can we all just get along

[hapki-bujutsu]

Does anyone ever see martial artists of all styles working togeather to promote the arts? I feel all can co-exist. It is good to have diffrent styles for difrent peoples needs. The biggest crime is when a school teaching a style doesn't make people aware of what the goal of the school is. If it is met then great. for example

sport martial arts

bjj- this is a sport art first but can help you as a fighter if the right things fall into place.

kickboxing- sport and fitness. not real close to a real street fight

tae kwon do. Completely sport. A style never to be used in a fight. I have known instuctors who pass themselves off as fighters to their students. But as my hapkido instructor said-the art o tkd is flashy and very pretty. people who do this art should be respected for thw hard work and dedication. people work hard at what they do. but a tkd student is more like a dancer and not fighter at all. tkd mimics fighting. this should be said up front.

tradional arts

goju and the like. form matters most. after 20 years of hard practice you would be a decent fighter but it takes that long to use what you learn for combat.

tai chi,judo,aikido. these arts are more about a connection to one self and ballence.

combat arts

JKD shootfighting etc

this are street arts to learn how to defend your self in the street.
that is the main goal.

then you have hapkido and kenpo type arts

these teach self defense while still holding a lot to tradition plus balence and connection and combat.

List like these could be put out reminding people that elemts of all exist in all styles but some are geared more in one way then another. This could save someone the fusteration of going school to school to find the right art for them.

everyone could apreciate what each style has to offer.
(sorry about the spelling. I have dyslexia and spell bad 95% of the time lol)

So what does everyone else think? does each art offer it's own rewards? is there a place for all arts? Shouldn't arts play on those strenghs so people don't lump them all in togeather and start the wrong style for them?

Thanks

[fringe_dweller]

First of all I'd be careful about classifying arts the way you just did.

I'd loosely interpret Muay Thai as kickboxing and that sure aint a sport.
BJJ again I wouldn't say is a sport, non-traditional Judo however I would say is.
Again, TKD is a sport but if those guys can do kicks like that at the height they do, imagine if they let loose one at chest height! You really can't write off any MAs as a sport - it depends on the application and training behind them.


I agree totally that there is room for all of the arts, I'd also say that due to physical makeup some arts work better for some people than others.

[Kroy]

Originally posted by fringe_dweller
First of all I'd be careful about classifying arts the way you just did.

I'd loosely interpret Muay Thai as kickboxing and that sure aint a sport.
BJJ again I wouldn't say is a sport, non-traditional Judo however I would say is.
Again, TKD is a sport but if those guys can do kicks like that at the height they do, imagine if they let loose one at chest height! You really can't write off any MAs as a sport - it depends on the application and training behind them.


I agree totally that there is room for all of the arts, I'd also say that due to physical makeup some arts work better for some people than others.

I second that!

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by hapki-bujutsu
So what does everyone else think? does each art offer it's own rewards? is there a place for all arts? Shouldn't arts play on those strenghs so people don't lump them all in togeather and start the wrong style for them?

Thanks

I think you just lumped them all together enough for all of us.

7sm

[Jay Bell]

Originally posted by hapki-bujutsu
Does anyone ever see martial artists of all styles working togeather to promote the arts? I feel all can co-exist. It is good to have diffrent styles for difrent peoples needs. The biggest crime is when a school teaching a style doesn't make people aware of what the goal of the school is. If it is met then great. for example

You explain that you feel all can co-exit, then you move on to give you opinions of various arts....with some fairly bad tone?


sport martial arts

bjj- this is a sport art first but can help you as a fighter if the right things fall into place.

I'd agree with this. BJJ is a sport. There are rules in BJJ....this makes it pretty clear that it is not a combat art. As my old BJJ instructor used to say, "Make no mistake, this is a sport. We may fight, but we do it by rules in a controlled environment"


kickboxing- sport and fitness. not real close to a real street fight

Though I'd agree with you here, kickboxing does help people's fighting ability in a way similar to BJJ.


tae kwon do. Completely sport. A style never to be used in a fight. I have known instuctors who pass themselves off as fighters to their students. But as my hapkido instructor said-the art o tkd is flashy and very pretty. people who do this art should be respected for thw hard work and dedication. people work hard at what they do. but a tkd student is more like a dancer and not fighter at all. tkd mimics fighting. this should be said up front.

Here's where ya got me saying, "Uhhhh". Have you ever trained with a traditionally trained TKD artist (Read: KOREAN TRAINED)? I'm not speaking about McDojang that rake in bucks based on teaching people fitness and tap-tap fighting. I've had friends that trained and were ranked in Korea in TKD...I'd love to see you explain to them that they can't fight. I'd rather be kicked by a horse.


tradional arts

goju and the like. form matters most. after 20 years of hard practice you would be a decent fighter but it takes that long to use what you learn for combat.

I'm curious as to where you came up with that figure. Traditionally trained (there's that phrase again) Goju ryu are very versed fighters.


tai chi,judo,aikido. these arts are more about a connection to one self and ballence.

I wouldn't say that at all. There is an unfortunate fitness craze today in the area of Taichi. This stands out much stronger nowdays (in the U.S.) then the actual martial aspects of the art. Too bad really.

Judo has become (sadly, imo) a Shiai Fest. Speed and brute strength have swallowed up much of technique and skill. It's rare to be able to find a good instructor from my experiances.



combat arts

JKD shootfighting etc

this are street arts to learn how to defend your self in the street.
that is the main goal.

I wouldn't say shootfighting is a combat art. Again...most shootfighting schools I've seen are training for tournaments...that isn't combat.


then you have hapkido and kenpo type arts

these teach self defense while still holding a lot to tradition plus balence and connection and combat.

List like these could be put out reminding people that elemts of all exist in all styles but some are geared more in one way then another. This could save someone the fusteration of going school to school to find the right art for them.

everyone could apreciate what each style has to offer.
(sorry about the spelling. I have dyslexia and spell bad 95% of the time lol)

So what does everyone else think? does each art offer it's own rewards? is there a place for all arts? Shouldn't arts play on those strenghs so people don't lump them all in togeather and start the wrong style for them?

Thanks

I don't think this last bit is possible. As we grow in life, our needs tend to change. The art that was perfect for me 9 years ago isn't the same as the one I study today. It's not about "studying the wrong style for them"...people learn different things from different arts at different stages of their lives. Of course, we often feel, "I wish I'd found this way back when"...but would you be who you are today?

[hapki-bujutsu]

I wasn't out to offend anyone just give my thoughts. I trained in goju with a master who trained in owkinia(however its spelled) He loved the art. He told me though that the one punch death that most(not all) ok and japa arts are based can work in the street but only after years and years. He told me my kenpo black belt aloud me to defend myself now. He was going to show me things that would work later. It took 9 years to get a black belt in this sytem. It was an amazing system.

I have trained with alot of usa tae kwon do black belts. Though they are not fighters(alot a know would tell you so) they need to be respected for what they do. they do pretty kicks that I could never h ope to do in a million years. these are gifted athletes.

The shootfighters i know train fro street but i have seen online ones that train for sport.

my fear is with sport martial arts is people thinking this makes them street fighters and getting hurt. We all have heard about the person who new a black belt who got beaten in a fight. that is becasue they used sport or tradtion in a fight.

I also disagree with kickboxing helping the way bjj does. In kick boxing you walk and dance around looking for a good opening to take. Although i feel kickboxers deserve are respect for what they do bjj is closer to street fighter because it comes out more like one guy moves then a blur. I was (but not proud of) a street fighter for a few years. Never saw one fight look like a kickboxing match but saw some one on ones look like a bjj match of sorts.
I also never have done nore seen one air kick of any kind done in a fight.

My point was people train for diffrent reasons and instructors need to be clearer on what they teach

I feel if a person lives on a bad street and they feel the need for some self defense and they walk into a tae kwon do school they just walked into the wrong place. The same for some one who sees a chuck norris movie or show and wants to learn to do what he does and walks into a jkd school.

diffrent strokes for diffrent folks.

also if you go by the reasons of the current masters of-tai chi, judo, and aikido it is about what i said. being a better person and finding ballence within them selves.

One school in my area teaches ishin ryu then teaches ways to make it practical after class. plus kickboxing later. I think this is a wellrounded school. somthing for everyone.

i know I take alot of slack for this last though but i don't care if you are a 75 year old lady who has only studied tai chi for the last 10 years. You are a martil artist in my book and have my respect. some arts just do more with the art then martial side of things.

[hardheadjarhead]

tae kwon do. Completely sport. A style never to be used in a fight. I have known instuctors who pass themselves off as fighters to their students. But as my hapkido instructor said-the art o tkd is flashy and very pretty. people who do this art should be respected for thw hard work and dedication. people work hard at what they do. but a tkd student is more like a dancer and not fighter at all. tkd mimics fighting. this should be said up front.


Gee...glad you didn't rush to judgement here and insert any stylistic bigotry or anything.

There are TKD people out there who practice it as an art and form of self defense, and not a sport. Granted, they're a minority, but many are holdovers from the old days when the first wave of Korean instructors came over to the U.S. These original instructors grew up on some pretty rough streets of post WWII and post Korean War Seoul, and trained in the Korean arts before Tae Kwon Do was even a word.

You've also fallen into a common fallacy that a lot of people buy into...that a style's students (insert style here) are not fighters simply because your experience tells you so. I've seen people level this criticism at Judo and Karate as well as TKD. We get all encompassing statements like "Judo guys can't fight in a real fight", or "Karate guys can make their kata look nice, but on the street they'd get killed." The opposite of this fallacy is when people from a particular style claim that is the "ultimate" in self defense.

A large number of the people who line up to call TKD "a martial sport, and not a martial art" are folks from other Korean styles who arrogate themselves by claiming their art is more "street effective."

What, exactly, was the purpose of the title of this thread?


SCS

[theletch1]

What, exactly, was the purpose of the title of this thread? I think the purpose of the title was just what it appeared to be and was consequently answered (as to why we can't) by the initial post. While many people espouse the idea of perfect harmony across all aspects of the martial arts (I'm not one of them) they too often fall prey to prejudices that are built into them by they're instructors/peers. I'm not saying that the instructor is openly putting down other styles or attempting to build animosity toward other styles into the system. It's just things that are personal preference seem to come out without even trying. I really don't believe that the title of the thread was misleading to anyone but Hapki-bujutsu. Without even realizing what he had done, he furthered the same prejudices that he was saying needed to be gotten away from. As for me, I think certain ways about certain styles and would need to train in those styles to change my opinion of them/outlook on them. As much as I hate to admit this in the open there are certain styles that I consider a real joke and really don't have any reason to feel that way about them except for what others have told me about them. I don't think I'm the only one who would have to admit this and it is this particular trait that I feel will keep us from ever "just getting along".

[NYCRonin]

Well said, 'theletch 1'.

[Brother John]

Originally posted by fringe_dweller
First of all I'd be careful about classifying arts the way you just did.

I'd loosely interpret Muay Thai as kickboxing and that sure aint a sport.
BJJ again I wouldn't say is a sport, non-traditional Judo however I would say is.
Again, TKD is a sport but if those guys can do kicks like that at the height they do, imagine if they let loose one at chest height! You really can't write off any MAs as a sport - it depends on the application and training behind them.


In the arts that he catagorized you could generalize a great deal and say that a good portion of the practitioners of these arts emphasize the sport aspect of their system.
TKD does have a tendency to promote their sporting aspect, yet you are right... don't be on the tracks when the train comes through.
BJJ promoted it's self 99% through sport, but no it's not just for the ring (or the octagon) and can do just fine on the street.

I honestly don't know how you don't see kickboxing as a sport, or Muay Thai... just wondering what gives there?

Thanks
Your Brother
John

[Brother John]

Originally posted by hapki-bujutsu
tae kwon do. Completely sport. A style never to be used in a fight. I have known instuctors who pass themselves off as fighters to their students. But as my hapkido instructor said-the art o tkd is flashy and very pretty. people who do this art should be respected for thw hard work and dedication. people work hard at what they do. but a tkd student is more like a dancer and not fighter at all. tkd mimics fighting. this should be said up front.


The day you really underestimate a TKD black belt's ability to fight is the day you taste shoe leather.

Your brother
John

[hardheadjarhead]

As much as I hate to admit this in the open there are certain styles that I consider a real joke and really don't have any reason to feel that way about them except for what others have told me about them.

That was refreshingly honest.

The day you really underestimate a TKD black belt's ability to fight is the day you taste shoe leather.

My point exactly.

If one were to misunderestimate a grappler, one might end up sucking the pavement. If one were to midunderestimate a Filipino martial artist, one might end up tasting cold steel. And so on, and so on. There is simple truth to this.

In thirty years I haven't ever really found an art that I didn't think had something to it for someone (except for Hikuda...see thread "Liars in the Martial Arts). Even when they're "not my cup of tea" I readily admit that they have something to offer, depending upon a person's goals in training. I suspect every art has a niche to fill.

Where we get friction is when:

1. People try to make a square peg fit a round hole...and then loudly declare it to be a round peg. You see this when one tries to make a particular art fit an inappropriate situation.

2. People vainly go out of there way to trash another art in order to validate their own. They take empowerment from this. They inherit their instructor's biases and believe in their instructor's myths.

3. People outside a system go to great lengths defining what that system is or is not...all this without exploring the system by actually studying it. It is much easier to give a casual dismissal of it with a wave of the hand.

Martial arts are agonistic and somewhat tribal in nature, so the tendency is for the participants...particularly the young ones..."not to get along." To quickly dismiss a system, at best, locks you out of any insights that system might offer. At worst, you'll end up humiliated when you run into that someone, somewhere, who managed to work that method to their own advantage and to your ruin. You end up eating shoeleather, sucking pavement, or tasting cold steel.

Regards,

Steve Scott

[Damian Mavis]

hapki-bujutsu, you talk about harmony and then you give your ignorant opinions on various arts that offends them all?

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[Jester]

I don't think the person who started this thread intended to insult anyones style. He just listed the styles from a very stereo typical viewpoint.

I think laying that asside as a mistake and responding to his question, can martial arts style co-exist I think the answer is yes. The organistaion of the club I train at is an affiliation of all different clubs and styles.

They all grade together around a base syllabus altered for each art. I think it's great and it certainly seems to work, cross training is encouraged as are new ideas.

On a sub note you might also want to have a look at the following thread, might be of interest

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11123

[hapki-bujutsu]

wow people are touchy :) hey I said everyone sould respect what everyoen does. I also said I rspect tkd people because they doe feats i could never do. I respect them alot. great athletic prowes!!

I also said that all of teh arts have elemts of all in them. Tkd has some defense but is mainly for sport. The tkd guys i know say this. I just think you take somthing difrent from difrent arts. People should have some way of knowing there goals so they can find the right school for them.

I am alwsys opened to others thoughts that is why i asked. those of you who keep saying tkd can be a fighting art and don't this or that are you saying my friends who take it for sport and say they would fight difrently in a real fight are wrong. The world is filled with difrent people with difrent needs. We should all respect all levels of the martial arts. Even if you are a tia chi person who never thinks you will ever fight you are a martial artist in my book!! All of us who study are. No matter why the reasins we study. I respect all arts and all people. So what if you take a martial for fitness. I even think tae bow is cool. I am sure those who said teh stuff about tkd feel that tae bow can be a fighting art too but I do not. But I still have seen the tapes and my friends wife does it three times a week and I resoect her for it. Kung fu is word meaning skills. Your skills maybe worse better or just diffrentr then mine. thats cool. thats what makes life fun.

[hapki-bujutsu]

cool thread jester thanks!

[Jay Bell]

those of you who keep saying tkd can be a fighting art and don't this or that are you saying my friends who take it for sport and say they would fight difrently in a real fight are wrong. The world is filled with difrent people with difrent needs.

Yes, I most certainly would. Reason being, they...like yourself...cannot make a judgement call based on the entirety of TKD training. You cannot define an art based on a very narrow viewed opinion judged from pad-tap fighting. There are TKD schools that teach combat and do it very well.

As Jester stated, you seem to have very stereo-typical outlooks on what is and isn't in martial arts....case in point:


Even if you are a tia chi person who never thinks you will ever fight you are a martial artist in my book!!

Newsflash....Taichi is a martial art. The fitness stuff came later..

Then we come here:


I respect all arts and all people.

Then,


I even think tae bow is cool.

*sigh*

[hapki-bujutsu]

quote: Even if you are a tia chi person who never thinks you will ever fight you are a martial artist in my book!!


Newsflash....Taichi is a martial art. The fitness stuff came later..
my point too! funny you seem upset yet we agree? odd.

Then we come here:
YOu sigh because I like ti bow? SOrry but i like all facets of the martial arts. I also agree that some tkd school do teach the old ways i am just saying most tkd schools today are geared twords sport. I am sorry if you think that is not so. It is a big sport that i love to watch.

Say what you want about my friends but I feel that there is nothing wrong for taking tkd to be in a sport. It is a great sport and you take alot away from it.

The one thing you all don't seem to feel but i must say i do is this
9 out of ten times it is not the art but the person.

[hardheadjarhead]

>>>The one thing you all don't seem to feel but i must say i do is this 9 out of ten times it is not the art but the person.


Nobody here indicated that the person isn't a factor in combat. OF COURSE the person is a factor. Do you honestly think the other posters think otherwise?

If it isn't the art, then given that they "have the right stuff" the sport TKD guys you hang with can in fact make their style of TKD work in a fight?

You're contradicting yourself, Hapki-bujutsu. You stereotype certain arts, pigeon-hole them insofar as their worth in combat. You then try and back off with the "Its the person, not the style" argument.


SCS

[clapping_tiger]

You just beat me to the punch. I was just going to say that it was the person in the fight not the style. Another point most of us don't think about is that we always put this style against this style or think of ourselves defending ourselves against another trained person. What about defending yourself against the guy who has never trained. By my experience these are to ones you are most likely to get into it with. So if you have any experience, and trained hitting a bag and such. You already have more than most people do coming into a defense situation. But no matter if someone has trained or not. They may still be able to knock your block off. Regardless of your rank or style.

[hapki-bujutsu]

thanks clapping tiger!! Instead of flipping and judging like most in this post becasue the disagree with me you just come in a make a point. Bravo. And a good point as well!! I never thought of that. You are right!! That does give them edge. Very good point!!! SOme training is better then none. MAkes sense to me. :)

[NYCRonin]

Although I do not expect you to see why posters 'flipped' on you - let me point out that in ANY forum where you will have experienced and expert levels of participants...you must be judicious in your choice of words. When a person posts with a tone of authority - but contradict themselves later - it tends to draw a strong reaction.
The other respondants made points also, good ones at that.

I am sorry, but it is evident to all that in this case - you were in over your head.
Let it go.

[Marginal]

Originally posted by hapki-bujutsu
I also agree that some tkd school do teach the old ways i am just saying most tkd schools today are geared twords sport. I am sorry if you think that is not so. It is a big sport that i love to watch.
Saying that there are lot of sport oriented TKD schools and "TKD is a dance that kinda looks like a fight, but TKD teaches you nothing about fighting" are two very different things. The first statement's true, the second statement's a lie at worst and bald ignorance at best.

[hapki-bujutsu]

TKD is a dance that kinda looks like a fight

have you ever seen a tkd form.

to me it looks just like a deadly ballet.

over my head?
It is you who have sunk.

As a teacher and a 7th dan I have alot of thoughts on the martial arts. Let it go? you posted so you couldn't let it go. Sorry but becasue some one else disagrees with you does not mean the know nothing.

I never said two diffrent things. People just saw what the wanted to see. I said right from the start that tkd people should be resected. sheesh

[hardheadjarhead]

I said right from the start that tkd people should be resected. sheesh

If you wish to show respect for TKD, then do so. You don't do so by categorizing it as a "dance".

You're showing your bias. Frankly, you're also showing a dearth of experience. I'd expect more of one claiming to be a 7th dan.


Steve Scott

[hapki-bujutsu]

claiming?? What does that mean?? I think I am begining to understand why your name is what it is. I would never accuse anyone on this board of not being truthful. You ignorence and disrespect shocks me. I thought I wouldn't find such things here.

[hapki-bujutsu]

wait i minutes i just figured it out. Your tkd student arent you

[hardheadjarhead]

I would never accuse anyone on this board of not being truthful.

I never said you weren't being truthful. Claims, you'll note, can be true or not. Regardless, I stand by my statement.

You lumped, categorized, stereotyped, pigeonholed, and pontificated...and not just about TKD, but other arts as well. I would imagine some Goju guys would have taken umbrage to your claims that it takes two decades to be fighting functional in their art, but I leave that to them.

"Can't we get along?" A noble goal, but with you as arbitrator?

My point is simply that much of what you state seems to come from a very narrow world view possibly colored by what you've read in the magazines, seen at tournaments, or possibly taken off of the internet. You might very well be a 7th dan in whatever...but you're using that to defend your waffling and wind changing stance. That looks bad.

wait i minutes i just figured it out. Your tkd student arent you

Ah, illumination!

Care to dance?


SCS

[Jay Bell]

Originally posted by hapki-bujutsu
quote:

Then we come here:
YOu sigh because I like ti bow? SOrry but i like all facets of the martial arts. I also agree that some tkd school do teach the old ways i am just saying most tkd schools today are geared twords sport. I am sorry if you think that is not so. It is a big sport that i love to watch.

*another sigh* No...what I was saying is that you say that you have respect for all arts....EVEN Taebo. How much respect can you have when you word things in such a way?


TKD is a dance that kinda looks like a fight

Sorry...that statement is just plain ignorant. If you had actually read other people's input outside of your own, you would understand that the "Dance-ballet TKD" is just one interpretation of the training. More traditional schools aren't this way.

[NYCRonin]

You really have got to be kidding. How can you be so naieve or believe we are?

As I said - I did not expect you to understand...and you still do not.
Thats OK - you have become quite amusing.
It seems pretty clear to the rest who have posted here just how poorly versed you are in overall martial methods. And a '7th dan', at that.
I am certain we would all be interested in what martial art - would you care to enlighten us?

[Marginal]

Originally posted by hapki-bujutsu
TKD is a dance that kinda looks like a fight

have you ever seen a tkd form.

to me it looks just like a deadly ballet.

Stop trying to spin it into something else. You said what you said. On top of that, you can say the same thing about any MA that practices forms/kata.


As a teacher and a 7th dan I have alot of thoughts on the martial arts. Let it go? you posted so you couldn't let it go. Sorry but becasue some one else disagrees with you does not mean the know nothing.

You seem to know nothing about TKD. Holding a 7th dan in a different art doesn't really qualify you to make random aspersions regardless. (A 7th dan in HKD? Isn't that supposed to take a while?)


I never said two diffrent things. People just saw what the wanted to see. I said right from the start that tkd people should be resected. sheesh You said they were great atheletes that can move in interesting ways, but that they could not fight at all. In other words you flat out stated that TKD was totally ineffective as a means of self defense.

[hapki-bujutsu]

I sent this to a female friend to ask her if she really though what I said was as bad as people took it. Who knows tone a voice does not exist over the internet. Her answer made the most sense. I said tkd people should be respected but nobody cares. Because said they are not fighters. Big male egos. My dad can beat up your dad type of thing. No tis is my htoughts but i see wear you are comming from. I took goju for a few years so i know about the art. I know tkd guys and some of my students once where tkd students. I also took hapkido four a little over 3 years and my master said the same thing i am saying here. tkd for sport hapkido for fighting skills. and he was a 4th dan in tkd.

My question has been answered by this post though.

Can't we all get along?

the answer i find is no.

[Kempo Guy]

I am certain we would all be interested in what martial art - would you care to enlighten us?

I'm just gonna go out on the limb here but could it be......... "hapki-bujutsu"?

There's a history of the founder of this style half way down on this page. (http://www.aamacua.fcpages.com/journal.htm)

I'm wondering, how come the name (hapki-bujutsu) contains both Korean and Japanese words?

KG

[hardheadjarhead]

I said tkd people should be respected but nobody cares. Because said they are not fighters. Big male egos. My dad can beat up your dad type of thing. No tis is my htoughts but i see wear you are comming from.

Can anyone translate this for me?

Big male egos? As far as I know by looking at some profiles, I'm the only TKD guy in this entire thread that even went mano a mano with you on this thing. All the other folks taking issue with you seem to be from different arts. I can see why you might think my ego is involved, but THEM? What stake do they have in defending TKD?

Nor did any of us pit TKD or any other art against whatever it is you do...so much for the "My Dad can beat up your Dad" argument.

I also took hapkido four a little over 3 years and my master said the same thing i am saying here. tkd for sport hapkido for fighting skills. and he was a 4th dan in tkd.

OH. Well...who are we to question the opinion of your master?

C'mon. That is, at best, an Argumentum Ad Verecundiam. In English this is called "An appeal to authority." The authority in this case (your master) is just one of many. Some of those other authorities out there feel that Tae Kwon Do is a valid form of self defense as it stands, and they teach it that way.

As for you doing Hapkido for three years...I fail to see the relevance.

If you're a 7th dan, I'd suggest you quit referring to your master for public validation of your ideas. 7th dans can think for themselves, and should be well beyond the "My master told me" phase. Your arguments need to stand by themselves.

I took goju for a few years so i know about the art.

This qualifies you to judge that art as taking 20 years before it is functional in fighting? That's like somebody dropping out of college their junior year and telling people everything they need to know about the applicability of graduate level particle physics.

I've known only a handful of Goju folks here in Indiana and one I befriended San Francisco. They have my deepest respect as fighters and as martial artists (and I don't even like some of the Indiana bunch). They take pride in their art, and rightfully so. They can also fight with it. None of them were 20-year-in-the-art sages.

Can't we all get along?
the answer i find is no.

I don't know...some of the people that jumped to TKD's defense were some non-TKD types. They showed, I think, respect and maturity...they weren't too quick to judge. I think I can get along with those folks just fine.

Regards,

Steve Scott

[hapki-bujutsu]

first off i take offense to your suggestions that my former masters should mean nothing to me if my rank is higher then thiers in another style. I will always respect them and their thoughts for what they have given me. My training is somthing they gave me that can not be taken away. I feel sorry for you current teacher if this is how you feel!

This is from a tkd website

Benefits of Tae Kwon Do

Tae Kwon Do students earn numerous benefits from the study of the martial arts. They learn how to increase their physical and mental fitness, and improve their balance and coordination. Students also learn patience and respect towards others and, most importantly, toward themselves.

In the truest sense, this martial arts is not about learning how to fight and defend oneself. As martial artists, we encourage self-discipline and try to instill in our students admirable human qualities that will help them in every aspect of their lives. Ultimately, Tae Kwon Do is about living, not fighting.

The five most important lessons to be learned in Tae Kwon Do are Courtesy, Integrity, Perseverance, Self-Control, and Indomitable Spirit. If students practice these five tenets, they will become good role models and will always set an example for others to follow. In addition, they will exemplify the true philosophy of Tae Kwon Do, which is to become an honorable human being with perfect character and physical condition.

Tkd is not a fighting art. It is an art that mimics fighting. But I repete but there is nothing wrong with that. Tkd people have jumping and tuning skills I could never have. They train hard. They should be respected for that.

My dad can beat up my dad was used as what is called a metaphor. If you are as young as you sound I am sorry for expexting you to be able to think a certian way.

[hapki-bujutsu]

by the way anyone who know a little about tkd history i found a site where they say a old korean drawing shows how long tkd was praticed. however some beleive the picture depicts two people dancing where they look so simular.

The dancing thing was not so far off.

[NYCRonin]

Simply astounding!
Some people dont know when to quit.

Simple specifics would be the only thing that could salvage any shred of authenticity you could hope to claim.

I read the link above...just about the only arts your 'student' left out are Aikido and 'Hi-Kuta'.

I have to admit though -- you have brought many a smile to the folks who have bothered to respond to this thread.

To answer the post that started this whole exercise -- yes, WE can all get along...we usually do...when we have a common interest.

You have provided that, Mr. Young.
The only one you seem to have fooled here -- is yourself.

[hardheadjarhead]

My dad can beat up my dad was used as what is called a metaphor. If you are as young as you sound I am sorry for expexting you to be able to think a certian way.

Ah, a lecture on the use of the metaphor. I haven't had one of those since I was a senior at Indiana University, double majoring in English and Journalism...24 years ago.

(Good Lord...I'm really having fun with this.)


Tkd is not a fighting art. It is an art that mimics fighting.
The dancing thing was not so far off.

Shall we dance, then? I'll let you lead.

I went to the web site Kempo Guy posted, H-B. Jigs up, boy. You've been "outed".


Regards,

Steve Scott

[hapki-bujutsu]

instead of attacking my thought you attack me. You may know how i feel as i have said so but you do not know me. for some reason you have taken me as a threat to you and I don't know why.

The only thing i can guess at and i may be wrong. is that what you say about myself is what you have of fear of yourself.

Resepect yourself enough to not have to be like this. Untill you change you will never be at peace. As i said from the start all facets of the martial arts should be respected.

[hapki-bujutsu]

i see i have hit a nerve with you jarhead. I see whats going on and i am sorry. I didn't meant to hurt your feelings. That is not what I was trying to do.

[hapki-bujutsu]

just wanted to repost this gentlemens post

Jarhead when you learn not to tell people to disresect those who taught you then your thoughts may matter.



Karazenpo
Member
Martial Talk
Orange Belt


Registered: Sep 2003
Last Visited : 11-09-2003

Location: Milford, Massachusetts 01757
Posts: 67


Hapki Bujutsu, keep up the good work. You're doing nothing wrong. I've been in the arts for over 30 years, my first kempo instructor was exactly like you and I learned much from him and still train with him 'til this day. I grew up hang'n on the streets with the guys & I, too learned some valuable lessons there. My current primary instructor has an extremely street-wise background supplemented by a carreer in law enforcement as I do. I take his training as gospel, because he not only talks the talk but he walks the walk. These are the people you want to study under if you can or at least one of their students. For they don't train on theory only, people like you have been there and done that-giving much credibility to what you teach and how you train. Fine job if you ask me! Respectfully submitted, Shihan Joe Shuras


__________________
Shihan Joe Shuras, Shichidan, Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu (Gm. S. George Pesare) & Nick Cerio's Kenpo, Hanshi Craig Seavey, co-head.

[hardheadjarhead]

i see i have hit a nerve with you jarhead. I see whats going on and i am sorry. I didn't meant to hurt your feelings. That is not what I was trying to do.

Yeah...a nerve. You hit a nerve. My ankle is tingling, sort of. I think you hit that nerve. Either that or my foot has just fallen asleep.

Resepect yourself enough to not have to be like this. Untill you change you will never be at peace.

Yes, Master. :asian: (Sound of distant gong).

You may know how i feel as i have said so but you do not know me.

I've been to the web site, H-B.

for some reason you have taken me as a threat to you and I don't know why.

Well, heck, can you blame me? You hit that nerve in my ankle! How'd you do that? I mean...that's freaky. Internet atemi? Digital Dim Mak?

I must retire to the mountain and dwell on this, and ask the hermit Chin Lee for advice.

Regards,

Steve Scott

[Marginal]

Originally posted by hapki-bujutsu
by the way anyone who know a little about tkd history i found a site where they say a old korean drawing shows how long tkd was praticed. however some beleive the picture depicts two people dancing where they look so simular.

The dancing thing was not so far off. Wow. A 4th dan in Jiu Jitsu, JKD etc all under your belt, and a 7th dan in an unamed style to boot?

I call troll.

[hapki-bujutsu]

alright i had to another post. When looking back i just ment to get some people thinking. Then some peoples feeling fot hurt and got offensive with me. So i got defensive. I must admit to never have taken tkd and to be going on my limmited knowledge of it.
I can see why someone who dedicates part of there life training in somthing they beleive is a fighting art does not want an outsider saying other wise. This post turned into somthing way outfield of the martial arts. The last guy who posted though i am sure teaches some form of a non tradtional art and is afraid of being called a fake so he attacks me.

I train alot of police officers( well four really) who when my style saves there lives i will forever be justified. police is the most knoblest profession there is they are todays samurai. If my combat art offends you then so be it. When you went after my art as a tkd student if you where trying to make me see how you felt. I get it. I got nasty and that was wrong and i am sorry. I am hear to learn and get thoughts from as many martial artists as i can. I plan tonight to roam the internet reading peoples difrent thougths and styles of tkd. I acuse you of an ego when that is what I had was doing. refusing to admit there was a chance i could be wrong.

To ask everyone to get along then attack back was wrong of me.
any trained fighter as someone already said is better then a non trained 9 times out of ten. I am sorry if anyone took what i said personally.

I think it's great that you have such a good education and enjoy your training. I am sorry I upset you. I was not being the adult either.

Stress at work i guess. lol. Along with teaching I am a manager of wal-mart and x-mass time is crazy for us. I don't know what got into me. I hope to learn more about the styles I don't know about and would be glad to visit and links you have that you feel promote the style in it's true light.

[NYCRonin]

If it writes like a troll...backsteps appologetically like a troll...and, overall, posts like a troll...then it probably is a troll.
Still, no specifics offered.
No verifiable 'claims'.

An outed troll, it seems.

[Marginal]

Originally posted by hapki-bujutsu
I must admit to never have taken tkd and to be going on my limmited knowledge of it.
I can see why someone who dedicates part of there life training in somthing they beleive is a fighting art does not want an outsider saying other wise. This post turned into somthing way outfield of the martial arts. The last guy who posted though i am sure teaches some form of a non tradtional art and is afraid of being called a fake so he attacks me.

If you're referring to me, my style and ranking in that style are listed right in my profile. I don't teach anyone.

[hapki-bujutsu]

so you tell me i am wrong with what i do. I right back a bad post the quickly change my mind and apolligize. Just because you teach a combat art does not mean you have to have a bully attitude as I have demonstrated in my last post. We really should all get along. Martial artists should band togeather.

When I refuse to let up a am wrong. when I let up I am wrong.

I realized how bad this was getting. I almosted posted name a time and place. God and imature is that. Hurting someone so i can proce a point is stupid and foolish.

Why keep it going? A foolish man can not admit defeat a fool can not accept a win.

You say I shouldn't judge when I don't know you where right.

[hapki-bujutsu]

marginal I was not talking about you. it is ok.

nyc ronin. If you are truly interested in my art email me your phone number and I will call you and you can ask me anything you like. I always enjoy a friendly talk with other martial artists. I will even be paying for the call.

[hardheadjarhead]

Wow. A 4th dan in Jiu Jitsu, JKD etc all under your belt, and a 7th dan in an unamed style to boot?


If it writes like a troll...backsteps appologetically like a troll...and, overall, posts like a troll...then it probably is a troll.


He goes waaaaaaaaaay beyond troll. We should bring him up in the "Liars in the Martial Arts" thread. He's posting all over the forum trying to give himself a veil of legitimacy.

His shrillness, his panicy multiple posts, and his tendency to surf the net and post blocks of "data" to support his statements indicate this. Re-posting that paragraph by Joe Shuras was simply pathetic.

The web site posted by Kempo Guy states that Hapki-Bujutsu is just over thirty. Note that the profile is done by a "student" whose initials are RM. Note too that "RM" manages to write with the same dyslexic tone as H-B.

I am so SICK of guys like this.

SCS

[someguy]

I think most of you are older than me though. Ok adults play nice.

btw TKD can be either a sport or a combat art or many other things it all depends on how its trained.

[NYCRonin]

H-B
I have little to no desire to forward a phone number to you. What would be the point? You entered a public discussion forum.
Made statements from a position of authority that reveal you are a charlatan. You have, as noted, attempted to develop a 'veil of legitimacy' by posting throughout this forum...yet you have repeatedly ignored public requests for specific details as to the 13 arts you have claimed to practice, or who you practised with.
Nothing verifyable.
Now you want to 'make nice' with those you offended and those that realize what you represent in the MArts. Your job at K-Mart has you stressed out? Everybodys job stresses them out. No excuse.
No - I wont dignify this with a phone call. Nor will I respond to your e-mail that I recieved through my groups web-site. Now, you claim 5 B.Belts (which you did not do inearlier posts on this forum) and you have added Escrima as one of those 5. I also reviewed your posting history - seems you tend to avoid the forums dedicated to the arts you claim rank in. Even the few posts made in those forums are generic and devoid of any specifics. It is also a good thing for you to avoid - the mebers of those forums will recognize a 'poser' amongst them immediately.
You claim to teach police officers - so what? This proves that, if your claim is true - which I doubt, you have shown to be less than trustworthy - police officers can be fooled like the rest of the public. That you are being attacked personally -- OF COURSE YOU ARE! Your 'thoughts' posted reveal the person you are.

Watching Bruce Lee movies, T.V. programs, collecting MArt books and magazines AND the ability to do a web-search do not a 'master' make. There are many other factors - and those cannot be faked easily.
You may have fooled your small circle of friends that you are what you claim to be - BUT - then you came into a forum where people actually ARE what you claim...and you expect us to warmly greet you, forgive you for your audacity and accept you as one of our own.
It wont happen. Not in MTalk. You must realize that everytime you post - this thread will be remembered. There will be no 'borrowed authority' for you here.

It is not our fault that you are not having an easy time here -- it is yours. Do not blame us because the water was too deep and you got in over your head. Nor should you expect any to save you from drowning.
On a final note -- I did you a favor H-B by not printing that e-mail, I will save it in file though. In it, you referred to me as 'buddy'. We are not 'buddies'. I chose my friends with more respect.

Based on the material you have posted in the various threads - and the material in this thread specifically - there is no other conclusion to be made other than that you are a charlatan attempting to gain undeserved recognition amongst the members of this forum.
You failed.

Let it go.

[hapki-bujutsu]

i was looking for fellow martial artists to talk with. Good people. And just like anywhere else there are good and bad people. It is funny that You argue a point that I may be wrong and when i say you may be right you still want to argue. Because You ask for this and that you think i should give it? I saw what was going on so I put the breakes on. To be the bigger man and apoligize. You sean to have found a background that only is in your head. This must be your backgound.

I am still baffled that you argue and when you get someone to come around to your way of thinking you still continue. If you teach I feel for your students. A snobby self rightious instructor who believes only his modern art is the right way is the last person a impresionable new commer needs teaching him.

I am aware like you exist in the martial arts yet it still gets to me. I am not close minded enough to admit when I am wrong.

The other scary thing is that you are a cop. As you show here you feel that people are guilty until proven otherwise. That my friend is not how it works in the usa.

I still stand by what i last said. If i offended anyone I am sorry if you reread my first post that is not what I wanted.

You can come at my art the way people came at bruce lee that is fine. I know I am in good company:)

You wanted all this info but when i offered to get it to you you declined. I am not afraid you are. It is sad I uprooted your life this much. I did not relize I had this much power.

[hardheadjarhead]

Ok adults play nice.

There are times when the gloves have to simply come off. This is one of them.

NYCROnin's recent post pretty much explains why. We shouldn't have to tolerate frauds like this.

They pose as cops, they pose as "Spec Ops" types, they pose as martial arts masters (always masters...never mere students). They make a mockery of the arts and the practitioners who have devoted their lives to them.

Play nice? I say "cry havoc, and let slip the dogs of war." If they bring this silliness to the internet, let them choke on it...and choke they will. They haven't the wit to maintain the charade.

SCS

[hapki-bujutsu]

once again I am sorry i have upset this much. I didn't know I could so much under your skin. Scoff all you want I feel I was too hasty with my htoughts on tkd. Come at me all you will. I am at peace with myself enough to listen to you get your anger out.

[Bob Hubbard]

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