Would anyone care if I wrote up some of the techniques and posted them here for people to discuss?:confused:

I'd be interested in reading those posts.

Speaking of which, am I correct in thinking that American Kenpo has a set of techniques (waza?) called 'Sword & Hammer'? The reason I ask is Okinawa-te has a kata (at *leaast* 90 moves) that is called 'Sword & Hammer'. In fact, it is one of the primary katas we have to know for black belt. I wonder if any of the kenpo moves are in our kata, of if they simply just share the same name.

Cthulhu

There is a single technique named "Sword & Hammer" used as a defence against a flank right side shoulder grab. I will dig up the manual I have for a exact description of one method that is used to execute this technique.

In short however, it is a hand check with the left hand, as you step out with the right foot to execute an outward chop to the throat. Then you drop the right hand to a hammerfist to the groin. There are variations on the technique but in all it's about 2 strikes. Throat and groin. Hence, "Sword & Hammer".

I'm at work now but later I will find and post a decription that you can read and follow. It's not the 90 moves of your kata though.:D

Thanks for the clarification, Gou. Nope, definitely not related to Okinawa-te's Sword & Hammer.

Okinawa-te's Sword & Hammer comes from what supposedly happened when Japan subjugated the Okinawans 400 years ago. According to some accounts, not only did the Japanese outlaw weapons, but they outlawed anything that could be used as a weapon, including ordinary knives and tools like hammers. Supposedly, villages had a sort of communal knife and hammer that were chained together and guarded by a soldier, who oversaw the use of these implements. According to the story, Okinawans would steal these tools and use them for self-defense. The first move of the kata is the clasping together of the open left hand (sword) and the right fist (hammer).

Cthulhu

Heh...while hoping to find vid clips of the Okinawa-te Sword & Hammer kata, I ran into a clip of the Kenpo S&H technique.

Oddly enough, it was just as you described :D

Joke! No kill me!

Cthulhu

It's a simple technique that believe it or not can get very deep depending on how you analyze it, interpret it, or use it.

Many techniques from 'classical' martial arts are like that, aren't they :)

Fortunately, only those of us who stick with the art get to learn the 'goodies'.

Don't have the link to those S&H vid clips, but the guy did show a few variations, pretty much just involving the strike targets.

Cthulhu

Can you tell me how to do Twirling Wings:asian:

I remember reading somewhere that in the movie "The Perfect Weapon" which is the video bible for kenpoists.
:boing1:
Jeff Speakman said that he really didn't go any higher than purple belt really for most base techniques. I'm not saying he did or didn't but I was thinking, does this mean that really the lower belts have the meat and potatoes of the system? (at least for Jeff Speakman)

Maybe he means that the basic strikes and defenses necessary for basic self-defense are contained in the purple belt syllabus. Everything after that may be considered advanced application/theory on top of more advanced forms and whatnot.

Bear in mind, I'm not a kenpo practitioner. Just tossin' in my two yen.

Cthulhu

Lets rip apart 5 Swords or Triggered Salute, or Dance of Death.

Well they're all right hand punch/shove techs.
5 swords is a roundhouse at shoulder/head level
Triggered Salute is a right direct shove, shoulder level
Dance of Death is a bit of a combo in a right step through straight punch.

The first two work inside the arm and the last one works outside the arm.

The Dance of Death also leads directly to the taketown.

Which one do you want to start with?

Suggestion: Do each "pull apart" as a seperate thread.

I'd suggest Triggered Salute. :)

Hey,
Triggered sounds good to me. Post this one armed tech up and lets rip it apart.
Mace :asian:

I'am Sorry Sir but Dance of Death is for a right cross right leg back. But you have to be able to do it with that leg forward also! The way you should look at it Five Swords and Triggered Salute are on the inside and Dance of Death is on the outside which I like much better. Take care.:asian: :soapbox:

Now I know that dance of death is written with the right leg back and I'm also able to do it with the leg forward, but my question is would you do this tech with the leg forward and is it necessary to learn it that way. You will either be forced into a twist stance to get around the leg or try and drive through the leg where you could crunch your own groin with their foot on the takedown. Now wouldn't it be better for the student to explore grafting rather than force one tech that isn't suited for the attack?
Mace

True, Dance of Death, right cross, right leg back.

Myself I'd pass on the Dance Of Death if the leg was forward as you could use it to slip into the Zone of sanctuary behind them and work to your little heart's content. But I digress...

Taken from internet website:

"Dance of Death
(Front- Right Straight Punch; their left leg forward)

1. An attacker from 12 o'clock comes at you with a right punch while in a left foot forward fighting stance.

2. Step your left foot forward towards 10:30 into a left neutral bow facing 12 o'clock as you simultaneously execute a left inward block to your attacker's punch.

3. Immediately pivot into a left forward bow facing 12 o'clock as you maintain a left bracing angle check and execute a right reverse hand sword to your attacker's groin.

4. Switch your hands so your right is now high against your attacker's right arm and your left is low. Execute a right step-through knee kick to your attacker's groin. (This gets their weight shifted off their right leg so you can grab.)

5. Land in a right neutral bow facing 12 o'clock as you simultaneously execute a right inward elbow as you grab the back of your attacker's right knee and pull towards you. Note: This move should knock them on their back. The pull and strike must counteract each other to be effective.

6. Execute a right backfist to your attacker's left knee. Note: This is done in case of an unintentional move; their left leg may come up when they are dropped to the ground.

7. Drop into a right wide kneel stance and take advantage of marriage of gravity and execute a right inward handsword onto your attacker's groin.

8. Cross out towards 7:30. "

Dance of Death as the book say is not Dance of Death it is the take Down. If you do it the way the BOOK says you may get a foot some place you do not want! :D

Ouch, talk about an invite to join the boys choir.

Okay, I know that book version lands a foot in the cookies with the leg forward, but what I'm curious about is how far will you go to pull the tech off when you have other options available that might be easier to do and equally as effective. Circling the horizon in reverse fits here if the legs forward and you initially go to the groin, which leads into or is initially flashing wings. So is it necessary to learn the "book" modifications to pull this tech off in the "what if" phase if there are so many other, more readily accessable, options?

I have always loved Dance of Death, but I prefer to stomp to the groin instead of the handsword. You are also in position at this point to flip the attacker over to go into the extension.

Yes you can go in to many things all it does is show you all the things you can do and what if's. WE would all use different things. But you have to learn it all to play with a full deck. In Dance just use your right knee to pop his right leg up and out of the way to stop his foot from getting between your legs

Yoiks. Since I ain't a kenpo feller, I got lost with this one fairly early. Anybody know of any sites online with vid clips or pics of it to help me picture it better?

Cthulhu

Hey Big guy,
I definitely like the knee strike to the knee or thigh to cancel the groin shot (to self), but have you ever tried instead jamming the opponent with a forearm into the armpit to lift your opponent and lighten the legs and then a forearm strike downward to the sternum/ solar plexis as you sweep the leg? It devastating and cancels the self groin shot worry.
Just a thought
Mace

The way I do the technique is I step in left neutral, with a left inward block rotating into a modified neutral delivering a backfist or hammerfist to the mid-section, preferably the groin. Left hand stays in check then contours down the back as I do a right knee to the inside of their right thigh causing it to move outside of my center line and w/ the knee strike it brings their right leg up to my hand so I don't have to bend as much. As I do this I deliver a right forearm strike to their solarplexes or pectorial area. As they fall to the ground on their back my left hand maintains control of their right leg by hanging on their ankle and wrapping their toes around my left hip, pinning it to my hip w/ my left hand and putting pressure on their right knee w/ my right leg in a cross stance. At this point I can end the technique by breaking their knee. But if I choose I can continue w/ the standard technique of the backfist to the calf and finger whip to the groin. As most people consider the extension an extension it is actually the original technique. Up to this point all we have done is a take down w/o getting an unintentional kick to our groin. Thank you for Listening to my Mouth.:soapbox: :o

Cool, so its basically book version with areas of expansion. I like the foot/knee work on the opponent!
Mace

Hey Gou,
Are you going to post up the details for Triggered Salute?
Just curious?
Mace

I'll put it up in a seperate thread.

I have always loved Dance of Death, but I prefer to stomp to the groin instead of the handsword. You are also in position at this point to flip the attacker over to go into the extension.How you gonna stomp the groin when you have your opponent's butt up on your knee?
Sean

Dance of Death as the book say is not Dance of Death it is the take Down. If you do it the way the BOOK says you may get a foot some place you do not want! :DIf you do it the way the book says there is no foot to worry about. :asian:
Sean

Didn't we do dance of Death on another thread? I know we did becuase I said something about the whole leg and foot in the cookies thing..... but....
:asian:

Didn't we do dance of Death on another thread? I know we did becuase I said something about the whole leg and foot in the cookies thing..... but....
:asian:I thought I would rehash an old thread, and, of course, comment. :uhyeah:
Sean

Alright I snagged this from Paul Woods site, thank you Paul Woods.

this will give us the same version of the technique to at least start the inquisition.... here it is according to Mr. Woods site.

DANCE OF DEATH (front straight right punch)
this is the first problem, no clarification of opponents position before or after the punch.

1. Standing naturally, step forward and to your left to 11 o'clock (into a left neutral bow) with your left foot (to get out of the line of attack). Simultaneously strike to the outside of opponent's right punch with your left inward block as your right arm rests and hangs naturally to the right of your body.
2. With your left hand still guarding (with a left bracing angle), strike to the opponent's groin with a right upward vertical reverse hand sword while pivoting into a left forward bow.
3. Immediately step through and to your left to 10 o'clock into a right neutral bow with your right foot (to buckle opponent's right knee) as your right elbow strikes horizontally and into opponent's right ribcage while your left hands grabs back of opponent's right knee and pulls toward you so that your left hand grab concludes the grab (after sliding along the leg) at your opponent's right ankle.

let the whoopla begin.... Keep it clean and fun lol....

1. Standing naturally, step forward and to your left to 11 o'clock (into a left neutral bow) with your left foot (to get out of the line of attack). Simultaneously strike to the outside of opponent's right punch with your left inward block as your right arm rests and hangs naturally to the right of your body.
2. With your left hand still guarding (with a left bracing angle), strike to the opponent's groin with a right upward vertical reverse hand sword while pivoting into a left forward bow.
3. Immediately step through and to your left to 10 o'clock into a right neutral bow with your right foot (to buckle opponent's right knee) as your right elbow strikes horizontally and into opponent's right ribcage while your left hands grabs back of opponent's right knee and pulls toward you so that your left hand grab concludes the grab (after sliding along the leg) at your opponent's right ankle.

let the whoopla begin.... Keep it clean and fun lol....
That's a big transition from 11:00 left neutral bow to 10:00 right neutral bow, but it makes sense to me. It would continue pushing the opponent back. I've seen some students do a single switch step from left to right bow around the leg rather than moving forward with the step through. Would there be a reason why a single switch may be more preferable than a step through?

- Ceicei

That's a big transition from 11:00 left neutral bow to 10:00 right neutral bow, but it makes sense to me. It would continue pushing the opponent back. I've seen some students do a single switch step from left to right bow around the leg rather than moving forward with the step through. Would there be a reason why a single switch may be more preferable than a step through?

- CeiceiThe strike to the groin is to be completed before the step through is completed. The leg is not supposed to be there to work around.
Sean

So, TOD you are executing the tek with the opponents right leg back? Specifically right! We have to clarify this for everyone to understand why you keep insisting the leg is not there.

[qoute]ceici
That's a big transition from 11:00 left neutral bow to 10:00 right neutral bow, but it makes sense to me. It would continue pushing the opponent back. I've seen some students do a single switch step from left to right bow around the leg rather than moving forward with the step through. Would there be a reason why a single switch may be more preferable than a step through?
[/quote]

This is where the exact position and attack of the opponent comes into play. Conceptual vs finite. Your method will work and does work with the opponent executing a step-through punch. The original version (no step-through) uses the angel from 11 to 10 to align ourselves properly with the opponent for the follow up strikes after the take down.
:asian:

So, TOD you are executing the tek with the opponents right leg back? Specifically right! We have to clarify this for everyone to understand why you keep insisting the leg is not there.

[qoute]ceici
That's a big transition from 11:00 left neutral bow to 10:00 right neutral bow, but it makes sense to me. It would continue pushing the opponent back. I've seen some students do a single switch step from left to right bow around the leg rather than moving forward with the step through. Would there be a reason why a single switch may be more preferable than a step through?


This is where the exact position and attack of the opponent comes into play. Conceptual vs finite. Your method will work and does work with the opponent executing a step-through punch. The original version (no step-through) uses the angel from 11 to 10 to align ourselves properly with the opponent for the follow up strikes after the take down.
:asian:[/QUOTE]That is correct. It can be a step through punch but you have to get in there, strike the groin to cause the leg to negate the step through. Otherwise you are in a predicament where this might not be the best tech to execute.
Sean

As a former (I don't know, it's hard-wired) wrestler, I have real problems with this technique. Why go for the far base leg after parrying/blocking the right-hand strike?

I did this textbook for my test, but honestly, the lead leg is the logical target. Block, plant shoulder in the solar plexus, and sweep the heel of the LEFT lead leg instead. Adapt or graft techniques like bowing to buddha or get an achilles lock instead of those minor strikes to the inner thigh. This was one particular technique that I think EP got wrong due to his lack of experience with other ground systems. One of the few.

This was one particular technique that I think EP got wrong due to his lack of experience with other ground systems. One of the few.
You have no idea what you're talking about.


DarK LorD

You have no idea what you're talking about.


DarK LorD

Oh, feel free to chime in and say absolutely nothing anytime you want there Clyde.
:CTF:

As a former (I don't know, it's hard-wired) wrestler, I have real problems with this technique. Why go for the far base leg after parrying/blocking the right-hand strike?

I did this textbook for my test, but honestly, the lead leg is the logical target. Block, plant shoulder in the solar plexus, and sweep the heel of the LEFT lead leg instead. Adapt or graft techniques like bowing to buddha or get an achilles lock instead of those minor strikes to the inner thigh. This was one particular technique that I think EP got wrong due to his lack of experience with other ground systems. One of the few.If you get him in mid step through, he is in a horse stance; so, Maybe your not getting the idea yourself. :asian:
Sean

As a former (I don't know, it's hard-wired) wrestler, I have real problems with this technique. Why go for the far base leg after parrying/blocking the right-hand strike?

I did this textbook for my test, but honestly, the lead leg is the logical target. Block, plant shoulder in the solar plexus, and sweep the heel of the LEFT lead leg instead. Adapt or graft techniques like bowing to buddha or get an achilles lock instead of those minor strikes to the inner thigh. This was one particular technique that I think EP got wrong due to his lack of experience with other ground systems. One of the few.And even if he doesn't step through and you naturaly moved up the circle, he would be in a horse stance. :asian:
Sean

That is correct. It can be a step through punch but you have to get in there, strike the groin to cause the leg to negate the step through. Otherwise you are in a predicament where this might not be the best tech to execute.
Sean

You are anticipating the step through at this point? Doing that is dangerous. Wouldn't it be better to use a new set of rules for the altered position of the opponent on the attack. If you blaze through this with the intention of beating his step through with your step through the average practitioner will get caught with the leg to the groin. This ( I think?) is what some people have trouble with. Remember different skill levels and different understanding of the Systemic rules, or anatomical rules for that matter. See the thread "Reading Parker's II" for more on anticipatory moves and such.... Just my two cents...
:asian:

Try it against a left jab, right cross combination. Right hand responds as in Circling Fans (or parries or traps or blocks), then your left hand picks up the right.

Think about the opponent in a boxer's stance, NOT a right leg BACK, left Neutral Bow. The technique works against what I call, a more conventional street attack. It is only Kenpo guys dummying, who throw a punch and end up turned sideways (to protect the groin) ... Try to bring some life into it, and it can be effective and fun. If the opponent's legs are squared up, you get a nice (not minor) knee strike as you check his leg ... or on a big opponent, the knee can lift their leg and assist getting it up to the left hand, as verses the more Ideal Phase high low left hand pull, right elbow strike (push).

-Michael

You are anticipating the step through at this point? Doing that is dangerous. Wouldn't it be better to use a new set of rules for the altered position of the opponent on the attack. If you blaze through this with the intention of beating his step through with your step through the average practitioner will get caught with the leg to the groin. This ( I think?) is what some people have trouble with. Remember different skill levels and different understanding of the Systemic rules, or anatomical rules for that matter. See the thread "Reading Parker's II" for more on anticipatory moves and such.... Just my two cents...
:asian:I didn't say beat his step through with mine, I said beat it with the reverse sword hand to the groin. :asian:
sean

We are obviously not on the same page here, nor do I feel that we will ever be..... enjoy your Tech's however it is that you do them...
:idunno:

You have no idea what you're talking about.


DarK LorD
Stated with your usual amount of condecension and lack of explanation. If one of EPKs principles is economy of motion, then why go for the far leg when the heel grab and takedown are much closer for the near leg? You can just as easily check the arm across the body as risk a returning elbow strike and/or guillotine choke the conventional way. Please enlighten me.

And even if he doesn't step through and you naturaly moved up the circle, he would be in a horse stance. :asian:
Sean

Maybe I learned the technique differently than you--I wasn't aware that there's a step-through in the textbook attack. I learned it as a reverse punch, right leg back. If it's a true reverse punch, then he'll have to be in an engaged forward bow position. With the block, I can continue to check his right hand across the body, then plant my left in his hip (he's way off balance now) and I can do a single-leg on the lead.

It's just my opinion. I'll retract the "I think EPK was wrong" statement, just because it sounds like sacrilege and hubris. I would just do something different, since the technique never mixed well with my personal style. Which I thought kenpo was all about.

:asian:

Stated with your usual amount of condecension and lack of explanation. If one of EPKs principles is economy of motion, then why go for the far leg when the heel grab and takedown are much closer for the near leg? You can just as easily check the arm across the body as risk a returning elbow strike and/or guillotine choke the conventional way. Please enlighten me.
Only your perceptions of the art, maybe you haven't contrasted your ideas with how others do this particular technique and why.

DarK LorD