Input appreciated (warning long post)

[Jester]

Hi all, I had a bit of a brain wave while driving home from my kick boxing class last night. I wanted to see what you all think.

Ok I’ve been considering cross training for some time now to broaden my knowledge of the martial arts. Now that’s all so well and good and I still plan to do this however the thought occurred to me that I’m never going to get everything I want, I’m still going to be restricted to the limitations of two clubs.

So I started thinking, and the only place I get to try a bit of everything is in my own private little sessions. A few lads and me get together twice a week and train in the martial arts, we do all sorts, pretty much whatever we fancy on the day, but as the only experienced martial artist there we’re limited to my knowledge. But the point is style or club does not restrict us, we do what we like.

So that got me thinking. I can’t be the only martial artist desperate to cross train so why don’t I try and run these sessions on a larger basis. I could put together a syndicate of martial artists, now this would not be for beginners, it would be for those with enough knowledge and confidence to cross train into other areas.

Now once I had a syndicate what would happen is we would get together once every two weeks or even once a week and every session we would have someone different running it and therefore bringing their martial art into the group. E.g perhaps I could run a session and we could do kick boxing pad work, or maybe another session, kick boxing sparring. Maybe a jujitsu guy could come in and do a session on throws and holds, a kendo guy could come in and do a bit of sword training. You get the idea, we’d all be benefiting from each others knowledge as well as enjoying working together at a high level.

Once I had a group of people I could plan out what sessions were happening when and everyone in the syndicate could choose which sessions to turn up for. E.g I fancy doing low kicks, knees and elbows but I don’t really fancy kata training.

It would all be run from a central website. So people could keep up with what was happening, when and where we were getting together all bringing the knowledge from our own clubs to each others training. It wouldn’t be a business I’m not talking about running it as a club or anything like that, we might all put a little bit of money into a pot to cover the cost of a training venue, maybe a kitty for equipment and perhaps a small few for whoever was running the session that week.

We could get feed back on each of the sessions maybe even rating each other sessions so that the more popular ones came up more often.

I only came up with this idea last night guys so I’m just bouncing ideas around. I would appreciate hearing what you think and getting some feedback. Has anyone done something like this? Would anyone be interested if it came up? Any ideas that would make it work?

Thanks in advance guys.

Andy

[MantisMan]

Jester,

This is a great idea! I may have a venue for you to try this out at - it's a new venue opening up in Warrington that would be perfect and quite central to most North West UK martial artists.

Calling all North West UK martial artists! Post your responses to this, please. If you think you could add your skills to the mix, and you want to get trained in styles you may not have come across then now is the time to get involved.

MantisMan at your service for Kung Fu, Karate, Judo and KickBoxing tuition.

Q. Do you envisage one person running a whole session, or perhaps several people doing short slots? Having more than one 'guide' might give more reliable coverage in case someone can't make it on the day.

[Jester]

I love it when a plan comes together.

Venue sounds ace.

As far as having more than one person running things. This would probably be a good idea but would no doubt depend on numbers and how many we had from a specific art. Time will tell on that one.

[oldnewbie]

I would love to take part in this, except the drive from Floida would be a problem,:mad:

Too bad more people don't think like this, we would "all" get along better (share and share alike)

[Andi]

You're NW too are you Jester? Shame I'm not in Manchester any more these days, it sounds a good idea. Hey if you do set anything up could you post it? I'm interested.

[Shodan]

Sounds like a great idea to me too- and fun!! I would love to participate in something like this......unfortunately, it is a long ways away from California and I don't own a jet!!

Best of luck to you in pulling this together though- should be a blast!!

:asian: :karate:

[Elfan]

I am actaully considering something similar myself. The university I attend doesn't have any martial arts clubs that I am interested in, nor are their any local schools. I was considering starting a club of my own, but I do not yet feel ready to teach on my own yet. What I was thinking of doing (after talking my situation over with some friends) was to start a club where people from differnt backround take turn teaching or leading the class. This would remove some of the burden from me and, more importatntly, let me hit people.

[Jester]

Thanks a lot guys it's good to get some positive feedback.

I think this is something that will probably happen. Have to get designing a site. I'll keep you updated how it goes.

Look for future posts headed 'Martial Arts Syndicate'

[MantisMan]

Ut-oh! Looks like Jester's going to be The Godfather, what with all his talk about "The Syndicate". If he turns up to a session with a violin case, I'm out of there! :D

[Jester]

Very good Mantisman, as always your wit amazes me.

I hope you aren't planning to run a session called 'how to be funny'

:-)

[MantisMan]

You'll be rolling around the floor laying eggs when I demonstrate "chicken style kung fu".

[Cthulhu]

I would try to make sure anyone who would be instructing at these sessions be of instructor ranking in their respective systems. It's a good idea, but if everyone is training something incorrectly, it defeats the purpose.

:)

Cthulhu

[MantisMan]

Cthulu,

I understand what you're saying, but I have a few points that I wish to raise about it:

1. I don't believe that if you are 'uncertified' (and in the MA world - what the hell does that mean anyway? esp. Kung Fu!!) that you have nothing to teach
2. Teaching in a certified manner insists (by definition) that a move be performed in the "correct" manner. I am happy to allow people to "show" a technique, which others may feel free to discuss, argue about, dismiss, adopt, adapt, improve upon....all those things.

Perhaps the real value from these sessions is not the number of techniques you acquire from other arts, but the ability you gain to interpret, adopt and improve upon martial arts concepts.

Saying that, I feel sure we will be vetting the tuition to the extent that we are convinced that someone has the ability to at least demonstrate a technique effectively so that others can learn from it.

The teachers may learn as much about teaching as the students learn about learning.

[Jester]

Couldn't agree more Mantisman, the purpose of these sesssions is not for peopel to get together and say this is how to do this and my way is right. Otherwise we'd just all end up arguing.

People will come and show what they do, and if we agree we will adopt methods from that training into our own.

This is why this wouldn't be for beginners. Martial artists need to have the confidence and experience to evaluate techniques and ideas themselves.

[Cthulhu]

The reason I suggested it is because there is a good chance you could show each other the incorrect way to do these various techniques. I'm not saying it will always be the case, but it is a distinct possibility.

Whatever...it isn't my training.

Cthulhu

[MantisMan]

No, no. Don't get me wrong, Cthulhu. I think there is a VERY HIGH likelihood that we will be opening ourselves up to "bad technique".

But the idea is not to prevent this from happening, rather to respond appropriately when it does. It's just a more engaging experience that way, where the experience of the many produces a better response than the dictat of the one.

[kkbb]

I think your intentions are good...but.... a few things. The real big one is money...
Most peoples intentions are good until they have to cough up.... then all of the sudden they are "busy" or some other lame excuse..
How do you know what you are going to study will not do more harm than good... what about recourse...

Aren't you all in danger of becoming the "master of nothing"

The search for a well rounded cirriculum in and established setting would probabley more fruitful for you.

I think you wil also find that you will have a great many contradictions in the different systems. SOME of those attending will not enjoy it, or choose not to come back.

Just some negative thought for you to think about... before you put to much into your endevor

:asian:

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by MantisMan

1. I don't believe that if you are 'uncertified' (and in the MA world - what the hell does that mean anyway? esp. Kung Fu!!) that you have nothing to teach


My only thoughts, and maybe un-needed or un-wanted, are that there is a reason why most legitimate teachers(you mentioned kung fu so I'll use that example) do not just throw their students out to start teaching. It takes years, and years, and years, before a Sifu might acknowledge a student to teach. This is because it takes so long to truly understand the principles behind a move, or the application to a certain technique.
I'm always amazed at the amount of narcissistic tendencies people (including myself) show after simply learning the moves of a basic technique. We see the movements and think we can teach it. I just think there is much more understanding to be gained before actual teaching can occur.
I'm not trying to say your idea is wrong or a bad one, but I'm just saying that it might be wise to have someone well versed in MA or a particular system there to help interpret the good from the bad (harmful) techniques.

JMHO
7sm

[Cthulhu]

Originally posted by MantisMan
No, no. Don't get me wrong, Cthulhu. I think there is a VERY HIGH likelihood that we will be opening ourselves up to "bad technique".

But the idea is not to prevent this from happening, rather to respond appropriately when it does. It's just a more engaging experience that way, where the experience of the many produces a better response than the dictat of the one.

So you're conciously going to teach each other incorrect technique, and possibly pass those on to still more.

Good luck with that.

Cthulhu

[tshadowchaser]

Teaching a technique wrong after 3 or 4 generations of teachers make it correct in the teacher and student minds but it is still incorrect to those that have more knowledge.
My students are given a student to train after they have been with me for a year or so. I watch them teach and correct what they do wrong . I may let a technique be instructed wrong once but i will take my student teacher aside and explain what i saw wrong so that he/she may correct it asap.
Teaching seems easy but one must know the techniques fully not just have an idea of how and why to use them then one must be able to explain the tchnique to individuals of varrying degrees of intellegence and athletic ability

[Jester]

It's not a class......... its a group. A bunch of martial artists getting together to share knowledge.

We will all have our own art, this is where we will all be 'masters' as it were.

The sessions will not be open to begineers as they wouldn't be able to recognise bad techniques, where as experienced martial artists will have a better chance. Alos we will be training in such a way as to test the effectivness of these techniques not only against real life combatents but against different styles and techniqes (have you considered that?)

I think there are pitfalls that will have to be watched for. But I think I have enough round knowledge of the martial arts that I'll be able to reconise people who don't know what they're talking about.

Ta

p.s Cthulhu, this is my idea and I'm quite excited about it. I apprecitae positive and negetive input but can you leave your sarcasm at the door, just cause you don't agree doesn't make it wrong.

[7starmantis]

Its a bit strange to me, when MAist begin calling themselves "masters" of anything. I've been training in CMA for many, many years of my life and I would not come close to calling myself a master at any of it. I'm not saying your skill level is not high, its just that if you do "adopt" a technique that is done wrong, you could not only not learn a correct technique but hurt yourself or someone else while trying to perform it.
I don't think its a bad idea for MAist to get together and train, I just think its harder than most people think to truly recognize what is a wrong technique and what is not, especially in other systems.

JMHO,
7sm

[Matt]

I think you are on to a great idea. There are a few obstacles, but I don't feel that they are insurmountable.

1.) make sure that you have a core group organized that will show up regularly. It can get quite disheartening for new folks and 'session facilitators' to show to an empty room.

2.) Strongly suggest that folks have experience - they need some basic understanding of technique to evaluate it.

3.) Ignore the naysayers like Cthulu who apparently think that you and all who will participate are stupid and can't evaluate technique for yourselves. The thought that people can evaluate technique scares the daylights out of people who make money teaching.

4.) Do not expect to make any money doing this. If you are lucky, you can charge a nominal mat fee and cover the location expenses.

5.)Also ignore the zealots who think that there is only one right way. There's lots of 'right ways' to punch and kick. That's the point of the whole idea.

Best of luck. Wish I could get something like that going in my area. It's been a plan on paper for a while, but I haven't had the time to do it properly.

Matt

[Cthulhu]

Originally posted by Matt
I think you are on to a great idea. There are a few obstacles, but I don't feel that they are insurmountable.

3.) Ignore the naysayers like Cthulu who apparently think that you and all who will participate are stupid and can't evaluate technique for yourselves. The thought that people can evaluate technique scares the daylights out of people who make money teaching.


Interesting, I don't recall ever thinking any of them were stupid, nor do I recall saying such. Apparently, your ability to read minds is somewhat flawed.

I actually had the same idea while I was in school, but I was going to limit it to black belt/instructor level students.

I merely expressed concern for them possibly teaching each other incorrectly, something I was guilty of when I first started training.

Maybe you should take a moment to ask someone what they are thinking before attributing things to them that they never actually said, Matt.

Cthulhu

[Matt]

Originally posted by Cthulhu
Interesting, I don't recall ever thinking any of them were stupid, nor do I recall saying such. Apparently, your ability to read minds is somewhat flawed.


It's that Blaine guy's fault. Ever since he got back out of the box, the interference has been terrible.


Originally posted by Cthulhu
I merely expressed concern for them possibly teaching each other incorrectly, something I was guilty of when I first started training.

Maybe you should take a moment to ask someone what they are thinking before attributing things to them that they never actually said, Matt.

Cthulhu

I didn't ask, because your meaning seemed abundantly clear when you said:


Originally posted by Cthulhu

So you're conciously going to teach each other incorrect technique, and possibly pass those on to still more.

Good luck with that.

Cthulhu

That didn't seem like a question to me. I guess whatever is ruining my psychic skills is also affecting your ability to determine Jester's intent. Somehow I got the impression that you thought that his workout group of experienced people would blindly (and stupidly)accept an incorrect technique without evaluating it, or would be unable to determine that it was incorrect if they tried to evaluate it, and that Jester would (in a blaze of additional stupidity) 'con[s]ciously teach each other incorrect technique'.

That's the impression I got. Perhaps you might elaborate on how:


Originally posted by Cthulhu

So you're conciously going to teach each other incorrect technique, and possibly pass those on to still more.

Good luck with that.

Cthulhu

Means something else, to mitigate my misunderstanding.

Thank you,

Matt

[Cthulhu]

My response simply means I do not agree with what he is doing. Yes, it was done in a sarcastic manner, but at no point is it implied that I think they are 'stupid', as you seem to believe I do.

At any rate, I don't need to explain myself to the likes of you.

Jester, if my sarcasm was overly harsh, then I apologize.

Cthulhu

[Matt]

Originally posted by Cthulhu
My response simply means I do not agree with what he is doing. Yes, it was done in a sarcastic manner, but at no point is it implied that I think they are 'stupid', as you seem to believe I do.


That is the inference I drew. I stand by my inference; the words led me there. I'm glad you don't mean what I inferred, but perhaps stated more clearly (and less sarcastically), it would have conveyed more helpful criticism.

I won't go into a tirade about the widespread disparagement of critical thinking by 'non-credentialed' martial artists. I don't want to further detract from this thread.


Originally posted by Cthulhu

At any rate, I don't need to explain myself to the likes of you.


What exactly is the 'likes of me'? It's that mind reading again. I guess this misunderstanding underscores the need to explain to the likes of me.

I expect that those in authority choosetheir words and avoid ad hominem attacks.


Originally posted by Cthulhu


Jester, if my sarcasm was overly harsh, then I apologize.

Cthulhu

I'm glad you are taking the high road. Now let's help him out and give him some ideas to insure that the club will avoid the pitfalls mentioned.

I suggest that every technique should be 'trouble shot' to determine its strengths and weaknesses. Input from other arts/artists would be especially useful, as they may not make the same assumptions that a familiar practicioner might. It's the 'feeding the right attack' problem.

Anyone else?

Matt

[Jester]

Ok guys come on I don't want this to turn into a fight. I honestly welcome all your opinions.

Thanks for you post Matt I agreed with your points. I hope there will be a core group, starting with the three of us and no I don't expect to make any money from it. I just want enough to keep it going, pay for a hall etc.

We are going ahead with this, the website is done (kind of) but not live yet. I'll let you all know when it's availible, it seems a lot of people have had a similar idea which means I should hopefully get some interest. And I think I understand what the pitfalls are and I hope to avoid them as best I can.

I think only time will tell if this will work or not.

[RanaHarmamelda]

Truth be told, I've often wished for somethign like this in my area.
ALthough I've always imagined it more as a group where people of different styles could come together and spar, friendly-like, together. Increase innovation and knowledge, and experience thinkoing outsidre of your system's box -- but such a thing is very hard to organize.

I have to problem with fellow MAists teaching each other little things they know -- but it is best if all parties take everything with a bit of salt -- the teaching person (no matter who they are) realizes they may not be teaching the technique exaclty 'right' and the learning person realizes the same. Still -- it could be fun, and informative. :)

[fringe_dweller]

Jester,

Out of curiosity (no starting a flame war here) what is your experience in the MA world, and what will be your criteria for entry to a class?

Something which you may want to consider seriously is what will happen if anyone is injured while participating in this syndicate of yours. I'm not sure what the rules are in the UK but I know in Australia that you need to have some kind of public liability insurance. That won't come cheap. This isn't said to knock your idea on the head, but rather make you consider the wider picture and the repercussions if something does happen to go wrong.

Respectfully,

[J-kid]

Cthulhu
I dont know if belts is a great way to determin who can teach on average or what skill level people truely have. After seeing so many 6 month black belts which shouldnt be more then yellow. When someone in another art who has been training for 5 years may only have a green or blue belt but may have alot of skill equel to a 3rd degree black belt. Like in BJJ its real real hard to get a black belt.

[Jester]

In follow up to this thread I'm just putting a like to our new site, it's still in the development phase but it is up and running

www.martialartssyndicate.co.uk

Let me know what you think