A few informatioanl corrections

[DoctorB]

The following are statements made by Bob Hubbard, which I find to be in error and in need of correction bacause the statements made are based on assumptions not clearly defined facts:

>The interesting thing is that to the best of my knowledge, Bram >Frank and Tom Bolden are friends of Barbers, as well as >business associates. (Barber is a distributor for Brams >"Gunting", for example.) Dan Anderson regularly does seminars >with Barber when he is in town. The endorement lacks >impartiality.

Here we go again, half truths based on faulty information and speculation. I am so glad that you couched your remarks with the expression "…to the best of my knowledge…" because you are in error. Both Bram and Tom are long time friends and I was introduced to both of them through Professor Presas. We ARE NOT business associates!!!

I am not and never have been a distributor of the "Gunting" for Bram or Spyderco! You are in total error! I believe that the "Gunting" is the best combat folding knife on the market to date and no other knife that I am aware of has the three functions of impact, joint-locking and cutting within one tool.
I am a dedicated cheerleader and make no apology for that, but
I AM NOT a distributor! BTW, you and all of the other local WMAA people missed Bram's 2002 Gunting Seminars in September 2002. Perhaps if some of your friends and classmates had attended the seminars and/or the Symposium, you would understand why I am willing to work toward gettting a wider recognition of the potentials of the "Gunting" for self defense
and LEO usage!

Regarding Dan Anderson, we meet in 2002 and I did help him get several seminars in 2003. I helped a friend and my Modern Arnis senior because that is exactly what I would do for anyone whose abilities/skills/personality I respect. Am I to believe that only the WMAA people are allowed to help someone? Or if someone is a WMAA member they should not accept my help or work with me?

Think what you want of my review and endorsement, but get your facts straight. Beware of the criticism that you are throwing out, because you have a conflict of interest when you side with the WMAA on any matters, since that group is a sponsor of your forum. What applies to one should apply to all.

>Additionally, Tim Kashino & Paul Martin are or were students of >Barbers. Both Vargas and Muhammad have or had a business >relationship with Barber. I am unaware of what relationship >there is with Mr. Ralston.

Actually, Bob, Guro Kashino and Guro Martin, are long past being my students… they are "former students" and are referred to as "my training partners" since they opened their own training programs years ago. They have long ago ceased to be under my influence nor do they have to worry about what I think. Both Kashino and Martin, were presenters in their own right, representing themselves, not me or the IEAA at the Symposium.

With regard to Sifu Vargas, this was my first opportunity to work with him as a presenter at a program that I coordinated. I have witnessed his continued development as a student of PG Tom Bolden over a 6 – 7 year period and I believed that he ready to assume a prominent position as a lead teacher in the FMAs without regard to any particular system.

I first met Sensei/Guro Muhammad in 2001 at the GOE2. I invited him to teach at the Eskrima-Kenpo Camp in 2002 in Buffalo. BTW, you missed that one too, even though your instructor was a presenter. Guro Muhammad’s presentations in 2002 were so well received by the people in attendance, I asked him to be on the Symposium instructional team. My faith in his abilities was more than vindicated at the Symposium when he was given one of the highest ratings by the participants and the peers who evaluated him. Please note, I did not have a vote. One of the people in attendance, who has gone to some 8 to 10 seminars and camps with Guro Muhammad, but have never seen him teach was amazed at the level of skills demonstrated by this man. He expressed a genuine feeling of respect for someone whom he thought that he knew, only to realize that there was much more that his friend could and did do as a martial artist with his training in four disciplines. BTW, your instructor refused to participate as a peer evaluator at the Symposium… his own decision to make, but he was asked.

You are playing too fast and loose with the term "business associates".

>All of those cited by Dr. Barber as being exceptional are in some >way connected to him. Those he does not mention, are not. >The 'Rub' being given in this review smacks of 'good ol >boy'ness.

I am sorry Bobby, but I must correct you again! I have been associated with one of the people whom I did not mention for quite some time. In fact I have known him since about 1984 when he first begining his Modern Arnis studies under Guro John Bryant at the Filipino Martial Arts Academy in Amherst, NY. He and I co-hosted Professor at semnars and camps from 1987 - 1994. I also attended his WMAA Camps in West Seneca in 2002 and 2003. However, since he stated that the Symposium meant nothing to him, why should I connect him to an event that he clearly and publicly dismissed? It was his call and I merely took and accepted him at his word.

The "old boy" concept can be said for you, your friends and associates who have engaged in all of the "barber-bashing" even though most have never met me, trained with me, or attended the Symposium. They are relying on second hand information and reacting to what has already been posted. It is so easy to be critical of me, but since I relied on the evaluations of each instructor as given by the Symposium participants and their peers, your baseless charge of "olboy’ness" is without merit. In addition, you should ask your WMAA associates who attended to Symposium, if evaluations forms were handed out to each and every person on the floor after each presentation on Friday and Saturday. You were not there, so you would not know without asking. My review was based on the scores that the participants gave. And aside from telling you and this forum readership about the evaluations, I have not and will not go into who got the highest and lowest ratings or any gradation in between. That was never the purpose behind the evaluations. The ratings simply allowed me to make a small distinction in certificate titles presnted at the closing of the Symposium.

>The instructors I was interested in seeing bailed, and the >majority of those placed on the bill held little interest to me >given the lack of Arnis flavor. I train with Tim, and support his >events.

Now that last one is not a biased statement is it? I have hosted 3 events in the Buffalo area since joining martial talk and posted announcements about each one. You have never attended one! On the other hand I have attended two (2) WMMA Camps, but
according to you, I am the one who is biased?!

>I've seen Dan at a few camps and am currently (slowly) working >through his books. The only 'name' in the Arnis world that was >still on the bill, and made it in was Dieter. I regret not spending >more time chatting with him when I had the chance b4 the >event. The rest of the bill either were outside my areas of >interest, or weren't Arnis. I wanted to see Kelly Worden, Dan M. >and a few of the other names who dropped out. The >replacements didn't interest me, competent though they were.

Thank you for allowing that the replacements were competent, but this is an already tired refrain, Bobby! I have seen this one too many times prior to the Symposium to take it seriously now that the event has come and gone. You are also showing your bias when you resort to the ‘name’ and ‘big name’ context. The Symposium was all about coming together to share information and demonstrate skills. It was never presnted by me as being about ranks, titles and major or minor organizations. That is your stated position, not mine!

In fact some of your readers have, in the past, prior to the Symposium, been very critical of people like Datu Kelly Worden, Dr. Randi Shea, The MoTTs, Jeff Delaney and Lisa McManus. Now you want to turn the world upside down and contend that your non-attendance was predicated on the fact that these people did not attend and present!? Bobby, that is a very bad case of wanting to have it both ways. And I have to ask you this pertinant question that I have asked on another thread, "what do you mean by the term arnis and what exactly is the real Remy Presas Modern Arnis, from your perspective"?

It is also interesting to me that you and others have expressed such a concern that Datu Kelly Worden was not going to be attending the Symposium, but ignored the fact that some people whom he named as important Modern Arnis instructors were going to be on the program: Tom Bolden, Bram Frank, David Ng and Dan Anderson - see realfighting.com, volume 4, Datu Kelly's interview. Your statement is just a bit too self-serving.

BTW, if I were able to arrange for Datu Kelly to come to Buffalo for a seminar or weekend camp, could I count on you to attend? More importantly, would you be willing to pay up-front?

>I think a more important point here is, for an event that was so >big, the fact that the 'names' and players choose to avoid it >speaks volumes. Dr.B did get 2 out of the 6 Datus to instruct. >But Kelly and Tim are regularly doing that. There were no >Presas' there...They were at Kellys. Of the US based >organizations, neither IMAF faction, nor the WMAC had a >leadship presence. Only the WMAA was there in person. Dieter >represented Germany...but where was the Philipians rep? At >Kellys.

Bobby, you are assuming that these people did not attend because of me! However, you are absolutely incorrect! You and your friends need to re-read some of Datu Kelly’s remarks written prior to the Symposium on both your forum and his own. His was never critical of me! He was critical of some East Coast people and the "war" that they were engaged in.

You do not know about the private conversations that I had with some of the people that you are intimating passed on the Symposium because of who was putting it on. No, no, my boy, the real reason some people did not want to participate was because of several other factors, expressed in confidence and which I will hold in confidence. I do not make private messages and discussions public on a forum so as to enlarge my own image or create an illusion to the truth. And if you are saying that only the Presas Kids can be the Philippines rep at a Modern Arnis event, you have most certainly insulted and ignored a large number of other people. Again your arrogance and biases are showing.

>So, given the choice between training with a few folks I've >already seen, and the replacement B team, or doing something fun, exciting and possibly profitable, I picked the later.

>Bob Hubbard 10-14-2003

That "replacement B team" as you have referred to them, has more skill, knowledge and background in Modern Arnis than
most of the people currently training within the art. In addition
no one on the WMAA leadership team was at the 2 week camps under Professor, nor is it very likely that they even attended the one week camps. I have the official rosters of both of the 2 week camps, no WMAA, IMAF, or IMAF Inc leader aside from Dr. Randi Schea, appears on the rosters. The "replacement B team" is represented on the rosters that I have.

In addition, if you refer back to Datu Kelly's interview mentioned above, you should take note of the fact that PG Tom Bolden, PG Billy Brayant, PG Douglas Pierre and Datu Kelly were the FIRST Modern Arnis instructors to be recognized outside of the IMAF and Professor, for their skills and positive presentations of the art. That was at the World Martial Arts Hall of Fame in 1993. I was recognized in 1994 by the same organization, in part because of my demonstration of the Modern Arnis at the 1993 event and for establishment of the Erie Community College martial arts program for academic credit which was approved by Professor Pesas. I like the "replacement B team" because the members have a very high skill level.

>The simple truth is that of all the major US orgs, only the WMAA >was there, and were repayed by Barbers little game of one->upmanship. Its a case of someone who doesn't have much 'pull' >in the Arnis world trying to be the big fish, and the real big fish >mostly ignored him.

Well, well, well, here we go again, now it is about the "major" and minor organizations. The perception of the WMAA as a "major" organization is yours. It can certainly be shared by others, however that does not make it a fact and there are people who would disagree with you. Since I have never engaged in defining "major" and "minor" designations this point is moot for me.

How quickly you have sided with the IMAF and IMAF Inc., plus Datu Kelly Worden when it suits your purposes. "Big Fish"? I think not! I never wanted to be known as such in the Modern Arnis World. All of my drive was directed toward getting a good variety of teachers to come to Buffalo to teach me and my students above and beyond Modern Arnis. If there is a good Modern Arnis player coming to the Buffalo area then my students and I will attend the event. If someone is coming into the region, I will try to get them to do a seminar for us. For instance, some of my students I will be attending the seminar to be given by Datu Shishir Inocalla, on November 16. Will you be there? Will any of your classmates be attending? Is Datu Shishir, a big enough name and major player for you?

As for what I said at the Symposium and/or in my posts to this or any other forum, I will stand behind my words. There was no gamesmanship or one-up-manship at the Symposium. I said what I meant! If someone did not like it or disagreed with it, then they should have had the strength of their convictions to talk with me at the Symposium. That did not happen!!! I was available and I spoke with most of the people at the event, so if someone failed to open a discussion with me, they should stand up and accept the responsibility for their own mistake.

>……..even with 3 of the 4 Top names in the Arnis world (Dan, >Dieter and Tim) at the >event, it still failed to be the 'event of >the century' as it was billed. Purhaps more time should have >been spent on promotion (a web site woulda been nice as a >central clearing >house of information) and organization (Food >Good) than the behind the scenes crap involving Barber and a >few of his students. Maybe letting people know about changes >in a timely manner? But thats more a reflection of the >character of the organizer (who double >booked himself on >events and never told the MT camp host he wasn't coming until >cornered and asked) than the quality of the event. (Anyone who >thinks I'm being harsh and is a late comer here, do a search on >the term "Norshadow"...it'll be clear.)

>Bob Hubbard 10-14-2003

That bias is showing through again, Bobby. You have shifted gears and now there were "...3 of the 4 Top names in the Arnis world..." at the Symsposium. What happened to the "names" and big fish you were alluding to earlier in your post?

That 'failure notion' is yours. It was not shared by the people who attended and posted reviews on mtc and elsewhere. Again, I have to remind you that the Symposium was not about rank and titles. It was about skill, knowledge and training concepts.
It was about sharing and talking. The Symposium was about
finding out about Professor taught at different periods of his instructional career.

Too many people have made it all about who would be there and who wouldn’t. I told you and everyone who would listen that the event was going to happen regardless of who showed and who stayed away. I did exactly what I said that I would do. People came. They participated. They talked to one another and that
sharing led to some new insights within the art of Modern Arnis, as taught by Professor then adapted by the various players. No one at the Symposium said to anyone else, ‘Hey, that’s wrong, that’s not what Professor taught me!’ No one said, ' that's not Modern Arnis!' No sir, Bobby, those comments were only written after the event and mostly by people who never attended!

Since I have never made any attempt to rank people in terms of being the top three, four or five people in Modern Arnis, I am going to let you and your instructor deal with that mess.

I will say this, I have never heard or seen anything by Dan Anderson, Dieter Knuttel or Kelly Worden (whom I am assuming you are counting as your fourth) claiming to be the top or among the top people in the art. They simply go out and demonstrate their considerable skills for anyone interested in working with them. That is you talking Bobby, and that is the kind of stuff that makes people mad.

As for missing the Effington, IL. event, that was a very wise decision on my part in retrospect. You bet I double-booked and it was quite deliberate. After the Symposium and suspension from this forum, the "barber-bashing" was quite intense. Now why would I want to attend an event where there was very likely going to be some open and hostile sentiments displayed against me? Why would I subject a gentleman whom I did not know to the prospect of having his event, tainted by some rude and nasty feelings, that he had no role in creating? So I accepted an invitation to do the program in Toronto, which turned out to be both successful and pleasant. I did notify the Effingham host, well before the event date and gave a brief reason for changing my plans.

It would have been fun to go to Effingham under different circumstances. BTW, the comments that were posted about me before the event were not very nice. That certinly bolstered my feeling that I was maaking the right decision for myself. Then, right after Effenham, in fact the Monday following the weekend of the Effingham mtc camp, there was that nasty, vile, personalized attack posted by a WMAA member, that led to his week long suspension. Boy oh boy does that make my decision not to go to Effingham look better and better as the days go by.

But on to current things, that stuff is all in the past. Now, it is time for me to continue moving forward and working on other projects that are in progress. The Symposium is behind me. Ooh, BTW, I never said that the Symposium would be the Modern Arnis event of the century… I said it would be the event of the year – 2003 – and it was! Look at how much space your forum has devoted to it, particularly after it was over. Look at the DVD. The Symposium has been recorded for history. In the end it does not matter who was there or not there, in the end what matters is that the event occurred as promised, even with the flaws and blemishes.

I did it! No one else can host the first one! And given all of the negative trash that has been generated through the posts on various threads, I doubt that anyone will try to bring all of you Modern Arnis people together again for a long, long time, if ever!

In my review of the DVD set, I said which needed to be said. Once again all of the trash talking that has been posted on mtc just reinforces my contention that Modern Arnis as we currently know it is destined to be a fractured system of small organizations fighting one another. Only people like yourself, Bobby, can really change that, if you have the strength and courage.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

[Bob Hubbard]

Hmm...Thats a lot to process there Jerm. I'll try and be brief though.

Concerning the Gunting:
I was under the impression that you were the distributor for it based on your enthusiiasm for it, and that several individuals had indicated that you were the contact person, not Bram. I will acept that I may have been misinformed. Who in the WNY area should one contact if one is interested in the Gunting and its related trainer?

Concerning Business Relationships:
Both Bram Frank and Tom Bolden do seminars here for you for free? There is no financial benefit when you have either hosted or otherwise brought them in?

Concerning Dan Anderson:
Dan already politely corrected me, so that was a moot point.

Concerning forum control/etc:
As I have stated privately, this forum is -NOT- run by the WMAA, nor does the WMAA have editorial control.

Concerning MY attendance at your events:
I'll be perfectly honest here. Some of them I was interested in, some not. Cash being as tight as it has been, I am forced to pick and choose which events I attend. So, if I have to choose between events that are within my own organizations, and those outside, my cash goes initially to those within the group within the areas of interest to me. In the last year and a half, I've been to events featuring Dr. Gyi, Datu Jornales, Huk Planas, Frank Trejo, and more. I've had to miss events featuring many equally tallented individuals. Sorry Jerm, but I'm not made outta money so can't support everyone. As to the Symp., well, the bill changed, and I had a chance to make some cash as well as have fun...so I did, and I did.

Hmm...actually Jerm.... I did attend..or rather pop in n say hello to a few folks. at at least 2 of your events. 1 was at ECC North, the other was something with Dan Anderson at ECC South. No, I didn't pay, but I did stop by to show support. I think (though I may be wrong) I even posted a message concerning the ECC-N event. (I believe I met Guro Muhammad and his wife there.)


Concerning the Symp. instructors:
Simply put Jerm, if ya do any amount of educated searching on the internet, you will find very little reference to most of em. The only ones of real importance were Deiter, Dan, Tim and Kelly. The rest of the folks, while competent, aren't 'names' in the business...or at least on the net...in fact I believe you and I were tied...

Concerning Why the interest in Kelly?
To settle a few past misunderstandings face to face. Now, if you brought him in for a seminar, would I attend? I'd at the very least stop in for a bit to chat...purhaps shoot some pics and do a write up for the magazine. Would I pay for the event? It all depends. Cost, available funds, and other issues. Would I participate as a paying member if time and money were available? Probably.


Concerning the MOTTs. IMAF-Schea:
I disagree with a few bits, but overall, I've had no problems with them. Their members who are on MT bring a welcome difference in perspective.

Concerning Jeff Delany, and his IMAF:
My opinion on JD is less favorable. This stems from his actions since GM Presas' death. He and his organization are still welcome here.

Concerning Bias, "Old Boy Clubs", etc:
-Everyone- is biased in some way.

Concerning
And if you are saying that only the Presas Kids can be the Philippines rep at a Modern Arnis event, you have most certainly insulted and ignored a large number of other people. Again your arrogance and biases are showing.
I did not say that. Do not put words into my mouth Jerm.

Concerning no gamemanship:
Right Lamont. There was none at all. You were setup by the evil Tim and his insane plot to rule the world. (/sarcasm) :rolleyes:


Jerome, You can misquote me, take things out of context, add in the leading questions, etc. The fact simply remains that you got caught playing games which tarnished an event that had great potential. Now, no matter how much you try, it will forever carry the black mark of "NorShadow".

I will agree with you in the end however.

Once again all of the trash talking that has been posted on mtc just reinforces my contention that Modern Arnis as we currently know it is destined to be a fractured system of small organizations fighting one another. Only people like yourself, Bobby, can really change that, if you have the strength and courage.

It is fractured. But out of the fractures will come unity and cooperation in time...as the wounds heal. As to me, I simply train, and will continue to bang sticks, roll, spar or learn with and from anyone who is willing to share with me. Purhaps Jerm, you and I should get on the mats together sometime. We both might learn a few things.

(And no, thats not a threat....just an invitation to share, somewhere down the road when all this BS is behind us all.)

[Cruentus]

Here we go again, half truths based on faulty information and speculation. I am so glad that you couched your remarks with the expression "…to the best of my knowledge…" because you are in error. Both Bram and Tom are long time friends and I was introduced to both of them through Professor Presas. We ARE NOT business associates!!!


You seem to be the only one spreading half truths here. If you support Dan, Tom, and Bram with seminars then your business associates. Bram especially. Here are some threads from the past in case you forgot:

In this one you also claim "I do give seminars on the gunting and other hand held tools for self defense..."
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7192&highlight=Gunting

As to you claiming that yout not a "distributor" for the gunting, this is also completely false. In this thread you clearly state, "If you wish to purchase a Spyderco Gunting Training Drone - the red handled version. send a check/ money order for $125 to the above address and make it payable to Dr. Jerome Barber." If the chacks are payable to you, then it is clear that your distributing the product, regardless of whether or not you recieved a cut of the profits. See this thread - http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3185&highlight=Gunting

As for Tom Boldern, it is clear that you've hosted him in the past, and that you support his events:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1766&highlight=Bolden

As for Dan Anderson, it may be a recent relationship, but you were able to set him up for a few seminars when he was in town. The business connection might not be as big here as it is with Bram Frank and Tom Bolden, but it is still there.

Point is, Bob's statement isn't false, but yours is. If your connected with someone and there is $$ involved, then it is business, regardless of how long you've known them or whether or not your friends with them. Lets call it like it is, shall we?

More to come....

Paul

[SRook]

Paul
As far as Dr. Barber being a Gunting distributor. He says he's not and I believe him.

"If you wish to purchase a Spyderco Gunting Training Drone - the red handled version. send a check/ money order for $125 to the above address and make it payable to Dr. Jerome Barber."

This quote is from a post he authored about a specific Gunting Seminar that he hosted in September 2002. He is offering the training drone, because it was essential for use in the Seminar. I attended the seminar and Bram was the only one selling Guntings. At no time did Dr. Barber offer to sell anyone a Gunting.
Scott Rook

[Cruentus]

Guro Kashino and Guro Martin, are long past being my students… they are "former students" and are referred to as "my training partners" since they opened their own training programs years ago. They have long ago ceased to be under my influence nor do they have to worry about what I think. Both Kashino and Martin, were presenters in their own right, representing themselves, not me or the IEAA at the Symposium.


Your playing semantics here. The point in fact is that you consider Kashino, Martin, and Curren (I might as well throw him in the mix) your associates. Kashino and Curren were your first out of the very few black belts you produced. Being that this is the case, Bob is correct and you seem to be misleading here. Your influence on these individuals is clear both in person and over the internet. You still consider them "your boys, and your students." You introduced them as such.

Now, I will say that since the symposium, Paul Martin has been seperating from your influence. He may or may not consider you much of an associate, but given that he is the contact for Bobby Taboada in your area, you surely consider him YOUR associate so you can maintain that connection.

Face it, you consider these individuals ON YOUR TEAM, except when there is a possible conflict and your called out on it. Ridicules! Just start calling things as they are and maybe people will begin to trust what you say.


With regard to Sifu Vargas, this was my first opportunity to work with him as a presenter at a program that I coordinated. I have witnessed his continued development as a student of PG Tom Bolden over a 6 – 7 year period and I believed that he ready to assume a prominent position as a lead teacher in the FMAs without regard to any particular system.


What's your point? The only point I can see is that Vargas is a student of Tom Bolden, a business associate of yours, and a person who you basically deem being of "grandmaster" status. There is still a major connection between you and Vargas in that regards. To deny this would be to lie.


I first met Sensei/Guro Muhammad in 2001 at the GOE2. I invited him to teach at the Eskrima-Kenpo Camp in 2002 in Buffalo.

Bingo...making you 2 business associates at one time at least. I will agree with you that the association between Dawud and yourself appears much looser then your association with the others mentioned. But that doesn't mean that you don't WANT him to be more of an associate, and your willing to do what it takes to make him as such.

It appears to me that your trying to build contacts to belong to "your camp," Dawud happends to be one of those contacts.


The "old boy" concept can be said for you, your friends and associates who have engaged in all of the "barber-bashing" even though most have never met me, trained with me, or attended the Symposium.

Wrong again. You could use the "old boy" concept in regards to me, maybe, because I have been a clear advocate for Tim and his Org. You can't say that for Bob. He has been very unbiased on this forum, despite the fact that he is a WMAA member. If he wasn't unbiased, then I wouldn't have been suspended for a week for my actions in a previous thread. Bob has clearly given everyone a chance to speak there mind here, just as long as people stay within the rules. This is evident in the fact that your able to post your opinions up here in this thread.

The "Good Ol' Boy" comment still stands when Bob used it, however. You are clearly biased towards your associates, as evident in your previous posts and actions. To deny this would be to lie.


In addition, you should ask your WMAA associates who attended to Symposium, if evaluations forms were handed out to each and every person on the floor after each presentation on Friday and Saturday. You were not there, so you would not know without asking. My review was based on the scores that the participants gave.

Sure, evaluation form were handed out; however, this still doesn't make for an unbiased review for a number of reasons.
For one, people went in to see the big names. I'll use my first session as an example because I was put next to Datu Dieter. Almost everyone did Dieters session because he is #1 a big named Datu, and #2 from Germany. So he would have recieved a ton of reviews, while I only would have recieved a few from those who attended my session. This leaves for an unbalanced review.

For two, many of the evaluators were clear supporters of one or two people over everyone else. Tom Boldens students would give him a better review over someone esle for instance. Bram's students would do the same for Bram. Heck, I might give a better review for Tim. I am not faulting anones students, but the point is, this is hardly "unbiased." Plus, if there are more people who support Tom Bolden over anyone else, guess who will get the best review? Tom Bolden of course. It would be the same if there were more of Tim Hartmans students present, or Dan Andersons students. Point is, again, this is unbiased. Now, when we look at the attendents, most of the attendents support people that YOU are associated with. Most did not support Tim Hartman or myself, for instance. So, the reviews, I'll bet, are going to be biased more so against Tim Hartman or myself. I don't care about myself because I am not a big name, but Tim Hartman is. It is unfair to have the reviews biased against him, particularly.

So, the reviews are biased, anyway you look at it, Jerome. To present them as anything but that is false.


In fact some of your readers have, in the past, prior to the Symposium, been very critical of people like Datu Kelly Worden, Dr. Randi Shea, The MoTTs, Jeff Delaney and Lisa McManus. Now you want to turn the world upside down and contend that your non-attendance was predicated on the fact that these people did not attend and present!?

The problem is that the critiques often come out when there is something to critique, but they have little to say when there is something good to present. Regardless of that, Bob himself has not been critical of any of these leaders. Bob has always expressed that he'd like to see all of these people, even if he has disagreements with them. So, his contention is correct. It is correct for a lot of people in fact. A lot of people did not show because certian people didn't attend to present.


BTW, if I were able to arrange for Datu Kelly to come to Buffalo for a seminar or weekend camp, could I count on you to attend? More importantly, would you be willing to pay up-front?


I think that your forgetting with much of your statements is the fact that people don't have endless amounts of $$ and time to be attending event after event. If you hosted Kelly Worden, I would attempt to attend. But if $$ and time isn't available, then no, I can't attend. This is the circumstance for everyone else.

Plus, due to your actions on the internet, and at the symposium MANY people are going to be weary of attending ANYTHING you host, regardless of the instructor.


Bobby, you are assuming that these people did not attend because of me! However, you are absolutely incorrect!

Not necissarily, Jerome. Some of the IMAF people as well as many others were very clear on the internet that they did not want to attend a "put up or shut up" event, which was exactly how you positioned the symposium. This is your fault. So in reality there were many people who did not attend "because of you," even though many others had there own seperate reasons unreleated to you. Now, after many of the occurances that happened during and after the symposium, and are still occuring today, you can expect that many more people are not going to attend future events "because of you."

As to the "several other factors" involved; how many of them are going to truely tell you to your face that they aren't attending an event because of you?


That "replacement B team" as you have referred to them, has more skill, knowledge and background in Modern Arnis than
most of the people currently training within the art.


In addition, if you refer back to Datu Kelly's interview mentioned above, you should take note of the fact that PG Tom Bolden, PG Billy Brayant, PG Douglas Pierre and Datu Kelly were the FIRST Modern Arnis instructors to be recognized outside of the IMAF and Professor

Your first quote is not only debatable for many of the "modern arnis" players who taught at the event, but it is clearly not true for half the instructors who were teaching who DID NOT TEACH MODERN ARNIS.

And in terms of the 1 week camps, whether some attended these or not says very little about their credability in Modern Arnis. A person could have attended a 1 week camp and never attended another Modern Arnis event in his life. Does that make them more credable then someone who continuosly trained in seminar after seminar with professor, but never attended a 1 week camp? Absurd....attending or not attending a 1 week camp in the 80's doesn't make or break an instructors credability. Besides, most of the instructors at the symp. were not instructors who attended the 1 week camps in the 80's.

Furthermore, out of the instructors you mentioned who were recognized as the first to be given credit outside of the IMAF, only Tom Bolden was present.

The "B team" was much less experienced and credable in Modern Arnis then the "A team." Because of this, you shouldn't fault people for not attending, or pretend that the people who actually ended up teaching at the event exceeded those who canceled in skill level. Many of those who cancelled you have yet to see anyhow, so who are you to judge?


Well, well, well, here we go again, now it is about the "major" and minor organizations. The perception of the WMAA as a "major" organization is yours. It can certainly be shared by others, however that does not make it a fact and there are people who would disagree with you. Since I have never engaged in defining "major" and "minor" designations this point is moot for me.

First off, athough you would like to pretend that it's debatable that the WMAA is a major organization, there is no debate. Just look at the WMAA website. The WMAA, currently, has far more schools, camps, members, and events then any of the other organization. I am not trying to get into a contest on "who's better" here, but given this fact, this at least puts the WMAA in the category of "Major".

So if there are 'people' who would disagree about the WMAA being a major org., what planet are they from?

But, if defining major and minor is a moot point for you, then why'd you mention it?


How quickly you have sided with the IMAF and IMAF Inc., plus Datu Kelly Worden when it suits your purposes. "Big Fish"? I think not! I never wanted to be known as such in the Modern Arnis World.

Well...um...O.K.. It's clear that you want to be known and acknowledged for something, otherwise you wouldn't be on this site at all. You've been fighting for recognition for years, even when RP was alive. Now it appears that you are trying to be some kind of an illuminati of the Modern Arnis world; an emporer who pulls strings and crowns kings behind closed doors. So to say you don't have a motive to be known for SOMETHING is contrary to your actions. I think you'll be known for SOMETHING for sure, but I think you should be concerned at this point as to what that might be.


That 'failure notion' is yours. It was not shared by the people who attended and posted reviews on mtc and elsewhere.

Success is achieving a goal. If the Goal was to host the first symposium, and have instructors and students share on the floor in a positive way, then you succeeded.

But, this was not your expressed goal. Your expressed that this was the event of the century, and the biggest event in Modern Arnis history. You put very high expectations for the event, and those expectations failed. Both IMAF's, WMAA, WMAC, and DAV have hosted bigger and 'better' events in terms of instruction quality in this year alone.

This "failure" isn't percieved by just Bob. It is percieved by all, although some are far to nice to get on board and say so. I think you'll be hard pressed to find more then a small handful, if anyone outside yourself, to say that this was the "biggest and best" event of the year.


As for missing the Effington, IL. event, that was a very wise decision on my part in retrospect
I did notify the Effingham host, well before the event date and gave a brief reason for changing my plans.

I can understand you not wanting to attend the IL. event. But the statement that you notified the host in advance is false. People found out that you had billed yourself for 2 events, and you were contacted. This is hardly the same as you notifying the host in advance, and it is hardly courteous.


Ooh, BTW, I never said that the Symposium would be the Modern Arnis event of the century… I said it would be the event of the year – 2003 – and it was!

You may not have said event of the century specifically, but you certianly billed it as the event of the year. You also said that this event "made history" which leads people to believe in huge expectations.

The point is, it WASN"T the event of the year that you billed it as The WMAA, IMAF Inc., WMAC, and the DAV have all put on bigger events this year. If this was your goal, then you failed.


I did it! No one else can host the first one! And given all of the negative trash that has been generated through the posts on various threads, I doubt that anyone will try to bring all of you Modern Arnis people together again for a long, long time, if ever!


Yea...uh-hu. Keep telling yourself that. If you honestly believe what you just said, then I think you might be dilusional. You hosted the first Filipino Martial Arts gathering disguised as a Modern Arnis Symposium. Congratulations. My suggestion is, that who ever hosts the next one, make sure all the instructors on the bill are teaching Modern Arnis, THEN say YOUR hosting the 1st Modern Arnis Symposium....because you would be correct in saying that.

Plus, your sorely mistaken if you think that other orgs. and people out there aren't bringing "all of us Modern Arnis people" together as we speak. Heck, I just made history at my camp by bringing 2 of Professors Datu's, Hartman and Journales, together for the 1st time in Michigan. Other Orgs. are doing the same. I don't just see a day where Orgs. and independents accrossed the board will be doing more joint ventures, it is happening today. Your outcry, "I doubt that anyone will try to bring all of you Modern Arnis people together again for a long, long time, if ever! " only shows me the childish fustrations of a man who failed to meet his goals.



Once again all of the trash talking that has been posted on mtc just reinforces my contention that Modern Arnis as we currently know it is destined to be a fractured system of small organizations fighting one another.

No Jerome...you and your peeps are a small fracture in the Modern Arnis world, and you personally are the one currently causing all the problems. The Modern Arnis world is getting better every day. new alliances accrossed organizations and schools of thought are being made more now then ever before. And none of it is due to your symposium. You wanna know whats bad for the Modern Arnis world? Meglomaniacs who try to play puppet master behind the scenes, only causing rifts among factions. If you could stop doing that, then I think we could all be better off.

Hmmm?

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by SRook
Paul
As far as Dr. Barber being a Gunting distributor. He says he's not and I believe him.

"If you wish to purchase a Spyderco Gunting Training Drone - the red handled version. send a check/ money order for $125 to the above address and make it payable to Dr. Jerome Barber."

This quote is from a post he authored about a specific Gunting Seminar that he hosted in September 2002. He is offering the training drone, because it was essential for use in the Seminar. I attended the seminar and Bram was the only one selling Guntings. At no time did Dr. Barber offer to sell anyone a Gunting.
Scott Rook

Scott,

Let me clear the air on one thing here. I don't fault Bram Frank here for anything. I think it's great what he is doing and what he is teaching. I enjoyed his session at the symposium. I liked the gunting as well; I thought that it was a good tool, particularly for LEO who have the option to use non-lethal techniques. Also, I don't fault him for his business relationship with Dr. Barber at all, either. It gave him the oportunity to teach his Modern Arnis and his gunting up in Buffalo, and I think that this is a wonderful thing.

Heck, I almost went to that seminar myself, but I had another engagement. I am sure I missed a good one.

However, my point was what Bob said was true, what Jerome said was not. Jerome at various different times acted as distributor for the gunting. If he says at one time or another for people to make a check out to him if they wish to purchase the tool, then guess what? He is distributing that tool. This doesn't mean he profitted from it; for niether you nor I know those details. But the issue wasn't "did he profit" it was "did he distribute." The FACT is he did, and the proof is in the black and white.

Plus I also remember on a website for the training session in Buffalo hosted by Jerome, there were links to purchase the gunting and trainers. Once again, he is acting as a distributor. I don't care, but he is trying to say that he never was, which is a lie.

Why lie? I don't know. But...the facts are in spelled out in his posts.

Paul Janulis

[Emptyglass]

Originally posted by PAUL
Your playing semantics here. The point in fact is that you consider Kashino, Martin, and Curren (I might as well throw him in the mix) your associates. Kashino and Curren were your first out of the very few black belts you produced. Being that this is the case, Bob is correct and you seem to be misleading here. Your influence on these individuals is clear both in person and over the internet. You still consider them "your boys, and your students." You introduced them as such.



Janulis:

Let me make this clear to you: I am nobody's "boy". Dr. Barber is my friend, mentor and instructor. He and I have not had a lesson together in person in 8 years. Dr. Barber and I agree on a lot of (actually most ) things. We rarely disagree as we both share a common body of knowledge based on our experiences from training together in Modern Arnis from about 1989-1995.

Dr. Barber has never asked me to modify anything I have said online or off. His influence on my actions, words and thoughts in a controlling fashion is nil. There has NEVER been a circumstance where he has said: "Why don't you post this or post this and say you said it.

That being said, I am proud to be termed "one of Barber's guys" as I respect the man and what he has taught and continues to teach me. That being said, anyone who knows me (you and I have met once so don't assume that you do, please) knows I am more than just one of "Barber's guys".

Rich Curren

[Cruentus]

Fine, Curren.

All of what you said just further supports my points.

Thank you.

Paul Janulis

[Bob Hubbard]

I need to correct 1 point Paul made.


Regardless of that, Bob himself has not been critical of any of these leaders. Bob has always expressed that he'd like to see all of these people, even if he has disagreements with them.

I have in fact been critical of both Delaney and Worden. Regarding Mr. Worden, there were a few misunderstandings between us, and I was looking forward to speaking to him face to face to put that unpleasantness behind us. I still hope at some time in the future to do so.

My opinions of Delaney have not however changed at this time.

All that said, despite the few personal differences that transpired in the past, I do respect Kelly Worden as a competent martial artist, and would (time/money permitting) attend a seminar involving him.

[Dan Anderson]

FOOD FIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:redeme:

Wow! The beat goes on. Time for a little levity here, folks. Jerome and Tim have both set me up with seminars so there has been a business relationship with both fellows. They have been very kind to me in that respect.

As to neither Kelly, myself or Dieter claiming any of us are the top dogs in Modern Arnis, I DO have to state that I think I am the most wonderful fellow you could ever meet. I just am. Really. :D

What is very apparant is the WMAA's and Jerome Barber's continuing upset with each other and aside from all the opinions and whatnot that gets posted, that remains clear as a bell. :(

The Sympo is over. It is recorded. Those that were there, were there, and those who were not, were not. Things happened - people enjoyed it and some got upset. It's November 5th (just 13 shopping days left til the most holy of holy days, my birthday - don't delay. Shop now!).
:D

The Sympo is several months past. This is quite some time to keep holding on to an upset.

Philosophically yours,
Dan Anderson
Again, the most wonderful person you will ever meet in Modern Arnis in this new millenium

[Emptyglass]

Originally posted by PAUL
Fine, Curren.

All of what you said just further supports my points.

Thank you.

Paul Janulis

And thank you for giving me the best laugh of the day. I just fell out of my chair!

Rich Curren

[loki09789]

Paul,

Again, my name has been brought up by you and used for some purpose - wrongly.

I have never 'separated' myself from Jerome, and I have no intention of doing so. Do you spend time with Tim because you are so different you can't stand each other? NO! You have built a relationship with Tim H based on mutually understanding. As my training has progressed, my relationship with Jerome has changed, as it should. But I see/talk to him regularly and he knows my respect and support for him. He has always encouraged me and others (you named them often enough, I assume you know who I mean) to always be independent, thinking and free to seek our own paths.

If my 'separation' perception on your part demonstrates how I can have my own voice, yet still be supported and welcome by Jerome, then I think your point is mute. I don't act as anyones mouth...except my own. I can only risk putting my feet in it, not anyone elses.

I say again what I have told Tim H, Jerome and said publicly on this and other forums: I am my own person with my own opinions. I don't cow tow to any person. Jerome knows where I stand on this and other issues. That is between him and me.

I have posted my opinions and information with the PURPOSE OF POSTING MY OPINION AND INFORMATION, not to represent anyone other than myself or to further some shadow conspiracy.

Now, if there is a problem between Jerome and Tim H, or anyone else, what place is it of yours to step into the fight? If you feel some obligation to make statements on someone elses behalf, does that really demonstrate respect for Tim's or anyone elses strength to stand on his own. Tim H is the head of his own organization and is adult enough to make his own points, I have read them so I know he is paying attention.

If you go back and read my posts, and only my posts, instead of reading INTO my posts when you lump them together with my fellow black belts/Jerome's posts you may recognize a topic driven theme. Read into it what you want, that I can't control.


Paul Martin

[loki09789]

I mean: "Your point it moot..." not mute (your far from silent)

Paul Martin

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
I need to correct 1 point Paul made.


I read my statement later and I realized that I made a mistake. So I stand corrected. :asian:

However, it is worth being said that your opinions are your own; your not some sort of WMAA puppet, as Jerome seems to imply. Also, your opinions haven't effected your ability to manage this website; people can say what they want, just as long as it is within the rules. If someone breaks the rules, it doesn't matter whether they represent WMAA or not, they are repremanded. Also, you disagreements don't effect your ability to train with others, either.

Those are the main points regarding the issue that are worth mentioning.

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Originally posted by loki09789
I say again what I have told Tim H, Jerome and said publicly on this and other forums: I am my own person with my own opinions. I don't cow tow to any person. Jerome knows where I stand on this and other issues. That is between him and me.


Way too many Pauls here.

Paul M. and I have had some very good discusions on the phone. I have NO problems with him at the moment. The problem between Jerome and myself doesn't involve him.
:asian:

[Cruentus]

Curren and Martin: Yea, fine, I get it. You both support Jerome. Once again, proving my points. Moving forward....

Dan Anderson: Cool, man. No one has problem with Tim, Jerome, or anyone else setting you up with seminars. This is fine; you put on a good karate seminar and I think that's great. However, when someone sets you up with a seminar whether it be Tim, Jerome, jaye Spiro here in MI., or whomever, this creates a business relationship, regardless of who's benefiting. With a business relationship there are issues such as reciprocity, and a certain pleseantry that must be kept between parties. This COULD cause you to stay out of the issue, or to at least approach the issue in a manner to keep both ends open for business. I am not saying it does, or making a judgement call here; I am just stating the facts.

Now remember, there is nothing wrong with any of this. Tim and I have both a friendship and a business relationship given that I have hosted seminars for him and the org. The problem I had wasn't with the relationship, it was with Jerome claiming that there was NO business relationship between you, Bram, Bolden, or other parties, when this is a lie.

Also...Paul Martin and Tim Hartman: I understand that you 2 had a good conversation, and that Paul M., you'd like to stay out of the 'fued'. That's cool; no problems with that. But please understand, both of you, that I am not dragging the Paul Martin name through the mud. Your name (Paul Martin) was brought up first by Jerome and Bob in the beginning of this thread.

Martin: You want to say your not distancing yourself from Jerome now...fine. Say what you want. The fact is, you ran over to talk to Tim when a lot of stuff came out to let him know where you stand. You were adament about not being lumped into Jeromes opinions after my post regarding the Balinawak/Modern Arnis thread. I viewed your attempt to stay neutral as distancing yourself from Jeromes side of the issue a bit. Now your back to saying you support him, but with your own opinions of course.

It seems to me that you can't make up your mind, though that may not be the case. So, here, let me help: You and Jerome have a relationship and are friends, but you want to stay out of the Tim and Jerome issue, and you want to be viewed as an individual, not one of "Jeromes guys".

Is that accurate? I apparently have been mistaken as to where you stand in the past, so was my above clarification correct this time? If I am wrong again, please correct me.


Now, if there is a problem between Jerome and Tim H, or anyone else, what place is it of yours to step into the fight? If you feel some obligation to make statements on someone elses behalf, does that really demonstrate respect for Tim's or anyone elses strength to stand on his own.

Time to clarify. Jerome and Tim's problem is not my problem. The fact that he has tryed to take down, in the political sense, my previous instructor, Remy Presas, and now he is trying to take down my friend, Tim Hartman (and has been trying too for years now) IS my problem. It's malicious, and it needs to stop. The fact that Jerome has been trying to take out and discredit an organization that I am a part of, the WMAA, IS ALSO my problem. The fact that all this crap that has been going on, which I DO blame Jerome Barber for, has been effecting our art, Modern Arnis, negatively IS MY PROBLEM ALSO!!!

I HAVE SOME MAJOR FRIGGIN PROBLEMS HERE!! AND YES THEY DO INVOLVE ME! JEROME AND I WERE FINE PRIOR TO THE SYMPOSIUM, BUT NOW I HAVE BEEN SET OFF! NOT A GOOD IDEA...I'VE BEEN TOLD BY EXPERTS THAT I AM NOT SANE!!!!!!!

and I will not stop until the issue is resolved. I will not stop until the issue is resoved.

But, and I'll say this to Rich Curren and Paul Martin specifically, I am not specifically angry at you unless you want me to be. :D

I hope we are all at a better level of understanding now.

Thank you,

Paul Janulis

[Tgace]

Just wondering...what is it going to take to resolve this issue? Public flogging, exile, cutting of elbow tendons so the practice of MA becomes impossible????? Theres a lot of "this issue must be resolved" talk going on here with no solutions offered.

Come on lay it out.

[Bob Hubbard]

I was going to say 'being whipped naked through the streets'...then I realized that neither Dr. B, nor myself have bodies that the ladies would cheer for, plus, its getting a bit chilly out there...hate to catch a cold while being publically flogged, ya'know? :)

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by PAUL

Dan Anderson: Cool, man. No one has problem with Tim, Jerome, or anyone else setting you up with seminars. This is fine; you put on a good karate seminar and I think that's great. However, when someone sets you up with a seminar whether it be Tim, Jerome, Jaye Spiro here in MI., or whomever, this creates a business relationship, regardless of who's benefiting. With a business relationship there are issues such as reciprocity, and a certain pleasantry that must be kept between parties. This COULD cause you to stay out of the issue, or to at least approach the issue in a manner to keep both ends open for business. I am not saying it does, or making a judgement call here; I am just stating the facts.

Thank you,

Paul Janulis

Paul,

As I have told you, Jerome, Tim and anyone else who listens, I base my personal relationships on what happens between myself and the other party. It has nothing to do with business. One of my closest friends in the Modern Arnis world, Bram Frank, hasn't done a whole lot of business for me at all. So what COULD be isn't necessarily so. Business wise, you haven't done much for me either (you really should remedy that, you know;) ) and yet we get along quite fine.

I stayed out of this particular issue because I think BOTH SIDES really made a cat's breakfast out of the whole thing. I thought the emphasis on it was stupid and told both sides.

Oh yeah, my Modern Arnis seminars are good, too.


Just wondering...what is it going to take to resolve this issue? Public flogging, exile, cutting of elbow tendons so the practice of MA becomes impossible????? Theres a lot of "this issue must be resolved" talk going on here with no solutions offered.

Come on lay it out.

Or simply lay it down and let it die.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Originally posted by DoctorB
I also attended his WMAA Camps in West Seneca in 2002 and 2003.

I'm glad that you brought this up. You still haven't paid for the 2003 camp yet. As a reminder, it was our invoice #19, dated May 6, 2003 for $80.00. I hope you pay soon or I'll be forced to send it to collections.

Your check or money order should be made payable to:

Horizon Martial Arts
PO Box 5
West Seneca, NY 14224

Datu Tim Hartman
:asian:

[Tgace]

"Or simply lay it down and let it die."

Yes that would be the "high road" would'nt it?:asian:

But sadly I think that deep down we "love" this kinda stuff. Enemy's, fueds, high-drama, etc. sometimes I feel ashamed with the eagerness that I have to see the latest posted here. Its like driving past a car wreck....

[loki09789]

Janulis,

" It seems to me that you can't make up your mind, though that may not be the case. So, here, let me help: You and Jerome have a relationship and are friends, but you want to stay out of the Tim and Jerome issue, and you want to be viewed as an individual, not one of "Jeromes guys"."

No it is not the case, I am not a "Jerome guy" in the way that you are implying, as if we are all in concert to 'bring down the WMAA'.

Yes I support my instructor/friend and mentor. I support him for the reasons I listed in the previous thread. That does not make me a member of a flaming. So I wont go into repeating myself for someone who only wants to see what they want to see.

As far as me running over to Tim H after some of your postings to establish a neutral tone, wrong. My conversation with Tim is between Tim and I and the how and when of it is between us. Again, you have gone off half cocked.

Your sarcastic, tv lawyer technique of discussion where you 'aren't saying' something while you are saying something is tiring. Just say what you mean and don't be coy. If you have a personal problem with Jerome or anyone here, just say so with out all the attempted wit.

As far as having a problem with you, am I suppose to be inferring a threat to my personal safety here? Or a challenge? Was the capitilzation, which is internet code for shouting, suppose to an attempt to be intimidating?

Paul Martin

[arnisador]

First, Dr. Barber took on a thankless task with the Symposium, and no thanks is exactly what he is getting. Dr. Barber, thanks for trying to make this event work. I am certain it was a great deal of effort for little financial reward.

That having been said, I do want to say a few things. Let me be perfectly clear: I'm speaking for myself, not for MartialTalk and not for the WMAA.


Originally posted by DoctorB
The following are statements made by Bob Hubbard, which I find to be in error and in need of correction

There is a certain conceit in feeling that each misstatement must be corrected. Some of your corrections are surely important, but others are not. The derisive "Bobby" does not strengthen your points, though with all the hits you have been taking recently I cannot blame you for this indulgence.


We ARE NOT business associates!!!

I am not and never have been a distributor of the "Gunting" for Bram or Spyderco!

We seem to have issues of definition here. Hosting someone for a seminar means a business relationship but I would not necessarily describe it as being business associates--it depends. It sounds as though the Gunting was merely a matter of taking orders as part of hosting an event, which I would not consider being a distributor. Still, I believe that Dr. Barber must admit that in loudly trumpeting the benefits of the Gunting--and he made me a believer when he demonstrated it for me at the recent WMAA Camp--and his association with Bram Frank, he may have left that impression. I don't think it was an unreasonable conclusion for people to reach even if it was an inaccurate one, and it would have been rather more polite to say "I can see where you might think that given how frequently and positively I speak of it, but..." instead. After the many announcements and reviews of it you posted here, I certainly assumed you were part of Mr. Frank's network in some formal way.



I also attended his WMAA Camps in West Seneca in 2002 and 2003.
[...]
On the other hand I have attended two (2) WMMA Camps

Surely this is an exaggeration--I would say that you visited each. I don't recall you spending much time there in 2002 and don't believe you took the floor to work out; if memory serves, you spent parts of Sat. morning and afternoon at the Camp in 2003, including lunch, plus some time on the mat, and some time chatting with Dr. Gyi and others (myself included). Were you a registered attendee for both camps? Am I misremembering?


the World Martial Arts Hall of Fame

I don't see you listed at their site (http://wmahf.semkhor.com/static/wmahf_main.html). (I checked some of the other URLs that Yahoo! found for this. I don't know which one is most current, but one went as far as 2001.) But then, as it says on the site: Because of our vast list of inductees, it is not uncommon to misspell or unknowingly leave a name out, and for this we sincerely apologize. To spell it out a bit more plainly, to be nominated is to be accepted. There are many fine martial artists recognized by this organization, but induction into this hall of fame is no accomplishment. I've said this just this plainly to some of their inductees before. Using this as a significant credential is enough to declare someone suspect in my eyes. It's one thing to list it buried in one's resume, another to use it to win arguments. I deduct points for that.


Well, well, well, here we go again, now it is about the "major" and minor organizations. The perception of the WMAA as a "major" organization is yours. It can certainly be shared by others, however that does not make it a fact and there are people who would disagree with you.

I must concur with PAUL--who are these people, and what yardsticks are they using? Lobachevskian? Objectively--by any reasonable standards--the WMAA (with which I am associated, for those who may not know) is headed by one of the six datus, has the plurality of North American clubs and events, has a European presence (as well as other countries), and is growing at an impressive rate. I can't see how someone could rate the WMAA as anything other than a major player.


I was available and I spoke with most of the people at the event, so if someone failed to open a discussion with me, they should stand up and accept the responsibility for their own mistake.

Dr. Barber has always been most willing to engage people in conversation at camps and seminars, in my experience.



That bias is showing through again, Bobby.

That may be true, but you consistently reduce Mr. Hubbard's motivations and views to fit what seems to be your one-dimensional view of him. Are any of us truly as simple as you paint Mr. Hubbard to be?


I have no opinion on your relationship with Mr. Kashino et al. I am put off by the deceptiveness of the "Norshadow" account, starting on Eskrima Digest and continuing here.

Was this a Modern Arnis event? I wasn't there. There are a few reasons for this, but this set of issues is one of the biggest:


Originally posted by Renegade
2. A fare amount of the instructors didn’t show. I have had personal contact with several of the instructors and I know of at least one of the instructors gave Jerome advance notice that they would not be attending the event, yet there was no information related to the potential clients. This could be considered false advertising.

3. There were 5 substitute instructors put in at the last minute. The people that filled in were not advertised on the bill. There wasn’t a need to ad anyone. Each of the instructors could have been given longer sessions. The participants were not given substitute instructors of the same caliber of the originally advertised instructors.

4. With the given schedule there was no way to see all of the instructors. There was no reason to have three sessions ruling simultaneously. Each instructor could have taught one session for everyone at the same time. With the time that was available and the amount of participants there was no reason to split the sessions.


Not only did many instructors bail, including those I most wanted to see, but not all of these cancellations were announced in a timely and forthright manner, it seems. As I had predicted--though not in public--the melt continued until very near to the event. The replacement instructors were of less interest to me (and recall that attending this event would have meant a 10-hour drive, each way, or a plane flight for me.) I have no doubt that they were all very high quality, but they were of less interest to me personally. There were other reasons I did not attend, but this was a big factor.

Was this a Modern Arnis event? I didn't attend and I haven't seen the DVDs, so I can only go by the instructor list and the descriptions of what was taught that have been posted here. In my opinion, a FMA fest in honour of Remy Presas' contributions to the FMA in America is a better description of what actually happened, even if that is not what was planned.

Dr. Barber, you stepped into the line of fire by hosting this event and now you are indeed taking fire, and for that you have my sympathy. However, there is also an extent to which you have made your own bed and must lie in it. Aspects of your conduct and hence your character have been called into question by your actions--and that's fair.

Is it worth continually rehashing this matter? No. We should move on. But as Tgace suggests, what we're doing is "only human nature after all," for better or, more likely, for worse.

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Originally posted by arnisador
Is it worth continually rehashing this matter? No. We should move on. But as Tgace suggests, what we're doing is "only human nature after all," for better or, more likely, for worse.

Okay, let's move on. Though I still want my $80!

[Rich Parsons]

Mr Barber,

I take exception with your comments here.


Originally Posted by doctorb
As for what I said at the Symposium and/or in my posts to this or any other forum, I will stand behind my words. There was no gamesmanship or one-up-manship at the Symposium. I said what I meant! If someone did not like it or disagreed with it, then they should have had the strength of their convictions to talk with me at the Symposium. That did not happen!!! I was available and I spoke with most of the people at the event, so if someone failed to open a discussion with me, they should stand up and accept the responsibility for their own mistake.


This may be true.

The next time you stage a demonstration, and try to play conductor I will interrrupt you and tell you are being silly and making a fool of yourself.

The next time you make racial and anti-semitic jokes on or off a college campus, I will interrupt you and tell you I disagree.

The next time I want to talk to you and you are getting visible upset and starring at a single person and mumbling that it was all their fault and that they had no right. I will stop you and tell you what I am really thinking.

So, yes it is all my fault that I did not stop you each and every time, and correct you or argue you with you in public about this and every litttle comment be it racial or insulting. Even when we spoke in semi-private, it was still touch and go, since all the other stuff going on was mostly the topic. Do, I need to give a play by play to everyone of what I saw of each person's reaction during their involvement?

So, yes it was my fault to try and behave in a public forum in person and not tell you face to face. Yes, it was my fault that I got upset, when anyone posted about the success and your great efforts to accomplish this thankless task.

Yet, I take exception to you implied comments.

I have not said all that I could say. I ask that we all just drop this now. For, I would not like to have to spend hours typing a blow by blow of the events, and what happened. It does not paint a positive picture.

So let us just say, AN Event occured. There were people there who taught Modern Arnis and other arts.

Some things happened that not everyone was happy with. Some public and some private. Life goes on. You see I cannot paint a rose colored review of this event. I had remained silent except when I felt I had to make a point or comment. And when I tried to be as polite as possible I was told I was not being positive enough and could I not just let it go.

So... ?????

What will it be? Do we declare war, and start calling each other names again, make claims about the other side, or those involved. I think enough negative has been said.

Just My opinion

[Rich Parsons]

To Martial Talk Members,

I, as A Member and also a Moderator, apologize to the Members of Martial Talk, I have tried to give great freedoms here to allow people to try to resolve these issues. This constant sniping is not positive nor is it Friendly Discussion, which is the intent of Martial Talk.


I am offically asking everyone to stop pushing the hot buttons, of people they know. Whether it be friend or foe.

This is not a warning, this is not a threat.

It is a request. Please.

With Respect to our Members
:asian:

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by loki09789
Janulis,

" It seems to me that you can't make up your mind, though that may not be the case. So, here, let me help: You and Jerome have a relationship and are friends, but you want to stay out of the Tim and Jerome issue, and you want to be viewed as an individual, not one of "Jeromes guys"."

No it is not the case, I am not a "Jerome guy" in the way that you are implying, as if we are all in concert to 'bring down the WMAA'.

Yes I support my instructor/friend and mentor. I support him for the reasons I listed in the previous thread. That does not make me a member of a flaming. So I wont go into repeating myself for someone who only wants to see what they want to see.

O.K. Martin, how about READING what I said carefully? I'll quote myself, "You and Jerome have a relationship and are friends, but you want to stay out of the Tim and Jerome issue, and you want to be viewed as an individual, NOT as one of "Jeromes guys."

Is what I said correct, or not? I am not trying 'see only what I want to see,' I am just trying to make sure I understand where you stand. So far, you have told me that I am wrong, but you have not been very clear on explaining where you stand. So, if I am not correct, then tell me how?



As far as me running over to Tim H after some of your postings to establish a neutral tone, wrong. My conversation with Tim is between Tim and I and the how and when of it is between us. Again, you have gone off half cocked.

Oh yea... I'm wrong, but you can't tell me how I am wrong because that's between you and Tim. Why all the cloak and dagger B.S.? Just say what you mean. Are you saying you DON'T want to remain nuetral, now?



Your sarcastic, tv lawyer technique of discussion where you 'aren't saying' something while you are saying something is tiring. Just say what you mean and don't be coy. If you have a personal problem with Jerome or anyone here, just say so with out all the attempted wit. [QUOTE]

My god...have you been listening? Do you READ? Of course I have a personal problem with the way Jerome has been conducting himself. Duh..

When have I not said what I ment? That makes no sense. Your the one who continues to tell me that I am wrong about certain issues, and that I am incorrect on my assesment of where you stand, yet you have yet to clearly explain any of it. YOUR the one not saying what you mean. All you have said to me so far is that I have incorrestly assessed your position on the matter, yet you refuse to tell me what your position is. I am still waiting for an explaination.

[QUOTE]
As far as having a problem with you, am I suppose to be inferring a threat to my personal safety here? Or a challenge? Was the capitilzation, which is internet code for shouting, suppose to an attempt to be intimidating?

Paul Martin

The internet code for shouting is BECAUSE YOU AND CERTAIN OTHERS TEND TO NOT READ WHAT I SAY ACCURATELY. I DON'T KNOW IF IT IS A LITERACY PROBLEM, OR IF YOU SIMPLY JUST DON'T READ ENTIRE POSTS. I FIGURED IF I 'SHOUT,' THEN MAYBE...JUST MAYBE....YOU'LL READ AND UNDERSTAND ME.

Understand?

And don't try to twist this into me posing a challenge or a threat, when you know that I have done nothing of the sort.

PAUL

P.S. Your TV Lawyer comment was cute, but inaccurate. I am being as straight forward as anyone can be here...perhaps this straightforwardness is just something your not used too.

[Cruentus]

First, Dr. Barber took on a thankless task with the Symposium, and no thanks is exactly what he is getting. Dr. Barber, thanks for trying to make this event work. I am certain it was a great deal of effort for little financial reward.

Arnisador, I would actually love to give Dr. Barber at least that much credit, but I don't think I can.

I called Erie Community College today and I talked to there athletics department. I asked how much it would cost to rent out a gym for the weekend. The answer was $125 per hour. Then I asked, "what if I knew someone who was on staff. Can staff members get a discount." They weren't at liberty to say exactly, because it depends on a lot of factors, but they did say that staff can sometimes get the room for half or more off. Then I asked if it would be less to rent out in the summer; they said yes.

My point is, given the amount of people who were there, profit for the event was probably between $4,000 and $6,000 dollars. The range exists only because I don't know exactly who preregistered and who didd't. The room probably only costed him $1000 or less for the weekend, which I can speculate based off my phone conversation with the department. That means abour 3,000-5,000 or so ended up in Jeromes pocket. There were no flyers or mailing for the event. NO INSTRUCTORS WERE PAID. I don't even think Bram or Dieter had their flights partially covered.

It would have been difficult to fully compensate all the instructors who were present, given the vast amount who were there. However, 3-5K isn't bad for a weekend.

So, given this evidence, I can't congratulate Dr. Barber for the thankless act of hosting the 1st symposium. Not only is 3-5 thousand $$ not thankless, in my opinion, but I think that more people would be greatful if things were handled differently.

PAUL

[Cruentus]

Paul,

As I have told you, Jerome, Tim and anyone else who listens, I base my personal relationships on what happens between myself and the other party. It has nothing to do with business. One of my closest friends in the Modern Arnis world, Bram Frank, hasn't done a whole lot of business for me at all. So what COULD be isn't necessarily so. Business wise, you haven't done much for me either (you really should remedy that, you know ) and yet we get along quite fine.

Fair enough. I still consider it a business relationship given that $$ is involved somewhere along the lines, but I will vouch from my personal knowledge of you that you don't base personal relationships off of business. So your point is well taken sir, and I understand!


:asian:

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by Tgace
Just wondering...what is it going to take to resolve this issue? Public flogging, exile, cutting of elbow tendons so the practice of MA becomes impossible????? Theres a lot of "this issue must be resolved" talk going on here with no solutions offered.

Come on lay it out.

This is a darned good question, Tgace! The answer is quite simple. I'll explain what I'd like to see, and then I'll explain a more likely solution.

1. What I'd like to see: Jerome Barber gets online and publically apoligizes for his antics, and explains the situation. Then he vows to work really hard to resolve the conflict between himself and Tim, and at the very least, keep the conflict off the internet. Anyone involved in helping him will also apoligize. The apoligies would of course have to be sincere, not back handed.

I would be skeptical, and it would take me some time to trust him and those who support him, but I would at least lay off, knowing that at least some honest attempts to resolve a conflict are being made.

I doubt this will ever happend. So...

2. At the very least, keep the conflict off the internet. I have a list of ways to do this that I will be posting in a seperate thread soon titled: Conflict resolution - resolving conflicts and keeping arguements off the internet. I will list 10 ways to keep arguements off the net.

But the solution is simple: if the conflict between Tim and Jerome stays between Tim and Jerome and off public internet forums, then guess what? I won't have anything to say about the issue.

But I am really tired of the backhanded, biased, and underminding comments that are made by both Jerome and his "camp". All the little slams on me, Tim, the WMAA, or any of its members need to stop. And guess what....? Like an annoying little shadow, every time I even THINK that Jerome is at it again, I'll be calling him and all parties involved out.

So, I'll say it again, because I can't say it enough. IF JEROME AND HIS SUPPORTERS KEEP THE PERSONAL CONFLICTS OFF THE INTERNET, THERE WON'T BE A PROBLEM.

So, Tgace, you win a free beer if we ever run into each other for the key question of the day! I hope I answered adequetly.

PAUL :cheers:

[loki09789]

Janulis,

I would send this to your private email, but you don't have one listed on your profile.

I am only going to comment on three points:

First, there was so much mixed in with before your final statement about my relationship with Jerome that, honestly, I read it incorrectly. Your understanding on this point is now accurate.

Secondly, there is no cloak and dagger in my keeping a conversation between Tim H and I confidential. If Tim H feels that he wants to discuss it with you, that is fine with me, I didn't say anything there I would not stand behind. Since it has nothing to do with you, I don't feel it necessary to publicise a private conversation. If that undermines my validity on this point with you, oh well.

Finally, I am not twisting your words. I am asking what your purpose and intent was with that closing. If I was to see a conversation between two people who have the communication history we seem to have finish with that kind of language, I would wonder what the speaker's intent was.

What ever response you want to give, please do so privately.

My email is loki09789@yahoo.com

This is NOT an attempt to get the last word in, it is an attempt to respond to Rich Parson, Dan Anderson and other member commentary that it is taking up too much time and space.

Realistically, 'resolution' is too high a hope. I think the letting it die goal is the best for now. I have agreed to disagree, respectfully with other people in the past, I am willing to do so now.

Ultimately, we are all taking money out of each other's pockets because of the impression this stuff leaves in the eyes of potential students who will come across this stuff in the process of internet searching for teachers... and will avoid people incapable of avoiding such bickering. Not to mention the number of current practitioners who may pause because they don't want to show up to events because of the overflow from this stuff.

We are teachers and leaders of martial arts. That embodies self control bearing, and confidence. Bobby Taboada said that he offered advice to many of RP's inheritors. Basically he said to be confident in the quality of your art and your teaching. This bickering, ON ALL SIDES, doesn't seem to fit this quietly strong and simple advice.

Paul Martin.

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
Hmm...Thats a lot to process there Jerm. I'll try and be brief though.

Concerning the Gunting:
I was under the impression that you were the distributor for it based on your enthusiiasm for it, and that several individuals had indicated that you were the contact person, not Bram. I will acept that I may have been misinformed. Who in the WNY area should one contact if one is interested in the Gunting and its related trainer?

Concerning MY attendance at your events:
I'll be perfectly honest here. Some of them I was interested in, some not. Cash being as tight as it has been, I am forced to pick and choose which events I attend. So, if I have to choose between events that are within my own organizations, and those outside, my cash goes initially to those within the group within the areas of interest to me.

Hmm...actually Jerm.... I did attend..or rather pop in n say hello to a few folks. at at least 2 of your events. 1 was at ECC North, the other was something with Dan Anderson at ECC South. No, I didn't pay, but I did stop by to show support. I think (though I may be wrong) I even posted a message concerning the ECC-N event. (I believe I met Guro Muhammad and his wife there.)

Concerning Why the interest in Kelly?
To settle a few past misunderstandings face to face. Now, if you brought him in for a seminar, would I attend? I'd at the very least stop in for a bit to chat...purhaps shoot some pics and do a write up for the magazine. Would I pay for the event? It all depends. Cost, available funds, and other issues. Would I participate as a paying member if time and money were available? Probably.

Concerning Bias, "Old Boy Clubs", etc:
-Everyone- is biased in some way.

Concerning
I did not say that. Do not put words into my mouth Jerm.

Concerning no gamemanship:
Right Lamont. There was none at all. You were setup by the evil Tim and his insane plot to rule the world. (/sarcasm) :rolleyes:

Jerome, You can misquote me, take things out of context, add in the leading questions, etc. The fact simply remains that you got caught playing games which tarnished an event that had great potential. Now, no matter how much you try, it will forever carry the black mark of "NorShadow".

I will agree with you in the end however.

It is fractured. But out of the fractures will come unity and cooperation in time...as the wounds heal. As to me, I simply train, and will continue to bang sticks, roll, spar or learn with and from anyone who is willing to share with me. Purhaps Jerm, you and I should get on the mats together sometime. We both might learn a few things.

(And no, thats not a threat....just an invitation to share, somewhere down the road when all this BS is behind us all.)

Ok, Bob, lets agree to disagree on some things. That is never a problem for me because sometimes disagreements reveal new information for consideration.

The WNY Gunting Distributor for Spyderco is Michael Carvelli. Email him at MMNCav2@aol.com.

Attendance at events is always a matter of interest and funding.

I have a real problem with the notion of dropping in to say hello as a signal of support. I strongly discourage that with my students. Go to the event or stay away is how my students are instructed. If I were able to bring Datu kelly or anyone else to town, dropping in would not help me to pay him would it?

If you wanted to make arrangements to meet with him or any other instructor whom I would bring to Buffalo, outside of the seminar site, before or after the event, I would be happy to assist in getting you and that person together - but not at the seminar/camp.

Actually, Bob, one of the two white boys writing as Lamont, says that I should say hello for him and he would love to have the opportunity to have a training exchange with you. There is quite a bit more to that computer ID but it bothers you guys more than it does me. Like the Symposium, I have moved beyond that, I have let it go; I am working on a new program for Sunday, April 4 2004.

Getting together on the mats would be fun. I do not harbor grudges over disagreements.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by PAUL
Arnisador, I would actually love to give Dr. Barber at least that much credit, but I don't think I can.

I called Erie Community College today and I talked to there athletics department. I asked how much it would cost to rent out a gym for the weekend. The answer was $125 per hour. Then I asked, "what if I knew someone who was on staff. Can staff members get a discount." They weren't at liberty to say exactly, because it depends on a lot of factors, but they did say that staff can sometimes get the room for half or more off. Then I asked if it would be less to rent out in the summer; they said yes.

My point is, given the amount of people who were there, profit for the event was probably between $4,000 and $6,000 dollars. The range exists only because I don't know exactly who preregistered and who didd't. The room probably only costed him $1000 or less for the weekend, which I can speculate based off my phone conversation with the department. That means abour 3,000-5,000 or so ended up in Jeromes pocket. There were no flyers or mailing for the event. NO INSTRUCTORS WERE PAID. I don't even think Bram or Dieter had their flights partially covered.

It would have been difficult to fully compensate all the instructors who were present, given the vast amount who were there. However, 3-5K isn't bad for a weekend.

So, given this evidence, I can't congratulate Dr. Barber for the thankless act of hosting the 1st symposium. Not only is 3-5 thousand $$ not thankless, in my opinion, but I think that more people would be greatful if things were handled differently.

PAUL

Paul,

You have asked a couple of good questions and got some good answers, however, you did not get ALL of the facts. My expenses were covered and there was not a profit. I did not get a "faculty/ staff discount" because the Symposium was not a "school function or program". During the academic year we can get the discount because there are martial arts classes running. There are no summer martial arts classes.

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by DoctorB

Actually, Bob, one of the two white boys writing as Lamont, says that I should say hello for him and he would love to have the opportunity to have a training exchange with you. There is quite a bit more to that computer ID but it bothers you guys more than it does me. Like the Symposium, I have moved beyond that, I have let it go; I am working on a new program for Sunday, April 4 2004.

Getting together on the mats would be fun. I do not harbor grudges over disagreements.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

Jerome,

I mentioned the suspension and banning of the Lamont Norshadow account to a few people who were involved with this issue. And with the exception of Richard Curren getting visible upset for being even remotely involved, which I excused, you were the only one who was upset. Tim K was not surprised and expected the closing of the account. The other White Boy as you say, did not even understand what I was saying. In my opinion from reading people all the time, and judging reactions, this person did not care and did not mind, and like I aid had no understanding oh accounts or closing them or banning them at all. His look was blank.

Now your look was upset. You were visible shaking with anger. You were talking about and to people who were across the room. While your were looking at him. The person in question, by the way, who could not hear you. I was actually afraid you might do something stupid at that moment. I have faced many a person whom for one reason or another was not right. Drugs, blood chemistry, grief, anger, etc, ... , and that is how I read you. I have been stabbed, beat, shot at, and attacked by multiple aggressors, dealt with bad guys and unknowns. I would stake my life on what I read on your face, in your body language that day and from your comments. I have done it before, and I am here today.

You say it is done. Then it is done. Do not bring it up. Do not mention it. Do not make a snide remark about you have moved on while implying others have not, and others involved wish to meet. The same person who wanted to demonstrate his Largo Mano on an individual. I took your comments about the person you were staring at not being on the floor to be the recipient of the Largo Mano, as you visible and audible proof that you wanted someone to get hurt or at least shown up. I for would do not like how you phrased this, given the data I have on this complete situation.

Do I Need to go into details of your glee, and smiling face while you were pointing out your two students, as the posters of Lamont Norshadow. Or of your enjoyment of the orchestration of the event and it unfolding while the audience watched? Do, I need to go into details about you being upset about Paul walking out to take the floor for the demonstration of Largo Mano?

Do, you want my review of the demonstration?


Or should we all just let it lie. Should we like Paul Martin and Tgace and myself and even Paul Janulis have mentioned at one time or another let it be dropped? It should be dropped.

Or are you going to try to get the last word. It is ok, if you play real nice. You see you have insulted many times about this board not given you a chance to present you points. Yet you try dictate policy to me on and off the board. You try to intimidate me and the members of this board. So, I take excpetion to anything might be implied.

Now as it is late, and I need sleep for work, and I am tired of this. I am going to sleep.

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by DoctorB
Paul,

You have asked a couple of good questions and got some good answers, however, you did not get ALL of the facts. My expenses were covered and there was not a profit. I did not get a "faculty/ staff discount" because the Symposium was not a "school function or program". During the academic year we can get the discount because there are martial arts classes running. There are no summer martial arts classes.

Jerome,

This maybe true.

Yet at the Univeristies I have attended and worked at. The faculty and the students can rent out the building at a much lower rate then the general public. I guess this is not one of your perks? Sorry to here that. I do hope your other benefits compensate for this.

I also know that much of the cost is due to the person(s) who run the building, security and workers who clean, etc, ..., . Yet, if you are a student or staff of the college/university, you get the discount in particular if there is another event causing the building to be open, such as a swim meet.

Now, do I have the right to ask to see your books? No I do not. Yet, I paid your price, and have the right to wonder where the money went.

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by DoctorB
Paul,

You have asked a couple of good questions and got some good answers, however, you did not get ALL of the facts. My expenses were covered and there was not a profit. I did not get a "faculty/ staff discount" because the Symposium was not a "school function or program". During the academic year we can get the discount because there are martial arts classes running. There are no summer martial arts classes.

O.K...

I'd like to be able to say, "O.K., man, no problem.." and drop it, but it still isn't seeming right to me. I would say at the very least, you had 20 paying customers at the event. This is an UNDERESTIMATION. I am going to quote them at the Earliest Registration rate, $195 a piece. This is an extreme underestimation because you and I both know that most did not register between February and April prior to the event to get that rate, and many paid the $295 at the door. Regardless,
195 X 20 = $3,900. IF you didn't get a discount for the room AT ALL, which I still can't understand given the many factors mentioned, then it would have costed you 8 hours on Saturday, and even though we were there for maybe 4-5 hours on Sunday, we'll just say 8 hours on Sunday to make up the difference for anything I might have missed.

Given these #'s, which are extreme estimations in your favor, 16 hours of time at $125 per hour is $2000.

So...at the most, the room cost $2,000. At the least, the event made $3,900. In the worst case scenario possible, you pocketed $1900.

Now, please understand that I am in business, and I don't fault anyone for making $$ (although, I would have thrown a few hundred to at least the bigger names who showed for the event, but that's just my generousity). I don't fault you for making a profit on an event. Hell, hosting an event is a lot of work and a lot of headaches; so you SHOULD make $$ doing it.

My problem, here, is that it appears that your not telling the truth.

Well, I don't know what else to say regarding the issue. I'll tell you what...I'll drop it if you will, and we can leave it at that.

PAUL

[Cruentus]

I know you asked me to respond privately, which I have a problem with. The only computer I use is my work one, where my e-mails can be used for business purposes only.

I only check my personal hotmail account once every week and a half or so, so I don't put it on display here like I used too.

So....I'll P.M. you here, if that will sufice!

:asian:

[Cruentus]

O.K....I have a question, that I think needs to be asked at this point.

Collectively, what can we all do to resolve this issue that we have been having, so we can all at least co-exist again without feuding. I would like to here your answer. What are your terms? What do you need me and others to do so we can stop the sniping and back and forth? Sure...you and Tim have a lot to work out, which may never be resolved through the internet or through any other means, but what measures could we take to at least keep the disagreements OFF the internet?

I'd like to hear your input.

:asian:

[arnisador]

Please, keep the discussion polite and respectful.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

[DoxN4cer]

Originally posted by PAUL
Let me make myself clear on one thing here. IF ANYONE of my friends gets physically hurt because of your screwing around, Dr. Barber, I will hunt you and all guilty parties involved down, and I will pummel you all until you are hospitalized. The only thing that would stop me from doing this would be legal action; not against me but against whomever is guilty of the assult.

Please understand that I am not going against the rules of Martial Talk here by making a threat or a challange; I am just telling you in advance what is going to happend. Remember, I am only a 6 hour drive away.



It sure looks an awful lot like a threat.

Why not just make the six hour drive and handle it on your own? Is that something you really want to do? Would you be satisfied then? Frankly, I don't think that you would do it.

Collectively, to close the issue; we should all shut the hell up and let Tim and Jerome handle their business on their own rather than continue the harrassment, finger pointing and name-calling that perpetuates the whole thing. By running off at the mouth you aren't pushng the issue into closure. You're drawing it out and making it bigger. The pot-stirring troll routine is getting old.

Let it go.

Tim Kashino

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Originally posted by DoxN4cer
By running off at the mouth you aren't pushng the issue into closure. You're drawing it out and making it bigger. The pot-stirring troll routine is getting old.

Let it go.

Tim Kashino

He isn't the only one doing this Tim!

Remember that Jerome started this thread. The ONLY things that I posted on this thread is that I have no problem with Paul Martin and that Jerome owes me $80 for the one day rate at camp....

He still hasn't paid me!:asian:

[Dan Anderson]

Hey All,
I just got off the phone with Paul and he's making a very good point which I agree with - it's time to take the personal stuff off the net forum...and yes, he means for him as well. This is as of 2:45 PST.

So, lets get onto something a little less confrontational like there's only 11 shopping days left til my birthday. Let's get hopping, folks. Spend like never before. :soapbox:

Yours,
Dan Anderson

PS - the history thread looks like it could yield some good data.
PPS - Hey - I just noticed I got promoted. Is this going to cause any controversy? :rofl:

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by DoxN4cer
It sure looks an awful lot like a threat.

Why not just make the six hour drive and handle it on your own? Is that something you really want to do? Would you be satisfied then? Frankly, I don't think that you would do it.

Threat? It was no more a threat then was Dr. Barbers invitation to Bob Hubbard. If my post was a threat, then Dr. Barbers post was a threat. I am not threatening, I am just being frank. If one of my friends gets hurt over some B.S., there is going to be hell to pay. Most likely charges will be pressed, and nothing will have to happened from my end. If someone is severely hurt or injured beyond what is acceptable for training, and charges aren't able to be pressed, I am voluntering to return the favor. To me, this is not a threat. If you said to me, "Paul, if you try to stab me with that knife, I am going to be forced to defend myself," would that be a threat? How about if you said, "Paul, if you stab my friend with a knife, you can expect retaliation," would that be a threat?
I don't take or intend it as such.

Now, do I want to go out and hurt someone? At times, when having to deal with certian people, yes. But would I be satisfied? Do I REALLY want to hurt someone? Of course not. You might know me enough to know that I would rather go on the floor and train in a friendly environment, then go out for beers later.

However, I wouldn't underestimate what I would or would not do. I'll fight anybody who wants to put the effort towards hurting me, a loved one, or one of my friends. I'm not into challanges over the net, because most of them are childish and empty. But I will say that I will fight ANYONE, regardless of experience or skill, if they are willing to put the effort towards trying to hurt me, a loved one, or a friend. If you don't believe me, then go ahead and put forth the effort to hurt me, or someone I care about. Then see what happends. I don't think that YOUR willing to test me on this.



Collectively, to close the issue; we should all shut the hell up and let Tim and Jerome handle their business on their own rather than continue the harrassment, finger pointing and name-calling that perpetuates the whole thing. By running off at the mouth you aren't pushng the issue into closure. You're drawing it out and making it bigger. The pot-stirring troll routine is getting old.

Let it go.

Tim Kashino

Unfortunatily Tim, letting it go hasn't seem to work. The only thing that will work, in my opinion, is to get an agreement on all sides to keep the "Tim and Jerome" feud off the internet. As I have said a million times, if you guys and Jerome would keep the negativity towards Tim, the WMAA, and its members off the internet, then I would have nothing to say regarding the issue.

So lets put effort on all sides to "let it go."

PAUL

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by Dan Anderson
Hey All,
I just got off the phone with Paul and he's making a very good point which I agree with - it's time to take the personal stuff off the net forum...and yes, he means for him as well. This is as of 2:45 PST.

So, lets get onto something a little less confrontational like there's only 11 shopping days left til my birthday. Let's get hopping, folks. Spend like never before. :soapbox:

Yours,
Dan Anderson

PS - the history thread looks like it could yield some good data.
PPS - Hey - I just noticed I got promoted. Is this going to cause any controversy? :rofl:

Just to reinerate, I do think the only solution is to come up with a collective agreement on all sides to keep the "Tim and Jerome" feud off the internet. I don't feel that this can be done by just simply everyone stops posting on the issue. We have to have a collective agreement through communication. I am waiting for Dr. B to post an answer on what he would like to see so we could be able to do this. We can all converse back and forth to come to an agreement; then once it is settled, it's settled. Then, so and so can hate so and so all they want, but at least the public sniping will come to an end.

I am sort of waiting for Dr. B's response here. I am confident that eventually we'll all be able to come to some sort of agreement!

PAUL

P.S. Hey....who signed off on that promotion, Dan A.!!! :rofl:

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Paul J.

That's enough now. If they what to continue to look like asses let them. If they continue I will put an end to it myself.

[dearnis.com]

Dan, you will be happy to know I just bought a new digital camera and am considering a new sword. Your birthday is timed well and I will make it an annual event; "Chad buys new toy(s) in honor of Dan's B-day."

:D

[arnisador]

Originally posted by DoctorB
I have a real problem with the notion of dropping in to say hello as a signal of support.

This comes as a surprise to me.


There is quite a bit more to that computer ID but it bothers you guys more than it does me.

Well, a trick plays differently for the tricker than for the tricked.

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by dearnis.com
Dan, you will be happy to know I just bought a new digital camera and am considering a new sword. Your birthday is timed well and I will make it an annual event; "Chad buys new toy(s) in honor of Dan's B-day."

:D
Chad,
Being an officer of the law and as one of your duties has to do with the filling out and writing of reports, I thought you'd have a better command of the English language than you do, You were supposed to buy ME a present, not yourself. I'd sure like a digital camera now that you mention it.

Yours,
Dan

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by Renegade
Paul J.

That's enough now. If they what to continue to look like asses let them. If they continue I will put an end to it myself.

How?

Curiously Yours,
Dan

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Originally posted by Dan Anderson
How?

Curiously Yours,
Dan

If I thought it was any of your business I'd tell you.

[DoxN4cer]

Originally posted by Renegade
He isn't the only one doing this Tim!

Remember that Jerome started this thread. The ONLY things that I posted on this thread is that I have no problem with Paul Martin and that Jerome owes me $80 for the one day rate at camp....

He still hasn't paid me!:asian:


You're right. How about all the "non-related" threads during his suspension that were turned into Barber-bashing parties? Did HE start that? Damn near every thread that I started or posted on has been twisted around into a terd tossing contest aimed at Dr. Barber. Who will be the first to grow up and stop perpetuating this nonsense? You? Jerome? Nope, and definately not Paul Janulis. He chronically perpetuates the poison. The inate desire to get one up on each other just won't die with you too, will it? To what end? What do you all want?

Seriously, you guys should just go out into the woods and knock the tar out of each other. At least then something would get accomplished.

I would prefer to be seen as an individual entity rather than simply "one of Jerome's Boys". I am nobody's lackey. I am my own man. If somebody can't fathom that, then they can take a number and stand in the long line of people that are waiting to kiss my back-side.

So he owes you $80. Perhaps you should only accept cash at the door in the future.

Tim Kashino

[DoxN4cer]

Originally posted by Renegade
If I thought it was any of your business I'd tell you.

That's how.

Ask a silly question...

[DoxN4cer]

Originally posted by PAUL
Unfortunatily Tim, letting it go hasn't seem to work. The only thing that will work, in my opinion, is to get an agreement on all sides to keep the "Tim and Jerome" feud off the internet. As I have said a million times, if you guys and Jerome would keep the negativity towards Tim, the WMAA, and its members off the internet, then I would have nothing to say regarding the issue.

So lets put effort on all sides to "let it go."

PAUL

"You guys?" Paul, you've been running amok with your comments toward Dr. Barber (before, during and after his suspension) and insinuations that "his boys" are trying to take cheap shots at you, Tim Hartman and the WMAA. If that were my motivation, I'm quite sure that I could find more creative and fruitful ways than getting into a urination conflict" on the internet. It could be surmised that YOU GUYS are keeping this alive by running a smear campaign against Dr. Barber and anyone else that has or had any connection to him.

Let me be the first to stand up to take the high ground and say that's enough. I'm done with this issue. Kindly leave me out of it. I have no personal issues with anyone here. I think that it is shallow, childish, unethical and disgraceful to the art and to the late Professor for the parties involved to continue with this stupid conflict.

Tim Kashino

[Tgace]

Look folks, not that I believe that things have gotten to this point YET, but if we keep going down this road remember...

New York State Penal Law
S 240.30 Aggravated harassment in the second degree.
A person is guilty of aggravated harassment in the second degree when, with intent to harass, annoy, threaten or alarm another person, he or she:
1. Either (a) communicates with a person, anonymously or otherwise, by telephone, or by telegraph, mail or any other form of written communication, in a manner likely to cause annoyance or alarm; or (b) causes a communication to be initiated by mechanical or electronic means or otherwise with a person, anonymously or otherwise, by telephone, or by telegraph, mail or any other form of written communication, in a manner likely to cause annoyance or alarm; or
2. Makes a telephone call, whether or not a conversation ensues, with no purpose of legitimate communication; or
3. Strikes, shoves, kicks, or otherwise subjects another person to physical contact, or attempts or threatens to do the same because of a belief or perception regarding such person`s race, color, national origin, ancestry, gender, religion, religious practice, age, disability or sexual orientation, regardless of whether the belief or perception is correct; or
4. Commits the crime of harassment in the first degree and has previously been convicted of the crime of harassment in the first degree as defined by section 240.25 of this article within the preceding ten years.
Aggravated harassment in the second degree is a class A misdemeanor.

Is any of this c$@p REALLY worth it?

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by Renegade
If I thought it was any of your business I'd tell you.


That's how.

Ask a silly question...

Well, that handles that question, doesn't it.

Still curiously yours,
Dan Anderson

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by Tgace
Look folks, not that I believe that things have gotten to this point YET, but if we keep going down this road remember...

Is any of this c$@p worth REALLY worth it?

Tgace,

Right after I read it, that is exactly what I called Paul about. I don't think it's going down that road either but at the same time you have to be careful what you say or write, especially in this litigious society.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

[DoxN4cer]

Originally posted by Dan Anderson
Well, that handles that question, doesn't it.

Still curiously yours,
Dan Anderson

"As it is written, so shall it be.
So Says The Renegade"

[Tgace]

Originally posted by Dan Anderson
Tgace,

Right after I read it, that is exactly what I called Paul about. I don't think it's going down that road either but at the same time you have to be careful what you say or write, especially in this litigious society.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

You aint just whistlin' dixie brother...and Im talking criminal charges here. Civil suits are a whole other kettle o' fish.:eek:

[arnisador]

I'm no lawyer, but both parties are dancing here so I would be surprised if anyone had any luck pressing criminal charges or suing for damages.

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Originally posted by Tgace
Look folks, not that I believe that things have gotten to this point YET, but if we keep going down this road remember...

[I]New York State Penal Law
S 240.30 Aggravated harassment in the second degree.
A person is guilty of aggravated harassment in the second degree when, with intent to harass, annoy, threaten or alarm another person, he or she:
1. Either (a) communicates with a person, anonymously or otherwise, by telephone, or by telegraph, mail or any other form of written communication, in a manner likely to cause annoyance or alarm; or (b) causes a communication to be initiated by mechanical or electronic means or otherwise with a person, anonymously or otherwise, by telephone, or by telegraph, mail or any other form of written communication, in a manner likely to cause annoyance or alarm; or


Too bad Joe Battler didn't read this.

[arnisador]

We've removed a post by PAUL from this thread.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Tgace
You aint just whistlin' dixie brother...and Im talking criminal charges here. Civil suits are a whole other kettle o' fish.:eek:

Tgace,

No disrespect, and I agree that it would be nice to have everyoen play nice. Yet as Arnisador, stated there were more than one who were involved with the dance. And given the previous data as I stated, it would be hard for a DA to take this case and make it stick. Many times they do not want to even deal with actual physical violence when it was/is mutual. ONly if one side was outnumbered by significant numbers, (* Significant being vague *) or by a large force of violence such as one using a weapon.

Now given that, there is always the assistant DA or DA that just might take a case and run wth it to make a point.


Does this excuse anyones comments or posts on or off of this thread? No it does not.

:asian:

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by DoxN4cer
You're right. How about all the "non-related" threads during his suspension that were turned into Barber-bashing parties? Did HE start that? Damn near every thread that I started or posted on has been twisted around into a terd tossing contest aimed at Dr. Barber. Who will be the first to grow up and stop perpetuating this nonsense? You? Jerome? Nope, and definately not Paul Janulis. He chronically perpetuates the poison. The inate desire to get one up on each other just won't die with you too, will it? To what end? What do you all want?


Tim,

You may have stated with your first post that you were no longer under or associated with Jerome. Yet given your name or tag here, and that Jerome introduced you as such at the symposium, I believe this caused many a raised eyebrow. You continue to state you wish to be separate. I can see your desire for such. It is just the that perceptions of the view that you constantly come to is defense, and also fan flames yourself, even if it is not meatn intentionally. So, it is perceived as Paul is to Tim H, then Tim K is to Jerome. I say this so you can try to change the perception for yourself. Nothing more, no hidden agendas.

As to the Jerome Bashing parties, you keep bring this up and this fan's the flame. In particular with me. I do not like what was done on and off of the floor of the meeting/gathering in Bufflao. I do not like the the way it was organized, or information announced before and during the event. And I also do not like what happened after. It was projected as a complete success and that no one came away unhappy and that all was well. I am here to tell you this is far from the truth. Yet, as many a person has mentioned it is four months, maybe we should let the past go? Yet, it is hard with these type of comments. You see, your comments implies that my opinion and data and facts were incorrect.

Are they incorrect Tim K?

Please tell me the whole experience was just a bad dream. I can wake up now. Please tell me this. I have tried to accept your apolgoes and statements on and off of this board, and to take you at face value. Yet the perception you are presenting here is that I was bashing Jerome for no good reason. You see, I have been and could be positive with this event as long as we discussed the instructors separately, or a person individually. When it comes the Managing and presentation and hosting of this event, I was aware of people who told me they had pulled out and woudl not be there. No comment from Jerome or anyone. I thought this was mis-representation or even fraud. Yet, how do I prove such a claim, on the internet or even in court. It would be difficult. You see I signed up, and paid, and did not get what I paid for. This gives me the 100% right to make a statment about quality of the event and the hosting, etc, ..., . So, it has been difficult to keep quiet and only release information as needed to make people think before they post anymore.

Tim K, Should I go write a complete point of view from me about this event, from before the after? Would that really help everyone get along? Woudl that make it better for everyone to know all the little details? And yes I have little secrets, and yes I want to keep them quiet. Yet, when someone calls me a liar, I feel I have to defend myself. Yes, Tim, you have called me a liar, or at elast that is the perception of what you have said. We can argue symantics if you wish. Yet in the end it all boils down to perceptions. On one hand I see you trying to be positive and trying to communicate and learn, yet on the other hand your insulting to me here and elsewhere, even though you stated you never meant it as such. Yet, it keeps coming up. I apologize for having thin skin as many people claim here. You can call me names, I have been called them all my life. Insert Racial or religious slur here!. Yes, pick the worst insult you can think of, including "White Boy" or even "Wasp" and I have been called it. I can live with that, I may not like it, yet I can live it.

It is the attacks to my character, that I take exception too. Both, you and Jerome have implied at one time or another I have not been honest. Yes this is true. I have hidden the data from the public. Should, I poke everyone in the eye with a complete detailed history of the event from my point of view? Would this solve anything? Would this help?

I think Not. You?


Originally posted by DoxN4cer
Seriously, you guys should just go out into the woods and knock the tar out of each other. At least then something would get accomplished.


Tim K, I agree, yet I do not think it will happen. Yet it would resolve a lot of the problems. Yet, violence does not always solve all problems.


Originally posted by DoxN4cer
I would prefer to be seen as an individual entity rather than simply "one of Jerome's Boys". I am nobody's lackey. I am my own man. If somebody can't fathom that, then they can take a number and stand in the long line of people that are waiting to kiss my back-side.

So he owes you $80. Perhaps you should only accept cash at the door in the future.

Tim Kashino

Once again Tim K, maybe if you were not the first to come to Jerome's counter points. Maybe if you would let Jerome come to his own replies before you, or let him handle it alone between the person he is having the problem with. This preception of your beign separate, yet always 110% supporting and coming to his aid, is what I am talking about. I am not telling you or asking you not to post, only think about it a lot first. Woudl this really help? Would this comment insult those not currently involved, or might it bring someone back who is quiet on this subject now? Like i said Tim K it may not be your intent, yet it is your impact.

(* This is not a quote, and is someone finds it great post it so I can get it exactly right, This is who I remember the media reports and write ups, both vocal and written. *)

The Supreme Court of the United States, ruled that in cases of Harassment, and in particular sexual, it is not the intent of the person making the comment of jesture, it is the impact of the person receiving the comment or jesture.

(* End of comment *)

Yes, you cannot protect yourself from every person out there, from taking offense. Yet, you can try not to push known hot buttons, intentionally or not.

Regards

[loki09789]

I love this! Now we want to debate the law! This is so much about ego that it is ridiculous. TgAce,(Tom) is a cop who deals with the pressing of charges and serving of warrants everyday. Can't anyone just say "your right" about something and leave it at that?

Ulitimately, the point is that any threats that are made can come back and bite people in the a&*. As American citizens we are subject to the laws of our states/fed governments. Armchair the law all you want, but warrants issued over thinner stuff that this, any LEO's can attest to that from experience and not conjecture. The words of the law are clear. You may 'win' in the end or it might be hard to make charges 'stick', but that doesn't mean that there won't be paper somewhere that could impact your life.

This is a publicly accessible forum. The statements here are reproducable. Yes, we could counter for counter in litigation and civil court. The point is that if you get charged with harrassment or anything else you will have to take time away from home, work... to deal with it in court, or at least the courthouse...

Is this worth it?

Paul Martin

[Bob Hubbard]

is this worth it?

Nope.

Me personally, I'm done with the whole thing. At some point in the future, once things have cooled down a bit and we can all take a step back, I'll most likely have a chat with Dr. Barber. Right now, everyones too tightly wound up, and there is the chance that tempers might flare up. Please note, I'm not directing that at Dr.B, but -ALL- of us. I've got enough LEO's in my family to have heard some interesting tales..especially on those quiet ones. Stuff happens.

I don't believe there is a threat to my safety in Dr. Barbers words. In any event, if harm were to fall on myself or mine, there would be legal, social, and economic fallout that I honestly don't believe that words on a forum warrent. I've been directly threatened publically in the past...this isn't perceived as a threat. I greatly appreciate Pauls support, however his choice of words left us no choice but to take action.

I look forward to getting together with as many folks as I can to bang sticks, roll, spar, etc. in a friendly manner. We can all learn from each other, I think. Most of this 'stick measuring' really serves little purpose other than to divide us...we are all students and we are all teachers.

Let us put this mess behind us, and move forward together, even if some of us must be apart to be together. :)


(Please note, I'm minimally on line at the moment due to moving and rewiring of my network, so my replies may take a while)

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by loki09789
I love this! Now we want to debate the law! This is so much about ego that it is ridiculous. TgAce,(Tom) is a cop who deals with the pressing of charges and serving of warrants everyday. Can't anyone just say "your right" about something and leave it at that?

Ulitimately, the point is that any threats that are made can come back and bite people in the a&*. As American citizens we are subject to the laws of our states/fed governments. Armchair the law all you want, but warrants issued over thinner stuff that this, any LEO's can attest to that from experience and not conjecture. The words of the law are clear. You may 'win' in the end or it might be hard to make charges 'stick', but that doesn't mean that there won't be paper somewhere that could impact your life.

This is a publicly accessible forum. The statements here are reproducable. Yes, we could counter for counter in litigation and civil court. The point is that if you get charged with harrassment or anything else you will have to take time away from home, work... to deal with it in court, or at least the courthouse...

Is this worth it?

Paul Martin


Paul M,

It is not worth it.

Yet, I am debating the law. I have been involved with being the subject of a Personal Protection order, the requesting of a personal Protection Order. The reciepient of a warrent for witness. I have been questioned all night long for being involved, numerous times. I have been involved with both criminal and cival suits. It costs lots of money. Is it worth it? No it is not. Yet, I have the priviledge as being a citizen to debate the law.

In Michigan, if I claim someone is agressive to me, then if you enter within one foot of my person then you have assaulted me. You have not battered me. You can also state that the one foot area around us both could be extended to the one foot area around the opponent, to get a two foot area. This is debateable by the lawyer and the judge. This is debateable also by the police officer at the site. Does he even wish to take the report.

Domestic violence goes both ways, yet there are officers out there that did not wish to right up the report, when my wife's boyfrined showed up to beat me up. I had called 911 ( I had called twice, they were not sending out anyone until after I called twice. And this was to tell me to stop bothering them, Was I supposed to handle it myself?). The female officer that showed up, assumed that I was the agressor. She pulled her gun and then cuffed me and shoved me in the back of her car. Talked to them, the wife and boyfriend, then as backup showed up she dragged me of out the car and un cuffed me and then put me back in, so that her supervisor could not see me in cuffs. When she frisked me, I took a ridge hand to each gonad as she checked for weapons. Yes the officer's safety is a concern. Yet, she never would let me speak. And I do not argue with a loaded gun being pointed at me. So, yes I debate the law. I debate her right to be able to pull her gun on me. Yet, all she had to say was she felt threatened by my size, and that domestics are dangerous. I had to take this one.

So, yes I exercise my right to know the law. I exercise my priviledge to debate the law. I do not argue with the officer since it is his call at the moment. I just do not speak without my lawyer if I feel like it is a raw deal. I have talked to DA's and judges, defending myself and also with lawyers present. I recommend getting legal advice when it is available or possible.

Yet, it does break down to does the police officer feel like doing the paperwork. Does he think his sergeant or shift supervisor will back him on this. It does depend on if the DA, wishes to press charges or are their more important cases to be handled.

And as being, a police officer, what does this mean? Should I refer all my legal questions to him? In Michigan there is a confusing law on knife blade size. How do you measure the blade length to make sure it is legal? Please How do I? In Arizona the size is different, how do I carry a blade from state to state that might be legal in one and not the other. No disrespect, to Tgace, yet does he know?

Did you know that if you see a 'M' in a license plate and all numbers, with the designation of Manufacturers Plate, that by agreement for the licensing of this vehicle a test must be in progress at the time of operating the vehicle? Did you know that every state recipicates this but Arizona? Did you know that you cannot cross the US Border with one of these cars, as it is not then insured in the other country, and is importing products.

So, Paul M, to answer your question, is it worth it? I would say no. Have I done and lived though it and cost me money and time yes? Will it happen again? I do not know it would all depend on the situation.

Yet, I will not just be intimidated, by the presense of a police officer, and the quoting of a law I have not read from an official website nor in the offical published statutes. I will take it under advisment, as I do all advise.

Should I go get some of my police friends to post here on counter points? And because they are an official officer they should be listened to above all others? That is like saying I train the Genesee County Sheriff's department, when one deputy is or was in one of my classes? I do not see the connection.

And yes, I am debating the issue. For you see I told Jerome I took offense to his post, given the data I have about this guy who wants to train with Bob. And now all those who know Jerome in a friendly manner come to his aid. The perception is still there that you one his loyal supporters.

So, Paul M. Tim K has called me a liar. Now you have called me an armchair lawyer, and also a liar. Well, you see this is how I perceive it.

Yet, once again, if everyone would just be quiet on both sides and or really really think about their posts before hitting submit, then maybe we could get by this.

Yet, I think it will take more then just this request. If I lock a thread another one starts up. If people play nice for a while then they slip in a little jab, then from there, the level of contact increases, back and forth.

Yes, Ultimately the threats made, including those by Jerome, that I and obviously Paul, even though he is suspended for his reply, thought it was a threat, should be addressed.

So, Paul M, as a friend of Jerome's what should I do about Jerome? Should I file a charge against him for his threat? Should I argue for him to suspend him for his threat? Should I argue for the removal his post?

As Jerome has tried to dictate policy to me on and off this baord previously. I am asking now for your opinion and the of Tgace as well, since he is a police officer and a legal officer of the court. Tell me should I now argue for Jerome to have the same punishment as Paul. Since his post started this discussion? Since his post was also construed to be a threat?

Or Should I go down to local police department and file a charge? Or do I contact the FBI since it crossed state lines?

I am serious here. How do I follow up here to get this resolved?

So, if I was to say you are right. And to say I am not allowed to debate the law, then please advise me, as to how I can proceed?
Please with you legal advise, and experience, please tell me how do I press charges against Jerome. How do I make it work?

You see Jerome used the Term "White Boy", In Michigan, when you take a simple assault which is a misdemeanor and add in any type of racial slur, then it becomes a felony.

Oh, yes I have taken offense to Jerome's usage of that phrase. Just as I took offense at the Symposium, when he made his racial and anti-semitic comments.

Will this end if I press the charges? Will it end then???


Please advise me in your legal advise.


I know I have asked a lot of questions and repeated some many times. Yet, I am not trying to be sarcastic, I am truly trying to understand.


Waiting for an honest reply and answer to my questions.



(*
I see that Bob, has made a post that will make some of my questions not applicable. Yet I would still like to hear about te other questions.

Thank You

*)

[Tgace]

Jeeeezz guys settle down. I SAID THAT I DONT THINK THINGS HAVENT GOTTEN TO THIS POINT YET. My point was that many of the people involved in this discussion know each other (and subject to the NYS penal law) and if they continue down this road things could get ugly over what ammounts to nothing.

Mr. Parsons, I have no problem debating the Law and have no illusion of superiority. What Paul said has a point. Sometimes its all about who gets to a police report first and warrants are issued. Yes it would probably all get tossed in court, but who has the time to waste over such pointless c$@p? Ive seen people locked up over less.

And Mr. Hubbard I agree totally....that was my whole point.

[Rocky]

Hey guys keep it coming this is awesome, and Remy always said I was a trouble maker.

Common Paul tell us what you reallly think, Jerome don't stop!! You got them right where you want them. Master Anderson boy you should really be upset after what I heard them all say about you!!! ( of course that might of been on the day I was trying to quite LSD):D Anyways I thought I heard something so quick go them!! Tim!!!! You madman you are forever getting into trouble.

Ya know their just might be something in the water in Buffalo.


Tim you need to get this stuff on a cable show, it'd be like Springer with sticks!!!! You e the host I'll be the lovable boucer that the woman all love.


Rocky

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Originally posted by DoctorB
I have a real problem with the notion of dropping in to say hello as a signal of support. I strongly discourage that with my students. Go to the event or stay away is how my students are instructed.




I've tried to keep quiet but this one I have a BIG problem with.

Jerome, this is the pot calling the kettle black. You have a long history of doing this and on several occasions you brought your students with you.

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Tgace

Mr. Parsons, I have no problem debating the Law and have no illusion of superiority. What Paul said has a point. Sometimes its all about who gets to a police report first and warrants are issued. Yes it would probably all get tossed in court, but who has the time to waste over such pointless c$@p? Ive seen people locked up over less.


Yes, I agree what Paul M said has a point.

I also agree that what I said has a point.

I will not just sit back and say nothing or be told to be quiet just because someone is a police officer.

Let me give a quick example.

I am an engineer. Therefore you cannot talk about the angles of attack, as you obviously do not understand them like I do, as I know angles like no one else since I use them every day in my work. Oh Wait Even I cannot talk about the angles, as I do not have an M.D. or D.O. to tell you the best place to put that angled attacked.

As to wasting time in court over crap, well I have done it before. Was it costly? Yes. Did I like it? No way. Yet I will not let the threat from someone stop me from posting my point of view, or the data as I see it or know it.

Yes, I have had polite discussion on and off this board through e-mail with Tgace, and I assumed he never really meant me any problems.

Yet, it is my point that it all depends upon who takes the report. It is not as cut and dry, from my experience, as people sometimes make it out to be.

Tgace no harm no foul :asian:

[Tgace]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons
As to wasting time in court over crap, well I have done it before. Was it costly? Yes. Did I like it? No way. Yet I will not let the threat from someone stop me from posting my point of view, or the data as I see it or know it.

My point wasnt to squash anybodys freedom of speech. My point was that this is a public forum and as things descend into threats and aggressive speech, trouble could come of it. By all means argue, debate and discuss...i enjoy reading it (thats why Im here) just remember where the line is.

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Tgace
My point wasnt to squash anybodys freedom of speech. My point was that this is a public forum and as things descend into threats and aggressive speech, trouble could come of it. By all means argue, debate and discuss...i enjoy reading it (thats why Im here) just remember where the line is.



As A Moderator of Martial Talk, it is my Responsibility to make sure that people feel like they can post without be squashed as you say. Thank you for your follow up.


Rich Parsons
MT Moderator
:asian:

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Tgace
By all means argue, debate and discuss...i enjoy reading it (thats why Im here) just remember where the line is.


I enjoy a good debate/discussion/arguement. Just so long as people keep it friendly, and play by the rules.

:asian:

[loki09789]

Rich,

I have no idea where all that came from but my point is this:

"Why can' people just say 'your right'"

...about this downhill spiral of communication and decency.

...about the fact that TGace said it hasn't gotten to the chargable level of BS yet

...about the fact that there are greater powers than forum rules that we have the responsibility to adhere to as citizens.

...about the fact that TGace made have a point, based on the personal experience that warrants and arrests have been made on seemingly stupid things - some of which he has had to deal with personally - not necessarily a superior position of experience or exclusive rights to that experience, just experience.

No where in that post did I/Me claim to have any legal expertise or did I say that Tom had exclusive rights to legal discussion on this forum.

Paul Martin

[Rocky]

Paul M. & Tgace are right in their post of what could happen if things get go to far on any public forum. As the Great Ray Terry, the grand poobah of the Eskrima Digest once told me everything written on these public forums can and most likely will be held against you in a court of law, should things ever get that far. i check this with my walking encyclopedia of Law Master Edwards and one of my attorneys and they both confirmed the poobahs warning.

Paul this is one reason why on the other post about the tactical stuff, I didn't write about many of the things , not nessecarily techniques but methods I use when teaching self defence. I will give you something to ponder, of course I will only give you the ansewer in person, for the above mentioned reasons. But most of the methods ( unarmed) that police officers use will get a person hurt or sued. And if you practice BJJ or Small Circle JJ , your odds may dramatically increase for being sued in a court of law, and again its not from technique!!!;)

Gotch ya think'n don't I!!!!

This is why I say Paul, a person should aways own a good lawyer, a judge if possible and aways no which cops (in your area if you own or do business in a certain area) are for sale! It works for the Kennedy's!!!! I didn't make these rules I just learned the game!! Doesn't make me a bad guy and it doesn't make all law enforcement people bad




Rocky

[loki09789]

Rocky,

ROCK! Under all that bluster there is wisdom and judgement:)

I understand about the silence. The Kenpo covered fist is to represent "I conceal my treasure", and if you answered you would be lifting your skirt awfully high from your stand point.

As far as enforcement officers, if you tell them that you want to press charges, they are obligated as public servants to do so. If they refuse, take it higher (shift supervisor, Police Chief/Commisioner...Councilman). It is a shame that you have found less than honorable public servants, but I truly believe that they are the minority of the population (Is someone going to accuse me of racism now?:)) of LEO.

Two general rules when it comes to self defense and reporting I have found useful:

1. Tell dispatchers/LEO what action you want to take ("I want to press charges")

2. Be the first one filing paper.

Other than that, on the tactical line, I just meant what kind of awareness training/tactical mindset training (color codes, reporting procedures...) do you bring out for your students, I didn't want to dive into your skeleton closet.:)

Paul Martin

[Rocky]

Not sure if I have the right person, but Bob I beleave the owner of this fine forum. ( by the way all kidding a side you have done a hell of a job) But!!!! the way the laws are now a days some dirt bag lawyer, (Like mine;) ) might want to see how deep your pockets are when Master Anderson losses his mind some day and flys out here to Michigan and kicks my ass, because I called him "OLD" one to many times:D . You see without this fine vessel of communications that potential situation might have never accurred! Oh and let me guess some lawyer told you to form a Corp., LLC, or S Corp. to protect yourself, right!!! Well guess again, it doesn't work on our scale, my pitt bull will chew that up for a snack.

Its ashame as martial artist you need to be aware of this crap, but you can give thanks to all those guys who became Lawyers not to do good but to stay out of Veitnam, thus creating a glut of Attorneys with little good work for them, so they learned to twist and turn the constitution, and various laws to get money from where ever and whomever thay can, and in the end we regular people pay the price.

Done preaching for now!

Rocky

[Rocky]

Hey everyone I got promoted!! Wow!!


Hey if I went to the TKD forum, I'd probably be black belt by now wouldn't I :rofl:


EWW, I can tell that ain't going to settle well with some folks:shrug:




Rocky

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by loki09789
Rich,

I have no idea where all that came from but my point is this:

"Why can' people just say 'your right'"

...about this downhill spiral of communication and decency.

...about the fact that TGace said it hasn't gotten to the chargable level of BS yet

...about the fact that there are greater powers than forum rules that we have the responsibility to adhere to as citizens.

...about the fact that TGace made have a point, based on the personal experience that warrants and arrests have been made on seemingly stupid things - some of which he has had to deal with personally - not necessarily a superior position of experience or exclusive rights to that experience, just experience.

No where in that post did I/Me claim to have any legal expertise or did I say that Tom had exclusive rights to legal discussion on this forum.

Paul Martin

Paul M,

I have conceeded that what you have said has a point.

Yet I never hear you saying what I say has a point???? Is this a one way street?

You came across in your post, upset and agnry at me for posting back to Tgace about the law he supposedly quoted. I say supposedly, since I do not ofr sure it si one. I will take it as it, yet I will not confirm it. You acted like I had no right to discuss this issue. Therefore I dropped it back in your lap?

So, Tell me Paul M, am I wrong that Jerome and others played a game at the symposium? Am I wrong that there is perceived to be two plus camps between Tim H and Jerome. Am I wrong, in saying that wish for this to end, yet you still seem to want the last word, and for everyone to admit you are right? You see your instructor taught me that one. I took it private, and he made it seem onths later like he was right since I did not reply publically. So, yes I keep it here, until everyone agrees tat we all have a side. Yet, I cannot get that out of you. You never say that anyone else is right, only you and your friends.

You post made it seem like I was a bad boy to argue with a police officer who knows the law. Sorry charlie, I know some of the law also. With the exception of the police and maybe a lawyer, I would bet I know more about the overall law then the average person here. I would also contend that I know more areas, as many people who work in the law field have specialties.

Yet, I mentioned that it depends on a lot of things? Was I wrong?

Oh I admitted that it could go to court. I admitted that it could. Paul M, did you know I could also infer from your post that you were threatening me with police action from your friend Tgace? Yet, you never seem to allow for the otherside to have any valid ponts no matter how small or large. So, I am sorry, you jsut want me to admit you are right.

Yes, you are right that it could go to court. I have said it before.

You are right their are laws that people have to answer too. Yet, if you and everyone else would actually follow the forum rules then the law would never have to be called into this.

I also took you follow up that MT and myself and others ahd be careful or you would send the law after me. I was just telling you, to bring it. I want to bring the law on certain parties as well. Would it look good for the publicity of a police officer to be accuse of intimiadation over the internet. Tgace as followed up, statng otherwise, yet the publicity in the media and in his station woudl not be good for his carear. How about you, if brought you up on charges of intimidation? Or talked to a college about a supposed event, that would not look good in the media either. People may or may not loose their jobs. they may or may not loose money going to court. What I was saying is that I do not believe I have the most to loose int this case. And yes, I have still not learned the lesson from Uncle Rock, that certain fights are not worth commiting suicide over. Yet, to make my point, and to have my day in court to get my say, and to see if an impartial person beleives that I might be right. I will take that chance. Yet, it could be avoided real easy if jsut once in a while you took your own advice.

I could ramble for ever on this. YOu get my point. Play nice, do not tell me how to act. Do not tell me how to reply. Do not tell me I do not have the Right to get my own lawyer and take it to court.

Oh yeah maybe once in a while acnowledge that I might have a point, yet you disagree with it. This goes a long way.

So, Paul M. Like I said, think before hitting submit. There already is anomosity between people, and the worse is assumed.


So, yes you are right that it could go to court.

Yet am I right that if everyone played by the forum rules and acknowledge the otther person's point of view the law would never have to be called into this? Am I?

Waiting to see what you have to say.

[Tgace]

MAN everybody chill! I post a section of the NYS penal law and look what happens (by the way it is a direct quote, you can find it at http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?cl=82 if you doubt me). If people feel "intimidated" by reading it that's their issue not mine as I wasnt pointing it at anybody in particular in the first place.

Here lets change the topic....heres another piece of NYS Law.

ARTICLE 35
Defense of justification
S 35.15 Justification; use of physical force in defense of a person.
1. A person may, subject to the provisions of subdivision two, use physical force upon another person when and to the extent he reasonably believes such to be necessary to defend himself or a third person from what he reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of unlawful physical force by such other person, unless:
(a) The latter`s conduct was provoked by the actor himself with intent to cause physical injury to another person; or
(b) The actor was the initial aggressor; except that in such case his use of physical force is nevertheless justifiable if he has withdrawn from the encounter and effectively communicated such withdrawal to such other person but the latter persists in continuing the incident by the use or threatened imminent use of unlawful physical force; or
(c) The physical force involved is the product of a combat by
agreement not specifically authorized by law.

I find sub (b) and (c) interesting. (b) says "you have no "right" to start a fight but if you do start the fight and at some point say "stop I give" and the other guy keeps on coming, you now have the "right" to use force to defend yourself".
(c) says "if you have a mutual fight youre bolth in trouble".

[loki09789]

It sounds a little like the old Japanese axium "Business is war"

Is it a shame that a martial artist has to think about such things, or is it that a martial artist can be more prepared for it if they can translate martial skills to another arena? Do you think that any of your martial arts developed thinking has helped your business sense? I think it would.

This idea of business and civil court and such is another reason that I see FMA as a conceptual/strategic art. Thinking conceptually/tactically/strategically in an effective way lets you recognize that the arena and the tools will change, but the goals and how you accomplish them may stay the same.

In my last post the idea of telling the dispatch what you want and reporting first is just another way of applying the aggressive countering style of FMA, instead of the reactive 'defensive' approach. You would probably have some good business stories that go along this line as well.

Paul Martin

[Bob Hubbard]

Folks,
There is alot thats been said that can be said to be implied...

There is the implication of police bullying, lawsuits, and physical threats to various persons. Some people read into comments farther than the original poster meant. Happens alot when you can't see or hear inflexions.

A few people mentioned that if I were to stop in to do some training with Dr. Barbers group that an 'accident' would happen. I have to believe that after several decades in the arts that Dr. B is above such 3rd grade mentality based actions, and that his people would have better control and skill.

Sometimes, blue is just blue.

There is also the explicit...the explicit threat of retaliation should certain individuals be harmed by other individuals. The explicit threat to end careers.

Sometimes, blue is ultra-midnight-cyan.

Seriously, where does it all end?

We can quote laws back and forth, but the reality is that its usually the person with the most $ that wins. Laws posted help us all to see how the legal system sees things, and are always of value.

People often lend an air of 'superiority' to the guys n gals who wear the badge. They forget they are just as human as the rest of us, subject to error just as we all are. I count many LEOs among my friends, advisiors and family.


This forum is not meant to be used for bullying, scheming, plotting, political stick waving and measuring, etc. Unfortunately, many individuals over the last few years have seen the need to do so. Most of them are long since departed. Read that as you may.

I read all this BS (for BS it is) and I wonder, all the keyboard warriors, waging wars of words, scheming their schemes, and such...do they have any time to train? Do they have anything of real substance to offer other than insinuation, veiled comments, and whispered threats int he dark?

Folks, I give you a spot...nothing more. You are the ones who choose to fill it as you will. I've always been told there was a rich history behind the art of Modern Arnis. I've heard many tales of Remy and many of the folks involved. I see very little of that history here. I see very little of the respect and maturity that I believe comes from a serious study of the arts.

Am I wrong? Is this all that is left of Remy Presas' legacy? A bunch of shallow individuals, electronically measuring their 'sticks' on an internet forum? Poor Remy...he wasted his life it seems.

Am I wrong? Purhaps I study the wrong art. I'm certain that others see all the petty posturing that goes on and think 'Not for me..too many stupid people'. I'm certain because they've told me.

Is this what y'all really want?

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Tgace
MAN everybody chill! I post a section of the NYS penal law and look what happens (by the way it is a direct quote, you can find it at http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?cl=82 if you doubt me). If people feel "intimidated" by reading it that's their issue not mine as I wasnt pointing it at anybody in particular in the first place.

Here lets change the topic....heres another piece of NYS Law.

ARTICLE 35
Defense of justification
S 35.15 Justification; use of physical force in defense of a person.
1. A person may, subject to the provisions of subdivision two, use physical force upon another person when and to the extent he reasonably believes such to be necessary to defend himself or a third person from what he reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of unlawful physical force by such other person, unless:
(a) The latter`s conduct was provoked by the actor himself with intent to cause physical injury to another person; or
(b) The actor was the initial aggressor; except that in such case his use of physical force is nevertheless justifiable if he has withdrawn from the encounter and effectively communicated such withdrawal to such other person but the latter persists in continuing the incident by the use or threatened imminent use of unlawful physical force; or
(c) The physical force involved is the product of a combat by
agreement not specifically authorized by law.

I find sub (b) and (c) interesting. (b) says "you have no "right" to start a fight but if you do start the fight and at some point say "stop I give" and the other guy keeps on coming, you now have the "right" to use force to defend yourself".
(c) says "if you have a mutual fight youre bolth in trouble".

Tgace,

Thank you for the follow up post linking in the law.
:asian:

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Rocky
Not sure if I have the right person, but Bob I beleave the owner of this fine forum.

Yes, Bob Hubbard owns the board--lock, stock, and barrel. Thes rest of us are just volunteer helpers.

We have in the past received threats of lawsuits and (e-mail) communication from lawyers--Yes, real lawyers--over matters posted on the board (not necessarily in this forum). It comes with the territory.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Rocky
Hey everyone I got promoted!! Wow!!


Hey if I went to the TKD forum, I'd probably be black belt by now wouldn't I

LOL! :rofl:

[Bob Hubbard]

Originally posted by Rocky
Not sure if I have the right person, but Bob I beleave the owner of this fine forum. ( by the way all kidding a side you have done a hell of a job) But!!!! the way the laws are now a days some dirt bag lawyer, (Like mine;) ) might want to see how deep your pockets are when Master Anderson losses his mind some day and flys out here to Michigan and kicks my ass, because I called him "OLD" one to many times:D .

Heh. Rocky, my pockets are so shallow, snakes look down on em. MartialTalk is at best a break-even operation. Heh...the best any lawsuits gonna get outta me is an 84 Buick wagon, and some pocket lint. :rofl:

BTW: The buicks for sale. LOL!

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by Rocky
...when Master Anderson losses his mind some day and flys out here to Michigan and kicks my ass, because I called him "OLD" one to many times:D . Rocky

Beat y'all to it far too long ago to lose my mind over it now. Only 7 shopping days to go til my birthday (51st).

Yours,
Dan Anderson

[Tgace]

Originally posted by Dan Anderson
Beat y'all to it far too long ago to lose my mind over it now. Only 7 shopping days to go til my birthday (51st).

Yours,
Dan Anderson

What size artificial hip do you wear??:D

[Dan Anderson]

Still accepting donations (large ones) for my first one.

Yours,
Dan

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Originally posted by Dan Anderson
Beat y'all to it far too long ago to lose my mind over it now. Only 7 shopping days to go til my birthday (51st).

Yours,
Dan Anderson


Are you trying to tell us something?:confused: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Dan Anderson]

Buy me a birthday present and don't spare the bucks, you cheap buzzard.

With manners,
Dan Anderson

[loki09789]

Dan,

How old will you be...again:) Do we have to puree the cake?:)

Paul

[Dan Anderson]

Paul,
Were I Jack Benny I'd be 39 again. :shrug:

Puree the cake? That's the kind of monitarily cheap thinking I'd expect from Renegado. Gifts - expensive gifts! Pay homage to having had the wonderfulness of experiencing the glory that is me! :D

Chad,
Have you sent the digital camera yet? Waiting. :confused:

Very few shopping days left (including postal time).

Yours,
Moi

[dearnis.com]

Yes Dan, the camera came today. Will have to charge it and break it in. It will remain a fond remembrance of your birthday. If I decide to pick up something else in your honor I will forward a photo or two
:D

[arnisador]

Let's buy him some typewriter paper and a new ribbon--maybe he'll write a book!

[Rocky]

I'd buy him a cake, but with all those candles the damn thing would set off the fire alarms. A three alarm fire:rofl:


Rocky

[Dan Anderson]

Youse guys are berry, berry funny. Cheap but berry, berry funny.
:rofl:

Old Man Dan

PS- There's still time for you to repent on your cheap ways and buy me something expensive but please, no framed 8 X 10 photos of Renegado in swim trunks. Some things should never be done.

[arnisador]

What if we got him to sign the photo?

[Tapps]

Wow !

Just catching up on this thread ... it seems to be a first class pissin' match.

Just the image of all these bad ass dudes hunting and pecking violently over a keyboard gives me a chuckle.


Since we've gotten into posting laws here maybe someone should find local fire codes BEFORE anyone lights the candles on Anderson's cake.


:D :D :D :D :D

[Dan Anderson]

(You may sing along if you like)

Heppy Burpsday to me
Hoppy birdsdale to me
Hippie barstool to themostwonderfulfellayoucouldeverfigurewouldcommit blasphemybydoingMA80eventhoughkellywordendon'tlike himnomore
Hoagie bopsday to me:D

51 and still counting but no longer still waiting for you cheap bastards to send me highly expensive gifts. And no, even an autographed picture of Renegado in speedo swim trunks will not make up for the lack of expensive things I can hock at a later time.

Older but wiser,
Dan Anderson

[Bob Hubbard]

:cheers:

:rofl:
:rofl:
:rofl:

[Guro Harold]

Happy Birthday Dan!!!!:)

[arnisador]

Happy Birthday!

[Bob Hubbard]

That reminds me Dan...next time your out this way, I got a walker for ya.....

:rofl:

[Rocky]

51 and still going strong!!!!!!!!

Of course we new the world was in trouble when the Doctor delivered you,smacked you on the butt the reached up and slapped your mama!! Well heres to many more!!! And just think how wonderful those years will be Wordenless :rofl:

Remember if you can't be good be carefull!!!

And go easy on the Viagra!

Rocky

[Rich Parsons]

Happy Birthday Young Man. I hope you can grow old and wise, and take your time doing it :D.

:cool:

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Happy B-day!!

:-partyon: :enguard: :drinkbeer : :ladysman: :cheers: