Differences between To-Shin Do and the Bujinkan?

[pknox]

As we seem to have some members that represent both approaches, I'd love to see some comparisons made between the two orgs, reflecting their approach to techniques, philosophy, ranking methodology, or whatever else comes to mind.

[Deaf]

Even thought both arts are similar since SKH is basically taking what he learned within the Bujinkan and "distilling" it to be more effective in todays world (his words, not mine nor my belief) there are some differences in their approach in both mental aspects and physical aspects.

A quick note:

When I compared to the Bujinkan, I am comparing to my knowledge of what I have been taught. This in NO WAY means that every shidoshi, shihan or Soke teach it this way or that way or emphasize this over that. These opinions are my own and my personal observations only. So please keep that in mind when I discuss within this thread.


In ToShinDo it is my belief that they do not stress kamae as much as the Bujinkan does. Now each instructor within the Bujinkan has their own way of teaching kamae however from my observances, they all have similarities and observe the crucial "core philosopy" of the kamaes.

When in ToShinDo, kamae was mainly taught as a "mindset" or "feeling"...Ichimonji No Kamae was not "Ichimonji No Kamae" but "Water Position" a receiving posture. Here in Bujinkan land, ichimonji no kamae is ichimonji no kamae. Now some shidoshi will teach a certain "mindset" or "feeling" associated with the kamae and some will simply tell you that the kamae is just a posture that you take up going from one technique to another etc.

I do not remember any lessons where we have specifically gone over kamae once in ToShinDo. However in the Bujinkan (at least in the lower ranks) it is stressed daily.

Another difference, at least from what I have learned from some friends at the ToShinDo Hombu, is that weapons are not longer taught within the cirriculum. You actually have to join their Black Belt Club (they have a special 45 minute class once a month where they might go over weapons) or join their Shadow of Iga program where they claim they teach traditional Bujinkan (I cannot verify nor deny this). Now from about 90% of all Bujinkan that I have seen, weapons are an important part of the cirriculum starting with hanbo, bo and sword. (I'm sure this varies from shidoshi to shidoshi as well).

From my viewpoint, ToShinDo really stresses more of a mental preparation type training than physical. Due to their stressing how to "react" during a confrontation type drills.

Just a few samples which I hope helps out a bit.

Remember, these opinions and/or comments are in no way intended to talk bad about SKH nor his ToShinDo system. It is just a comparision between his system that I have seen and trained with compared with my current knowledge and training in the Bujinkan. The best way that you can really find out is to try both styles for yourself and then form your own opinion about them.

Deaf

[FL-Mac]

When in ToShinDo, kamae was mainly taught as a "mindset" or "feeling"...Ichimonji No Kamae was not "Ichimonji No Kamae" but "Water Position" a receiving posture. Here in Bujinkan land, ichimonji no kamae is ichimonji no kamae. Now some shidoshi will teach a certain "mindset" or "feeling" associated with the kamae and some will simply tell you that the kamae is just a posture that you take up going from one technique to another etc.

I do not remember any lessons where we have specifically gone over kamae once in ToShinDo. However in the Bujinkan (at least in the lower ranks) it is stressed daily.I'm just getting started with To Shin Do and have no experience in other MAs, but here's what I know.

In my particular level, I hear "earth posture" more often than "shizen no kamae" (which doesn't exactly translate to "earth posture" if I translate correctly ... more like "natural"?), but the Shidoshi will occasionally use the Japanese. It is described as a mindset, but one with specific physical attributes. We've never specifically devoted a class to it, but it's gone over in just about every class. I do remember that one of the trainers explained it to me one-on-one in one of my first classes (if not the first one). Also, I don't think it's exactly like the shizen no kamae of Bunjinkan. From what I've seen searching the web, in Bunjinkan your hands are at your sides. In To Shin Do your hands are up in front of you. Otherwise, it looks very similar.

In the upper classes, the instructor uses the Japanese terms more often. Usually it will be called a "street" ichimonji (or whatever), though ... not the pure traditional form. This makes a lot of sense to me. I mean, if someone's picking a fight and you move into a traditional hira no kamae they're gonna think that you're nuts ... or up to something. No need to get their guard up. ;)

Although I'm not involved in the program, the dojo offers something called "Shadow Warriors" ... I think that this would be more akin to traditional Bunjinkan. But before I get flamed to death, I'm not involved in either, so I honestly don't know. The word "Bunjinkan" has not come up in my experience at the dojo.

Now, hopefully I'm not getting into politics here, but as I understand it To Shin Do is not Bunjinkan, but is fairly closely related. The principles of Bunjinkan applied specifically to modern threats. Not to say either is better or more effective.

Anyways, that's my understanding. I might actually be totally off the mark, if so please correct me. Like I said, I'm just getting started in all this.

-Mac

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

http://www.bujinkan-france.net/bjk/article.php3?id_article=133

And it's BUJINkan.:asian: But you can ignore that part about not moving before your opponent does, because that's the point of what the author often refers to as yugen no seikai.

[FL-Mac]

And it's BUJINkan.
Very sorry, rookie mistake. Interesting link.

[Cryozombie]

FL-Mac,

Welcome aboard!

Feel free to read, post, read and post, etc etc... don't worry about making stupid mistakes, esp spelling errors. We all do it from time to time...

No one will hurt you too bad for it. ;)

[Gina]

I guess one reason that the Kamae are different in TO-SHIN DO to Bujinkan is due to the fact that Bujinkan emphasises a more traditional training approach, where as TO-SHIN DO is more geared to todays western society

In the old days of feudal Japan when you took up a kamae, be it Ichimonji, Jumonji etc, you knew it was a fight and so did your enemy. Your enemy may have a sword raised ready to cut you down, or be armed with some other weapon, but whatever, his intention was to kill or at least seriously hurt you. You lived in a violent society where self defence was an everyday thing. There was little if any chance of calming your enemy down and being able to walk away, and whether you lived or died depended very much on how good you were at defending yourself, which sometimes meant killing your opponent.

Today our society thankfully, is completely changed. No longer are there people wandering around with the right to kill you or your family on a whim. And of course we also have various laws that state that we must use reasonable force to defend ourselves.
Therefore if we are attacked, unlike in the old days when we might cut our enemy down with a sword, we might first try to deescalate the violence. Sure I might still want to take up a kamae for safety sake, but I don't want a kamae where my opponent might perceive it as being threatening. I might take up an ichimonji, but my front and rear hand might be open, to put over the message 'stay back' or 'calm down' and I might actually be saying something like 'I really don't want to fight you. You go your way and i'll go mine and lets forget this whole thing'.
Sure if suddenly my opponent throws a punch or kick I can still defend as I am technically in ichimonji no kamae.

Can you imagine an incident where I have had to defend myself and its caught on CCTV and the case goes to court. Using the Bujinkan style classical kamae could be construed as me wanting to fight because i have taken up this martial arts posture, where as if I keep my hands open it looks like I actually don't want to fight. Interestingly in the UK police this type of open handed ichimonji is taught to police officers to deescalate confrontational situations.

So is the classical Kamae taught in TO-SHIN DO?
I guess from a beginners point of view the ideas of the godai are emphasised as well as the non classical kamae. This of course does not mean that An Shu Hayes does'nt teach classical kamae any more. From black belt, techniques of Koto Ryu, Gyokko Ryu, Takagi Yoshin Ryu etc are taught, and indeed some of these are demonstrated on the TO-SHIN DO DVD sets for comparison with the more modern adaptions.

In the UK Northampton dojo, The TO-SHIN DO kamae are taught for beginners, but sometimes the classical kamae are demonstrated so that the student can understand where the kamae developed from, and to give them an understanding of this great legacy we are all part of.

[Don Roley]

I guess one reason that the Kamae are different in TO-SHIN DO to Bujinkan is due to the fact that Bujinkan emphasises a more traditional training approach, where as TO-SHIN DO is more geared to todays western society

Wrong.

Have you ever met Hatsumi? I mean talked to him, trained with him and shared tea with him? I have trained with Hayes, talked with Hayes and been a member of his orginization. Can you say the same about the leader of the orginization you have just made such a sweeping generalization about?

In the Bujinkan I train in here in Japan, we emphisize learning the lessons of the past in order to apply those lessons to the future. We learn the way things were done, the reasons they were done the way they were and then try to apply those lessons to the realities we see around us. I apply things to the reality that I have been exposed to and expect to encounter. In other words, I take what I learn about things like hoko no kamae and think about what the legal aspect of being in it based on what I know of the realities of my home country. Today I have trained in both pistol and rifle, as well as things to help me legally in the case of me meeting violence.

I do not want to speak ill of Hayes or see a war between the Bujinkan or the people that have choosen to follow Hayes instead. But I cannot be the only person to see the mistake you have written and see that there is a subtle insult implied in what you wrote above about the Bujinkan.

I do not train for tradition's sake. I learn what has gone before to apply those lessons to the present. I have learned far more than I think you ever will and I do not forgive those that tear down those that I respect just to build themselves up. I ask you again, have you ever shared tea with Hatsumi and trained with him in Japan? If not, then I advise you refrain from the generalizations you have said about the course he wishes his orginization to take or I will not be the only one to counter you.

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I guess one reason that the Kamae are different in TO-SHIN DO to Bujinkan is due to the fact that Bujinkan emphasises a more traditional training approach, where as TO-SHIN DO is more geared to todays western society
Who told you?


There was little if any chance of calming your enemy down and being able to walk away,
Ever heard about Tsukahara Bokuden and the bragging swordsman on the boat?


Sure I might still want to take up a kamae for safety sake, but I don't want a kamae where my opponent might perceive it as being threatening. I might take up an ichimonji, but my front and rear hand might be open, to put over the message 'stay back' or 'calm down' and I might actually be saying something like 'I really don't want to fight you. You go your way and i'll go mine and lets forget this whole thing'.
What if I told you that kamae is a principle thing more than a technique thing?

[Satt]

Wrong.

Don, I will never get bored reading posts while you are still here. LOL. It is nice to see you here still.

Jason

[Cryozombie]

Can you imagine an incident where I have had to defend myself and its caught on CCTV and the case goes to court. Using the Bujinkan style classical kamae could be construed as me wanting to fight because i have taken up this martial arts posture, where as if I keep my hands open it looks like I actually don't want to fight. Interestingly in the UK police this type of open handed ichimonji is taught to police officers to deescalate confrontational situations.

I think you mistake the use of Kamae in the arts as well... Kamae are "transitional" stances, not somthing you assume at the start of a fight. (Unless you are doing somthing like you described, such as putting on airs of "deescalation") Most fights will begin with you in a "neutral" stance... Guest instructors from japan have come to my school a we are being taught now to assume a "stance" that is slightly bent and the knees and a bit forward, in an almost "relaxed old west gunfighter" position... ready to react, but to the casual observer, just standing there.

[Gina]

I am glad that so many people here on the web understand that the classical techniques, kamae etc can be used in a more conventional way today in the 21st century. And to be honest this is probably because you guys have some years of experience with this art. But from a beginners point of view, and remember we are talking about beginners, some one new into the art never having tasted ninjutsu and is completely unaware of who Dr Hatsumi is, it is good to teach them something that they can immediately relate to, as opposed to the traditional kamae seen in other dojos.
Many of our students work in the health profession and as such can immediately identify with the type of kamae used in the beginning stages of TO-SHIN DO.
Sure we show the traditional kamae too, but morally we feel we must teach what is legal, and frankly to teach a new beginner say Jumonji in his first few lessons and then having to use it on the street may get him into trouble, as it could be interpreted as being aggressive, and instead of being able to deescalate the incident, it could actually enflame it.
And yes I know that kamae are transitional things and actually techniques in themselves, but we can explain that to students latter, not in lesson 1. Let them get the basics first before we complicate matters.
As for Ninravus and the Bokuden thing, well any one knows that feudal Japan was more violent than todays western world, so what point is he trying to make.
Is the UK or USA in the middle of a civil war where thousands are being killed on the battle field, do we have men walking around that have the right to kill you and your family with no retribution, can the local lord burn down your village? Yes the 21st century may not be one of peace, but at least today unlike the feudal age peasant, we have rights, freedoms and safety.

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

some one new into the art never having tasted ninjutsu and is completely unaware of who Dr Hatsumi is, it is good to teach them something that they can immediately relate to,...which, I can assure you, is not ninjutsu.


Sure we show the traditional kamae too, but morally we feel we must teach what is legal, and frankly to teach a new beginner say Jumonji in his first few lessons and then having to use it on the street may get him into trouble, as it could be interpreted as being aggressive, and instead of being able to deescalate the incident, it could actually enflame it.And Cho Gyokko wept...:uhohh::wah:
No offense but that was the most ridiculous thing I have heard since I don't know when. I'm going to try again - what if I told you that kamae are a principle thing more than a technique thing?


As for Ninravus and the Bokuden thing, well any one knows that feudal Japan was more violent than todays western world, so what point is he trying to make.Well, for the historical proponents of the Takagi Yoshin ryu for example, killing someone or drawing blood at the wrong place could lead to far less merciful repercussions than a jail sentence...


Is the UK or USADon't want to burst anone's bubble here, but there are more places on this planet where the Bujinkan teachings help people out actively...

[Don Roley]

I am glad that so many people here on the web understand that the classical techniques, kamae etc can be used in a more conventional way today in the 21st century. And to be honest this is probably because you guys have some years of experience with this art. But from a beginners point of view, and remember we are talking about beginners, some one new into the art never having tasted ninjutsu and is completely unaware of who Dr Hatsumi is, it is good to teach them something that they can immediately relate to, as opposed to the traditional kamae seen in other dojos.

You really have no knowledge at all about what goes on in Bujinkan training, do you? Your broad, sweeping, false generalizations are going to irritate many Bujinkan people and cause them to attack you. We do not like flame wars here. Please stop playing with matches and get some knowledge of the subject matter (i.e. Bujinkan) before you talk about it as if you were knowledgeable.

[Shizen Shigoku]

[donning asbestos underwear] I'm guessing those "false generalizations" and misconceptions may have come from TSD-taught propaganda against the Bujinkan in order to justify why things are done differently . . . but then I am one to believe in all sorts of ridiculous conspiracy theories.

[Cryozombie]

Ladies and Gentelmen, this thread has the potential to become heated, lets all remember to remain calm, and keep things informative and impersonal.

As I have been a participant in this thread, I'm saying this as a member, not a moderator, so lets all take this to heart so I dont have to get an outside mod involved.

Thanks!

[saru1968]

problems? always there are two..your side and my side!



There will always be problems when a person from A-Group passes comment on person for B-Group.



Basically its only appropriate to do so if person making the comments has EQUAL experience from BOTH groups.

Otherwise it will always be 'mines better than yours!'

In no way meaning to inflame this situation and being extremley tired after my baby daughters been up on the hour ever hour through the night for the last week.

Hatsumi Sensei teaches Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, he taught( and still does) Stephen Hayes this art, Steven Hayes 'modernised' it for todays society.

He was(is) taught by Hatsumi Sensei, and although his new system is called 'x' the 'copyright' to this knowledge is Hatsumi's, Regardless of a 'we adopt a more 21st century' approach,if you had equal knowledge in BOTH arts your would understand that this 'new' art was formed through Hatsumi's 'copyright'.

Hope that makes sense, my head hurts, I'm off to bed, only another hour b4 she wakes up, again!

Gary

[Cryozombie]

Steven Hayes 'modernised' it for todays society.
THIS is the difference between the two arts that I dont understand.

WHAT is modernized?

Did he replace Eggshell Metsubishi training with Mace? Shuriken with, CDs? What?

Ive heard it said that the "Modernization" is in how the attacker throws punches and you respond... but again, that escapes me... because the techniques in the Bujinkan (the "source" as it were of Toshindo) are not techniques... its not "Attacker Does Straight Punch you counter with ABCKata" you learn them, sure, but to teach you... how not to use a technique but to respond... I cant explain it, but some of the others here surely could, like Don, Kizaru, Nimravus or Dale and some others...

So "how" an attacker attacks you is really of little consequence, IMO, unless you are striving to learn "ABCKATA" to use it in a fight, and if so, and that is your goal, isnt an art like TaeKwando better suited for that?

Or is THAT the modernization? Removal of the "lack of technique" for a set of specific responses that you use: Attacker Throws Technique A you always counter with Technique Q.

I really cannot wrap my head around the "modernization" concept... perhaps a ToShinDo guy could explain it to me better...

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Reminds me of a funny episode that took place around the first few months of last year...after our usual warmup procedure our instructor said "all right, everyone practice omote gyaku" without giving any kind of instructions. So we did what he requested - or so we thought. After a while, he commented "hey, I said omote gyaku, let's see some variation people!" To which I responded "but you told us to do omote gyaku, so we're doing omote gyaku...?"

And he said "that's right, but I never said omote kote gyaku".

:wavey:

[Don Roley]

THIS is the difference between the two arts that I dont understand.

WHAT is modernized?

Well, for a start he has added in some aspects of armored assailent training he learned from Peytonn Quinn. I have trained with Quinn and respect what he does very much. His web site with a description can be found at www.rmcat.com.

The suits that he and Hayes use (actually- Hayes uses a modified version that is not as effective due IIRC to some copyright problems) could not be made prior to plastic and foam rubber. It lets the training be run in a scenario type situation with the emphisis on adding stress to the training. It seems that training while under stress is the most sure way of being able to access those skills under real, stressfull, combat.

Traditionally, this type of stress training was filled by kata practice. Kata were not only the means to learn techniques, but also were fairly dangerous and stressfull ways of ingraining skills. However, they require that the teacher working out with the student have the type of knowledge of their abilites and what they can take that only comes from long, close association. For Hayes and most teachers, this is not possible. For Hayes to try to teach the way he was originally taught in Japan during the rough days of the Bujinkan he would have to give up all his studios and limit himself to a handfull of long term students.

So since he cannot give that type of training at the many seminars he gives, I think that his choice of using the armored suits is a good one well suited for the modern training situation. As you pointed out, the dynamics of things really do not change. But you have to take into consideration how the training situation CAN'T be replicated unless you are willing to make Americans train just like the Japanese did- and probably get a damn good legal team as well. I sometimes do have training sessions that fill the stress requirement here in Japan and I think it is more effective than using the armor. But I can't think of a way I could pull of doing it with the typical American martial artist if and when I move back to the states.

[Kizaru]

THIS is the difference between the two arts that I dont understand.

WHAT is modernized? In addition to what Don Roley has written, I'd say the method of marketing has been modernized as well.


For Hayes to try to teach the way he was originally taught in Japan during the rough days of the Bujinkan he would have to give up all his studios and limit himself to a handfull of long term students. ..make Americans train just like the Japanese did- and probably get a damn good legal team as well. I couldn't agree more.


I sometimes do have training sessions that fill the stress requirement here in Japan ...Yeah? Like, with who?


...and I think it is more effective than using the armor...Armor or pads give a feeling of safety on both sides that's not present in "reality" as well as reduce range of motion.


...But I can't think of a way I could pull of doing it with the typical American martial artist if and when I move back to the states.Hockey pads, 45 dgree angles and plenty of band aids maybe? :rofl:

[KyleShort]

Two thoughts:

1 : You get out of the martial arts what you put into it. Though it is true that many martial arts use kata to teach principles, not techniques, it is up to the individual to understand that. It is all too easy for someone to simply collect techniques and fight by rote, rather than breach an understanding of why they are doing what they do. To that effect, there are those that would use the Kihon Happo as a series of techniques, and never really understand the underlying principles.

This next part directly relates to Techno's comments. For these type of people, I think that the type of attacks are VERY relevant. If a technique collector only ever practices against a long, straight punch, that is all they will ever be able to defend against. They don't seek the principle and they don't get it. In light of that, I will go out on a limb and suggest that moderrn American fast food mentatality creates an overwhelming majority of technique collectors. Perhaps it makes sense to "modernize" a system by introducing "realistic" and "modern" attacks. You and I know that if you master a principle, you don't have to train for every attack under the sun because you can dynamically apply. But if you have no clue about the principle, then maybe you need to train against every attack?

2 : This is related to Don's comments about stress and kata training. I agree, however we also have to consider that unlike the majority of modern martial artists, traditional japanese martial artists were warriors that had to repeatedly use their skills on the battlefield. If they had little experience with adrenaline and stress management, they would soon become indoctrinated in it with their first military engagement. So in the koryu I think it would be reasonable to assume that these warriors had a level of stress training that many modern practitioners never experience.

I know that most will not agree with me on this next part, but I also use this as a basis for why I feel that resistant partner training and sparring is important. The people who founded and taught the martial schools of old did so with direct battlefield experience. They did not need rubber suits of armor or sparring pads to gain actual hands on combat experience. Their lives were frought with danger already. But today that is not the truth with most of us, and we kid oursleves if we believe that we are trained in the same way as warriors of old, because we are missing that key element of application. However there have been modern developments (ie. Kano etc.) that take us a step closer.

[ginshun]

I am not a member of either organization, so take my opinion as you will, but it seems that the difference between the two is more in the way they are taught as opposed to what is actually taught.

I am sure they don't teach exactly the same things, but I bet they are pretty close. To-Shin Do seems a little like a commercialized, more structured version of the Bujinkan.

I am sure there is more that is different, but as first glance, that is kind of what stands out.

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Kyle, if I didn't know better I'd probably think you're saying that the Bujinkan is geared towards more intelligent individuals than Toshindo is...?:confused:


But today that is not the truth with most of us, and we kid oursleves if we believe that we are trained in the same way as warriors of old, because we are missing that key element of application.We are also kidding ourselves if we don't think their knowledge is attainable nowadays.

Not to put too fine of a point on it, but if you don't have the dedication to do what is necessary to become proficient in the Takamatsuden systems, stay the **** away from them.:rpo:

[Satt]

Wow, this topic just never gets old does it??? :whip: :idunno:

[saru1968]

Meaning of Life

Politics

Religeon (sp?)

Egg vs Chicken

endless really..........

:-)

[Shogun]

I think the main reason SKH "modernized" Taijutsu, is this (and this comes from the videos I have):

Sure, you can find every type of training in the bujinkan. I can mention something, and you can say, "well so and so does that out of Grand rapids, michigan" or "so and so does that in cedar falls, Iowa" but Mr. Hayes wanted ALL of the To shindo guys to do the same thing, his way.


KE

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Now why would anyone want that, when even Hatsumi doesn't?

[Linger]

I think the main reason SKH "modernized" Taijutsu, is this (and this comes from the videos I have):

Sure, you can find every type of training in the bujinkan. I can mention something, and you can say, "well so and so does that out of Grand rapids, michigan" or "so and so does that in cedar falls, Iowa" but Mr. Hayes wanted ALL of the To shindo guys to do the same thing, his way.


KEThat takes away the best thing for me in learning in the Bujinkan is that it is so personal.

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Getting over yourself is one thing, getting over Hatsumi's wishes is quite another...

[Shogun]

Hey, I didnt do it. dont blame me. its a different flavor. thats all. some people like spicy food, some like bland, some like watered down, some like a little of it all, etc.

[ginshun]

Not to put too fine of a point on it, but if you don't have the dedication to do what is necessary to become proficient in the Takamatsuden systems, stay the **** away from them
Could you please outline how many hours per day and how many years I have to train for my dedication to meet up with your standards? Since it seems to be up to you and all.

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

It's not my standards.

[ginshun]

Then who's, and what exactly are they? I am not trying to cause problems here, I just want to know what is considered to be adaquate dedication to be allowed to improve myself.

I guess being that I am not in the X-Kans, I was unaware that there were minimum training requirements.

[saru1968]

Well In my case, I've set aside the rest of my life, so there's no hurry and I can enjoy the journey.

But thats just me and I am MAD.

Gary

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

My point is this...why would you cut down on and/or remove several training components that used to be considered extremely crucial and fundamental, such as ukemi, hoken juroppo, kamae no kata and all-around physical conditioning (no, I'm not suggesting we all learn to smash pebbles and do front somersaults on our index fingers, but you get my point), other than to make the training available to a larger amount of people who otherwise wouldn't have the endurance, patience and constitution to keep going? And why would you want to enroll such individuals in the first place?

I don't think anyone benefits from having pupils around that aren't seriously interested in becoming as proficient as they possibly can. That is a waste of the instructor's and everyone else's time and abilities. Those who say that they only train for the fun of it - do they really train hard enough? Those who train purely for self defense - do they really grasp what the concept of self defense encompasses? Those who train merely out of a historical interest - are they respecting the wishes of Hatsumi sensei, that this is to be a form of budo one can use to survive with, and not merely a "museum in motion"? And those who say they don't train to be able to handle real confrontations - do they really have faith in the effectiveness of the Takamatsuden arts?

[ginshun]

I guess see your point.

I just don't think that it is anybody's place to somebody else the reasons why they should or shouldn't train.

Its obvious that you personally view To-Shin Do as vastly inferior to Bujinkan training. I would guess that is a matter of opinion though isn't it? I wonder if Steve Hayes would agree?

I am not trying to defend or admonish either one, just interested in what people think.

and To-Shin Do doesn't teach ukemi or the others you mentioned? I didn't know that. If that is true, then I would see it as a major drawback. I thought they taught all of them, they just had different names and systems for teaching them. Kamae anyway.

[Gina]

TO-SHIN DO doesn't have Ukemi?

Strange there on the DVDs and TO-SHIN DO curriculum my instructor has.

[Gina]

But, following on from my last post.

I Guess thats what happens when people talk about TO-SHIN Do without actually experiencing it. Lots of misunderstanding, by people who think they know everything.

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Its obvious that you personally view To-Shin Do as vastly inferior to Bujinkan training.
Not if what I've been told turns out be totally inaccurate.

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

TO-SHIN DO doesn't have Ukemi?

Strange there on the DVDs and TO-SHIN DO curriculum my instructor has.
Read my post again.

[ginshun]

But, following on from my last post.

I Guess thats what happens when people talk about TO-SHIN Do without actually experiencing it. Lots of misunderstanding, by people who think they know everything.

I get the impression that happens a lot.

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

Gina, you still haven't answered my question. Who told you that the Bujinkan values historical preservation over contemporary effectiveness?

[ginshun]

please don't get the impression that I was singling anyone out.

I think misinformation about what other arts are and speaking ill about them without any first hand experience of what they actually encompass happens a lot across all martial arts, not just back and forth between To-Shin Do and the Bujinkan.

[Flatlander]

It seems to me that in order to effectively discern the differences between the To Shin Do training and Bujinkan training, it would be helpful for people who have trained in these respective arts to share their experiences, to outline what their trianing is comprised of, etc. In that way, those who have trained in the other may be able to point out the differences that they have experienced.

Unfortunately, nobody is as willing to share as they are to assume. Damn shame, if you ask me. As one who has trained in NEITHER, the conclusions that I'm able to draw from this thread regarding either art aren't terribly flattering.

[Michael Stinson]

The futility of these types of posts is that first and foremost very few people are equipped at all to answer them. Without fail many come in with things they have heard...or with very very limited experience (I trained with a guy that did 'X' once at a seminar). Even worse...I read on 'Blah' forum that so and so does not do 'x'.

Those of us that actually do have a bit of experience on both sides of the fence can only share our personal experiences which paint a partial and incomplete picture. It is very easy to mistake our personal maps for the territories and argue those maps, but it really doesn't do anyone any good. It is very sad when folks argue not only their maps, but maps that have been given to them by someone else, that may have recieved those maps from yet another person who half heard the details and wasn't a very good mapper to begin with....

With the various experiences I have had I could look at many of the things said in this thread and say it was true based on 'X', but false based on 'Y'. The fact is that in both houses there is a lot of variety, experiences, outlooks, etc. Even in To-Shin Do where there is generally more of a defined structure...there are many differences from dojo to dojo. This can definitely be said about the Bujinkan to a much larger degree....

So...to accurately answer this question involves a lot of:

If you train with 'X' dojo you will see this, this and that...however you will not see this at 'Z' dojo...now in the other organization you will see....etc. So...before answering this question authoritatively...you really need to have trained with a large percentage of dojos/instructors for an extended period under both organizational titles. At the very least make sure you have trained with a number of the 'seniors' to ensure you at least see what is coming down from the top.

Of course you could always just enjoy your training and ignore the things which really don't affect you in any way. More and more I find enough to work on and question in my own life and training without looking into my neighbors yard.

[Flatlander]

Sorry, gotta disagree. The futility is that nobody shares, they only comment on what others have said. It becomes a discussion without substance, because people would rather slam the intent than contribute.

[Michael Stinson]

Sorry, gotta disagree. The futility is that nobody shares, they only comment on what others have said. It becomes a discussion without substance, because people would rather slam the intent than contribute.The point is that very few people can share because they don't have the real information (substance?) to share. Even those of us that might be able to share...we can only give our personal experiences which will likely only paint a picture that someone else will come along and argue that it is completely wrong.

Often times when one does innocently share, that sharing will either be taken in the wrong way, or interpretted in a manner which creates ill will, anger, etc. Most comparisons end up making one or the other topics of comparison appear to be lacking or be otherwise inferior. People generally either accidentally or deliberately slant their statements in these types of discussions in a manner that justifies their direction...and more often than not puts down the other direction in some fashion.

[DWeidman]

Sorry, gotta disagree. The futility is that nobody shares, they only comment on what others have said. It becomes a discussion without substance, because people would rather slam the intent than contribute.
Ah - Flatlander:

As the spokesman for ALL of the BUJINKAN - the following workout is what EVERY BUJINKAN dojo in the world does:

Warm-up
Rolling
Eat a cheese sandwhich.
Punch in the air for at least 4 hours straight.
Stand in the corner and scream at the top of our lungs to work on the foundation for KIAI.
More rolling.
Lemonade break
Warm Down.

There. That should answer any questions you have about the Bujinkan.

...or not

You see - there is sooooo much freedom in the Bujinkan that Bujinkan dojos literally blocks apart you will see MASSIVE differences. This is both to our advantage and our detriment.

Sorry - this isn't an equation system: PUNCH X + BLOCK Y = TECHNIQUE #12. It it was - then sharing our sylabus would be enough to make a good comparison. Anyone want to share the Bujinkan sylabus? Anyone?

Sorry it isn't so simple. And to be honest - if you don't think of our art as "flattering" (or its representation on an INTERNET WEB BOARD) - I, for one, am not going to lose any sleep.

Michael is right - it is useless unless Hatsumi and Hayes come on here to MT and hash it out (I am not holding my breath...)

-Daniel

[Flatlander]

Geez you guys, it's like pulling teeth.

Fortunately, I was able to pull one useful nugget out of that pile of sarcastic non-helpfulness:



You see - there is sooooo much freedom in the Bujinkan that Bujinkan dojos literally blocks apart you will see MASSIVE differences. This is both to our advantage and our detriment.

Why is this? How is it to your art's advantage? How is it to your art's detriment?

Further, how does this relate to To Shin Do? Is there a To Shin Do practitioner that can answer this question: is there a cohesive and uniform curriculum? This would comprise a difference.

Sorry it isn't so simple. And to be honest - if you don't think of our art as "flattering" (or its representation on an INTERNET WEB BOARD) - I, for one, am not going to lose any sleep.
Listen up, I'm trying to facilitate discussion here. What exactly do you suppose this board is for? I haven't seen a friendly bit of sharing or helpful discussion in this sub-forum since it opened. Why is that?

Ask yourself, are you contributing positively? If not, then why bother?

[Cryozombie]

Kids, Play nice.

My Opinion? The Buj does not put emphasis on a set curriculum because the techniques dont matter. The Kihon Happo and the Sanshin teach you how to move, and how the body works... other techniques are tools for the toolbox, so to speak, but the idea of Buj training is to be, uh, responsive, not locked into a technique. There is no "If attacker throws Straight punch followed by a jab and then a hook, execute <insert technique here>" so it does not benefit the art to have a curriculum that says "To earn a Black Belt Learn Kata A=F, recite the names of the Techniques A=Q and Break this Brick" like in my old Hapkido school. Some of the only things you will be likely to see universally in a Bujinkan School is the Kihon Happo and Sanshin...

When I went to the Toshindo school out here prior to starting my 'kan training, they gave me a curriculum that outlined what I would need to know for the various ranks, with a small description of the techniques. I cant say that that is universal in Toshindo, but it was how it was done at the school I checked out.

[rutherford]

Further, how does this relate to To Shin Do? Is there a To Shin Do practitioner that can answer this question: is there a cohesive and uniform curriculum? This would comprise a difference.

Actually, it wouldn't. There's a set curriculum for belt rankings through my instructor. We have essays to write, books to read, and minimum times in each rank. Everything you'd might expect, right down to the printed syllabus.

That said, there are lots of folks who pay no attention to the curriculum. The most senior member of my training group hasn't tested for rank in 8 years. To be honest, I don't even know if he's a Bujinkan member, and I don't care. The fact is that his Taijutsu is GOOD and he can explain to you the whys, the hows, and the roots/principles of each movement. He inspires us, shows respect for our art, and our instructor. He has the respect of our instructor, what more should I ask for?

I've come to understand that in many ways, the Bujinkan does not fit within Western concepts.



Listen up, I'm trying to facilitate discussion here. What exactly do you suppose this board is for? I haven't seen a friendly bit of sharing or helpful discussion in this sub-forum since it opened. Why is that?

Ask yourself, are you contributing positively? If not, then why bother?

Flatlander, you have good intentions. I believe they may be mistaken, and that some of the same questions may apply.

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I've come to understand that in many ways, the Bujinkan does not fit within Western concepts.
Ba-da-bip, ba-da-bing-bang-boom.:ultracool

[Shizen Shigoku]

DWeidman: "... - the following workout is what EVERY BUJINKAN dojo in the world does:

Warm-up
Rolling
Eat a cheese sandwhich.
Punch in the air for at least 4 hours straight.
Stand in the corner and scream at the top of our lungs to work on the foundation for KIAI.
More rolling.
Lemonade break
Warm Down."

That's funny, 'cause at my dojo, we eat peanut butter sandwiches, and the lemonade break comes before the "more rolling" phase.

But seriously, there's one difference we can agree exists: Kasumi-An Toshindo uses more set curriculae than Bujinkan Budotaijutsu does.

rutherford: "I've come to understand that in many ways, the Bujinkan does not fit within Western concepts."

So, I guess another difference we can agree on is that the Bujinkan is Japanese (or Japanese-flavored international), while Toshindo is American (or American-flavored western hemisphere).

[Michael Stinson]

In To-Shin Do there is a standard curriculm out there. There are also sheets that are given out which contain a skeletal outline. Having said that....

Much like the Bujinkan there is a great deal of variety from school to school. I know that both Tampa and California have their own 'curriculum sheets' that are different from what we use here in Phoenix (and actually as I type this I remembered that I have modified the ones we use to add a few things here and there that is different from others). I also know that they both have their own flavor of the curriculum that varies quite a bit from what I do, as well as from each other. Yes there are many similarities...some exact...but also some major differences. This is very true with some of the other Quest Centers as well. In Phoenix we follow pretty closely with what is done in Dayton...but we have our own flavor as well. The curriculum is a starting point, but there is plenty of room for additions, modifications, etc.

Even in discussing the physical sheets given out...they just serve as a framework or starting point...much is taught that is not on the sheet.

As always...the answer is maybe and depends....;)

[windwarrior]

Ok im curiouse what the reasons for everyons discontentment with each other on this subject is i personally take toshindo at a quest center i am going to actually meet mister hayes in a couple of weeks and am verry excited about that however if i had the oportunity to hop on a plane go to japan and train with hatsumi sense i rocket forward into that headlong without a moments hesitation as far as i know mr hayes and hatsumi are still friends and what not so whats the big deal there just two differant ways of looking at the same thing a differant angle ive noticed that the mind science portions of both arts are tought slightly differantly but whenever ive seen mister hayes teach a class or perform arts in a dvd he always gives huge credit to hatsumi or honors him in some way mentioning that this is were i got my start in this way of thinking and then i expanded my own toughts on top of that im not sure y we all cant just get along out there i mean its a rare art to begin with and its gonna get more so if we dont start banding together and promoting our art from a positive standpoint my favorite code of mindfull action is i avoid anything that will hamper my physical and mental well being well it makes me nuts to not see people geting along i wish you all the best with your training eather bujinkan or toshindo may you truly find what you looking for out of it agin long story short
peace love no flaming promote harmony whatever you want to call it im sure im gonna get hammered for this post lol but i dont care im gonna be off in a field somwere with a kusari practicing on grass and being happy knowing im practicing the art thats rite for me it may not be rite for anyone else but its a perfect fit on myself

[Don Roley]

ive noticed that the mind science portions of both arts are tought slightly differantly

First of all, please write in a manner that will not cause your old, dead English teachers to spin in their graves.

As for mind science stuff, exactly what are you talking about as done by Hatsumi? Some of the stuff that has been attributed to Hatsumi actually comes from Hayes and his research into things from outside the Bujinkan.

[Cryozombie]

That is the single longest run on sentance I have ever seen, and it hurt my head to read it.

[MrFunnieman]

I don't think anyone benefits from having pupils around that aren't seriously interested in becoming as proficient as they possibly can.

I think the fact that a person initiates training, regardless of their intensity, benefit intrinsically from the training.


That is a waste of the instructor's and everyone else's time and abilities. Those who say that they only train for the fun of it - do they really train hard enough?

Hard enough for what? If they get their a$$ off the couch and are not in front of the TV is their time really wasted? I would argue that a sedintary life style is a waste of time and abilities. That person may not be looking to be an uber ninja or Navy SEAL, but they may learn a couple of skills that will help them out of a confrontation and at the very minimum raise their pulse rate for the duration of the class.


Those who train purely for self defense - do they really grasp what the concept of self defense encompasses?

Great question. Can you extrapolate on what the real concept of self defense encompasses?


My point is this...why would you cut down on and/or remove several training components... other than to make the training available to a larger amount of people who otherwise wouldn't have the endurance, patience and constitution to keep going? And why would you want to enroll such individuals in the first place?


I think it is unfortunate that you would elect to keep the treasure of BBT to only a select few individuals who prove themselves worthy. I think there is an inherent benefit to having a larger community exposed to the concepts and philosophies of BBT. Everyone on this forum rants about how much they love the training and how effective it is, at how amazing BBT's concepts are as applicable today as they were a millenium ago. SWEET!

Now imagine if Hatsumi never decided to open up his school to foreingers. You and I wouldn't have the privilage of having this discussion...

Okay, maybe Hayes has "watered down" To-shin Do, standardized the curriculum, and departed from Hasumi's vision. However, now the "soccer mom" who started training at the Quest Center (because her kids train there) now has the ability use proper ukemi if she slips on ice, preventing a possible wrist or tailbone fracture. She won't win a street fight or survive on the streets of Baghdad, so your right... big waste of time... because she doesn't know osoto gyaku from osoto kote gyaku :rolleyes:

Cynics will argue that a bigger audience leads to bigger profits, sure. I won't deny that, but it increases exposure to something that we all would agree is a very positive experience. We all care about martial arts, particularly the one we study, or we would not be here on MT debating or sharing our thoughts. If training helps one person an any aspect I believe the community as a whole is that much better off. Children learn to be respectful, or to think creatively and out of the box. People are encouraged to be aware of their surroundings, they gain more flexibility and are less injury prone, their self-esteem may improve, need I go on?


My Opinion? The Buj does not put emphasis on a set curriculum because the techniques dont matter. The Kihon Happo and the Sanshin teach you how to move, and how the body works... other techniques are tools for the toolbox, so to speak, but the idea of Buj training is to be, uh, responsive, not locked into a technique.[/qoute]

Perhaps it would be easier to consider the curriculum given to the kyu ranks as the To-Shin Do kihon happo. Like most languages this doesn't translate literally, but curriculum helps students react in a natural or efficient way in response to attacks from an aggressor and is based on their skill/ experience level. If you went to a school teaching the To-Shin Do curriculum and were only there one day or a couple of months I am sure you were looking at something pertaining to white and yellow belts. There is no prescribed way to respond to a "straight punch followed by a jab and then a hook". A student would be expected to do what felt natural to them at the time. White belts would be expected to handly that attack one way and blue, green or black belts would all handle the attack differently--based on their skill/ experience level. I am sure the same is true for the Buj. (I am making an assumption here).

[quote=Technopunk]There is no "If attacker throws Straight punch followed by a jab and then a hook, execute <insert technique here>" so it does not benefit the art to have a curriculum that says "To earn a Black Belt Learn Kata A=F, recite the names of the Techniques A=Q and Break this Brick" like in my old Hapkido school. Some of the only things you will be likely to see universally in a Bujinkan School is the Kihon Happo and Sanshin...

I think it's funny that you are implying practioners of To-Shin Do may be technique collectors and when I trained at a Quest Center we accused Buj. people of the same!:cheers:

Well, I will cut this long post short...

[Don Roley]

I think it is unfortunate that you would elect to keep the treasure of BBT to only a select few individuals who prove themselves worthy. I think there is an inherent benefit to having a larger community exposed to the concepts and philosophies of BBT. Everyone on this forum rants about how much they love the training and how effective it is, at how amazing BBT's concepts are as applicable today as they were a millenium ago. SWEET!

Now imagine if Hatsumi never decided to open up his school to foreingers. You and I wouldn't have the privilage of having this discussion...

Okay, maybe Hayes has "watered down" To-shin Do, standardized the curriculum, and departed from Hasumi's vision. However, now the "soccer mom" who started training at the Quest Center (because her kids train there) now has the ability use proper ukemi if she slips on ice, preventing a possible wrist or tailbone fracture. She won't win a street fight or survive on the streets of Baghdad, so your right... big waste of time... because she doesn't know osoto gyaku from osoto kote gyaku :rolleyes:

I think the problem I have with the above idea is that a lot of times when you try to slim down the cirriculum, you end up throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

There are things in the system that might not make sense to us. But later on turn out to be very important. These insights come only after a long time and understanding of the subject matter. After several years in Japan I have found that certain things that I did not understand the importance of have become clearer.

The question is if Hayes was qualified enough to make those deletions without doing damage. From what I hear, he has taken out some things I would consider important.

[MrFunnieman]

The question is if Hayes was qualified enough to make those deletions without doing damage. From what I hear, he has taken out some things I would consider important.

Don, at times my depth of knowledge is more shallow than I would like to admit. What qualifies a person to adjust his training to his circumstances and what are those things he has removed that you consider important?

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I think the fact that a person initiates training, regardless of their intensity, benefit intrinsically from the training.

Not if they're only doing it because there's nothing good on tv at that particular time.


Hard enough for what? If they get their a$$ off the couch and are not in front of the TV is their time really wasted?

The instructor's time may very well be, yes.


Great question. Can you extrapolate on what the real concept of self defense encompasses?

I suggest you start a new thread about that issue.


I think it is unfortunate that you would elect to keep the treasure of BBT to only a select few individuals who prove themselves worthy.

If the alternative means watering most of it down so no one learns anything of any true depth at the end of the day, well...


I think there is an inherent benefit to having a larger community exposed to the concepts and philosophies of BBT.

There we're going to have to continue to disagree.


Now imagine if Hatsumi never decided to open up his school to foreingers. You and I wouldn't have the privilage of having this discussion...

And Oguri's old dojo would still be intact...:uhyeah: But seriously, the "pioneers" went to great pains to be able to participate in training. I don't think you can compare that with the way most people find their way into all this.


Okay, maybe Hayes has "watered down" To-shin Do, standardized the curriculum, and departed from Hasumi's vision. However, now the "soccer mom" who started training at the Quest Center (because her kids train there) now has the ability use proper ukemi if she slips on ice, preventing a possible wrist or tailbone fracture.

So this is a benefit she wouldn't have had if she were in the Bujinkan instead?


She won't win a street fight or survive on the streets of Baghdad, so your right... big waste of time... because she doesn't know osoto gyaku from osoto kote gyaku :rolleyes:

You're taking things out of context.


Children learn to be respectful, or to think creatively and out of the box.

I truly wonder if you can say that about the kids enrolled in the children's classes at Straight Blast Gym ten years from now...but that's a different discussion.


A student would be expected to do what felt natural to them at the time. White belts would be expected to handly that attack one way and blue, green or black belts would all handle the attack differently--based on their skill/ experience level. I am sure the same is true for the Buj. (I am making an assumption here).

I do agree that whether or not the self-defense aspect is particularly prevalent or not depends largely of what that particular school decides to emphasize, not necessarily on the overall functionality of the Takamatsuden arts.

[Don Roley]

Don, at times my depth of knowledge is more shallow than I would like to admit. What qualifies a person to adjust his training to his circumstances and what are those things he has removed that you consider important?

Lots of things. For one, the way kata are used. I found long ago that they were great ways of teaching skills. But the gain came from the process of going through them. This is at least as important as the skills they demonstrate. There is nothing like going through a kata with a senior practicioner serving as your partner.

But now Hayes teaches the kata through his home video course. I don't think you can teach or learn kata even in a seminar type setting. You may learn some of the movements, but the polishing has to be done in a small group with hands on interaction to be of benifit IMO.

But a video home study course? No way based on my experiences. Going through the bo kata of the Kukishin ryu on your own and going through it with a guy who is very skilled at them and teaching them are two entirely different worlds.

[windwarrior]

I dont know about my english skills but i do know that my friend akemi from japan says that ninjitsu is not a common martial art there as say karate and as such is starting to fade from common practice we should all band together to prevent this from happening and stop fighting about what one is better then the other there just differant takes on the same idea and differant teaching methods thats all im trying to say

[lalom]

Wow. Lots to read on these forums. All I can say, for me, is that after having had exposure to both bujinkan and To-Shin Do there are definitely some major differences. Differences in teaching style, structure are definitely different. Of course I haven't been to every dojo in the country on both sides. I even hate to use the term "both sides." I prefer to consider both on the same side.

That being said, although there are differences in the two styles, there are so many similarities that often make the differences very cloudy. Looks and feels different in many ways, but they are one in the same for me because they are so similar.

[Cryozombie]

I think it's funny that you are implying practioners of To-Shin Do may be technique collectors and when I trained at a Quest Center we accused Buj. people of the same!:cheers:



No, No, not what I am sayig at all. Im saying one seems to have a set curriculum with specific techniques for each belt level... and the other does not.

[Don Roley]

I dont know about my english skills but i do know that my friend akemi from japan says that ninjitsu is not a common martial art there as say karate and as such is starting to fade from common practice we should all band together to prevent this from happening and stop fighting about what one is better then the other there just differant takes on the same idea and differant teaching methods thats all im trying to say

Would you please, please, please stop writing like that. I teach English for a living and would beat any of my students who wrote the above with a big stick.

And could you answer the question about the mind science stuff?

[Jonathan Randall]

I dont know about my english skills but i do know that my friend akemi from japan says that ninjitsu is not a common martial art there as say karate and as such is starting to fade from common practice we should all band together to prevent this from happening and stop fighting about what one is better then the other there just differant takes on the same idea and differant teaching methods thats all im trying to say

Paragraphs and punctuation are your friends.
:-partyon:

[Don Roley]

Lots of things. For one, the way kata are used. I found long ago that they were great ways of teaching skills. But the gain came from the process of going through them. This is at least as important as the skills they demonstrate. There is nothing like going through a kata with a senior practicioner serving as your partner.

But now Hayes teaches the kata through his home video course. I don't think you can teach or learn kata even in a seminar type setting. You may learn some of the movements, but the polishing has to be done in a small group with hands on interaction to be of benifit IMO.

But a video home study course? No way based on my experiences. Going through the bo kata of the Kukishin ryu on your own and going through it with a guy who is very skilled at them and teaching them are two entirely different worlds.

Someone took offense at the above and dinged me with a negative rep and left the following comment.


You don't know that! C'mon!

I think that I should point out exactly how I do know what I write about.

It may surprise a lot of you that many of us in Japan do have a large collection of Hatsumi's tapes. When we started Gyokko ryu, we started watching and trying out the stuff on the Gyokko ryu Quest tape, this year we did the same with Shinden Fudo ryu, etc.

But then we go out and actually practice with the Japanese on the matter.

So when I say that there is a lot being left out when you try to do the kata on your own and not from a real sensei as your training partner, I speak from experience. I have gone to seminars in both America and Daikomyosais in Japan as well as showing up week after week to a Japanese shihan and even occasionally having them as uke. I also have people give me tapes from American teachers like Hayes and we watch them. So I know the differences and speak from experience.

In fact, at an e-budo drink up a few years ago, someone from outside the Buijinkan pointed out that as far as he was concerned I was a far more skilled, knowledgeable and experienced practicioner than Hayes. I kind of did not know what to say that night. But I have come to overcome my shock and put aside my reverance for people who started before me.

Hayes longest stay in Japan was covered by a one year visa. Other than that, his trips have fallen in the 90 day period covered by a tourist visa. I have been here for years going to class week after week. The first year in Japan is a bit of a shock with a lot to digest. I know I look back on my first year with a bit of whimsy. I did not learn as much as I did later on. And (according to folks that have heard both of us) my Japanese was much better than Hayes is even now.

So I guess that when we talk about things like this, I have tried to learn both as Hayes did and as he tries to teach. And I have gone through the multi- year process of simply going to class with the Japanese that Hayes and many others have not. And from that experience behind me, I state that there is a lot of things that Hayes seems to have never learned or is leaving out that should be left in.

And I am not the only one. There is a guy who has lived here for 20 years who is going to be teaching a seminar overseas for the first time in a few months. 20 years without teaching, just learning. He has not had to worry about his image and is free to accept corrections. He has not has to worry about anything like building up a system or anything other than getting good. And after 20 years of that he is just about ready to start teaching others.

Sorry if I sound a little down on Hayes. But I honestly can't think that he really knows enough to make the changes he did and not throw the baby out with the bath water when I hear about people like the 20 year student.

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Not that I like to teach very much or think Hayes is the best practitioner ever, but let's not forget that there are things you can only learn by teaching yourself.

[windwarrior]

Would you please, please, please stop writing like that. I teach English for a living and would beat any of my students who wrote the above with a big stick.

And could you answer the question about the mind science stuff?

Ok first off feel sorry for your students my english is what it is and thats not what were debating here second to answer your question i was under the impression that SKH had integrated into his toshindo program buddist meditation principles as self impowerment mindsets like confidence building and community building stuff i dont know if thats the same as the bujinkan way but thats what i whas told by my instructor as being a differance as well as a more modern application of the kamae changing some of the footwork and hand positioning and taking out ones that werent as practical in todays society im just going on what i have been told and no one in my school has ever said anything negative about a bujinkan school while ive been in earshot and we all hold massaki hatsumi in the highest respect

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Ok first off feel sorry for your students my english is what it is and thats not what were debating here

Take a look at the keyboard in front of you. Then, look specifically at the button two steps right of the letter "M". When you press it, this . happens. I suggest you learn to take advantage of this function to begin with.


application of the kamae changing some of the footwork and hand positioning and taking out ones that werent as practical in todays society

There is always the risk in traditional martial arts that things one does not understand are deemed impractical.

[Don Roley]

i was under the impression that SKH had integrated into his toshindo program buddist meditation principles as self impowerment mindsets like confidence building and community building stuff i dont know if thats the same as the bujinkan way but thats what i whas told by my instructor as being a differance as well as a more modern application of the kamae changing some of the footwork and hand positioning and taking out ones that werent as practical in todays society

Ugh! I teach kids who have only been learning English for a few months that can understand how to use periods and such. Why are you blaming others for complaining about not being able to easily read what you write?

As for the idea that the buddist meditation principles are the same in the Bujinkan and Toshindo- no. Your instructor is not telling you the truth. He probably has never even been to Japan and is just passing along what he was told in Toshindo. But the exercises you do for the mind in Toshindo are not the same as in the Bujinkan. In fact, I would challenge you to show me a mind developing exercise in the Bujinkan outside of normal taijutsu pracice.

As for the idea of taking out things that are not practical in today's society, not only am I going to repeat what I said about the baby and the bath water, I am going to point out that people still have the same limbs, the same bodies as they did hundreds of years ago. People that create new arts always seem to say that older stuff is not relevant to the modern age- and yet they do not seem to be able to really give concrete examples.

Lets face it- I have seen Hayes do sword. If you are talking about dropping things that are not relevant to the modern age, how do you explain that?

[MrFunnieman]

So when I say that there is a lot being left out when you try to do the kata on your own and not from a real sensei as your training partner, I speak from experience. I have gone to seminars in both America and Daikomyosais in Japan as well as showing up week after week to a Japanese shihan and even occasionally having them as uke. I also have people give me tapes from American teachers like Hayes and we watch them. So I know the differences and speak from experience.

Don, I understand that in the last couple of years Hayes has added A home study program. I did not consider that his primary vehicle of instruction. I most certainly AGREE with the fact that things can be left out in a video or in a seminar situation.

I was hoping that you would highlight holes in the curriculum or techinique itself. Nimravus had mentioned no ukemi, which was misinformation, but I was hoping for info. along those lines.


But I have come to overcome my shock and put aside my reverance for people who started before me.

I feel you on this. After training and working with Hayes, he lost some of his sparkle.



I state that there is a lot of things that Hayes seems to have never learned or is leaving out that should be left in.

Okay, what?



Sorry if I sound a little down on Hayes. But I honestly can't think that he really knows enough to make the changes he did and not throw the baby out with the bath water when I hear about people like the 20 year student.

As for the changing and updating that Windwarrior is talking about...
Hayes has included a code of mindful action and a student creed that are basic Buddhist precepts, but they are not taught as Buddhist, so as not to offend other religions.

Because of litigation and what is "self-defense" in the US, some of the kamae use open hands with the palms facing the aggressor. This is done to give the appear one does not want to fight. The language substituted for kiai are also in reflective of try to stop the fight peacably. If a witness saw you with your hands open and trying to tell a person "stop, I don't want to fight". It would hold up better in court that you were just trying to protect yourself and weren't looking to intentionally break the persons wrist, arm, etc.

I am glad that Hayes at least looked at and responded to the legal aspects of defending oneself in the US. He may or may not be doing it the best, but I would rather have some of the knowledge going into the fight/ hostile situation rather than spend time in prison doing something I didn't realize was illegal or implied consent with my body language.

Nimravus, I would still argue that the instructor hasn't wasted their time if the soccer mom was able to use ukemi. As a teacher (high school social studies) I always feel satisfied when a student makes any improvement-- regardless of their skill or commitment level.

[MrFunnieman]

So this is a benefit she wouldn't have had if she were in the Bujinkan instead?

She could have the same benefit, sure. As it get's mentioned on the boards- not all school are created equally- if classes are designed to give the indepth knowledge that you and I seek I doubt it would seduce a "soccer mom" to train.

That's not to say a school can't have two courses of study. One that is self-defense oriented broken down into steps and some what easy for the average person to disgest . And one that is geared to a more traditional program for students who want more depth to their studies (Shadows of Iga).

We tend to get caught up in the philosophy of the subject, but let me reiterate that economics plays a role too. I don't know who on the board owns or plans to own a school, but to make a living teaching full-time one has to create a product for a wide demographic of people.

I am confident that a senior student of To-shin Do could fit into a BBT class with little effort. Most of the senior intructors of To-shin Do studied BBT YEARS before there ever was To-shin Do.


I do agree that whether or not the self-defense aspect is particularly prevalent or not depends largely of what that particular school decides to emphasize, not necessarily on the overall functionality of the Takamatsuden arts.

I want to savor this... you said we agree! :supcool:


No, No, not what I am sayig at all. Im saying one seems to have a set curriculum with specific techniques for each belt level... and the other does not.

My misunderstanding, but I thought it was more funny the way I interpreted your comment.

It's true, you have to master certain skills before you can advance to the next belt. Is this not so for the Bujinkan? Certainly there are mile stones for advancing? An aptitude for the Kihon Happo? Certain kata or ryu-ha? I don't really know. I have had brief experiences with three BBT schools. One was in the basement of a guys house. They trained pretty hard and there were only a handful of people. One was in a warehouse originally owned by Shawn Havens, former student of Mr. Hayes (pre- TSD) and the third was a To-shin Do instructor in Dayton and left to start his own school in the Bujinkan. He was a sandan in Hayes's school and was licensed in Bujinkan with relative ease (as far as I know). I am not sure who sponsered him for his BBT licensure.

My overall impression is that things are more similar that folks are willing to admit. There are some obvious differences and others are more discrete, but overall BBT people handle TSD well and vice versa.

You say potato, I say potato. (You all know what I mean)

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

As a teacher (high school social studies) I always feel satisfied when a student makes any improvement-- regardless of their skill or commitment level.

I've heard similar comments before, and there is a significant difference between high school and budo practice - one of them is compulsory. The levels of commitment can't really be compared.


She could have the same benefit, sure. As it get's mentioned on the boards- not all school are created equally- if classes are designed to give the indepth knowledge that you and I seek I doubt it would seduce a "soccer mom" to train.

So what? If I had encountered Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu for the first time nowadays I probably never would have started training. If I had had the slightest idea as to what I would be able to expect from enrolling, the likelihood would have decreased even more. Looking back on it now however, of course I feel it was worth it. Know I meen, know I meen?


That's not to say a school can't have two courses of study. One that is self-defense oriented broken down into steps and some what easy for the average person to disgest . And one that is geared to a more traditional program for students who want more depth to their studies (Shadows of Iga).

Just remembered a nice analogy about traditional martial arts..."we're not an express elevator to the 5th floor, we're more of a freight elevator to the 20th".


We tend to get caught up in the philosophy of the subject, but let me reiterate that economics plays a role too. I don't know who on the board owns or plans to own a school, but to make a living teaching full-time one has to create a product for a wide demographic of people.

Personally, I find the idea of people teaching traditional martial arts for a living ridiculous, but that's another discussion. Have at thee, bad rep points! %-}


I am confident that a senior student of To-shin Do could fit into a BBT class with little effort. Most of the senior intructors of To-shin Do studied BBT YEARS before there ever was To-shin Do.

Never met any, so I couldn't tell.


I want to savor this... you said we agree! :supcool:

There's a first time for everything.

[MrFunnieman]

Personally, I find the idea of people teaching traditional martial arts for a living ridiculous, but that's another discussion. Have at thee, bad rep points! %-}


This is off topic, but I am not sure what you mean by your last line. I have never given ANYONE rep. points-- positive or negative. To be truthful-- I don't know how-- and I didn't realize I had any until I started investigating my Control Panel, which I rarely check. Honestly, I interpreted the line as you zinging me with points.

I try and take these discussions seriously, but not to heart. :)

Still thankful we agree on one thing... but not everything :) ,
MrFunnieman

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Actually, I said that because I expected to receive at least some negative feedback from people who may frequent this site and do teach martial arts for a living. Guess it was smart of me to write "ridiculous" instead of "reproachable".

[bydand]

Most of the senior intructors of To-shin Do studied BBT YEARS before there ever was To-shin Do.

True for all the senior instructors I know. Also a couple of the Instructors I know have left To-Shin-Do and returned to the BBT without any problem. I think if you were totally To-Shin-Do then went BBT, there would be a period of adjustment to go through because although the techniques are 99% the same, the method and order of teaching them are different. BBT to To-Shin-Do would probably be a bit easier, but there would still be an adjustment period. Just like going from one school to another. NO 2 Quest centers I have ever been to have the EXACT same training methods and order. They seem to have the same basic training lay-out, but the individual instructors also introduce their own "Extras". When the BBT school I started in switched over to To-Shin-Do there was no change in what, or how we were taught (right at the beginning, so they were still working out the final "course materials".)

[windwarrior]

There is no point in me posting further.
all you want to do is insult me and i have better things to do with my time.
like training for one .

[Don Roley]

When the BBT school I started in switched over to To-Shin-Do there was no change in what, or how we were taught (right at the beginning, so they were still working out the final "course materials".)

That cuts to the heart of the matter.

I look at what the heads of the respective orginizations do and reccomend and I see differences. I look at schools in America and I see that many people are still influenced by early Hayes stuff- both Bujinkan and not.

Recently I ranted about how I saw many people over the years who had been teaching sword work who finally showed up to learn how to swing the damn things at Someya. There is a lot more stuff that many Bujinkan people still think of as being from Hatsumi that is actually from Hayes. I once even had some guy ask my teacher if the techniques he was showing were to be done with a certain elemental feeling. He explained that the san shin elements were not really feelings, merely a means of counting.

Hatsumi has been calling for people to come to Japan, or train with people that do. Hopefully there will be a slow pull towards how things are done in Japan and prior misconceptions can be done away with. Now that Hayes has started Toshindo, maybe less people will be confused. But there is still a lot of stuff that is not really Bujinkan being taught as such.

[saru1968]

Funny you should post that but we had a short thread

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49465

looking at the usage of the SKH elemental approach. I see very little in my circles compared to the earlier years.


But apart from the elemental approach people make posts saying the training is the same, you can transfer back and forth with ease but this can't be so as otherwise why the need for a new 'system'.(not opening can of worms here with any further comment)

I've seen some of the syllabus and i can see where it comes from but its not the same.

What to learn Bujinkan? learn Bujinkan.

What to learn Toshindo? learn Toshindo.

Simply really.

[evolution combat]

ok lets just start with a dont get defensive straight away....... yes he shouldnt make accusations about any particular style but the fact of the matter is he should have a confedince in his own style and you have the no right to slam him down about it..... todays street society is ever changing any martial set by rules or bounds obviously isn't goin to keep up. you mention you taking rifle and wat not lesson well that dont mean ****, that aint goin to help u even if you have the killer instinct to pull the trigger cos lets face it if something happens and you have the time to get a gun and fire it well you aint defending yourself anymore your attacking,,, let me ask you another question how many fights on the street have you been in, me i grown up on the other side of the fence and if your trying to analyse your every move it wont work, you do a martial art for self benifit reasons not to take lives or even really fight, cos no matter how good you r u, it only takes one luky hit

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

"Yo peep this: la di da di, we like to party, we don't cause trouble, we don't bother nobody, we're just some men that's on the mic, and when we rock upon the mic we rock the mic right..."

[Bigshadow]

"Yo peep this: la di da di, we like to party, we don't cause trouble, we don't bother nobody, we're just some men that's on the mic, and when we rock upon the mic we rock the mic right..."

Huh? :idunno:

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slick_Rick

[Arachne]

Similarities between To-Shin Do and the Bujinkan?

In anyway, could one be said to complement the other, or vice versa?

[Cryozombie]

In anyway, could one be said to complement the other, or vice versa?

Sure it could be said.

Would it be RIGHT?

That's another issue, there.

[Arachne]

Precisely to the point Cryozombie, there is another issue here.
The main difference is Orthodox Bujinkan was suited for Samurai Warriors, with Samurai weapons wearing Samurai armour.
Why else was Taijutsu developed for? To hunt pigs?

[stephen]

Precisely to the point Cryozombie, there is another issue here.
The main difference is Orthodox Bujinkan was suited for Samurai Warriors, with Samurai weapons wearing Samurai armour.
Why else was Taijutsu developed for? To hunt pigs?

So....Takamatsu sensei always wore "Samurai armour"?

[saru1968]

The main difference is Orthodox Bujinkan was suited for Samurai Warriors, with Samurai weapons wearing Samurai armour.



err..............No

[Don Roley]

The main difference is Orthodox Bujinkan was suited for Samurai Warriors, with Samurai weapons wearing Samurai armour.

Please, just stop. I understand you are a student of Gary Arthur and are repeating word for word what he has said. But as you have been told in another thread, he was banned here for his own actions. He seemed to do his best to try to cause trouble and none of us are sad for his banning. We have a few people here that study Toshindo that are decent and are slowly reducing the damage to it's reputation Gary Arthur did to it.

I urge you to read a lot more and realize that what you are hearing from your teacher is a sales pitch and one side of the story. If you have not spent several years in the Bujinkan, you really should not be making statements like the one above. We do not want the constant flame wars we used to see here before certain people were banned. Please do not continue their crusade.

[Kreth]

I understand you are a student of Gary Arthur and are repeating word for word what he has said.
Don, you misspelled "what he is dictating." Please be more careful in the future.



:uhyeah:

[Cryozombie]

Precisely to the point Cryozombie, there is another issue here.
The main difference is Orthodox Bujinkan was suited for Samurai Warriors, with Samurai weapons wearing Samurai armour.
Why else was Taijutsu developed for? To hunt pigs?

Sorry... are YOU telling ME what Bujinkan training is?

Hahahahahahahaha.

Ahem. Sorry.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

[saru1968]

Sorry... are YOU telling ME what Bujinkan training is?

Hahahahahahahaha.

Ahem. Sorry.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.


Yeah, but remember its the REAL stuff from the 80's...

:-)

[Arachne]

But wheres the Samurai's?

[saru1968]

But wheres the Samurai's?


Samuari's what?

or are you talking plural?

[Arachne]

"even monkeys fall from trees"

But where's the Samurai?

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Explain your question please.

[SKB]

I have had the chance to train with a few folks from the Bujinkan. They seem more formal then the other people I train with. Even in the way they move. Reminds me of when I used to train in other arts were everything is done just right or you are wrong. A few of these people have started training in To-Shin Do where I train at. When I ask them the diffrence the main thing I hear is the presentation. I can not comment on what they mean but there is less formality in To-Shin Do, at least where I train at, then other arts I have studied.

[Arachne]

Don: "I understand you are a student of Gary Arthur and are repeating word for word what he has said".


I am not copying Gary Arthur word for word....
As Kreth wrote, please be more careful in the future.


What I have said is a personal summary based on the little I have been taught & read. Im noob, errors are to be expected.


Don "Please do not continue their crusade."


What crusade?!
Who is they/their?


No one is storming a fortress or fighting some infidel Don!


You are seeing it as a "crusade". I wonder... WHY do YOU see it like that Don?


Personally I am interested in Ninjutsu as a whole, which include's the entire family tree, all branches, roots, etc.
That is to say, I am not on the side of just Bujinkan or Toshindo,
I am on both & open to views from all sides.
To truly answer THE ORIGINAL QUESTION it will require analysis from an objective view.
That is not taking anything slightly vs Bujinkan as personally/sensitively as a rigid pastor take's criticism vs Jesus.


In regard of the original question
Differences between To-Shin Do and the Bujinkan?


following on from SKB


this idea of formality is something also evident in some Muay Thai.
I only trained for 4 months but the focus was on technique & formality.
A technique and form which was, as if, there is only ONE WAY to kick, and you must kick THIS WAY only.



Saru wrote "Yeah, but remember its the REAL stuff from the 80's..."


1.So from this im gathering that, Bujinkan came before Toshindo?


If this is so -
thinking of the entire Ninjutsu as a family tree,
Was Bujinkan there in the genesis, was it the seed which founded all subsequent growth? Did it come after? If so, at which date? At which historical era?


2. Im curious of why you put "REAL" in capital letters. Is this some attempt to deny Toshindo reality and suggest its some sort of illusion that does'nt work when Stephen Haye's has clearly proved it is real?

[bydand]

Dude, you have to format that mess. I can't follow what is supposed to be a quote, what is a reply, or what is just a statement for the most part.

Also, it is a wise man who listens to what Mr. Roley has to say. He knows more about the history and "connections" of the whole Ninjutsu tree (including where To-Shin Do fits into the picture) than probably anybody else on this forum (No offense to anybody else, just my opinion.)

I also train To-Shin Do, started Bujinkan and when the school stayed with SKH when he "formed" To-Shin Do, I stuck with my Instructors because there is nothing else even remotely close up here. I have learned more about the history and development of the Bujinkan right here on Martial Talk than I have by any other means. Keep calm in actions and posts, and you will learn the missing pieces; fire up a flame war and nobody will answer your questions or posts, including me. Simmer down, don't take offense where none is intended and LISTEN to the answers given. Nobody here has ever belittled what I train, shoot I am willing to bet nobody really CARED what I trained in. :)

When we switched as a school there was NO change in training, none, zip, nada. The difference was the sign out front and instead of the nice white to green to black belts worn, we went to the jeezly rainbow conglomeration To-Shin Do follows. Man I miss the days of simplicity with the belts, probably my biggest gripe! The Instructors here continued to go to Japan to train with Hatsumi Soke, and as far as I know did right up to last summer.

[SKB]

If your instructors changed nothing but the sign out front, what is the real differerces between To-Shin Do and the Bujinkan? Besides the color of the belts. I think this post clears up the entire subject. If the only change was the sign out front and the color belts then we have everyones answer do we not?

[Don Roley]

If your instructors changed nothing but the sign out front, what is the real differerces between To-Shin Do and the Bujinkan? Besides the color of the belts. I think this post clears up the entire subject. If the only change was the sign out front and the color belts then we have everyones answer do we not?

I think the real difference is that Toshindo is going the way of Hayes, while those of us in the Bujinkan are going the way of Hatsumi. Yes, Hayes had a big influence on the early instructors of the Bujinkan. He taught many of the teachers that taught the later teachers, etc.

But there were many, many mistakes passed along do to their inexperience. We all make mistakes and they are no worse than the rest of us. So those of us in the Bujinkan trying to master the art as passed down to Hatsumi continue to challenge our preconceptions and maintain a contact with those that can get the corrections of our bad habits so that we may become more like Takamatsu, Hatsumi and all the others that we admire.

It is not about more techniques. It is trying to find out the mistakes that we have been doing and correcting them.

PS- thank you Bydand for the kind words.

[bydand]

If your instructors changed nothing but the sign out front, what is the real differerces between To-Shin Do and the Bujinkan? Besides the color of the belts. I think this post clears up the entire subject. If the only change was the sign out front and the color belts then we have everyones answer do we not?

Well...... yes and no. How's that for a concrete answer :). Yes as it pertained to the dojo I was training in, and I can only make that statement for that ONE. I visited SKH's Dayton school before the switch and his training was different than my regular school. As it stands now, I cannot answer the question about how different the arts are now. Remember the switch came about 8 or 9 years ago. In that amount of time there are going to be differences that crop up, but being so close to something you don't see what those subtle differences are, until time has passed and you step into a dojo of the "parent art." I haven't been in a Bujinkan Dojo in quite some time, so my perspective of BBT training methods are likely off at this time. I do know the main Instructor in this area (Northern Maine) of To-Shin Do did continue to visit Japan and train with Hatsumi right up to a short time ago. What the other Instructors continued to do after the switch/split I cannot answer.

[SKB]

Where I was trying to go with my last comment was to find out from some of the Bujinkan folks what is the differences? I keep reading how Mr. Hayes and To-Shin Do are not what Mr. Hatsumi is teaching in Japan. Well how are things diffrent? What are we missing which is being taught in the Bujinkan?

[bydand]

Where I was trying to go with my last comment was to find out from some of the Bujinkan folks what is the differences? I keep reading how Mr. Hayes and To-Shin Do are not what Mr. Hatsumi is teaching in Japan. Well how are things diffrent? What are we missing which is being taught in the Bujinkan?

I think this is kind of a loaded question. For a Bujinkan person to explain exactly the differences in training in the Bujinkan and To-Shin Do they would have to be very well versed in both arts, and right up to date with both at the same time. I can see from years back the differences or similarities between the two, but not recent. I think it would also fall on the shoulders of the individual Instructors of the dojos you are comparing. You want an HUGE difference in training methods and a smaller difference in material? Look no further than our own art and look at different schools. Dayton is different than Presque Isle which is different than Portland which is different than ... (pick your own entry here). What SKH is teaching cannot be dead-nuts the same as Hatsumi Soke is teaching because they are different people in different areas; same as what John Poliquin, Brett Varnum, Marc Jobin, and any number of Instructors I've trained with are not exactly the same as SKH within the same organization.

I know this just muddies the water, but I hope you get where I intended to go with my post. Not bashing anybody, their training methods, or even who they are affliated with, but it would be damn near impossable to answer the question just as you asked it.

[saru1968]

No idea, as Byland has said you would need someone with a good amount of current time in both arts.

To be honest i would not worry, if you are new to one art i would concentrate on that one rather than worry about the differeces.

I've never seen a Toshindo class yet, so can't comment and doubtful one lesson would give me any deep to comment anyhow, the reverse applies.

[SKB]

I wasn't trying to post a loaded question. I have just seen post saying To-Shin Do is 'diffrent' or not even Ninjutsu. I was trying to find out what is different. I was trying to find out if folks were commenting from a position of knowledge or are they just making comments?

[bydand]

I wasn't trying to post a loaded question. I have just seen post saying To-Shin Do is 'diffrent' or not even Ninjutsu. I was trying to find out what is different. I was trying to find out if folks were commenting from a position of knowledge or are they just making comments?


Didn't mean you posted it purposely to trip people up, just that it would be very difficult to find someone who could answer the way it was asked.

[SKB]

That is why I asked it. Some folks on here post as if they do have the amount of knowledge to be qualified to "tell" the rest of us how things are. SOOOOOO OK, break it down for us/me! Start at the begining and school me!!!!!! I mean technique by technique, concept by concept and not broad based subjects. Let's do the nuts and bolts. Is 'Shizen No Kame' not the same thing in both?

[Shizen]

On this subject I am interested to know what people have seen different in the way To Shin Do and BBT do the kihon happo ie how it is taught what thing are stressed and stuff like that. I know that every teacher teaches these different ways, just curios on any big differences you guys have seen.

[saru1968]

That is why I asked it. Some folks on here post as if they do have the amount of knowledge to be qualified to "tell" the rest of us how things are. SOOOOOO OK, break it down for us/me! Start at the begining and school me!!!!!! I mean technique by technique, concept by concept and not broad based subjects. Let's do the nuts and bolts. Is 'Shizen No Kame' not the same thing in both?

I think you might be onto a hard job with this approach.

You will find duplicate Kamae in both Arts for good reason as the source of some of the material was Hatsumi Sensei.

But because Two Arts have the same Kamae does not mean they are used in the same fashion.

Both Arts could have Kihon Happo but does not make them the same.

Such a big question, doubtful you will get a conclusive reply.

Just think of the arts as two different cars with different features. Afetr all most cars have doors, they are called doors.

but the way they open changes from car to car, the colour changes as per the car's colour, the design will change from model to model but they are still doors.

Gaz.