the wonders of TKD

[TLH3rdDan]

interesting story i felt like sharing with the people on this board.. just the other day in talking with one of my former students who is also a close friend and whom i had trained to the point of brown belt... informed me he was taking tae kwon do at a school near his appartment apon futher questioning i found the guy was a 5th dan and a member of the ITF and had a nice size school and several black belts under him as students... then to my astonishment he informed me that he had signed up for classes told the instructor nothing of his previous training which most of it he had forgot due to the fact he had not been in a class in almost 4 years, well he went to his new class as a white belt and by the end of the night after sparring everyone in the school and beating all of them in point style matches he walked out with a red belt. any one else find this entertaining and revealing about the wonderful world of the mcdojo

[arnisador]

No comment!

[TLH3rdDan]

:-) lol typical response ive gotten from some of my friends in town here

[fist of fury]

Have they posted thier sign outside that reads"Over 3 million backbelts awarded this year."

[TLH3rdDan]

no actually i think David Deaton has the rights to that sign here in nashville

[Klondike93]

:rolleyes:

Not surprised. ITF fighters aren't very good at point fighting. Some are ok at continious fighting, but not many. I came up through the ITF ranks before moving to Kenpo and I would love to spar with some of my old classmates now. :rofl:


:asian:

Chuck

[white dragon]

I would have thouhgt ITF would have been great at point sparring as I thought was all they did? Seem sto be what they do over here.

But also you must question a club that will just award someone a belt after one training session!

[Klondike93]

The ITF does a "semi-continous" point fighting.

2 minute round with no stoppage to call points, the points are kept by 4 judges and a center ref. The one with the most points gets to move on.

Interesting though that here in the US, you can't really hit that hard, but if you fight elseware, they knock the snot out of you!

:boxing:


:asian:


Chuck

[white dragon]

Are you sure you're not confussing ITF with WTF? The way things are set out over here is WTF is continuous sparring, you're award points but you don't stop. It's also full contact. ITF is point sparring and only semi-contact.

[brianbarton]

Reading through this thread a lots of others, their seems to be a lot of chat saying how certain classes just award gradings/belts whenever they like, and instructers are just after keeping students and getting as much money from them as possible.

I have only ever attended one class and just wanted to stick up for ITF Taekwon-Do.

I have been training in ITF Taekwon-Do for a year and am just about to go for my 7th Kup grading. My instructor is really professional and never pushes us to buy any equipment or promotional items. And if we do want to buy anything the prices are actually really cheap.

It is a shame that we only hear the bad stuff. Is anyone else happy with their instructer and organisation.

ALSO: Could someone please explain exactly what a McDojo is?

[white dragon]

As far as the Mcdojo thing goes they only really seem to in America, sorry not meaning to offend anyone it's just I haven't really run into anyone that has been trained by a so called blackbelt that's only done it for 4 weeks or so forth. Go and have a look in the main martial art thread of the forum to see some of the mcdojo horror stories!

I would just like to say that I'm more than happy with my club. Well I'm the club secretary, that's true so I guess I'd have to be! :) We have an amazing 4th Dan instructor, with a list of qualifications to his name. He gives proper attention to eveyone, no matter what rank and will always explain the purpose of techniques, different variations and how they can be applied, giving people a real sense of understanding which I have seen lacking from other teachers.

As for ordering stuff, we sell it to the students at whole sale price, no profit is made, and we even pay the P&P, can't say fairer than that can you? Our only requirement is that if someone wants to grade they have to pay £9 (the club pays another £9 towards the grading) and pay £6.50 (again the club pays half) for their personal insurance with the AMA. I know some clubs offer gradings for free, but then we only charge £1 for a two hour session, which you REALLY can't beat :)

Sorry to go on, I just wanted to show that tkd does indeed have some good schools ;)

All the best
Liam Cullen
- Student of Master Mike Winship

[arnisador]

Originally posted by brianbarton

I have only ever attended one class and just wanted to stick up for ITF Taekwon-Do.

Unfortunately TKD is associated in many peoples' minds with "masters" with unrealistically high belt levels for their ages, very yound black belts, and large and impersonal franchises that seem more about making money than teaching the arts (McDojos, like McDonalds). I think everyone realizes that like any stereotype it certainly can't be fully correct but alas the image sticks.

Another issue is whether TKD is a martial art or a martial sport. Some people don't like the sport aspect of the martial arts being played up so strongly.

Please don't be put off by the negativity! People like you talking about the positives are what will help change it. There are plenty of other arts that have had McDojos associated with them also.

[white dragon]

I personally don't like people refering to TKD as a martial SPORT, rather than art, as it seems to devalue what is being taught. It all comes down to how it's taught, what's kept in and what isn't. You could well enter a class that only teaches Olympic style sparring. Still useful, but not amazingly practicle.

Don't forget taekwondo started as a means of people protecting themselves, so it had to be practicule and... and.... why is it when I read the post I come up with a great response to it, but when I go to type it up I completely forget what I wanted to say?

But anyway, don't worry about the negativity, if you don't know what a mcdojo is then you're more than likely not in one. In which case.... hazzah!

[deadhand31]

Originally posted by arnisador



Unfortunately TKD is associated in many peoples' minds with "masters" with unrealistically high belt levels for their ages, very yound black belts, and large and impersonal franchises that seem more about making money than teaching the arts (McDojos, like McDonalds). I think everyone realizes that like any stereotype it certainly can't be fully correct but alas the image sticks.


I suppose I can understand why that image sticks. I suppose some of those things can be seen in my school. There are three age groups in my school; Little dragons (4-8), Red Dragons (8-13), and Adults (14 and up). Usually, little dragons don't get black belts. It usually happens at the Red Dragon level. Red dragons are also able to make 1st degree.

We have a general timeframe that is adhered to. We tend to make black in around 2 and a half to 3 years, and 1st degree at least a year after that. 2nd degree waits an additional 2-3 years, and 4-5 years after that for 3rd. After that, I'm not sure how it goes.

Alot of the really advanced stuff doesn't happen until we're black. That's when we learn weapons, the advanced techniques, and new forms. It's kind of an incentive to stick around, because that's when the real learning begins.

[thaiboxer]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by white dragon

"As far as the Mcdojo thing goes they only really seem to in America"

nah there in australia too.

[thaiboxer]

Originally posted by white dragon

I personally don't like people refering to TKD as a martial SPORT, rather than art, as it seems to devalue what is being taught. It all comes down to how it's taught, what's kept in and what isn't. You could well enter a class that only teaches Olympic style sparring. Still useful, but not amazingly practicle.

Don't forget taekwondo started as a means of people protecting themselves, so it had to be practicule and... and.... why is it when I read the post I come up with a great response to it, but when I go to type it up I completely forget what I wanted to say?

But anyway, don't worry about the negativity, if you don't know what a mcdojo is then you're more than likely not in one. In which case.... hazzah!

dont worry about what other people think big fella. If you know you can defend yourself who cares.

[white dragon]

mind you, I say that but I haven't really seen many schools in this country enough to judge. Also I don't think there was ever really much of a martial arts boom over here as there was in places like Amerca so there was less opertunity to make money out of it. Just a theory.

"dont worry about what other people think big fella. If you know you can defend yourself who cares."

- indeed I think that goes fro whatever your style is, as long as it WORKS for you then don't worry what anyone else says. Very rarely are you going to mugged on the street by master of kung fu!

[thaiboxer]

Originally posted by white dragon

mind you, I say that but I haven't really seen many schools in this country enough to judge. Also I don't think there was ever really much of a martial arts boom over here as there was in places like Amerca so there was less opertunity to make money out of it. Just a theory.

"dont worry about what other people think big fella. If you know you can defend yourself who cares."

- indeed I think that goes fro whatever your style is, as long as it WORKS for you then don't worry what anyone else says. Very rarely are you going to mugged on the street by master of kung fu!

yeah thats right:D , hey im a green belt now, yipeee

[Cthulhu]

Originally posted by white dragon

mind you, I say that but I haven't really seen many schools in this country enough to judge. Also I don't think there was ever really much of a martial arts boom over here as there was in places like Amerca so there was less opertunity to make money out of it. Just a theory.

"dont worry about what other people think big fella. If you know you can defend yourself who cares."

- indeed I think that goes fro whatever your style is, as long as it WORKS for you then don't worry what anyone else says. Very rarely are you going to mugged on the street by master of kung fu!

Do you think the censoring of martial arts movies in the UK contributed to the lack of a 'martial arts boom' over there?

I guess another factor could be that many of the Asian teachers immigrated to the Americas rather than the UK. Actually, that'd probably be the most significant factor.

Cthulhu

[white dragon]

I must admit I'm a little too young to really know about just how much the censorship of movies played on people being interested in martial arts over here. Wacthing DVDs these days though it seems it's you guys that have movies cut. Watching Drive with the directors commentry on he points out all the stuff that was cut out of the american version, so much that the story was even altered. I don't know how true that is of everything now martial arts wise, I guess it depends on who's putting the film out.

I don't think there's any real censorship on martial arts these days. I believe the fact that a lot of the Asia teachers went to America plays the largest factor in the popularity of the arts over there.

[Damian Mavis]

Hello everyone, my name is Damian Mavis and I run my own ITF Tae Kwon Do school in Ottawa Canada. I just wanted to clarify a couple things that people had misconceptions about.

ITF does continuous sparring (not point sparring) the only time we stop is if someone goes out of the ring or falls down or is bleeding all over the place. At colour belt level it is semi contact for kids and a little harder for adults, at black belt level it is most certainly full contact although you don't need to hit to get the points.....but every tournament I go to in ITF has at least a few knockouts and broken noses. They give you a minus point for doing damage like that but if your opponent doesnt get up and continue you win. I think it's silly to say you shouldn't hit that hard but not disqualify someone when they do (actually rewarding them for it by a win instead).... but that is what I see at ITF tournaments so I guess it's just the way it goes. I don't have a problem with the contact, I just would like it to be officially in the rules.

As for WTF the only major difference is that WTF doesnt allow punching to the head and wears different safety equipment, namely: helmet, torso protector and shin guards whereas ITF wears hand and feet protectors. (both Federations usually wear mouth guard and cup)

Hope this clears a few questions up for some people.

Oh... to the person who said ITF fighters aren't that good in point sparring and continuous....well your right about point sparring because thats not what we train for, but for continous thats all we do every class.....well I guess you've got good reason for thinking that but, try to remember that your limitted experience in watching ITF fighters doesn't include all the fighters everywere. In my neck of the woods we have some excellent fighters.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[kickyou]

You go Damian.You Are absolutely right.Welcome aboard by the way.Did you see my link that I left at the other board?

[Agrippa]

I agree with the person who posted about the unrealistically light contact in the US (ITF style).......

Semi Contact = half=50%... Now how hard can you kick or strike... reduce that by half and .. its still hard!!

All of the US TKD fighters I have seen in comps with European fighters have basically been battered and always looked outclassed and stunned by the level of contact allowed out of the US.......

Mark

[Agrippa]

My friend how old are you???

When Bruce Lee was out in the 70's there was a massive boom... classes with 200+ students... The '70's boom created some of the top people of the '80's such as Alfie Lewis and Tony Sewell.....

When the Karate kid came out there was another boom....

Same with the power rangers,buffy etc etc........

Mark

[gaille]

I'm an ITF black belt living in Europe, and I can only confirm all Damian said.
I attended the last world championship in july, and having seen the fighters faces after a few fights, I can definitely say it was more than light contact... Higher the rank and bigger the tournament, harder is the contact.
When it comes to McDojo, I think this something that does not really exists in Europe. The vast majority of ITF schools in europe are not run by professionnal instructors, and when money is made, it's always reasonnable. It takes time and sweat to move up through the ranks and belts awarded are well deserved. In ITF, masters are people holding a 7th degree BB and up. In the whole world there is roughly a hundred and twenty of them, so believe me, you won't see an ITF master on every street.

[Klondike93]

I don't remember if I'm the one who said that about US fighters or not, but they are creampuffs cause their not allowed to hit hard. Canada, Europe, Asia, Puerto Rico they all train to hit hard and get hit hard. There have been some US ITF fighters that were also full contact fighters that did ok in international tournaments but trained that way. There is a big difference in the way WTF and ITF fight, but not just in the gear worn but also the tactics involved. They do lot's of rear leg kicks, spin kicks, axe kicks and no punches at all that I've seen.
About McDojos, if you look at them I think you'll find the majority of them are of WTF persuasion. I have a nephew that just got his black belt in WTF and in my opinion can't fight his way out of a wet paper bag. Now having said that, the WTF does have some pretty good training ideas and drills that I like to use. They are very flexible and kick pretty fast.

:asian:

[deadhand31]

Well, I'm in a WTF dojang, and we enforce full contact sparring, not 50%, not 60%, 100%. Of course, in sparring, we can't kick/punch to the head or legs, but that's taught in other lessons. We use punches (gasp! yes! punches!!) as well as kicks. We are also required to be flexible, we can't get past red belt if we're under 30 and don't have full splits.

With that said, I agree with many people on the tournaments that I have seen. I hate the idea of point sparring; if you can't contact your opponent at all, then it's no fun. We do wear the protective vests, but in our school, if you aren't moved, the point does not count.

As for no McDojos in Europe, my little sis saw a TKD school in Ireland. She said they "looked like they were doing a dance." Basically, it was Tae Bo.

[Damian Mavis]

People really tend to make sweeping judgements. I'm not criticising anyone here, just stating an observation I've made about human tendencies. As an example I'll use the girl who saw a martial arts class and thought it looked like they were dancing (Tae Bo type class). The school could have a WTF sign on it and has just condemned every WTF school around the world because when we see one school act a certain way we always assume that it represents all WTF everywere. What we need to understand is that EVERY instructor runs his school differently while still barely following the guidelines set out by his/her organisation.

I'll use myself as an example too: I run an ITF school BUT..... my Tae Kwon Do instructor took Kung Fu for eight years so the Tae Kwon Do he taught us was a mix hybrid, on top of that I train in Muay Thai, submission grappling, phillipino weapons and Jun Fan. So...... if you walk into my school you might catch a class when we are doing take downs and choke holds. This means a visiting student will walk out thinking that ITF is very similar to Shooto or brazillian jujitsu. But if they had gone to an ITF school in another neighbourhood they would have seen very traditional one and two step sparring going on.... or maybe its even during their cardio kick class that is geared towards fitness oriented non martial artists.

So my point is, we have to recognise that every school is different because every instructor is different.... some of us make street defence a priority with competition coming last and some schools will make "Tae Bo" a priority because it's where the money is and they need to pay the rent. I can find examples of all types in every martial art and organisation, the trick is finding what you are looking for.

Oh I almost forgot, we also judge all martial arts based on our own school and what we learn. WTF does NOT make it's practitioners wait until 30 to get a red belt and they most certainly kick to the head in sparring but a previous poster has different rules in place at his school. As students we must recognise that our experience isn't the be all and end all of martial arts everywere.... or even our organisation.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[Bagatha]

Originally posted by deadhand31

We are also required to be flexible, we can't get past red belt if we're under 30 and don't have full splits.

[/B]

Im sorry but that is about the worst logic Ive ever heard, and kinda shows the level of education of the instructor. You dont need to have static flexibility to kick someone in the head, and some people are physically incapable of doing the splits should that mean they dont deserve a BB?

[gaille]

Mr Mavis, your words are words of wisdom ! :asian:

[deadhand31]

Originally posted by Bagatha



Im sorry but that is about the worst logic Ive ever heard, and kinda shows the level of education of the instructor. You dont need to have static flexibility to kick someone in the head, and some people are physically incapable of doing the splits should that mean they dont deserve a BB?

Well, as for the worst logic, you're putting words in my mouth. I simply stated it as it is, it is a requirement under 30. I never said you needed full splits to kick to the head, I am an example of that.
Splits do, however, help with balance and power. Flexibility will help a high kick have more speed and power.

However, we all know that there are a few exceptions which will make a person incapable of full splits, ie physical disabilities, old injuries, etc. Alot of our students also started after their 30's. Does this mean that my school is so harsh that it won't be awarded? No. It's a judgement call.

For a person under 30 who has no disabilities, there is no real reason why they shouldn't be able to get full splits. It takes alot of relaxation, and alot of determination, and if you do this constantly for over 2 years, you'll get there.

[Bagatha]

Again, static flexibility will be of little use while kicking. But it looks great when your sitting on the floor. I disagree it should be a requirement.

[Bagatha]

Sorry, that was a little unclear. Read the book "stretching scientifically" by T. Kurz. it explains everything. A few examples from my own club: A red belt we nicknamed gumbi because of his extreme static flexibilty. He has an awful time trying to kick ME in the head and I am prob. 7 inches shorter than him. A black belt from the same club somedays is barely spreading his legs 90 degrees while stretching on the floor, its sad, but he is 6 foot 2 and can spar people his own height and kick them in the head no problem.

[Klondike93]

I have a black belt like that. Most days he he can't even touch the ground bending over, but can kick his head height with ease (about 6 feet high).

:shrug:


:asian:

[Kirk]

Originally posted by deadhand31


There are three age groups in my school; Little dragons (4-8), Red Dragons (8-13), and Adults (14 and up). Usually, little dragons don't get black belts. It usually happens at the Red Dragon level. Red dragons are also able to make 1st degree.

We have a general timeframe that is adhered to. We tend to make black in around 2 and a half to 3 years, and 1st degree at least a year after that. 2nd degree waits an additional 2-3 years, and 4-5 years after that for 3rd. After that, I'm not sure how it goes.


Typically in other arts, you have to be at least 16 (most of the
time 18) before you can receive a black belt. And in most of the
other arts don't award a black belt in 2 and a half years. I'm
not saying this is good or bad, but this is where one of the
stigmas come from.

Now take it that one person in some other style works for 5 years
to get his black belt, and one comes along that's a black belt in
TKD, who got his black belt in 2 years (my old TKD school promised
one in 2 years). Well of course the one with 3 more years of
experience than the other is going to have an advantage in a
fight, or match. This says nothing about one style being better
than the other, it's about experience. Now if you knew nothing
of martial arts, what do you think your feelings would be about
it?

[white dragon]

2 years until a blackbelt?!!? That's shocking! Considering you're meant to wait 6 months between black tag and BB that means you've made it to black tag in one and a half years. In which case I'd be a black tag by now in your class, rather than a green belt! That's kind of worrying.

As for the "kids" blackbelts, as far as I know they have to regrade for their blackbelt at 16, with a normal grading.

[kickyou]

Some schools just want your money they do not care about the quality of the person who is wearing the rank.

[white dragon]

I believe that's what you term a "McDojo"

[kickyou]

MsDojo I like that or then you have the Burger King Dojo's ,They are the ones that let you have it your way.You get to pick what color of uniform you wear,you pick what you are graded on and you pick when you test.

[white dragon]

hehehe, nothing more to add really just thought that was funny and worth saying I thought so. :)

[thaiboxer]

"I'll use myself as an example too: I run an ITF school BUT..... my Tae Kwon Do instructor took Kung Fu for eight years so the Tae Kwon Do he taught us was a mix hybrid, on top of that I train in Muay Thai, submission grappling, phillipino weapons and Jun Fan. "

how much MT have you done?

[Rob_Broad]

Yes, in combat it is the person that makes who is doing the fighting that matter and not the style of martial art they studied. But you have to wonder when a style that is so limited in its natural weapons and has turned itself into a sport for the masses that gives away belts for good grades to children that need to spend a little time over someones knee more than they need a new game for their playstation. This almost ties directly in with the poll http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1338 about losing discipline to appeal to the masses.

TKD has seriously hurt the martial arts for realism and quality in the last 15 yrs or so. TKD has also really helped the martial arts be getting their act together and becoming an Olympic sport and thus exposing many people to the martial arts. Like so many things in the martial arts TKD appears to be a double edged sword, unfortunately the side that does good is becoming dull more often.

[Danny]

Originally posted by Bagatha

Again, static flexibility will be of little use while kicking. But it looks great when your sitting on the floor. I disagree it should be a requirement.

I agree from a technical stand point. However putting in the time to stretch everyday, having the discipline and perseverance to get to your goal shows a much more important part of being a Black Belt then the technical aspects.

[Damian Mavis]

Hey Thaiboxer, I've been in Thaiboxing for over a year now officially although I messed around with friends in Thai boxing for a while before that. I'm aiming for getting ready for some amateur fights but with running my own martial arts school it is hard to keep up the training necessary for that ... so we'll see if I actually follow through on that goal. I try to train Thai style an hour everyday but... as far as I'm concerned I should probably be training several hours a day to get in the ring for a match, only time I can really do that is during the summer so maybe thats what I'll aim for.

What about you?

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD