Ramblings on Symposium DVD reviews

[DoxN4cer]

I posted this on an ealier thread, but no replies... What's up, did you guys get your videos and haven't watched them yet?

It's been nearly a month since the last post on the Symposium videos, and nobody but Bram has offered up a review. What's up? Are you guys still digesting what's there, or are you still waiting for your copies? I know that George always sends out a quality product. I'm curious to hear what everybody thought about the presentations.

Tim Kashino

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by DoxN4cer
I posted this on an ealier thread, but no replies... What's up, did you guys get your videos and haven't watched them yet?

It's been nearly a month since the last post on the Symposium videos, and nobody but Bram has offered up a review. What's up? Are you guys still digesting what's there, or are you still waiting for your copies? I know that George always sends out a quality product. I'm curious to hear what everybody thought about the presentations.

Tim Kashino

Tim,

To be honest, no I have not watched them. For all the stuff that happened behind the scenes did leave a bad taste in my mouth, and I wanted time to go by first before I review it, to be as fair and open minded as possible.

Regards

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons
Tim,

To be honest, no I have not watched them. For all the stuff that happened behind the scenes did leave a bad taste in my mouth, and I wanted time to go by first before I review it, to be as fair and open minded as possible.

Regards

Agreed! If you remember bring it to the camp. I'll have my laptop with me so we can watch it.

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by Renegade
Agreed! If you remember bring it to the camp. I'll have my laptop with me so we can watch it.

Cool...I'll watch it then too, and I'll offer my review.

:asian:

[Rich Parsons]

Well guys I actually bought the Video Tapes, and you may watch it with me.:cool:

[DoxN4cer]

OK... how about anybody else on the MT forum that may have purchased a set? Anybody out there?

Tim Kashino

[Dan Anderson]

Yes, I got a set of the DVDs. The filming was fine and th presentations caught the essence of what was presented at the Symposium. An interesting point to bring up here is the differences in teaching methods of the presenters. Along with the techniques, the methods of each individual was one of the things I liked most about the DVD set. All in all, they are a good buy.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

[DoxN4cer]

Originally posted by Dan Anderson
Yes, I got a set of the DVDs. The filming was fine and th presentations caught the essence of what was presented at the Symposium. An interesting point to bring up here is the differences in teaching methods of the presenters. Along with the techniques, the methods of each individual was one of the things I liked most about the DVD set. All in all, they are a good buy.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

Have you got anything specific to say about each of the presentations, Dan?

Tim

[Dan Anderson]

I'm at the office and will need to go over the DVDs again.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons
Tim,

To be honest, no I have not watched them. For all the stuff that happened behind the scenes did leave a bad taste in my mouth, and I wanted time to go by first before I review it, to be as fair and open minded as possible.

Regards


To be fair though to George, I am sure they are of the highest Quality, if they are similar to those produced by George for Bram Frank.

:asian:

[Red Blade]

I thouhgt some of you might find this interesting!




Hello to All Forum Members,

I have completed my review of the entire 2003 International Modern Arnis Symposisum DVD set and I was very impressed with the production, lighting editing and content. If there is a problem with any of the first three mentioned items then the last one - content, is meaningless. George, you did good!!

Because I was the host/sponsor, I waited to see what others had to say about the both the Symposium and the DVD's; that has now happened and it is appropriate for me to speak up without feeling like I "selling" my own accomplishments.

The instructional presentations were well done for the most part. All of the people were recorded and then presented sans editing and splicing. That's a good thing because each presentation is completely in context. It is true that some people were picked up at the begining of their particular presentation and others were picked up in mid-presentation, however with only one camera on the floor that was unavoidable. On the other hand, no one who was recorded has been misrepresented. It was very clear to me as I reviewed the DVDs that those people who were really talented, knowledgable and creative stood out.

There are some very intersting tidbits of information on the Symposium DVD Series, Bram Frank, Dan Anderson and Tom Bolden, stood out as the better known "names" entering the Symposium weekend. Tim Kashino, Peter Vargas, John Ralston, Dawud Muhammad and Paul Martin, earned kudos for their work at the Symposium and as "unknowns", they showed a great deal of presence, skill and knowledge. Collectively, everyone of the above mentioned people made the 2003 Modern Arnis Symposium a success. I urge everyone to buy a set of DVDs.

There was a lot of crapping and bad-mouthing about the Symposium BEFORE the event even happened. Some others, bad mouthed the event afterwards, in spite of the fact they did not attend event and therefore they did not have ANY first hand knowledge about what went on there!

It's a damn shame that so many Modern Arnis people stayed home rather than attend the Symposium. Their non-attendance speaks volumes about just how far apart the various factions within the art really are and in all likelihood will remain for some time to come. When the different factions of the IMAF, Marppio and bulk of the WMAA leadership are absent from the event and the WMAA's lead instructor can not get even a single student from his own hometown to attend the Symposium which was being held in his hometown - there can be no doubt that Modern Arnis is an organizationally fractionalized art.

The good news is that the people on the DVD Series are showing us just how beautiful, adaptive and functional Modern Arnis really is. They give us a glimpse into the possiblities that the late Professor Remy Presas forged into the foundations of his art. As an art the only limitations on Modern Arnis are defined by the limitations that each individual player places on him/herself or allows other to place on them. The presenters named above easily and blithfully rose about an self imposed limitations and that is what makes the Symposium DVD Series so valuble. It gives all of us who wish to see some new perspectives on the art, a window into the past that became the future. These people are not looking back, they are looking forward. With all proper recognition, respect and reverence due to Professor Presas, the 2003 Modern Arnis Symposium I, was meant to serve as an acknowledgement of the debt that we owed to the founder, yet it was also held to serve notice that the Modern Arnis is still a vibrant expression of creative self development.

Call George Denson at 1-800-340-9664, order a set of these DVDs and recapture the feeling of what you were part of or if you did not attend, what you missed! Don't be afraid to see what others are doing and how they are building on the foundations first laid down by the late Founder/GM. He was constantly admonishing us all to "make it for yourself!' These people have done just that and they are not finished with their work.

The 2003 International Modern Arnis Symposium I, DVD Series is a must have because We MADE History that weekend in July, at Erie Community College, in Buffalo, NY. The Symposium event has very little likelihood of ever being replicated again in our lifetimes! The fissure lines are that great and the mistrust is that strong! Unless there is a phenomenal change of attitudes among some significant people in leadership positions, the 2003 International Modern Arnis Symposium I, was the first and last of it's kind within the art. I hope that I am wrong, but that is why I stated right from the begining, I stated that I was only doing this system-wide symposium thing ONCE! Now the task, if it is ever undertaken again, will belong to some else!

Therefore and with all that I have stated above, I implore every person who was at the Symposium and everyone who wishes that they had attended, as well as those who are simply interested in Modern Arnis, to contact George Denson and buy your own set of DVDs, because this event is a vital piece of martial arts - Modern Arnis history.

BTW, I would hope that people will copy this post and send it to every Modern Arnis person, bulletin board, discussion list and forum that they know. Get the word out, people, history was made and recorded on July 12 and 13, 2003, at Erie Community College in Buffalo, NY and now everyone can own a piece of it; call George Denson at 1-800-340-9664.

Respectfully,

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.
Paradigm Escrima-Kenpo-Arnis
_________________
DoctorB

[DoxN4cer]

Well here's my two cents... I'll be going in order of appearance:

Paul Martin, one of my old training partners, disscussed and demonstrated some differences in training orientation between technical and tactical methods. He showed a couple of drills as example of tactical training. In his subsequent appearences on the DVDs he follows up on his initial line of reasoning, adding western style boxing, the bob and weave with head butting and still later the de Kadena drill with flowing into joint locks and escapes from arm bars and wrist grabs. A very creative approach to Modern Arnis.

Dieter Knuttel, opened with a full session on tapi-tapi instruction. he moved very fast and worked very hard. He was able to explain everything as he went along and he got a lot of things covered within his session. In his later appearences he slows the pace a bit, but he is very thorough in his presentations and explainations. He worked on stick to stick disarns and added some subtle touches of his own to the Professor's basic formulas.

Dawud Muhammad, opened his session with the solo stick which progressed to the single knife, and then empty hand tactics right off of the single stick. His footwok and body shifting was excellent and indicative of someone with a strong kenpo and knife fighting background. He was very composed and effective as a teacher, He clearly explained what he wanted everyone to do and why they should be doing it.

Peter Vargas, taught a very high quality version of the Taboada Style of Balintawak and American Modern Arnis. He provided his students with a quick, abbreviated but very accurate training experience with the GM Bobby Taboada's version of the Sinawali boxing drills. In his second presentation ge added what he called "entries" the previous boxing drills that included elbow strikes to the inner and outer forearm, chest and face area. His last session involved Balintawak / AMAA stick disrms. Peter provided a very effective program of instruction.

Dan Anderson, founder of MA-80, taught counters to the standard Modern arnis disarms. These counters are quite similar to Professor's, but Dan has added his own personal touches and boy do they work! In his second appearence Dan was teaching empty hand approaches to self defense in terms of countering attacks and creating takedowns and throws using the entire body to knock the opponent off-balance facilitating the "heel hook" takedowns that the Professor was always so fond of. He also showed some really good joint-lock reversals. Over-all it was a very positive and exciting program that should be seen.

Bram Frank, taught the opening sequence to his new modular instructional program that is designed to train the trainers of military and polic units. A fast paced yet simple program. Since most of what Bram teaches is oriented around the knife, he has a very different approach to Modern Arnis than the majority of instructors. He knows very well that there is not a simple linear transition from stick to knife. The knife is very unforgiving for someone's failure to keep their own body away from the path that the knife is taking. The second apparence served as a follow up to the first and it was a great opportunity for us to ask some questions and innovate on some of the material taught earlier.

Tom Bolden, began his first presentation with a primer on arnis stick blocking using a circular pattern that covers the entire body and is augemented by the checking hand.(If anybody out there was ever on the receiving end of one of Tom's checks, you'd think he had a hammer in hand... ouch). Then he added very definate movement patterns to the stick and checking hand to make the blocks-counters highly effective. A lot of people talk about movement, but Tom does it, and his students do it...very well. Tom's American Modern Arnis is a movement based system. In his second appearence, Bolden, showed us a series of movements that always kept his stick in the correct area to effective for blocking and countering. His movement schemes provided power and speed to his stick strikes, blocks, punches and kicks. He also brought the most sought after tee-shirt to the Symposium. It read "Arnis Excellence; Skill is Rank"; a maxim that Tom embraces and embodies.

John Ralston, conducted just one training session. He added pressure point striking to the art of disarming. The points were centered on the stick hand, wrist, forearm, bicep and tricep areas. These were the standard stuff that professor had taught for nearly three decades, but the addition of specific pressure points to the disarming methods really kicked it up a notch or two. It was an excellent block of instruction.

Side note: Richard Curren, another old training partner of mine, taught a session on the first night that was not captured on tape. It's a shame because what he showed on the only Friday evening session was very smooth, well coordinated and effective. He covered a knife flow drill that was really challenging and focused on body positioning and the live hand to avoid the bite of the blade.

DVD #5 contains the passing out of the certificates to the instructors. It was a very nice and rather informal presentation with very little distinction made between the instructors. This is a very good represetation of how the entire Symposium was handled. Everyone one was given equal opportunities to show their own version of how they believe that Modern Arnis could be done. It was an open event, and with the exception of Dan Anderson, Tom Bolden, Richard Curren and John Ralston, everyone had three sessions that they taught. It's hard to say that there was a favorite person or version of the art indicated at this event. The chief objective of the Symposium was met - showing the diversity that exists within Modern Arnis.

I highly recommend the material on the videos for anybody who wasn't there or who is curious about Modern Arnis and wants a broader view of the art.

Submitted respectfully,

Tim Kashino


BTW: For those of you who are speculating about my handle:

"Dox" - as in wharf or pier i.e. referring to the Navy
"N4cer" - military police.

Get the picture? Stop assuming.

[bloodwood]

DrB's review of the symposium dvd series isn't much of a review at all, it's more like his version of what's wrong with Modern Arnis. Attitudes like that ARE what's wrong with Modern Arnis. Maybe when he gets the thorn out of his foot he can write a real review.

When someone not associated with all the nonsense that happened at the symposium writes a review, then I'll trust that it's not biased and get a true take on what was presented there.

bloodwood

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by DoxN4cer
Well here's my two cents... I'll be going in order of appearance: . . .

DVD #5 contains the passing out of the certificates to the instructors. It was a very nice and rather informal presentation with very little distinction made between the instructors. This is a very good represetation of how the entire Symposium was handled. Everyone one was given equal opportunities to show their own version of how they believe that Modern Arnis could be done. It was an open event, and with the exception of Dan Anderson, Tom Bolden, Richard Curren and John Ralston, everyone had three sessions that they taught. It's hard to say that there was a favorite person or version of the art indicated at this event. The chief objective of the Symposium was met - showing the diversity that exists within Modern Arnis.

I highly recommend the material on the videos for anybody who wasn't there or who is curious about Modern Arnis and wants a broader view of the art.

Submitted respectfully,

Tim Kashino


BTW: For those of you who are speculating about my handle:

"Dox" - as in wharf or pier i.e. referring to the Navy
"N4cer" - military police.

Get the picture? Stop assuming.

Tim,

Stop Assuming, I am Assuming anything about you. ;)


My Apologies everyone :soapbox:

Ths instruction that I saw at the camp was fine and I did learn. I amsure the Video's and DVD's are just fine in quality and in production.

Yet, the diveristy within Modern Arnis, was not truly shown. The Diversity of MArtial Arts yes, NOT Modern Arnis. Many of the people on the bill were not there. And do not pretend to think that they all just cancelled at the last moment. Many communicated there intentions weeks if not months before the event. I was not able to see those I wanted to and paid to see. I did see a lot of friends and associates of Jerome Barber, and Paul Janulis added late as well. Kenpo and Taboada Style of Balintawak et al are not Modern Arnis per se.

Yes there were Modern Arnis practitioners there, such as Dan Anderson and Dieter Knuttel, and Tim Hartman, and even Bram Frank, to name many of the highly known names in Modern Arnis. Yet at lunch time, when no time, for lunch, was scheduled Dan, Dieter and Tim were all teaching. this led to many people just to leave and get food during this session. I also saw that many of a certain group would not be on the floor unless their instructor or associated instructor was teaching and then they would participate.

So, Yes, I enjoyed myself most of the time. Yes, I was able to train most of time except for Bram's first session where I left to get something to eat and keep my blood sugar in order. I wanted to make sure I caught Dieter in the next session the normal lunch time. Yes, most of those I saw or trained with had some talent and knowledge. Yet, the symposium was not what I would call a successful event. So, I care not what anyone says, about it. The host and the scheduling and the information flow from the host was atrocious.

So, Tim K. no disrespect to you, yet I paid to see one thing and was given something else wihtout being told. And yes, even three months later I am still upset by this. The lack respect by Jerome and his childish games were something that I will not let be forgotten. Oh, Yes go see these people who taught here. Yes, most definitely go to Dieter's in Germany, yet that is an FMA event not just a Modern Arnis event, or a Modern Arnis event wiht a guest or two instructor. I will not allow the perception the Jerome Barber did even an average job on this event. For you see, I paid the price he asked for and did not get what I was told was there. I also found out her knew about the cancelations way before hand and did not tell people. He stated at the camp that tehy were all last minute during the last couple of days leading up to the camp. He also stated insults, and threats (* some Poised as jokes, yet . . .*), about people there and not there.

Like, I said, see these people for what they are, and train with them. Just realize that Panci Panci and Taboada Style of Balintawak and Kenpo are not Modern Arnis. All of those styles are fine and you can learn a lot, just not a Modern Arnis Symposium in my mind. So, say it was nice to see those teaching. Great! Do not even begin to imply that event it self was a good event and anything like it by Jerome should be held again. I am not pleased with how I was treated before and during and after the event.

I apologize to George the DVD producer, and those reading this thread. My Comments are not negative about his production work or event the work he taped. Buy the tapes or DVD's, you can learn some good stuff. George is an excellant guy. I was short on cash and he gave me four of Bram's DVD's that he produced, and told me to sent him a check when I got home. For his professionalism I have not apprehensions of recomending anything he puts his name too. I am serious, buy his products and see for yourself some good information being taught.


Off my :soapbox: and back to thread


_________________________________________________
Please, just because I am the Moderator of this forum, this does not mean I do not have to follow the rules. If anyone believes I have not followed the rules, then use the Report this Post Button, state your concern and it will be addressed. Or send a PM to Arnisador, Kaith Rustaz, or Cthulhu, and they will address it as well. :asian:
_________________________________________________

[bloodwood]

Sometimes silence tells the story. The lack of in depth responses about the symposium is a good indicator of this. If you have nothing good to say, say nothing at all.

I am surprised at the response given by Rich Parsons. I have known him on this forum to be fairly easy going and respectful of others. For him to post such a critical response about the venue and the host says quite a bit. As I have said, I believe him to be fair so I have to believe that what he has stated is pretty accurate.

Although he is a moderator on this forum he still has the right to express his thoughts on an event that he attended. I do not believe he has crossed the line of good taste. I think he is just telling it like he saw it. It has been a good while since the symposium so he has had plenty of time not to be annoyed. But he still is, so he must really believe in what he is posting.

bloodwood

[arnisador]

Dr. Barber's review does seem somewhat...biased.

Of course, I was not at the event.

[DoxN4cer]

Regarless of Dr. Barber's review and people hurt feelings, there is a good deal of material that many people may find interesting and worth their while to obtain. It seems that this thread has become a "Barber-Bashing" party. Dr. Barber's review of the symposium from another forum is one thing, an honest review of the DVDs is another. While the two subjects are "linked", one has as much to do with each other as much as apples and oranges are similar only in the fact that they are both classified as fruit.

Bloodwood, if you had a problem with Dr. Barber's review why not address it in the forum it came from? Why not just start a forum dedcated to bashing Dr. Barber rather than disrupt positve exchanges here that wouldn't be such a waste of bandwidth?

I asked for an honest review of the the videos, not for your opinion of Dr. Barber. I already know what you opinion of him is, as does everyone else that reads this forum.


Originally posted by Rich Parsons
Tim,

Stop Assuming, I am Assuming anything about you. ;)

My Apologies everyone :soapbox:

Ths instruction that I saw at the camp was fine and I did learn. I amsure the Video's and DVD's are just fine in quality and in production...

...So, Tim K. no disrespect to you, yet I paid to see one thing and was given something else wihtout being told. And yes, even three months later I am still upset by this. The lack respect by Jerome and his childish games were something that I will not let be forgotten...

...I apologize to George the DVD producer, and those reading this thread. My Comments are not negative about his production work or event the work he taped. Buy the tapes or DVD's, you can learn some good stuff. George is an excellant guy... I am serious, buy his products and see for yourself some good information being taught.

Off my :soapbox: and back to thread


I don't know, are you? Rich, that statement is for everyone who may feel that there something afoot. I just put that out there to clear up any misconceptions as to my user ID. I was contacted privately on a few occasions as to the meaning underneath it.

No offense taken on my part, Rich. I'm still a little annoyed as well, but I prefer to focus on the positive aspects of the event rather than stew over the things that transpired behind te scenes. I don't fault you for speaking your mind, but it's over.

I recomend the DVDs to anyone who wants to see the "art within tour art" fully illustrated on video. It can be said that it was not stricly a MA event. However, regardless of each individual's approach and backround, every instructor (each of which was personally certified by the Professor himself) brought his own flavor to the event. Remember fellas, MA is an eclectic system. To argue the "purity" of the material is irrelavent in light of that fact.

Tim Kashino

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by DoxN4cer
Regarless of Dr. Barber's review and people hurt feelings, there is a good deal of material that many people may find interesting and worth their while to obtain. It seems that this thread has become a "Barber-Bashing" party. Dr. Barber's review of the symposium from another forum is one thing, an honest review of the DVDs is another. While the two subjects are "linked", one has as much to do with each other as much as apples and oranges are similar only in the fact that they are both classified as fruit.


Question Tim, How many of those associated with Jerome Barber who were not treaching were present?

Hurt Feelings? Yes, You could say my feelings are hurt, I was treated like dirt and I am not talking about the extra curricular activities around Norshadow. I paid and expected onething and was delivered something else, and told my Jerome he knew nothing of it. When I found out either the day before, and I was already in Buffalo, or a couple of days before that someone of the people would be not there. So, Yes I have hurt feelings, just not over what you are assuming though.


Originally posted by DoxN4cer
Bloodwood, if you had a problem with Dr. Barber's review why not address it in the forum it came from? Why not just start a forum dedcated to bashing Dr. Barber rather than disrupt positve exchanges here that wouldn't be such a waste of bandwidth?


A new forum for the defamation of a single person is not desired. I post or two of my opinion of how someone handled themselves is fine, in my opinion


Originally posted by DoxN4cer
I asked for an honest review of the the videos, not for your opinion of Dr. Barber. I already know what you opinion of him is, as does everyone else that reads this forum.


Tim, I apologize if my opinion of Jerome Barber upsets you. The only person I feel the same about is Jeff Delaney. Jeff told me I had no rank and had to pay to join his website and to pay him money (* Lots of Money *) to be retested. This was at the Michigan Camp before the untimely death of GM Remy Presas. He was already trying to align people to just him at this point. To be honest at this same Camp. Dr. Randi Schea made a similar statment, yet how it was phrased made all the diference. He commented that everyone would not be testing for a while until everyone we reviewed and their existing rank was true representation of their skills. I respected that, for I have no issues with my skills, nor Dr. Schea's.

So, when people try to put a positive light on either of these two people in a personal realm I give my experiences. Now as I have never trained with either, only watched them work singles with other people I will and cannot comment on their technique.



Originally posted by DoxN4cer
I don't know, are you? Rich, that statement is for everyone who may feel that there something afoot. I just put that out there to clear up any misconceptions as to my user ID. I was contacted privately on a few occasions as to the meaning underneath it.


Tim, I am sorry you received negative questions about your name. I know I never sent you one. Although given the name, and your defense of Jerome I can see where people coudl mistake it. Instead of you just having a military name, and defending an old teacher to try to get everyone to get along.

Trying to get along with most people is also a goal. So, Tim can we both try?


Originally posted by DoxN4cer
No offense taken on my part, Rich. I'm still a little annoyed as well, but I prefer to focus on the positive aspects of the event rather than stew over the things that transpired behind te scenes. I don't fault you for speaking your mind, but it's over.


Tim, as stated above the Norshadow behind the scenes is over. It is the professionalism of information by Jerome Barber. He withheld information about who was teaching. He made comments during the event that I have found himself to contradict in writing on E-Digest since then.

I appriciate you not taking any offense, and I ask you to keep me honest as well.


Originally posted by DoxN4cer
I recomend the DVDs to anyone who wants to see the "art within tour art" fully illustrated on video. It can be said that it was not stricly a MA event. However, regardless of each individual's approach and backround, every instructor (each of which was personally certified by the Professor himself) brought his own flavor to the event. Remember fellas, MA is an eclectic system. To argue the "purity" of the material is irrelavent in light of that fact.

Tim Kashino

Tim, I liked Peter Vargas! He as just not Modern Arnis. He was and is Taboada Style of Balintawak with influence from the American Modern Arnis Alliance with Tom Bolden and his Panci Panci. I did not get a chance to work with Tom Bolden, so no comment, yet I would assume he has something to offer since people do train with him. So when Jerome bradasted this as a Modern Arnis event of all events, and then someone tries to follwo up with a similar statement I try to make it understood it was not. The other organizations either have just their own groups teach or they invite in guest(s) and call then guest them guest instructor(s).



The DVD's/Tapes should be bought. People should see what the instructors offered at this event. If you are looking for someone to do your own DVD's or Tapes then contact George. He also has done Bram Frank's and I have enjoyed them.


Peace and Best Regards
:asian:

[bloodwood]

DrB's review of the symposium was posted here on Martial Talk, and that is where I responded. I'm sorry that his review did not cover the presenters. Maybe he will do another that will cover that. I would be happy to check it out.

I don't think it is fair to the presenters to have Rich be the only one outside of DrB's people to give a review because of the underlying issues that happened to him. His review has bias to it because of it. Also if Tim Hartman or Paul were to post a review, the same tendencies would be there. I'm sure much of what Rich has said is true because I don't believe he would be that adamant about it otherwise. If others that attended were to give an in depth review of the event, not only about the presenters but also about the logistics and the overall experience, we all could get a handle on how it went.
Just remember that just because some makes a statement that is negative doesn't make it false. Others can express their findings and those reading them can sort out the facts.

More than one person saying the same thing says something.

I did not attend the symposium so I will rely on those that did to know how it went. So far all I've seen is negative, even from the camp host. How am I supposed to respond when the host posts an angry review?

[Bob Hubbard]

There are some very intersting tidbits of information on the Symposium DVD Series, Bram Frank, Dan Anderson and Tom Bolden, stood out as the better known "names" entering the Symposium weekend. Tim Kashino, Peter Vargas, John Ralston, Dawud Muhammad and Paul Martin, earned kudos for their work at the Symposium and as "unknowns", they showed a great deal of presence, skill and knowledge. Collectively, everyone of the above mentioned people made the 2003 Modern Arnis Symposium a success. I urge everyone to buy a set of DVDs.

The interesting thing is that to the best of my knowledge, Bram Frank and Tom Bolden are friends of Barbers, as well as business associates. (Barber is a distributor for Brams "Gunting", for example.) Dan Anderson regularly does seminars with Barber when he is in town. The endorement lacks impartiality.

Additionally, Tim Kashino & Paul Martin are or were students of Barbers. Both Vargas and Muhammad have or had a business relationship with Barber. I am unaware of what relationship there is with Mr. Ralston.

All of those cited by Dr. Barber as being exceptional are in some way connected to him. Those he does not mention, are not. The 'Rub' being given in this review smacks of 'good ol boy'ness.


When the different factions of the IMAF, Marppio and bulk of the WMAA leadership are absent from the event and the WMAA's lead instructor can not get even a single student from his own hometown to attend the Symposium which was being held in his hometown - there can be no doubt that Modern Arnis is an organizationally fractionalized art.

The instructors I was interested in seeing bailed, and the majority of those placed on the bill held little interest to me given the lack of Arnis flavor. I train with Tim, and support his events. I've seen Dan at a few camps and am currently (slowly) working through his books. The only 'name' in the Arnis world that was still on the bill, and made it in was Dieter. I regret not spending more time chatting with him when I had the chance b4 the event. The rest of the bill either were outside my areas of interest, or weren't Arnis. I wanted to see Kelly Worden, Dan M. and a few of the other names who dropped out. The replacements didn't interest me, competent though they were.

I think a more important point here is, for an event that was so big, the fact that the 'names' and players choose to avoid it speaks volumes. Dr.B did get 2 outta the 6 Datus to instruct. But Kelly and Tim are regularly doing that. There were no Presas' there...They were at Kellys. Of the US based organizations, neither IMAF faction, nor the WMAC had a leadship presence. Only the WMAA was there in person. Dieter represented Germany...but where was the Philipians rep? At Kellys.

So, given the choice between training with a few folks I've already seen, and the replacement B team, or doing something fun, exciting and possibly profitable, I picked the later.

I went to Toronto and spent some time chatting with Chris Owens and Jason Carter. (Warning, Chris is now considered a pixie-stick addict and assumed goofy. Approach with caution. ) :)

The debacle that happened behind the scenes afterward only reinforced my own attitude that it was the right thing to do. I'm sure the training that went on on the floor was excellent. Its the game playing and other BS that went on for over a year thats left a sour taste in my own mouth where Barber and his events are concerned. His suspension will be up on the 18th.

I haven't seen the videos themselves. Hopefully I'll have a chance to do so soon, and we can hope for a review in the magazine.


Oh...as to the "names" bit...see here: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?&threadid=8298
Its old, but still interesting on just how well 'known' folks are online.

Peas. (Green, mashed) :D

[DoxN4cer]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons

A new forum for the defamation of a single person is not desired. I post or two of my opinion of how someone handled themselves is fine, in my opinion...

Tim, I apologize if my opinion of Jerome Barber upsets you. The only person I feel the same about is Jeff Delaney. Jeff told me I had no rank and had to pay to join his website and to pay him money (* Lots of Money *) to be retested...

... So, when people try to put a positive light on either of these two people in a personal realm I give my experiences. Now as I have never trained with either, only watched them work singles with other people I will and cannot comment on their technique.

... Trying to get along with most people is also a goal. So, Tim can we both try?

... I appriciate you not taking any offense, and I ask you to keep me honest as well.

The DVD's/Tapes should be bought. People should see what the instructors offered at this event. If you are looking for someone to do your own DVD's or Tapes then contact George. He also has done Bram Frank's and I have enjoyed them.


Hmmm, where to start... Let me beigin by saying that I am not an appologist for Dr. Barber. Your opinion, or anyone else's, of Dr. Barber does not up set me. All the the chatter on the forum about him isn't necessary. It seems as though once one person metions his name, everybody jumps on the wagon and commences to name-bashing. Not exactly a classy thing to do, considering that he has been suspended from this forum... really a class act.

I don't take offense at what you have to say, Rich. Contrary to public opinion, I'm a pretty easy going guy. I just don't understand why people waste their bandwidth and time focusing so much negative energy on a man who is basically out of the equation.

Red Blade saw fit to drag Dr. Barber's review over to MT from another forum, and began the Barber bashing. Dr. Barber was not the focus of this thread. A constructive review of the symposium videos was the focus. I'll bet if I started a thread with nothing else but his name in the text block I would find the same general attitude there would be a number of people seizing the opportunity to sat something negative just because I mentioned his name. Really classy.

What do you mean "can we both try?" Am I antagonizing anyone? Am I not playing nice? I feel that I'm being rather objective about it all, and everyone else is taking shots at someone who is no longer in the picture.

Like I said, I try to focus on the positive occurances from that event. Your choice to focus on the negative is unfortunate and unecessary, but is nice to see that you recommend the videos to the general public as well.

Tim Kashino

[DoxN4cer]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
The 'Rub' being given in this review smacks of 'good ol boy'ness.

Just an observation, Bob... the same could be said about this forum.

Tim

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by DoxN4cer
Hmmm, where to start... Let me beigin by saying that I am not an appologist for Dr. Barber. Your opinion, or anyone else's, of Dr. Barber does not up set me. All the the chatter on the forum about him isn't necessary. It seems as though once one person metions his name, everybody jumps on the wagon and commences to name-bashing. Not exactly a classy thing to do, considering that he has been suspended from this forum... really a class act.


Tim, Well it may be bad form to talk bad about someone being suspended. Yet, you yourself and he can contact others to reply, since he has done this before. So, you see I forgot he was suspended since it seem liked he here from time to time.

And As to the Class Act, I believe otherwise.


Originally posted by DoxN4cer
I don't take offense at what you have to say, Rich. Contrary to public opinion, I'm a pretty easy going guy. I just don't understand why people waste their bandwidth and time focusing so much negative energy on a man who is basically out of the equation.


Jerome basically out of the equation. Well he left in 1994, decided to make a play and did not do well. Negative energy, maybe bad, yet it has helped me to find out why I am not happy with his actions. So, expressing it here, has helped me. Yes, a very personal a non-gradiouse aspect of myself.

Tim, I asked you to join. I say your reactions and attitude toward being at the symposium to practice and t teach, and did not transpose anything from Jerome to you.


Originally posted by DoxN4cer
Red Blade saw fit to drag Dr. Barber's review over to MT from another forum, and began the Barber bashing. Dr. Barber was not the focus of this thread. A constructive review of the symposium videos was the focus. I'll bet if I started a thread with nothing else but his name in the text block I would find the same general attitude there would be a number of people seizing the opportunity to sat something negative just because I mentioned his name. Really classy.


Tim, your tone and choice of words, be saying Say Fit and Drag are negative also. The Post by Jerome was negative. Yet, to be honest, I did not read te Jerome post until after my first reply to you. It was your post that made it seem like the symposium event was a complete success. In some ways it was sucessful, in others it was not. Just not a complete sucess.

Yes, if you started a thread with Jerome Barber or Jeff Delaney in Modern Arnis, I personally would have nothing (* good *) to say. I do not insult their organizations or thier students or anyone who trains with or works with them. I just give you my opinion of these people, as I see it.


Originally posted by DoxN4cer
What do you mean "can we both try?" Am I antagonizing anyone? Am I not playing nice? I feel that I'm being rather objective about it all, and everyone else is taking shots at someone who is no longer in the picture.


Tim, you are not antagonizing me. You claim to be neutral. I claim to be nuetral in most instances, and have identified most if nto all of the areas I would not be neutral. As Arnisador, stated I am biased and it is unfair to only have my opinion. I was asking for you to work with me to keep me honest, and I will do the same for you, inthe area such as above where your choice of words seem just as negative.


Originally posted by DoxN4cer
Like I said, I try to focus on the positive occurances from that event. Your choice to focus on the negative is unfortunate and unecessary, but is nice to see that you recommend the videos to the general public as well.

Tim Kashino

Positive occurances from that event. I got to meet Bram Frank and Dieter Knuttle and other people who showed up to train. I was able to see old friends such as Dan Anderson, and Tim Hartman, and Jason Arnold, and Paul.

There were lots of nice people in the attendance, who, I met and as well, those selling products.

Tim, do you know the answer to one of the questions I asked earlier? about people not training, unless certain instructors were on the floor? Send it PM if you want.

Best Regards

[Bob Hubbard]

Originally posted by DoxN4cer
Just an observation, Bob... the same could be said about this forum.

Tim

It could be..but wouldn't be anywhere near as true. Kelly Worden and I are not anywhere near the 'warm n fuzzy' stage. Yet the main reason I was interested in the Symp. was to meet him. Despite the few personal differences between us, I do respect him as a martial artist. Tims my instructor. I make no secrets of that. Dan is a contributor to MT Magazine, so I have a business relationship there. If I think either are wrong, I've let em both know. Barber claims Tim didn't do squat to promote the event, yet -every- class I was in for month leading up it was mentioned, as well as the flyer hanging clearly on the news board.

The simple truth is that of all the major US orgs, only the WMAA was there, and were repayed by Barbers little game of one-upmanship. Its a case of someone who doesn't have much 'pull' in the Arnis world trying to be the big fish, and the real big fish mostly ignored him.

Another point is that even with 3 of the 4 Top names in the Arnis world (Dan, Dieter and Tim) at the event, it still failed to be the 'event of the century' as it was billed. Purhaps more time should have been spent on promotion (a web site woulda been nice as a central clearing house of information) and organization (Food Good) than the behind the scenes crap involving Barber and a few of his students. Maybe letting people know about changes in a timely manner? But thats more a reflection of the character of the organizer (who double booked himself on events and never told the MT camp host he wasn't coming until cornered and asked) than the quality of the event. (Anyone who thinks I'm being harsh and is a late comer here, do a search on the term "Norshadow"...it'll be clear.)

Those who were there seem to agree that the floor was a good place, and that the video is good. I look forward to borrowing a set and seeing for myself.

Now...do we continue to rehash the BS, or can we focus on some more video reviews of this event?

:asian:

[DoxN4cer]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
Those who were there seem to agree that the floor was a good place, and that the video is good. I look forward to borrowing a set and seeing for myself.

Now...do we continue to rehash the BS, or can we focus on some more video reviews of this event?



Yes, Bob. Let's do that. I've allowed myself to be distracted from the original post long enough. It was some of your "good ol' boys" that pushed the conversation off course in the first place. Thanks for pushing it back on track.

The heart of the matter is that there was some very excellent instruction at the Symposium, and it is a fortunate thing that it was all caught on video.

Tim Kashino

[DoxN4cer]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons
Tim, I asked you to join. I say your reactions and attitude toward being at the symposium to practice and teach, and did not transpose anything from Jerome to you.


Well that's nice to know, Rich. There are others who would still judge me otherwise, not that their opinion matters.


Tim, you are not antagonizing me. You claim to be neutral. I claim to be nuetral in most instances, and have identified most if nto all of the areas I would not be neutral. As Arnisador, stated I am biased and it is unfair to only have my opinion. I was asking for you to work with me to keep me honest, and I will do the same for you, inthe area such as above where your choice of words seem just as negative.

I see... So let's try this: Can we discuss the Symposium and the videos without reference to Dr. Barber? Is that too much to ask for? I mean, I'm trying to bring attention to the positive aspects of the event, and prety much all I get in return is B.M.W. about Dr. Barber this... Dr. Barber that... not just from you, Paul and Tim, but from some of the "good ol' boys" who weren't even there. So you all have determined that he (Dr. Barber) was not a positive aspect of the event, OK, let's move on.

Tim Kashino

[DoxN4cer]

Originally posted by bloodwood
More than one person saying the same thing says something.

Why, yes... it does. There's only one person doing all of the thinking. It's easier to let someone do the thinking for you, isn't it. You don't have to form your own opinions or do your own research. How wonderful... group-think can be.

It could mean that many of them are wagon riders and don't have an original thought in their heads. They just go running off at the mouth like parrots...

Ah, I digress... pardon the rant...

Tim Kashino

[Dan Anderson]

Sorry to interrupt the battling but here's some hard data about the Symposium DVDs. Here's the line up -
Disc 1 (the time is on my own DVD player and is after the intro)
Paul Martin 0:01.00
Dieter Knuettel 0:12.42
Paul Janulis 0:27.26
Dawud Muhammed 0:32:00
Peter Vargas 0:49:55
Tim Kashino 0:59.18
Disc 2
Bram Frank 0:00.59
Tom Bolder 0:11:18
Paul Martin 0:20.47
Dieter Knuettel 0:32.43
Tim Hartman 0:48:11
Dan Anderson 0:58.15
Disc 3
Tim Kashino 0:00.55
Bram Frank 0:07.27
Peter Vargas 0:18.57
Serrada Sekrima demonstration 0:24.34
Dawud Muhammed 1:02.07
Disc 4
Tim Kashino 0:00.58
Dieter Knuettel 0:16.03
Peter Vargas 0:29.12
Tim Hartman 0:38.11
John Ralston 0:54.49
Disc 5
Tom Bolden 0:02.46
Dan Anderson 0:24.46
Paul Martin 0:45.23
Awards 1:04

Kaith, I have only done a couple of seminars for Jerome as I have also done a number of seminars that Tim has set up for me. As I have a personal relationship with each, please don't lump me into any real or unreal faction here (except the MA-80 Boosters Club. I'm a proud member of that fine group. Wonderful fellows, they are.:D). That's all, folks.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

[arnisador]

Thanks for the info. Mr. Anderson!

[Dan Anderson]

Arnisador,
You're welcome.

Gents,
The Symposium was what it was. As a presenter and student, it went well. It was the first of its kind so there were flies in the ointment but there was ointment. Lots of different perspectives on basically the same art. It wasn't totally and strictly Modern Arnis. It wasn't totally and strictly FMA with no Modern Arnis. There were instructors who said they'd make it and then didn't. First event blues. But there was good training to be had.

A big hats of to both Dieter Knuettel who came in from Germany and to Bram Frank who commands a much higher fee than pro bono work.

Also, the non-famous did as good a job as the "infamous" (I couldn't resist that one :rofl: ).

We can all *****, piss and moan about who said what and what wasn't there but I prefer to think about what we did and who was there. The DVDs reflect the training at the camp and I still say for the price, they are a steal.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

PS - My teaching section was the best. That's worth the price of the discs set alone! :D
PPS - It's time to lighten up guys...but it really was the best. :D

[Rich Parsons]

Instructors crossed continents and oceans to arrive and teach for nothing.

Students came from more than half across the continent to train.

I was able to meet old friends and make new ones.


;)

[DoxN4cer]

Originally posted by Dan Anderson

We can all *****, piss and moan about who said what and what wasn't there but I prefer to think about what we did and who was there. The DVDs reflect the training at the camp and I still say for the price, they are a steal.



Well said, Dan. Right on.


Tim Kashino

[DoxN4cer]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons
Instructors crossed continents and oceans to arrive and teach for nothing.

That in itself is truly remarkable and rare. You don't see that every day.



Tim Kashino

[Emptyglass]

Hi all:

I've refrained from posting here as (sadly) I don't yet own a set of the DVDs, although that is something I will correct within the month (:$). However, I was at the Symposium and can testify to the quality of the instruction that was there.

In regards to not being all Modern Arnis, I challenge anyone out there to get every Modern Arnis player to agree what consists of official "Modern Arnis". It's an eclectic art folks. The Professor was constantly picking up new techniques and playing with old ones to make them better.

He changed the way he did things in the time that I knew him, even down to the way he did his abecedario with 12 strikes. Sometimes strikes were forehand first in the pattern, sometimes backhand.

As for anyone who thinks that Balintawak as GM Bobby Taboada learned and teaches it wasn't an influence on the way Modern Arnis was developed, if you had seen the Professor and GM Bobby go off into a corner in North Carolina at Irwin Carmichael's school (in '92? '93?) as we trained with Rick Mitchell and we strained to see what was going on while not getting our brains knocked out by ourselves or each other, you might change your mind. I certainly see the connections now.

As a proud attendee of the Symposium, I think the people and instructors who couldn't or chose not to attend missed a real treat and a real chance to build bridges rather than burn them (which many Modern Arnis players seem to be quite apt at). In any case I feel that I got my money's worth, and I paid full price in advance.

Since it seems that not to many people have gotten the videos yet, it's not surprising that there is some silence about this topic. Hopefully that will change as people decide to spend some cash on George's fine work (myself included). However, I don't think the silence is damning by any means and if someone is interested in how the instruction was at the Symposium and wants to compare notes or chat about it, I will happily start a new thread all about it.

Salamat po,

Rich Curren

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Emptyglass
. . .
As for anyone who thinks that Balintawak as GM Bobby Taboada learned and teaches it wasn't an influence on the way Modern Arnis was developed, if you had seen the Professor and GM Bobby go off into a corner in North Carolina at Irwin Carmichael's school (in '92? '93?) as we trained with Rick Mitchell and we strained to see what was going on while not getting our brains knocked out by ourselves or each other, you might change your mind. I certainly see the connections now.

. . .
Salamat po,

Rich Curren

Rich Curren,

Remy Presas trained first with Moncal, and then Maranga, and then Bacon. Bacon being the Grand Master of Balintawak.

Now, if you told me the two were exchanging old stories about Remy's class mates (* Tabaoda's Instructors, or Instructor to his instructor *), or that they were both reviewing stuff they had learned. I would agree. If you were to tell me that Bobby was showing Remy some of the stuff added in by his lineage, then I would also agree.

Yet to imply, that Taboada Balintawak influenced Modern Arnis in any significant way, I cannot believe. I will believe that Balintawak as it was taught to Remy by his three instructors, including Anciong Bacon, influenced Modern Arnis.

Rich you would have to show me the move that you thought came from the Taboada Balintawak Lineage and that was not or had not already been taught by Remy as Modern Arnis. Now I agree that Remy could not have taught and infinite entries to an infinites reactions, to an infinite applications, yet his "It is the Same" was a good approach to show how it could be applied all over. Rich Curren do you have a specific example of a technique that was added to the MOdern Arnis Curriculum after Remy and Bobby worked together?

No disrespect to Bobby and his art, or to any of his students. I just do not see where this did effect him. Therefor I am asking for examples please.

Thank You for your input
:asian:

[DoxN4cer]

Ah, here we go way off track again. I can't resist though...


Originally posted by Rich Parsons


...Now, if you told me the two were exchanging old stories about Remy's class mates (* Tabaoda's Instructors, or Instructor to his instructor *), or that they were both reviewing stuff they had learned. I would agree. If you were to tell me that Bobby was showing Remy some of the stuff added in by his lineage, then I would also agree...

...Yet to imply, that Taboada Balintawak influenced Modern Arnis in any significant way, I cannot believe. I will believe that Balintawak as it was taught to Remy by his three instructors, including Anciong Bacon, influenced Modern Arnis...




Rich (Parsons), I was there and that was exactly what they were doing. They played with each other, and I recall GM Taboada commenting that "He (The Professor) hasn't forgotten anything".

Was it GM Taboada's Balintawak that influenced Modern Arnis?

No. However many Modern Arnis people were introduced to GM Taboada in 1992 and began training regularly with him. GM Taboada may not have influenced the Professor's Modern Arnis, but it did have a profound effect on the practice of many Modern Arnis people.

Furthermore, before GM Taboada hit the scene, the Professor hadn't really started the big push of Tapi Tapi being the "end-all/be-all" part of Modern Arnis. I think that this was already in the back of his mind, but working with GM Taboada and other Balintawak exponents appears to have sparked something in him. So you can say that there is atleast "some" influence there, Rich.

However, interms of "whose" Balintawak really influenced Modern Arnis... It's all Bacon's Balintawak, whather or not it is now studied in the grouped or ungrouped methods of learning. The principles of the are remain the same regardless of how it is packaged.

To discount the validity of "Taboada Balintawak" being taught at a Modern Arnis event is not only narrow minded, but also discounts the validity of all Balintawak being taught by anyone within the context of any Modern Arnis framework.

It all came from the same source.


Tim Kashino

Rich Parsons, please e-mail me. I have a message for you.

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by DoxN4cer
Ah, here we go way off track again. I can't resist though...


Tim K second only to the Kenpo guys the Modern Arnis forum here loves to go off track. So, if anyone wants to have the thread split, let me know.



Originally posted by DoxN4cer
Rich (Parsons), I was there and that was exactly what they were doing. They played with each other, and I recall GM Taboada commenting that "He (The Professor) hasn't forgotten anything".


This is nice to hear. Were you there in 1987 at the Michigan Camp when Rocky and Remy gave an excellant display of sitck work, that was more Balintawak deriviative than Main Stream Modern Arnis? So, I know THE MAN (* Remy Presas *) Had it. And yes I say then and before in 1986, and videos from early 80's of semi sparring that was or is Tapi-Tapi with leg strikes. In 1987, I worked with Dr. Randi Schea at a camp as Remy was teaching the basics of this drill then.



Originally posted by DoxN4cer
Was it GM Taboada's Balintawak that influenced Modern Arnis?

No. However many Modern Arnis people were introduced to GM Taboada in 1992 and began training regularly with him. GM Taboada may not have influenced the Professor's Modern Arnis, but it did have a profound effect on the practice of many Modern Arnis people.

Furthermore, before GM Taboada hit the scene, the Professor hadn't really started the big push of Tapi Tapi being the "end-all/be-all" part of Modern Arnis. I think that this was already in the back of his mind, but working with GM Taboada and other Balintawak exponents appears to have sparked something in him. So you can say that there is atleast "some" influence there, Rich.


Tim, I think that the Modern Arnis Community had matured to a point that he could release more to us. Not to just a few people who had trained more wiht him one on one. So, I can see where the time line here supports your comment, and to say the Taboada Balintawak influenced Tapi-Tapi or more likely the Professor's idea to release or teach more.


Originally posted by DoxN4cer
However, interms of "whose" Balintawak really influenced Modern Arnis... It's all Bacon's Balintawak, whather or not it is now studied in the grouped or ungrouped methods of learning. The principles of the are remain the same regardless of how it is packaged.

To discount the validity of "Taboada Balintawak" being taught at a Modern Arnis event is not only narrow minded, but also discounts the validity of all Balintawak being taught by anyone within the context of any Modern Arnis framework.

It all came from the same source.


Tim Kashino

Rich Parsons, please e-mail me. I have a message for you.

Tim, It all came from the same source.

Why then did different people add or subtract techniques and put their name on it, and stil call it Balintwak? Balintawak does not have any formal empty hands, it is up to teh student to see the translation. Balintawak does not have sinawali's nor other drills, (* Excluding Abecedario 1 -12 *), yet Taboada Balintwak has this and more. I have nothing against Bobby for this. Heck this is what Remy Did. Yet, Remy went with a totally new name to avoid this type of discussion. Because he (Remy) wanted to add in more than just what was in Balintawak and teach it. There is no sin in this.

So, by your reasoning, grouped or ungrouped, is the same. Therefore, Modern Arnis from the 60's and the 70's in the PI is the same as that taught in the 70's and 80's here in USA. Also the same as that taught in Europe in the 80's and 90's. So, if it is all the same then why some many different groups? Why as Rich C pointed out that no one can agree what is Modern Arnis. Yet, when asked, people will say yes this in Balintawak or this is Villasin Balintawak, or Moncal Balintawak, or Maranga Tres Special, or Taboada Balintawak. I can tell you why they have the name difference and can make the distinction. These people changed it, added to it, took away from, and then called it their own. So, how can it be all the same. Similar, YES, the same no.

Thanks
:asian:


PS: Tim K working on e-mailing you.

[Cruentus]

To discount the validity of "Taboada Balintawak" being taught at a Modern Arnis event is not only narrow minded, but also discounts the validity of all Balintawak being taught by anyone within the context of any Modern Arnis framework.


I don't think that Rich was discounting anything, but he is calling it like it is. If I host a seminar and pose it as a "Modern Arnis Gathering" with 10 instructors on the bill, but a good % of them are not doing Modern Arnis, but Balintawak, Ponce Ponce Eskrima, Dillman Karate, or what have you, then it is not strictly a "Modern Arnis Gathering." No matter what way you cut it, Toboada's Bilintawak is not Modern Arnis. Hell...it isn't even Bacon's Balintawak speaking in the strict sense, or he wouldn't have added his name to it.

Now, this doesn't discount the "validity" these other arts, and the fact that a large % of what was being taught wasn't strictly Remy Presas wouldn't make it a bad event per say, but it DOES make this more of a Filipino Arts Gathering rather then a "Modern Arnis" Gathering.

That being said...the instructors who were on the bill at first were strictly Modern Arnis from different era's. When they backed out, we needed fillers, and many of the fillers didn't teach strictly Remy Presas Arnis, turning the event into something different then what it was created for.

This is just what happened, regardless of who to blame. But since it happened, lets call it what it was...a Filipino Arts gathering.

[DoxN4cer]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons
... These people changed it, added to it, took away from, and then called it their own. So, how can it be all the same. Similar, YES, the same no.

PS: Tim K working on e-mailing you.

Your comparing the packaging and the window dressing, Rich. Deep down at the core the same fundamental concepts are the same. It is undeniable. Go train with GM Taboada or any other Balintawak guy and see for yourself. The package may look a little different, but the candy inside is the same.


Originally posted by Rich Parsons
This is nice to hear. Were you there in 1987 at the Michigan Camp when Rocky and Remy gave an excellant display of sitck work, that was more Balintawak deriviative than Main Stream Modern Arnis? So, I know THE MAN (* Remy Presas *) Had it. And yes I say then and before in 1986, and videos from early 80's of semi sparring that was or is Tapi-Tapi with leg strikes. In 1987, I worked with Dr. Randi Schea at a camp as Remy was teaching the basics of this drill then.

Well Rich, with the state of flux that the Professor kept the system in as he developed it, "tapi-tapi" was always there in concept. He called it a number of things before settling on the term "tapi-tapi". I never said that the Professor hadn't taught it prior to 1992. He codified it and started really pushing it then, particularly after so many people started exploring Balintawak.

I agree with you that GM Taboada's arrival on the scene probably influenced the Professor to develop and release tapi-tapi a little quicker than he might/might not have have. It was a more matter of marketing than anything else.


Originally posted by Rich Parsons
Why as Rich C pointed out that no one can agree what is Modern Arnis. Yet, when asked, people will say yes this in Balintawak or this is Villasin Balintawak, or Moncal Balintawak, or Maranga Tres Special, or Taboada Balintawak. I can tell you why they have the name difference and can make the distinction. These people changed it, added to it, took away from, and then called it their own.

You mean Maranga's Tres Personas, right? BTW, you forgot Dr. Go, Delfin Lopez, Henry Jamie and the Atillos to name a few.

Anyway, the people you mentioned took an "informal" system and formalized it. Bacon had a fierce reputation as a fighter, but as an instructor he didn't have a solid curriculm for his predcessors to follow. They made it fit their own needs in terms of instructional framework. That made it easier to learn as well as easier to teach. They kept the core of what makes the system what it is and codified it the better facilitate it's instruction when the founder could no longer teach. Does that make it their interpretation of the art less viable? No. It does not.

Step out of the box and see for yourself, Rich. Make the comparison once you've seen more of what's out there. You'll see what I mean.

Tim Kashino

[DoxN4cer]

Originally posted by PAUL
That being said...the instructors who were on the bill at first were strictly Modern Arnis from different era's. When they backed out, we needed fillers, and many of the fillers didn't teach strictly Remy Presas Arnis, turning the event into something different then what it was created for.

Does anybody teach "strictly Remy Presas Modern Arnis"?


Tim Kashino

[DoxN4cer]

OK RIch, maybe it's time for athread split.

[Emptyglass]

Hi all:

I split the thread to here:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11130

Thanks,

Rich Curren

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons
Were you there in 1987 at the Michigan Camp when Rocky and Remy gave an excellant display of sitck work, that was more Balintawak deriviative than Main Stream Modern Arnis?

I was there, and it was the first time I had heard of Balintawak. Rocky was kind enough to show me a little on the side--just a taste.

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by DoxN4cer

However, interms of "whose" Balintawak really influenced Modern Arnis... It's all Bacon's Balintawak, whather or not it is now studied in the grouped or ungrouped methods of learning. The principles of the are remain the same regardless of how it is packaged.


Tim, I apologize if I have offended you on this. If the instructors were correct and took what they learned and passed it on, then there would be no difference.

So, I guess you are right.


Originally posted by DoxN4cer
To discount the validity of "Taboada Balintawak" being taught at a Modern Arnis event is not only narrow minded, but also discounts the validity of all Balintawak being taught by anyone within the context of any Modern Arnis framework.


I never discounted the Validity of Bobby Taboada or Toboada's Balintawak. I never discounted it being taught by anyone the system says can teach the art. I never discounted the art being taught side by side with Modern Arnis. My Point was and is, this was supposed to be a Modern Arnis Symposium, billed with the leaders of Modern Arnis, minus those who made a public post that they were not going to be present. To call it a Filipino Martial Arts Symosium would be correct. I would think that it might be considered an insult to call Grand Master's Taboada's Balintawak and Punong Guro Bolden's Pancipanci Eskrima, Modern Arnis.

Like many have said it is not the art, it is the person that makes the difference. I have no disrespect for those who taught, or their lineage or their systems. I just did not wish for it to seem like those in the Modern Arnis Community were trying to use their arts/systems to the Modern Arnis Advantage.

If this has upset you or anyone else, then I apologize. Yet, I was splitting hairs with Jerome Barber, who posted this was to be the greatest and first one and only Modern Arnis Symposium.



Originally posted by DoxN4cer
It all came from the same source.


Tim Kashino

Rich Parsons, please e-mail me. I have a message for you.

It all came from the same source through different branches. Are all the branches in a tree the same? Is Doces Pares the same as Balintawak or San Miguel Eskrima? All of these were taught by those that were students of the Saavedras and the Fencing Club prior to World War II.

Once again no disrespect to anyone from any of these systems, I do believe that you can learn from any of these fine lineages.

:asian:

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by DoxN4cer
Your comparing the packaging and the window dressing, Rich. Deep down at the core the same fundamental concepts are the same. It is undeniable. Go train with GM Taboada or any other Balintawak guy and see for yourself. The package may look a little different, but the candy inside is the same.


Tim K, is the Gran Prix and the Lumina and the Imapla and the Century and Regal all the same car? Nope, they all have different packageing and marketing, and requirements by the end item customer. Yet, they all are built on the same frame/platform use similar powertrains, (* Yet they are fine tunded to the requirement of the name plate *). So, if a person is looking for a sporty car they get the Gran Prix, is they want comfort they go for the Century.

Yes, I would like to train with GM Bobby Toboada (* And NO THIS IS NOT A CHALLENGE SO DO NOT ASSUME SO! *), or one of his instructors. I assume everyone has something to offer and teach me. Yet, from what I have seen on the tapes, I would have to say that I have seen enough differences, to let me make my first comment, which was qualified, just like this one. I have not trained with Gm Bobby Toboada. From what I have seen in his tapes and from his people I have the chance to watch.

I am not discounting the training, I am only stating like I did in the previous post that I think is incorrect of the Modern Arnis Communnity to claim that this was a Modern Arnis event only. There were other arts there. These arts were represented by people that have years of training and teaching. I enjoyed the training with Sifu Peter Vargas. He was nice and friendly. This was never an attack on him or Grand Master Bobby Toboada. I was only trying to state that I think this event had more than Modern Arnis.




Originally posted by DoxN4cer
Well Rich, with the state of flux that the Professor kept the system in as he developed it, "tapi-tapi" was always there in concept. He called it a number of things before settling on the term "tapi-tapi". I never said that the Professor hadn't taught it prior to 1992. He codified it and started really pushing it then, particularly after so many people started exploring Balintawak.

I agree with you that GM Taboada's arrival on the scene probably influenced the Professor to develop and release tapi-tapi a little quicker than he might/might not have have. It was a more matter of marketing than anything else.


Tim K,

I though Tapi-Tapi and hte term and the right on right was around in 1988 maybe 1989, still three years before 1992.

Now, Like I Said before, could GM Bobby Taboada have influenced his decision to push it harder at the camps? This could be true, for I was not in his mind. Yet, again I state that it had been taught at the Michigan camp and before that at seminars in my home town. So, yes influence could have and probably did occur. Just like, I might influenece you or you might enfluence me, yet I think the final decision was GM Remy Presas' and the term and basic drill was around prior to GM Bobby Toboada's major puch here in North America.

So, does this discount GM Bobby Toboada? NO! Does this discount the Toboada Balintawak System? NO! Could the drills be similar since the linage for both them went back to Anciong Bacon, with each of them having other influences as well?

I am confused Tim K. It could be because it is late and I need sleep. On one hand you tell me they are the same meaning the different family trees of Balintawak and yet you claim that GM Bobby Taboada had a major influence on the Tapi-Tapi Drill. Would not Modern Arnis also be a rose by another name from the Balintawak Family then by your arguing?

Can you clarify? Sorry.





Originally posted by DoxN4cer
You mean Maranga's Tres Personas, right? BTW, you forgot Dr. Go, Delfin Lopez, Henry Jamie and the Atillos to name a few.


Yes Tim you are 100% Correct, I mis-quoted the name in an attempt to reply to you before I left for teaching at a camp. I should not have posted unless I had all my information correct, as I could either remember or verify. As to the rest of the list I would not add in the Atillos. The last I heard, there lineage did not come through Anciong Bacon, it came strait from the Savaadres. As I was not there, and most of the people I know of that might know are either dead or I cannot find them, I will take their comments with a grain of salt. The name Balintawak was not even around as the name of what people were doing in Cebu City until after World War II, and with the death of the Savaadres in the war, it would be hard to have learned Balintawak. Yet is it possible that their family had learned the same techniques as GM Anciong Bacon? Most assuredly.

BTW Tim, did you know that Delfin Lopez was an extended Uncle to Manong Ted Buot? Just to add some information to your knowledge bank. NO disrespect meant to you or anyone, only trying to share another piece of information.


Originally posted by DoxN4cer
Anyway, the people you mentioned took an "informal" system and formalized it. Bacon had a fierce reputation as a fighter, but as an instructor he didn't have a solid curriculm for his predcessors to follow. They made it fit their own needs in terms of instructional framework. That made it easier to learn as well as easier to teach. They kept the core of what makes the system what it is and codified it the better facilitate it's instruction when the founder could no longer teach. Does that make it their interpretation of the art less viable? No. It does not.


By Taking an informal system and formalizing, how can it be the same? As to the No Solid Curriculm, Manong (GM) Ted Buot does just fine with it. Yes, you have to learn it the old way, one on one and you must feel as well as see the technique and timing.

As to keeping the core, this implies the left something behind. How can it be the same?

As to their art being less Viable. Once again, I have never said these other systems/arts were to be discounted or not taken deriously, or for people to not train in them. All, I am trying to state is that they are different, hence the different names. They are different because as you pointed out they modfied and changed things, yet kept the core. Core implies a central part, not the whole piece. Could their changes be for the better? Obviously, yes, or people would not think so and would not think studying in theses and other arts worthwhile, so once again, I am not looking to create a war between myself and anyone or this art and that art. Which goes back to my first comments, Taboada Balintawak and Pancipanci Eskrima are not Modern Arnis in its' whole by any means. These arts should have been given equal billing, by calling the event Filipnio Martial Arts Symposium, versus the one and only first Modern Arnis Symposium. These other people should be given their credit as well.


Originally posted by DoxN4cer
Step out of the box and see for yourself, Rich. Make the comparison once you've seen more of what's out there. You'll see what I mean.

Tim Kashino

I would love to make the comparison. And I plan on making the comparison, when an event lines up with location and timing for me at work. I have played with some guys who have trained in Go Lineage, no this was not serious play nor was it long. I saw the similarities, and the differences. Could this be the errors of these two students, (* Myself and the other *)? Yes it could. I have an open mind.

[Rich Parsons]

Tim K,

Two Items.

First, I will Call Panung Guro Tom Bolden This afternoon after 5:00 PM. Monday the 20th of October. I apologize as I was out of town and away from a computer.

Second, Why does, everyone of my posts get turned into an attack on Bobby Taboada by you? I posted my feelings above, that I did not wish for the other systems to not be given their due. Do you have issues with me? Are you trying to discredit me? This is fine. For is I open my mouth, and say something, either I have to accpet the ramifications or apologize. If those ramifications are someone getting upset and thinking I am challenging them, then I will live by it. Just so long as those are my words, and not yours. If you wish to see a fight between me and someone, then please let me know who it is, and why? If you do not then why is everyone of your posts lined with a leading comment or two that implies I have some how insulted someone or an art?

Believe me if I mean to insult someone on purpose I will.

So, Tim, are we going to be honest with each other here? or are you going to continue your game? You can have people call me. I will either learn new information, or explain what I meant. You can try to get people to not like me and thereby have any one I dislike gain credit with my loss of face. You see Tim, even though you are in the Navy, and work the piers (* Here I am assuming SP, and for that I apologize. *), Jerome introduced you as his enforcer. Previously, I had not assumed anything, until after reading your last few posts here and elsewhere. Now I am wondering, not assuming, so I am asking, why the hostility and the blatent attempts to draw me into in conflict with a thrid party. Some people would call this trollish behavior and ask for you to leave. Me personally, I want to know what is up?

I apologize, if I have insulted you, for you see I have not tried too. I do not understand why everything I post turns into a conflict, and I am trying to defend myself, from your insinuations that I am insulting over half the know FMA community. So, Once again, yes I have problems with two people, not their students, not their organizations, not their arts, just two individuals. The problem stems from the way I was personally treated by them, not by their technique or knowledge and/or thing else. Tim K., why? What did I do? (* Other than post about Jerome? *)

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by DoxN4cer
OK RIch, maybe it's time for athread split.

I will work on this Monday Evening
:asian:

[DoxN4cer]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons


I though Tapi-Tapi and hte term and the right on right was around in 1988 maybe 1989, still three years before 1992.



There were a number of terms that the Professor seemed to be using... first in the earlier days (according to many seniors) he just called it de kadena, then later the term tapik-tapik surfaced, then there was de cedario as well. He may have been searching for a term that met his satisfaction.

Tim

[DoxN4cer]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons


I am confused Tim K. It could be because it is late and I need sleep. On one hand you tell me they are the same meaning the different family trees of Balintawak and yet you claim that GM Bobby Taboada had a major influence on the Tapi-Tapi Drill. Would not Modern Arnis also be a rose by another name from the Balintawak Family then by your arguing?

Can you clarify? Sorry.




Yes Rich, you need some sleep. I'm not arguing. The issue is not that GM Taboada's Balnitawak influenced the tapi-tapi drill. I never stated that. Perhaps you should re-read the previous posts? I simply stated that the Professor's big push for "the Art of Tapi-Tapi" being the grand ultimate phase of Modern Arnis seemed to happen when as Balintawak became more accessable to the public with the arrival of GM Taboada.

I always believed that the higher concepts in Modern Arnis were pretty much Balnitawak material. The influence from GM Taboada was not on the technique or drill. It was on how much Balintawak the Professor was going to let out of the bag and into the market.


Tim Kashino

[DoxN4cer]

Danm, Rich! You're a cranky SOB when you're tired. I'm not twisting your post into something that they aren't. I'm being very genuine in posing questions here and engage in objective and constructive conversations, whether they a technical of conceptual. If I sound argumentative, it is due to the shortcomings of communicating in text. You can't "hear" tone and inflection with your eyes. If I am short in my posts it is usually due to the fact that I'm short on time, and I simply don't have the time to ramble on elaborating on the issue.

Get a thicker skin, Rich. I'm not trying to offend anyone here, but it appears that my past affiliations are still an issue in your mind and perhaps in the minds of others here as well. If that's the case then maybe there's no point in continuing the conversation. Is there?

Tim Kashino

[Dan Anderson]

Guys! Guys!

Don't make me come over there and force beer down your throats! I'll do it!

Yours,
Dan

[Tgace]

"Moreover, a mind that is negligent and forgetful of death will beget a lack of prudence. Arguments will be started over insensitive speech, and controversies will flare up concerning matters that could have been finished simply by ignoring them.
While walking around without reserve in the midst of crowds on useless temple sight-seeing trips, bumping into strange fools and getting into unexpected fights, one will lose his life, drag out the honored name of his lord, and bring trouble on his family. All these disasters occur from the negligence of not keeping death constantly in mind. When one does have death constantly in mind, being of warrior rank, he will understand the importance of discrimination in words, both in addressing others and in answering what others have addressed to him. He will have no reasonless arguments because of this, and, of course, will not go to 'unnecessary places even when invited. Thus, he will not get involved with any unexpected issues. For this reason it is said that one can avoid myriad evils and disasters." -The BushidoShoShinShu

I was going to post a long rant about how unwarrior like EVERYBODYS words and deeds have been lately, this quote is much more elegant....

:asian:

[Rich Parsons]

Copied thread for this discussions, and I kept the thread complete to see the progression.

Other thread on DVD has been pruned
:asian:

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by DoxN4cer
Danm, Rich! You're a cranky SOB when you're tired. I'm not twisting your post into something that they aren't. I'm being very genuine in posing questions here and engage in objective and constructive conversations, whether they a technical of conceptual. If I sound argumentative, it is due to the shortcomings of communicating in text. You can't "hear" tone and inflection with your eyes. If I am short in my posts it is usually due to the fact that I'm short on time, and I simply don't have the time to ramble on elaborating on the issue.

Get a thicker skin, Rich. I'm not trying to offend anyone here, but it appears that my past affiliations are still an issue in your mind and perhaps in the minds of others here as well. If that's the case then maybe there's no point in continuing the conversation. Is there?

Tim Kashino


Ok Tim, Let us call a detante and discuss.

You no longer assume I and others are assuming you are Jerome's Boy.

I will no longer assume that you are trying to change my words to have others upset with me.
:asian:


As to the tone of the words and not hearng or seeing, I have said the same thing. So let us discuss.

[Rich Parsons]

Hey Guys, I just got off the phone with Tom Bolden. (* Ok it was about an hour ago, I was working on the threads and getting caught up before posting. *) We talked about an hour and a half and it was enjoyable.

I forgot to ask him something and will call him back in the near future, yet I found it very interesting that his views and comments aligned with those I had posted previously. More detail later after I follow up, and clear details with Panung Guro Tom Bolden Pancipanci Escrima
:asian:

[DoxN4cer]

Originally posted by Dan Anderson
Guys! Guys!

Don't make me come over there and force beer down your throats! I'll do it!

Yours,
Dan

I don't think you can!!!! Come on bring it on. hehehe

Tim

[DoxN4cer]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons
Ok Tim, Let us call a detante and discuss.

You no longer assume I and others are assuming you are Jerome's Boy.

I will no longer assume that you are trying to change my words to have others upset with me.
:asian:


As to the tone of the words and not hearng or seeing, I have said the same thing. So let us discuss.


That's good to hear.

Promise?

Just remember Rich; the human mind, like a parachute, works best whan it is open. I'm looking forward to continuing exchanges with you, both here and in private.

Tim Kashino

[Dan Anderson]

Ahhhh, boys. It looks like I won't have to come out there and force beer down your respective throats after all. Saves me money.

One thing for sure, the DVD thread is going to remain polarized due to the effects the Symposium had on others and the relatively negative reviews posted and the banterings of the behind the scenes business. And the sales will suffer because of it or hopefully (for George Denson's sake) they'll increase because of curiousity of what all the fuss is about.

Rich,
It's been threee months. Check out your videos in a new unit of time. They're pretty good. You'll even see you a lot.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

[Cruentus]

Tim K: I'm not sure why you keep implying that Rich is close minded. I don't think that he has been close minded....well....ever, at least not since I have met him.

Dan: I will say that I don't intend to give a biased opinion on the DVD's myself. When I do view them, I plan on forgetting any bad taste that the event may have left regarding the sideline issues, and just looking at them for what they are. I will post my unbiased opinion of them when I have the chance to view them.

Also, I do hope that sales don't suffer for Goerges sake; I thought he was a pretty good guy.