Kajukenbo politics (Long)

[Matt]

I don't really want to start this thread, but I think I need to. A friend of mine has been plagued by someone in the kajukenbo community who has an axe to grind with him personally. This person emails schools that host my friend (Professor Kimo Ferreira) and provides them with inaccurate disparaging information to try and convince them to drop their association with him. It has sunk to a new low, as the email now includes the names of prominent Kajukenbo individuals as 'references' that would verify the claims.

Kimo has asked me to post this so that the people mentioned as references can see their names being hijacked and step in to reclaim their names from someone putting words in their mouth to further someones political agenda.

Here's the post as it was rejected from the 'Kajukenbo Cafe'


I received this letter today regarding Professor Feliciano 'Kimo' Ferreira. I contacted Kimo, and am posting the entire contents with his permission. Although it seems in poor taste to air dirty laundry in a public forum, the letter implicates many senior kajukenbo practitioners in slandering him, and I would like to let people stand by or refute their words. Kimo has told me that Dechi has also approved this, and that she has indicated that people who wish to resolve any disputes with him should do so through official association channels, and not by e-mailing this to people who host seminars with Professor Ferreira. I am typing the letter verbatim, all spelling and grammar errors are intentional to replicate the original spellings.



1. Receive black belt from Professor Martin Buell, Universal Kempo in the 1970's.
Ref: Kimo & Grandmaster Edmund Louis & Martin Buell.

2. Trained with Grandmaster Edmund Louis (1980's) for two years and had his own class at Lehua Elementary School. Did not known all Edmund Louis techniques, did not get promoted, and was told to leave (kicked out) because Kimo wanted to do what he wanted to do, and some of his students had bad attitudes. Kimo wanted to return, but GM Louis refused. Ref: Grandmaster Edmund Louis

3. Open a school under Professor Walter Godin in the Honolulu Area. Grandmaster Edmund Louis and his wife attended. Professor Godin presented Kimo with a certificate (unknown rank), signed by GM Louis. Ref: Grandmaster Edmund Louis.

4. Promoted to 5th degree by Professor Godin at Palama Settlement in November 1995. Ref: Kimo

5. Promoted by Joe Silva to 6th degree under Grandmaster Joe Holck's (Co-Founder of Kajukenbo) ,Kodenhkan Yudamshakai Hombu. Joe Silva Demoted Kimo, unknown reason. Grandmaster Holck and his son, Professor Holck does not know Kimo. Ref: Professor Jaime Abregana

6. Promoted to 6th degree by Grandmaster Jamie Basquez in the Kajukenbo Self Defense System in 1996. Certificate was signed by Grandmaster Tony Troche and Master Mike Young. Ref: Mike Young, Tony Troche, and Jamie Abregana.

7. Recognized 7th degree in Kajukenbo by unknown author. Practitioners singed Kimo's certificate, Eric Lee, Ming Lum, Bob Mashmier, Kalani Briffin and Emil Bautista. Ref: Kimo

8. Kimo attended Martial Arts Collective Society on the island of Kauai (1999). Kimo had a certificate written in Japanese and had Tony Troche, Bing Fai Lau, Ming Lum, Jamie Basquez, Mike Young affixed their signatures. It was later learned that the certivicate was allegedly a 10th degree certificate. Ref: Mike Young, Tony Troche and Jamie Abrigana.

9. Purported to be the adopted son of Bing Fai Lau and may have con Professor Lau in obtaining an unknown rank. Ref: Mike Young

10. Claim to have trained with Solomon Kaihewaiu in the Hawaiian art of "Lua"

(next few lines inexplicably blank)

demonstrating techniques at her dojo. The student had a broken nose. Tony questioned the student and he confirmed what had taken placed. Kimo is barred from Sensei Fujitani dojo. Ref: Tony Troche

12. The following are organizations that Kimo was told to leave and/ or is unable to gain membership: A. Hawaii Martial Arts International Society (Professor Jamie Abregana); B. World Head Of Family Sokeship (Grandmaster Frank Sanchez); C. Kilohana (Professor Coelo); D. Goshin Jitsu Chow-Hoon; (Professor James Muro) and American Teachers Association of Martial Arts(Tony Troche & Rick Alemany)

13. Kimo Admitted to Grandmaster Max Togisala that he gave Dechi Emperado money. Now believed to be $2000. This conversation took place at the Sahara Hotel in Las Vegas on July 11, 2003. In addition this was told to Tony Troche, Edmund Louis and Jamie Abregana. GM Ted Sotelo told Mike Young that he was promoting Kimo to Professor 8th degree as a favor for Dechi. Kimo was escorted out the Hawaii Martial Arts International Society Tournament at the Sahara Hotel, Las Vegas , on July 13, 2003. Ref: Max Togisala, Jamie Abregana and Gerry Scott.

14. He asked the late John Chun Hoon's wife Pauline to promote him. Ref: Mike Young

15. Kimo said derogatory remarks about the mayor of Honolulu at a dinner, celebrating Chinese's New Year. The governor and his wife were present also. Kimo was banned from participating in any Chinese New Year parade and/or any event. Ref: Mike Young, Tony Troche and Jamie Abregana

16. Kimo does not have enough training time or experience in the Kajukenbo system to be honor to wear a 8th degree, Professor belt. He does not know the requirements for a 1st degree black belt. Ref: Tony Troche, Mike Young, Alfred Dela Cruz, Nelson New, Gerry Scott, Bobby New, Ray Sarabano, Henry Mandac, Sixto Ramos, Clarence Luna Emperado, and Mike Samala, Rick Alemany, Ron Capito and Maurice Hornos.

17. Asked Tony Troche to show him the Naihanchi Katas. Kimo was no busy during his class and Tony showed one of his assistant the katas. Tony did not return to Kimo's dojo.

[CoolKempoDude]

Mod,

please keep this thread ALIVE. I would like to know what is happening.

it would be nice to hear what BOTH sides have to say. FAIR and BALANCED specially from high ranking kajukenbo people

it's very interesting indeed.

thank you

[Touch Of Death]

This has nothing to do with the subject but Kimo was my instructor in Radcliff Kentucky. I was the annoying Kenpo guy with the accelerated heel kick escape. Please tell him I said hi. I've been meaning to contact him but I haven't yet. Thank you.
Sean Wold

[Touch Of Death]

Just a continuation,
I was a purple belt when I met Kimo and I swear the tactics that he taught me have worked for me in more than a few street fights. I learned two Hawaiian words "empay" and "Bolas". What do you call that bad ass uppercut thing I always seem to be able to pull off on unsuspecting Kenpo guys any way?
Sean

[CoolKempoDude]

Matt,

if you have any updated news about this professor, please let us know.

we hope the truth will prevail.

thanks.

[Matt]

Originally posted by CoolKempoDude
Matt,

if you have any updated news about this professor, please let us know.

we hope the truth will prevail.

thanks.

I do have more information, and of course, I have plenty of opinions, but I was hoping some of the people mentioned would step up and offer their words, and didn't want to come off as a shill.

I've got a bias towards Kimo's side of the story; I've been working with him for a couple of years and he's always been very reasonable. I've seen him teach, I've punched in for him when we hosted his seminar. It was great, and we're hosting him again.

Whatever I might say could be attacked as 'biased', so I thought I'd wait.

Thanks for sticking with the thread.
Matt Barnes

[Matt]

It seems strange to quote myself (although I'm actually quoting the email sent anonymously, of course) but since nobody has spoken up I will start to poke a hole or two in the ridiculous message. I'll start with 3 and 4 and work my way down. #1 is pretty accurate, as far as #2 goes, I know the first part is right (taught for Ed Louis for a couple years) but I don't know much about any details.


Originally posted by Matt
3. Open a school under Professor Walter Godin in the Honolulu Area. Grandmaster Edmund Louis and his wife attended. Professor Godin presented Kimo with a certificate (unknown rank), signed by GM Louis. Ref: Grandmaster Edmund Louis.

I don't know much about Ed Louis; just that he runs Leeward Kempo. Apparently the (anonymous) person who sent it seems to think that Ed Louis is a moron, who would sign a rank certificate to promote someone that he suppposedly kicked out of his organization, without even having the sense to look at the certificate to see what rank it was. Apparently besides an attempt to discredit Kimo, this is an attempt to make Ed Louis look like a fool. I doubt that Ed Louis did something like of this nature. I've seen his website, and he seems more intelligent than that.


Originally posted by Matt
4. Promoted to 5th degree by Professor Godin at Palama Settlement in November 1995. Ref: Kimo


Well, I suppose you could also use the 2002 Summer issue of Fighting Arts Hawaii, No.3, page 14 where the picture at the top right shows (according to the caption) "Kimo Ferreira (kneeling) receives his 5th degree from Professor Godin (right) while chief instructor Kevin Coleman (middle Left) and Joe Sylva (right) look on. Taken at Palama Settlement Gym in November 1995. "

Yep, there's a big mystery.

Matt

[Karazenpo]

Politics are not only in Kajukenbo but in all other arts and all aspects of life. Tell me about it, I've been in law enforcement for nearly three decades if anyone wants to talk about politics, lol. Just ask the EPAK people on this forum about the politics after Mr. Parker passed away or even before that! My solution is you can't let it get to you or dwell on it too much-it just burns you out! And no one, I mean no one will ever stop it. it's part of life that went on long before we were born and will go on long after we are gone. Do I like it , of course not, but I accept it as part of the human condition. I was once told you can't get upset over things you have no control over. There is one thing I have learned, though, and I've learned this not so much from the martial arts but as a police officer. To give it attention, gives it life and no matter how much you rebutt it and prove yourself, people go away with that seed planted in the back of their minds, some will believe the stories, other will not and eventually it is told as the truth and a myth is born. Remember, attention gives it life. Let it die instead. Sometimes, discretion is the better part of valour. I don't want to state any opinion other than that because I may be construed also like Matt stated as having bias for I know Professor Ferrierra and Hanshi Craig Seavey, co-head of NCK (whom I made my original Black Belt from) has hosted his seminars along with Shihan John James also of Nick Cerio's Kenpo and my instructor whom I made my last rank from, Grandmaster S. George Pesare is planning to put on seminars with 'Kimo" in 2004. Enough said. Respectfully submitted.

[Matt]

Originally posted by Karazenpo
Remember, attention gives it life. Let it die instead. Sometimes, discretion is the better part of valour. I don't want to state any opinion other than that because I may be construed also like Matt stated as having bias for I know Professor Ferrierra and Hanshi Craig Seavey, co-head of NCK (whom I made my original Black Belt from) has hosted his seminars along with Shihan John James also of Nick Cerio's Kenpo and my instructor whom I made my last rank from, Grandmaster S. George Pesare is planning to put on seminars with 'Kimo" in 2004. Enough said. Respectfully submitted.

Shihan Joe-
Thanks for the thoughts, and I agree in some part. However, this isn't just run of the mill bad mouthing. This is a cowardly, 'anonymous' email sent to the Nick Cerio organization to 'poison the well'. I'm sure it doesn't mean much as Hanshi Seavey is an experienced practitioner, who has hosted Kimo on a couple occasions, has seen him train, and is intelligent enough not to be swayed by an anonymous coward with an obvious axe to grind, but instead will use his own good judgement. I also feel that the email puts the into question the integrity of many seniors in the kajukenbo community who I feel are having mud slung on them just to discredit Kimo.

As an aside, think of it this way. How would you feel if someone emailed false damaging things about your police record (which I know is spotless) to any people with whom you were scheduled to do law enforcement related seminars. That's not just crappy, it's libel.

Matt

[Shiatsu]

As Shian Joe said, let a dead dog lie. I joined up Kajukembo because of the lack of politics. I'm not saying that there is none, just less than most other arts. I imagine that it will probably be worse when Sijo passes on, however I will still be studying, and still not caring much about the politics. I enjoy where I train and who I train with. Leave the politics to the politicians. I am in the military if you ever really want to talk politics.:asian:

[Karazenpo]

Well, you see, Matt, that's part of my stand on this issue. People are always making allegations against police officers, some are true but many are false and its easy to figure it out because they usually have a hidden agenda- either they- themselves, a family member or a friend was arrested and now it's pay back time to the cops who did it. I have learned to just get' thick- skinned' over it. Back in the mid 80's I walked into an armed robbery of a drug store with hostages, not to get into detail because it still bothers me, but I shot the suspect, he survived. No lawsuits, no repercussions. He left me no choice at the time and even he admitted it in court. One of the selectmen in my town was my high school classmate. He told me the towns people called with overwelhming support for me, however, a few called to complain, to paraphrase, I should have backed off and let him go! So, go figure! Stuff like this has happened to me along with everyone else in law enforcement and there are many more false allegations I'm privy to that makes that one small potatoes! Take every single icon in the martial arts, I don't care who you pick, what system or how long ago and you'll hear some bullsh-t about them. And Matt, if you want to talk about unsigned complaints to the Chief, Board of Selectman or City Council about cops we could fill several Encyclopedia sets and then some. We had a retired police Lt. in charge of Internal Affairs. Once I was in his officer having coffee and he tosses over a letter, an unsigned complaint against one of my fellow officers. I read it then he took it back, looked at me and said,"here's where I file unsigned complaints" and he promptly threw it in the waste paper basket-you know, the 'circular file', lol. Wise man-I thought.

[John Bishop]

I can honestly say that I don't know who the original author of this email is, but I know several of the people who are listed in it. There are at least 29 senior members of the Hawaiian martial arts community (Karate, Kung Fu, Kajukenbo, Kenpo, jujitsu, etc.) listed in the letter.
So Matt, have you talked with these people to see if their references are true? Or are you just taking the word of one person?
I'm sure no one here on this forum will be able to speak for all these gentlemen.
Simple solution. If you want to check the accuracy of the statements attributed to these individuals, ask them in person. Most of them are not on the internet, but their mailing addresses or phone numbers would probably be somewhat simple to find.

[Shiatsu]

Well said Sigung Bishop:asian:

[Matt]

Originally posted by John Bishop
I can honestly say that I don't know who the original author of this email is, but I know several of the people who are listed in it. There are at least 29 senior members of the Hawaiian martial arts community (Karate, Kung Fu, Kajukenbo, Kenpo, jujitsu, etc.) listed in the letter.
So Matt, have you talked with these people to see if their references are true? Or are you just taking the word of one person?
I'm sure no one here on this forum will be able to speak for all these gentlemen.
Simple solution. If you want to check the accuracy of the statements attributed to these individuals, ask them in person. Most of them are not on the internet, but their mailing addresses or phone numbers would probably be somewhat simple to find.

You raise a valid point. After poking holes in the obviously incorrect items, I do plan on getting first hand word from as many of the folks named as possible. I am in the process of assembling the mailing list. I'll keep the group posted if/when I get any results. Care to email me any contact info to speed things along Sigung Bishop?

Thanks,
Matt

[Shiatsu]

Some of the e-mails and such could be found at kajukenbocafe.com. However don't post these types of things there. It is a very friendly board, and this type of thing and rude behavior would not be looked well upon.

[CoolKempoDude]

Matt,

what happen to 5-17???

you will tell us another side of 5-17??? we look forward to seeing that.

thanks

good luck.

[John Bishop]

Matt, some of these people can be found on the web. Some may be found on the school listings at www.kajukenbo.org.
Email me a list of the ones you can't find and I'll see what I can do. If you approach these old timers respectfully, they will probably talk to you without a introduction. But keep a open mind, because you might not like what you hear from some of them. But you got to get all the pieces to make sense of the puzzle.
One of the non-Kajukenbo guys I can think of off the top of my head is Sol Kaihewalu. You can contact him thru his website www.olohe.com

[CoolKempoDude]

Matt,

please let us know how everything goes after talking to these *reference* people.

we look forward to seeing your posts soon.

it seems to me that you have a mission to complete. It won't be easy BUT you will share with us what you know RIGHT? ;)

good luck.

thank you

[Matt]

Originally posted by CoolKempoDude
Matt,

what happen to 5-17???

you will tell us another side of 5-17??? we look forward to seeing that.

thanks

good luck.

Sorry it's taking so long, but I have a really tight schedule, so I can only post intermittently.

I'll try to crank out a few more answers, but some of these things will require consulting the named parties, and that will take some time. If there are logical errors, I'll hop on those right off though.


5. Promoted by Joe Silva to 6th degree under Grandmaster Joe Holck's (Co-Founder of Kajukenbo) ,Kodenhkan Yudamshakai Hombu. Joe Silva Demoted Kimo, unknown reason. Grandmaster Holck and his son, Professor Holck does not know Kimo. Ref: Professor Jaime Abregana


I can find no record of this anywhere , and Kimo has never mentioned it to me, so I can't offer any information. Wouldn't that be a jujutsu 6th dan? I will try to contact Professor Abregana to see if he can shed some light.



6. Promoted to 6th degree by Grandmaster Jamie Basquez in the Kajukenbo Self Defense System in 1996. Certificate was signed by Grandmaster Tony Troche and Master Mike Young. Ref: Mike Young, Tony Troche, and Jamie Abregana.

According to Kimo, he is completely unaware of this.



7. Recognized 7th degree in Kajukenbo by unknown author. Practitioners singed Kimo's certificate, Eric Lee, Ming Lum, Bob Mashmier, Kalani Briffin and Emil Bautista. Ref: Kimo


I'm going to take a wild guess that 'Kalani Briffin' is a really bad misspelling of Grandmaster Kalaii Griffin's name. I will be getting in touch with him shortly for other reasons, so hopefully he can shed some light on this. Grandmaster Bautista has been kind enough to contact me already, I'm sure he'll help clear this one up.

So, I don't have much to offer on these so far. I'll get back when I have more information.


Matt

[Matt]

Originally posted by Matt
Sorry it's taking so long, but I have a really tight schedule, so I can only post intermittently.


Matt



8. Kimo attended Martial Arts Collective Society on the island of Kauai (1999). Kimo had a certificate written in Japanese and had Tony Troche, Bing Fai Lau, Ming Lum, Jamie Basquez, Mike Young affixed their signatures. It was later learned that the certivicate was allegedly a 10th degree certificate. Ref: Mike Young, Tony Troche and Jamie Abrigana.


I think of this along the lines of the slap at GM Ed Louis. We are expected to believe that Tony Troche, Bing Fai Lau, Ming Lum, Jamie Basquez, and Mike Young - all senior martial artists - were all suddenly struck with a simultaneous lapse in common sense that they signed a document that they couldn't read? No one asked? The implication that all of these people are like trained monkeys that will sign anything handed to them is beyond insulting. No wonder the loser who wrote this was ashamed to attach his name. (sorry, I get pretty ticked when someone is so eager to sling mud that they don't mind dousing a collection of Senior Martial artists in the process) Tony Troche (I don't know him, but have read his bio at the Hawaiian Martial Arts Society) has been training in Japanese arts for 60+ years and he wouldn't be able to pick out the characters for Ju-dan? Ridiculous. I'll ask Kimo to produce the Certificate, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't exist.


9. Purported to be the adopted son of Bing Fai Lau and may have con Professor Lau in obtaining an unknown rank. Ref: Mike Young


Kimo spoke very highly of Bing Fai Lau, but I don't remember him ever implying any adopted relationship with him. I asked him point blank today, and he said that Bing Fai Lau never promoted him. He (Bing Fai Lau) did however sign some of the certificates for Kimo's Black Belts - as in those of some of Kimo's students.


10. Claim to have trained with Solomon Kaihewaiu in the Hawaiian art of "Lua"

Sigung Bishop has been kind enough to give me his address, so I'll be getting in touch with him a.s.a.p.
However, Kimo has mentioned learning 'bits and pieces' of lua, and that he has incorporated some of the concepts into some of his techniques. The name Solomon Kaihewaiu does not ring a bell. If I recall correctly, Kimo had said he learned the 'bits of lua' from Walter Godin. I will ask Kimo for a definitive answer.

Okay, a few more, but not really definitive answers.

Matt

[rmcrobertson]

These discussions, I know, can be maddening--everybody trots out their endless sets of facts and counterfacts, and there's no way to disentangle a damn thing with having all the documents and testimonies in front of you.

But one positive benefit--it's good to know that SOMEBODY in other martial arts is as silly as those of us in kenpo.

[CoolKempoDude]

Matt,

you are making a good progress. 7 more to go + everything you find from "reference" people.

we look forward to. Keep up the good work. Please share with us ALL.

thanks

good luck.

[Matt]

Originally posted by John Bishop
Matt, some of these people can be found on the web. Some may be found on the school listings at www.kajukenbo.org.
Email me a list of the ones you can't find and I'll see what I can do. If you approach these old timers respectfully, they will probably talk to you without a introduction. But keep a open mind, because you might not like what you hear from some of them. But you got to get all the pieces to make sense of the puzzle.
One of the non-Kajukenbo guys I can think of off the top of my head is Sol Kaihewalu. You can contact him thru his website www.olohe.com

Thank you - I only have moments here and there to work on this -work, family, teaching, training, maintaining my instructor's website, etc. take up most of my time. I will follow up on these, and I will show these folks respect. One of the reasons behind starting the thread was to provide the opportunity for some of the seniors who have been made to look foolish by some of the more absurd claims in the email to clear (or have cleared for them) their names.


"The Only Thing Neccessary for Evil to Prevail, is for Good Men to Do Nothing" Edmond Burke

That's why I'm digging into this.
;)
Matt

[Matt]

Originally posted by CoolKempoDude
Matt,

you are making a good progress. 7 more to go + everything you find from "reference" people.

we look forward to. Keep up the good work. Please share with us ALL.

thanks

good luck.


Thank you. I'm trying to start with logic, to weed out the stupid claims. After that, a dose of factual information from the references will go a long way, I'm sure.

This next quote seems easy to dismiss out of hand.



13. Kimo Admitted to Grandmaster Max Togisala that he gave Dechi Emperado money. Now believed to be $2000. This conversation took place at the Sahara Hotel in Las Vegas on July 11, 2003. In addition this was told to Tony Troche, Edmund Louis and Jamie Abregana. GM Ted Sotelo told Mike Young that he was promoting Kimo to Professor 8th degree as a favor for Dechi. Kimo was escorted out the Hawaii Martial Arts International Society Tournament at the Sahara Hotel, Las Vegas , on July 13, 2003. Ref: Max Togisala, Jamie Abregana and Gerry Scott.


There are so many wrong things implied by this, I'm going to have to make a list:
1.)This implies that Dechi Emperado takes bribes to promote people. I'm sure Sigung Bishop can confirm that this is not the case. Who would destroy Dechi's reputation just to sully Kimo's.

2.)On the Kajukenbo Cafe, Joe Solis, Sergeant at arms for Ted Sotelo stated, unequivocably that there was no fee for Kimo's promotion.

3.) This implies that Ted Sotelo hands out professorships as 'favors'

4.) hey, at $2,000 for a professorship, why don't I hold a bake sale and get myself one.

*True Item* Right after Kimo returned from the Vegas trip. He was a bit surprised that when he went to support the Hawaii Martial Arts International Society Tournament at the Sahara Hotel, Las Vegas , on July 13, 2003 he *was in fact* escorted out of the tournament immediately upon his entrance. When he asked why, he was told by the security that he was
specifically named by the promoter Jaime Abregana as unwelcome. He had no idea of this in advance, but left quietly as not to cause trouble. This is exactly what Kimo told me right after the trip, nearly four months ago, well before this email came out.

[John Bishop]

Matt:
Like I said:

Originally posted by John Bishop
But keep a open mind, because you might not like what you hear from some of them. But you got to get all the pieces to make sense of the puzzle.


You've known Kimo for 2 years. Some of these Masters have known him for 30 years. Your 6000 miles away from his home, they live there 365 days a year.

Good or bad I hope you find your answers.

[CoolKempoDude]

Matt,

of course, do not forget to share with us what you find out from these *reference* people.

Good or Bad. we love to hear from you. You will share us the *truth* . It is important.

good luck . thank you

[Matt]

Originally posted by John Bishop
Matt:
You've known Kimo for 2 years. Some of these Masters have known him for 30 years. Your 6000 miles away from his home, they live there 365 days a year.

Good or bad I hope you find your answers.

Now before anyone gets any funny ideas, I want to state for the record:

John Bishop is a knowledgeable and respected Kajukenbo practitioner. He's not being a wise-guy. I think he is however trying to make sure I don't drive myself off a cliff in a misguided attempt to dispell every rumor, even ones that might have merit.

I think he also understands that some times, I just have to find out for myself. Facts don't scare me.

I respect that, and him.

I also feel the need to mention as a disclosure, that I am a member of Kimo's organization (as an individual, not anyone with position, etc. )and that my promotion to 4th degree black belt was by him back in September. Take anything I may offer with that in mind, but I will attempt to stick to facts and logic to avoid possible bias.

Thank you,
Matt

[Shiatsu]

No one thinks you are a bad guy. Hell curiousity killed the cat. I myself am in kaju and always asking questions. As Sigung Bishop stated, I think if you tread lightly and are extrtememly professional about it, you may get some of the old school guys to talk, then again you may not.

I appreciate the fact that you have remained tasteful in all of this.:asian:

[CoolKempoDude]

Matt,

how is your research ???? I hope we don't have to wait this *long* to know something about your professor;)

"justice delays, justice denies";)

[Matt]

Originally posted by CoolKempoDude
Matt,

how is your research ???? I hope we don't have to wait this *long* to know something about your professor;)

"justice delays, justice denies";)

Thanks for your maintained interest.

I've begun some dialog with a few folks more senior than I, but don't really have much concrete info yet.

I've made a list of who to contact and what I'm going to ask, and am compiling the contact info.

I apologize for the slow progress, but, I can only work on this during free time like when my daughter (age 2 ) is napping.
This is also when I am not:
Working full time (plus),
Taking care of my two year old while my wife works full time.
Teaching at my friend's kempo school.
Teaching Tai Chi for the town next door.
Teaching Tai Chi privately.
Designing and maintaining two (soon three) websites for martial arts friends.
Eating.
Even occasionally sleeping.

I promise, I am making progress, one nap at a time.
:shrug:

Matt

[Matt]

Originally posted by CoolKempoDude
Matt,

how is your research ???? I hope we don't have to wait this *long* to know something about your professor;)

"justice delays, justice denies";)

I've gotten a response from Grand Master Bob Maschmeier. He is named (misspelled by the anonymous author) in item #7. GM Maschmeier was very gracious, and very forthright.



7. Recognized 7th degree in Kajukenbo by unknown author. Practitioners singed Kimo's certificate, Eric Lee, Ming Lum, Bob Mashmier, Kalani Briffin and Emil Bautista. Ref: Kimo

The mystery of the 'unknown author' of the recognition is solved:

Grand Master Bob Maschmeier.

I don't want to misstate his intentions, so I will quote him exactly word for word. In reference to the recognition:


I do not promote anyone who is not in my organization. I do recognize and
support those individuals that I find to be capable and respectful martial
artists. Kimo falls into the latter catagory.

Apparently this was a recognition, an honor, and the situation is pretty much exactly as stated in the email.

Matt

[Matt]

Originally posted by Matt
15. Kimo said derogatory remarks about the mayor of Honolulu at a dinner, celebrating Chinese's New Year. The governor and his wife were present also. Kimo was banned from participating in any Chinese New Year parade and/or any event. Ref: Mike Young, Tony Troche and Jamie Abregana


Funny story. I asked Kimo about this one, and He is absolutely sure he didn't say anything to the mayor. It was to the governor.

When he (the governor, a democrat)was making the rounds, glad-handing the crowd, Kimo said 'don't be coming to this table to shake hands, we're republicans.'

I guess that was the 'derogatory remarks'. Guillty as charged, except that the 'banned from chinese new year stuff' is a complete work of fiction. Kimo was invited, but declined to participate in this year's parade.

If whoever contributed this little gem was paying attention, I think that annoying a governor is much more of an attention grabber than annoying a mayor.

Matt

[CoolKempoDude]

Matt,

keep up the good work and let us know what you find out. Make sure you don't skip the rest of questions;)

[Matt]

Originally posted by Matt
Guillty as charged, except that the 'banned from chinese new year stuff' is a complete work of fiction. Kimo was invited, but declined to participate in this year's parade.


The above comment related to last year's event. (jan 2003)

In my hand (Well, actually in front of me on my desk. If it was in my hand, I'd have trouble typing...) I have a faxed copy of the letter from Paul Chun, Entertainment Coordinator for the annual "Night in Chinatown" Festival and Parade, to Kimo, dated November 18, 2003. This is an invitation to participate, complete with the forms necessary.

I may post this up on the web. I have to get my scanner working again.

Matt

[CoolKempoDude]

Originally posted by Matt


I may post this up on the web. I have to get my scanner working again.

Matt

if you or your friend have digital camera, you can use that and transfer the picture to PC.

what is wrong with your scanner ???
:)

[Matt]

Originally posted by CoolKempoDude
if you or your friend have digital camera, you can use that and transfer the picture to PC.

what is wrong with your scanner ???
:)

Nice call on the camera.

http://home.comcast.net/~matthewabarnes/newyear.html

It's not the most exciting of pictures, but it gets the point across.
I updated my system software, and my scanner fell victim. I have to perform a little 'driver reinstall' magic.

Matt

[Andrew Evans]

Matt,
First of all, I want to say that I and hopefully most people who saw that letter recognized it for the fraud that it is. I have never met Professor Kimo and thus my statements do not reflect a bias in favor of him. If anything, being a fellow member of Professor Walter Godin's family tree might make me scrutinize his actions more than I would someone elses.
From what I heard about Professor Kimo from many people, he is a decent person and highly-skilled martial artist. In my humble opinion, he does a great job of helping to represent Professor Godin's legacy. Last but not least, he must be a great person to have someone like you standing up for him. You have worked hard to clear his name and I respect that a lot. I hope none of us have to personally suffer a similar smear campaign but if we do, it would be great to have someone like you to protect our backs.
Respectfully, Andrew

[Matt]

Originally posted by Andrew Evans
Matt,
First of all, I want to say that I and hopefully most people who saw that letter recognized it for the fraud that it is. I have never met Professor Kimo and thus my statements do not reflect a bias in favor of him. If anything, being a fellow member of Professor Walter Godin's family tree might make me scrutinize his actions more than I would someone elses.
From what I heard about Professor Kimo from many people, he is a decent person and highly-skilled martial artist. In my humble opinion, he does a great job of helping to represent Professor Godin's legacy. Last but not least, he must be a great person to have someone like you standing up for him. You have worked hard to clear his name and I respect that a lot. I hope none of us have to personally suffer a similar smear campaign but if we do, it would be great to have someone like you to protect our backs.
Respectfully, Andrew

Thank you for the kind words. I think this thing has come to a close. I Spoke to John James of the Nick Cerio's Kenpo board, and as this affected him (He's hosted Kimo a few times in the past), he looked into it as well. He contacted just about everbody on the list, with the exception of Gerry Scott, Tony Troche, and Ed Louis. All said essentially that this letter was crap.

Today was the Kajukenbo Christmas party on Hawaii, and Kimo had a chance to talk to all three of them(Gerry Scott, Tony Troche, and Ed Louis), and they essentially said that they had no knowledge of this letter. Ed Louis seemed particularly concerned with garbage like this being associated with him, as he felt it was bad for the martial arts.

As for watching people's backs - it seemed to be the right thing to do. I've worked with Kimo for a couple of years, and the letter did not match in any way the Kimo I knew. As for your back, Mr. Evans, I'll keep an eye out.:)

On an unrelated note, keep Sijo Emperado in your thoughts, as he missed the party today due to being admitted to the Hospital:(

regards,
Matt Barnes

[Touch Of Death]

I was talking to a freind that I work with whom lived in Hawaii and he told me "Kimo" won a political office but was unable to assume the position because he had been arrested for driving his car on the runway at the airport when he was younger. Is this true?

[Matt]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
I was talking to a freind that I work with whom lived in Hawaii and he told me "Kimo" won a political office but was unable to assume the position because he had been arrested for driving his car on the runway at the airport when he was younger. Is this true?


Kimo Ferreira has never run for or been elected to a political office. He has not to his recollection ever been arrested for driving a car on a runway either.

By the way - is it the right Kimo your friend is thinking about? There's a few (thousand) Kimos in Hawaii.

Matt

[Matt]

Originally posted by Andrew Evans
Matt,
From what I heard about Professor Kimo from many people, he is a decent person and highly-skilled martial artist. In my humble opinion, he does a great job of helping to represent Professor Godin's legacy. Last but not least, he must be a great person to have someone like you standing up for him. You have worked hard to clear his name and I respect that a lot. I hope none of us have to personally suffer a similar smear campaign but if we do, it would be great to have someone like you to protect our backs.
Respectfully, Andrew

I'm famous now. Due to my diligence, I've been noticed. I've been given a featured role (and an instant promotion to 6th dan:rofl: - thanks fact checkers!) in the latest smear campaign against Kimo. My very own moronic, cowardly, anonymous stalker! I'm somebody now! Ok, it's not really my *own* stalker (I have to share), but you have to take what you can get...

It came on Dec. 24th - like a little Christmas present to me.

Matt

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by Matt
Kimo Ferreira has never run for or been elected to a political office. He has not to his recollection ever been arrested for driving a car on a runway either.

By the way - is it the right Kimo your friend is thinking about? There's a few (thousand) Kimos in Hawaii.

Matt The guy that told me this is from the Martial Islands, I did use the right last name when talking about "Kimo", but he probably latched on to the name "Kimo". I told him that I met him when I was in the ARMY and that "Kimo" was a Medic. He explained that that is why he got elected. He was just a regular guy with a regular life. Thank you for clearing that up. I was wondering. :confused:
Sean

[John Bishop]

Well Matt:

If your looking for the author of this last round of emails, your looking in the wrong place. Start a little closer to home. Real close. Talk is you might want to look for someone with the initials R.F. , and it's not a Kajukenbo guy, never has been.

Good Luck

[tshadowchaser]

I want to say folks that this thread has been informative and respectful.
Matt keep up your search for the truth and PLEASE keep us informed .

[Matt]

Originally posted by John Bishop
Well Matt:

If your looking for the author of this last round of emails, your looking in the wrong place. Start a little closer to home. Real close. Talk is you might want to look for someone with the initials R.F. , and it's not a Kajukenbo guy, never has been.

Good Luck

Thanks -

Yes, Richie seems to have a bit of a hand in this one, i.e. 'the east coast gang'.

Thankfully, I've made it to the mailing list, so I can trace them first hand....
:rolleyes:

Hey - I'm still warm and fuzzy about the mention by name and that 6th dan thing.

(Note to those with no abilty to sense sarcasm, I'm not a 6th dan, but the latest round mentions me as one.)

Have you received the version where the cowardly anonymous moron states falsely that Dechi Emperado is being investigated by the IRS? Classy, eh?

Happy holidays,

Matt

[John Bishop]

Matt:

I've got the 4 from 12-24-03, and most of the ones since the first one was emailed on 4-20-99.
You haven't discovered anything new here. Your just the first one to take this matter outside of the Hawaiian Kajukenbo and Kenpo families. We've always ignored the emails because we know whats true and whats B.S.
But now that you've given this guy a public forum be prepared for more.

[Matt]

Originally posted by John Bishop
Matt:

I've got the 4 from 12-24-03, and most of the ones since the first one was emailed on 4-20-99.
You haven't discovered anything new here. Your just the first one to take this matter outside of the Hawaiian Kajukenbo and Kenpo families. We've always ignored the emails because we know whats true and whats B.S.
But now that you've given this guy a public forum be prepared for more.

Oh no - I'm not the first to post something like that in a forum - besides the emails by martialinsider/martialartspress/moonkick, this person or group of people has posted to the Hawaiian Martial Arts History group at Yahoo, the Schools & Teachers forum at Martial Arts Planet, and someone else posted one by these folks to Onzuka.com regarding Sijo. As you may recall, one of the people mentioned in items #13 and #16, who on 11/16/2003 was removed from the Hawaiian Martial Arts International Society webpage where he used to be listed on the executive board page, posted messages by these people to the Kajukenbo Cafe, which I'm glad to say you have removed.

I'm just fielding the current crop.

Matt

[John Bishop]

My seniors and my peers have never discussed this publically outside of the Kajukenbo Ohana. This is because the attacks were always directed toward our system, founders, or practitioners.
The times it was posted on the net, it was done by the author of the attacks, or you. Since this does not concern or address anyone outside of the Kajukenbo Ohana, this will be my last comment here on the subject.

[rmcrobertson]

1. Mr. Bishop: for what it's worth, you have my sympathy in respect to your attempts to deal politely with this nonsense; and,

2. I can't tell you what a relief it is to see that American kenpo doesn't have a monopoly on silliness.

[Matt]

Originally posted by John Bishop
Well Matt:

If your looking for the author of this last round of emails, your looking in the wrong place. Start a little closer to home. Real close. Talk is you might want to look for someone with the initials R.F. , and it's not a Kajukenbo guy, never has been.

Good Luck

Well, as much as R.F. is a convenient suspect, I think (unless he spent Christmas in Hawaii) he's off the hook, at least as the sender. They came from the same hawaii roadrunner server that all of the previous ones have come through, and not New York.

Either he's joined 'Team Martialinsider' or perhaps if folks think he's been 'paper chasing' for a promotion, someone wants to kill two birds with one stone and make him even more unwelcome in the Kajukenbo circles.

I think he's just being offered up as the sacrificial Cow.

Matt

[Matt]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
1. Mr. Bishop: for what it's worth, you have my sympathy in respect to your attempts to deal politely with this nonsense;

He tries very hard. This is difficult, as these guys have been at work on this for a few years, and obviously are folks that spent quite a bit of time involved in the Hawaiian Martial Arts scene. They also seem to have no shame. I'm a bit of an outsider on this, so I'm working 6000 miles from the source. It is an advantage of sorts, as I am stuck drawing my conclusions from tracing emails and other sorts of empirical evidence, as I don't have longstanding relationships in Hawaii, so my personal investment is much smaller (except that I'm now named in one of the current crop.). John's been around Kajukenbo for a long, long time, and knows all of the significant people in the Kajukenbo community, especially since he's written many articles on Kajukenbo and other Hawaiian arts. It could very well be someone he's known for years (lots of people use that hawaii.rr.com server) that has been conducting this assault on Kajukenbo, and that must be unsettling.



and,

2. I can't tell you what a relief it is to see that American kenpo doesn't have a monopoly on silliness.

I used to think it was just the kenpo / kempo arts (I always thought the East Coast / Shaolin Kempo of my roots was worse!), but I've seen this stuff in TKD, Shotokan (gasp!), and pretty much every other one I've ever encountered...

So much for martial arts building character:(

Matt

[Shiatsu]

Ok first off Matt. It isn't John, it is Sigung Bishop. He has showed respect in the way he dealt with it, you should show the same respect.

As for the politics, for hells sake, show me a art that doesn't have it. Kaju is great, it has a great family atmosphere, however like every family, there are fights and quarels, however the web is not the place to do it.

[tshadowchaser]

This discussion has been polite and respectful , lets please keep it that way.
I do not belive Matt ment any disrespect to Sigung Bishop by calling him John. We all tend to get on a first name bases here and sometimes we goof and forget rank and age.

[Shiatsu]

I understand what you are saying, I was merely pointing something out. Sorry if it came off the wrong way. However he is a senior in my art, so that is why I spoke on it.:asian:

[Matt]

Originally posted by Shiatsu
Ok first off Matt. It isn't John, it is Sigung Bishop. He has showed respect in the way he dealt with it, you should show the same respect.

Sigung Bishop doesn't need a title to be respected. The countless articles he has written, the websites and forum he runs, and his years of training speak for themselves. I'll be happy to apologize to Sigung Bishop if he feels slighted by my referring to him by his name during the previous post. Perhaps because this 'project' has required relatively regular contact with him, I slipped into a more 'personal' mode. I'm sure he knows that I respect him. Really, was there anything in that post that was disrespectful?




As for the politics, for hells sake, show me a art that doesn't have it. Kaju is great, it has a great family atmosphere, however like every family, there are fights and quarels, however the web is not the place to do it.
I agree with you.
As I stated previously, the stuff was out there: broadcast email, websites, forums. I've just been the first to call them on it. Why? Google doesn't care if it's true. It comes up in search engines. Maybe if people were held accountable for their words, this stuff would be more rare.

Matt

[Shiatsu]

Disrespectful, well it depends on who you talk to. Sigung Cox, is my instructor and one of my closest friends, however I would never call him James. It just isn't right. Even if my ability is better than some sensei or Sigungs, I styill call them by their title.

Most likely that lack of respect is what has lead to the degradation of the arts.

[John Bishop]

Thank you Shiatsu for watching my back. I would expect no less from a Kajukenbo brother. And that is one of the things I love about Kajukenbo.
As to Matt, I am sure that there was disrespect meant, as we have corresponded many times thru email, and normally address each other by first name.
Besides, this is a mixed styles forum. So the use of titles is very hard here with all the differant customs and traditions practiced by the members. And many arts use no titles at all. Some arts even abhor the use of titles.

[Shiatsu]

Yes Sigung Bishop you are correct. I didn't even notice which forum we are in.

However respect is a earned thing to me, and I have never met a Kajukenbo/kajukembo person that didn't earn their rank, and even if they didn't I wouldn't want to here about it.

Politics are best left to the politicians, however Matt if you are ever in Texas and you just want some good hard training and Ohana spirit then stop by my school, visitors are always welcome. However ranks and titles are used and respect is given to everyone regardless of rank.:asian:

[John Bishop]

Originally posted by John Bishop
As to Matt, I am sure that there was disrespect meant, as we have corresponded many times thru email, and normally address each other by first name.


WOW, I just noticed a big mistake. Surprising how one word can change the whole tone of a converstion. Should read:
As to Matt, I am sure that there was "NO" disrespect meant, as we have corresponded many times thru email, and normally address each other by first name.
Sorry Matt.

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by Shiatsu
Disrespectful, well it depends on who you talk to. Sigung Cox, is my instructor and one of my closest friends, however I would never call him James. It just isn't right. Even if my ability is better than some sensei or Sigungs, I styill call them by their title.

Most likely that lack of respect is what has lead to the degradation of the arts. I know this has been resolved already , but I feel that people demanding respect for themselves or others cause more problems than unintentional lack of respect. Ed Parker was named the "Old Man" by many old time students. Some decided it was disrepectfull and would threaten or beat up those that used the term. We were taught to refer to him as "Mr. Parker" only by my instructor whom is only known in the MA community by his nickname... Skip. Go figure. We will only find heart ache when we expect of other peoples students the nuances we were taught. An example of that is when I first trained under Skip and a noise occured from behind while he was talking, God help you if you turned your head. Every school I have had the pleasure of training in ( to include "Kimo's) did not observe this 11th commandment. So , I had to learn not to look on other peoples students as direspectfull malcontents. Because after all they are only doing as instructed.
Sean

[Shiatsu]

Well you know as well as I, that in AK titles are not used. That is not the case in Kajukenbo, or Chinese Kenpo for that matter. If you met Sigung LaBounty, would you call him Steve? I highly doubt it. In Kajukenbo we are a traditional art, and with traditional arts, you have titles and ways of doing things.

Apples and Oranges.

[triwahine]

This has been some very interesting reading.:erg:

I am shocked to see some of what has been written. Also, I have seen one of the incidents mentioned. I was fortunate to meet Prof. Kimo in Las Vegas. He was shown a great deal of respect by those around him. I also saw him being escorted out of HMAIS tournament at the Sahara. Things were very calm when it happened. Why it happened? I don't know. I only saw Prof. Kimo being asked to leave.

As for politics, they are in everything. I have been in sports my entire life. Martial arts was one area where I did not see this until my current rank. I am working on my black belt, but never looked inside the art until recently. Now, I see that no matter where I turn politics and BS will be involved. I stopped playing softball because of the kiss the coach's ass mentality. Besides it got boring. Outrigger paddling is the same way. Basically, it's this clic vs this clic and men vs women. One-man paddling is way better. So, my point is that no matter what happens there will always be confrontation, confusion, uncertainty, and many questions to be answered.

Thank you to all who have put responses to this thread. Thank you Sigung Bishop for your patience, respect and very polite responses. I look forward to getting the chance to meet you and your kajukenbo ohana in the future (whenever I get to CA).

Aloha,
:drinkbeer

[Matt]

Originally posted by John Bishop
WOW, I just noticed a big mistake. Surprising how one word can change the whole tone of a converstion. Should read:
As to Matt, I am sure that there was "NO" disrespect meant, as we have corresponded many times thru email, and normally address each other by first name.
Sorry Matt.

I read right over that part - no harm done. Reminds me of my ninth grade report card. The comments about the students were numbered, and when the teacher put down the numbers he transposed them, and "A pleasure to have in class" became "Shows little or no respect for authority." That caused a bit of excitement at home.:confused:

Matt

[Matt]

Originally posted by triwahine
This has been some very interesting reading.:erg:

I am shocked to see some of what has been written. Also, I have seen one of the incidents mentioned. I was fortunate to meet Prof. Kimo in Las Vegas. He was shown a great deal of respect by those around him. I also saw him being escorted out of HMAIS tournament at the Sahara. Things were very calm when it happened. Why it happened? I don't know. I only saw Prof. Kimo being asked to leave.

Thanks for some 'eyewitness reporting'. It's funny how much less drama there is when someone without an agenda sees it.


As for politics, they are in everything. I have been in sports my entire life. Martial arts was one area where I did not see this until my current rank. I am working on my black belt, but never looked inside the art until recently. Now, I see that no matter where I turn politics and BS will be involved. I stopped playing softball because of the kiss the coach's ass mentality. Besides it got boring. Outrigger paddling is the same way. Basically, it's this clic vs this clic and men vs women. One-man paddling is way better. So, my point is that no matter what happens there will always be confrontation, confusion, uncertainty, and many questions to be answered.

Thank you to all who have put responses to this thread. Thank you Sigung Bishop for your patience, respect and very polite responses. I look forward to getting the chance to meet you and your kajukenbo ohana in the future (whenever I get to CA).

Aloha,
:drinkbeer

Sigung Bishop has been an example of how things like this could be handled. A class act.

Matt

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by Shiatsu
Well you know as well as I, that in AK titles are not used. That is not the case in Kajukenbo, or Chinese Kenpo for that matter. If you met Sigung LaBounty, would you call him Steve? I highly doubt it. In Kajukenbo we are a traditional art, and with traditional arts, you have titles and ways of doing things.

Apples and Oranges. Its not apples and oranges when both systems have self appointed cops bossing everyone around. Its more like apples and apples. Did you know their are over 7,000 varieties of apple?:)
Sean

[rmcrobertson]

Why wouldn't I call him, "Steve," or, "Steven," except in certain very-limited formal situations? I wouldn't ask him or anybody else to call me anything other than my regular old name....and I was always taught as a kid to address people as "Mr.," or, "Mrs.," or, "Ms," (I now just go with Mizz...), and they would tell me to just use their first name, if I were old enough, after formal introductions got made. What's wrong with that?

This titling stuff is ridiculous. Lemme tell you something about titles: without exception, every single one of the most-famous scholars I've ever met introduced themselves as, "Bob Scholes," or, "Ed Thompson," or whatever--and every single self-important lesser light I've met has insisted on his (and surprise, surprise, "his," is half the problem) title. Hell, I was out at a meeting with distance students a couple of weeks ago, and the dweeb I was sitting next to had his title on a shirt-pocket name-tag he apparantly wore everywhere.

I've had occasion to mention this before, so maybe here's something new--over-titling is the flip side of the same coin as disrespect for the arts we study and our instructors. It's part of the same damn problem as people studying for, say, three months and announcing that they've got it All Figured Out...and, it's part of the same mean sniping that Mr. Bishop was trying to respond to politely.

[Shiatsu]

Mr. Robertson after many of your posts bashing beginners to your art, as not knowing as much as you, how do you feel qualified to comment on this?

Isn't the respect and dignity from him what you were looking for from your time in the art?

Attitudes such as yours are the down fall of kenpo karate, and the reason that many people leave after years of the hierachy and ritualistic non-sense.

So you speak one way and act another.

Your post holds no merit with me.:asian:

[Michael Billings]

Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Michael Billings
-MT Moderator-

[Shiatsu]

I have never said anything that is disrespectful or not polite. If one cannot carry on a intelligent conversation, and live by his own actions, and words that he has spoke down on others, then of what worth is that man?

[Seig]

-Admin Note-
The Mod note was not directed at any one individual. It was rather generic. If it strikes a cord with you, then it has merit with you. If it does not, then it probably did not apply to you. Take it as it was meant, a prevantative measure to keep this thread from degrading into a personal argument or flame war.
-Seig-
-MT Ass't Admin-

[cjconnely]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
Why wouldn't I call him, "Steve," or, "Steven," except in certain very-limited formal situations? I wouldn't ask him or anybody else to call me anything other than my regular old name....and I was always taught as a kid to address people as "Mr.," or, "Mrs.," or, "Ms," (I now just go with Mizz...), and they would tell me to just use their first name, if I were old enough, after formal introductions got made. What's wrong with that?

This titling stuff is ridiculous. Lemme tell you something about titles: without exception, every single one of the most-famous scholars I've ever met introduced themselves as, "Bob Scholes," or, "Ed Thompson," or whatever--and every single self-important lesser light I've met has insisted on his (and surprise, surprise, "his," is half the problem) title. Hell, I was out at a meeting with distance students a couple of weeks ago, and the dweeb I was sitting next to had his title on a shirt-pocket name-tag he apparantly wore everywhere.

I've had occasion to mention this before, so maybe here's something new--over-titling is the flip side of the same coin as disrespect for the arts we study and our instructors. It's part of the same damn problem as people studying for, say, three months and announcing that they've got it All Figured Out...and, it's part of the same mean sniping that Mr. Bishop was trying to respond to politely.


Sir,

The titles are there to denote positions of respect and sacrifice rather than pretentious marketing ploys of egotistical maniacs. Sifu's, Sigung's, Siboks, Masters who have truly earned the right to be called these names instill a sense of confidence in those they teach. For example, a patient in an emergency room would feel more at ease being treated by a doctor that was called "Doctor" by his peers and constituents rather than somebody holding a scalpel and being called "Billy." It is the fundamental teaching of tradition and protocol that allows the first tenants of confidence to be instilled in the student. We have to set the example for students to follow and we can't ask them to do something that we haven't done or cannot do. This is how the art is able to survive from one generation to the next. Now, as far as you calling Sigung Labounty "Steve" or "Steven" that's between you and him. I don't know the man personally, however I do know that as far as his art is concerned there are very few that are more knowledgeable than him. I know that if I were to begin calling my Sifu by his first name, I cease being his student and the one common denominator that sets the foundation of our relationship, no longer exists between us. That is unacceptable to both myself and to him. He has spent more money and time on his education than most Judges, attorneys, and surgeons. He deserves the respect that comes with it. This is just my perspective. Thank you for allowing me to respond.

[tshadowchaser]

Now may we resume the discussion in the title of the thread and get off the other topic. The 2 parties have both agreed that no disrespect was intended THUSLY that subject should be ended, and the original topic brought back to the forfrount.
I do have a question that may or may not belong here. I know that there are more than a handful of different systems now under the headin of Kajukenbo haveing been bought into the "fold" over a number of years. How do all of these indiviual systems having there own internal politics, fit into the picture as whole? If this should be a seperate thread We can have the Admin. Team seperate it, if it belongs here it will be left here

[Shiatsu]

Well I will attempt to answer it the best I can, although Sigung Bishop is the expert on this matter.

All branches have a lot of similarities. All branches have a head. However everything can be linked back to Sijo. You will find suttle differences, such as the Emperado method is the old school hard knocks type. The Gaylord method is a lot more Kung Fu oriented, but it is still the hard knocking kajukenbo.

I don't know the total number of different branches. But I do know that every year in Vegas, everyone is welcome to come together at Sijo's birthday.

Were you looking for something more specific?:asian:

[Karazenpo]

Imho, this is very tough to put a finger on. There are soooooooo many offshoots now. What I love about studying under Gm. S. George Pesare is that it is the original kempo karate method, the school of hard knocks, no phoney black belts, no paper tigers. No matter what your standing or rank you are treated equal and expected to perform accordingly. If you expect a free pass here, it isn't going to happen. Respectfully, Shihan Joe Shuras

[Karazenpo]

Sorry guys for the double posting, I thought my first one didn't get through. Well, Happy New Year! God Bless alll!!!!!

[Seig]

No worries, duplicate post removed.
-Seig-
-MT Ass't Admin-

[tshadowchaser]

I think what I was looking for was an explanation of how different groups become/became members of the Kajukenbo family, and how the individual groups with there internal political (read as ranking lowest to GrandMaster) all fit togeather under the Kajukenbo family Political line.
For instance there may be 15 different styles now under the title of Kajukenbo , Each of these organisations was a style unto itslef at one time and has/had a structure of its own. Now along with its own structure it has the added structure of the kajukenbo family, so how are they intragated(sp)?

[rmcrobertson]

Dear Shiatsu:

Nope, not even close. However, I cannot respond in kind; I do not feel qualified (nor is it appropriate) to judge you personally or to pass judgment on the state of your--how shall I put this--martial ethics, because I've never met you. But I will note that some of the replies I got--yours now included--were far more disrespectful and ill-mannered than anything I wrote.

You might want to read the posts again. I responded to somebody who announced, after 3 months of kenpo (which they quit) and less than two years' study of the martial arts, that kenpo was stupid and here are the reasons why. I won't defend what I wrote further than that; I won't advert to my teaching experience. I will note that this guy wasn't asking a question, offering his impressions, or "opening a dialogue:" he was telling everybody else The Truth, and with a certain tone too. If it'd been a real question, I would've tried to answer.

A better argument would've been that I need to learn to ignore some of the stuff that's on these Internet forums, and that most readers are perfectly capable of recognizing goofiness without my help.

As for titles, well, I stand by my argument that this fascination with titles and the willingness to slather them on at every opportunity is exactly the reverse side of a coin that has disrespect for the art on it. It's just more male fantasy, that's all it is--and in American kenpo at least, it's particularly inappropriate in an art founded by somebody who'd introduce himself as, "Hi, I'm Ed Parker." Hell, I've got a copy of a test tape from 1984 (Mr. Parker presiding, Larry Tatum running the test, Bob Lyles testing, Jeff Speakman dummying, Dian Tanaka testing, Brian Hawkins and Scott Higgins and Barbara Hale and just go on testing for black) and I didn't hear one title in two hours. So what's the big deal? And who's, "hierarchy and ritualistic non-sense," are we talking about here?

Some of that "nonsense," by the way, makes it possible for us ordinary folks to train. And some of it seems to be spread around everywhere, wouldn't you say?

I repeat one last time: every single one of the professors and martial arts types I've met so far who deserved the most respect--not personally, but professionally--were completely unassuming of titles. And so far, everybody I've met who insisted on their titles was...somebody who really needed them a lot. I say, drag 'em out on ceremonial occasions. Like retirement banquets.

[John Bishop]

Originally posted by tshadowchaser
I think what I was looking for was an explanation of how different groups become/became members of the Kajukenbo family, and how the individual groups with there internal political (read as ranking lowest to GrandMaster) all fit togeather under the Kajukenbo family Political line.
For instance there may be 15 different styles now under the title of Kajukenbo , Each of these organisations was a style unto itslef at one time and has/had a structure of its own. Now along with its own structure it has the added structure of the kajukenbo family, so how are they intragated(sp)?

There are are several "styles and substyles" of Kajukenbo. I don't think there are as many as 15, but I could be wrong. And none of these styles have become "members" of Kajukenbo. They all have branched off of the "Original Method" without becoming a seperate system. Their subsystem title recognizes the emphasis they place on the 5 original arts that made up Kajukenbo.
That's why they are still called "Kajukenbo" and still recognize Sijo Emperado as the head of Kajukenbo.

EXAMPLE IN DESCENDING ORDER:

THE SYSTEM: is "Kajukenbo Kenpo Karate" also known as the "Original Method"
THE 4 STYLES: "Original Method", "Chuan Fa", "Tum Pai", "Won Hop Kuen Do".
SUB-STYLES: Of the "Original Method" would be "Kajukembo and "Noble System"
SUB-STYLES: Of "Chuan Fa" would be "Ramos Method", and "Gaylord Method".
SUB-STLYE: Of "Won Hop Kuen Do" would be "Fi-Kuen"

There are a few differant Kajukenbo Associations and Organizations, but these are not differant "styles or sub-styles". And all in Kajukenbo recognize Sijo Emperado as the head of ALL Kajukenbo.

[Matt]

Originally posted by John Bishop
There are are several "styles and substyles" of Kajukenbo. I don't think there are as many as 15, but I could be wrong. And none of these styles have become "members" of Kajukenbo. They all have branched off of the "Original Method" without becoming a seperate system. Their subsystem title recognizes the emphasis they place on the 5 original arts that made up Kajukenbo.
That's why they are still called "Kajukenbo" and still recognize Sijo Emperado as the head of Kajukenbo.

The perception that there is a preponderance of Kajukenbo styles is probably due to arts like Kenkabo, Kajukenpo, Kajukenfu, and others. In some cases, these were formed by Kajukenbo stylists who pursued other avenues, but others were formed by Kempo stylists who 'recreated' a kajukenbo type art by combining other arts with their kempo.

There is also the case that there are many Kempo styles that trace their history through Kajukenbo, most frequently the East Coast variants who sprang from the Karazenpo people of Victor Gascon, and to a degree the CHA-3 Kempo people. Kajukenbo has also influenced the Arts propagated by the students of Walter Godin such as Martin Buell, John Hackleman and Kimo Ferreira. Although influenced by Kajukenbo, these arts have returned to the general 'Kempo' designation, and are not Kajukenbo styles. I like the Kajukenbo Cafe's 'extended family' designation.

Matt

[Touch Of Death]

First of all I would like to say as someone who loves to argue with Robert that he was not being disrespectfull. At worst he is overly defensive about some subjects because they consantly reapear, and some new guy might say the wrong thing and get hit with both barrels. These are the Hazards of Internet forums. Nuff said.
I trained with "Kimo" for a few months and couldn't wait to train here in Washing ton state with another Kajukenbo instructor; however, what I found was not what I had. The difference was like night and day. I left after just one lesson.( this was just some guy in his garage so don't try to figure out which school)
Sean

[Andrew Evans]

I want to add that the Kajukenbo Ohana is a great group. Even though I am a member of the extended family, they have treated me with respect. The fellow extended family members I encounter are also great people. This reflects on the greatness of Sijo Emperado as well as the other leaders and founders. Thank you to the Kajukenbo Ohana and fellow extended family members! I appreciate all the help, support and friendship I have received. -Andrew

[tshadowchaser]

There are a few differant Kajukenbo Associations and Organizations, but these are not differant "styles or sub-styles". And all in Kajukenbo recognize Sijo Emperado as the head of ALL Kajukenbo.
Thank you I belive that the above statement answers my question

[Smoke Of Avernia]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
Dear Shiatsu:

Nope, not even close. However, I cannot respond in kind; I do not feel qualified (nor is it appropriate) to judge you personally or to pass judgment on the state of your--how shall I put this--martial ethics, because I've never met you. But I will note that some of the replies I got--yours now included--were far more disrespectful and ill-mannered than anything I wrote.



Ahh don't worry about cas- that is- that person. He's got this "head-up-the-butt" syndrome where if something that he doesn't agree is stated, he takes it as a personal attack.

See ya in class Shiatsu!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Shiatsu]

And just who would you be?

[Rick Wade]

I am currently working with Kimo for an article coming in the March issue of Kenpo Magazine about History. I have found Kimo to be extreemly knowledgeable about the history of Kenpo and he has never in my experence tried pump himself up.

Let the man's actions stand for themself and just look at his Kenpo. Make your own decisions from there. remember a punch is still a punch.

Thanks for listening

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by Rick Wade
I am currently working with Kimo for an article coming in the March issue of Kenpo Magazine about History. I have found Kimo to be extreemly knowledgeable about the history of Kenpo and he has never in my experence tried pump himself up.

Let the man's actions stand for themself and just look at his Kenpo. Make your own decisions from there. remember a punch is still a punch.

Thanks for listening Interestingly enough "Kimo" does call the art he trains Kenpo. At least he did in my presence. It did seem a habbit so I don't think it was only for my benefit. He teaches ground work right along with the acrobatic kicks so its not your average kenpo, but I will say that it is kenpo.
Sean

[Sergio Jódar]

Hi, I´ve read that Sijo Emperado has chosen a council for the Kajukenbo´s future. The senior grandmaster is George Kaanana, and one of the grandmasters is Thomas Mitose. If Thomas Mitose is the head of Kosho Ryu Kenpo, Why Emperado has chosen him?

Thanks

[Matt]

Originally posted by Sergio Jódar
Hi, I´ve read that Sijo Emperado has chosen a council for the Kajukenbo´s future. The senior grandmaster is George Kaanana, and one of the grandmasters is Thomas Mitose. If Thomas Mitose is the head of Kosho Ryu Kenpo, Why Emperado has chosen him?

Thanks

Yes, according to the kajukenbocafe, as posted by sigung Ted Sotelo:



By Order of Sijo Adriano D. Emperado, and Grand Master Dechi Emperado. , December 7th 2003. The official Council of Advisors for Kajukenbo are as follows.


Senior Grand Master George Kaanana

Grand Masters_ Emil Bautista
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Ted Sotelo
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Ted Tabura
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Thomas Mitose
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Kalaii Griffin
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Alfred Dela Cruz
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Vince Black
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Tony Bowles
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Rick Kingi
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Joseph Davis
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Angel G. Soldado
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Bob Meschmier
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Calvin Shin


He probably chose Thomas Mitose because he was a Kajukenbo guy for many years (under Joe Halbuna, I think) before he trained with his father, but really I don't presume to know what Sijo Emperado has in mind. I don't care if he names Santa Claus. It's his prerogative.
He's the founder, he knows these people, they obviously have the qualities he thinks are important.

Matt

[John Bishop]

Although GM Thomas Mitose claimed his familial right to the leadership of "Kosho Ryu Kenpo" after the death of his father in 1981, he has also been a Kajukenbo practitioner for over 40 years, and holds the rank of 9th degree in Kajukenbo.

[CoolKempoDude]

Originally posted by John Bishop
Although GM Thomas Mitose claimed his familial right to the leadership of "Kosho Ryu Kenpo" after the death of his father in 1981, he has also been a Kajukenbo practitioner for over 40 years, and holds the rank of 9th degree in Kajukenbo.

i didn't know he holds 9th degree in kajukenbo. Just wonder who promoted him ???

is HE still teaching his family art or kajukenbo now ????

the thing is getting complicated in kenpo community, isn't it ????

i don't know which is which anymore. I'm glad that i no longer practice MA

[Shiatsu]

So you don't study at all anymore? Why not if you don't mind me asking.

[CoolKempoDude]

Originally posted by Shiatsu
So you don't study at all anymore? Why not if you don't mind me asking.

I entered MA way too late. When i reach to my current age, i realize that it is a good time not to learn MA any more.

it will take me many years to be sufficient or "good" in MA . I'm sure i'm death by then.

what a over 64 years old man wants to do beside collecting my social security check and sit back and enjoy my life. ????

tax and death are the only 2 things i can't escape.