I'm not going to go into the who set of requirements for the belt, just the techniques. If you want to see the criteria go to my webpage and click on the grey crest.

Delayed Sword
(front - right hand lapel grab)

1)Standing naturally, step back with your left foot toward 6:00
into a right neutral bow stance facing 12:00, while simultaneously
executing a right inward block to the right inner wrist of your
opponent's right hand lapel grab. At the same time position your
left hand at solar-plexus level as a precautionary check against
further action. (Your block should expose the width of his body.)

2)Immediatly slide your right foot back into a 45 degree cat
stance.

3)Without hesitation deliver a right front ball snap kick to your
opponent's groin. (Your opponent's reaction should cause him to
bend forward at the waist.)

4)Plant your right foot forward into a right neutral bow (facing
12:00), to check your opponent's right knee, as you deliver a
right outward hand sword to the right side of your opponent's
neck. Remember to maintain the position of your left hand as a
precautionary check. Immediatly slide your right hand (after the
strike) to the right wrist of your opponent as a precautionary
check. (Your opponent's response should cause him to fall to the
ground.)

)Alternating Maces
(front - two-hand push)

1)Standing naturally, and as your opponent attempts to push you, step back
with your left foor toward 6:00 into a right neutral bow stance (facing
12:00). Simultaneously execute a right inward block to the outside of your
opponent's left arm, while your left hand checks at your solar plexus.
(This action should turn the width of your opponent's body, and redirect
his forward momentum off center.)

2)Immediatly collapse your right arm across the top of both of your
opponent's arms (to act as checks), as you deliver a left vertical thrust
punch (tracking over your right arm) to your opponent's sternum or solar
plexus. This is done while pivoting into a right forward bow stance.
Remember, both the stance change and punch must work in sychronization
with each other in order to maximize the force of your left vertical thrust
punch. (Your opponent's reaction should cause his body to bend forward at
the waist.)

3)Immediatly convert your left punch into a check by having it shift, palm
open and down, on top of both your opponent's arms. Simultaneously have your
right hand rapidly travel inside and over your left arm as you deliver a
right outward back knuckle strike to your opponent's right temple. This
transition is done while pivoting back into a right neautral bow stance.
(The torque stemming from your stance change helps to increase the whipping
action of your right hand, and, if properly executed, should cause your
opponent's head to be driven up and back, with the possibility of his arms
flailing upward.)

4)Immediatly have your right hand snap back, and it then acts as a positional
check.

#3)Sword Of Destruction
(front - left straight or roundhouse punch)

1)Standing naturally, step back with your left foot toward 6:00 into a right neautral bow stance (facing 12:00), as you simultaneously execute a right outward extended block to the inner forearm of your opponent's left punch. Your left hand should be in a positional check at your right shoulder.

2)Immediatly slide your right foot forward into a 45 degree cat stance to create forward body momentum.

3)Without hesitation deliver a right front snap ball kick to your opponent's groin. (Your kick shoul dcause your opponent to bend forward at the waist.)

4)While planting your right foot forward, inside of your opponent's left leg, and into a right neutral bow (facing 12:00), employ marriage of gravity as you execute a right inward handsword strike to the left side of your opponent's neck. (This action should cause your opponent to fall to the ground.)

5)Immediatly snap your right hand back to the left shoulder of your opponent to act as a check.

#4)Deflecting Hammer
(front - right front thrust kick)

1)Standing naturally, step back with your left foot toward 7:30 into a right neutral bow stance (to move out of your opponent's line of attack), as you simultaneously execute a right outside downward diagonal block against the outsode of your opponent's right kicking leg. Be sure to have your left check at your solar plexus during your block. (Your opponent's body should turn slightly to his left when your block is properly executed. Your block should additionally, turn your opponent's width, and cause injury to his leg.)

2)Without hesitation, and while still in your right neutral bow, shuffle forward as your left hand checks inward toward and between your opponent's right shoulder and bicep. Your right hand continues to circle, and will re-orbit into an inward elbow strike. (Make sure your left hand checks your opponent's forward momentum as well as the width of his upper body.)

3)Just as you conclude your shuffle execute a right inward horizontal elbow strike to your opponent's face. This is done simultaneously with a left sliding check down and onto your opponent's right elbow. (The effects of both actions should cause your opponent's head to snap back and possibly have your opponent drop to the ground.)

#5)Captured Twigs
(rear - bear hug with arms pinned)

1)Standing naturally, with your opponent's arms around your arms, step to 9:00 with your left foot into a horse stance (While looking over your right shoulder), and simultaneously pin your opponent's hands to your body with your left hand. Just as your weight settles into your horse stance, execute a right back hammerfist strike to your opponent's groin. (This action should cause your opponent to bend forward at the waist, and possibly release his grasp.)

2)Immediatly slide your right foot into a right cat stance (turning 90 degrees while facing 3:00), as your left hand releases the pin, clears your opponent's right arm, and covers the front of your face as a positional check. Simultaneously with the action of your left arm have your right hand cover your groin, and proceed to clear your opponent's left arm. 3)Execute a right heel stomp kick to your opponent's left instep, causing your opponent to bend foreward even further.

4)Slide your right foot back toward 3:00 into a horse stance. Immediately have your right forarm contour (track) up the middle of your opponent's body as you execute a right vertical obscure elbow strike to the underside of your opponent's chin. have your right arm snap back after the strike, and cover your groin. (Your opponent's head should been popped up and back, and his body may also spin away from you if done properly.)

How about a walk through of Short and Long 1?

:)

Gou posted:
"Just as your weight settles into your horse stance, execute a right back hammerfist strike to your opponent's groin. (This action should cause your opponent to bend forward at the waist, and possibly release his grasp.)"

These are open to discussion right?

I've always felt that this motion wouldn't release the grip. The first thing you've done is pin their hands to your body, I'm assuming their grip is hand to their own hand/wrist. Then you hit them in the groin. My and I think most guys (I'm using guys because this isn't a good angle for a groin shot on a woman) reaction is to crouch down and tighten up, not release. I think the most likely scenario here is you wind up in the other guys clinch.

Any other opinions?

Damn "what ifs."

Lamont

Even if you don't get out it allows for you to be mobile inside the clinch to continue with your technique.

However, I have never been a big fan of this technique and prefer the old "Spreading Branch" because I feel it allows you to follow the rule of establishing your base and keeping it. On top of that I find it has less danger of developing into a headlock.

Just my 2 cents.

Originally posted by GouRonin

Even if you don't get out it allows for you to be mobile inside the clinch to continue with your technique.

However, I have never been a big fan of this technique and prefer the old "Spreading Branch" because I feel it allows you to follow the rule of establishing your base and keeping it. On top of that I find it has less danger of developing into a headlock.

Just my 2 cents.

But the techniques are slightly different. In Captured twigs the oppenent doesn't step with you he has a narrow base, so the leg sweep doesn't work. I am not saying you couldn't force it, but it just doesn't work the same. In Spreading the branch he steps wide with you so the leg sweep is available.

Michael

My reaction is to try to move my groin out of the way, thus bending over allowing the hands to loosen if not let go all together.

I agree with you though Gou, I like spreading branch much more.
You said the "old" spreading branch, are there two kinds?

cha ching (my 2 cents)

:asian:

Chuck

At the recent OKKA camp we spent sometime with the yellowbelt techniques and found out why they were put in the order they were. It was quite interesting. Does anyone have more little tidbits on the yellow belt techniques.

:( :mad: :soapbox:

Why was Gou's account suspended?

:asian:

He's in Dutch!!

Because ........
He's in Dutch!!



I don't follow.

There was an irate jerk that went by the name of "Dutch" that talked big, but proved to be little.

Will Gou get to come back?

:shrug:

:asian:

Chuck

that means to be in Trouble.

Dutch is Trouble. LOL

:rofl:

I keep forgetting many of you are younger and don't remember these phrases all the time. lol

Originally posted by Rob_Broad

At the recent OKKA camp we spent sometime with the yellowbelt techniques and found out why they were put in the order they were. It was quite interesting. Does anyone have more little tidbits on the yellow belt techniques.

I have been told why by many, what did you here?

What would you like to know?

The order followes the Web of Knowledge....

.
.
.
.:)

Originally posted by Klondike93

Will Gou get to come back?

Yes.

cut from an email I sent recently
There were a variety of reasons for the action. We have recently had to issue a large number of warnings and other disciplinary actions to several forum members. Two members were banned, and several others were suspended until April 1st because of these incidents. Bear in mind that you may not have seen the entire incident due to threads being tossed, posts being deleted, and items being discussed in PMs. As you can imagine, we don't wish to discuss the specifics of any indivdiual's situation. All suspended members will be welcomed back April 1st. The banned members are permanently banned.

We want Gou, we want Gou..... chanting....:asian:

April 1st. And if any of you dress up in cheerleaders outfits...well, thats just too scary to even consider.

:rofl:

For Douggie!!

horray!!!!!!!!!!! Gou will be back!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Boy is he going to have a big head now!!:rofl:

:asian:

Douggie<:snipe2:

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

What would you like to know?

The order followes the Web of Knowledge....

.
.
.
.:)

I understand that. However it was my understanding that the yellow belt "curriculum" wasn't entered into the system until around 1970-71 or so.

Also that some of the techniques if not all were formed from existing techniques in the system.

:asian:

"Also that some of the techniques if not all were formed from existing techniques in the system"

Lets look at this statement...........

Ok, now lets everyone try to develop a "new" Self Defense Technique of some sort without resembling existing techniques ........

Let me know what you come up with.......

:asian:

Yeah that statement was a bit quirky...

What I was trying to imply was that the Yellow Belt techniques weren't the "original" base for the rest of the system. Rather, that the yellow techniques came into the system after it was devloped...sort of like an after thought.:asian:

Actually the Yellow Belt came into being as a part of a juniors program. The consensus was that since children were now allowed to study (at one time no one under 16 was allowed to join), the original curriculum was a bit too much, so Mr. Parker was asked to develop an adjusted level - thus the Yellow Belt.

It was a success...... but soon the Adults started complaining and wanted to do the belt also..... so he added it to the adults curriculum as well.

LOL gotta keep those adults happy.... they don't want to miss anything....... lol.

:asian:

Cool, I have heard that the yellow techniques were put into the system because the jump from white to orange was a bit much for beginners (32 techniques and all). So, for beginners, the yellow techniques were like getting your "feet wet" so to speak.:asian:

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

"Also that some of the techniques if not all were formed from existing techniques in the system"

Lets look at this statement...........

Ok, now lets everyone try to develop a "new" Self Defense Technique of some sort without resembling existing techniques ........

Let me know what you come up with.......

:asian:

Careful GD, your starting to sound like Mr. Planas :D



:asian:

Hee hee......... well, He came up originally under Tom Kelly, who originally came up under Steve LaBounty who I look to for guidence.

Guess we have a good gene pool here!

:asian:

Originally posted by kenpo3631

Cool, I have heard that the yellow techniques were put into the system because the jump from white to orange was a bit much for beginners (32 techniques and all). So, for beginners, the yellow techniques were like getting your "feet wet" so to speak.:asian:

I guess noone will ever know...:(

If not read back.
:asian:

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

Hee hee......... well, He came up originally under Tom Kelly, who originally came up under Steve LaBounty who I look to for guidence.

Guess we have a good gene pool here!

:asian:

GD7,

Do you teach Intellectual Departure as part of your yellow
belt curriculum?

Were the firts four techniques of yellow belt not designed not to teach the 4 quadrants and how to protect them. Delayed Sword your upper left quandrant, Alternating maces lower quadrant, Sword of Destruction Upper right quadrant, and Intellectual Departure lower quadrant.

I have another question though, why was Intellectual Departure removed from most yellow belt curriculums.

Originally posted by Kirk

GD7,
Do you teach Intellectual Departure as part of your yellow
belt curriculum?

No, that technique was deleted years ago (early 80's). Sword and Hammer replaced it.

Just for the record however, I like the technique and use some of its movements all the time in sparring.

:asian:

Originally posted by Goldendragon7



No, that technique was deleted years ago (early 80's). Sword and Hammer replaced it.

Just for the record however, I like the technique and use some of its movements all the time in sparring.

:asian:

Okay, well I had planned, if you said no to my question, then
to say pretty much what Rob just said, only not say it so well.
So if you please, sir .. answer Rob (my) question?

:asian:

Originally posted by Rob_Broad
Were the firts four techniques of yellow belt not designed not to teach the 4 quadrants and how to protect them. Delayed Sword your upper left quandrant, Alternating maces lower quadrant, Sword of Destruction Upper right quadrant, and Intellectual Departure lower quadrant.
I have another question though, why was Intellectual Departure removed from most yellow belt curriculums.

In answer to your first question No. While Delayed Sword does cover the upper left Quad, and Sword of Destruction covers the upper right Quad, Alternating Maces does not cover the lower (you didn't say which) Quad - this technique is actually in the upper left Quad as well. and Intellectual Departure would have covered a lower left Quad if left in - Besides it was Technique # 10 in the Chart so it wouldn't fit your model anyway. So I'm not sure where your information came from.

Intellectual Departure was deleted because of the sophistication of the Technique at this level. If you examine the actions they are a little above the Yellow belt level of necessity, Sword and Hammer is much better for the beginner.

:asian:

Thank you for the correction, I was going from some info I had read a while back and that was why I asked.

Originally posted by Goldendragon7



Intellectual Departure was deleted because of the sophistication of the Technique at this level. If you examine the actions they are a little above the Yellow belt level of necessity, Sword and Hammer is much better for the beginner.



I can believe that, it sure seemed like the most complex of the
techs that we were taught at my school. But if you picture it
like a box, and each corner is a direction you face to perform
a technique, then the bottom left corner is left out.

:asian:

The problem has been many people have put the techniques in a different order over the yrs and have changed them so much they no longer resemble what was origianlly taught as yellow belt material.

GD7,

How about Aggressive Twins, do you teach that one?

When Mr. Parker made the changes in the yellow belt I did what he wanted. That technique is nearly the same as alternating maces anyway.

I do not rearrange or delete like many, the curriculum. I understand the way they are set up and why. Any changes I always called the "Boss" for his desires and reasoning. That's why I teach the curriculum that I do...... the complete Kenpo System. I only add to and enhance never delete.

Why fix something that is not broke.
:asian:

I was told the reason for doing aggressive twins instead of alternating maces, is that alternating maces doesn't really work when done with any power in the block (it tends to move the attacker out of position and cover the targets). Now I learned
Alternating maces from my first kenpo instructor and Aggressive twins from my current one.
When I learned Alternating maces is was from a low two hand push, but I have seen it done from a high two hand push. When done low I think it works, but when done from a high push I tend to agree that it doesn't work right. Aggressive twins feels real easy to do and hit the targets intended. :shrug:



:asian:

details can make a difference!

:asian:

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

details can make a difference!

:asian:


That's why I''m so into kenpo! So many small details of each
and every technique give you something to constantly work
on. It's like a never ending lesson! Just when you get to
the point where you're executing a tech really well, along comes
my instructor who'll say, "you need to be sure to bend that
right knee more, and I'll tell ya why" .. and then go into 20
different reasons why. That's why I feel confident that I'll pursue
kenpo for years. It's that same never ending supply of
information in the computer programming field that got me to
choose it as my career. I may be 80 when I get like a 4th deg.
or something, but hell, I'm just confident that I'll be there that
many years from now! And when I have to leave here to go
to that great "kenpo school in the sky" ... bury me in my ghi!

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

details can make a difference!

:asian:

So is it intended to be a low push?

:asian:

High chest push.
:asian:

High chest push - then you do a right inward block to the left arm, followed by a left vertical punch to ? , then a right backfist to ?

:asian:

It is all in how you do the initial move. Yes, since this is the 2nd technique of the Yellow Belt..... Delayed Sword utilized an Inward Strike... the 2nd technique continues the motion starting with the same action except this time it is a block instead of a Strike but.... THEN continues down turning into a downward forearm block as at this point the left hand shoots a vertical punch.

The purpose here is to continue the counter clockwise arc and learn a new definition to the action......

It's not what you know but who you know that knows! LoL:rofl:
:asian:

So when you do the block followed by the downward forearm block, wouldn't the target for the left vertical punch be covered up by the arms?

I still have plenty of room to hit my target.

:asian:

Just by pushing the arms you do not close your target. When practicing slow in class it happens sometimes because you and your partner know what is going on. On the street the the block folowed by the strike would be vety effective.

Well, you guys have been doing this a lot longer that I have, those are just some of things that happen when I try to do it.

:asian:

Originally posted by Klondike93

Well, you guys have been doing this a lot longer that I have, those are just some of things that happen when I try to do it.

:asian:

Have you ever tried the technique with speed and on someone who did not know what to expect. That might change how you look at the technique. Put a littl sting into the block as well and the arms won't close the gap on you.

Thanks for the tip, I'll give it a try.

:asian:

When I first started in EP Kenpo I was taught Alternating Maces and Sword and Hammer.

However, later on I was taught Intellectual Departure and Aggressive Twins.

I think the influences of Mr. Parker's students had a major role on the system. Mr. Parker borrowed allot of material from the brainstorming of his students. However, I really don't understand what principle Alternating Maces teaches and that if done by the book I found that it doesn't work. There is NO downward forearm check anywhere in the written material. I also think Sword and Hammer is redundant. It shows you target changes from the same position as Obscure Wing (something we can find through experimentation).

Intellectual Departure however, teaches you Category Completion. It works the inside of the opponents right leg as well as uses the inside vertical downward block. (Where else do you use it beside Long Form 1 if you don't teach Intellectual Departure?). Agressive Twins' inward block does the same thing as Alternating Maces however it shows you how to regain the centerline of your opponent (on the low line) by kicking him in the knee to cause his body to rotate towards you and to lower his height for the Front Kick. The high line used to regain the opponent's centerline is taught in Attacking Mace.:soapbox:

Originally posted by kenpo3631

However, I really don't understand what principle Alternating Maces teaches and that if done by the book I found that it doesn't work. There is NO downward forearm check anywhere in the written material. I also think Sword and Hammer is redundant. It shows you target changes from the same position as Obscure Wing (something we can find through experimentation).



not every detail is in the manual that is why you have to attend classes with an instructor. As for Sword and Hammer being redundant I think you have t look at the order the trechniques are taught in. What comes first Sword and Hammer or Obscure Wing in the original teaching order. And is the idea of changing the targets not important enough to be repeated.

Originally posted by Rob_Broad



As for Sword and Hammer being redundant I think you have t look at the order the trechniques are taught in. What comes first Sword and Hammer or Obscure Wing in the original teaching order. And is the idea of changing the targets not important enough to be repeated.

Ah-ha! That's the point! Sword and Hammer was injected into the system WAY after Obscure Wing. Remember the Yellow Belt requirements weren't in the system until around 1970-71 and at that Sword and Hammer wasn't even taught! It was Intellectual Departure!:soapbox: :asian:

The Yellow belt program was created as a introductory course to let people experience Kenpo. There are some good techniques as well as bad techniques in the belt. And every principle you learn in yellow belt can be found elsewhere in the system. there is no problem re-iterating these principle no one learns thing by seeing it once. Many of the principle are shown more than once and allow the student to see the same thing in a different light.

The yellow belt is simplistic so that the beginner can gradually get their feet wet with the system. That is why once you are truly learning the system at orange belt you learn the base technique and not the entire technique with its extension. Kenpo is full of amny stages or phases.

People sometimes over analyze things looking for things that are not there. We have to stop looking at the yellow belt techniqus like Black Belts sometimes and look at the with white belt's eyes and realize they can still be somewhat intimidating.

Originally posted by Rob_Broad

The Yellow belt program was created as a introductory course to let people experience Kenpo. There are some good techniques as well as bad techniques in the belt. And every principle you learn in yellow belt can be found elsewhere in the system. there is no problem re-iterating these principle no one learns thing by seeing it once. Many of the principle are shown more than once and allow the student to see the same thing in a different light.

The yellow belt is simplistic so that the beginner can gradually get their feet wet with the system. That is why once you are truly learning the system at orange belt you learn the base technique and not the entire technique with its extension. Kenpo is full of amny stages or phases.

People sometimes over analyze things looking for things that are not there. We have to stop looking at the yellow belt techniqus like Black Belts sometimes and look at the with white belt's eyes and realize they can still be somewhat intimidating.

The system is that of concepts and principles...most of us agree on that. The way the system was originally laid out w/o the Yellow belt was too much for Americans, so yes, Yellow belt material was created to "get the feet wet". The system originally was laid out so that by the time you reached Black Belt you knew the whole system (32 Technique Version). Sure you learn the principle of closing and reopening the centerline in Attacking Mace, but, where's the low line version of that principle? It's lost if Aggressive Twins is not taught. I am not saying that the principle won't see it again in the system, but don't you think that something as embyonic as that should be taught at a lower level belt rank so you can build you base principles so that you can recognize them later and expand on them when taught advanced material?

Remember EPAK is a system of concepts and principles. What you do with the upper body you must do with the lower, if you go up you must go down, use the right, you must use the left, if not you'll never complete the category.

You state that "People sometimes over analyze things looking for things that are not there. We have to stop looking at the yellow belt techniqus like Black Belts sometimes and look at the with white belt's eyes and realize they can still be somewhat intimidating. "

So I guess those kenpo "seniors" who teach those techniques for the same principles and for category completion have "over analyized" the system? If we as instructors don't look at the Yellow techniques as Black Belts then how do expect to ever thoroughly learn the system? Remember "He who know's how will always be the student, he who knows why will always be the instructor" - Ed Parker.:asian:

:soapbox:

You are incorrect in your understanding of the Yellow Belt and its developement.
:asian:

Remember "He who knows how will always be the student, he who knows why will always be the instructor" - Ed Parker

You failed to mention that you must know the "CORRECT" WHY to be the accurate instructor!

From one who does know!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:asian:

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

Remember "He who knows how will always be the student, he who knows why will always be the instructor" - Ed Parker

You failed to mention that you must know the "CORRECT" WHY to be the accurate instructor!

From one who does know!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:asian:

"He who knows how will always be the student, he who knows why will always be the instructor" - Ed Parker

I placed that quote b/c it is are job to try to understand the system that we have, and if it means to analyze the techniques looking through "black belt eyes", so be it! It was not put there to make me look like I am the all knowing guru of Kenpo Karate (I am far from that I can tell you).

Are you telling me that the what I posted is completely wrong sir? That there are not high and low line techniques, that categories are not completed and that the Yelllow techniques were placed in the system strictly for "getting your feet wet"?

And with this quote "You failed to mention that you must know the "CORRECT" WHY to be the accurate instructor!", are you saying that what I am teaching my students is incorrect?

Please clarify for me what I missed in a nutshell so that I can know the "true" history of the Yellow Belt Techniques....






:asian:

3631,

Those are interesting ideas and in turn gave me some ideas for study. One place where your ideas can be cross checked and debated is the wording. That's the big thing with forums... perception and trying to get to the point of discussion without becoming frustrated. My opinion is- Thanks for the information!

:asian:

Kenpo 3631 stated..........
Are you telling me that the what I posted is completely wrong sir? That there are not high and low line techniques, that categories are not completed and that the Yellow techniques were placed in the system strictly for "getting your feet wet"?

And with this quote "You failed to mention that you must know the "CORRECT" WHY to be the accurate instructor!", are you saying that what I am
teaching my students is incorrect?

Please clarify for me what I missed in a nutshell
so that I can know the "true" history of the
Yellow Belt Techniques...."

My response is ..............

Yes, you are incorrect. If you check back to page two (2) of this string I gave the origin of the Yellow Belt Techniques.

Here it is again.......
--------------
"Actually the Yellow Belt came into being as a part of a juniors program. The consensus was that since children were now allowed to study (at one time no one under 16 was allowed to join), the original curriculum was a bit too much, so Mr. Parker was asked to develop an adjusted level - thus the Yellow Belt.

It was a success...... but soon the Adults started complaining and wanted to do the belt also..... so he added it to the adults curriculum as well.

LOL gotta keep those adults happy.... they don't want to miss anything....... lol".
--------------
This chart (Yellow Belt)as you pointed out before was implemented after the 32 Technique per Belt (Thru Green) was completed.

Mr. Parker himself put the Yellow Belt together ... Do you think someone else snuck it by him? He also did the revisions, Dropping Aggressive Twins, Spreading Branch, The Pincher, & Intellectual Departure..... and decided to insert Alternating Maces, Captured Twigs, The Grasp of Death and Sword and Hammer! Are you telling me he didn't know what he was doing? Sure sounds like it to me.

As far as category completion..... I asked before and got no answer...... who's term is this.... where did you get it from...... what categories and why do they need to be completed?

As to getting your feet wet..... I did NOT say that..... Rob Broad did. Please don't confuse me with anyone else. I believe the above answer that I gave on page 2 defines what I said.

I look forward to your response.

:asian:

O' Mr. Ceeee-eeeeee, What is the low line- high line- center line thing? Tool?

:asian:

Well, we'll have to get his definition on that first. hee hee
One thing at a time..... I'm old you know.... lol


:asian:

Mr. Parker himself put the Yellow Belt together ... Do you think someone else snuck it by him? He also did the revisions, Dropping Aggressive Twins, Spreading Branch, The Pincher, & Intellectual Departure..... and decided to insert Alternating Maces, Captured Twigs, The Grasp of Death and Sword and Hammer! Are you telling me he didn't know what he was doing? Sure sounds like it to me.

Do you know why he dropped those and added the others, did he ever explain why?

:asian:

:asian:

I've heard that some techniques were removed as he found better ways to meet the same goals, or were rearanged due to difficulty.

I believe Mr. Parker was always looking to improve his art, hense the many variations we see based on when a certain instructor was with him.

Please correct me if I'm mistaken. :)

:asian:

He was no dummy......... the system would not be where it is today if he were. He was - as you say - always looking for better ways of doing things ....... even if it meant rearrangement or deletion. (part of our equation formula) !!

He never did anything without thorough examination and thought.
The Yellow Belt adjustments were no different.

:asian:

well big dog i think you are chewing on the wrong bone here.i just finished training for two days on yellow with huk and i honestly believe you are off in left field as far i have learned category completion is when you say have a strike like a middle knuckle in clutching feathers,then one done on a different plane like leaping crane,then the reverse plane on the ending of obscure claws from what i have heard about yellow belt it was a starting program but it was meant for marketing (not kids and then adults.) so if you choose to debate with me iam more than willing to verebally spar with you as we have in the past............
i say this with LOVEhahahahahahahahahaha.
later jay:D :D :D :D

Look wandering puppy,

You can't argue with me (I refuse to do battle with an unarmed opponent ... lol)......

What I have posted is exactly what I discussed with Ed Parker. If you want to believe what Huk tells you today that's fine he can rework the system anyway he wants (but it doesn't make it gospel) ....... but Mr. Parker didn't always agree with Huk (just for your information). Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I choose to follow what Mr. Parker discussed with me and what I have analyzed out for myself. You can recreate the system all day long if you try hard enough but not necessarily accomplish anything.

:asian:

opinions are like a** and they all stink. But anybody who knows anything will choose to believe in those they believe in. And who can explain the whys and wherefores and who truly knows what category completion is. At this time there is only one true leader in the kenpo community who knows the whys and wherefores but as I said in the beginning opinions are like a**
sincerely THE BIG GUY :D :soapbox: :cheers: :cheers: :knight: :apv:

:rofl:

Originally posted by Big Guy

At this time there is only one true leader in the kenpo community who knows the whys and wherefores

And who might that be?

Personal I don't like the Parker or Tracy System they seem to teach technique not principle of why a technique works. That is the reason I Like Okinawan Kempo much better. With the Parker /Tracy system you have say 10 techniques for one certain atttack then 10 more for left hand attack then 10 more for advance technique. In most Okinawan Kempo systems you are taught principle of the attack, how it works, not 30 different ways to defend against the same attack. It also seems in most of the kenpo systems ( Parker/Tracy/American they like to step away from the attack, like a punch. In Okinawan Kempo they like to step into the punch to defend . This makes more since to me then stepping away.

Bob Thomas

but if you were to sit down with a good American Kenpo Instructor you would find that we actually DO teach the principles and anatomy of an attack and much more. Sure at the basic level of learning you learn the model structure but to become a useful technique you definately need the principles.

:asian:

Just to add to what GD said, like he needs any help :shrug: ,
I think the techniques are to just give you an idea of what you could do and how to put the principles to use.

(am I close GD?)

:asian:

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

but if you were to sit down with a good American Kenpo Instructor you would find that we actually DO teach the principles and anatomy of an attack and much more. Sure at the basic level of learning you learn the model structure but to become a useful technique you definately need the principles.

:asian:

DANGIT..........you beat me to the punch yet once again. I guess I am going to have to work harder at my reaction time. LOL.

I agree with what GD7 says. You have to find a qualified and proficient teacher. I know sometimes that is hard to find, there are a lot of people that teach theories, concepts, and principals that do not understand them. So as it goes .......... the water gets muddier further from the source.

Kempojujutsu stated that 'Parker/Tracy/American they like to step away from the attack, like a punch. In Okinawan Kempo they like to step into the punch to defend . This makes more since to me then stepping away.'
Distance is your friend, when we teach a student that is new to the MA we teach them to step back, with stepping back such as in Delayed Hand a begginer lengthens his string (in other words creates more time for him to react within). Whereas stepping in you had better be perfect. Later on the first list of techniques we do teach however to step in. Kinda of introducing them to the idea of, you don't always have to be passive or just responsive, but that you can also be aggressive. All people fight differently, they will adopt what they are comfortable with. Remember when you start teaching (or if you are already), just becuase you like to be close or far away, does not mean that the person you are teaching will be comfortable at that range. I feel that you do need to show them both, and teach correct principles so they can have a more indepth understanding and choose for themselves.
:asian:

O......and I believe that we actually have more techniques that step into a punch than step back.........I'll have to count.......

Michael

i have been called many things but never that,it amuses me thanks. i believe you when you say you discussed things with sgm but did you ever wonder if he told you what was really done earlier on in kenpo and decided to change the story later on to appease some,it's no different than frank saying when sgm died the color left the patch and that is why his is black and white but real reason is the maker of the patch assumed it was black and white because they did not recieve the colors for it by mistake.so now when you hear frank relay this story it sounds great and everything turned out fine,i personally like the black and white patch myself,so could it be the same thing happened with the interpretation on the inclusion of yellow belt. i have heard my explanation from many different soucres on yellow belt and the frank story i heard directly from him.no disrespect big dog i like debating with you for fun if not for anything else you should know that by now as for big guy's response i think huk is responsible for alot of the seniors in the game today but like you said his way is not the only way but it is definitely one of the most thorough and credible paths to choose.
later
jay

avpkenpo, You are right, "distance is your friend". I find it is easier for me to move in on alot of techniques instead of moving back. I like to grapple with my opponent and do some kind of Jujutsu movement. That doesn't mean moving in is the best thing. Yes everyone fights differently.
Just want to know why in kenpo there is different techniques for right & left hand punch . Shouldn't you be able to preform the same technique both right and left hand. Would this help make it less confussing, especial when being attack. Just a question not trying to pick a fight or piss anyone off.

Bob Thomas :asian:

Hi Mr. Thomas,

You posted:
"Just want to know why in kenpo there is different techniques for right & left hand punch . Shouldn't you be able to preform the same technique both right and left hand."

Techniques are merely vehicles to impart the conceptual basis of the system. A single technique is for say a right straight punch can also easily be used for a right hand grab, maybe a right thrust from a knife, probably for a double lapel grab, etc.

The reason (or more correctly, A reason) why different techniques are shown against a left or right punch may be to show different concepts, combinations, or patterns. If you right inward block your opponents right punch, you will probably be going to his "outside" and the remaining technique will finish there. If you right inward block your opponents left punch you will likely wind up working "inside" with a different choice of targets. Thus you have two different ideal techniques.

Learning mirror image techniques is addressed in some of the higher Long forms that do require doing the same technique to either side of the attack. It is left to the individual to go through and learn all the mirror techniques.

Hope that helped,

Lamont

Originally posted by jaybacca72
as for big guy's response i think huk is responsible for alot of the seniors in the game today but like you said his way is not the only way but it is definitely one of the most thorough and credible paths to choose.laterjay

LOL........ well, since you called me the Big Dog, I had to come up with some little fuzzy haired creature to lash back with..... :rofl: glad you got a laugh.

I believe anything is possible however not this particular story. I have been told of the introduction of the yellow Belt from several different sources (at least 4 including SGM) starting back in the late 70's when it was fresh and not retold a jillian times. So I believe it to be true. It definitely was an after thought to the 32 system and an addition to that curriculum. I was there when the change of techniques happened so I know and experienced all the whys and how's because I had to change all my charts which I didn't necessarily want to do. Some Seniors where not teaching in studios actively on a daily basis at that time or had left Mr. Parker or were not as close to the system as some (at that time).

Everyone needs to cling to their instructor and believe he is the best so I don't blame big guy for any of his reasons, (his information is 2nd hand...... I lived it DURING the time). He should follow what his instructor is teaching.

I do not disrespect Huk an iota.... in fact I still look to him for certain things and ask his opinion and take on. However I have learned not to take any one persons word as gospel particularly for one that I personally discussed certain specific Kenpo issues with the SGM myself. I personally disagree strongly with "some" of his beliefs. That's ok. I'm sure he disagrees with me on some issues.

Keep in mind, Steve LaBounty is my current instructor reverting back to him after the passing of Ed Parker, and was my instructor prior to having the opportunity of studying under Mr. Parker. Steve LaBounty, promoted Tom Kelly to Black Belt originally and Tom Kelly was Planas instructor which is where many of his root knowledge stems from. I remember my roots and my lineage of which Huk is my Uncle. So to dis him is stupid..... and wrong, but everything he says I don't necessarily agree with, that needs to be understood, I have NEVER been a yes man like some and I don't intend to start now. FYI - I even disagreed with Mr. Parker from time to time on some issues....... some I won him over, some I conceded and he showed me where my thinking was off. Simple as that. :)

:asian:

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

Just want to know why in kenpo there is different techniques for right & left hand punch . Shouldn't you be able to preform the same technique both right and left hand. Would this help make it less confussing, especial when being attack. Just a question not trying to pick a fight or piss anyone off.




Don't worry, you won't piss anyone off by asking a question. LOL

Yes and No. Later down the road we will do the same technique left and right handed. We find it less confusing to lower belts. Especially those that are just learning to move like a MA. If you notice that our forms help to introduce the left side or right side of a lot of our techniques(starting with short 1). This helps them to adopt on their own doing a technique on the left side. I personally have noticed that when I have practiced a form at length then I go to spontinaity that I will do the opposite side from what I learned. Also when an individual gets to be more proficient with movement we then ask them to practice both the left and right side of the techniques (just so they can understand the technique more fully).
On a side note how many of you guys practice your techniques in reverse order? Just something to chew on.

Michael

Originally posted by AvPKenpo

On a side note how many of you guys practice your techniques in reverse order? Just something to chew on.


Hmm, never thought of that. I keep the techs I've learned on
index cards, and for some reason, I've kept them in order. No
idea why. I'm gonna start shuffling them from now on.

Hmm, never thought of that. I keep the techs I've learned on index cards, and for some reason, I've kept them in order. No idea why. I'm gonna start shuffling them from now on

It is a good idea to rearrange your material,helps you with spontinaiety(SP) but not quite what I was meaning. LOL What I meant was to do a technique forwards then backwards. And learn how it can be adapted to the same attack. For instance Delayed hand starts by stepping back into a rt. nuetral bow, rt. inward block front snap kick with the rt. leg, marriage of gravity with an outward handsword strike to the neck.
But instead lets try it backwards, the outward handsword strike becomes a block/chop stepping into a rt. nuetral bow with a right front snap kick ending with an inward block to check the attackers arm. Remember leave all your checks in the proper places.

Michael

Originally posted by AvPKenpo



It is a good idea to rearrange your material,helps you with spontinaiety(SP) but not quite what I was meaning. LOL What I meant was to do a technique forwards then backwards. And learn how it can be adapted to the same attack. For instance Delayed hand starts by stepping back into a rt. nuetral bow, rt. inward block front snap kick with the rt. leg, marriage of gravity with an outward handsword strike to the neck.
But instead lets try it backwards, the outward handsword strike becomes a block/chop stepping into a rt. nuetral bow with a right front snap kick ending with an inward block to check the attackers arm. Remember leave all your checks in the proper places.

Hmmm, another good idea. Doesn't sound easy though :)

No its not easy..........but it does open you up to new ideas.

Michael

The American Kenpo Equation Formula is:

To any given base move whether it is a single move or a series of movements, you can:
(1) PREFIX it, add a move or moves before it,
(2) SUFFIX it, add a move or moves after it,
(3) INSERT, add a simultaneous move with the already established sequence,
(4) REARRANGE, change the sequence of the moves,
(5)ALTER the weapon, the target, or both,
(6) ADJUST the range, the angle of execution, or both the angle of execution and the range,
(7) REGULATE the speed, the force, both speed and force, intent and speed,
(8) DELETE, exclude a move or moves from the sequence.

This is one of the most improtant Kenpo Tools.

:asian:

Originally posted by AvPKenpo




Don't worry, you won't piss anyone off by asking a question. LOL

Yes and No. Later down the road we will do the same technique left and right handed. We find it less confusing to lower belts. Especially those that are just learning to move like a MA.
Michael

Hmmm, question then. Do the advanced belts at your school do Delayed Sword on the left side for a requirement?

I was under suspect that the Ed Parker System of Kenpo was a right handed system and that's why the techniques are designed the way they are. (If you notice, most start with your right side forward).

:asian:

do everything on the left as well as the right side from day one, and have been doing it that way since 1978! The students excell and have no problems what so ever....... (4-10 year olds excluded).

To quote the Purple Belt saying #6 ...

While there is a difference between the terms "opposite" and "reverse", both provide answers to THOROUGHLY UNDERSTANDING the effects of motion.

:asian:

Originally posted by kenpo3631



Hmmm, question then. Do the advanced belts at your school do Delayed Sword on the left side for a requirement?

I was under suspect that the Ed Parker System of Kenpo was a right handed system and that's why the techniques are designed the way they are. (If you notice, most start with your right side forward).

:asian:

Only because this is a Right dominant World(does it seem that it is right handed system) , there have been case studies, I don't have the number in front of me of ratio of right handed attackers to left handed attackers, I believe it is 9:1. Plus if you look at your classes how many left handed people are there.
No it is not a requirement for advanced belts. It is something that is asked of us to do on our own time, and there are times were we will do the techniques on the left side, in group classes. It is something not to be neglected. It should be done, and done often. It gives you so many more answers to any type of attack.

Michael

P.S. Remember this is only one answer of many.

Originally posted by Goldendragon7


To quote the Purple Belt saying #6 ...

While there is a difference between the terms "opposite" and "reverse", both provide answers to THOROUGHLY UNDERSTANDING the effects of motion.

:asian:

Very well put. Are those sayings in any of Parkers books? I would like to read the rest of them. I only own Infinite Insights 4,5, and the Encyclopedia.

Michael

YELLOW BELT

Distance is your best friend.
Whatever the attitude, so is the response.
When blocking on the inside of an opponent's arm, do so below the elbow, never above it.
When blocking on the outside of an opponent's arm, do so at or above the elbow, never below it.
The ankle is the wrist of the foot.
A knife edge kick is a chop with the foot.
Deflection; then infliction of pain.

ORANGE BELT

Let time be your measurement to skill and experience.
To hear is to doubt, to see is to be deceived, but to feel is to believe.
In every offense there is a defense and in every defense is an offense.
Forms and sets are expressions of basic skills.
One becomes humble when he comes to the realization that what he knows is very little.
Condition and guts take over where knowledge and skill end.
When circular moves end, linear begin; when linear moves end, circular moves reoccur again.
Many answers lie in a single move, but many moves do not necessarily give a single answer.
There are no pure styles of karate. Purity comes only when pure knuckles meet pure flesh no matter who delivers or receives.
He who hesitates, meditates in a horizontal position.

PURPLE BELT

To beat action, meet it.
Fair play is when your opponent's definition of fair play is equally matched with yours.
It is not the size of a man, but the size of fear that has been the cause of many a defeat.
Slow to learn, slow to forget.
Anger can often constipate your retaliatory efforts.
While there is a difference between the terms "opposite" and "reverse", both provide answers to thoroughly understanding the effects of motion.
Always strike from where the natural weapons are found during the time of an attack.
Wasted inches are wasted time.
Knowledge is bound when one is compelled to tradition. Knowledge is endless when tradition is bound.

BLUE BELT

Reaction can beat action if the target to be reached last is the first object to move out of the way.
To aid your action, feed it with your opponent's reaction.
A check, in most cases, is an application of, whereas a cover is used in anticipation of.
Shuffles and crossovers are movements of adjustments.
Flow first, power later.
Guts are the anesthesia that deaden the pain of fear.
The ultimate aim of Kenpo is to elongate circles and round off corners.
Low kicks are excellent weapons to neutralize your opponent's aggression. Knock out his support, and you weaken his aggressive abilities and desires.
An ounce of logic can be worth more than a ton of tradition that has become obsolete through the weathering of time.
Refinement too much time and often too little progress.
Never send an opponent's weapon into orbit to only have it re orbit back to you.
Devote time with a particular move before deciding whether it does or does not work for you.

GREEN BELT

Action with effect keeps an opponent in check.
Accuracy must accompany speed, for it takes both to secure victory.
Although belt colors show, it is no proof that you know.
To desire something does not mean to accomplish it. To perspire for it makes accomplishment a reality.
The man who knows "how" will always be a student, but the man who knows "why" will continue to be the instructor.
When a man's mind is occupied with his own injury, he is not apt to think of retaliation.
Principles of motion take precedent over the sequence of motion.
Whether it is a big ship or a little ship, the same size hole placed correctly in the hull can sink it.
Sophistication is no more than simplicity compounded.
Will power is the hammer that drives action.

THIRD BROWN

There are only a set number of basic moves all else are variations of the same.
What is truth for one may not be truth for another. The real truth for both lies in the moment of actual combat.
When you exaggerate a move you can build an offense into a defense. When you condense a move the reverse holds true.
You must earn what you learn.
Environment involves what is around you, on you, and in you at the time of confrontation.
While practice locks in our knowledge of basics, instinct is what makes it free.
Mastery of the Art comes when the tiger is seen, but the dragon prevails.
A leg that kicks can be hurt just as easily as it can hurt.
The Kenpo system is based on the outer limits of simplicity and the starting point of complexity.
Principles are the roots of a technique. Unless you have a thorough understanding of them your boundaries of limitations will always be restricted.

SECOND DEGREE BROWN BELT SAYINGS

Strikes are intermissions of relaxation.
The ears are the eyes of darkness.
Transitions are the conjunctions that bridge techniques.
Not until the brain shifts into gear with the body will the
intangible become tangible.
While the term approximately does not mean exactly, it can
lead to exact findings applicable to you.
Explosion from within is really implosion to without.
Separating your direction can also mean separating your power.
Never discard knowledge that is not applicable to you, but store it.

SAYINGS FOR FIRST BROWN

Deprivation breeds appreciation.
Desperation often hinders inspiration.
Don't look for answers beyond your realm of understanding for
more often than not, many answers are before you that have
been overlooked.
Logic, as it applies to the times, is the key.
Motion is the language of the body; properly executed, it can
be used to save your life.
Glory disrupts, power corrupts.
There are three types of motion: MOTION, EMOTION and
COMMOTION. All three can be effective, depending upon how
they are used.
Style is what an individual eventually molds for himself.
Categorize your moves as either: useful, unuseful, or useless.
First control the use of the weapon, then take control of the
weapon.

:asian:

Those were great GD7!!!! I copied them, for future reference
or posting on a web site :D

Originally posted by AvPKenpo



Only because this is a Right dominant World(does it seem that it is right handed system) , there have been case studies, I don't have the number in front of me of ratio of right handed attackers to left handed attackers, I believe it is 9:1. Plus if you look at your classes how many left handed people are there.
No it is not a requirement for advanced belts. It is something that is asked of us to do on our own time, and there are times were we will do the techniques on the left side, in group classes. It is something not to be neglected. It should be done, and done often. It gives you so many more answers to any type of attack.

Michael

P.S. Remember this is only one answer of many.

I am not saying not to practice the left side of the techniques, you can do what you want, I thought the forms taught you the opposites and reverse of Kenpo?

Besides if you think of it, for every attack you can think of there is a technique that combats it. Aren't most of them dirivatives of other techniques?:asian:

Wow, thanks I knew a lot of them, but not nearly all of them. You are definately a fountain of information.

Michael

Originally posted by kenpo3631



I am not saying not to practice the left side of the techniques, you can do what you want, I thought the forms taught you the opposites and reverse of Kenpo?

Besides if you think of it, for every attack you can think of there is a technique that combats it. Aren't most of them dirivatives of other techniques?:asian:

I can see someone ate their wheaties today. Or maybe it was all that Training with HUk that stimulated the grey matter. That was a great answer.

Originally posted by kenpo3631



I am not saying not to practice the left side of the techniques, you can do what you want, I thought the forms taught you the opposites and reverse of Kenpo?

Besides if you think of it, for every attack you can think of there is a technique that combats it. Aren't most of them dirivatives of other techniques?:asian:

Neither am I. You should practice both the left and right side of techniques. And yes forms teach us many, many things. I am sure they teach me concepts that I will never know.
Yes they are diivatives from other techniques, Look at how many have the same motion but different targets, or weapons, or stances, look for the similarities in the differences and the differnces in the similarities.

Michael

Consider the coordination gain, additional training time (which is an extremely important part of ingraining material to become extemporaneous), ambidextrous freedom that will result in training the opposites, and of course the physical gain from the training.... a win win as I see it. It can't hurt.

:asian:

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

ambidextrous freedom that will result in training the opposites, and of course the physical gain from the training.... a win win as I see it. It can't hurt.

:asian:

Ohhhhh.........it could hurt especially if I am on the recieving end of it.....:D :eek: :D

Michael

Originally posted by Rob_Broad



I can see someone ate their wheaties today. Or maybe it was all that Training with HUk that stimulated the grey matter. That was a great answer.

Wheaties my a**! More like the magic mushroom from Alice in WOnderland. Lots of info to be had from Mr. Planas, good stuff
I might add.

So you coming to the next camp?

PS- Didn't need the seminar to come up with that, I knew it already:yinyang::asian:

I love attending all the events but with my wife's and my hectic schedules it is sometimes hard. Then there is also the cost factor, the conversion from Canadian to American can become quite costly. But I do hope to attend the next camp.