Anyone here train in this guy's Mu Tau system? I've seen a few articles on the system some time back, and B&N has one of his books, but I'd like to hear from someone within the system.

Cthulhu

Hasn't this guy been around doing Pankration since dirt was invented? Heh heh heh...

Yep! I'm sure many of us have seen his pictures in old MA magazines...big white guy with big afro :)

I think he's been developing Mu Tau since the early 70's. It claims to be pankration based wrestling with more strikes thrown in.

Cthulhu

I know it's going to be a demonstration sport at the Greece olympics, but does anyone know the status of the competitors?

I ask because there is a guy I know looking to make the Canadian team. I heard Keith Hackney of Kenpo fame and UFC fame is part of the USA coaching team.

Any other info?

No offense to Hackney or any other kenpo stylist, but doesn't he seeem an odd choice for this type of team? You'd think they would have gotten Arvantis himself, or perhaps a Gracie or Machado.

Personally, I'd like to see Jay :)

Cthulhu

Seems Hackney delved right into the grappling aspect of nhb and went head first into pankration.

Arvantis I hear is dead against the greece olympic coalition as he says it is not true pankration but that it's a bunch of wannabes. Some weird stuff going on.

You'd think he'd want to use it as a venue to promote his Mu Tau system, especially after all this time. Methinks he's shooting himself in the foot.

I wonder if any prominent shootfighters are going to enter.

Cthulhu

I think he's pissed because they didn't make him the head or something or that he feels it's not real PK and that it's a money grab.

Pretty adament about it.

Unfortunately, that does seem to be the case.

On a side note, my local B&N has a copy of his Mu Tau book in again. Man, he needs a haircut!

Cthulhu

Does it seem odd to anyone else that arvantis is the only guy who knows about a martial art that is like, 3,000 years old? It's kind of silly to argue about what's "real pankration", when the only evidence of it is drawn on a few vases. IMHO, it's just a marketing thing.

Didn't I see an ad in Black Belt for his instructional course? One vase a month, first month is kitrinos, second month is portokali, with the last the mavros vase. After a year or so, you have the complete system as well as a nice collection for your china cabinet.

- Kyle

Cancel at any time! Keep only those vases you want! And if you act know, we will include this fabulous Mesopotamian firearms course! :rofl:

Arvantis.....he's like 6'2" ........... 6'5" with the afro:)

(I can't take the credit - that line is from Fletch):shrug:

Oohh....those vases would really compliment my Norman Rockwell plate collection! :)

Originally posted by Icepick
Does it seem odd to anyone else that arvantis is the only guy who knows about a martial art that is like, 3,000 years old? It's kind of silly to argue about what's "real pankration", when the only evidence of it is drawn on a few vases. IMHO, it's just a marketing thing.

I largely agree, thoug I suppose with the growth in popularity of the Oriental arts at the time there may also have been a national pride issue ("We too have ancient fighting arts, or at least we did."). Even in the 70s it seemed clear to me that this was about making money not mastering martial arts, and that much must have been reconstructed (like the new mythology of some Korean systems).

I like the vase-of-the-month club approach!

Bake -

I had you pegged as a "hummel" kind of guy...

Originally posted by Icepick
Does it seem odd to anyone else that arvantis is the only guy who knows about a martial art that is like, 3,000 years old? It's kind of silly to argue about what's "real pankration", when the only evidence of it is drawn on a few vases. IMHO, it's just a marketing thing.


Icepick,
From what I've read, and the amount of time Mr.Arvantis has publicly stated his skills. I gotta believe he is the real deal. I don't recall his m.a. roots, but I think his approach is reminisent of Bruce Lee's. I do recall the mentioning of research being one of the cornerstones of his system. Hence the Pankration/M.T. connection? Not a claim of singular knowledge of a centuries old system. Just my 2 cents based on material I have read.
Salute in Christ,
Donald :asian:

donald -

I've never seen Mr. Arvanitis, and he may be an outstanding martial artist. My point is that it is ridiculous to argue what is "real pankration", when there is so little recorded about it. To assume that only Jim Arvanitis knows whether Achilles knew how to use a heel hook is silly. The techniques propounded as "real pankration" have all been used for some time in other martial arts, and there has been no continuous practice of pankration. If you are choosing techniques from other styles, and repackaging them as "pankration", you are just marketing yourself as an expert of this "ancient" martial art.

JAMA is the closest thing I've seen to an academic journal on martial arts, and I've never seen the fruit of research on ancient pankration.

JAMA is great! Unfortunately, I haven't picked one up for quite some time ($10 per issue!). However, in the past 6 years or so, I've never seen an article on pankration.

Then again, JAMA stands for 'Journal of Asian Martial Arts', which could partly explain the reason it doesn't cover pankration :)

Cthulhu

Originally posted by GouRonin

Seems Hackney delved right into the grappling aspect of nhb and went head first into pankration.

Arvantis I hear is dead against the greece olympic coalition as he says it is not true pankration but that it's a bunch of wannabes. Some weird stuff going on.

I just found this thread. Keith is a friend as is Tom Saviano who is also involved in Pankration. I don't know that much about what's going on because it really is not my thing. If you have some questions, I could ask both Keith and Tom Saviano about it and get back to you on it.

Considering pancration was rarely mentioned before Arvanitis, he has a point. His effort is to bring it back as close as possible, therefore the standup grappling is Greco Roman, the strikes are like Muay Thai etc. And by Icepick's own thing, no style "owns" a technique.

Greece is very big on eastern arts and the "new" pancration recently developed in Greece is practically a karate ripoff. They also wanted the demonstration to be them doing forms in flesh-covered gis. Arvanitis said he would not be involved in the Olympic version if it stayed that way.

The current US team for 2004 has Keith Hackney, Ken Shamrock, Dan Severn, Micheal DePausquale, Sheldon Marr etc. as coaches and trainers.

Pancration's been featured in Black Belt, Grappling Magazine, etc.