Mr. Parker used to teach around 40 or so weekends a year. Instructors would set up Seminars or Workshops and he would teach the group and usually help the host privately as well.

If you were "helped" during the " Seminar" does this mean you were considered "student" of Ed Parkers or is there a more formal definition such as being an official association member or actually the agreement between Mr. Parker and the Instructor which seems more official to me than most who seem to be self proclaimed students due to attendance? Or are there other factors that should be considered?

Your thoughts......

:asian:

For me, being a personal student means developing a bond with your instructor/student that goes beyond the basics and regular teaching. It's having a personal relationship.
I know of some teachers that don't like this because they need to get involved with the student out of class. And they ain't necessarily McDojo's teachers.

Originally posted by Kenpomachine
For me, being a personal student means developing a bond with your instructor/student that goes beyond the basics and regular teaching. It's having a personal relationship.
I know of some teachers that don't like this because they need to get involved with the student out of class. And they ain't necessarily McDojo's teachers.

I agree! Very well put. If the student shows that extra 10% that he/she is already putting into the 100, the Inst. will most likely notice this.

Mike

... I have attended seminars with lots of the top Kenpoist in the world including many with Mr. Parker. Do I claim I am their student? Certainly not, that is an outrageous claim. I trained with Mr. (insert name here), but unless he says I am his student, I better not be claiming to be.

Let's flip the coin. Mr. Parker "taught" a lot of people. Even when you considered yourself his student, were you getting the material from him? Or did he send you to one of his other Black Belts for material, then work with you once or twice a year? Would you still be his student.

In your eyes ....
In his eyes ...
In the eyes of the instructor teaching you the material ....
How about in the eyes of your students ....
Or in the eyes of your peers ....
Or other Parker Black Belts?

Answer the above questions honestly, if not to us, then at least to yourself. You will know whether you were his student, or not. (I personally think he would have told you, but hey, I could be wrong.)

And you wonder why Kenpo is a mess right now? Or maybe not! And if it is, does it affect YOU?

-Michael

For me, personal student means learning the material directly from the teacher and lots of one on one time.
you can usually tell a personal student by some tangible and / or intangible recognition given by the instructor.

Originally posted by Michael Billings
... I have attended seminars with lots of the top Kenpoist in the world including many with Mr. Parker. Do I claim I am their student? Certainly not, that is an outrageous claim. I trained with Mr. (insert name here), but unless he says I am his student, I better not be claiming to be.

Let's flip the coin. Mr. Parker "taught" a lot of people. Even when you considered yourself his student, were you getting the material from him? Or did he send you to one of his other Black Belts for material, then work with you once or twice a year? Would you still be his student.

In your eyes ....
In his eyes ...
In the eyes of the instructor teaching you the material ....
How about in the eyes of your students ....
Or in the eyes of your peers ....
Or other Parker Black Belts?

Answer the above questions honestly, if not to us, then at least to yourself. You will know whether you were his student, or not. (I personally think he would have told you, but hey, I could be wrong.)

And you wonder why Kenpo is a mess right now? Or maybe not! And if it is, does it affect YOU?


Mr. Billings, in my opinion, you hit the nail square on the head. Even if you train for a couple months straight or even a year it would in my opinion be nothing other than training with him. For you to be a student requires longivity and formal acceptance as a student. Mr. Parker was the Senior Teaching Blackbelt. When you came in under the IKKA banner you were accepted as a member, many times being trained by one of Mr. Parkers 1st gen or 2nd gen. black belts as you stated. Many fewer than stated are true first generation under Mr. Parker. Fewer still (only a small handfull)can claim him as their only instructor.










-Michael

I have seen many people in my short time in the Kenpo community make claims to be students of Ed Parker Sr. In my opinion it is all on how you interpert those claims. I'll analogize for you...

For those that practice Christianity we say we are students of Jesus Christ. But are we? Did he actually teach us what is in the Bible? NO! Our pastor or preist or even your parents taught you.
However do you follow the teachings of Jesus Christ? YES!

Kenpo is sort of the same thing. Many follow the teachings of Ed Parker Sr. but were not directly taught by him. So to say they are "followers" of Ed Parker would be more accurate IMOP.

To be a student one must be accepted and it must be verbalized by the instructor accepting the student. In my case, I approached my current instructor and asked him if he would take me on as a student. He agreed on one condition ~ I clear it through my former (then current) instructor. Needless to say my former instructor gave me his blessings and I was all set.
:asian:

Originally posted by Michael Billings
but unless he says I am his student, I better not be claiming to be...(I personally think he would have told you, but hey, I could be wrong.)

-Michael
%think%

That is EXACTLY what I was thinking.

I was going to post that this is the easiest question in the world to answer.

Generally, I think you are someone's student when they say you are. But I guess this is a 2 way street. Both you and the instructor have to agree that you are his student.

My thoughts on specifically being Mr. Parker's student would be that you would have to have:
a. Been in the IKKA (or the KKA for that matter);
b. Been primarily taught by him (more than 1/2 your lessons from Mr. Parker himself);
c. Been recognized by him in some manner, I don't know what the options for this were.

I know that not even all of Mr. Parker's "students" fall into this category.

When Mr. Parker was alive, how did anyone know who were his students? I'm guessing his students were a subset of the IKKA.

Mr. C, could you answer this one for me? Or was there controversy even when he was alive?

Now that I look at this again, it is even more complex but maybe not more complex than I first thought.

Briefly, when I was with Mr. Swan at Mr. Swan's studio, in Mr. Swan's NCKKA, taking 1 class a week and 90% of private lessons from Mr. Swan, I still took 50-66% of my "group" classes from someone else but I was clearly Mr. Swan's student.

I think this goes back to my first assertion. If a teacher claims a student and the student claims a teacher, so long as they are studying together, then that is how you define that relationship.
:asian:

Look at the number of consective posts in almost total agreement with each other and the complete absence of personal attacks on this topic that could so easily degenerate into mud slinging.

All Hail the EPAK Forum! :D

And they said it couldn't be done! :rolleyes:

These are the kinds of discussions I anticipated when the EPAK idea came up.

It took me so long to finish my reply to Mr. Billings that a few people posted in front of me. That is what caught my attention and prompted me to write this post. This is great. I want Bob to run over and look at this.

Thanks everyone. This is very refreshing.
:asian:

Originally posted by cdhall
Look at the number of consective posts in almost total agreement with each other and the complete absence of personal attacks on this topic that could so easily degenerate into mud slinging.

All Hail the EPAK Forum! :D

And they said it couldn't be done! :rolleyes:

These are the kinds of discussions I anticipated when the EPAK idea came up.

It took me so long to finish my reply to Mr. Billings that a few people posted in front of me. That is what caught my attention and prompted me to write this post. This is great. I want Bob to run over and look at this.

Thanks everyone. This is very refreshing.
:asian:

I agree!!!!:cheers:

Mike

I agree for the most part, but there are some instances where it's not too clear.

For instance my instructor's instructor(for this sake, Mr. X) had 2 schools. One Mr. X ran/taught at, the other my instructor(say, Mr. Y) taught at/ran.

Often the little kids would do competition and say my instructor is Mr. Y, etc... and then they would be corrected, because while they were taught by Mr. Y, they are all students of Mr. X.

Basically, being taught by one person almost exclusively within a school doesn't necessarily make them your 'official' instructor if they don't own the school.

So it all boils down to a political idea in the end but I'm not sure that it's a bad thing. If everyone in the school does the same thing and the head guy thinks you deserve to rank up does it really matter who taught it to you? Some will say yes, others will say no.

I don't have to worry about it so it's no crisis.

Joel

P.S. This is in regards to a student attending a school exclusively and training for a decent period of time. Not seminar hoppers or style collectors. They be different beasts entirely in my view.

For me, being a personal student means I have spent one-on-one time with the instructor. Not sitting in a seminar with other people where the instructor may or may not know who you are. I have attended your seminars and have learned something from you but ama not your personal student. The word "personal" is the key.

The student should acknowledge the instructor as such and vice versa.

Derek

Originally posted by dcence
For me, being a personal student means I have spent one-on-one time with the instructor. Not sitting in a seminar with other people where the instructor may or may not know who you are.

The word "personal" is the key.

The student should acknowledge the instructor as such and vice versa.Derek



Again, I agree with you Derek, and most of the other posters in this string.... but I know of several that "s-t-r-e-t-c-h the definition" shall we say........:rofl: either for themselves {so they can have Ed Parker attached to them closely}, or they post negative assumptions to someone's wives or students, saying that they are personal students of the Seminar or Workshop Guest, when in reality they all have their own "local" personal instructor regardless if the "guest" works with anyone personally.

I do seminars and I also work with many of the students on a one on one basis during the duration of my stay with an individual host but I only consider anyone a student if: 1) they have no other teacher (unless we have agreed to allow multi-instructor training), and 2) They have asked me to teach them.

I was a personal student of Mr. Parkers for many years, yet I also "worked" with many others, some were current students of his and some were not, yet, at the end of the day...... he was my personal instructor even though I learned from others.

I carry that same tradition on today.

:asian:

I’m Cornish. Cornwall is the most SW County of the United Kingdom and many Cornish people consider it to be a separate country from England. However what defines being “Cornish”. Is it where you were born?; where you lived?; where you work?; is it being “pure blood” with X generations of Cornish ancestors? is it loving Cornwall? Or something else?.

Defining being Cornish is similar to defining the Personal Student/Instructor relationship; everybody has an opinion and who is to say who’s right?

I believe that the correct opinion is the one you truly believe? As for my personal opinion, I consider myself to be a personal student of an organization, which is the British Kenpo Karate Union. During my 14 years studying American Kenpo, I have had a few personal instructors and received instruction from many more guest instructors and been influenced by many more who I’ve only read about or seen their videos (GM Larry Tatum is the my most popular programme on TV-according to my long suffering wife).

My definition of a personal instructor is: The Instructor with whom you train regularly with, over a long time (regularity and long time are relative-hence it still boils down to personal opinion).

Following that definition over the last 14 years I was a personal student of the following British Kenpo Karate Union Instructors in alphabetical order:

Mr Damian Abbot, Mr Felix Bishop, Mr Gary Courtney, Mr Kevin Mills, GM Bob Rose, Mrs Sheila Rose (nee Milner) and Miss Diane Summers.

Currently I consider myself to be a personal student of Mr Kevin Mills (but unfortunately I can currently only share mat time with him once or twice a year-if I’m lucky) under the watchful eyes of GM Rose, the Head of the BKKU.

Cheers Dom
:asian:

Personally, I would say request and acceptance. I had to request to be someone's student and he had to accept me as such.

I was and am a peronal student of my instructor. This was not something that happned when I walked in the door the first time nor something that came about the fist year. It is something that has taken time. He accepted me as a student then after time he accecpted my as a devoted stuent who truly wanted to learn. Later he called me a disciple .
I think that a personal student differs from a student in the word pesonal.
I teach my pesonal student a little different than most students. He must meet a higher standard, and he is given more in return.
He is the one who will carry on my tachings with all my knowledge

Good question, I presented a similar one not to long ago but didn't get much response.

In my case my daily instructor teaches every class and promoted me through the early ranks. Then his father, a first generation BB of GM Parker, moved to our area and I was taught privates from him for a year and tested by him for the next couple belts. Now he has moved to open schools out of the area and I am back being taught and tested by his son. The father signs the certificates as system President and son is the VP and "instructor" on the cert. and another BB is the witness.

I consider myself a student (past or present) of both, having been promoted by both at sometime in my training. I feel both have given me a gift of themselves and I will always be greatful for that and see it as an honor to have trained with them no matter where my "journey" will take me in the future.

Bottomline: I am a student to the person that I trained with and recommended my promotion, offically or not, as long as it is acknowledged by both sides (I think I just went in circles...concentric circles at that)

Would'nt someone who trains with you on a consistent basis be your student? Whether once a week, or twice a year ?

I thought it meant as long as you are training with an instructor, then you are a personal student. At least that's what I thought.

Mr. Parker used to teach around 40 or so weekends a year. Instructors would set up Seminars or Workshops and he would teach the group and usually help the host privately as well.

If you were "helped" during the " Seminar" does this mean you were considered "student" of Ed Parkers or is there a more formal definition such as being an official association member or actually the agreement between Mr. Parker and the Instructor which seems more official to me than most who seem to be self proclaimed students due to attendance? Or are there other factors that should be considered?

Your thoughts......

:asian:

Personally, if I haven't spent a fair amount of time training in class or in private lessons with an instructor then I don't consider myself to be his/her student. If my only exposure to an instructor is at seminars then I don't consider myself to be a student of that person.

Seminars don't provide in-depth study ... they can't, by their very nature. An instructor teaching a public seminar can't go into too much depth because there are nearly always people there who don't have a foundation to keep up with anything beyond the surface material.

Now workshops are a different thing. Workshops, at least in my personal vernacular, are semi-private affairs where the instructor is working to bring the students up through a progression - it might be the instructor's standard curriculum or a special curriculum put together for that group. In the case of workshops, I might consider myself a student of the instructor.

But, generally, if I haven't spent a fair amount of time training with the instructor in a private or semi-private setting then I don't consider myself a student of that instructor.

Mike

... I have attended seminars with lots of the top Kenpoist in the world including many with Mr. Parker. Do I claim I am their student? Certainly not, that is an outrageous claim. I trained with Mr. (insert name here), but unless he says I am his student, I better not be claiming to be.

Let's flip the coin. Mr. Parker "taught" a lot of people. Even when you considered yourself his student, were you getting the material from him? Or did he send you to one of his other Black Belts for material, then work with you once or twice a year? Would you still be his student.

In your eyes ....
In his eyes ...
In the eyes of the instructor teaching you the material ....
How about in the eyes of your students ....
Or in the eyes of your peers ....
Or other Parker Black Belts?

Answer the above questions honestly, if not to us, then at least to yourself. You will know whether you were his student, or not. (I personally think he would have told you, but hey, I could be wrong.)

And you wonder why Kenpo is a mess right now? Or maybe not! And if it is, does it affect YOU?

-Michael

I agree sir. You are only their student if they say you are. What you might think or feel, doesn't matter.

In regards to the seminar issue. Attending a seminar, or series of seminars does'nt make you anyones student. You must train with the instructor who you claim. I think that the people who claim to be students of another. Know whether they speak the truth, or not. After Mr.Parker Sr. died,I bet his student enrollment jumped considerably.

Well,

There are at least 3 components...:readrules

1) attended at least 1 of their seminars
2) 1 photo of the two of you (after seminar) preferably placed on internet.
3) weekly name dropping to fellow martial arts (must be on a first name to show familiarity)

that's about it....

... I have attended seminars with lots of the top Kenpoist in the world including many with Mr. Parker. Do I claim I am their student? Certainly not, that is an outrageous claim. I trained with Mr. (insert name here), but unless he says I am his student, I better not be claiming to be.

Let's flip the coin. Mr. Parker "taught" a lot of people. Even when you considered yourself his student, were you getting the material from him? Or did he send you to one of his other Black Belts for material, then work with you once or twice a year? Would you still be his student.

In your eyes ....
In his eyes ...
In the eyes of the instructor teaching you the material ....
How about in the eyes of your students ....
Or in the eyes of your peers ....
Or other Parker Black Belts?

Answer the above questions honestly, if not to us, then at least to yourself. You will know whether you were his student, or not. (I personally think he would have told you, but hey, I could be wrong.)

And you wonder why Kenpo is a mess right now? Or maybe not! And if it is, does it affect YOU?

-Michael

I agree 100%. That was a really good post.

For me, personal student means learning the material directly from the teacher and lots of one on one time.
you can usually tell a personal student by some tangible and / or intangible recognition given by the instructor.
Although I am not a Kenpo practitioner I agree 100% with al the above posts.

Ha-Ha-Ha-Ha-Ha-Ha-Ha-Ha-Ha-Ha-Ha-Ha-Ha-Ha-Ha-Ha-Ha

You are ssooooooo right.

Guffaw,
-Michael

With video testing being a part of training now, I would add that a "personal student" is one who is physically present with their instructor.

IMO as to the seminar training. I do not feel you can claim that a seminar makes you a student of that instructor. Being a student implies to me that there is a continual learning process not a day or two.

Be proud of who you are and where you came from, your "Presonal Instructor" may be reading..........

Just a thought.

For me, being a personal student means developing a bond with your instructor/student that goes beyond the basics and regular teaching. It's having a personal relationship.
I know of some teachers that don't like this because they need to get involved with the student out of class. And they ain't necessarily McDojo's teachers.
You are on the money. I can go sit for long hours and listen to a doctor talk about some medical procedure, but it won't make me an expert in that particular subject. You have to go beyond the superficial to become a true student.

You are on the money. I can go sit for long hours and listen to a doctor talk about some medical procedure, but it won't make me an expert in that particular subject. You have to go beyond the superficial to become a true student.

I'll say it again. It doesn't matter what the student "thinks," the instructor decides who is really his student in many ways. Sometimes through written documentation, sometimes by content of what he chooses to share with you over and above a diploma. Lots of Parker diplomas out there and they are absolutely no indication of the level of the knowledge transfered. Therefore you have students on many levels. Some "general," some "specific," and some "special." I know people that Parker taught more to without a diploma than some who have diplomas.

And sometimes students even divorce themselves from their instructor in favor of their instructors instructor. Larry Tatum promoted a lot of well known black belts who seemed to have forgotten that in favor of the "Parker taught me mantra." Hell one of my black belts did the same to me.

S*** happens.

Mr. Parker used to teach around 40 or so weekends a year. Instructors would set up Seminars or Workshops and he would teach the group and usually help the host privately as well.

If you were "helped" during the " Seminar" does this mean you were considered "student" of Ed Parkers or is there a more formal definition such as being an official association member or actually the agreement between Mr. Parker and the Instructor which seems more official to me than most who seem to be self proclaimed students due to attendance? Or are there other factors that should be considered?

Your thoughts......

:asian:
Interesting line of questioning Mr. Conatser...
In one way LOTS and LOTS of people were Mr. Parker's "Student" in that they looked to him for leadership and an ongoing inspiration in the arts as well as an endless flow of education if one listened and tried to apply their mind to what he said and wrote. But that doesn't make someone a 'student', especially a personal student...of Mr. Parker.

I'd say that a personal student is someone who's only instructor would have been Mr. Parker. NOT "only ever", but someone who was taken in by Mr. Parker, accepted as a student and then had only Mr. Parker as their source of instruction in Kenpo.
Does that make sense?
What do you think?

Your Brother
John

John, good definition. I do think it is up to the instructor to take on the student ... not up to the student (post facto) to decide he or she, was one of Mr. Parker's students. Here I do mean personal students as vs all of us who were students of his Kenpo.

-Michael

My thought is that the term ‘personal’ in ‘personal student’ is something that is of little or no consequence, in reality. You are either a student of an instructor or you are not. One student can learn a great deal in class from an instructor and have almost no relationship other than that. Another can learn a fraction of what the first learned and be quite friendly outside of class. Is the first a student and the second a ‘personal student’?

Some people obviously lie about who their instructor(s) is (are).

My daughter studies with David Pantano at Counterstrike Kenpo in Philadelphia. She has been to seminars and been taught by various instructors. Among them are Larry Tatum, Clyde O’Briant, Juan Serrano, Cliff Seminerio, Sean Kelley, Edmund Parker, Jr…. Some of these instructors have spent personal time instructing her, over and above just the normal level of attention at the gatherings. Does this make her a student of any of these people? OF COURSE NOT!!

Let’s say my job transfers me to California. My daughter will no longer be studying with David Pantano. While both my daughter and Mr. Pantano would readily acknowledge that she is his student, even if they had a falling out later, that fact does not change. She will always be a student of his.

I think that the gray area comes when several (many) instructors teach in the same school.

By way of example, I will use Larry Tatum’s school in Pasadena. I do this not to drop names; I just am familiar with some of the individuals there.



Scenerio 1: Study is continued with Mr. Tatum. Mr. Tatum promotes based on increased proficiency. Also attends classes taught by Mr. O’Briant, Mr. Serrano and/or Mr. Seminerio…. She is now a student of Mr. Tatum.



Scenerio 2: Study is continued at Mr. Tatum’s school under the instruction of Mr. Serrano. Mr. Serrano gives her the bulk of her instruction. Mr. Serrano decides if and when she gets promoted. She does attend some classes during which Mr. Tatum is the instructor. She is a now a student of Mr. Serrano. While Mr. Tatum may have been on the panel for her promotion, he did give her the bulk of her training.



Scenerio 3: Same as #2 with the following exception. In witnessing my daughter in class, Mr. Tatum takes a personal interest in her martial arts studies. He takes her aside with some regularity and trains her personally. This training is over and above that which she receives from Mr. Serrano and helps her progress more rapidly and with a greater insight into kenpo. She would be justified in saying she is a student of Mr. Tatum and Mr. Serrano.



This is just my take on the question.



Mark

And sometimes students even divorce themselves from their instructor in favor of their instructors instructor. Larry Tatum promoted a lot of well known black belts who seemed to have forgotten that in favor of the "Parker taught me mantra." Hell one of my black belts did the same to me.

S*** happens.Maybe they weren't "personal" students at first? Just regular students who just happened to get a good amount of knowledge from someone without getting really involved with the instructor/master?

And then, some people try to lie to themselves as much as the others. But that's actually their problem, isn't it?

My thought is that the term ‘personal’ in ‘personal student’ is something that is of little or no consequence, in reality. You are either a student of an instructor or you are not. One student can learn a great deal in class from an instructor and have almost no relationship other than that. Another can learn a fraction of what the first learned and be quite friendly outside of class. Is the first a student and the second a ‘personal student’?Mark, by what you wrote under this paragraph I think you have an idea of what constitutes a personal student quite clear and very different from this. And that's also one that agrees to what Doc have said, quoting from your scenario 3
Mr. Tatum takes a personal interest in her martial arts studies.But I still think that the personal interest must go both ways to validate. You can take that personal interest in me as a student, but I still may think that you're just another instructor.

I agree sir. You are only their student if they say you are. What you might think or feel, doesn't matter.Absolutely! - There are many who like to re-write their MA history to satisfy their own egos - what is missing? - respect, loyalty and integrity on the part of both Instructor and Student - you gotta stay true to yourself - if you can stand in the same room face to face with your Instructor of whom you claim to be a personal student and are acknowledged as such by said Instructor then all well and good.

Its the way I roll!! (I remember Doc lol!! - looking forward to seeing you in May:ultracool )

"It is vital to recognize what you are not, in order that what you really are can emerge."

Absolutely! - There are many who like to re-write their MA history to satisfy their own egos - what is missing? - respect, loyalty and integrity on the part of both Instructor and Student - you gotta stay true to yourself - if you can stand in the same room face to face with your Instructor of whom you claim to be a personal student and are acknowledged as such by said Instructor then all well and good.

Its the way I roll!! (I remember Doc lol!! - looking forward to seeing you in May:ultracool )

"It is vital to recognize what you are not, in order that what you really are can emerge."
"I ain't mad at you"

And sometimes students even divorce themselves from their instructor in favor of their instructors instructor. Larry Tatum promoted a lot of well known black belts who seemed to have forgotten that in favor of the "Parker taught me mantra." Hell one of my black belts did the same to me.

S*** happens.
Something else I've always thought was interesting. How many 2nd Gen BB can you name that came from the Pasadena Studio on Walnut and how many can you name that came from the W. LA studio? Please, give me some names from the Pasadena studio cuz I don't know of any.

DarK LorD

Absolutely! - There are many who like to re-write their MA history to satisfy their own egos - what is missing? - respect, loyalty and integrity on the part of both Instructor and Student - you gotta stay true to yourself - if you can stand in the same room face to face with your Instructor of whom you claim to be a personal student and are acknowledged as such by said Instructor then all well and good.

Its the way I roll!! (I remember Doc lol!! - looking forward to seeing you in May:ultracool )

"It is vital to recognize what you are not, in order that what you really are can emerge."
If that is the requirement, I wonder if I qualify LOL? What you just said is the bottom line, spot on mate.

DarK LorD

I don't know about personal students...but I have a kid the others have dubbed my "padu'an!

:jedi1:

I may have to adopt him!

Originally Posted by JenniM
Absolutely! - There are many who like to re-write their MA history to satisfy their own egos .......
loved this bit

Yeh, Kenpo has it's fair share of Re-written & Re-invented instructors, masters and even now grand masters history.

Oh!, to be a personal student of someone you have to have given money too someone who went to a ""s-e-m-i-n-a-r"" and had his photo taken with someone who trained with the person to whom you are a personal student.
These are of course the minimum requirements as lais down in the Hong Kong book of Kung Fooee.

loved this bit
There are of course, the minimum requirements as laid down in the Hong Kong book of Kung Fooee.
Hey........ I want a copy !!

:-partyon:

It'll cost YA! $$$$$$$$$...when you haveTransfered the funds I will photo copy a HKP manual!
Richy

It'll cost YA! $$$$$$$$$...when you haveTransfered the funds I will photo copy a HKP manual!
Richy
:ultracool