok, you get the idea)

Ok... so as I was saying... we spar. I see three possible outcomes.

1) I execute a technique properly, and break your arm and wrist, but got to spar.
2) I fake execution and dont "commit" to the move, and you continue to fight and beat me down because you think my move "Didnt work on me" even tho I was only stopping it so as not to break your arm and wrist.
3) I refrain from using any of our damaging techniques and only strike and kick. Am I really practicing my art then?

The only way "Sparring" would work in my art (again, in my opinion, at my level) is if I was doing it with someone who studies the same art, and is of sufficiant higher level to recognize the techniques I am attempting to use, and then "fakes" reaction to my uncommited attacks as if they were fully executed, ala Scenario 2 above.

Some form of sparring is still better than nothing at all. To reply to Scenario #3, yes you would still be practicing your art. Maybe not to your full potential, but that's not really possible in any art without harming your partner. An important part of all martial arts, Ninpo included, is learning control. Sparring helps you develop this as well.

Scenario #2 works just fine if you're sparring with someone you train with regularly in the same style. You can also always spar with submission rules. (When the joint lock gets to be too much for someone, they tap the ground or their body.)

Ok, I take back that statement about it not being a martial art without sparring. But without sparring in some form, the self-defense aspect of any art is purely theoretical.

[Skummer]

Given some of the posts on this thread, I started to wonder about something...

If you practice a style that uses dangerous techniques, that is, too dangerous to do full on sparring with, are you really learning how to apply these techniques on a fully resisting opponent?

Has anyone here used a technique that they've never sparred with, such as a joint destruction, in a real, full-contact fight?

It would be my guess that modifying your techniques to make them safe enough to use in full on sparring (ala judo) would teach you more about how to apply them in a real combative situation.

[Zepp]

Originally posted by Skummer
Has anyone here used a technique that they've never sparred with, such as a joint destruction, in a real, full-contact fight?
Yes. Gouging of certain bodily orifices for one. (See my post on on the Bullies thread in the General Self-Defense forum.)


Originally posted by Skummer
It would be my guess that modifying your techniques to make them safe enough to use in full on sparring (ala judo) would teach you more about how to apply them in a real combative situation.

I agree. That applies to strikes and destructive blocks too, not just to joint locks. A strike to a vital area (such as the throat) can be thrown at full power, with full extension of the limb, but you can adjust the distance between your body and your partner's body so that it stops just short of its target. You just have to be sparring with a partner who understands what you're doing. A destructive block can also be adjusted slightly for your partner's safety, such as turning your hand during a knife hand block so that the back of your hand hits their wrist instead of the knife edge.

These are just a couple examples.

[satans.barber]

Originally posted by Skummer
Given some of the posts on this thread, I started to wonder about something...

If you practice a style that uses dangerous techniques, that is, too dangerous to do full on sparring with, are you really learning how to apply these techniques on a fully resisting opponent?

Has anyone here used a technique that they've never sparred with, such as a joint destruction, in a real, full-contact fight?

It would be my guess that modifying your techniques to make them safe enough to use in full on sparring (ala judo) would teach you more about how to apply them in a real combative situation.

What do you suggest as a remedy to this?

I've thought about this quite a lot in the past, and as far as I can see there isn't one. The only solution would be to actually break your training partner's bones for example, on purpose, which isn't acceptable.

I think people just need to trust in their training and hope that they can adapt it or take it to completion if they ever are really attacked.

Ian.

[Nightingale]

Personally, I've found sparring to be extraordinarily helpful.

1. It teaches you what to do when someone's fist is flying at your face: REACT. do something, even if it is just to duck.

2. It gets you used to the feeling of someone's fist flying at your face, so you don't freeze up when it actually happens. You know to move.

3. It helps the folks who are afraid of getting hurt. Its a non-threatening environment that helps you work on reaction.

4. It helps the women who are afraid of hitting.


Is it all the preparation you'd need for a street fight: HELL NO!

Its a tool, to be used in conjunction with many other tools. That's all.

[Cryozombie]

Can someone Define Sparring and Randori... because a lot of the stuff you guys list as Sparring or benefits of Sparring we do in Randori...

Is my confusion just a mixup of terms?

[Marginal]

I was under the impression that randori was typically used in active practice in grappling arts while sparring was used to describe active practice of technique in striking arts. Not a whole lotta difference outside of that.

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Has anyone here read either "Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Theory and Technique" by Renzo and Royler Gracie or "Mastering Ju Jitsu" by Renzo Gracie? In both of those books, there are about three pages which should really be read by EVERY martial artist regardless of whether they want to grapple or not. Those pages are the ones discussing the "fundamental dilema of martial arts training"

The premise is that there are two types of martial arts training methods:

1) The Aiki Jujitsu and Traditional Martial Arts method is to learn a large repertoire of deadly and dangerous techniques. The techniques are so dangerous they must be practiced with control, without actually hitting targets, and/or with a cooperating partner in order to avoid frequent serious injury. The advantage of this training method is that the student learns movements that could quickly and decisively end a fight. The disadvantage is that the student never actually executes the movements properly in a training environment. Examples are eye-strikes, gouges, bone-breaking strikes, throat strikes.

2) The Judo, BJJ and Boxing method is to limit the techniques to those that can be executed full-speed and full-power against a resisting partner. The advantage is that by eliminating dangerous and deadly techniques, the student can spar for much longer periods without injury and can practice their techniques in a much more realistic manner against a fully resisting partner. The disadvantage is that the student does not include those dangerous strikes in their repertoire and may not be prepared to defend against them.

I think this analysis can teach us much about our training and about how we determine what works and what doesn't

[LegendaryWarrior]

In response to "The Myth of Sparring". There is nothing wrong with sparring like a boxer or sparring in general. While it is true that most martial techniques can not be of any use while wearing taping and padding, sparring is not only a good way to livin' things up a bit, but it also help you as an instructor weed out those who are really committed to the art you teach. Sparring (also) help you (the teacher) to redesign and manipulate the skills in which you have taught you students. For example, Bruce Lee's JKD does this in thier teachings by getting rid of the unuseful and using what can be used.
Not every technique in every martial art can be used in a real fight or sparring. It is important to be flexible. To learn to adapt to every situation with the greatest of ease (when possible). Another example is the art myself and a few good fighters I came across over the years developed called JSD (Jesuit Self Defense). This style was specifically based on karate and other styles like ninjitsu, greco roman wrestling, kung-fu, and tai chi chuan (the main blends in the system). I trained with these fellows and learned what I could. The latest fighting form included is boxing (which is being taught to me by a golden gloves participant). Therefore, I will be sparring just like a boxer.
My whole point is that open mindedness is the best thing for anyone who is serious about his/her martial arts training. Despite what some money taking teachers are out for.

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by hapki-bujutsu .....
Do you know why boxers wear gloves? Not to protect the opponent's head, because it does just the opposite. The gloves, along with the tape that goes on the hands first, keep the tiny bones in the hands from getting broken. That is a good strategy for boxing as a sport, because fighters who are less likely to break their hands are more likely to get knock outs. The public loves spectacular knock outs! BUT - practicing fighting with your hands protected leads you to fight in real life as if your hands are protected. You launch one of those boxing style head punches on the street with bare knuckles and you are probably finished.

May be you should spar bareknuckles then? Please report back to let us know how it goes then. :D

[Ceicei]

Originally posted by Technopunk
Can someone Define Sparring and Randori... because a lot of the stuff you guys list as Sparring or benefits of Sparring we do in Randori...

Is my confusion just a mixup of terms?

Technopunk,

Ah yes. It is a difference of terms.

Randori is generally used by grappling or non-striking arts [judo, jujitsu, aikido, etc.] and sparring is used by the striking arts [taekwondo, kenpo, etc.] to accomplish the same thing: Two people working together (either cooperating or resisting) in a controlled environment to practice certain movements.

- Ceicei

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

If you don't spar, how do you know if you can make even a limited part of your art work against a RESISTING oponent?

If you don't spar, you are only pretending to do martial arts.

[Kempo Guy]

A lot of the sparring I've seen is a game of tag... very little intent, imho.

For me "sparring" is part of the training process, not a means to an end. It is a way to train your fear reactivity, i.e. how to cope with your flinch reflex and adrenal response. This type of training (again imho) should be done at various speeds, such as slow movement sparring (without changing physics, i.e. track someones head by changing your force vector in the middle of your strike, which would be impossible at full speed); to full contact training wearing something like Tony Blauer's 'High Gear'.

Again, this type of training should not replace your other training (including solo forms training), but should be an important aspect of your training.


If you don't spar, you are only pretending to do martial arts.
I disagree. In many (if not most) traditional Japanese sword arts (I am speaking of koryu arts, i.e. old school arts pre meiji restoration) sparring was not part of their regular training. Their training consisted almost entirely of kata training, whether done solo or with a partner. However, once at an advanced level the teacher would often switch movements of the kata mid-stream when teaching their students. Keep in mind these kata were performed with wooden bokken at full speed and intent, in order to teach their students to switch techniques without thinking. This was sometimes referred to as 'oyo waza'.
In any event, I wouldn't hesitate to call these practitioners "martial artists".

KG

[fringe_dweller]

Originally posted by LegendaryWarrior
it also help you as an instructor weed out those who are really committed to the art you teach

Don't know that I agree with this... Most people enjoy sparring. I would think that making your class work basics for a month would find out who was serious and who was not.

Respectfully

[Makalakumu]

When I was a gup, I sparred regularly and acheived some success in tournament fighting. I won two regional tournaments and was greatly impressed by the accolades and respect from my peers. During that time, I also worked as a security guard where physical confrontations were a regular part of my job. I can tell you without a doubt that my ability to deal with these physical confrontations was inversely proportional to my ability with sparring. The more I sparred, the less I was able to handle a real aggressor.

Why? Instinct. Sparring trains your instincts to do certain techniques that do not harm your opponent. Plain and simple - otherwise the ranks of martial artists would be greatly diminished. My decision, not to spar as much. Once a month is my personal guideline.

I still teach sparring though. I tell my students that it is fun. It will teach them how to move quickly and to overcome any fear of striking. It will teach them how to take a strike. And, yes, my students look horrible when they spar - coming from a person who has won tournaments - and this is okay with me. Hell, I don't have the skill I used to have. But it IS a game. To get good you need to practice. I tell them that if they want to train for tournaments, fine, I will train you, but remember the more you train these techniques the more likely they will come out in a real confrontation.

As far as sparring and randori goes, I believe there is a difference. Sparring is a game played to score points. Randori is a partially random situation created by the instructor in order to practice techniques in varying degrees of fight time. In my honest opinion randori is more important to self defense then sparring, consequently, we do randori almost every class.

In closing, I would like to state that sparring and randori are both important to training. They are a substitute for real fighting though. Saying this, I advise caution with sparring. A good street fighter will nearly always take the sparring champ to the cleaners because of instinct. Ask yourself, what techniques do you want in your instinctual repetoire? And, please remember, there is more to a martial artist then their ability to fight.

upnorthkyosa

[Marginal]

Does beg the question,

Rather than nodding sagely and saying sparring doesn't help you in a fight, why not simply improve the sparring in class so that it better approximates a real fight?

Why lock yourself in a tradition that you consider useless?

[Ceicei]

Originally posted by upnorthkyosa
As far as sparring and randori goes, I believe there is a difference. Sparring is a game played to score points. Randori is a partially random situation created by the instructor in order to practice techniques in varying degrees of fight time. In my honest opinion randori is more important to self defense then sparring, consequently, we do randori almost every class.


Point sparring, the method you talked about, may not serve too much towards self defense.

I prefer freestyle sparring that allows me to try out short techniques quickly under stress, the ability to learn to think fast, adjust strikes/counter strikes and kicks, and find out what works or doesn't work. Some techniques look fancy, but may fail when put under duress with free style sparring.

Ask yourself, what techniques do you want in your instinctual repetoire? And, please remember, there is more to a martial artist then their ability to fight.

I agree with you, there is more to being a martial artist than just the ability to fight. Some people lose sight of that.

- Ceicei

[Gotkenpo?]

i took a look at that guys website...what a ****ing joke he is.

[tshadowchaser]

I like to see my student spar once in a while .
I'm able to see i their techniques are improveing and if they are finding new avenues to use what I shoe them, or if thy only fall into old habits.
Sparring against more than one opponet helps keep it real at times.

[chaosomega]

It is, after all, impossible to execute most martial arts techniques with your hands taped into fists and covered by padded gloves.

Try wearing grappling gloves instead. They provide grasping and finger mobility while still retaining an effective amout of padding. DUH!!! :P

[Karasu Tengu]

OK it looks like everyone has thier opinion on sparing and randori (the term I use). All of our techniques are designed to kill the enemy. You know Martial (war) Arts. However, from reading this thread the majority of you only mention 1-on-1 encounters. So how do you handle multiple attackers say 5-on-1? You don't see this in UFC or tournaments. Why? This is what we do (I now study Ninpo [8 years] but I have held Shodan rank in Shotokan and Aikido) since this is more likely the real world case now days. It is controlled and everything is pulled to a certain extent depending on the student's training level, understanding of certain principles and thier level of acceptance. Shodan and above hit each other rather forcefully in real time but not enough to cause any damage they have not trained to accept. It teaches the same ideas as "sparring" but in vastly different vocabulary.

BTW did anyone catch the program Xtreme Martial Arts on the Discovery Channel yesterday. Pretty interesting. I particulary chuckeld at the weapons and "point sparing". National Champions? Uh ok. But what do I know, I'm a (military) combat vet.

[Makalakumu]

I cut down on my free sparring a few years ago and focused on drills and randori. Now, when I face multiple opponents (in sparring) my techniques connect and its enough to drop them out of the fight. Not enough to really hurt them. Still, the habits! I can see how it could really be a detriment in a real fight. Questons, questions, questions, that is what the training is about, I guess.

[cfr]

Originally posted by upnorthkyosa
I can tell you without a doubt that my ability to deal with these physical confrontations was inversely proportional to my ability with sparring. The more I sparred, the less I was able to handle a real aggressor.

Why? Instinct. Sparring trains your instincts to do certain techniques that do not harm your opponent. Plain and simple - otherwise the ranks of martial artists would be greatly diminished.


Does anyone else agree with this? Im curious because Ive wondered this often. Having never sparred (approx 6 more months) I have nothing to base an opinion on. But what Ive often wondered is that Ive read several times "you fight how you train" and if thats the case then couldnt sparring make you develop some bad habits? From what I know(again Im still green) nobody actually elbows to the face, kicks to the nads, tries to break a knee with a good kick while sparring. Im sure a very select few are out there trying these things while sparring but they are probably much more the exception than the rule. So couldnt you develop the habit of(for lack of better words) "holding back" while sparring? Personally Im pretty excited to start sparring for the simple fact that Ive yet to have unscripted punches coming to my face and want to learn to not freeze up. But the above mentioned point also makes sense. Any thoughts? The above quote seems logical to me.:confused:

[Chuck]

Let's go back...Cus Amato...Angelo Dundee...whoever started boxing and sparring:"Take out the body and the head follows."

I don't spar by going at someone's head. With or without gloves, I go for "soft targets. Eyes, throat sternum, belly, groin, muscle groups and nerve bundles, joints...the head is too hard. You'll break your hands.

[Marginal]

Originally posted by cfr
Does anyone else agree with this? Im curious because Ive wondered this often. Having never sparred (approx 6 more months) I have nothing to base an opinion on. But what Ive often wondered is that Ive read several times "you fight how you train" and if thats the case then couldnt sparring make you develop some bad habits? From what I know(again Im still green) nobody actually elbows to the face, kicks to the nads, tries to break a knee with a good kick while sparring. Im sure a very select few are out there trying these things while sparring but they are probably much more the exception than the rule. So couldnt you develop the habit of(for lack of better words) "holding back" while sparring?

Hitting air and doing drills against nonresisting opponents has a great chance of encouraging bad habits and fostering unrealistic techniques.

[cfr]

Originally posted by Marginal
Hitting air and doing drills against nonresisting opponents has a great chance of encouraging bad habits and fostering unrealistic techniques.

Great. Any opinion on my question?

[SenseiBear]

Originally posted by cfr
Does anyone else agree with this? Im curious because Ive wondered this often. Having never sparred (approx 6 more months) I have nothing to base an opinion on. But what Ive often wondered is that Ive read several times "you fight how you train" and if thats the case then couldnt sparring make you develop some bad habits?

Yes - absolutely. You are how you train. When you do something thousand of times, train it into muscle memory, this is how you will likely react under similar stimulus. If you train for sparring, sparring is what you will do...

Now, that said, we do spar - not well, as that is not what we train for, but it is valuable - best way I know to learn not to lead with your head, timing, distance... Learning to see openings, how to deliver and take a blow... all those mentioned above. But I try to limit it to maybe 6 classes a year. What we do far more often (most classes) is a one step self defense drill - an attacker makes a know committed attack, slow with no resistance at beginning levels to allow you to train a series of techniques in defense of the attack, and as your skill increases the attacks move to full speed and power, and before black belt, your attacker will be countering your defense techniques as well. At the Black belt test, students need to defend against an attacker throwing multiple hand and foot techniqes, free form at full power. Attackers are gloved to protect the student, and black belt judges are around to determine when the attacker has been incapacitated - this is done repeatedly against one attacker, and then against two or more attackers -

but sparring every once in a while is fun, and does have things to teach - I just wouldn't over do it if your training focus is self defense.

SB

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by SenseiBear
Yes - absolutely. You are how you train. When you do something thousand of times, train it into muscle memory, this is how you will likely react under similar stimulus. If you train for sparring, sparring is what you will do...

Now, that said, we do spar - not well, as that is not what we train for, but it is valuable - best way I know to learn not to lead with your head, timing, distance... Learning to see openings, how to deliver and take a blow... all those mentioned above. But I try to limit it to maybe 6 classes a year. What we do far more often (most classes) is a one step self defense drill - an attacker makes a know committed attack, slow with no resistance at beginning levels to allow you to train a series of techniques in defense of the attack, and as your skill increases the attacks move to full speed and power, and before black belt, your attacker will be countering your defense techniques as well. At the Black belt test, students need to defend against an attacker throwing multiple hand and foot techniqes, free form at full power. Attackers are gloved to protect the student, and black belt judges are around to determine when the attacker has been incapacitated - this is done repeatedly against one attacker, and then against two or more attackers -

but sparring every once in a while is fun, and does have things to teach - I just wouldn't over do it if your training focus is self defense.

SB

I couldn't agree more completely with this post!!

7sm

[Karasu Tengu]

Ditto!

[TonyM.]

My experience has tallied upnorthkyosa's. For me sparring is a test of techniques not really a training method.