Disadvantages of Kenpo? [Archive]

Brother John

12-10-2003, 12:51 AM

Originally posted by Rainman
Don't smoke, drink, use drugs or caffeine and I breathe very well thank you. Smarter than what, expressing my opinion because this is America? I do not like control freaks and that is how you are coming off to me- care to rephrase?

I didn't mention or even hint at this concept. I don't see what you are getting at.

I believe that 'action' is THE heart of the art.
Theory, concepts, principles, opinion, paradigm, philosophy....etc. are tools, useful only so far as they lead to a better dynamic expression of Kenpo in action.
((Thus my cat in motion avatar))

I was saying that the dynamic expression of physical action/Kenpo is what's really at the heart of Kenpo... everything else is window dressing.

You flat out said action is THE heart of the art. Dynamic expression of physical action/Kenpo is another CONCEPT. Opinion is a sub cat under theory.

Everything else is window dressing? So the physical is everything to you... Did you know that most tigers don't root very well? Do you know why?
OK man. You are pretty darn passionate about your position.
That's cool.
I meant the decaf bit to be a tension breaker (humor) not a tension creator.
I was being honest when I said that I usually like to read your posts, and I'm sorry I've earned your ire.
BUT: I still say that Action is not a concept.
action is action.
"to beet and action, meet an action" is speaking of intercepting a trajectory... I was saying that they physical DOING of Kenpo is (I feel) the heart of Kenpo. Dynamic expression of physical action/Kenpo is another CONCEPT
No, dynamic expression of physical action is the body in motion, it's not addressing any thought processes at all. It's talking about being in motion executing/doing Kenpo.
My point is, Kenpo is about action. I've never taken a single Kenpo class with the key thought behind it that I wanted to learn to "think" about Kenpo... but that I wanted to be able to do Kenpo. The thinking is a tool that SHOULD lead to a better performance. The thinking is a means to an end, and that 'end' is improved execution & ability in DOING Kenpo.....which is THE heart.
I do hope you see where I'm coming from in this.
I don't just want to be contradictory with you, and I'm going to continue to try to not be antagonistic toward you. You seem overall to be a good person.
You've got great taste in arts to study.:asian:
Your Brother
John

Rainman

12-10-2003, 01:43 AM

I see where you are going... Mushin another concept. The highest concept with many levels.

Yes you want to go unconscious and that is where the genie exists. Superconscious, unconscious, blackouts, Mushin (no mind) are still concepts. Athletes call it the zone.

Tons of hours spent on the mat using concepts, theories and principles make the genie that much better. It is circular you can't get around it. Concepts rule the physical but without the physical there is no need for concepts. Concepts allow you to be adaptable, repetition allows you to relax. Relaxing allows for ease of movement, ease of movement allows for speed without trying...Mushin.

There is more but it is your turn.

Michael Billings

12-10-2003, 11:37 AM

In my promotion ceremony, one of the things I say after the belts form the letter "L", is that "The "L" is open at the top, signifying the intellectual and spiritual growth that is available through Kenpo, I can train your body, but it is a whole lot easier when I can bring your mind along also."

You can make someone execute a technique correctly, with the proper stimuli, or correction, but without teaching them the "WHY" you are not teaching them about "Motion", just "what to do." If the goal is to teach them how to think and analyze Motion on their own, then you have to teach the Principles, Concepts, and Theories.

That being said, I have taught kids and adults that were not ever going to "get it". They could still block and punch sufficiently well to execute a technique - in a fast Primitive, or even Mechanincal, way. I trained their body without taking their mind along. One of my big gripes about running a school as v. a club is that I do accept a wide range of students that are training for a variety of reasons, and they don't all fit in my little mold, i.e. the mold of the ideal student. Would you believe some are there just for exercise, or flexibility, or to do it with their kids or partner. What do you mean you are not here for Self-Defense? GET OUT!! Yeah right, and how do I pay the rent, insurance, and property tax on the school then?

Mushin (no mind) is where we want to be at the highest level of our Art. Whether sparring, in a technique line, or just doing forms (probably the best place to start), mind like the moon or mind like water is the desired state. Now I am getting way out there, and this is not something I articulate often. But getting to Mushin can involve years of intense critical, analytical, sophisticated thought and study of Motion ... just so we can let it when we have to apply our Art.

Waxing philosophical here ... now it is time to wain.

-Michael

Old Fat Kenpoka

12-10-2003, 01:29 PM

Ohmygawd! This thread is an example of one of the key characteristics and disadvantages of American Kenpo:

a conceptual discussion about whether or not a particular verb "action" is a concept or an action and whether or not the action or concept described by the word "action" is a concept or an action, and whether it comes from the conceptual "heart" or the conceptual "mind" and how you make it automatic so that you can achieve mindlessness and whether or not that is the heart of the system and whether or not that heart exists in the mind or in action...

Only Kenpoists could take something so simple, make it seem so complex, and get all riled up while arguing about it.

Trent

12-10-2003, 01:30 PM

If it means anything to anyone, and with all due respect, as I like kenpo/kempo on many levels, but have never studied it formally or informally; however, I can offer an opinion based upon sparring with many kenpo practitioners and interacting with them on other levels as kenpo folks seem to really enjoy KunTao Silat once exposed.

There seem to be two main weaknesses that I have observed in kenpo, generally speaking of course. One is the previously brought up lack of groundwork. Even should you not wish to go there (not my preference) you should know how to function comfortably there or realistically be able to avoid it. The second is an over-intellectuallization or over-analysis of the art which is also a strength. There should be more application and sparring with less discussion of the concepts and techniques for better actualiztion.

I hope no one takes this as an insult, as it is not my intent.

Old Fat Kenpoka

12-10-2003, 01:34 PM

Trent: Right on dude! Over-intellectualization till our heads are gonna explode!

MJS

12-10-2003, 02:36 PM

Originally posted by Trent
If it means anything to anyone, and with all due respect, as I like kenpo/kempo on many levels, but have never studied it formally or informally; however, I can offer an opinion based upon sparring with many kenpo practitioners and interacting with them on other levels as kenpo folks seem to really enjoy KunTao Silat once exposed.

There seem to be two main weaknesses that I have observed in kenpo, generally speaking of course. One is the previously brought up lack of groundwork. Even should you not wish to go there (not my preference) you should know how to function comfortably there or realistically be able to avoid it. The second is an over-intellectuallization or over-analysis of the art which is also a strength. There should be more application and sparring with less discussion of the concepts and techniques for better actualiztion.

I hope no one takes this as an insult, as it is not my intent.

Good post my friend!:asian:

Mike

kkbb

12-10-2003, 02:44 PM

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
Ohmygawd! This thread is an example of one of the key characteristics and disadvantages of American Kenpo:

a conceptual discussion about whether or not a particular verb "action" is a concept or an action and whether or not the action or concept described by the word "action" is a concept or an action, and whether it comes from the conceptual "heart" or the conceptual "mind" and how you make it automatic so that you can achieve mindlessness and whether or not that is the heart of the system and whether or not that heart exists in the mind or in action...

Only Kenpoists could take something so simple, make it seem so complex, and get all riled up while arguing about it. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

&

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
What are you guys talking about? There are no disadvantages to Kenpo. It is perfect. Complete. No holes whatsoever. It addresses every conceivable situation. Kenpo principles can be applied at any time. All other Martial Arts are merely subsets of Kenpo. Mr. Parker was divinely inspired. All Kenpo Seniors are divinely inspired. Even NASA uses Kenpo principles to power rocket ships. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Are you sure your not DR. PHIL? he tells it like it is too! OFK for grandmaster! OFK for grandmaster! OFK for grandmaster!

Old Fat Kenpoka

12-10-2003, 03:10 PM

Thanks double-K double-B.

I am almost as bald as Dr. Phil, but no where near as well behaved when given the opportunity to poke fun at someone.

kenpo12

12-10-2003, 04:57 PM

And without much work my nerdism point has been proven.

Thank you to all who participated.

Goldendragon7

12-10-2003, 05:01 PM

Orig posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
Kenpoists get all riled up while arguing about something.

I prefer not to use the word argue.... but rather debate. This way we can search out each others thoughts a little more respectfully and possibly gain some insight ..... one way or the other.

:asian:

Old Fat Kenpoka

12-10-2003, 05:01 PM

And without much work my nerdism point has been proven.

Doh!:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Goldendragon7

12-10-2003, 05:07 PM

Originally posted by Trent
There should be more application and sparring with less discussion of the concepts and techniques for better actualiztion.

"Balance" is what I think is the best possible outcome. Knowledge and physical application.

It seems many may not realize that this is a forum and as such there can be no physical demonstration or feeling in this limited setting. All we can do here is Talk about what feel and do. In reality I think many "DO" a lot more physical then some may think. (and I do realize that there are those that swing more to one side or the other):)

:asian:

Brother John

12-10-2003, 05:13 PM

Originally posted by kenpo12
And without much work my nerdism point has been proven.

Thank you to all who participated.
HOW did you DO that?

point made.

Disadvantage found.

I'm gonna go work on form II now.
Don't ask me if it's action or a concept.
I just like doing it.

Your Brother
John

Goldendragon7

12-10-2003, 05:17 PM

Orig posted by Brother John
I'm gonna go work on form II now, don't ask me if it's action or a concept.

Hmmmmm, now I'm confused "I" don't know WHICH one it is [concept or action].

:rofl:
:asian:

rmcrobertson

12-10-2003, 05:25 PM

Hey, "Rainman," thanks for the gratuitous insults. I guess that writing, I disagree," deserves attack. After all, I actually made a very common association of the heart with emotion, spirit, passion--no wonder.

Here are some phases and words that are definitely NOT, "the heart of the art:"

1. On the street
2. He who hesitates meditates in a horizontal position
3. Over-intellectualizing
4. Mushin
5. The paralysis of analysis
6. Not enough grappling
7. The extensions are unnecessary
8. The forms are useless
9. Combat
10. Warrior

These cliches and shibboleths have their place in trying to pass on ideas. They also have their place in making us all feel warm and fuzzy about our own deadliness. But at best, they merely represent concepts, principles, actions.

Since I apparently cannot post anything original anyway, here's a paraphrase from Mr. Tatum: "A teacher isn't impressed by a student's words, but moved by their passion." About the most important manifestation of that passion, I think, is a student's willingness to engage in the daily drudgery of training, and regularly risk the embarassment and occasionally the pain of working out with the other kids. (Of course, for my students it's manifested by their putting up with me.)

Mushin isn't achieved, incidentally, by turning your mind off. Mushin is achieved, if it is achieved at all, by slowly working one's way through the stages of learning until something new happens. Can intellectualizing be a dead end? Absolutely. So can bragging and swaggering, so can closing your body to the study of the forms, so can yakking about being a warrior, so can trying to bully others into agreeing with us.

And so can premature abandonment of thought. Trungpa Rinpoche--himself a real so-and-so--wrote a book about Westerners' propensity for this. he called it, "spiritual materialism:" because, "look how no-minded I am!" and "Look at my new Lexus!" are, at bottom, the same mistake. Me, me, me, lookit what I got.

But then, anybody who's seen the Zen "ox-herding," pictures or read a little D.T. Suzuki and Alan Watts oughta know this already.

I would add that some of this anti-intellectualism comes out of a fundamental commitment to late-Romantic ideas about a return to simplicity. I recommend seeing David Cronenberg's, "They Came From Within," as an antidote.

Or as Tom Joad used to say...

Old Fat Kenpoka

12-10-2003, 08:25 PM

Robert, Robert, Robert:

Do you really believe Cronenberg's work is a reflection of late-Romantic anti-intellectualism? Don't you think it is more of a post-Romantic reaction to the industrial revolution, a reflection on the alienation of the worker in the post industrial society and the manifestation of modern sexual psychosis as identified by Freud?

Rainman

12-10-2003, 08:40 PM

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
Hey, "Rainman," thanks for the gratuitous insults. I guess that writing, I disagree," deserves attack. After all, I actually made a very common association of the heart with emotion, spirit, passion--no wonder.

Here are some phases and words that are definitely NOT, "the heart of the art:"

1. On the street
2. He who hesitates meditates in a horizontal position
3. Over-intellectualizing
4. Mushin
5. The paralysis of analysis
6. Not enough grappling
7. The extensions are unnecessary
8. The forms are useless
9. Combat
10. Warrior

These cliches and shibboleths have their place in trying to pass on ideas. They also have their place in making us all feel warm and fuzzy about our own deadliness. But at best, they merely represent concepts, principles, actions.

Since I apparently cannot post anything original anyway, here's a paraphrase from Mr. Tatum: "A teacher isn't impressed by a student's words, but moved by their passion." About the most important manifestation of that passion, I think, is a student's willingness to engage in the daily drudgery of training, and regularly risk the embarassment and occasionally the pain of working out with the other kids. (Of course, for my students it's manifested by their putting up with me.)

Mushin isn't achieved, incidentally, by turning your mind off. Mushin is achieved, if it is achieved at all, by slowly working one's way through the stages of learning until something new happens. Can intellectualizing be a dead end? Absolutely. So can bragging and swaggering, so can closing your body to the study of the forms, so can yakking about being a warrior, so can trying to bully others into agreeing with us.

And so can premature abandonment of thought. Trungpa Rinpoche--himself a real so-and-so--wrote a book about Westerners' propensity for this. he called it, "spiritual materialism:" because, "look how no-minded I am!" and "Look at my new Lexus!" are, at bottom, the same mistake. Me, me, me, lookit what I got.

But then, anybody who's seen the Zen "ox-herding," pictures or read a little D.T. Suzuki and Alan Watts oughta know this already.

I would add that some of this anti-intellectualism comes out of a fundamental commitment to late-Romantic ideas about a return to simplicity. I recommend seeing David Cronenberg's, "They Came From Within," as an antidote.

Or as Tom Joad used to say...

Oh and thank you for your insults as well... and the typical 10 paragraphs of nothing. You only disagreed? Noooo. Your insults are implied and you use quotes from literature to do your dirty work because you fancy yourself a gentlemen.

Anytime you attack me you will get the same in return. Take your best shot and meander all over the place and put a pinch of Kenpo in what you say... It is what you do best or at least what you do the most of.

The Kenpo I learned has plenty of grappling so what you just did was place a stereotype and stigmatize all AK. How do you do that if you have not worked out with all the groups?

He who hesitates... more yellow belt material.

I agree on one thing, persevering.

1. On the street- Doing what?
2. Over intellectualizing. So Mr. Parker should have learned what he learned in the beginning and just taught only that.
3. Mushin- depends on if you believe concepts theories and principles are the heart of American Kenpo.
4. Analysis paralysis- No such thing.
5. Combat- A concept when talked about.

If you truely want to debate- lets go, pick a Kenpo subject.

Old Fat Kenpoka

12-10-2003, 08:57 PM

:argue: :duel: :jediduel: :boxing:

kenpo12

12-10-2003, 09:08 PM

OFK,

LOL!

Seig

12-10-2003, 10:34 PM

-Admin Note-
Last warning, keep it polite and respectfull.
-Seig-
-MT Assistant Administrator-

rmcrobertson

12-11-2003, 03:28 AM

"Oh and thank you for your insults as well... and the typical 10 paragraphs of nothing. You only disagreed? Noooo. Your insults are implied and you use quotes from literature to do your dirty work because you fancy yourself a gentlemen."

Way to go on the whole mushin thing, tied as it is to ideas about courtesy and respect. Try to lighten up on the intentional fallacy jazz, eh? Otherwise, I'll draw a few conclusions of my own. Certainly Tom Joad would.

As fer you, OFK, either a) you're dragging bait in front of me, or b) you've seen the damn movie. Not fair at all. I based the cheap remark on something the doctor who invents the parasites says about human beings being too thoughtful, too living in their heads, so he decides to change all that. I agree about the sexual hysteria--but I can't say what to say about Cronenberg and modernity...outside of the general visual revulsion.

Hey, if you ever get hold of a copy of, "Crimes of the Future," let me know, wouldja?

Old Fat Kenpoka

12-11-2003, 12:52 PM

Robert: Sorry, I was yanking your chain a little. Your post was so lofty...I just couldn't resist. And, I have seen the movie. It is truly disgusting--and that is why I am surprised you would reference it.

rmcrobertson

12-11-2003, 01:35 PM

That was lofty? You need to hang around with a few academics--but any time I realize that I am among the most down-to-earth and reasonable of the breed, I feel sick.

And speaking of "They Came," ick is right. (Remember the scene withe the two old ladies and the plastic umbrella?) However, again I recommend reading more 70s-80-90s lit and cultural crit--that sort of stuff's all over there. In fact, one of my dissertation advisors' brothers, something Silverman, is one of Cronenberg's actors.

You aren't the only fella who likes to yank a chaing from time to time, by the way.

Thanks.

kkbb

12-11-2003, 01:56 PM

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
I prefer not to use the word argue.... but rather debate. This way we can search out each others thoughts a little more respectfully and possibly gain some insight ..... one way or the other.

:asian:
You don't debate ...sir! You belittle!

Touch Of Death

12-11-2003, 02:11 PM

Originally posted by kkbb
You don't debate ...sir! You belittle! I would like to disagree but I am still waiting to hear how my instructor fed me a line about how the individual considerations(of the eight considerations) are master key concepts. We started a seperate thread to address the charge and you still chose not to answer.

KenpoTess

12-11-2003, 03:16 PM

I am not seeing The Topic being discussed...

Touch Of Death

12-11-2003, 03:54 PM

Originally posted by KenpoTess
I am not seeing The Topic being discussed...
One of the disadvantages of Kenpo is that no one can agree on what a master key concept is and what they might be. :)
Sean

kkbb

12-11-2003, 05:47 PM

Goldendragon7

12-11-2003, 08:03 PM

Originally posted by kkbb
You don't debate ...sir! You belittle!

If there is a problem, allow me to discuss it with you. Possibly a misunderstanding or even an apology is necessary, in either case, I'm always open to discuss what may have annoyed you as it is not my intention to belittle anyone.

Feel free to email me @ goldendragon7@cox.net

Respectfully
:asian:

tshadowchaser

12-11-2003, 08:11 PM

And now back to the subject of the disadvantages of/in Kenpo

I see one of the disavantages as being the speed that many students try to do their technques with. I have no problem with speed BUT it must be accurate in its placemnt in relation to the taget area. Way to many young students are fast as hell but cant hit the correct part of the body with their techniques
More than a few also lose their strength of penatration with speed thusly so many discribe the art as a slap art

arnisador

12-11-2003, 08:12 PM

We have removed a post from this thread.

This thread is now locked.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

Seig

12-13-2003, 12:11 AM

Mod Note:
We are unlocking this thread at this time, please, keep the discussion polite, respectfull, and on topic so that we do not have to lock it again.
-Seig-
-MT Ass't Admin-

Rob Broad

12-13-2003, 01:48 AM

The major disadvantage of Kenpo is all the infighting. We fight amongst ourselves over the stupidest things at time. Organizations squabble, seniors disagree, and people that should be enjoying a brotherhood look to belittle each other for nothing. I know that I myself have been caught up in this morass and it seriously hurts everybody. I actually feel bad these days for previous transgressions, and wish that I had stayed focused instead of lowering myself and others to a level that should never be seen.

Kenpo in my opinion has everything including the opportunity to do ourselves harm.

Goldendragon7

12-14-2003, 10:17 PM

It's the lack of standardization of the basic material. Due to the transit nature of students throughout the evolution of Kenpo, many left for numerous reasons, and only captured what they were taught at the time that they studied.

Then, those that decided to start studios or teach those methods passed on what knowledge they knew at the time that they studied. Since there was no real structure for updating ones art, several versions developed. Thus the diversity of the Art and independent opinions on said material.

Ed Parker was a constant organizer and evolver. He would constantly organize or re-organize his material into logical areas (updating necessary areas - or further explaining or refining areas that seemed to be solid in content).

New manuals and videos were in the works as well as better and more complete descriptions and understandings of the techniques, forms, sets, and basics.

Technique descriptions and especially what the defense was exactly in response for, were being addressed which would clarify the purpose of a specific technique and cut down on "presumed" interpretations.

Ed Parker was a multi-tasker and multi-interpretation minded. Too many look at a movement or technique and only see an obvious function when in reality it has several functions. This alone is one sad problem that many don't see. Like Mr. Parker said; "Many look but few see", "Several hear, but few listen".

:asian:

True2Kenpo

12-15-2003, 03:44 PM

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
It's the lack of standardization of the basic material. Due to the transit nature of students throughout the evolution of Kenpo, many left for numerous reasons, and only captured what they were taught at the time that they studied.

Then, those that decided to start studios or teach those methods passed on what knowledge they knew at the time that they studied. Since there was no real structure for updating ones art, several versions developed. Thus the diversity of the Art and independent opinions on said material.

Ed Parker was a constant organizer and evolver. He would constantly organize or re-organize his material into logical areas (updating necessary areas - or further explaining or refining areas that seemed to be solid in content).

New manuals and videos were in the works as well as better and more complete descriptions and understandings of the techniques, forms, sets, and basics.

Technique descriptions and especially what the defense was exactly in response for, were being addressed which would clarify the purpose of a specific technique and cut down on "presumed" interpretations.

Ed Parker was a multi-tasker and multi-interpretation minded. Too many look at a movement or technique and only see an obvious function when in reality it has several functions. This alone is one sad problem that many don't see. Like Mr. Parker said; "Many look but few see", "Several hear, but few listen".

:asian:

I completely agree sir!

You mentioned about newer manuals... have they been published or has someone achieved that same level of description in their own manuals?

Good journey!

Respectfully,
Joshua Ryer
IKKA
UPK Pittsburgh

SThiess

12-16-2003, 04:20 PM

I feel that one of the main problems is that practitioners in Kenpo think the Art instead of feeling is. Do not try to analyze it to much, just do it and you will feel it.

Touch Of Death

12-16-2003, 06:07 PM

Originally posted by SThiess
I feel that one of the main problems is that practitioners in Kenpo think the Art instead of feeling is. Do not try to analyze it to much, just do it and you will feel it. Ok... I feel that from school to school the basics aren't being done the same. For instance, I noticed on the Tip of the week vid clips that Mr. Tatum teaches to fuse moves toguether such as just dropping to an inward block from an upward block, where as we are taught to recoil then inward block. Both are legit ways to do the move but we are obviously of different schools of thought. Standardizing would lessen one of our journeys reguardless of who is right. I'm not convinced that either of us need to conform to the others methods.( I used this example because a lot of us watch the tips)
Sean

Old Fat Kenpoka

12-16-2003, 08:53 PM

Sven: your approach is good Zen, but not typical EPAK.

Sean: Standardization means that most Kenpoists will have to change what they are doing--not going to be very popular. Worse than that, standardization will kill innovation. The resulting art would be static, stuck in a time-warp, and eventually become a traditional martial art with little real world applicability -- like so many of the older Kung Fu styles that haven't evolved in the last 50 years.

Goldendragon7

12-16-2003, 09:19 PM

Orig posted by Touch'O'Death
Standardizing would lessen one of our journeys reguardless of who is right. Sean

I beg to differ.... Standardization would create a solid "Base" <<<Point of Reference>>> for the Kenpo community. Additional references would also be useful and necessary.

So, it's not a matter of right or wrong but of clearer reference between individuals and groups (which would be great for communication).

Innovation and continued references or drills are always food for thought and "musts" to fully exploit the variables possible <<what if's>>..

:asian:

arnisador

12-17-2003, 12:18 AM

Originally posted by SThiess
I feel that one of the main problems is that practitioners in Kenpo think the Art instead of feeling is. Do not try to analyze it to much

I've certainly seen the over-analysis many times, and also an over-confidence that comes with the extensive analysis ("I understand it so I must be better at it"). The Kenpoist's analysis and vocabulary has beena two-edged sword in my experience--it's a great tool for understanding, communicating, analyzing, and designing, but it can lead to a false sense of confidence.

I've seen this before with scientists and engineers who work on weapons systems--some of them start to lose some of their fear of the weapon because they "understand" it. Being a pistol designer won't keep a handgun from hurting you!

I suppose this needs to be said--of course, I don't mean that everybody is like this!

Ceicei

12-17-2003, 12:53 AM

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
I beg to differ.... Standardization would create a solid "Base" <<<Point of Reference>>> for the Kenpo community. Additional references would also be useful and necessary.

So at what point do we transition from a standardized base into personal innovation?

Reason why I ask is I see some lower belts try to modify moves when they aren't quite as experienced and some instructors advising them to "stay" on the same path before they can then "change" the moves later on. In other words, it is almost like the individual has to fit the martial arts (learn it first) before the martial arts will then fit the individual (modification).

How much should we encourage standardization and innovation? Can both be a strength of Kenpo and not necessarily be a disadvantage?

- Ceicei

Rob Broad

12-17-2003, 01:12 AM

Everybody needs a strong base to rely on or everything the do will be crap. To be able to truly make the art fit you, you must have a strong base. It is through learning the techniques in the ideal phase that you are able to know what works best for you. If you only know 30 techniques you have a very limited view and have a small arsenal to chose from when tailoring the art to fit you. When you know a majority or all your techniques you have a larger number of options and you are that much more able to tailor the art to your exact needs.

Michael Billings

12-17-2003, 01:32 AM

Originally posted by arnisador

I've certainly seen the over-analysis many times, and also an over-confidence that comes with the extensive analysis ("I understand it so I must be better at it"). The Kenpoist's analysis and vocabulary has beena two-edged sword in my experience--it's a great tool for understanding, communicating, analyzing, and designing, but it can lead to a false sense of confidence. ...

Boy did you say a mouthful. Lots of people out there can talk the talk, without really being able to walk the walk. What I and other good upper ranking Kenpoist, which I am not, are more concerned about, is that they do not even know that what they are doing is not good Kenpo. I am not implying anyone in particular, but rather a comment I and some of my "Senior" friends have discussed many times.

Now that lack of a consistant base, and then the enforcement of a consistant standard, is a disadvantage or "hole" in my opinion.

-Michael

Goldendragon7

12-17-2003, 02:03 AM

Originally posted by Ceicei
So at what point do we transition from a standardized base into personal innovation?
- Ceicei

Good question. It has been my experience over the last 30 years, that it all depends on the student. I have encouraged "transition" to some students at say the purple belt level and yet others not until brown or even black, it really depends on the individual involved and many factors.

Originally posted by Ceicei
Reason why I ask is I see some lower belts try to modify moves when they aren't quite as experienced and some instructors advising them to "stay" on the same path before they can then "change" the moves later on.
- Ceicei

I think they should always listen to the instructor. If they are not doing a good job then there will always be room for adjustment later on.

Originally posted by Ceicei
In other words, it is almost like the individual has to fit (learn) the martial arts first, before the martial arts will then fit the individual (modification).
- Ceicei

I agree, you need a solid foundation first.

Originally posted by Ceicei
How much should we encourage standardization and innovation? Can both be a strength of Kenpo and not necessarily be a disadvantage?
- Ceicei

We should encourage both... standardization in the early stages and innovation in the later. Both can absolutely be a huge strength of Kenpo.

there is a saying.....

If you want to make progress in Kenpo it is only possible when:
* Knowledge is transferred,
* Providing that Motivation is present,
* And Innovation takes place.

:asian:

Touch Of Death

12-17-2003, 04:03 AM

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
I beg to differ.... Standardization would create a solid "Base" <<<Point of Reference>>> for the Kenpo community. Additional references would also be useful and necessary.

So, it's not a matter of right or wrong but of clearer reference between individuals and groups (which would be great for communication).

Innovation and continued references or drills are always food for thought and "musts" to fully exploit the variables possible <<what if's>>..

:asian: Who is going to decide one of us is wrong?

Seig

12-17-2003, 06:09 AM

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
Who is going to decide one of us is wrong?
C'mon, that is just asking to start flames. Even if everyone has the same base, people will develop differently. How many ways are there to swing a hammer? How many ways are there to turn a wrench? How many different ways do people hold pencils? The answers to these are very few. But different people can accomplish deifferent things with these tools, although they have a common set of basics, what they do with them is up to them.

Goldendragon7

12-17-2003, 11:14 AM

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
Who is going to decide one of us is wrong?

Why does there always have to be a right or wrong?

No One. My point was to just offer a different perspective and my personal opinion on the topic. Most of my views have been formulated due to personal experiences, observations and trial and error over the past 3 decades. Issues that I have had good measures of success with I tend to keep and pass on. If you have different views and experiences so be it.

Your input is valuable regardless of anyone else's opinions. Thanks for sharing YOUR views. :)
:asian:

Old Fat Kenpoka

12-17-2003, 01:42 PM

But it's too late now.

How many times has the curriculum changed and which would we choose? 32 techniques, not-to-mention-Tracy's-Kenpo, 24 techniques, 16 techniques, IKCA, etc.

Who would set the standard? Over a dozen EPAK associations, so many 9th and 10th degrees.

Would we surrender our autonomy to be judged by someone else?

I see EP Kenpo splitting onto three paths since Mr. Parker's death: 1) preservation of the 24 technique curriculum as outlined in Infinite Insights, 2) reform by those adopting 16 technique curriculum developed by Mr. Duffy and/or adding elements of other systems (like kick-boxing, grappling, etc.), 3) revolution by those adopting entirely different curriculum like the IKCA and countless independents. With three distinct paths, there would be at least three distinct standards.

Old Fat Kenpoka

12-17-2003, 02:15 PM

I do believe there is a way to foster a standard that can be easily agreed upon despite varying curriculum and multiple associations.

At every belt level students need to demonstrate proficiency in Kenpo katas, Kenpo techniques, and freestyle movements.

How can students with different curriculum and different associations be measured to the same standard of proficiency at each belt?

Tournament competition is the only way I can think of to accomplish this. If tournaments are conducted regularly, follow the same rules (I know: back to the original problem of multiple associations) and students compete in Kata, Technique demonstration, and sparring, then everyone can their proficiency and measure it against others.

This works in Judo, it works in BJJ, it used to work in Tae Kwon Do, and it could work in Kenpo.

Goldendragon7

12-17-2003, 04:46 PM

Orig posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
It's too late now for Standardization.

I agree with you for the most part. Since Mr. Parker didn't "standardize" when he was alive, it is virtually impossible to do anything now..... LOL... plus 3 days ago was the <<<<<13th>>>>> year of Mr. Parkers passing (Dec 15th), seems like just yesterday..... doesn't it! DAMN

I can't speak for others, but within my organization, we have a very solid set of standards to begin with and a "must do" as to expansion within the later ranks so as to not get in a rut with just "ONE" version, and to compare with anyone else out there.

Orig posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
How many times has the curriculum changed and which would we choose? 32 techniques, 24 techniques, 16 techniques, .....

Yes, but these versions mostly stayed pretty close, the 24 to 16 was just a shuffling of the deck for an additional 2 belt expansion. the material was only updated normally with the latest of Ed Parkers re-writes, which for the most part were just a bit greater detail on the techniques or the attacks themselves.

Orig posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
Who would set the standard? Over a dozen EPAK associations, so many 9th and 10th degrees.
Would we surrender our autonomy to be judged by someone else?

NO one, unless a Union was formed between all the chiefs at little big horn, and ideas or "basic" standards could be agreed upon. (I'm with you, I don't see it)

Orig posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
I see EP Kenpo splitting onto three paths since Mr. Parker's death:

1) preservation of the 24 technique curriculum as outlined in Infinite Insights,

2) reform by those adopting 16 technique curriculum developed by Mr. Duffy and/or adding elements of other systems (like kick-boxing, grappling, etc.),

3) revolution by those adopting entirely different curriculum like the IKCA and countless independents.

I don't "see" it...... I would say that I've SEEN it already! :)

Orig posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
With three distinct paths, there would be at least three distinct standards.

And even that would probably be questionable.
:rofl:

Old Fat Kenpoka

12-17-2003, 06:41 PM

Mr. C:

the 24 to 16 was just a shuffling of the deck for an additional 2 belt expansion.

Doesn't the 2-belt expansion also shift proficiency? If I compare required material between the 2 curricula I see this correlation

24 Tech = 16 Tech
Yellow = Yellow
Purple = Blue
Brown 2 = Black 1, etcetera...

Aren't students required to execute the techniques before promotion to the next belt? Is the profiency of the same material so much worse for a 24 technique student that they should be one or two ranks lower after learning the same material?

Or, are students promoted once they can execute the techniques meaning that the number of techniques learned or when they are taught are really irrelevant? And if so, doesn't that throw into question the relevancy of both curricula?

I am just trying to reconcile the concept of such dramatic curriculum variation with the concept of a performance standard.

And, wouldn't competition be a better way to demonstrate and guage proficiency while eliminating the variable of multiple curricula? I come to this conclusion based on my experience: my instructor (Rod Martin) revised his curriculum very early on and it exactly matches neither Tracy's nor (any) EPAK curriculum. So with different curriculum the only way we knew whether or not we were keeping up with the Joneses was to compete a few times a year. We felt good when we did well and we polished up when we didn't. We didn't just focus on point fighting, we also did a lot of kata and self-defense technique demonstration. I see this method used successfully in martial sports: Judo, BJJ, Kickboxing, Muay Thai, San Shou, Boxing, Fencing, etc.

Your widsom and opinions are appreciated.

Goldendragon7

12-17-2003, 08:56 PM

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
Doesn't the 2-belt expansion also shift proficiency?

Pandora's Box here.......:rofl: but here is my take on this......

Proficiency is and always has been an individual issue just as standardization, regardless of curriculum used. I have witnessed tests that were IMHO excellent, and at the same time, recall some that were questionable at best. This is another one of those grey areas where the quality of the student has a lot to do with the quality of the instruction.

You can take the absolute best instructor in the world, and put a poor student in front of him and betterment is about the best you can hope for. Now if that same student comes before a poor instructor, the student most likely will quit or take up checkers.

Really no cut an dry answer here, other than thru my personal experience the "shift" didn't alter my groups proficiency a bit but allowed for a little faster advancement in the beginning which created more retention to get over the "hump" so to speak and be competitive with other studios.

Quality was unchanged but I ended up being able to retain more at the upper levels and be able to teach more of the advanced aspects of Kenpo to more individuals.

Same could be said when the 32 shift came to the 24. I felt it was a good move for the system in both instances.

Good knowledgeable instructors to me are what make the difference not the number of drills taught.

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
If I compare required material between the 2 curricula I see this correlation

24 Tech = 16 Tech
Yellow = Yellow
Purple = Blue
Brown 2 = Black 1, etcetera...

Aren't students required to execute the techniques before promotion to the next belt?

Yes, but you shouldn't judge a student of the 16 Tech System with that of the 24 Tech System on # of techniques taught but on the quality of the technique. When we presented this to Mr. Parker, this was one of his concerns but as he illustrated to us..... there have been hundreds of EXCELLENT BLACK BELTS Promoted from the early days that did not have the advantage (if you want to call it that...... but this is another discussion altogether...LOL), the evolved curriculum that we have today, yet they did quite well to pave the way for the advancing of our Art, thru much bloodshed and work, we today can reap many benefits of the past if we but study and train efficiently and effectively. He used to tell me; "it's better to know one technique and be able to vary it a hundred ways, than 1000 techniques one way. Mr. Parker did not impulsively change portions of the System without careful thought and many questions to many individuals for input. It had to be "Logical" and useful. At the same time, he also understood that there could be other means of transmission and achievement as well. wink

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
Is the proficiency of the same material so much worse for a 24 technique student that they should be one or two ranks lower after learning the same material?

No, "proficiency" should be very close if taught properly but the 24 base system will usually take the student longer to reach the same level of belt color (due to the numbers involved).... thus..... color may be different........ but the "KEY" is to look at how well the execution of the material that each student possesses. Quality of basics and execution of material one has been instructed on is more the issue.

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
Or, are students promoted once they can execute the techniques meaning that the number of techniques learned or when they are taught are really irrelevant? And if so, doesn't that throw into question the relevancy of both curricula?

Well, the student will only be as good as he/she trains and is instructed. Instructors are critical. I have seen some instructors that are what I call promotion happy and the students are terrible no matter how you cut the mustard. (most of these guys are the business minded so as to keep students, stroke their own egos by sheer numbers of promoted students, and to keep the doors open).

On the other hand I have known instructors that make the students wait ungodly time with not real instruction or training during this "time" only to "use" them as helpers or teachers to enhance their pockets..... (hmmm this has been a topic of discussion before I recall also), so I don't think prolonged training (Instructor related) is necessary either... now if the student knows what he needs and then piddles around and doesn't do what he needs ..... well, then he is in charge of his own destiny.

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
I am just trying to reconcile the concept of such dramatic curriculum variation with the concept of a performance standard.

I hear ya, but 24 to 16 is not all that radical when you realize what was involved compared to the 32 to 24 "PLUS" at that point the creation of "ADDITIONAL" material that had/have some panties still in a twist over. :) Many reasons from many individuals were considered.

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
Wouldn't competition be a better way to demonstrate and gauge proficiency while eliminating the variable of multiple curricula?

For some yes, for others no. Remember Infinite Insights Book I, Page 1, 3 points of view...... From an organizational point of view, you need to consider the many numbers of different groups that take the Art and for what reasons. Not all that come in have the attitude of leaving with a Warrior Shield. Ed Parker's Psychology and Socialology Degree's came in useful here for business success in which you need to be able to offer a service to the masses. Men * Women * Children most have advertised..... so you can see where I'm going.... which reminds me of the work we were doing in regard to the Junior's program that needed tuning. As he found problems he sought solutions which caused change. Some accepted it ...... some didn't.

Personally I really enjoyed competition and did ok, but others resist or have no competitive drive what so ever. It all depends on what you want..... Kenpo is very diverse.

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
I come to this competition conclusion based on my experience: my instructor (Rod Martin) revised his curriculum very early on and it exactly matches neither Tracy's nor (any) EPAK curriculum. So with different curriculum the only way we knew whether or not we were keeping up with the Joneses was to compete a few times a year. We felt good when we did well and we polished up when we didn't. We didn't just focus on point fighting, we also did a lot of kata and self-defense technique demonstration.

Well, if it works for you and that's where the leaders of your group's interest are... then that's why you are there. As to is it a better way or not....... well, I must point out that in Kenpo we have 3 divisions of the Art...... Basics (which include Forms and sets), Self Defense, and Freestyle. Since you seem to have addressed all three areas with success then I would have to say based on what you tell me, that you guys have hit on a niche that is working quite well for you!! How can I knock success, no matter what curriculum you do......LOL

I must say, that was a challenging but enjoyable post/question!! I look forward to responses. Thank you.

:asian:

Touch Of Death

12-18-2003, 06:22 PM

If we can't even agree on how you might perform Star Block, I don't see standardization happening. Reguardless of wheather neither of us is wrong. Standardization would dictate which method of doing starblock would be taught to all the students. Our school used to fuse the blocks and that is the way I was originaly taught; however, we aren't doing it that way now, nor will we in the future. Standardization by defenition of the word would require one of the methods to give.
Sean

Old Fat Kenpoka

12-18-2003, 07:10 PM

Agreement on the best way to perform Star Block is only important when the judgement of proficiency is completely subjective.

If Kenpoists were evaluated based on competitive performance, the best way to do a star block would become self-evident. Here is what I propose.

Kenpoists should demonstrate proficiency through competition. Kenpoists should only be promoted when they can consistently outperform their peers. The competitive measure should be multi-faceted:

1) Freestyle sparring competition (either point or continuous) or full-contact kickboxing. Competitors who consistently win 1st-4th place at tournaments are certainly ready to spar at the next belt level. Competitors who win at least 50% of their matches could also be considered for promotion.

2) Self-defense technique demonstration. I would completely revise the method used for this.

Currently, Kenpoists prepare routines with their schoolmates and try to choreograph every strike, step, and turn of the head.

I would propose rules more similar to Sport Jujitsu (NOT Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu !!!). In Sport Jujitsu technique demonstration is done against competitors. The attacking competitors attack with speed, power, and intent. The defender is judged on their ability to block/counter/control and execute the technique. The attacks are somewhat pre-arranged: a punch, a kick, a front grab, a rear grab, a weapon, etc. The defender must spontaneously react to the attack and choose/formulate the appropriate defensive technique. Attackers are required to fully cooperate after the initial attack to enable the defender to demonstrate proper technique execution without injuring the attackers. Attackers should probably wear head protection.

Kenpoists should be required to demonstrate different types of techniques at different belts. For instance, Yellow Belts might be asked to do one front grab, one rear grab, one side grab. Blue/Green belts might be required to do a punch, a kick, a front grab, a rear grab. Black belts might be required to do a kick/punch combination, a double-punch combination, a grab and punch combo, and a knife or club.

This format would enable Kenpoists to demonstrate that they can in fact block an attack and then allow the Kenpoist to demonstrate the explosiveness, creativity, and deadliness of our system. Again, competitors who consistently place 1-4 should be ready for promotion.

3) Kata demonstration. I can't recommend much change here. Kenpoists know what they like to see in Kata and judging will remain subjective. Here again, competitors who consistently place 1-4 should be ready for promotion.

-------------------

This type of competition could be used to promote people from Yellow belt on up to 5th Black. After that...I think 6th-10th promotions should be based on the competitive record of the students of the 5th-9th degree Black Belts. For instance, If you are a 5th degree and you have Black Belt students who are winning in competion, then you are doing a good job and should be recognized for this. Advanced rank promotions would continue to be pretty subjective...but if a 5th degree Black belt is producing Black Belt students who are consistently beating the students of a 6th or 8th degree Black Belt, then that 5th degree must be doing something right and should be recognized.

--------------------

A grading system based on competition will have several effects on Kenpo and require several infrastructure changes.

As a greater percentage of Kenpoists compete more often...
1) More tournaments will need to happen and with greater frequency.
2) Tournaments will need more weight and age divisions to keep competition fair. (Heck, I'm 42 and 205 lbs and my days of competing against 250lb 20-year olds are long gone!)
3) Proficiency will no longer be tied to subjective performance of memorized curricula. Proficiency will be tied to competitive performance of both memorized curricula (Kata) and spontaneous execution (self-defense and Freestyle).
4) The number of techniques learned will no longer be a valid measure of progress. It won't matter whether you know 600 techniques, 250, or 55. Students will be judged on the effectiveness of their techniques under pressure.
5) This will eliminate some of the questions on rank legitimacy in Kenpo: put up or shut up, throw down or sit down at tournaments will be the way to judge legitimacy. Internet threads will be more like: "Did you see Mr. C's students cleaned up at the Arizona Championships" instead the typical rank debate consisting primarily of "Who the heck promoted so and so and upon whose authority because I don't think this guy is any good because I've never seen him do anything except eat!"
6) Ineffective and excessively difficult techniques will be de-emphasized as they fail to win in competition. New techniques will be created to raise the competitive bar. The result will be a new freedom and level of creativity in Kenpo technique curriculm that will enable Kenpo to evolve and improve well into the future.

-----------------------

I welcome your comments on my ideas.

Goldendragon7

12-18-2003, 09:11 PM

Orig posted by Touch'O'Death
Reguardless of wheather neither of us is wrong, I don't see standardization happening.
Sean

OK, I can't debate that.

About all we can do then is govern our respective groups with the "standards" of the founders or leaders of each group and accept and enjoy each others ideals, views and positions as "relatives" of the Mother Art that Ed Parker developed.

:rofl:
:asian:

Ceicei

12-18-2003, 09:50 PM

Uuummmm.

Let's see....

If only the top 4 of each division/color can move up/be promoted at a time, what happens with a large group? They are held back just because they're not in the top 4 places?

Think about who likely will snap up those coveted spots. They will likely be the more aggressive, competitive type students. What will you do with students who are relatively shy? Timid students at lower ranks may not want to continue on because of the early sparring (months or years later with more training, under current system, they may have shed their timidness, welcome more challenge, and would turn out excellent martial artists in the future).

IMHO, I don't think competitions should be used strictly as a promotion process. It would possibly cause Kenpo to become more sport oriented. There are people that want to learn self defense and do not care for the competition (which requires comparing against others) and would rather be judged on their own merits and abilities.

What about physically challenged students?

- Ceicei

Rob Broad

12-18-2003, 10:19 PM

Kenpo isn't really geared as a competition sport. Mind you we have lots of good competitors, but our art was not created for the the tournament scene. I have trained many people that will never compete in a tournamen, it is not their scene. They come to learn practical self defense, not tournament arts.

This is just my opinion but I do like the idea of more realistic attacks when defending but tournaments have nothing to do with ranks in the art of Kenpo.

kenpo12

12-19-2003, 01:26 PM

I like what OFK is saying. I don't know that this type of tournament should be the one and only way but I definitely believe in the spirit of what he's suggestiing. It's much the way Judo works. I think the events in these tournaments could use some tweaking but I think OFK is on to something.

[

Touch Of Death

12-19-2003, 01:35 PM

Tournaments are the biggest money racket. Good or bad this means only wealthier students will get promoted. Where I am, we don't event have public tournaments. How far should people have to travel to be promoted at any where near the rate a southern californian would, where there is a tournament about once a week. I can see how someone that lives in California might come up with this idea, but it ain't gonna happen in these parts.
Sean

Ceicei

12-19-2003, 02:02 PM

I believe tournaments do have a place. It does give us a way of measuring our abilities and skills (both as students and instructors) as well as meeting other people. However, as a means to promotion, that's where I draw the line.

- Ceicei

kenpo12

12-19-2003, 02:21 PM

I'm finding it funny that there is so much negativity toward this tournament thing. Lord forbit you have to test your skills against your peers out of the confines of your school. I think that there are many more factors towards being promoted than a tournament, but I also think completing is one of the best ways to show profiency. I think there would be alot fewer black belts and high ranking people if this was how you got promoted, or at least had a big part of being promoted. I think it would stop alot of the political stuff too. It would be put up or shut up. It will never happen but I do like the idea.

Kenpomachine

12-19-2003, 03:29 PM

Don't count with me for this promotions with tournament results... Even though I have placed before in the top 5, I don't think it's a good idea.
Jujutsu has evolved to judo through this, and I won't like that same evolution for kenpo. As Parker said, you have to tailor dresses for everybody (this is an english-spanish-english translation, so it's only approximate).
As Ceicei and someothers have stated before, not everybody is competition oriented, or have a top health, or whatever. But besides, a tournament oriented martial arts turns into sport, centers in what makes you win (flashy techniques, no forbidden strikes, you name it), and forgets about efficiency in self defense. I've seen some of the techniques done in tournaments, some of them winning, and the coreography was there, but not the content.

And you don't need an attacker from outside your school to do SD techs full strengh. I now, because we work with contact, speed and power :eek:

This is another disadvantage of kenpo: it allows people to think by themselves where they want to go... And not two kenpoists seems to arrive to the same place. It'll be overcrowded. :rofl: :rofl:

kenpo12

12-19-2003, 06:21 PM

Kenpomachine,

You make good points. I don't completely dissagree with you, but I also think tournaments are a good way, in a controlled enviroment, to help get over fears of pressure. I don't think there is any one end all solution, but I think it's funny that if you're not concerned with competing then why are you concerned about rank?

Ceicei

12-19-2003, 07:33 PM

Originally posted by kenpo12
...but I think it's funny that if you're not concerned with competing then why are you concerned about rank?

People worry about rank, because rank tells them they are progressing and offers a reason for motivation. Without some "atta-boys" on the way, some may lose incentive and drop out. "Wow, I'm at this color level, look at how much I have learned!" As you already know, just simply knowing the material does not necessarily make a person skilled at doing the stuff.

It's like school, some people study to get grades, others study to gain knowledge and make it beneficial for themselves.

Having rank isn't a bad thing. However, I wish more people would study martial arts just for the pure joy of learning.

- Ceicei

rmcrobertson

12-19-2003, 08:25 PM

I agree that it would be better in many ways, Matt 12, though I can confidently say that I would suck at it.

However, nothing--and I mean nothing--would stop the blather and the lying. Not even death in some arena...I swear, that night the ghosts would start up.

And one of our problems is that, given the present semi-mess, we'd be hard-pressed to ensure that the people doing the testing and the judging could be trusted...

Seig

12-20-2003, 12:01 AM

Originally posted by kenpo12
I'm finding it funny that there is so much negativity toward this tournament thing. Lord forbit you have to test your skills against your peers out of the confines of your school. I think that there are many more factors towards being promoted than a tournament, but I also think completing is one of the best ways to show profiency. I think there would be alot fewer black belts and high ranking people if this was how you got promoted, or at least had a big part of being promoted. I think it would stop alot of the political stuff too. It would be put up or shut up. It will never happen but I do like the idea.
I do not mean to sound disrespectful and forgive me if I come across this way. This type of mentality tells me that some people have relatively little tournament exposure. Yes, proficiency can be shown for forms but it is then subjective to the judges, what if they are TKD judges? I had an ITF TKD black belt tell one of my yellow belts doing short 1 that he needed to hiss on each move. That black belt and I had a discussion, at first polite and then less than polite when he told me he was right and I was wrong. He had no idea what Kenpo even was. It would do NOTHING to stop the political crap, it would make it ifinately worse. Tournaments are too damned political as it is. At the last tournament I fought in, I fought a 5th degree. In the first 30 seconds I was up 3 nothing, I lost the match. After the fight, he told me I got screwed. He and I both know I beat him, but because of the politics involved, I was not going to win. If any of you really believe that mandating promotions strictly on tournament results you are living in a fantasy world that will see the destruction of your schools.

rmcrobertson

12-20-2003, 01:12 AM

Geez, Seig was actually ruder than I was in a post.

I loved the hissing bit.

Only thing I've run into that's anywhere near as funny in that category is that I found out, last spring from one of my students, that she went to a continuing education class (she's a Correctional Officer at ISP) that the martial artist who ran the class made them yell, "ki-ai!!" when they swung with the baton...

Alas, I agree. Our problem is like the old joke about finding the Brooklyn Post Office, to which you cannot get from here. Sorry, but considering the obvious phonies and egomaniacs and loons even I've met in only twelve years or so, the theory's great but the practice is hopeless.

And, it kinda reminds me of the great oldish line from "A Man For All Seasons:"
"Yourself, your students and God...not a bad audience, that."

Seig

12-20-2003, 03:51 AM

I didn't mean to come across as rude. I think they tournament scene has become an absolute disgrace to the martial arts, it's why I quit competing on a regular basis 10 years ago. The final straw for me was at an event in Clearwater, FL. My then instructor pushed me into a tournament I was not even considering competeing in as I had 12 of my own students competing. When I say he pushed me into it, he literally threw gear at me and drug me to the ring. He then put me in against a fairly young black belt that nomatter what I didn't score on. The reason? He went to all the judges before the match and told them to award me no points for anything. His reasoning? He wanted me to quit competeing and strictly teach full time. This was immediatel following a tournament we had gone to in Jacksonville where the judges awarded me points that Ihad not earned and stole a match from someone they didn't like. In the past 10 years this has not gotten better, it has only gotten worse. Sparring in a tournament anymore is not about pitting yourself against someone else, it's about playing a game.

rmcrobertson

12-21-2003, 03:42 PM

I liked the mildly rude, in this case.

I have very limited experience at tournaments, and I don't compete--my head's wrong for it. But the first one I went to, I saw a friend get robbed sparring because while she was breaking ribs, her opponent was tapping her on the top of the head a beat later...apparently judges don't look down below the eyebrows. Another tournament? Ridiculous forms--not different, not incomprehensible to me, not bad, not even gawdawful...ridiculous. Another? Ludicrous, posed (and slow! slower'n me!) "self-defense," routines in which, well, somebody "won," because of Who They Were. Another? Bob White having to stomp into the middle of a ring and tell two black belt competitors that if he saw ONE MORE example of disgraceful behaviour, he was calling off the rest of the tournament sparring. And always, loonbox parents, hyped up out of control children, swaggering nonsense passed off as tough, REAL martial arts, etc. etc., etc...

And the sad thing is, none of this is a shock to anybody, espeically not Seig.

Frankly, the remarkable thing at this point is all the GOOD stuff I've seen at tournaments--remarkable, because as far as I can see in my limited experience the system is mostly corrupt and permanently ruined.

And, alas, I guarante it's not just kenpo. ESPN tells me that.

It'd be nice if we could go with the suggestions. But, no. And for similar reasons, I would NEVER join any national giverning body--because I pretty much know exactly what sorts of people would be running it.

Dominic Jones

12-21-2003, 11:31 PM

I recently took 3 of my students up to an open tournament. They competed in the forms and the sparring. For two of them it was their first tournament. They had a great time, enjoying the spectacular kicks, Ninjitsu demonstrations etc. They were of course nervous before entering their events-but did good :). They were all winners, in my book, for having the guts to perform in front of a crowd.

I entered the forms and sparring myself and felt the pressure as always (It was only my 5th competition in 14 years). I wanted to win but came 3rd and 4th in the Sparring and Forms respectively. My students enjoyed watching me and hopefully didnft spot all the mistakes I made ;)

I think competitions are great for the following reasons:
Exposure to other martial art styles or different clubs of the same style.
Testing out our moves under pressure, stress conditions.
Motivating us to do better if we get beat. Or motivating us to continue to win.
Meet interesting people who also have a love for the martial arts.
Give us a clear goal to work for.
Etc. Etc.

Deep down we know that competitions are not combat but they can be good fun. If we see decisions that we feel are incorrect, then we just have to be even better next time (Remember, it always helps if you position your opponent so that the Judges can see your techniques :D )

Itfs easy to complain or make excuses. If you see problems; why not make constructive criticism to the tournament organizers so that they can be fixed for next time OR organize a tournament for yourself (hard work but satisfying).

Tournaments can be equitable, well organized and enjoyable. If they are run by a team of people committed to running the best tournament they can.

Finally, my Ed Parkers American Kenpo Club is not interested in competing every weekend but once or twice a year. No problem.

I think that all blackbelts, instructors should compete. I understand that some are busy organising, judging etc. but for the rest of you...

Cheers Dom
:asian:

Brother John

12-24-2003, 12:44 AM

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
Agreement on the best way to perform Star Block is only important when the judgement of proficiency is completely subjective.

If Kenpoists were evaluated based on competitive performance, the best way to do a star block would become self-evident.

Evident by whose standards? By what judge or group of judges?
It wouldn't work!

Listen to Seig!!! Evidently MUCH understanding and experience with the joke that is martial arts competition.
It would ruin it, completely. Those elements w/in Kenpo that are bad now (Mostly the political) would amplify quick and amplify HUGE!

Besides, look at even half-way decent tournament fighters.
I wouldn't want to train to move like that, to work like that.
It's tag, and bad tag at that. Who wants to train to be "proficient" at that? Kenpo would degenerate so very badly, it'd be sad indeed.

I see where you are coming from OFK....
but you've got to look a few moves ahead.

Your Brother
John

cfr

12-27-2003, 03:50 PM

I only took Kenpo for 3 months. Ive also been in MA for only 2 yrs now. Im aware that because of this, my opinion doesnt count to alot of you and thats fine. In addition to that forgive me as Im sure some of this has already been covered. I tried to read all 10 pages of your replies, and I actually made it through the first 6. But I just couldnt do it any more. The problems I see with Kenpo are:

1; The emphasis on forms. Obviously this can be said for any traditional MA that uses them. As I see it, you are on 1 side of the fence or the other with this topic. I know that alot of you say it makes you a better fighter. Cool. Great. I wouldnt dispute that due to my lack of Kenpo experience. Opinion of course.

2; The close minded-ness. This could be argued of course that this is from the people in Kenpo and not the art itself. Lets take the ground fighting topic for example. Too many Kenpo people insist that they can apply their techs on the ground. No proof to back it up. But they just know they are right. Why? Because all the other Kenpo people are agreeing with you? My school doesnt do as much ground work as I would like to see. Not even close. Now I could claim that the concepts from my school would enable me to fight off the best bjj guy. But I find it more realisitc to say: "Yes my techs probably could be applied on the ground. I'd try them if I needed to. BUT I DONT KNOW. I DONT KNOW CAUSE I HAVENT TRIED IT. IM OPEN TO MY SYSTEM NOT BEING COMPLETE." Not just insist that Im right and that my system is perfect.

3; I know this has already been said. But since Im writing more in this post than I have all year, I will go for it. The over analyzation is lame. I dont want to be hanging out, intelectualizing, conceptualizing, and theorizing, when an average street fighter walks up and smacks me in the face. Try it. Dont talk about it. Now I know alot of you are saying "you just dont understand" and thats fine.

4; The complexity of techs. Im of the school of thought that techs should be simple. Not hard. Now I know that if I just practiced for 47 years those techs would be simple. But I want to learn to do what comes naturally without it taking the rest of my life.

Normally I dont participate too much around here. Especially not in the Kenpo forum. But this one was just too interesting to pass up. :rofl:

Goldendragon7

12-27-2003, 06:59 PM

CFR, I'm glad that the string titillated you enough to post.... isn't that what forums are for...LOL.
Thanks for you post, you make some good points, (oh and, you don't need to apologize for being a relative beginner or for expressing your views ..... many others out there that have much more time than you are not quite so polite and seemingly have mastered the existence of life.. :) your comments are as welcomed as anyone's, whether anyone agrees or not, they are your thoughts) allow me to comment on a few from my point of view.

Originally posted by cfr
The problems I see with Kenpo are:
1; The emphasis on forms. This can be said for any traditional MA that uses them. As I see it, you are on 1 side of the fence or the other with this topic.

All good "systems" develop drills and exercises to be able to "pass on" their principles and findings. They may come in the shape of what some term "drills, roadwork, exercises, fundamentals, patterns, and any host of other names". The purpose is to teach coordination, conditioning, strategies, and many other factors that may be needed depending on what the particular "system ideals" are.

If one area or another seems to be over emphasized by an individual or organization.... that does not mean "everyone" trains the same way. I think this is a big misunderstanding here.

Originally posted by cfr
The problems I see with Kenpo are:
2A); The close minded-ness. This could be argued of course that this is from the people in Kenpo and not the art itself.

2B) Lets take the ground fighting topic for example. Too many Kenpo people insist that they can apply their techs on the ground. No proof to back it up.

But they just know they are right. Why? Because all the other Kenpo people are agreeing with you? My school doesn't do as much ground work as I would like to see. Not even close. Now I could claim that the concepts from my school would enable me to fight off the best bjj guy. But I find it more realistic to say: "Yes my techs probably could be applied on the ground. I'd try them if I needed to. BUT I DON'T KNOW. I DON'T KNOW CAUSE I HAVEN'T TRIED IT. IM OPEN TO MY SYSTEM NOT BEING COMPLETE." Not just insist that I'm right and that my system is perfect.

2A) Yes, I agree 100 percent!

2B) Due to the lack of written ground defenses within many organizations, and coupled with individual instruction that may not deal with the ground issues enough, don't think that there isn't material there and taught by others. It may not be common knowledge and may not wanted to be released on a medium such as a writing only forum.

I do agree with you however, the "believe me because I say so" is not a great comeback and is suspect at best. Proof may not be offered on the forum but an invitation to discuss in person may be much better.

Originally posted by cfr
The problems I see with Kenpo are:
3; The over analyzation is lame. I don't want to be hanging out, intellectualizing, conceptualizing, and theorizing, when an average street fighter walks up and smacks me in the face. Try it. Don't talk about it.

Analysis Paralysis! Yes, this can and is a huge problem for some that have never stepped in the ring or on the mat, other than as an instructor with willing students to prove their points.

Many discussing points here though, since we are miles and in some cases countries apart, the best we can do with this medium (forums) are "TALK" about our Art. So, with that in mind, realize where we are here. Sooooooo many times I wish I could say..... "hey... come over here so you can show me what you are talking about, I'm not sure I understand what you are saying" I know the reverse is true. What else can we do here that would better that?

I think we all really want to be effective in our execution of our material in the end, but as the saying goes... "feeling is believing". :)

Originally posted by cfr
The problems I see with Kenpo are:
4; The complexity of techs. I'm of the school of thought that techs should be simple. Not hard. Now I know that if I just practiced for 47 years those techs would be simple. But I want to learn to do what comes naturally without it taking the rest of my life.

I find that it depends a lot on the instruction that you receive. Some teach with methods that ARE very hard ..... yet others make the same thing seem easy through the teaching of the ideals and understandings of the material. Mr. Parker used to say; "anything that is complicated is constipated".

Originally posted by cfr
Normally I don't participate too much in the Kenpo forum.

Thanks for your comments and keep posting!
:asian:

cfr

12-27-2003, 09:03 PM

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

Thanks for your comments and keep posting!
:asian:

Cool. Thanks for the welcome. :D

pete

12-28-2003, 12:19 AM

Due to the lack of written ground defenses within many organizations, and coupled with individual instruction that may not deal with the ground issues enough, don't think that there isn't material there and taught by others. It may not be common knowledge and may not wanted to be released on a medium such as a writing only forum.

given the popularity of the topic, this seems like an 'opportunity' for someone with an actual Kenpo-based ground fighting training method to make a few bucks on the book, video, and seminar circuit... not to mention, do a real service to the art.

Touch Of Death

12-28-2003, 01:55 AM

jfarnsworth

12-28-2003, 01:38 PM

rmcrobertson

12-28-2003, 03:11 PM

A WHOLE two years of study, eh?

One of the central disadvantages of kenpo is this: given its original design as a rapid, efficient means of self-defense, and given the history of money-making that is part of kenpo's tradition (not that that's all different from traditional arts), and given its approach to other arts, lots of students operate off a real disdain for the very things that they need to learn most.

Perhaps we could not rehash the whole silly "grappling argument," again?

Brother John

12-28-2003, 05:16 PM

Originally posted by pete
given the popularity of the topic, this seems like an 'opportunity' for someone with an actual Kenpo-based ground fighting training method to make a few bucks on the book, video, and seminar circuit... not to mention, do a real service to the art.
Pete-
Mr. Paul Mills, GM of the AKKI, has developed just such a system of 'Kenpo-based ground fighting training' as a part of our regular curriculum. There aren't any videos and I kinda doubt there will be. He does teach seminars, but you need to be an AKKI member to go to them generally.... so there's not money grabbin...
just goooood movin...

Robert: Just wondering, why do you feel that a discussion of grappling is silly? Maybe I'm just not clear on your reference.

Your Brother
John

rmcrobertson

12-28-2003, 05:34 PM

Pretty straightforward reasons, actually. Because it's always the same claims, and because it's not really a discussion.

Look at this thread. The guy who's brought it up?
He doesn't really want to discuss the issue, and he doesn't really want to learn what other people might think, or have experience with. He wants a validation of what he's already decided, whether this comes from a hearty yeah baby, you're absolutely right," or a disagreement that he can read in ways that agree with his biases.

The only interesting things, as far as I can see, would be discussions of how grappling got into style, the reasons it's so often seen now as absent from kenpo as a system, the ways that "grappling," represents one more example of the constant fascination with something new-n'-fancy rather than plain old training. As for the exposures of limitations--sure, they are there. In my training, in your training, in everybody's training. Sure. Learned that, in some part from these discussions. Got it. Really. Enough.

But I never expected to become the perfect warrior, or whatever the current dream is. Figured I'd learn self-defense, better physical skills, a more-reasonable attitude, better flexibility and conditioning, etc. etc. etc. And sorry, but grappling is simply not the only hole in my skills. Nor is it, I think, the main one or even close.

If folks wanna do this stuff, learn judo, whatever, I say more power to 'em. But I get a little tired of the arrogant missionary work, even if it is just on a forum.

Again--I think a FAR more serious limitation in kenpo comes out of these fantasies about shake-n'-bake martial arts. For a very small number of people, OK I guess--though I still say they'r missing out on the whole world.

Or to put it another way--anybody think that ANY of the grappling/MMA/compleat warrior guys who get on these forums could get into a serious fight with, say, Mike Tyson and survive for five minutes? I know I'd be lunchmeat, as far as he's lost it....

cfr

12-28-2003, 06:47 PM

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
A WHOLE two years of study, eh?

Perhaps we could not rehash the whole silly "grappling argument," again?

You are correct. I cant beleive I was actually stupid enough to even consider having an opinion after only 2 years of study. Please accept my most humble guy of apologies. "If it pleases you, I would gladly lay down my life for you". :rofl: (paraphrase, The Last Samuri)

That silly grappling arguement was meant as an example. I wasnt trying to rehash anything but merely reply to the original post. This is why I dont normally reply to these forums. Because some Kenpo Elitist always gets waaaayyyy to serious about someone else having views different from his. Sorry I didnt post correctly. Apparently Im just not doing it right. I'll work on answering in a fashion that will be acceptable to you. :rofl:

JD_Nelson

12-28-2003, 08:31 PM

Geez Mr. Robertson,

You rip anybody that has less time than you!!!

I have seen you consistently post about how you think 2 yrs is not much time. That it is not enough time to pose questions of meaning. I posted my time spent on another forum and was blasted by you with the same

A WHOLE two years of study, eh?

attitude.

In this time I have never seen you state you experience, or rank. (It is actually irrelevant.) but as forum user who wants to know who they are talking too, and cannnot stand Anonymous, you drop a heavy hand on those that are forthcoming with their biographies.

I have agreed and disagreed with you on many topics. but to be condescending towards 2 years of study is less than positive. I believe you teach at your school as well, but in what atmosphere?

I do think you have a no nonsense type attitude, but a man of your education in both academia and martial arts just comes off pompous and anal.

I do apologize for the tone of this post, but it is sickening to see someone who is my senior destroy perception of the art he and I both hold dearly.

Salute,

JD

rmcrobertson

12-28-2003, 08:56 PM

Actually, what I think--as you'd know if you'd asked rather than just fantasizing--is that after about 12 years and a little more of study, I still know just enough to get into trouble and not nearly enough to get back out again. As for what I don't think, I don't think of myself as ahura-mazda's gift to martial arts, that's for sure. How 'bout you?

As for "destroying your perception," well, I don't see why anybody's perception would be built around what I think--especially the perception of people I wouldn't know from Adam.

Has it ever occurred to you that my--and other people's--"tone," might be brought on, just a little, by the fact that the considerable majority of these posts about grappling and kenpo start out with somebody telling everybody else that what they're doing in the art is a complete waste of time? That the techniques we worked hard to learn, the basics study, the mat time and most particularly the kata are just plain dopey?

Go back through and check. Were things posed as questions? As topics worth dicussing? Or was it, "Well, you guys tell me that learning the art (which I haven't, before somebody starts up again) takes years, but you don't know nothing. Why should I put in the time, the energy, the sweat, that other people did? Why should I even read what other people with more experience are saying?

Think I haven't got that right? Well, here's the relevant quote:

"I only took Kenpo for 3 months. Ive also been in MA for only 2 yrs now. Im aware that because of this, my opinion doesnt count to alot of you and thats fine. In addition to that forgive me as Im sure some of this has already been covered. I tried to read all 10 pages of your replies, and I actually made it through the first 6. But I just couldnt do it any more. The problems I see with Kenpo are:

1; The emphasis on forms..."

I realize that I should work harder on remaining polite when I write. So should we all. I see that nobody's arguing with my ideas, but attacking me personally. OK, fine. It's just a dopey forum discussion, filled with my dopiness as well as yours.

Maybe you guys are simply outta my league insofar as physical talent, and ability to learn go. You certainly wouldn't be the only ones: good for you. It's wonderful to see the truly gifted go. But--what do YOU think it means, when the biographies of the best there have ever been say over and over and over again how hard they trained, how long it took, how much they feel they have to learn?

arnisador

12-28-2003, 09:48 PM

I ignore all arguments based on time-in-art.

I found much to agree with in cfr's post. Of course, I am not a Kenpoist--like him, these are some of the things I see as an outsider looking in.

cfr

12-28-2003, 10:41 PM

Originally posted by rmcrobertson

Has it ever occurred to you that my--and other people's--"tone," might be brought on, just a little, by the fact that the considerable majority of these posts about grappling and kenpo start out with somebody telling everybody else that what they're doing in the art is a complete waste of time? That the techniques we worked hard to learn, the basics study, the mat time and most particularly the kata are just plain dopey?

Im sure you' re not referring to me, since I didnt write anything like that. That might be what you read, but thats not what I wrote. Again, I apologize for having an opinion. :D

Shiatsu

12-28-2003, 10:51 PM

" Well if 90% of all fights end up on the ground, 100% of them start on your feet".

I thought of that myself:shrug:

MJS

12-28-2003, 11:28 PM

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
[quote]The only interesting things, as far as I can see, would be discussions of how grappling got into style, the reasons it's so often seen now as absent from kenpo as a system, the ways that "grappling," represents one more example of the constant fascination with something new-n'-fancy rather than plain old training. As for the exposures of limitations--sure, they are there. In my training, in your training, in everybody's training. Sure. Learned that, in some part from these discussions. Got it. Really. Enough.

There are elements of it in Kenpo but it does not address every aspect of it. Maybe thats why people look outside and study BJJ to address the areas that are not covered in Kenpo.

If folks wanna do this stuff, learn judo, whatever, I say more power to 'em. But I get a little tired of the arrogant missionary work, even if it is just on a forum.

Arrogant missionary work??? I see alot of arrogant work on the part of the Kenpo guy too.

Again--I think a FAR more serious limitation in kenpo comes out of these fantasies about shake-n'-bake martial arts. For a very small number of people, OK I guess--though I still say they'r missing out on the whole world.

Seems to me that in order to become competent you need to spend 20 yrs in the arts. If someone wanted to learn to defend themselves, why should they have to wait that long? Your idea of a shake n bake art, probably something along the lines of Krav Maga, can teach people skills that they can use after a short time of study. Will they be an expert? Nope. Will they be able to defend themselves? Yes.

Or to put it another way--anybody think that ANY of the grappling/MMA/compleat warrior guys who get on these forums could get into a serious fight with, say, Mike Tyson and survive for five minutes? I know I'd be lunchmeat, as far as he's lost it.... [/B]

Tyson is a devastating fighter. I for one, would not want to trade punches with someone like that. But, we're talking about a grappler or MMA fighter. Would they survive? I believe they would.

Mike

MJS

12-28-2003, 11:33 PM

Originally posted by cfr
You are correct. I cant beleive I was actually stupid enough to even consider having an opinion after only 2 years of study. Please accept my most humble guy of apologies. "If it pleases you, I would gladly lay down my life for you". :rofl: (paraphrase, The Last Samuri)

That silly grappling arguement was meant as an example. I wasnt trying to rehash anything but merely reply to the original post. This is why I dont normally reply to these forums. Because some Kenpo Elitist always gets waaaayyyy to serious about someone else having views different from his. Sorry I didnt post correctly. Apparently Im just not doing it right. I'll work on answering in a fashion that will be acceptable to you. :rofl:

CFR- Welcome to the forum. Regardless of your experience with Kenpo, please continue to post and give your feedback. One thing that you'll realize, is that saying anything negative against this art, will usually result in a HUGE bashing from some people. I should know...I've been on the receiving end of it for a loooooooooong time now. It really is a shame how some people can be so close-minded to other arts and what they have to offer.

Again, thanks for your feedback!

Mike

cfr

12-29-2003, 12:10 AM

Originally posted by MJS
CFR- Welcome to the forum. Regardless of your experience with Kenpo, please continue to post and give your feedback. One thing that you'll realize, is that saying anything negative against this art, will usually result in a HUGE bashing from some people. I should know...I've been on the receiving end of it for a loooooooooong time now. It really is a shame how some people can be so close-minded to other arts and what they have to offer.

Again, thanks for your feedback!

Mike

Cool and thank you for the welcome. :)

rmcrobertson

12-29-2003, 12:14 AM

It's got nothing to do with merely having a differing opinion. It's got to do with expressing contempt for an art, and the people who study it.

"Cfr's" previous post, which I've already quoted, asserted that:

a) kenpo, like other traditional arts, simply has too many forms.

b) People in kenpo are too closed-minded.

c) There is far too much analysis in kenpo, and this analysis destroys useful self-defense.

d) The techniques are too complex, and require too much time to learn.

CFR's argument, as explicitly stated, was based on two years or less of training, and three months in kenpo.

Please tell me: what, precisely, did I misrepresent, distort or misunderstand? I'll cheerfully concede: what, exactly, did I misrepresent, distort or misunderstand? Did I get the three months wrong?

As for basing arguments on "time-in-grade," I am afraid that this is not even remotely what I argued. Nor, pace, "MJS," did I argue that either kenpo was perfect or that I was. I seem to recall--and I rechecked--saying precisely the opposite. Among other things, I've repeatedly noted that there are a very few who might not need extended training and practice of the sort I did, and do--though I must confess it is my argument that even the very, very best seem to train their asses off over years. May I ask that you, too, re-check?

And one last thing--I do not believe that ANY form of training will equip the vast majority of us to even begin to handle a real knock down drag out with a professional like Tyson, sunken as he is. If that asserts the perfection of kenpo, well, it's a reading that I find a little twisted.

All I'm requesting are a few manners, an attempt to understand BEFORE attacking.

cfr

12-29-2003, 01:22 AM

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
It's got nothing to do with merely having a differing opinion. It's got to do with expressing contempt for an art, and the people who study it.

Heres the deal; Whatever. I just dont care.

Seig

12-29-2003, 09:12 AM

Lighten up and play nice.
As far as the rest of the discussion goes here's my input.
CFR, from a beginner's or an outsider's view point, I can see what you are saying. From an insider's view point, I have to disagree. Do I consider you or anyone else wrong, from time to time, yes. Does this negate your right to an opinion, no. The diasadvantages or wholes in Kenpo, do not remain with the system, but with individuals. The grappling issue remains hot. Some schools do it, others do not. To illustrate a point, a couple of months ago, we had a few visiting black belts from another system, when they realized that as stand up fighters, they were not going to best our upper belts, they tried grappling with us. One of their other black belts who is also a regular in our school told them, "I told you guys not to try that here, it wouldn't work with them." The reason being? As a student's knowledge and skills progress, I also bring in ground work. I start it about orange belt when they learn Dance of Death. That technique is the perfect segue into learning how to fall properly, and from there we progress further. I, too, had a serious disdain for forms, even after acheiving my third black. It took a very good instructor to show me the error of my thinking and to change my mind. They are still not my favorite aspect, but I understand much more now. The techniques are not difficult, the difficulty lies in how they are shown and explained. At one point a few years ago, when I started teaching Kenpo in WV, I was not looking to turn out well rounded, complete martial artists. I was looking to turn out people I could bang with. To that end, I focused strictly on fighting and self defense. As a result, I turned out some damned good fighters. What I also acheived was cheating my, then, students out of a majority of the system. This was an error on my part. I have had to rectify it, and now teach the whole system. The only real disadvantage I see in Kenpo is impatience.

rmcrobertson

12-29-2003, 01:10 PM

I pretty much agree, Seig, and otherwise I guess it's two posts past time to give up on reasonable discussion.

Rob Broad

12-29-2003, 02:14 PM

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
Actually, what I think--as you'd know if you'd asked rather than just fantasizing--is that after about 12 years and a little more of study, I still know just enough to get into trouble and not nearly enough to get back out again. As for what I don't think, I don't think of myself as ahura-mazda's gift to martial arts, that's for sure. How 'bout you?

As for "destroying your perception," well, I don't see why anybody's perception would be built around what I think--especially the perception of people I wouldn't know from Adam.

Has it ever occurred to you that my--and other people's--"tone," might be brought on, just a little, by the fact that the considerable majority of these posts about grappling and kenpo start out with somebody telling everybody else that what they're doing in the art is a complete waste of time? That the techniques we worked hard to learn, the basics study, the mat time and most particularly the kata are just plain dopey?

Go back through and check. Were things posed as questions? As topics worth dicussing? Or was it, "Well, you guys tell me that learning the art (which I haven't, before somebody starts up again) takes years, but you don't know nothing. Why should I put in the time, the energy, the sweat, that other people did? Why should I even read what other people with more experience are saying?

Think I haven't got that right? Well, here's the relevant quote:

"I only took Kenpo for 3 months. Ive also been in MA for only 2 yrs now. Im aware that because of this, my opinion doesnt count to alot of you and thats fine. In addition to that forgive me as Im sure some of this has already been covered. I tried to read all 10 pages of your replies, and I actually made it through the first 6. But I just couldnt do it any more. The problems I see with Kenpo are:

1; The emphasis on forms..."

I realize that I should work harder on remaining polite when I write. So should we all. I see that nobody's arguing with my ideas, but attacking me personally. OK, fine. It's just a dopey forum discussion, filled with my dopiness as well as yours.

Maybe you guys are simply outta my league insofar as physical talent, and ability to learn go. You certainly wouldn't be the only ones: good for you. It's wonderful to see the truly gifted go. But--what do YOU think it means, when the biographies of the best there have ever been say over and over and over again how hard they trained, how long it took, how much they feel they have to learn?

After reading your posts here and on the CanAm I don't think it is the 12 yrs of trainingthat gets you into trouble. I think it is your condescending to anyone that doesn't kiss your ass.

CFR has the right to voice his opinion and he should stand behind it. He doesn't need to be belittled by you. Time in an art is meaningless it is teh time at the art that is important.

rmcrobertson

12-29-2003, 02:32 PM

Gee, thanks, Rob. I realize this won't have the slightest effect on your ideas, but I couldn't care less about anybody, "kissing my ass." In the first place, why would anybody bother? In the second, I have to tell you that I'd be revolted if anybody bothered....and in the third, the only reason I mentioned what I consider to be my somewhat meager time in kenpo was because I got asked.

Let's go back. I got annoyed--not that much, but a little-- because I get tired of people announcing after their 3 months (!) in kenpo that it's all just a waste of time. Could I have written more politely in response? Sure. Never claimed to be perfect, and a good thing too. And, so could you write more politely--if you're adopting the position that your greater experience (and from your logs, it would appear that you have almost exactly as much more experience than me as I have over this guy), then why don't you exercise exactly what you're telling me to exercise?

As for the issues involved, well, I basically agree with Seig. An enormous problem in kenpo these days is impatience. Of course, people don't describe it as their impatience. They describe it as "flaws," in kenpo--and please correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that their description of these flaws always takes exactly the same form: worthless kata, no grappling, too much technical knowledge, takes too long to learn...

There's a literary critic, Stanley Fish, who has taken to saying that college students should leave their opinions at home. I can't say that I completely agree--it's a little too much like telling people to just shaddup, and it would ceertainly make problems if applied to a field like martial arts in which there are so many phonies. But there's a point worth taking in his comment, I think--and it has to do with confusing freedom of speech and belief with knowing what you're talking about.

What I don't know, and perhaps you do, is the extent to which this is particular to kenpo. It strikes me that it's just a replay of the basic criticism that Mr. Parker brought to bear on, "traditional," martial arts, but I don't know. What do you think?

I am sorry to have offended you, Mr. Broad. But I also found your post offensive; I realize that I don't write like a lot of other people on these forums, but well, whatever it is, it ain't what you seem to be thinking it is.

Rob Broad

12-29-2003, 02:39 PM

My reply was designed to show what I have been reading on the boards everywhere these days. People jump on very newbie out there for voicing an opinion. The only way they will change their is if they are shown the differnece. We can tell people the stove is hot til we are blue in the face but until they touch it they don't know. The same goes for martial arts, we can tell newbies everythiug but they have to feel it to believe it.

rmcrobertson

12-29-2003, 03:05 PM

Fair enough, this time, and pretty much the point that I thought Seig was making. I agree with you in principle.

Seig

12-29-2003, 04:51 PM

Thank you for bringing it back to the realm of the polite.

Brother John

12-29-2003, 06:03 PM

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
An enormous problem in kenpo these days is impatience. Of course, people don't describe it as their impatience. They describe it as "flaws," in kenpo--and please correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that their description of these flaws always takes exactly the same form: worthless kata, no grappling, too much technical knowledge, takes too long to learn...

I think that the reason that impatience is prevalent is because our art....as with most any other martial art, is filled with novices at best. (NO offense CFR, hear me out) Just as there are more 'privates' in the army than officers. Patience is a learned virtue... I learned it through studying martial arts. Lord knows I didn't have any early-on. That's why it's up to those who've been "at it" longer to explain and instruct, enlighten and be examples. The best way to help a younger martial artist learn patience is by being patient yourself, even with their mistakes, assumptions and presumptuous assertions. They are supposed to do each of these.... gives us a chance to teach and to lead.
Sermon over....

It might be profitable to look into WHY these are such common claims.
Worthless Kata?
I'd chalk this one up to inexperience. I think many people feel this way as a beginner, the benefits aren't obvious to us.....yet.
Thank God for insistant and understanding instructors!

No grappling?
Combination of reasons for this one I think.
#1: It's not a grappling art. Simple. Many of it's principles can be adapted/adopted and used in grappling situations...but in practical application 98% of the base curriculi of Kenpo Karate is a stand-up balistic style...period. No grappling? Wrong, there is grappling and many a fine Kenpoist can grapple.... but don't go to a butcher's looking for dry-wall.

#2: again...lack of experience. Assimilating the concepts and principles of Kenpo is a long cultivation process, adapting them for a grappling situation can be done and is done...but the base curriculum doesn't explicity teach it as such (in Most curriculi). Therefore some interpretation is done. Well, a person doesn't interpret a language (well) until they are fluent in that language. Arts like Aikido, Judo, Jujutsu, Chin-Na.... there it's not implicit, it's explicit... no interpretation needed. That's what they do, but don't go to a Judo or Jujutsu school and expect good stand-up balistic striking lessons.....
Do people call "Jujutsu" flawed??? No...they know what it does and don't expect it to do otherwise.
I don't blame the newer guys for this confusion. There's lots of talk about the "Universality of Kenpo". I understand what that implies, I'd bet you do too Robert, but to a new guy? That sounds like there should be EVERYTHING you could want or need in a martial art. It sounds like a blanket art.

I personally think that Kenpo does have Everything "I" need or want....but that's me.

Too much technical knowledge?
Could be, if you want things exceedingly simple. Kenpo has a lot to it, choc-full O' goodness if you ask me. Sure there's lots to learn. That's part of what draws me to it. Does "analysis-peralysis" exist? HE11 Yeah it does. But the "Technical stuff" is a tool, and a tool can be misused to the detriment of the art and the artist. But if used well, it greatly enhances it.
IF it's still an issue for the artist? Let them go do boxing. It's a good way to fight and is very simple by comparison.

Takes too long to learn?
No... it's not an overnight accomplishment. It's not for the dabbler nor the dojo-whore. If you want something that's FAST to learn and appy.... again....boxing. It's rather 2 dimensional, but it's simlicity is it's strength.
Kenpo isn't for everyone, nor should it be. If someone posed that we change to suit everyone.... I'd kick sand in their face. (figuratively) If it's not for you, it's not a shortcoming of the art, it's a reason to move on to the next dojo down the street and find something that IS for you.

Food for thought?
Hope so....
Your Brother
John

Michael Billings

12-29-2003, 07:06 PM

Great Post.

I myself concur that it does not take decades to learn to defend yourself ... if that is your sole objective.

There is more to Kenpo than just self-defense. Although we are a relatively "modern" Art, ala SGM Parker, or any of the other Hawaiin's who brought their Arts to the mainland, specifically Professor Wally Jay and Sijo Adriano D. Emperado, all were founded, or had their roots in much earlier traditional systems or Arts.

You can learn Krav Maga, BJJ (the basic holds and moves, not a high level of expertise), TKD, etc., in a fraction of the time it takes to become a Black Belt in Kenpo, so why do it? If you can answer that question for yourself, then you know why we continue the training in Kenpo, and why their is more to the system than appears on the surface.

Mastery comes to mind, the challenge to oneself, especially if you are coming from another art as I did, the difference in HOW you learn, not just WHAT you learn, provided the impetus for me to continue my own journey.

These are not reasons for everyone, as I state, they are just my reasons. When it is a year between each brown belt, and about the same time to get to brown ... it begins to look like the old Japanese 3 belt system - White/Brown/Black, only to start over again at 2nd or 3rd Black, when you relize what you don't know exceeds what you do know. It is always a challenge, and I need that.

Respectfully,
-Michael

rmcrobertson

12-29-2003, 07:14 PM

Well, I can only agree--mostly. However, you might want to go back and look at, "cfr's" first comment. It was not anything like, "Well, I just got started and here's what I don't understand." It was, "Well, I did kenpo for three months and here's what's wrong with the whole system." It was, "Well, I was going to read what people had to say, but I got bored and only read a little over half of it."

I was talking to a friend about this last night--and I guess it's just us, but when we started not so long ago, our basic approach was to shut up and try to learn, on the grounds that our teachers knew something we didn't. Fortunately, we were lucky in our teachers: I can certainly understand that some folks might not be. But there is another level to the often mentioned, "paralysis of analysis:" the kind of analysis that we use as a defense mechanism, to avoid learning.

I suppose, too, that I wrote strongly because I teach quite a lot in and out of kenpo, and I see and I hear what I take to be the same sort of attitude quite a lot. Why do I have to think about this for myself? That takes a lot of time and energy, and I'm busy: just tell me what to say, and I'll say it. Why do I have to do any research? I already know what the truth is, and I'm busy. Why should I check my spelling, fix the grammar, do the notes properly? Isn't that your job, to do this sofr me? Why would I take notes? Just tell me what's going to be on the exam....personally, I blame capitalism. And Dan Quayle.

Anyway, I mostly agree. Will work--as I mentioned--on the patience thingie. Thanks for the discussion.

Brother John

12-29-2003, 07:50 PM

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
Well, I can only agree--mostly. However, you might want to go back and look at, "cfr's" first comment. It was not anything like, "Well, I just got started and here's what I don't understand." It was, "Well, I did kenpo for three months and here's what's wrong with the whole system." It was, "Well, I was going to read what people had to say, but I got bored and only read a little over half of it."

I understand your frustration, I'm sure it wears on a guy meeting with this sort of attitude on different fronts...
But it doesn't excuse berating and belittling a newbie does it?
Isn't this sort of sentiment and approach expected of the new, the uninformed....the impatient? Berating and venting your accumulated frustration won't change his attitude, except as Mr. Parker said "attitude breeds attitude"...now he may have closed his mind to what you have to offer in the future; and that's a shame.

More is expected of those who lead, and maybe you aren't HIS 'leader', but you have stated that you are a Kenpo instructor... therefore that's what you represent to him and others.

I don't have to tell YOU that "tolerance" is a term that has been bandied about our culture so much as of late that it's all but lost it's meaning in the common vernacular...but alow me please.
Tolerance, to be tolerant....must even be tolerant of intolerance.

MAN....that's a convoluted statement. sorry...

Your Brother
John

rmcrobertson

12-29-2003, 08:11 PM

OK, now I disagree.

In the first place, "berating," is kinda much. I think the guy can take it, and it's just Internet yak anyway. I'd also suggest, if you don't mind my suggesting, that you might want to look at a couple of the posts I received in return in this context. Including "cfr's" "whatever," in response to my own fairly-mild opposition.

More importantly, it's not as though the guy presently studies kenpo--or was ever going to. From the profile, he attends the ASEAN school in Santa Clarita--looks like a good school, from what I could see, incidentally--and, as his post noted, just stopped in to express an opinion.

I certainly agree (as I've noted more than once here) that, like all of us, I have a lot to learn about teaching. However, I do not think that it is always the function of teachers to be perky and to tell students that they are right.

Try it this way. What do you think his response would be if I got on their website and announced that I'd tried what you do for a coupla months, and here's your problems?

The other thing is this: doesn't it seem to you that--barring complete lunacy on the parts of instructors and schools, of course--that it might behoove the average student to shut off some of their own yadayada and try to learn what's being taught? Maybe it's just me, but it seems to me that pretty much all my own limitations in kenpo--of which there are many and many--come from me, and not the art.

One last thing: it strikes me as interesting that I've been reading the same, repeated kvetches about the limitations of kenpo for some time now. At least they've laid off that, "slap art," business...

I think I will shut up, finally, on this matter...having left a beaten dead horse well carpet-bombed...

Michael Billings

12-29-2003, 09:59 PM

I get tired of people making what I consider, snap judgments, in the real world. It is novel to the internet, and news reporters, how they say things they would never say in person, but are invulnerable, invincible, omnipotent, and omnipresent, when behind a keyboard ... whether they are trolling or not. It is one of my pet peeves.

Yes, I too was in a school that was basically a "Shut up and train" kinda school. But that did not mean I did not have an opinion, and sometimes ended up doing lots of pushups when I expressed my opinion. Oh Well ... that was then, this is now. It is a new medium, and people have at their fingertips infinitly more knowledge or information than I ever did. So they are learning to express thier opinions and ask questions. Sometimes well meaning, sometimes not. I still think the only stupid question is the one you do not ask. So we may get tired of repeating things to newbies, shouldn't that challenge us to come up with new ways of expressing it? Can we, as instructors, learn from this exercise?

Gee, I hope so.

-Michael
"Patience is not passive, it is active concentrated strength." -unknown

Touch Of Death

12-29-2003, 10:34 PM

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
I pretty much agree, Seig, and otherwise I guess it's two posts past time to give up on reasonable discussion. Robert,
Your not even taking these comments at face value anymore. I've read your antics on the Kenponet these days and beside Clyde threatening to beat eveyone up (Ed Parker JR included), you insist on lambasting everyone for crap they personaly had nothing to do with. Ed Parker gave us tastes of grappling or whatever with the tactics found in the techniques. He never said it was the end all be all, he wanted us to study and find out what works for ourselves. Rather than taking every common sense comment as a personal attack against you and yours, perhaps you should sit back content that you understand what we do not, and let us wallow in our ignorant bliss.
Sean

rmcrobertson

12-29-2003, 11:41 PM

Michael, again, I see your point--but again, please go back and check. Was it a real set of questions that I responded to, or a blanket statement?

By the way, the school I ended up at is anything but, "shut up and train." I was trying to say that that was my attitude, as near as I can recall--mainly because Scott (walked slow, ate burrritos a lot, moved like light when he wanted) and Manny (the Elbow King) and Rick ("what are you doing, handing your dummy a club to swing at you just because you're in line? at least make HIM pick it up!") scared the bejeebers out of me...

As for TOD's....remarks, well, it's odd that you would find the little I've posted there over the past two months on KenpoNet so objectionable, in light of the fact that most of their space these days is taken up by some obsessed weirdo. (OK, some OTHER obsessed weirdo.)

I am, again, sorry that you don't care for the way I write, and equally sorry that you would choose to make personal attacks. Problem is, I don't feel justified in responding in kind.

Please note, I am not Clyde's mom--though I did see an episode of "Angel," the other night? The one set on Lorne's planet? And his mom seemed a lot like what I'd imagine Clyde's mom to be like...

Michael Billings

12-30-2003, 12:03 AM

I assume your latter comments were to TOD. I have no problem with your writing style or generally what you say ... in fact I usually agree, lately you have just been a bit more on the cutting edge. I AM NOT ASKING FOR ANYONE ELSE'S COMMENTS RE: ROBERT'S writing style or anything else. I understood the context but just want the thread to move on now.

Maybe the Locker Room would be the place to take the controversy that is happening on the other forums and what is slipping over to here, attitude-wise ... if anything. Touch'O'Death, maybe you should start a new thread in the Locker Room and we can bat this one around a while, but we are definitly sliding off topic here and need to get back on. << an attempt at casual redirection (one of the Principles of moderation) >>

-Michael

rmcrobertson

12-30-2003, 12:10 AM

Whoops, Michael, they certainly were. Apologies. I'd go back and edit, but I don't like changing the record on my own behalf...and I'd rather just drop this whole thing.

pete

12-30-2003, 12:29 AM

where as far as the American cultural influence on eastern martial arts removes "shaddup and train" from the equation. Anybody coming of age in the '60s and 70s knows better, and hopefully our children have been taught to question everything.

hey, there are plenty of options here in this great land of ours, and you know what, after 3 months there are a lot of questions that require straight answers or a guy is going to walk over to another option... be it another art or another instructor, and get the answers or maybe satisfaction. after 6months, 1year, 18 months: same thing. the thing is, the more time one invests, the more he's got to loose by movin on. sometimes movin on ain't a bad thing. but... you have to understand, this is feudal Japan or the Chen village, or Wudang Mountain... its NYC, LA, Boston, Miami, Des Moines, Altoona, and Hicksville USA.

You see, this thread is the "disadvantages of kenpo", but the ability to question, to tailor, and to do so without criticism of some armchair quarterbacks, well that is one of our greatest advantages.

american kenpo, love it or leave it... just ain't good enough.

Brother John

12-30-2003, 12:29 AM

I can't believe the dead horses you do beat.
Or that I do
Like trying to communicate to you that much of your good solid ideology is lost in the fog of your rudeness and down the nose stairing.
Shame...
But you know what else Robert, it's not my job to help you see that. I just would rather hear some of the positive insights you seem to have on Kenpo... rather than all of your ad nauseum rebuttals and more consistant complaints of "what really irritates me is..." posts.
I'm still convinced that once you dig through all the ivory tower 'daddy knows best' academia facade you are probably a great person to hold a conversation with...shame we don't get to see that real often. (And before you REstate it, no... this isn't a REAL "conversation"...it's just internet yak. Tell me Robert, next time you complain about 'what bothers you' can we tell you to get over it, it's just 'internet yak'....you can take it?)
1. He complained of Kenpo.
So what. Doesn't make my hammers thunder less or stop my crane from leaping.
2. He did so without a good basis for comparison or enough first hand knowledge to really base it on....
So what. Still doesn't warant rudeness from a senior in our art. Doesn't mean he can't state his case and we help him see where WE believe he's wrong.
3. NOBODY said anything about being either "Perky" or a student's yes-man. Far from it.
Again...doesn't mean you should demean a newbie who's making presumptions.
4. Posing a rhetorical "What would happen if we went to their web-site..." doesn't mean that we have to assume THEY would be rude and beat them to the rhetorical punch cuz what they would have done makes it OK. Neither does the presumption that they would be rude excuse our rudeness, even IF that presumption is correct.

I like you Robert. Stated it before, I'll probably keep beating my head against the wall and still say it later....
doesn't mean you don't infuriate me at times.
Too bad you can't just keep things positive.
You've got lots to offer.

Your Brother
John

Brother John

12-30-2003, 12:46 AM

I've said my peace...
lets move on.
I think there actually was a SUBJECT to this thread that had nil to do with me or my Brother Robert or our subjective styles of writing.
If anyone recalls what that subject was, here's a good place to pick it up again.

Your Bro.
John

Seig

12-30-2003, 12:47 AM

American Kenpo is a process
By Professor Dennis Conatser.

The real issue I see cropping up in my studio and on the internet is the fast food mentality. Everyone wants everything right now, and Super Size it. It just doesn't work that way. Good martial arts are like a fine meal, they take time to prepare and should be savored......

Brother John

12-30-2003, 12:52 AM

DISADVANTAGES of KENPO:
Check out the last couple-dozen posts (w/a few clear exceptions).....

THERE IT IS
the disadvantage.

:eek:

Your Brother
John

Rich Parsons

12-30-2003, 12:56 AM

Everyone,

This is not directed directly at anyone in particular.

I know that many people here read and post all over the internet. I would appriciate it, if everyone would try to limit the discussions and arguements to those discussions and arguements here on Martial Talk. This helps everyone, who was not directly involved in the other conversations, to only know about what is in this conversation at hand.

Martial Talk is for Friendly and Polite discussion (question) and answer of martial arts.

Thank You
:asian:

pete

12-30-2003, 01:43 AM

The real issue I see cropping up in my studio and on the internet is the fast food mentality - Seig

yep. as i said before "American" kenpo at work! you deserve a break today, so have it your way... or have it somewhere else.
we have to operate within the rules of our culture, for better or worse.

MJS

12-30-2003, 01:45 AM

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
It's got nothing to do with merely having a differing opinion. It's got to do with expressing contempt for an art, and the people who study it.

"Cfr's" previous post, which I've already quoted, asserted that:

a) kenpo, like other traditional arts, simply has too many forms.

b) People in kenpo are too closed-minded.

c) There is far too much analysis in kenpo, and this analysis destroys useful self-defense.

d) The techniques are too complex, and require too much time to learn.

CFR's argument, as explicitly stated, was based on two years or less of training, and three months in kenpo.

Please tell me: what, precisely, did I misrepresent, distort or misunderstand? I'll cheerfully concede: what, exactly, did I misrepresent, distort or misunderstand? Did I get the three months wrong?

As for basing arguments on "time-in-grade," I am afraid that this is not even remotely what I argued. Nor, pace, "MJS," did I argue that either kenpo was perfect or that I was. I seem to recall--and I rechecked--saying precisely the opposite. Among other things, I've repeatedly noted that there are a very few who might not need extended training and practice of the sort I did, and do--though I must confess it is my argument that even the very, very best seem to train their asses off over years. May I ask that you, too, re-check?

And one last thing--I do not believe that ANY form of training will equip the vast majority of us to even begin to handle a real knock down drag out with a professional like Tyson, sunken as he is. If that asserts the perfection of kenpo, well, it's a reading that I find a little twisted.

All I'm requesting are a few manners, an attempt to understand BEFORE attacking.

Whats interesting is that you have 2 people here. One with only 3 months of Kenpo and one with 17 yrs. and yet some of the things that I have said are even apparent to someone with less time in. Kind of makes you wonder.

Mike

rmcrobertson

12-30-2003, 01:49 AM

Actually....aw, the hell with it.

My apologies for being honest about what I thought.

Seig

12-30-2003, 02:09 AM

I would have posted this an hour, but the site is having slight issues at the moment.

Admin Note.
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Seig
-MT Assistant Admin-

Michael Billings

12-31-2003, 12:35 AM

Move back on topic guys. I like the fast food analogy. Of course I had heard it before, but the "instant gratification" expectation, and sense of entitlement by individuals in the younger generations, no I take that back, it has spread to most generations, creates or exacerbates the "disadvantages of Kenpo".

Many expect everything to be given to them, rather than earned. Even in a modern martial art like Kenpo, I find this attitude to be offensive at best, and really pissed, at worst. It is compounded by the "MacDojo" issue and systems, arts, or instructors catering and compromising to the masses. I understand we have to do this in some cases to keep the doors open, but when people are pushed through a program, and promotions are given due to time and $$'s, (which we all know happens), then we are creating a generation of Black Belts who don't even know what they don't know. This is a huge disadvantage and disservice to the art.

What is the answer?

-Michael

rmcrobertson

12-31-2003, 01:27 AM

One of the jokes I've been making, for a while now, is that all new students ought to be required to watch the pilot episode of, "Kung Fu." There's a problem with that, of course, because one of the disadvantages of kenpo has turned out to be that we do in fact have some guys out there running schools who fantasize that they're the heads of Shaolin.

A similar problem has shown up in Asian religions--Buddhism most obviously, but also others, as they've gotten translated into American. For example, there's this horrible phenomenon that one of my students in English showed me some stuff on last year--"Buddhists," who don't think that they need to meditaate, or give anything up, just be Buddhists--the articles called it, "Buddhism lite." Or, having lived in Boulder during the 70s, there was the ugly phenomenon centered around the founder of Naropa Institute--still going strong after his stupid death, and still apparently offering martial arts classes.

But with the first episode of "Kung Fu," theory, at least folks would get some fantasies about what martial arts training is all about. Sometimes, I think those fantasies are extremely useful...

Thanks for the conversation, Michael.

Touch Of Death

12-31-2003, 02:42 AM

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
One of the jokes I've been making, for a while now, is that all new students ought to be required to watch the pilot episode of, "Kung Fu." There's a problem with that, of course, because one of the disadvantages of kenpo has turned out to be that we do in fact have some guys out there running schools who fantasize that they're the heads of Shaolin.

A similar problem has shown up in Asian religions--Buddhism most obviously, but also others, as they've gotten translated into American. For example, there's this horrible phenomenon that one of my students in English showed me some stuff on last year--"Buddhists," who don't think that they need to meditaate, or give anything up, just be Buddhists--the articles called it, "Buddhism lite." Or, having lived in Boulder during the 70s, there was the ugly phenomenon centered around the founder of Naropa Institute--still going strong after his stupid death, and still apparently offering martial arts classes.

But with the first episode of "Kung Fu," theory, at least folks would get some fantasies about what martial arts training is all about. Sometimes, I think those fantasies are extremely useful...

Thanks for the conversation, Michael.
I think Kenpo schools offer more of this mentality than anyone would like to admit. Get it to a debate with just about anyone and you get to hear... " Once you have taken a class with MASTER So and so, you would understand" The bottom line is is that it is up to the individual to train hard and acheive what they are capable of achieving. Sure, one person may have a gift for inspiring a student or a group of students where others might fail, but students will experience a level of understanding and ability, and not go on to the next level until they have physicaly and mentaly done the work. The true danger, I suppose, is when the trusted master convinces his or her students to ignore the "lesser" methods.
Sean

Michael Billings

12-31-2003, 03:25 AM

... if in fact they are even aware of the "lesser method" ... student or instructor. I think overall, in more than just Kenpo, the myth has progressed so far, or the individual groups (to use an old reference) experience Groupthink, in which it is a self-reinforcing process excluding input from the outside, and operating with the paradigm that "We are doing it right", or "Nobody else can do this the way we do."

This applies to groups primarily, who are somewhat insulated from external reality checks, and is a process oriented problem, similar to ethnocentrism, where the erroneous belief is that "our culture's way is the only one doing this right" (can apply to religion, political structure, a company, or a Martial Arts organization.) It can be manifested in just being unaware that there are other standards and ways of doing things that are culture specific, and we have failed to educate ourselves regarding these "other" ways of doing things.

Gee, do I hear the reverberations of this belief that "our way is the only way" in the hallowed halls of Kenpodom? Yepper, methinks I do!

Question: How many Kenpoist does it take to screw in a light bulb?
Answer: 100 - One to screw in the light bulb, and 99 to say "That’s' not the way Mr. Parker taught me."

Humorous, and it has been posted before, (even by me), but it clearly defines for me the lack of tolerance within our Kenpo Community now, and the unwillingness to consider that there is no one "right way", regardless of your teacher. Sigung LaBounty may do it one way, Sibok Tom Kelly will certainly do it another; Huk may do it a 3rd way; Or Mr. Heebler, or Bob White, Larry Tatum, Mike Pick, James Ibrao, Ron Chapel, Frank Trejo, etc.

Are they "wrong?" No, just different in the times when they were with Mr. Parker and what part of the Art they emphasized, when they learned it, and where they have gone with it since.

Unfortunately one of the big disadvantages of Kenpo (Organizationally) is that we don't play well with others. And when we do, not everyone knows about it. Some include hubud drills, or lock-flow, some emphasize contact manipulation, some train in BJJ (see the AKTS website photos for some if you have not already seen it), I like some of my old TKD kicks, etc. Does that mean we are not "Purist" when it comes to Kenpo? To me, it is all Kenpo (Kenpo being the logical, analytical study of motion, in all dimensions, on any plane.)

:soapbox:
I guess that was about a dollar and fifty cents worth, instead of 2 cents (inflation).

Oss,
-Michael

JD_Nelson

12-31-2003, 05:02 AM

Sieg,

You stated earlier that you were able to produce martial artists that could bang with you. Later you realized that you felt their training may have been lacking.

I think you may actually be on to somthing there. Seriously. You produced people who could bang and be the "warrior" first. Now you suggest you may have errored but did you really???

These indidviduals have the skills to defend themselves. Now if you are teaching them the intracancies of the art, the forms, the sets, etc.... they now can become the scholar if they want to continue.

It sure seems like we have a BUNCH of kenpoists that talk kenpo. Seems everyone wants to be a watchmaker. At this point in my training I want to be the hammer and anvil. I want to try it I want to test it and give my results back to the watchmaker so he can make a better watch. Maybe one of the effects of the overinflated rank in kenpo is the fact that every black belt thinks he is a watchmaker now. Maybe Mr. Parker gave us too much in the process of analyzing this wonderful art. ****, I go through this with my instructor in class. My class time is WAY to valuable to wonder about the proper damn alingment to generate 3lbs more force. I can do that on my own through the tools I already have. THE BASICS!!!!

Sorry to ramble on, and not trying to say one way is correct over the other Sieg, but I would like to be shaped by the anvil and hammer first. Polish can come later for me.

Salute,

JD

MJS

12-31-2003, 12:27 PM

Originally posted by JD_Nelson
Sieg,

You stated earlier that you were able to produce martial artists that could bang with you. Later you realized that you felt their training may have been lacking.

I think you may actually be on to somthing there. Seriously. You produced people who could bang and be the "warrior" first. Now you suggest you may have errored but did you really???

These indidviduals have the skills to defend themselves. Now if you are teaching them the intracancies of the art, the forms, the sets, etc.... they now can become the scholar if they want to continue.

It sure seems like we have a BUNCH of kenpoists that talk kenpo. Seems everyone wants to be a watchmaker. At this point in my training I want to be the hammer and anvil. I want to try it I want to test it and give my results back to the watchmaker so he can make a better watch. Maybe one of the effects of the overinflated rank in kenpo is the fact that every black belt thinks he is a watchmaker now. Maybe Mr. Parker gave us too much in the process of analyzing this wonderful art. ****, I go through this with my instructor in class. My class time is WAY to valuable to wonder about the proper damn alingment to generate 3lbs more force. I can do that on my own through the tools I already have. THE BASICS!!!!

Sorry to ramble on, and not trying to say one way is correct over the other Sieg, but I would like to be shaped by the anvil and hammer first. Polish can come later for me.

Salute,

JD

Very well said!:asian:

Mike

MJS

12-31-2003, 12:31 PM

Originally posted by Michael Billings

[quote]Humorous, and it has been posted before, (even by me), but it clearly defines for me the lack of tolerance within our Kenpo Community now, and the unwillingness to consider that there is no one "right way", regardless of your teacher. Sigung LaBounty may do it one way, Sibok Tom Kelly will certainly do it another; Huk may do it a 3rd way; Or Mr. Heebler, or Bob White, Larry Tatum, Mike Pick, James Ibrao, Ron Chapel, Frank Trejo, etc.

Are they "wrong?" No, just different in the times when they were with Mr. Parker and what part of the Art they emphasized, when they learned it, and where they have gone with it since.

Very true! I have said the same thing many times, but some people still dont get it. They think that just because this is the way their teacher does it, that this is the only way of doing it, and everyone else is wrong. Rather than inquire about the "different way" of doing it, they sit there and bash the hell out of you because you dont do it like them. My question for those people is, "What makes you think that your way is the best way?" Usually I can never get a straight answer. Instead, I get a question answered by another question.

Mike

Goldendragon7

12-31-2003, 01:24 PM

Originally posted by MJS
"What makes you think that your way is the best way?" Usually I can never get a straight answer. Instead, I get a question answered by another question. Mike

Yep, If they can't or won't answer, than that tells you there is little credibility there.

I have a specific way of doing the "Base Way" or "Ideal" techniques for a reason (for 1, it cuts down the confusion for the beginner, and creates a standard "base" as a point of reference from which you can now expand). In fact, I have a reason for everything (I think that is necessary).

Now when we venture into the "what if" arena.... that is a completely different ball game..... NOW you; study, research, try, dabble, investigate, experiment, a multitude of possibilities..... that may all be useful for different reasons.

After all, what is the Equation formula for!

:asian:

rmcrobertson

12-31-2003, 02:17 PM

Of course, there is a difference between being taught to repeat mindlessly forever, and being taught how to train and figure things out.

One point in defense of learning how to get three pounds more pressure out is that it just may help teach you how to figure out improvements, and how to recognize real development when you get there.

JD_Nelson

12-31-2003, 02:37 PM

Of course, there is a difference between being taught to repeat mindlessly forever, and being taught how to train and figure things out.

Watchmaker mentality.

I agree that refinement will be necessary to progress, but I am in it to learn how to defend myself with much proficiency and skill. 3lbs more pressure at a given level may be necessary, may not. I want function over form. I want to be able to punch your nose in then figure out how I did it. and how I may have been able to break it into 3 more pieces. Broken is broken.

And mindlessly???? Come on Mr. Robertson. There is a lot of information that can be derived from the basics at any level in the art. I dont use the basics for the cardio. They are major tools. An extended outward block. How many functions does this have? Strike, brace, block??? What is it that lets this work so well. Can I pull something out of this basic arm positon an apply it to another part of my kenpo. Is the arm positon the same as an inward block. Does the angle do something that I can apply and use elswhere. Is that angle an angle in a stance, any stance? This is just one idea.

I believe this comes with actual training outside of class. Making kenpo something that is your own. Not just using what is written or given to you by an instructor. The instructor is a guide to help you along your journey.

Salute,

JD

rmcrobertson

12-31-2003, 03:36 PM

Please and sorry, but please re-read what I wrote. I didn't say a word against learning basics, or against learning basic power.

A common way the distinction between haammering and finesse gets made is in keeeping what group classes do, and what private lessons do, quite distinct.

But I stand by what I wrote, which was that it is possible to teach in ways that leave students dead-ended down the line.

Thanks for the discussion.

Touch Of Death

12-31-2003, 05:22 PM

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
Please and sorry, but please re-read what I wrote. I didn't say a word against learning basics, or against learning basic power.

A common way the distinction between haammering and finesse gets made is in keeeping what group classes do, and what private lessons do, quite distinct.

But I stand by what I wrote, which was that it is possible to teach in ways that leave students dead-ended down the line.

Thanks for the discussion. I feel that occurs when a student is led to believe he has been taught the end all be all, and refuses further contradictory information. Iv'e got a freind that sounds like Brainy Smurf every time we discuss information that my instructor teaches... " Yeah that's exactly what Tyler says...", when in fact I wouldn't have brought the lesson up if he had actualy understood what I was trying to impart. After the years I am resolved in the fact that this relationship and mentality will never change. I have only met this Tyler person on a few occasions and I wonder how much fault he shares in the predicament. Oh well.
Sean

Brother John

12-31-2003, 05:45 PM

Originally posted by JD_Nelson

It sure seems like we have a BUNCH of kenpoists that talk kenpo. Seems everyone wants to be a watchmaker. At this point in my training I want to be the hammer and anvil. I want to try it I want to test it and give my results back to the watchmaker so he can make a better watch. Salute,
JD
I think I see where you are coming from Jeremy, especially with the wanting to test your skills and abilities.
But how do you think you could test your skills? It's not really ethical to intentionally initiate a fight right? Just wondering what your thoughts are on this.

Also: I know what you are talking about with your desire to 'be the hammer and anvil'. It's a good metaphor. But why do these have to be opposites? There's really two phases to our growth in Kenpo I think.... learning an element of the art and engraining that element through application/practice. The learning is the area for the breaking down of the different elements and qualities that make the motions work their best whereas the application/training is where you take those motions and put them through the wringer of hard work. But the hard work shouldn't negate the studied application of finer points, and the study of the finer points doesn't need to take the place of the 'pounding hammer' hard work. It's just like what the symbols of the 'tiger & dragon' point too, they aren't antithetical... they are cooperative/complimentary.

Here on the internet all you'll ever get is Kenpo talk, therefore it would seem that we are all very technically minded.

You know in the classes I lead I've got a strange balance I've got to strike; both of which are complicated by the fact that I just don't have enough time with my students. Two hours once a week isn't even half the time I wish we had! As I always tell my students, it's in class where you learn...it's on your own where you get gooood. But then again, as you and I have said before "Air-Kenpo" is usually the best we can manage on 'our own'...and that only gets you so far. So in class I have to strike a balance between teaching the form... and coaching the hard work. But I'll still say that the hard work should never negate proper or ideal execution. If your hard work leaves the bounds of good execution/form then I'd be remiss if I didn't correct it. Skill and ability should go hand in hand. You don't attend classes to learn to move hard, but to learn to move hard well. If the effectiveness is gone or is lessoned...then we are wasting our time.
Something to think about.
I look forward to your thoughts.

Your Brother
John

JD_Nelson

12-31-2003, 05:56 PM

dead ended by what perspective??

the student may only wish to know how to defend his/her person, they may not want to become a scholar.

Michael Billings

12-31-2003, 11:46 PM

... but then how do they share their knowledge (if they want to)?

The man who knows how will always be a student, but the man who knows why will continue to be the instructor;

Neophytes often teach the more skilled the existence of undiscovered variables;

The mind leads, the body follows; and

A true martial artist is not one who fears change, but one who causes it to happen.

I guess rather than be a MECHANIC OF MOTION, I am a journeyman learning how to be a MASTER OF MOTION.

There is just so much more to it than self-defense; including discipline, strength of character, obligation, duty, etc. You can use a Krav Maga model, there is nothing wrong with that. You can TAYLOR a self-defense program using Kenpo, there is nothing wrong with that either. Just so long as you:

1. Have the knowledge that, that is what you are doing and teaching (as I do not believe a lot of instructors "know" how complete their version of Kenpo is);

2. Do not misrepresent yourself as teaching more; and

3. Do not leave your students with a false impression regarding their own abilities or level of competency.

Just my thoughts on this.

-Michael

Seig

01-01-2004, 12:13 AM

Something to remember. If, as an innstructor, your abilities and knowledge stagnate, you are not only cheating yourself, but your students as well. At some point, you will have passed on everything that was passed on to you. If you do not continue to improve yourself either as an iron worker or a watch maker, then you may as well give up the arts.

Brother John

01-01-2004, 12:44 AM

Originally posted by Seig
If you do not continue to improve yourself either as an iron worker or a watch maker, then you may as well give up the arts.

Or to have the courage, honesty and integrity to acknowledge this to those faithful students that you have 'maxed out' and help them continue their journey with someone that has more to offer them on their journey.
You may not remain their 'instructor', but they will always call your school's floor 'home' in their hearts!

Your Brother
John

MJS

01-01-2004, 10:58 AM

Originally posted by JD_Nelson
Watchmaker mentality.

I agree that refinement will be necessary to progress, but I am in it to learn how to defend myself with much proficiency and skill. 3lbs more pressure at a given level may be necessary, may not. I want function over form. I want to be able to punch your nose in then figure out how I did it. and how I may have been able to break it into 3 more pieces. Broken is broken.

And mindlessly???? Come on Mr. Robertson. There is a lot of information that can be derived from the basics at any level in the art. I dont use the basics for the cardio. They are major tools. An extended outward block. How many functions does this have? Strike, brace, block??? What is it that lets this work so well. Can I pull something out of this basic arm positon an apply it to another part of my kenpo. Is the arm positon the same as an inward block. Does the angle do something that I can apply and use elswhere. Is that angle an angle in a stance, any stance? This is just one idea.

I believe this comes with actual training outside of class. Making kenpo something that is your own. Not just using what is written or given to you by an instructor. The instructor is a guide to help you along your journey.

Salute,

JD

I agree with both people here. I see where Robert is coming from. Yes, it is important to learn the proper form, but I also agree with JD Nelson; you should not have to wait 5 yrs before you learn how to do something effectively. In other words, take the straight punch. While it appears to be very simple, if not applied correctly, the puncher will most likely hurt themselves. However, it is not a punch that is gonna take, like I said, 5 yrs, for the student to learn how to do it effectively.

I started the arts to learn SD. PERIOD. Sure you get the cardio, weight loss, confidence, etc. from it, but the primary reason was SD. Sure, the more time you put into something, the better you'll be, but within 3 months time, with good instruction, the student should be pretty capable of defending themselves. Call it as Rob said, shake n' bake, but at least I'll know that I can defend myself if needed.

Mike

MJS

01-01-2004, 11:01 AM

Originally posted by Seig
Something to remember. If, as an innstructor, your abilities and knowledge stagnate, you are not only cheating yourself, but your students as well. At some point, you will have passed on everything that was passed on to you. If you do not continue to improve yourself either as an iron worker or a watch maker, then you may as well give up the arts.

Good point! Maybe thats why I always talk about crosstraining.

Mike

rmcrobertson

01-01-2004, 02:44 PM

OK, sure. But it isn't simply a question of learning technical skills that takes time. In many ways, the technical skills--as I assume we all know--are simply a means to another end. That takes time.

And while I appreciate that it isn't just impatience--it's practicality--at play here, I still think that it is the essence of unrealism for nearly everybody in the martial arts to think that after 3 months of average training you should be all good to go....not simply in terms of being able to defend youself against a basic attack or three, but in terms of understanding everything important about the art you're "studying."

I'd be a lot happier to see people looking for a happy medium than issuing blanket statements about throwing this out or that out--sorry, but it reminds me of Daffy Duck fixing a car engine....

I still maintain that such claims have a lot more to do with our shake-n'-bake culture than it has to do with improvements in the martial arts.

JD_Nelson

01-01-2004, 04:31 PM

Michael Billings

01-02-2004, 12:30 AM

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
I'd be a lot happier to see people looking for a happy medium than issuing blanket statements about throwing this out or that out--sorry, but it reminds me of Daffy Duck fixing a car engine....

You "quack" me up!!!

-Michael

MJS

01-02-2004, 01:30 AM

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
[quote]OK, sure. But it isn't simply a question of learning technical skills that takes time. In many ways, the technical skills--as I assume we all know--are simply a means to another end. That takes time.

Of course. The more technical you go, the longer it will take. Agreed.

And while I appreciate that it isn't just impatience--it's practicality--at play here, I still think that it is the essence of unrealism for nearly everybody in the martial arts to think that after 3 months of average training you should be all good to go....not simply in terms of being able to defend youself against a basic attack or three, but in terms of understanding everything important about the art you're "studying."

Let me clarify that statement. I didnt mean that after 3 months, the student will have a 100% understanding of the art, but they should be able to defend themselves.

I'd be a lot happier to see people looking for a happy medium than issuing blanket statements about throwing this out or that out--sorry, but it reminds me of Daffy Duck fixing a car engine....

I'm only speaking for myself here, but I mentioned nothing of throwing anything out. I know in the past I've talked about the katas, fixed stances, etc. but not in this post.

I still maintain that such claims have a lot more to do with our shake-n'-bake culture than it has to do with improvements in the martial arts.

And I still maintain that you dont need or shouldnt have to wait 30yrs before you can finally say, "Wow, I finally mastered this art!" I always refer back to KM. Its an art that teaches you some pretty damn good SD skills in a short amount of time. Again, will you be a master in a short amount of time? Nope. But you'lll be able to defend yourself.

Mike

Michael Billings

01-02-2004, 01:40 AM

I think you are just coming from different perspectives with differnt goals. Maybe the goals are even similar, but the timeframes, and expectations or definition of what mastery is, are where you disagree.

You want quick Self-Defense, get licensed and get a handgun. Krav Maga, OK, if that is what you want. But don't talk to a Kenpo Guy about that being sufficient to defend yourself. After 3 months of anything you may or may not be able to defend yourself (in my opinion, probably NOT), but, and this is a big but, you certainly don't have the seasoning or maturity in the Art to control the level of violence done. You may be able to kill someone (or not), but it would be a huge challenge to modify techniques and graft into a control or contact manipulation.

Heck, just carry a baseball bat if you want JUST to defend yourself ... but the study of Kenpo is much more involved and informative that mere Self-Defense.

I know how this post sounds, and I am not trying to sound like Kenpo is the be all or end all. Rather I am saying it is what it is and not for everyone, as is Krav Maga, Hisdiruit, Shotokan, or TKD. Don't make it more or less than it is.

Doesn't this argument get old guys?

-Michael

Touch Of Death

01-02-2004, 02:29 AM

Originally posted by Michael Billings
I think you are just coming from different perspectives with differnt goals. Maybe the goals are even similar, but the timeframes, and expectations or definition of what mastery is, are where you disagree.

You want quick Self-Defense, get licensed and get a handgun. Krav Maga, OK, if that is what you want. But don't talk to a Kenpo Guy about that being sufficient to defend yourself. After 3 months of anything you may or may not be able to defend yourself (in my opinion, probably NOT), but, and this is a big but, you certainly don't have the seasoning or maturity in the Art to control the level of violence done. You may be able to kill someone (or not), but it would be a huge challenge to modify techniques and graft into a control or contact manipulation.

Heck, just carry a baseball bat if you want JUST to defend yourself ... but the study of Kenpo is much more involved and informative that mere Self-Defense.

I know how this post sounds, and I am not trying to sound like Kenpo is the be all or end all. Rather I am saying it is what it is and not for everyone, as is Krav Maga, Hisdiruit, Shotokan, or TKD. Don't make it more or less than it is.

Doesn't this argument get old guys?

-Michael
I understand Roberts argument but I just feel its more faith based than real. Yes I have a different understanding of what a martial artist should know; however, there are certain attacks that may or may not occur on the street, or in the school he teaches for that matter, that he chooses not to verse himself in. And yes I've heard it before, he doesn't ever plan to meet these people, but lets just say he gave the wrong no neck wrestler a D instead of the expected C. You either A. Know the counters and can exploit the gaps. B. Modify Kenpo and manage an eye poke(which won't be there) and work some neat contact manipulation. Or C. Drop the guy like a sack of potatoes before he knows what hit him. C. is the spirit of any missle attack art and would be the best way provided you were ready. B. may or may not happen depending on the skill and tenacity of your opponent, and A. well unfortunantly for some there is no A. :eek:
Sean

Michael Billings

01-02-2004, 10:56 AM

Believe me, I understand. That is my problem with a lot of "other" styles or systems of Martial Arts, especially the closed ones (where you never go to a tournament outside your own schools.)

It is also applicable to some Kenpo instructors who do not have the grounding in correct applications, or are not flexible enough to work through scenarios like you propose.

I do not think Larry Tatum falls within this classification. He can "Walk the walk", kenpo-wise. I don't really know Robert, except for on-line. But I know his teacher's skill level. Bring on the grappler and I bet dollars to donuts that Mr. Tatum has a "solution" for the fighting situation. In the meantime, when you are around an instructor as well rounded as Robert's is, you see where you will be, and this inspires confidence in your Art and your teacher.

He MAY not be able to do it all, which I have seen him admit in his posts, but he knows kenpo guys who are well rounded and can do it. Hence the disagreement, as this may not be your experience.

Oss,
-Michael

Goldendragon7

01-02-2004, 12:33 PM

This is a Kenpo problem, but also a Martial Arts Problem as well.

When studying a particular instructor.... are they really what you would call an instructor or just a transmitter of material, the same "material" or curriculum as they were shown?

:confused:

Kenpomachine

01-02-2004, 01:50 PM

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
OK, sure. But it isn't simply a question of learning technical skills that takes time. In many ways, the technical skills--as I assume we all know--are simply a means to another end. That takes time.

And while I appreciate that it isn't just impatience--it's practicality--at play here, I still think that it is the essence of unrealism for nearly everybody in the martial arts to think that after 3 months of average training you should be all good to go....not simply in terms of being able to defend youself against a basic attack or three, but in terms of understanding everything important about the art you're "studying."

I can't remember the exact quote or the author, but it goes something like you'll need 40% of time to learn 90% of the material, and 60 % of time to learn the resting 10% of material.

IT means that you learn faster at the beginning, the raw skills/knowledge, but you need a lot more time to learn/polish the material.

It refered originally to languages, but I feel it applies to the other fields of knowledge.

MJS

01-02-2004, 01:58 PM

Sure, I suppose it all comes down to your teacher. Unfortunately, we all can't live in California and have the privilage of training with Larry Tatum or any of the other top guys for that matter. So, you have to take what hand is dealt to you. If your Inst. only went so far, of course, you will only go as far. If its finding a different Kenpo Inst. or doing another art all together, at least you're doing something. At least you're continuing your knowledge, and that IMO, is what really matters.

Mike

rmcrobertson

01-02-2004, 04:01 PM

In the first place, I don't expect to EVER, "master the art."

As for choosing not to verse myself (paraphrase} in this or that, well, I suppose if I get attacked by Dan Severin I'll get both legs handed to me. Oh dear. Good thing that guys like that aren't remotely the problem.

One of the disadvantages of kenpo--and of contemporary martial arts--is indeed unrealism. But it's unrealism about what we're prepared for....that, "on the street," cliche is killing us, if anything is.

Some years back, I saw Chuck Norris on--I think it was early Jay Leno. Leno asked him, "So,whaddya think of movie martial artists today? if you fought Jean-Claude Van Damme or Seagal, those guys, what would happen? Could you beat them?"

Norris said, "Well, I was a professional fighter for years and years."

Leno said, "Well, yeah, but what's your answer?"

Norris said, "That WAS my answer."

There's a moral there for all of us, I think.

howardr

01-02-2004, 04:12 PM

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
In the first place, I don't expect to EVER, "master the art."

As for choosing not to verse myself (paraphrase} in this or that, well, I suppose if I get attacked by Dan Severin I'll get both legs handed to me. Oh dear. Good thing that guys like that aren't remotely the problem.

One of the disadvantages of kenpo--and of contemporary martial arts--is indeed unrealism. But it's unrealism about what we're prepared for....that, "on the street," cliche is killing us, if anything is.

Some years back, I saw Chuck Norris on--I think it was early Jay Leno. Leno asked him, "So,whaddya think of movie martial artists today? if you fought Jean-Claude Van Damme or Seagal, those guys, what would happen? Could you beat them?"

Norris said, "Well, I was a professional fighter for years and years."

Leno said, "Well, yeah, but what's your answer?"

Norris said, "That WAS my answer."

There's a moral there for all of us, I think.

I think you are exactly right. I just don't get why people can't see this. Is it the Superman syndrome?

A decent analogy to your point would be if someone (an average, normal person) expected because they play in a local football club (even assuming some decent contact) a few times a week with their buddies, that they would be capable of taking on even the worst professional football team. They couldn't, and moreoever they shouldn't assume that they need to. The only thing they need to realistically worry about is can they handle a local pickup game with some other non-professionals? The chances that a professional football team will show up at the park and challenge them are about the same chance as winning Powerball - someone's gonna win it somewhere but it ain't gonna be me!

JDenz

01-02-2004, 04:27 PM

biggest disadvantage is listening to you guys argue about it is probley it's biggest disadvantage.

Touch Of Death

01-02-2004, 04:34 PM

Originally posted by JDenz
biggest disadvantage is listening to you guys argue about it is probley it's biggest disadvantage. No one forced you to click on this topic.:shrug:
Sean:)

howardr

01-02-2004, 04:38 PM

I just thought of a related followup to my post.

If someone is interested solely in self-defense then they should probably get a gun or some pepper spray. Maybe they should take a few months of intensive lessons somewhere. Perhaps, Krav Maga or the like.

The fact remains that to get very good at an art like Kenpo, it takes practicing multiple hours a week, week after week, month after month for years. Now, when you weigh the actual likely risk that you will be attacked (the sort of attack that would require hundreds or thousands of hours to defend against), which is typically very slight, versus the amount of time most people spend training in arts like Kenpo, that is not a very rational procedure if your goal is merely strict self-defense. In sum: huge investment of time (thousands of hours of your life) for a scenario that will likely never occur. In almost any other endeavour that would be labeled "insanity."

For instance, say I wanted to learn how to sail a boat for the solitary goal of escaping out of Los Angeles in case of a catastrophic emergency. Yes, I'd spend some weekends, maybe 50 hours learning how to sail. But, would it make sense to go sailing 3 times a week, week after week, for years for the remote chance that I may have to use this skill? Not at all. But, if I love to sail and I get enjoyment out of taming the wind and gliding across the water, etc., then going a few times a week, week after week, completely makes sense.

Therefore, I don't maintain that it is irrational to spend a good portion of your life learning a martial art, IF there are other goals to this lengthy and time laden pursuit other then mere self-defense. If one wishes to learn an ART, and the various benefits that such a goal fosters, then years of devotion may well make sense. It just depends on the goal. And, frankly, I can't see how for strict self-defense such a time investment is rational.

JDenz

01-02-2004, 04:45 PM

What I mean is almost every thread comes down to a fight over diffrent aspects of the same art. I think that if there is this much disagreement in the whole Kempo community, the share of information must not be that good.

Touch Of Death

01-02-2004, 04:53 PM

Originally posted by JDenz
What I mean is almost every thread comes down to a fight over diffrent aspects of the same art. I think that if there is this much disagreement in the whole Kempo community, the share of information must not be that good.
It isn't, but we all have our reasons. When Huk Planas went and said in Black belt Magazine that Mr. Parker gave most of his black belts "the runaround" and only taught a few the "real" art, camps start to form. What's there to talk about?
Sean

Goldendragon7

01-02-2004, 06:54 PM

Orig posted by rmcrobertson
I don't expect to EVER, "master the art."

Nor should anyone else.

Orig posted by rmcrobertson
One of the disadvantages of Kenpo--and of contemporary martial arts--is indeed unrealism. But it's unrealism about what we're prepared for....that, "on the street," cliche is killing us, if anything is.

I don't think that unrealism is really a good term to use.

I think of the age of Sparta.... where there were many a soldier that could wield a sword, yet some didn't make it past the first few seconds of battle where as, others went on to become true warriors.

I think the problem today is..... there is NO REAL BATTLEFIELD to TEST what we learn!!

We are warriors that have no battle to go to. So, many become "legends in their own minds". :)

Tournaments do help a bit but yet not the end all by any means. Besides, the reasons for taking any of the martial arts are quite varied by the individual. Many do make great accomplishments within themselves regardless of their fighting abilities.

All in what the individual is after. The problem I have is when, all these paper tigers (which usually have big mouths) want to be recognized equally with those that HAVE been to the mountain.

:asian:

Goldendragon7

01-02-2004, 07:02 PM

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
Huk Planas went and said in Black belt Magazine that Mr. Parker gave most of his black belts "the runaround" and only taught a few the "real" art.

Yes, that was an unfortunate statement.
:(

Michael Billings

01-02-2004, 07:05 PM

Bravo, well stated!

-Michael

Rich Parsons

01-03-2004, 01:20 AM

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
Yes, that was an unfortunate statement.
:(

Was it an actual statement? When was it made? Or was it a praphrase by an editor?

I could see anyone making this comment, I am not trying to defend nor attack anyone. Just curious is all.

Thank You
:asian:

MJS

01-03-2004, 01:36 AM

Originally posted by howardr
I just thought of a related followup to my post.

[quote]If someone is interested solely in self-defense then they should probably get a gun or some pepper spray. Maybe they should take a few months of intensive lessons somewhere. Perhaps, Krav Maga or the like.

Is a gun the answer to every problem though? Chances are, pulling a gun, will probably get you into more trouble than you were originally in.

The fact remains that to get very good at an art like Kenpo, it takes practicing multiple hours a week, week after week, month after month for years. Now, when you weigh the actual likely risk that you will be attacked (the sort of attack that would require hundreds or thousands of hours to defend against), which is typically very slight, versus the amount of time most people spend training in arts like Kenpo, that is not a very rational procedure if your goal is merely strict self-defense. In sum: huge investment of time (thousands of hours of your life) for a scenario that will likely never occur. In almost any other endeavour that would be labeled "insanity."

How can anyone predict how they will be attacked?? Sure, there is no way you can be 100% prepared for everything, but how will you know if you'll ever be mugged at gun/knife point, carjacked, etc?

Therefore, I don't maintain that it is irrational to spend a good portion of your life learning a martial art, IF there are other goals to this lengthy and time laden pursuit other then mere self-defense. If one wishes to learn an ART, and the various benefits that such a goal fosters, then years of devotion may well make sense. It just depends on the goal. And, frankly, I can't see how for strict self-defense such a time investment is rational.

True.

Mike

Goldendragon7

01-03-2004, 01:37 AM

Orig posted by Rich Parsons
Was it an actual statement? When was it made? Or was it a praphrase by an editor?

I could see anyone making this comment, I am not trying to defend nor attack anyone. Just curious is all. Thank You :asian:

From an earlier post........

Orig posted by Touch O' Death
When Huk Planas went and said in Black belt Magazine that Mr. Parker gave most of his black
belts "the runaround" and only taught a few the "real" art. Sean

that help?

:asian:

Rich Parsons

01-03-2004, 01:57 AM

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
From an earlier post........

that help?

:asian:

DC,

I was actually asking about issue and date of the intereview and such. Was it 1995 or 2003 or ??? Just curious if this was recent or not.

Sorry for the confusion.

Goldendragon7

01-03-2004, 02:24 AM

Orig posted by Rich Parsons
I was actually asking about issue and date of the intereview and such. Was it 1995 or 2003 or ??? Just curious if this was recent or not.

As to the BB issue.... I don't remember ... You'd have to ask TOD.... but I have heard him make the same reference personally or in seminars within the last 2 years.

:(

Rich Parsons

01-03-2004, 02:31 AM

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
As to the BB issue.... I don't remember ... You'd have to ask TOD.... but I have heard him make the same reference personally or in seminars within the last 2 years.

:(

Thank You

Touch Of Death

01-03-2004, 04:42 AM

Originally posted by Rich Parsons
Thank You I think I read the article in 93, I could be wrong. What Mr. Planas should have said was that few BBs were at a level to understand as Mr. Parker understood. That would have been a pretty benine and provable statment; however, he went with the "runaround" comment which I'm sure was meant to gather students in the "scattering", but ended up like saying Ed Parker enjoyed lying to people for the fun of it. Pehaps Mr. Planas is not the politician Mr. Parker was, and I have no doubt he is one of those that grasp the art in its entirety; however, he just implied everyones instructor sucks. I asked my instructor about the article and he explained what was up. Ed Parker would teach the same concept at what ever level the student he was dealing with at the time was, be it orange belt or Black belt. This is why every Tom, Dick, and Harry has a different version of the same concept. Think of Kenpo as if it were math and it becomes easier to grasp. And think of it, every Black Belt of Mr. Parker's is a specialist in some aspect. Black Belts would present him with a thesis, Mr. Parker would look at Kenpo through that filter and offer his take and of course a suggestion or two. Not every one is a genius either, and some people will just never reach the level that others have. In Mr. Planas' favor, Ed Parker would teach a concept to some and come back a year or two later and find that they failed to grasp the idea, I'm sure this caused him some frustration; because, how can he help them reach the next level without forcing them to go back and deal with the info already provided? My point is that No BlackBelt did not paraphrase and yes Mr. Planas has a point, but he didn't help the situation.
Sean