Kajukenpo and AK

[CoolKempoDude]

after looking at kenpo community, i see 2 largest systems in U.S: AK and kajukenpo

i can see nearly all founders of other *systems* comes from AK or kajukenpo ROOT

if i have to choose to pick up 1 of 2, i don't really know what to choose since they are very popular in U.S


what is the different between AK and kajukenpo ???? do these systems have the similarity ????

thanks

[bdparsons]

from both arts having the base art of Kenpo as it was taught by Prof. William Chow. While SGM Parker continued with the development of Kenpo into what is now American Kenpo, SGM Emperado collaborated with four other individuals to combine elements of various arts to develop Kajukenbo (not po).

Here's a site that might be helpful:

http://www.kajukenbo.org/history/

Respects,
Bill Parsons

[lhommedieu]

Don't have any experience with AK.

Kajukenbo is characterised by its hard training method.

Best,

Steve Lamade

[Blindside]

I started my training in the kajukenbo-kenpo systems, which some call the "original" kajukenbo. After reaching blue I wound up moving to another state, and found a Parker/Tracy hybrid kenpo school. The transition was relatively easy, the general self-defense movements and technique oriented curriculum were similar. The difference between my kaju and kenpo training was that my kaju training was demonstrated "hard-style" and my kenpo training was "softer." The kaju training had greater emphasis on jujitsu style throws and locks, and as a result required more frequent practice at break-falling than occurs in my current kenpo school.

Actually, one other difference I have seen is that most kenpo punch techs are demonstrated against a lunge punch or "right step-through punch" and most kaju punch defenses are demonstrated against a right cross. Weapon defenses entries are fairly similar though the kaju systems lean more toward joint locks than striking when trying to control the weapon.

Over my (few) years in the arts I have had the opportunity to train with various lineages of both systems and find that I can fit in with either group with little problem.

Lamont

[CoolKempoDude]

Originally posted by bdparsons
from both arts having the base art of Kenpo as it was taught by Prof. William Chow. While SGM Parker continued with the development of Kenpo into what is now American Kenpo, SGM Emperado collaborated with four other individuals to combine elements of various arts to develop Kajukenbo (not po).

Here's a site that might be helpful:

http://www.kajukenbo.org/history/

Respects,
Bill Parsons

thank you for pointing "bo".

[CoolKempoDude]

Originally posted by lhommedieu
Don't have any experience with AK.

Kajukenbo is characterised by its hard training method.

Best,

Steve Lamade

Kajukenbo

you guys still wear protective gear during training session ????

is your training still *brutal* or no more ????

[Shiatsu]

I would say it depends on the school. At my Kajukenbo school we have the students that pay the bills, you know the ones that come and go, and the rest of us a small group that get together on saturdays and bang. I would say though, we are definately not a patty cake school. It depends on which ones you go to. Some of the kaju schools such as Sigung Harpers are still hardcore.:asian:

[CoolKempoDude]

Originally posted by Shiatsu
I would say it depends on the school. At my Kajukenbo school we have the students that pay the bills, you know the ones that come and go, and the rest of us a small group that get together on saturdays and bang. I would say though, we are definately not a patty cake school. It depends on which ones you go to. Some of the kaju schools such as Sigung Harpers are still hardcore.:asian:

some of AK schools train like this ??? (this question for AK boys)

shiatsu,

that is the way you PRACTICE and TEST for belt ????

you control your emotion during training session or everything goes???

hardcore schools are MAINLY in N. california ??????

[Shiatsu]

We control our emotion. Beginner belts don't workout on our saturday session, unless they have prior experiance.

We test hard core perse from green on up. Basically in the schools I have been to. You won't be a kajukenbo BB if you can't dish or take a beating.

When we get BB from more traditional styles, even some kenpo styles, they usually think we are crazy. But we like it that way.

Northern Cali, mainly the bay area has a ton of Kaju schools and GM's in the area, I believe there are more there than in Hawaii.

Are you looking for a school?

[Goldendragon7]

Orig. posted by CoolKempoDude
Qhat is the different between AK and kajukenpo ???? do these systems have similarity ????


Differences always can be traced back to the perspective founders of a specific lineage.

In KaJuKenbo - most follow some structure as described by A. Emperado.

In American Kenpo - most follow some structure as described by Ed Parker.

As usual there are many similarities but the differences lie in the different philosophies that the founders developed or perscribed.

The type of Training be it hard or softer... lies with the individual instructors. I know of several examples of Both methods, in Both Systems.
It all depends on who you came up under.

:asian:

[CoolKempoDude]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7


1-different philosophies that the founders developed or perscribed.

2- I know of several examples of Both methods, in Both Systems.
It all depends on who you came up under.



1- Main different philosophies, pls???

2- a few examples would be nice. Thanks

[CoolKempoDude]

Shiatsu,

i don't look for school.

i just wonder why these 2 systems are so popular in U.S. They must have something good to offer. I try to understand them.

you guys use bare nuckles and punch your Partner during the test????

[Shiatsu]

Ya we do during the test. You can't have blackbelt with a false sense of security, especially one that believes that they are so good, that they will never get hit. The Kung fu elements such as trapping and the forms in our style are what you consider soft, however we are a hard style. I think the reason we are popular is because of that. We are definately popular wth police officers. I know AK is too.

[CoolKempoDude]

Originally posted by Shiatsu
Ya we do during the test. You can't have blackbelt with a false sense of security, especially one that believes that they are so good, that they will never get hit. The Kung fu elements such as trapping and the forms in our style are what you consider soft, however we are a hard style. I think the reason we are popular is because of that. We are definately popular wth police officers. I know AK is too.

seem like you have good stuff from BOTH worlds;)

1 person against another person or 1 against 3 or more ???

punch, kick, everything goes ?????

you guys must have good explaination why your arm or leg or body has bruise when asked ????

[Goldendragon7]

Orig. posted by CoolKempoDude
1- Main different philosophies, pls???


I can't comment in depth on the Kajukenbo system, since I haven't studied it in depth, only from years of talking/discussing with friends like Gary Forbach and Eric Lee and of course my personal experiences at tournaments or seminars.

In American Kenpo, Ed Parker took a deep scientific approach to organizing and developing an "outline" for the main areas of our art, such as the "analytical study of motion", 3 - points of view, 3 divisions of the art, web of knowledge, checking concepts, etc., etc., although there ARE many similarities, some clear differences in structure are evident as well. Not saying one is better just organized differently. Both have many excellent practitioners.


Orig. posted by CoolKempoDude
2- a few examples would be nice. Thanks

What I was referring to here was that in both Systems there are examples of both instruction methods, those that train softly or more intellectual, and those that put much more emphasis on hard physical training.

:asian:

[John Bishop]

The two things that make Kajukenbo and American Kenpo so popular with Americans are:
1. They were designed in modern times to defend against modern street attacks.
2. A traditional martial art tries to make every one fit into the art. Kajukenbo and Kenpo makes the art fit the individual.

[CoolKempoDude]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
Eric Lee


eric lee was a student of KAJUKENBO ?????
is he still teaching KAJUKENBO????

[Zoran]

I agree with Mr. Bishop's post.

Those that come from the Chow lineage tend to gravitate towards less traditional paths, which can be attractive to Americans.

If you look at the history of "Americanized" Kenpo, or modern Kenpo, you will find it sprung from Hawaii before it became a state. It was not the safest of places back then and their were quite a few tough neighborhoods. Many of the Kenpoists back then trained hard and fought hard, and I don't mean in a tournament. These people learned quite early that using what works is much more important than any need to follow tradition just for tradition's sake.

Even though there a differences, I feel we have more in common then not.

Other Modern, Americanized or Westernized Kenpo systems include.

Shaolin Kenpo (Castro)
Shaolin Kempo (Villari)
Cerio Kenpo
Karazenpo (sp?)
Tracy Kenpo
Chinese Kenpo
Karaho Kempo (Chow)
Dragon Kenpo

[Goldendragon7]

Orig. posted by CoolKempoDude
eric lee was a student of KAJUKENBO ?????
is he still teaching KAJUKENBO????


Eric trained under Al Dacoscos with a hybrid .. wonhopkuendo

I don't know what he is doing currently other than movies and seminars.....

:asian:

[CoolKempoDude]

Originally posted by John Bishop

A traditional martial art tries to make every one fit into the art. Kajukenbo and Kenpo makes the art fit the individual.

i see that in *old timer* training and philosophy. It is an excellent

[CoolKempoDude]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
Eric trained under Al Dacoscos with a hybrid .. wonhopkuendo

I don't know what he is doing currently other than movies and seminars.....

:asian:

i though he is a kung fu man because of all his pictures in different magazines

thanks for clarifying

[John Bishop]

Eric Lee is a black belt under GM Al Dacascos. GM Dacascos founded the "Won Hop Kuen Do" branch of Kajukenbo. There are 4 major branches of Kajukenbo. "Original (Kenpo) Method", "Chuan Fa", "Tum Pai", "Won Hop Kuen Do".
Within these branches are also various methods or subsystems.
Eric Lee normally only teaches in seminars since he divides his time between L.A. and San Francisco.
You can check Eric Lee's seminar schedule at his website: www.ericlee.com

[Karazenpo]

I'm from a direct subsytem of Kajukenbo-Karazenpo Go Shinjtsu. Most everyone covered all the bases on the differences and/or similarities of American Kenpo and Kajukenbo. The core or nucleus of these systems are more similiar than different, however, the major difference that I do see is the lack of groundwork and grappling in American Kenpo. Most EPAK schools that I know of that teach grappling at all take it from another system for it is not included in their curriculum. I've heard some make a case by saying that they don't have to go to the ground or grapple, they end the fight standing up! That's pure fantasy to me! Being in law enforcement since 1977, fights can unexpectedly go to the ground, so expect the unexpected and train for it. Some have even replied that they will counter any takedown-again-fantasy! It could be a slip on your part, an act of God as they say, an icy parking lot, wet street, snow, uneven terrain or your opponent simply takes you down! This to me is the main difference. I have also heard, but don't know for sure, that American Kenpo doesn't concentrate on weapon defenses as intense as Kajukenbo, again, it's just something I've heard over the years. There is not too much jui jitsu either in the American Kenpo from what I've seen. The traditional Kajukenbo & Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu training is definitely hardcore. I really don't know how hard Mr. Parker trained his students as far as that goes but let me also state I have the highest respect for Mr. Parker, his kenpo system and his overall contributions to the martial arts world. Respectfully submitted, Shihan Joe Shuras

PS: There is an offshoot system of Kajukenbo of the late Grandmaster Bill Gregory called Kajuken"P"o Pai Lum which sometimes confuses people on the spelling of the original system. Other offshoots have also used Kajukenpo to distinguish their art from the mother system.

[CoolKempoDude]

Originally posted by Karazenpo


1-the major difference that I do see is the lack of groundwork and grappling in American Kenpo.

2-American Kenpo doesn't concentrate on weapon defenses as intense as Kajukenbo

3-There is not too much jui jitsu either in the American Kenpo from what I've seen.



1- This perspective is really amazing. I heard some of AK boys MENTIONED about this in the past. NOW, I see 1 outsider MENTIONs it too.

2- weapon defenses MEANS club, knife, gun techniques ??????

3- You mean "NO circular movement" ??? example will be nice.

thanks for sharing

[CoolKempoDude]

Originally posted by John Bishop
There are 4 major branches of Kajukenbo. "Original (Kenpo) Method", "Chuan Fa", "Tum Pai", "Won Hop Kuen Do".



1- Do you a link for Kajukenbo headquarter's web site ????
2- If a person look for a kajukenbo school, how does he know if this school teach "original method" or "chuan fa" or "tum pai" or "won hop kuen do" ????????

thanks

[Karazenpo]

CoolKempoDude: Yeah, knife, club and gun. Ak has them but according to some of the AK people I've come across, its not as stressed as much as in kajukenbo. They stress more of the punch defenses. That's what I've heard, anyway. There is no lack of circular motion at all, if anything Mr. Parker stresses the circulartory movements of the Chinese arts, hopefully an AK instructor will read this and enlighten us better. I'm by no means an expert in EPAK, I just have some knowledge of it. One of my past instructors, the late Professor Nick Cerio trained with Grandmaster Parker. However, I have heard from many sources that Mr. Parker cut out a lot of the judo/ jui jitsu of the Hawaiian- derived kempo arts and from what I have seen of EPAK I'd have to agree. Sigung John Bishop can answer any and all questions on Kajukenbo, he is extremely knowledgable. Sigung is also an administrator at the Kajukenbo Cafe as I am a global moderator there. The Cafe has all the information you want on Kajukenbo.

[Karazenpo]

CoolKempoDude: I forgot one last thing as to your questions. Yes, each school will tell you which of the four branches they major in or methods for that matter.

[John Bishop]

Some Kajukenbo schools

http://www.kajukenbo.org/schools/

Kajukenbo Talk Forum with descriptions of the 4 branches, and a Kajukenbo "Who's Who"

www.kajukenbocafe.com

There is no Kajukenbo Headquarters Website
My website has links to over 30 Kajukenbo Websites

www.kajukenboinfo.com

If you don't know what style of Kajukenbo a school teaches, just ask the instructor.

[CoolKempoDude]

Karazenpo ,

i am not a jujitsu expert. i need to ask you 1 question
you mentioned "ak not too much on jujitsu".

you meant "not many tweaking arm techniques" ???? if not, what kind of techniques do people consider "jujitsu".

need to understand a little bit deeper:D

[CoolKempoDude]

John Bishop,

thanks for links. If PEOPLE feel the need to add more about the different and similarity between AK and kajukenbo or kajukenbo and AK itself.

pls do that here..... thanks

[John Bishop]

Well, there's several EPAK people her that can expand much more on their system. My observations of EPAK have come mostly from sitting on several black belt testing boards, and from some interviews for magazines. So, there's probably some aspects of EPAK that I have not been witness to.
One main differance that I have seen is that jujitsu joint locks and judo throws are used quite a bit in Kajukenbo. Perhaps in 30-40% of the various techniques. These are ussually finishers to kenpo or escrima hand strikes.
Since most of the early Kajukenbo stylists were Filipino Hawaiians, escrima (empty hand) techniques were also put into Kajukenbo. These would be what is described as "limb destruction" techniques. Techniques like bottom fist cutting type strikes on the biceps or triceps.
Most of the Kajukenbo founders and early practitioners were also amateur/professional boxers. Like any poor neighborhood in America, boxing provided a possible way out of the Palama/Kalihi district.
At the time of Kajukenbo's development, you could count the number of martial arts schools that would teach non-Asians on one hand. So the founders felt that if a street fighter had any formal training, it would be in boxing. With that thought in mind, they developed punch defense against a attacker who would throw a right cross, right cross hook punch combination, left jab right cross combination, grab and hook punch combination, etc.
They also looked at what were the common weapons at the time. Hence the club counters and knife counter defenses.

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Karazenpo said: The core or nucleus of these systems are more similiar than different, however, the major difference that I do see is the lack of groundwork and grappling in American Kenpo. Most EPAK schools that I know of that teach grappling at all take it from another system for it is not included in their curriculum. I've heard some make a case by saying that they don't have to go to the ground or grapple, they end the fight standing up! That's pure fantasy to me! Being in law enforcement since 1977, fights can unexpectedly go to the ground, so expect the unexpected and train for it. Some have even replied that they will counter any takedown-again-fantasy! It could be a slip on your part, an act of God as they say, an icy parking lot, wet street, snow, uneven terrain or your opponent simply takes you down! This to me is the main difference. I have also heard, but don't know for sure, that American Kenpo doesn't concentrate on weapon defenses as intense as Kajukenbo, again, it's just something I've heard over the years. There is not too much jui jitsu either in the American Kenpo from what I've seen.

[CoolKempoDude]

John Bishop,

how about gun techniques ????? people didn't use gun a lot in the past BUT they do nowsday

[CoolKempoDude]

Old Fat Kenpoka,

i read your posts about grappling techniques in AK in the past and i felt bad for you because many people jumped in and beat the hell out of you

but we have another person from different art jump in and gave his own *vision*.

You are a brave man and thank you for taking hits . Just kidding;)

it is good to see everybody's perspective about kenpo. Unafraid. Keep all the good work coming

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

CKD: Thanks for the support. Sometimes I'm a jerk and make people really mad. Sometimes, I think I am right, and really annoy people by letting them know that I think I am right.

[CoolKempoDude]

John Bishop,

since you mentioned about filipino art in kajukenbo, i don't know if this filipino is really significant in kajukenbo's development.?????

thanks

[CoolKempoDude]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
CKD: Thanks for the support. Sometimes I'm a jerk and make people really mad. Sometimes, I think I am right, and really annoy people by letting them know that I think I am right.

old fat kenpoka,

you really own me a dinner or lunch. Without "my thread", you will always be WRONG;)

just kidding. After reading another post along with yours, you surely know what you are talking.....because if many people say so, i GOTTA BELIEVE it

After looking around in U.S, AK and Kajukenbo are 2 largest systems.

it is nice to know why they are so popular and the different and similarity between these 2.

if you or anybody have question about these 2 arts, please participate.

[CoolKempoDude]

karazenpo,

your system is called Karazenpo Go Shinj U tsu OR Go Shinj I tsu?????

in nick cerios site, yours is go shinj I t su

and your signature is go shinj U t su.

i guess missspelling

[John Bishop]

Originally posted by CoolKempoDude
John Bishop,

since you mentioned about filipino art in kajukenbo, i don't know if this filipino is really significant in kajukenbo's development.?????

thanks

I don't know what your refering to?


Originally posted by CoolKempoDude
John Bishop,

how about gun techniques ????? people didn't use gun a lot in the past BUT they do nowsday

The "Original Method" didn't have gun techniques. Since then most of the instructors have added gun disarms.

[CoolKempoDude]

Originally posted by John Bishop
I don't know what your refering to?



kajukenbo founders added filipino movement into kajukenbo techniques ????

[John Bishop]

Originally posted by John Bishop
These would be what is described as "limb destruction" techniques. Techniques like bottom fist cutting type strikes on the biceps or triceps.

[lhommedieu]

For example: parrying his straight right hand with your left hand while throwing a hammerfist with your right hand to the dummy's bicep - as you flank to your left. This is a limb destruction that temporarily disrupts the movement of the right arm - probably due to the disruption of the brachial nerve. It should be noted that it is not a discrete technique, but the first in a series of techniques that generally ends with a finish on the ground.

It is quite possible that such techniques may have been originally knife defenses designed to pass the opponent's weapon arm to the outside while you destroy his abililty to use the weapon (it's impossible use a knife with a severed biceps tendon, for example).

It is interesting to note that (going the other way), the incorporation of "limb destruction," trapping, and locking techniques onto a boxing foundation is quite common in some modern Filipino martial arts.

It is also thought by some that the angling and footwork skills taught in Filipino martial arts are well-suited to boxing, where ring generalship goes a long way towards winning bouts

Best,

Steve Lamade

[CoolKempoDude]

lhommedieu,

thank you so much. You give me exactly what i want.....little deeper:D

[CoolKempoDude]

Originally posted by John Bishop

The "Original Method" didn't have gun techniques.

how did a kajukenbo guy deal with gun situation when "original method" didn't have gun techniques in the PAST???

[John Bishop]

Well I don't think any of the martial arts taught gun techniques in the 40's. Many of the Kajukenbo knife techniques can be used against a gun because they are jujitsu joint locks and arm bars.

[CoolKempoDude]

Originally posted by John Bishop
Well I don't think any of the martial arts taught gun techniques in the 40's. Many of the Kajukenbo knife techniques can be used against a gun because they are jujitsu joint locks and arm bars.

interesting, i never though a knife technique can be used in gun situation.

i do want to live in 40 not 21 century where some idiots shoot at other for no reasons

[CoolKempoDude]

I want to understand more about *extension* techniques of AK and kajukenbo

John Bishop and AK people ,

everything you learn after having BB is an *extension* what you LEARNED before having BB ????

thanks

[Seig]

or/and the basics

[CoolKempoDude]

Originally posted by Seig
or/and the basics

you are the MAN....:D well-put

[Karazenpo]

Thanks, Old Fat Kenpoka & CoolKempoDude. CoolKenpoDude, you asked me to elaborate more on ther jui jitsu but after reading Sigung Bishop's reply there's nothing I can add, he said it all. Karazenpo Go Shinj"U"tsu has always been spelled with the 'u' since its inception. Some of the Chinese Kempo systems such as the Chow/Chun connection of Goshinj"I"tsu Kai Chinese Kempo use the 'I'. If you see the "I" used in Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu, it is not the original spelling. It's much like the spellings of kenpo/kempo or ju jitsu/jui jitsu and so forth, no big thing but like I stated, the founder, Sijo Victor "Sonny" Gascon and the New England founder, Gm. S. George Pesare always spelled it Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu. As far as early gun techniques go, I do believe they were taught in the early Hawaiian kempo days. In James M. Mitose's book written in 1947 and published in 1953, What is Self Defense? (Kenpo Ju Jitsu) there is a section covering empty hand gun defenses. Also to concur with Sigung Bishop, I've noticed too that many knife disarms can substitute for gun disarms with little or sometimes no real modification. Respectfully submitted, Shihan Joe

[Karazenpo]

CoolKempoDude, I checked Nick Cerio's Kenpo's website. The only metion of Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu I saw was in his biography and it was spelled with a 'U'. ???

[CoolKempoDude]

Karazenpo,

all gun techniques comes from knife techniques???

Edit: i must look karazenpo go shinjItsu elsewhere....sorry for misunderstanding

i knew it wasn't not on nick cerios web site but when i tried to EDIT my post, it was too late because this forum only gives me 60 mins to EDIT

i waited too long. Sorry for misunderstanding.....thank you for clarifying

[Karazenpo]

No, "ALL" gun techniques don't come from knife techniques but there is a basic concept & principle on knife disarming using the acronym (pardon the pun) G.U.N. meaning Grab, Undo & Neutralize. This to applies to gun disarming so some of the techniques for knives, with a little adjustment, work for guns. Know what I mean?

[CoolKempoDude]

Originally posted by Karazenpo
No, "ALL" gun techniques don't come from knife techniques but there is a basic concept & principle on knife disarming using the acronym (pardon the pun) G.U.N. meaning Grab, Undo & Neutralize. This to applies to gun disarming so some of the techniques for knives, with a little adjustment, work for guns. Know what I mean?

knowledge is scary and freaky:D ;)

Yes, I ABSOLUTELY know what you mean.:D ;) :asian:

thank you

[CoolKempoDude]

Karazenpo,

club techniques falls under G.U.N category TOO????

[Karazenpo]

CoolKempoDude, No they wouldn't, different concepts. Clubs are classified as 'impact' weapons, knives as 'edged' weapons. In club defense you don't have to be 'so exacting'. Let me explain. A club is an extension of your reach. Defending against a club is similar to defending against a good Korean-style head kicker. You have to be close enought to 'kiss' him on the cheek to disarm him. Now, if you're not ready to move in (you don't want to hesitate going in or you may get caught half way) then you simply move the target, which is you!, either by ducking or stepping to another plane. This may be done as many times as it takes until you are ready to lunge in. If its a baseball bat with a baseball-type swing you can go in on the forward swing (when he cocks the bat back) or the reverse swing (cross-club), you may trap and uitilize close combat or infighting techniques to neutralize him. Depending on the length of the impact weapon, the attacker needs room to create momentum to develop power in the swing, in the case of a bat or tire iron, he needs more room than let's say a 'blackjack". A knife needs no room at a all, does not neccessarily need momentum or power, just a slight movement can be deadly. That's what I mean about being more exacting. You have to be conscience of where that knife is at all times. With the knife, control of the knife weilding arm is imperative and should you both go to the ground you can still be cut and/or killed. Say you rush in and jam a bat weilding opponent hard and you both go to the ground (that has happened in real encounters), you don't have to be concerned so much about the bat as you grapple with and neutralize the assailant. In close encounters I'm more comfortable dealing with a gun or club in close than a knife. Take a gun, you have two 'givens'. 1) the bullet comes out in linear motion and 2) you have to pull the trigger to fire it. No surprises! Very predictable but a knife can cut you from eight different angles and can be slashing, stabbing, poking, overhead, etc., unpredictable as to what the assailant will do. Also the other more comfortable part when dealing with a gun, you can grab the gun and hand while disarming, with the knife you can end up cutting a tendon or cutting your wrists. So even though there are some similiarities with the gun and knife techniques, there is still a difference and gun techniques are a 'modification' of knife, can be similiar but still different! Clubs defenses are most definitely different than the knife.

[CoolKempoDude]

Karazenpo,

thanks for the information which is informative. You explain clearly. I agree with what you said here.

If anybody needs to add more about club,gun,knife techniques here, pls do so.

thank you:D :D

[Zoran]

One thing you should be aware of on gun defense, is to make sure the barrel never crosses you body while trying to take control. Also, grabbing at or above the wrist may not be a good idea either as the wrist can bend and the gun can still swivel and point at you.

On top of all that, since the gun is a projectile weapon, you need to be aware of other people. Especially if you have a loved one with you. If you disarm the attacker and the gun goes off during the process, which it probably will, you could quite possibly get someone dear to you killed.

Knife may be a real complex and scary problem, but the gun is more impersonal and presents all kinds of unique problems to deal with.

[Karazenpo]

Yes, Zoran. In our gun techniques we simultaneously turn the body, grab the gun (not the wrist) and redirect the gun toward the assailant. Sometimes, depending on the gun this may jam the inital shot, the grab that is, other times, ex. a semi-auto 'street ready' ( one in the chamber) has a good chance of going off. So, I base my techniques on a three-pronged back up 1) redirect the weapon 2) possibly jam the weapon 3) turn the body, all done simultaneously. This way all three would have to fail to be shot. Gotta go, talk to ya later, "Joe"

[CoolKempoDude]

Karazenpo,

knife techniques can be used in sword or something similiar weapon situation ???

gun techniques applied for short *hand gun* is still the same as M16 or AK47???

[CoolKempoDude]

AK people.

i would love to hear your *weaponry* techniques as well. pls discuss it here

many thanks

[KENPOJOE]

Originally posted by Blindside
I started my training in the kajukenbo-kenpo systems, which some call the "original" kajukenbo. After reaching blue I wound up moving to another state, and found a Parker/Tracy hybrid kenpo school. The transition was relatively easy, the general self-defense movements and technique oriented curriculum were similar. The difference between my kaju and kenpo training was that my kaju training was demonstrated "hard-style" and my kenpo training was "softer." The kaju training had greater emphasis on jujitsu style throws and locks, and as a result required more frequent practice at break-falling than occurs in my current kenpo school.

Actually, one other difference I have seen is that most kenpo punch techs are demonstrated against a lunge punch or "right step-through punch" and most kaju punch defenses are demonstrated against a right cross. Weapon defenses entries are fairly similar though the kaju systems lean more toward joint locks than striking when trying to control the weapon.

Over my (few) years in the arts I have had the opportunity to train with various lineages of both systems and find that I can fit in with either group with little problem.

Lamont

Dear Lamont,
Thank you for your personal insights into a comparitive study between Kajukenbo and American Kenpo/Tracy Kenpo!
You brought up several interesting points...
1. Confirming the early "Hard Style" approach of the Kajukenbo training as opposed to the "softer" approach, first of all, The old kajukebo/Hawaiian Kenpo adage of "We don't leave 'til there's blood on the floor" mentality was from a time of "no litigation" and a true sense of "the school of hard knocks" training. I remember fondly Mr. Parker telling stories of his early training with Prof.Chow and one time having to drive home trying to look through the hole in his eyelid from that night's training! I've also seen photographs of Mr. Parker and Mr. Emperado in the same class training under prof chow! Adriano Emperado was Mr. Parker's senior in Prof. Chow's class and he was one of the main instructors at one time. As you mention the studio you presently study at is a parker/tracy hybrid, I can only presume that the "softer" approach was due to a more commercial atmosphere and insuring that they kept students in the door!
2. In regards to the Jujutsu/jujitsu influence of kajukenbo, there are "grab arts" techniques that deal with defenses against grabbing attacks, whereas those attacks are taught as part of the inter-tsructiure of the American kenpo syllabus and not as a seperate catagory,per se. Also, many of the grabs,chokes, holds, hugs,and locks are taught to the american kenpoist. however, they are normally taught as the "attacks" that you must defend yourself against! Therein lies the jujutsu element! You're supposed to teach the student how to properly do the attack [E.G. Jujutsu/jujitsu move or "trick"] then show then how to defend against it!
3. Lamont, you also stated one of the main points that i've tried to bring forth to local new england kazazenpo/shaolin kempo practitioners that you confirmed in your post! Many of the founders of the hawaiian kenpo/kajukenbo lineages were boxers! So, they would keep a traditional left lead boxers stance and through the punches they knew from that stance! No self respecting boxer steps through with his right foot unless he is well versed in fighting "southpaw"! This clearly shows how some techniques in each given system [I.E. "dance of death" in the Parker/Tracy lineage & combination #3,#6,&#7 in the old Cerio/Kenpo Karate/Shaolin Kempo lineage] So, thank you for confirming that particular aspect!
4. in regards to defenses against weaponry [Club,Knife,gun (and baseball bat!)] In each system, there are basically 2 approaches regarding disarming an attacker 1.Disarm by technique 2. Disarm by pain! (striking). Since jujutsu/jujitsu is more prevalent in weapon defense techniques due to the weapon culture of japan, it make perfect sense that many of the weapon defenses would by more grappling oriented. I'm also sure styles like Danzan Ryu Jujitsu had much to do with that as well!
Thank you for your post!
I hope that I was of some service!
KENPOJOE

[KENPOJOE]

Originally posted by CoolKempoDude
some of AK schools train like this ??? (this question for AK boys)

shiatsu,

that is the way you PRACTICE and TEST for belt ????

you control your emotion during training session or everything goes???

hardcore schools are MAINLY in N. california ??????

Dear "dude"
You will always find AK schools willing to "Bang" on one another for fun and profit! You simply have to look for them!

BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

[KENPOJOE]

Originally posted by Shiatsu
We control our emotion. Beginner belts don't workout on our saturday session, unless they have prior experiance.

We test hard core perse from green on up. Basically in the schools I have been to. You won't be a kajukenbo BB if you can't dish or take a beating.

When we get BB from more traditional styles, even some kenpo styles, they usually think we are crazy. But we like it that way.

Northern Cali, mainly the bay area has a ton of Kaju schools and GM's in the area, I believe there are more there than in Hawaii.

Are you looking for a school?

Well said! Wonderful sentiment! It really depends on the background of the individuals involved and where they studied before as well! The guys who used to be "slapped around" at a hard core "old school" will salivate at a chance to "play" and even if they get "smacked around" on "the short end of the stick" they are still smiling because they got to train the "old way" and will say "thanks for the memories"!
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

[KENPOJOE]

Originally posted by John Bishop
The two things that make Kajukenbo and American Kenpo so popular with Americans are:
1. They were designed in modern times to defend against modern street attacks.
2. A traditional martial art tries to make every one fit into the art. Kajukenbo and Kenpo makes the art fit the individual.
Great Quote,John!
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

[KENPOJOE]

Originally posted by Zoran
I agree with Mr. Bishop's post.

Those that come from the Chow lineage tend to gravitate towards less traditional paths, which can be attractive to Americans.

If you look at the history of "Americanized" Kenpo, or modern Kenpo, you will find it sprung from Hawaii before it became a state. It was not the safest of places back then and their were quite a few tough neighborhoods. Many of the Kenpoists back then trained hard and fought hard, and I don't mean in a tournament. These people learned quite early that using what works is much more important than any need to follow tradition just for tradition's sake.

Even though there a differences, I feel we have more in common then not.

Other Modern, Americanized or Westernized Kenpo systems include.

Shaolin Kenpo (Castro)
Shaolin Kempo (Villari)
Cerio Kenpo
Karazenpo (sp?)
Tracy Kenpo
Chinese Kenpo
Karaho Kempo (Chow)
Dragon Kenpo

Dear Zoran,
I enjoyed your post and I wanted to elaborate upon it...
In regards to your comment about Chow's lineage being less traditional, that is indeed true! As a security guard at construtcion sites, Prof. Chow had more than his share of "on the job training" and i've found that the less "traditional" an art is, the more open-minded it tends to be! I think the idea does not appeal to americans exclusively, but rather, any individual who is seeking a practical, pragmatic approach to self defense.
Living in the hawaiian districts of Palama and Kalihi, with it's ethnic melting pot and it's volitale [sp?] atmosphere, almost precluded you knowing how to defend yourself [and a lot of chances to "practice"]I remember sijo emperado,Al dacascos and other hawaiian martial artists telling stories of fighting or "rolling" sailors so they could take their pants for GI bottoms!
With the exception of Ed Hutchingson's Dragon kenpo, i've had the pleasure of studying,training, or at least taking seminars in all the above mentioned styles and systems, and as I always say "We are more alike than we are different!"
I hope I was of some service,
KENPOJOE

[KENPOJOE]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
Eric trained under Al Dacoscos with a hybrid .. wonhopkuendo

I don't know what he is doing currently other than movies and seminars.....

:asian:

Hi folks!
Just to let you know Wun Hop Kuen Do is the cantonese pronunciation [loosely] of Kajukenbo [it actually translates as "combined arts fist way"]
I hope I was of some service,
KENPOJOE

[KENPOJOE]

Originally posted by John Bishop
Eric Lee is a black belt under GM Al Dacascos. GM Dacascos founded the "Won Hop Kuen Do" branch of Kajukenbo. There are 4 major branches of Kajukenbo. "Original (Kenpo) Method", "Chuan Fa", "Tum Pai", "Won Hop Kuen Do".
Within these branches are also various methods or subsystems.
Eric Lee normally only teaches in seminars since he divides his time between L.A. and San Francisco.
You can check Eric Lee's seminar schedule at his website: www.ericlee.com

Dear Mr.Bishop [I hate writing "dear John" letters! lol!]
I've had the pleasure of seeing a "chuan Fa" video tape done by Bill Owens [who i met at TGOE 1 in Vegas] as well as seeing Al Dacascos demonstrating Won Hop Kuen Do. I've only seen a breif video seminar demo of John Loring or leoning elaborating on "Tum Pai" [love the pre systems "chinese bat logo" for tum pai, and seen some of the "original" style from a gathering held by Kallaii Griffin in massachusetts several years ago...
Thank you for elaborating on the major "sub styles"
Let's not forget "Kakenbo" [Sid asuncion's version'] among many others!
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

[KENPOJOE]

Originally posted by Karazenpo
I'm from a direct subsytem of Kajukenbo-Karazenpo Go Shinjtsu. Most everyone covered all the bases on the differences and/or similarities of American Kenpo and Kajukenbo. The core or nucleus of these systems are more similiar than different, however, the major difference that I do see is the lack of groundwork and grappling in American Kenpo. Most EPAK schools that I know of that teach grappling at all take it from another system for it is not included in their curriculum. I've heard some make a case by saying that they don't have to go to the ground or grapple, they end the fight standing up! That's pure fantasy to me! Being in law enforcement since 1977, fights can unexpectedly go to the ground, so expect the unexpected and train for it. Some have even replied that they will counter any takedown-again-fantasy! It could be a slip on your part, an act of God as they say, an icy parking lot, wet street, snow, uneven terrain or your opponent simply takes you down! This to me is the main difference. I have also heard, but don't know for sure, that American Kenpo doesn't concentrate on weapon defenses as intense as Kajukenbo, again, it's just something I've heard over the years. There is not too much jui jitsu either in the American Kenpo from what I've seen. The traditional Kajukenbo & Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu training is definitely hardcore. I really don't know how hard Mr. Parker trained his students as far as that goes but let me also state I have the highest respect for Mr. Parker, his kenpo system and his overall contributions to the martial arts world. Respectfully submitted, Shihan Joe Shuras

PS: There is an offshoot system of Kajukenbo of the late Grandmaster Bill Gregory called Kajuken"P"o Pai Lum which sometimes confuses people on the spelling of the original system. Other offshoots have also used Kajukenpo to distinguish their art from the mother system.

Hi Joe! [great first name you got there! lol!]
I was reading your post and I wanted to make a few comments on it...
1. As a black belt in both lineages, i'd like to address one of the common falicies commonly perpectuated as of late through the kenpo community,which is "American Kenpo had 90% of the Jujutsu/jujitsu taken out of it" which would somewhat colaborate your statement eluding to the lack of "groundwork or grappling" in EPAKK. First of all, that particular comment was written by another kenpo systems website long ago and has since been removed from it, and i've written extensive post on at least 2 kenpo message boards blowing more holes out of that statement than swiss cheese! As a past and present practitioner of the grappling arts, I can definitely vouch for the amount of "stand up grappling" techniques in kenpo, but as i mentioned in a previous post on this thread, they are normally introduced as attacks which you defend yourself against, and intergrated in subiquent techniques. As far as "groundwork" are you meaning "newaza" [ground techniques"] as far as i've seen,american kenpo,kajukenbo, and karazenpo all suffer from a lack of material in this area until the advent of the BJJ phenomenom in the 1990's. If you are refering to techniques like "osoto gari" [major outside reap"] or other "standing" judo/jujutsu throws/sweeps/reaps/ and takedowns, they are in all the above mentioned styles/systems and are not considered groundwork, but rather "tachi waza" [standing techniques]. The last thing most kenpo people want to do is be on the ground with an opponent!
2. As far as fighting upright as opposed to the "90% of all fights end up on the ground" mindset, I definitely have had my fair share of "incidents" and i've gone to ,or been taken to the ground in an extremely small percentage of those fights. I find the previous quote to be a "partyline" quoted by grapplers. Now, mind you, i've had the sheer pleasure of working with some of the finest martial astist who are master kenpoists as well as grapplers [David German immediately comes to mind!]. In regards to the L.E.O. slant on the point, many times a grapple will occur during handcuffing, or a suspect will go for your sevice sidearm, or a drunken or high wildmen "giving you a hug" analogy. I concur with you on the "random factors" that will cause you to be taken down and that you should be aware of how to handle it, but, as i said earlier, none of the above mentioned styles addressed that in detail until recently.
3. In regards to the amount of weapon defenses in american kenpo,i'll detail them out on another post,and if Mr. Bishop will be so kind, he can give a list of the kajukenbo techniques as well. Please provide a list of the techniques from Mr. Pesare's system and we can compare and contrast the similarities and differences!:)
4. Like all kenpo systems, you have "hardcore" schools and "commercial" studios, many of the "old timers" would ask for "old time" classes with "the good stuff" ,which consisted of drilling basics into the ground and sweating your brains out and or "bare knuckle"sparring and blasting off techniques on each other in the "technique line" with more than sufficent force!
5. RE: PS: Bill Gregory's Kajukenpo-Pai Lum system is an offshoot of Nick Cerio's early kenpo system and is therefore closer to George Pesare's "kaito gakko" than most people realize. There were no pinan forms in "shir Tai Gung"s style, only the katas Prof. Cerio learned from mr. Pesare, so that dates the training and influence. The reason for the "Kajukenpo" was multi fold. First, it was to give credit to the hawaiian roots of the that particular aspect of the art,second, to acknowledge other martial arts influences that contributed to GM Gregory's martial arts training.thirdly The "bo" was left out of name not only because of it not being directly from Emperado's art, but also because the "chinese boxing" [kung fu] was provided by the Pai Lum lineage of Daniel Kane Pai and was already duely noted in the name of the art. Al Gene Caluia [a former "john keehan/Count Dante" student as well as kajukenbo BB] uses "Kajukenpo" as well.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE

[KENPOJOE]

Originally posted by Karazenpo

PS: There is an offshoot system of Kajukenbo of the late Grandmaster Bill Gregory called Kajuken"P"o Pai Lum which sometimes confuses people on the spelling of the original system. Other offshoots have also used Kajukenpo to distinguish their art from the mother system.

PS: The reason i know about Bill Gregory's system is because I hold a Fifth Degree Black belt rank in the Kajukenpo/Chuan Fa/kenpo aspect of his art and was helping him with a video tape series and updated training manual prior to his untimely death due to cancer.
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

[KENPOJOE]

Originally posted by Karazenpo
CoolKempoDude: Yeah, knife, club and gun. Ak has them but according to some of the AK people I've come across, its not as stressed as much as in kajukenbo. They stress more of the punch defenses. That's what I've heard, anyway. There is no lack of circular motion at all, if anything Mr. Parker stresses the circulartory movements of the Chinese arts, hopefully an AK instructor will read this and enlighten us better. I'm by no means an expert in EPAK, I just have some knowledge of it. One of my past instructors, the late Professor Nick Cerio trained with Grandmaster Parker. However, I have heard from many sources that Mr. Parker cut out a lot of the judo/ jui jitsu of the Hawaiian- derived kempo arts and from what I have seen of EPAK I'd have to agree. Sigung John Bishop can answer any and all questions on Kajukenbo, he is extremely knowledgable. Sigung is also an administrator at the Kajukenbo Cafe as I am a global moderator there. The Cafe has all the information you want on Kajukenbo.
Hi Folks! [and joe especially!]
American kenpo does not seperate the techniques in catagories per se [meaning lumping them all together at one time] rather, we use the "web of knowlegde" to organize techniques according to the amount of danger associated with them [grabs and tackles.pushes,punches,kicks,holds and hugs, weapons,multiple attacks or attackers, and combinations of the above 8 catagories] This makes for ,IMHO, ia more well rounded format for material presented and an easy way to remember what you are to learn in the future. Mr. Parker elude to his art as "Chinese Karate" and the influence is evident.
Prof. Cerio did indeed train to an extent with Mr. Parker, but refered to him as his "Coach" as opposed to his instructor, but, that is a whole different thread!
In regard to the "american kenpo took out a lot of the jujitsu" line, it's a lie and an attempt to play "kenpo revisionist history" on some people's parts. or people blithly parrot out the line because they read it on an internet website without checking the facts and/or history. Joe, as a friend and a person i've met and broke bread with, i'd be more than happy to go over a comparitive study of both of our respective systems and generally have a great time going over each others material! [NOTE: TO THOSE OF YOU ON THE BOARD WHO DO NOT KNOW EITHER OF US: this is not a "challenge" in any way,shape and or form! I've had the pleasure of meeting Joe on at least 3 occasions [and with kathy last time] and we are martial arts aquaintances and friends!]
:D
I recently joined the Kajukenbo Cafe and look forward to chatting on there as well!
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

[Matt]

Originally posted by KENPOJOE
Hi Folks! [and joe especially!]

I recently joined the Kajukenbo Cafe and look forward to chatting on there as well!
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

Hey Joe! (And Joe!)

Good to see you posting - whew that was a lot of information in a short period. I'm going to have to archive this.

Hope to see you on the cafe soon, as I've been busy giving them headaches over there, so I've been neglecting the other forums.

Matt

[CoolKempoDude]

Matt,

how is your *research* ????

pls update us with what you got. Can't wait to hear from you

thanks;)

[Karazenpo]

Hey, you guys are great, KenpoJoe Rebelo, Matt Barnes, all of who I've met personally, and CoolKempoDude whom I haven't met personally but definitely think he's COOL! Brother, hopefully we'll all hook up some day. Hey guys, what a 'beaten' I took on the Kenponet for expressing a popular but controversial opinion. Check it out if you haven't already. Please, you don't have to comment because if you happen to agree with me you'll get lambasted like myself and many others. I got a lot of support on private e-mails which really made me feel good! I won't post on there again because I will not be treated that way by people (punks) whom I cannot confront face to face. You know guys, it's so easy to hide behind a keyboard and say whatever you want but a little different when it's face to face. I've delt with people like this before and found them to be insecure, bullies, and in the end someone, somewhere, ends up cutting them off at the ankles. it happens all the time. Know what I mean? Okay, enough said, let's move on from there! Yes, I would most definitely like to continue this discussion. We all learn from each other and since I've personally met Joe and Matt I have learned from them, thank you, and I have received some great input from "COOL KEMPO DUDE", God bless, my brothers, and take care! "Joe"

[CoolKempoDude]

Karazenpo,

can you post the link where you discussed a controversial topic so that everybody can read ?????

if you can't do it there, DO IT right here :);)

thanks for your *cool* words;)

[Karazenpo]

CoolKempoDude, It actually wasn't my post at all, I intially gave just a respectful comment off this post that went against the grain with some and it snowballed from there. Someone posted about an instructor who was a 7th dan taking a 10th on the urging of his students and friends or peers. My comment had nothing to do with the man's ability, as a matter of fact it was just a comment in general, that it doesn't matter who it is, I don't agree that students should have anything to do with their instructor's rank promotions and I stand by that, my opinion, my perspective. It shouldn't have been any big deal. At least here, I feel the professionalism of the moderators would not allow or condone the type of behavior that my response triggered. That was really about it! I did get a lot of private e-mail support which was deeply appreciated.

[CoolKempoDude]

Originally posted by Karazenpo
Someone posted about an instructor who was a 7th dan taking a 10th on the urging of his students and friends or peers.

I don't agree that students should have anything to do with their instructor's rank promotions and I stand by that, my opinion, my perspective.

I did get a lot of private e-mail support which was deeply appreciated.

I have to agree with what you said here. Did you participate in another thread about promoting grandmaster in here ???

if you haven't done, you should VOTE because I did. It is an interesting thread.

You aditionally receive another apreciation from me :);)

[Karazenpo]

Thanks alot CoolKempoDude, It's appreciated also. Yes, I will vote on that one. I would also like to give a thumbs up to Joshua and those who moderate at Kenponet for it has been brought to my attention the whole episode was deleted. Good for Josh!

[Karazenpo]

Hey KenpoJoe, hope all is well. I was re-reading some of the earlier posts, by the way excellent job, it is obvious you are extremely well versed in several arts and your professional insight is always welcome! , I just wanted to comment on the grappling aspect of Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu. Being a student of Gm. S. George Pesare in the late 70's from what I recall then he stressed the ground work also, the grappling, the judo, I do agree that many other systems got into it in the 90's due to the popularity of BJJ but if I recall Gm. Pesare was into early on. I do not know if the other Karazenpo schools do but one would think they would have been influenced by Sijo Gascon, especially considering his background in judo prior to taking up Kajukenbo. Even now Gm. Pesare has an annual 'Best of the Best' tournament where one has to place in 9 disciplines to accumulate points to place in the overall finals. For example, if you are only good in one area, for instance, grappling and you beat everyone in your division, you get nothing. They are: 1) boxing 2) 'grappling' 3) high kicking 4) short sword 5) long stick 6) archery 7)knife to knife 8) power knife throwing 9) pistol. I totally agree with what you refer to as the stand up grappling in the EPAK. I also refer to that as jui jitsu-escapes from holds. Lately I just call it the 'grab arts' as Kajukenbo does. What I know of EPAK, they incooperate the grab arts as such and defenses against weapons, how much emphasis is placed on that aspect, you would know much better than I. Essentially, I think we're on the same page. However, I think that what most people mean is the ground grappling aspect, but I could be wrong, it's just my interpretation of it. I have also seen a number of fights go to the ground. I'm not saying any percentage close to that over 90 per cent figure that we hear from BJJ but I do feel a number end up ground grappling. I've heard some in kempo say 20 per cent, again, I don't want to put a number on it unless I researched it more. This is also probably due to intoxication, plus barroom brawls where other bystanders and furniture, etc. may get in the way, not to mention some deal with the winter seasons where there is much ice, snow and sand on the streets, alleyways, parking lots and sidewalks. In any part of the country you also deal with rain slicked streets at times, all presenting a hazzard in trying to maintain one's balance. I'd appreciate your input as always and I hope to see you and Matt again at Hanshi Seavey's this coming January for the seminar. Take care and always respectfully submitted.

[Karazenpo]

KenpoJoe, I almost forget. I totally agree with the boxing aspect of the old pioneers and founders of the Hawaiian-derived kempo systems. Most all that I've heard of had a boxing background plus I'm going to guess that with boxing popular with the armed forces that many of our soldiers 'unwinding' with a weekend off and some 'stress relief', lol, probably got into their share of fights with some of the natives. Hawaii, itself, was the home of several professional boxing icons of that era.