Why won't EPAK ever reunite under one association?

Because whenever EPAK people disagree with each other they run off and form a new association, start a new school, or go post on another forum. That's why.

Can't we all just get along?

OFK


Another reason could be that some want to be the big man in chagre and make good money, and if they cant do that in one association, they will make one were they can.

Another reason could be that an individual could have an idea for how they can innovate kenpo and when their ideas meet resistance in their own org. they start their own where those who think alike can join them.

Those two reasons will be my little contribution to the thread.

Greed, ego, arrogance- in kenpo the dark side are they.:)

... shame on me. Burned twice, shame on you.

There have been a lot of Associations come and gone in the 13+ years since Mr. Parker's leaving us. Not all have been honorable, but most have. Not all did what they said they would do, but most tried.

Individuals who are fairly high ranking now got their base second or even third hand. The loyalty they feel is to their instructors, not necessarily an "Association" floating out there somewhere. Especially the ones that don't have camps, or reach out to their membership. I see this as related to the "learning your Kenpo at seminars", trend that has been forced on a lot of people.

When people look at others and see the strife, arguing, politics, or just don't see the "relationship", or they don't feel the "family" of the extended Kenpo family, it is hard to create what they have never known. It is tough when you see others much higher ranking, and your teachers are better than them, and lower ranking. It is hard when you expect something from an individual representative of an Association, or the Association managment, and you do not get it.

Lots and Lots of reasons why the System is evolving under so many different people. You could liken it to the breakdown of the nuclear family, as has occurred in the later half of the 20th century, and continues into the 21st.

"And all the king's horses, and all the king's men, couldn't put Kenpo together again."

... sadley,
-Michael

Originally posted by MartialArtsGuy
OFK


Another reason could be that some want to be the big man in chagre and make good money, and if they cant do that in one association, they will make one were they can.

Another reason could be that an individual could have an idea for how they can innovate kenpo and when their ideas meet resistance in their own org. they start their own where those who think alike can join them.

Those two reasons will be my little contribution to the thread.

Greed, ego, arrogance- in kenpo the dark side are they.:)

*l we prolly should let the women run things. They tend to have less ego and arrogance issues.

Originally posted by Ender
*l we prolly should let the women run things. They tend to have less ego and arrogance issues.

Robin Williams once quipped that "The president should be a woman! There would be no more wars...but one week out of the month there would be some very intense negotiations...:argue:

Not that I believe that mind you:rolleyes: since in the 21 years I have been married I have never experienced anything to substantiate that belief;)

Originally posted by Marcus Buonfiglio
but one week out of the month there would be some very intense negotiations...:argue:

Marcus,

One week a month!!!!!!!!! Ive been married for 17 years and I can tell you, she is in charge 31 days a month. I lost a long time ago!!!! LOL!!!

Originally posted by Fastmover
Marcus,

One week a month!!!!!!!!! Ive been married for 17 years and I can tell you, she is in charge 31 days a month. I lost a long time ago!!!! LOL!!!
:rofl: :eek: :rofl: ;)
RESISTANCE IS FUTILE!!!



Your very married Brother
John

Originally posted by Ender
we should let the women run things.

The IKKA has been run by a woman, Mrs Parker, for many years.

She has had her supporters, and her critics. Would it have been any different if a man ran the association? I don't think so.

Personally, I think Mrs Parker has done her level best to do a difficult job in a difficult situation.

Les

Just some questions,

1. Why do we need any one organization to lead all of Kenpo?
2. If I had a school, why would I feel compelled to join an organization?
3. If I had a school and a method of teaching, why would I need to have approval/acceptance by some global body?
4. Did they have organizations at any level over the arts back in the early days? Why do we need them in these times?

Now my piece,

If you feel better being part of an organization, then you should join one.
If you feel you would meet more people and ideas by joining one, then you probably should.
If you think that the publicity would make you more money by hosting seminars through this organization, I guess that's your perogative.
If all it leads to is political bickering, then it probably isn't worth the time.

It seems that the higher you get to the top, the further you get from the practitioners. You may get to parade around the country and sign a lot of photos but I would say beware of straying too far from what Kenpo is all about.

Well, we all have opinions.

-Michael

Originally posted by MisterMike
[B]Just some questions,

[quote]1. Why do we need any one organization to lead all of Kenpo?

By having an umbrella so to speak that you can be under, rather than having 'X' number of smaller groups doing what they want, you can have the same groups all doing the same thing, teaching the same way, and all following the same ideas.

2. If I had a school, why would I feel compelled to join an organization?

You dont have to. By doing so, you have the chance to have a large body that can sanction the way things are done. You also have the chance to be a part of functions that are held by the org. It also might give some credibility to your school as far as a potential new student goes.

3. If I had a school and a method of teaching, why would I need to have approval/acceptance by some global body?

Again, the idea of the org. is to have some order to the way things are done. Again, its just an option.


4. Did they have organizations at any level over the arts back in the early days? Why do we need them in these times?

Dont really know. I'm sure that there was some sort of org. but was it like it is today? Not sure.

Mike

I can see a few perks to it. I guess it is my conservative nature. Unless I see true reason and benefit I'm a little resistant to change.

Thanks!

Well, let's see what I can say to honk folks off. I know! I'll repeat myself.

1. There never was any unification in kenpo. Or in other martial arts. The notion that we now should unify, based on the Garden of Eden fantasy of the past especially, is a fantasy.

2. It's not going to happen.

3. Good thing, too, given the nature of the folks who seem to be pushing for unification.

4. Kenpo boot camp?!...no, I better not.

5. I can't tell you how happy these conversations make me that, while I assuredly don't know all that much, I know enough that I can train, and learn, and teach effectively, in my back yard if need be.

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
Well, let's see what I can say to honk folks off. I know! I'll repeat myself.

1. There never was any unification in kenpo. Or in other martial arts. The notion that we now should unify, based on the Garden of Eden fantasy of the past especially, is a fantasy.

2. It's not going to happen.

3. Good thing, too, given the nature of the folks who seem to be pushing for unification.

4. Kenpo boot camp?!...no, I better not.

5. I can't tell you how happy these conversations make me that, while I assuredly don't know all that much, I know enough that I can train, and learn, and teach effectively, in my back yard if need be.

Yeah, I suppose, but if you look at it on the other hand, maybe if there was someone to take over for Parker, there would not be all the chaos that there is today. Look at Small Circle Juijitsu. Wally Jay left his son and another person in charge of his art after he passes. When Parker passed, everybody went their separte ways, and is doing their own thing, which is fine, but maybe you would not have all the fighting about the silly things, like the big 16/24/32 debate. Who cares how many techs are being taught? The number should not be the issue. Its all Parker no matter what. What should really matter is can you make the techs. work?

Mike

Oh for...

Do you honestly think that Back In The Good Old Days, Nobody Behaved Pettily?

By some standards, things have improved. None of the most-senior people in the art have died in San Quentin, where there were fairly-properly sent for getting one of their black belts to try killing two old people with a screwdriver. (Which, I've felt, speaks volumes about Mr. Mitose's skill as either a martial artist or a teacher...one survived.)

Not to mention the idea of royalty, and transmission of teachings and head-of-style status by birth...it's the Star Wars sickness (we inherit our place in life), and as an American, I object.

Another name for chaos is, "creative ferment." Let a thousand flowers bloom.

Tonight's aphorism: anybody who seeks power shouldn't be allowed to have it...

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
[B]Oh for...

[quote]Do you honestly think that Back In The Good Old Days, Nobody Behaved Pettily?

I"m sure they did. Only difference now is that it is worse.


Not to mention the idea of royalty, and transmission of teachings and head-of-style status by birth...it's the Star Wars sickness (we inherit our place in life), and as an American, I object.

Well, look at it this way. If there was someone left to take things over, maybe you'd have less chiefs and more indians.

Mike

I think this issue is very clouded. The issue is not who is or is not best qualified to lead Kenpo. The issue is that we are living in the age of non-accountability. I am sure that Mr. Billings and even Mr. Robertson can agree with me on this. We are living in a time when people are taught that failure is not their fault. We live in a society that perpetuates people without basic skills being passed in schools to the next grade so as not to hurt their egos. Then the teacher is blamed for the person not learning. This translates into everything. What I see that has happened is that a lot of very talented and intelligent people that were all taught the same basic things in different ways (based on their strengths) have different perspectives. Unfortunately, while most of them are personally friends, the professional relationships all but disintegrated. One person gets mad at a peer and instead of examining the why or the how (does this sound like someone we know?) they leave and join/form their own assosciation. The down side is the constant bickering and urinary olympiads and the good old genitalia measuring contests. The plus side is that no matter what your strength or interest, their is an assosciation/senior out there that can and will suit your needs. I joined the IKKO, not because I felt the need personally for the organization, but because I wanted to be a student of Mr. Conatser. As a result, my students have come under that umbrella which has made me a better teacher and helped me to help them greatly improve their skills. Could I have done this under Mr. Mill or Mr. Tatum, ad infinum. Sure, but I found the group that was most in line with my methods and way of thinking. Should we let a woman run Kenpo? If she has her own Organization, sure why not? Will all of AK ever reunify? Nope. Can't happen. Instead of reunification (we are not romulans) we should be looking for open communications and brotherhood and in a lot of respects this is already happening.

Originally posted by Seig
Instead of reunification (we are not romulans) we should be looking for open communications and brotherhood and in a lot of respects this is already happening.

I feel that Mr. Seigel has stated the most important thing... we must try to create open lines of communication and if you look throughout the Kenpo community, this is happening already... take for example the recent Homecoming Camp or the Boston Internationals.

Unity does exist, just in different ways. I have attended many training camps from Mr. Cappi's, to Mr. Speakman's, to even Mr. Mills, and each time I am greeted with respect and acceptance as a Kenpo practicioner.

In the end, that is all we are... students of the Art, no matter what affiliations or non-affiliations. We might choose one association to link to more than another, but we all can learn from each other...

Respectfully,
Joshua Ryer

Ah, the fantasy that Once Upon A Time things were perfect!

Behind all these demands for, "unity," I smell the will-to-power.

Ah, the fantasy that Once Upon A Time things were perfect!

Behind all these demands for, "unity," I smell the will-to-power. I smell the desire to find Dad. I smell the longing for what never was.

Originally posted by rmcrobertson

Ah, the fantasy that Once Upon A Time things were perfect!

Behind all these demands for, "unity," I smell the will-to-power. I smell the desire to find Dad. I smell the longing for what never was.

Robert,

I think you have something there... Ed Parker was a father figure for many Kenpoists. Just look in the Journey and see for yourself. Many of the people that were featured in this book communicated this kind of feeling about him. Was he a good or bad man? I'm not in a position to make this kind of judgment. But, I will tell you this... He did make a hell of an impact on us didn't he?

I don't think its right or wrong for someone to look up to an instructor, but I do think that it’s damaging to idolize anyone to a point that he or she can do no wrong. The need to feel important sometimes clouds our judgment as human beings. Sheesh, our egos can make us do some pretty stupid things sometimes. I think the martial arts not only develop our strengths as people, but also show us our weaknesses. Now if we could only work past those weaknesses we'd probably get somewhere, eh?

To any interested,

I thought that the IKKA was reunifying? Has'nt Mrs.Parker Sr., stepped down? Was'nt there some talk about the Association going public? I know that I read that Mr.Trejo, and some of the more senior former leaders were being approached about becoming re-involved. What happened with all that? I am greatly in favor of an umbrella organization for EPAK practioners. I would welcome a strong international organization. One where we can be trained, and recognized under standardized materials,ie.this IS Leaping Crane, or this IS Long 4, etc.,etc.. I feel if you are'nt teaching the techniques, and forms as Mr.Parker laid them out. You should not call your system American Kenpo. I don't mean to say you can't or should'nt put your own personal stamp on what you teach, but a line has to be drawn some where. If you have changed more than 20% of the material you are teaching. Should'nt you resist calling it Parker System American Kenpo? I think with all the fragmenting of the system over the last decade or so. We are in grave danger of losing our history... I am not attempting to deify Mr.Parker, or his ideas. I just think being able to point to a clear history is a nice thing.
Salute in Christ
:asian:

Donald,
The IKKA has indeed been approaching seniors such as Mr. Trejo and Mr. Planas. Mrs. Parker didn't "step down", the orgainzation was sold. To an extent you are right, it would be nice to have a unified governing body. I believe the AKSC tried just that. I personally feel the IKKA will fall very short. They may attract some of the seniors back, but certainly not all. Let's use Doc as an example. He teaches his "Sub Level ", and I am willing to wager that he would argue extensively that he does "Parker Kenpo", but there is no way what he does would fit into the frame work of what you suggest. I could say the same thing of Mr. Sullivan, or even Mr. Pick, you get the idea. I don't feel we are in danger of losing our history, we're still creating it. Who is to say exactly how any technique or form is done? Mr. Parker was constantly changing things. So what this means is that Mr. Sullivan's "Leaping Crane" and Mr. Tatum's may be different, yet similiar. For that matter, Mr. Tracy and company were at one time Mr. Parker's Kenpo as well. How would you feel if he were to come in and say, "No, this is how you do 5 swords." There are a lot of strong good organizations out there, I do not believe there can be ONE end all be all organization out there. Here's another example, Mr. Conatser requires to do the opposite side of everything, forms, sets, techs, etc.... That has been an ongoing discussion between him and many seniors. How would you feel if your "organization/system" suddenly started/stopped requiring them. Those that had to start would probable be upset because of the additional work, those that had to stop would be upset because they would feel there work was unrecognized as valuable. This could go on and on. I have seen video of Mr. Parker where he stressed that his techs were "only ideas" of how to do something. There is so much available out there, it would be a shame if it was lost due to unity. As I said before, as long as brother hood between organizations and practitioners exist, we can only continue to grow, and hopefully improve.

I simply don't believe for a minute that the majority of these calls for unity have anything to do with anything other than power-seeking, and money-grubbing.

I continue to be glad that, at this point, I've been taught how to keep training, learning, and teaching in my very own back yard.

I agree with you, Seig

While I know little of the situation, logically speaking, too much time has passed, many things have changed to make it work like it did beofre. Besides, you're missing the most important element, SGM Parker himself.:asian:

I agree with mr. Castillo. The time has passed, and you cannot force-feed history. Look what happened in the old Soviet Union.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by rmcrobertson
[B]I simply don't believe for a minute that the majority of these calls for unity have anything to do with anything other than power-seeking, and money-grubbing.

Well, when Parker had the IKKA, that was an org. Do you think that he was pawer seeking and money grubbing???

Mike

Originally posted by MJS

Well, when Parker had the IKKA, that was an org. Do you think that he was pawer seeking and money grubbing???

Mike

Don't lose sight of the fact that Kenpo and the IKKA weren't a hobby to Mr Parker, they were his business interests.

Les

I've no idea what Mr. Parker was thinking, nor is it terribly relevant.

I do know what I read in most of the calls for "unity," I presently see.

Robert wrote:

Ah, the fantasy that Once Upon A Time things were perfect!

Behind all these demands for, "unity," I smell the will-to-power. I smell the desire to find Dad. I smell the longing for what never was.

I couldn't agree with this more! I have to admit that I agree with just about everything Robert posts except when we are discussing cross-training, groundfighting, or changing the system

You know I started this thread with my tongue in my cheek to poke fun at Kenpoists getting mad at MartialTalk and leaving to join another forum. I was trying to compare our recent episodes with Kirk, Brian, Clyde, etc. to the history of Kenpo...Once again, I am the only one laughing at my joke? :shrug:

We take ourselves so seriously! Of course EPAK will never be reunited into one organization.

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
Of course EPAK will never be reunited into one organization.

with all the politics going on right now, you are right

Originally posted by Les
[quote]Don't lose sight of the fact that Kenpo and the IKKA weren't a hobby to Mr Parker, they were his business interests.

Les [/B]

I understand that and I'm not saying that is was a hobby. I was replying to Robs remark about the orgs being power seeking and money hungry. I stated that I dont think thats the case with all the orgs., including the IKKA.

Mike

Originally posted by CoolKempoDude
with all the politics going on right now, you are right

It has nothing to do with "politics."

From the beginning as Parker evolved, he had students who had achieved a certain level in their mind who were not interested in "changing" or "evolving" with Ed Parker. They had attained "status" and/or a level of knowledge they were satisfied with, and decided to move on for a variety of reasons including personal differences.

They established their own businesses, kenpo interpretations, and subsequent lineage.

Ibrao, etc left in the fifties. Perry, German, Al & Jim Tracy etc in the sixties, Kelly, Dimmick, etc in the seventies, Pick, Tatum etc in the eighties. Many came back, many didn't. Many more left after Parker passed

Parker was a student himself who moved in many directions as he gleened information from an abundance of resources. Some stayed in the business area with Parker. Some stayed for rank. Everyone had their own reasons for what they did. Some honorable, some not.

The point is simply there can never be a reunification of an entity that has never been unified. Direct lineage to Parker is no guarantee of anything other than some nebulous relationship. Parker promoted many people for many reasons, and frankly the majority of them over his lifteime were plain awful. I have always said the quality of what is being taught has always been, and will always be placed at the feet of the teacher in front of you.

What was learned, when it was learned, and an individuals own capabilities, and desires in conjunction with Parker's knowledge and willingness to share at the time all determine what someone might have learned and now teaches.

There is no standard EPAK other the the "conceptual" Infinite Insight volumes and manuals he sold for his "business" of kenpo, and the manuals changed about 5 times. What Sullivan learned is different from what Planas learned, that's different from what Trejo learned, that's different from what Hancock learned, and they are all "different" from me.

Therefore an evaluation of the efficacy of what's taught, as well as lineage should begin and end with the person standing in front of you. Who's right? Everybody. Who's wrong? Nobody. Are we unified? Yes, we all do Kenpo. Will we all ever come under one curriculum that everyone can look to for "correctness?" No.

It was never that way and never will be. Move on, it's a moot question.

Boy, that was a succinct assessment, and helpful to lots hopefully.

-Michael:asian:

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka

You know I started this thread with my tongue in my cheek to poke fun at Kenpoists getting mad at MartialTalk and leaving to join another forum. I was trying to compare our recent episodes with Kirk, Brian, Clyde, etc. to the history of Kenpo...Once again, I am the only one laughing at my joke? :shrug:

We take ourselves so seriously! Of course EPAK will never be reunited into one organization.

Joke? Not funny. Sad really. Instead of using the internet to further our divides, we should be using it to communicate and share our differences in a constructive manner. Just a thought Old Fat Kenpoka. :shrug:

As for the Whole of Kenpo ever being united under one flag... I agree with Doc. His post was right on the money! ;)

Um...are we talking about unification, or about corporatism? That is, are we discussing the ideas that unify kenpo and how nice it might be if the folks quialified to decide some matters decided them, or are we talking about organizing kenpo as a business?

Originally posted by Doc


What Sullivan learned is different from what Planas learned, that's different from what Trejo learned, that's different from what Hancock learned, and they are all "different" from me.



since you mentioned about the *different* between you and parker's students, you mean the FIRST DIFFERENT moves or LAST DIFFERENT moves of 1 technique??????

example, let say you all learn Basic technique number 1 ok?

your first 2 moves of this technique is different from other guys ????

if that is the case, you guys all do kenpo BUT do it DIFFERENTLY.

Originally posted by CoolKempoDude
since you mentioned about the *different* between you and parker's students,


You've misunderstood. My point is the difference between Parker students


you mean the FIRST DIFFERENT moves or LAST DIFFERENT moves of 1 technique??????
example, let say you all learn Basic technique number 1 ok?
your first 2 moves of this technique is different from other guys ????
if that is the case, you guys all do kenpo BUT do it DIFFERENTLY.

I really don't understand what you're attempting to say. Let me clarify it this way. Some Parker students do techniques differently than others but share the same concepts and philosophy. Philosophically and conceptually in many ways I differ even from them.

Originally posted by Doc
It has nothing to do with "politics."

From the beginning as Parker evolved, he had students who had achieved a certain level in their mind who were not interested in "changing" or "evolving" with Ed Parker. They had attained "status" and/or a level of knowledge they were satisfied with, and decided to move on for a variety of reasons including personal differences.

The Greatest hinderance to learning is to believe that you already know.
Yeah, you can quote me. ;)

Hey MJS, you said this further upstream here:
By having an umbrella so to speak that you can be under, rather than having 'X' number of smaller groups doing what they want, you can have the same groups all doing the same thing, teaching the same way, and all following the same ideas.

I see "all doing the same thing, teaching the same way, and all following the same ideas " as a real liability, not an advantage.
Care to differ? (in a nice, friendly way)

Your Brother
John

Originally posted by Brother John
[quote]Hey MJS, you said this further upstream here:


I see "all doing the same thing, teaching the same way, and all following the same ideas " as a real liability, not an advantage.
Care to differ? (in a nice, friendly way)

Your Brother
John [/B]

Sure! First, how do you see it as a liability? By having an org. or things in a more uniform fashion, maybe you wont have all the arguments about how many techs. are being taught--16,24,32, etc. By having things more uniform, maybe there wont always be arguments about "Well, I do it this way, so your way must be wrong!" Both of us have seen that many times on here.

Mike

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
[B]Um...are we talking about unification, or about corporatism? That is, are we discussing the ideas that unify kenpo and how nice it might be if the folks quialified to decide some matters decided them

I dont know about anyone else, but this is what I"m talking about.

Mike

its hard enough to spark creativity and inclusion in our current disorganization... imagine if the "in crowd" had the backing of an official allpowerfuk be-all-and-end all organization....

Originally posted by MJS
maybe there wont always be arguments about "Well, I do it this way, so your way must be wrong!"

Just because someone does a technique differently doesn't mean it's wrong.

The techniques should be tailored to the individual, not the other way round. I frequently teach techniques to different students in different ways, but the principles and concepts remain in place.

In my opinion, the only thing you can do 'wrong' in Kenpo is to do nothing. That'll get you hurt for sure.

Les

Originally posted by MJS
Sure! First, how do you see it as a liability? By having an org. or things in a more uniform fashion, maybe you wont have all the arguments about how many techs. are being taught--16,24,32, etc. By having things more uniform, maybe there wont always be arguments about "Well, I do it this way, so your way must be wrong!" Both of us have seen that many times on here.

Mike

I understand where you are coming from Mike, but there is one big presumption in what you are saying:
1: That what people do or do not argue about on this or any internet medium impacts me or my training in any way.

I wouldn't want to unify Kenpo so that everyone is doing the same thing the same way... just to keep people on the internet from bickering.

I see it as a liability because the diverse ways in which Kenpo has been and is evolving make everyone better. If you were to "Bring everyone together" doing the 'same thing'... who would decide on what that 'thing(s)' would be? To further appease you'd need to drop some very good work that many different people have created/innovated.

You could go with the concept of taking things back to exactly the way things were before Mr. Parker's death. But I'm afraid I agree with my brother Robert on this one... that's an idealistic fantasy. Even then no-one would be able to agree on HOW it was all done. The percieved unity of yesteryear is nice, I'd like to believe in it to... but I don't think it's realistic. PLUS: you'd again have to dump a LOT of very good things that have come about after Mr. Parker's death.

Mr. Parker's students were a fertile ground in which he planted his genious... but now those plants have evolved; even without the original gardener... and the garden is richer for those changes.
Though the gardener is dearly missed. (even he liked to grow things differently across the board.)

Just my thoughts.
Your Brother
John

Kenpo people are so frikkin serious!

I started this thread as a parody of the Kenpoists who recently left MartialTalk for another forum because they disagreed with or were offended by something somebody wrote. I was comparing that to the way Kenpoists fragment into associations.

Now, more than 10 years after it was perfectly clear that Kenpo would never have a single (or even a single dozen) organization, you guys are still hashing it out.

Knock it off! Lighten up! Have some fun! Go read posts in the Locker Room Forum!

:( :p ;) :D :rofl:

We should lighten up!!!!!
Thanks

Your Brother
John

"Angels fly because they take themselves lightly."
Robin Williams

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes, duder.

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes, duder.

Care to elaborate?





In English???
Thanks


Your Brother (who never took Latin, but would like to... ya lucky Devil)
John

I never did either--I got it from a "Watchmen," comic--oddly enough, it impressed the living hell out of one of my grad school professors.

It's an old Roman remark--Juvenal, I believe--" who shall guard the guardians."

Originally posted by Les
Just because someone does a technique differently doesn't mean it's wrong.

The techniques should be tailored to the individual, not the other way round. I frequently teach techniques to different students in different ways, but the principles and concepts remain in place.

In my opinion, the only thing you can do 'wrong' in Kenpo is to do nothing. That'll get you hurt for sure.

Les

I realize that you cant expect a 4yo child, a 5'3, 105lb woman, and a 6'5, 225lb man to do the tech. the same. I'm talking about the different variations of the tech. I'm sure if you took Tatum, Palanzo, or any others, there is a good chance that they way they executed the tech. might be different.

What I was referring to one group saying, "Well, I'm in this org. and this is my Inst. and this is the way to do it. Anything else is wrong. If you dont do it this way, then you must not know what you're talking about." Come on Les, we have both seen alot of that in these forums.

Mike

Originally posted by Brother John
I understand where you are coming from Mike, but there is one big presumption in what you are saying:
1: That what people do or do not argue about on this or any internet medium impacts me or my training in any way.

I wouldn't want to unify Kenpo so that everyone is doing the same thing the same way... just to keep people on the internet from bickering.

I see it as a liability because the diverse ways in which Kenpo has been and is evolving make everyone better. If you were to "Bring everyone together" doing the 'same thing'... who would decide on what that 'thing(s)' would be? To further appease you'd need to drop some very good work that many different people have created/innovated.

You could go with the concept of taking things back to exactly the way things were before Mr. Parker's death. But I'm afraid I agree with my brother Robert on this one... that's an idealistic fantasy. Even then no-one would be able to agree on HOW it was all done. The percieved unity of yesteryear is nice, I'd like to believe in it to... but I don't think it's realistic. PLUS: you'd again have to dump a LOT of very good things that have come about after Mr. Parker's death.

Mr. Parker's students were a fertile ground in which he planted his genious... but now those plants have evolved; even without the original gardener... and the garden is richer for those changes.
Though the gardener is dearly missed. (even he liked to grow things differently across the board.)

Just my thoughts.
Your Brother
John

Bro John, you're very correct in the above statements! Actually, considering I was one of the people on here that is always pushing for change and modification, I can't believe that I was actually sitting here, saying that there should be a more structured org!

I suppose the main things that people should be concerned about is that fact that there are many good people out there that are spreading Parkers art. Granted there are gonna be differences, but hey, at least we're all doing Kenpo, right!

Mike

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
I never did either--I got it from a "Watchmen," comic--oddly enough, it impressed the living hell out of one of my grad school professors.

It's an old Roman remark--Juvenal, I believe--" who shall guard the guardians."

Rumor has it that the Watchmen is on a freshman reading list at Cornell.

I actually wouldn't mind if everybody in kenpo learned the same system, basically--or at least the same damn basics. Then maybe we wouldn't see some of the silly nonsense that even I've seen, in my limited attendance at tournaments.

Regrettably, I don't believe for a moment that unification of technique (and hey! if we did this, everybody'd have to learn the sets and forms decently! all right!) has much to do with these ideas about unifying kenpo. I think it's money, and power. Businessmen's associations. Folks muttering about passing legislation.

I repeat: I'm lucky, I gots me enough training (well, just enough), and I gots me my back yard.

But if kenpo is what Mr. Parker seems to've thought it was--a "martial science," a rationalization of all that goes on, sometimes more-haphazardly, in all the other arts--well, then kenpo is already unified. We just haven't noticed.

One way to test this: next time you see a technique that looks odd to you, or something that looks like a radical, pointless change in a form--including the repeated insistence that the forms are a waste of time--ask the practitioner WHY they're doing what they're doing.

If the answer boils down to, "Was I doing something different?" or, "Because that's what I was told," or, "Because this is what Mitose learned from his aunt," or, "Because if you're fighting eighteen guys on top of a bus in Hawaii, you need to be aware that taro root might be part of their diet," or, "Because an AK-47 can come with a folding stock," or, "Because boxers and judo people are better martial artists because they're more realistic," or, "Because the interstellar mediumistic rotatrional energeticism dictates the deployment of spinal energies in concomittant counterposition to the chi at Range 17 in this dialectic combat," or "WHO SAID YOU COULD QUESTION ME?" well then, they're messing with the unity of kenpo.

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
I never did either--I got it from a "Watchmen," comic--oddly enough, it impressed the living hell out of one of my grad school professors.

It's an old Roman remark--Juvenal, I believe--" who shall guard the guardians."
OK... that's pretty cool.
Thanks for sharing.
Your Bro.
John

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
But if kenpo is what Mr. Parker seems to've thought it was--a "martial science," a rationalization of all that goes on, sometimes more-haphazardly, in all the other arts--well, then kenpo is already unified. We just haven't noticed.


THAT is a profound thought.
Thanks for sharing it!

really makes you think.

Your Brother
John

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
Kenpo people are so frikkin serious!

I started this thread as a parody of the Kenpoists who recently left MartialTalk for another forum because they disagreed with or were offended by something somebody wrote. I was comparing that to the way Kenpoists fragment into associations.

Now, more than 10 years after it was perfectly clear that Kenpo would never have a single (or even a single dozen) organization, you guys are still hashing it out.

Knock it off! Lighten up! Have some fun! Go read posts in the Locker Room Forum!

If all you want to do is stirr the pot than post somewhere else... The Mud Hut would be a good place to start. :shrug:

Originally posted by MJS
Bro John, you're very correct in the above statements! Actually, considering I was one of the people on here that is always pushing for change and modification, I can't believe that I was actually sitting here, saying that there should be a more structured org!

I suppose the main things that people should be concerned about is that fact that there are many good people out there that are spreading Parkers art. Granted there are gonna be differences, but hey, at least we're all doing Kenpo, right!

Mike
You're a good man Mike! Not just for agreeing with me (though there are brownie points in the mail fer'ya)... but for realizing and admitting that your prior statements contradicted what you've clung to for a while... that the outcome of the different chain's/branches of Kenpo is a Good thing. On more than one occassion I've had to take a step... or five... back and say "ooh; who said that load of poo? ....Oh, that was me?" and then go back and reasert some good sense into my posts. At least yours was grounded in an understandable sentiment!

I especially like your second parapraph here:
I suppose the main things that people should be concerned about is that fact that there are many good people out there that are spreading Parkers art. Granted there are gonna be differences, but hey, at least we're all doing Kenpo, right!
Right!
Keep the faith brother

Your Brother (who likes his crow served with a side of beans)
John
:asian: