Do you have any hints or tips in teaching the equation formula?

We devouted a class to it not long ago, Partnering up we had to pick a tec and apply each part of the equation formula (in order) to that technique. 99% of the groups all had issues with prefixing.. we were able to Suffix, Insert, Rearrange was easy enough. Altering went ok.. Adjust .. so so.. Regulate had some issues.. and Delete was a piece of cake..

Wonder why Prefixing was the toughest one to deal with ?

Let's use Delayed Sword, ALternating Maces, Evading the Storm as examples.

Our Instructor easily showed us some examples of prefixing each tec.. but our small minds were having issues..

Tess

Skip Hancock teaches a whole course specifically on prefixing. For about 3 hours we worked on a few simple ideas such as the lead leg kicking to various targets depending upon opponent position. Additionally there was whipping to various targets (eyes, hand etc.)

I believe the difficulty in learning prefixing is that it forces you to choose on the spot a small opening to exploit it wheras "techniques" are by and large memorized. So therefore once in the flow of a tech it is easier to alter, regulate etc but harder to prefix and then make the jump to a memorized routine. The answer to this could be simply to not memorize anything. Another factor is that you have a live bouncing opponent to try and prefix something on. Once you get a shot in and soften him up though it is much easier to go to work. Again once in the flow and you are hitting the person it becomes easier...in my opinion.

Another thought is that we do the techniques such as Delayed Sword hundreds of times but prefixing kinda falls into freestyle (trying to tag a moving opponent). If the students don't freestyle enough it may jump into a different experience for them and seem very uncomfortable at first. If you ever get a chance, take Skip Hancock's course, it gave me a whole bunch of great ways to prefix and move into my opponent.

You may also want to look to the Freestyle techniques as well. (You know, all those funky codes B1a, B1b, etc, etc...) They lay out some interesting patterns and are fun to re-arrange.

Originally posted by MisterMike
You may also want to look to the Freestyle techniques as well. (You know, all those funky codes B1a, B1b, etc, etc...) They lay out some interesting patterns and are fun to re-arrange.

we incorporate freestyle into every other class *G* Most amusing to watch us get totally confused when they're called out fast~!!!

but yeah I see where you're going with this.. I think my issue is .. Delayed sword is just that.. Step back with left foot... Right inner block.. Right cat stance transition to front kick.. sword hand to the neck as you settle into your neutral bow..
It's been carved into concrete in my mind and that whole prefix thing is now something I need to open my mind to.. :)

One of the reasons you may find prefixing hard, is that there is no reason to do it most of the time, especially if you are working in the idea phase. When working spontaneosly I will prefix alot of techniques with a front snap kick. I usually find prefixing easier if an ideal attack is altered and you use a prefix to set up an ideal phase technique.
For instance if someone throws a left hook with their left leg back instead of a step through punch. You could go straight into sheilding hammer but it would be better if you prefix the block with a snap kick to the bladder and then go into the technique. There are alot more ways to use it, that's just a basic example.
Also, try not to think to hard about what you're going to prefix a technique with, just move. You'd be amazed what your body will do without thinking about it.

Matt

I think that you hit the nail on the head Matt, We were put on the spot to utilize the Equation formula into a chosen tec.. so knowing we had a time constraint.. it made us overthink what we were attempting to do.. it was certainly a good drill instilling what we were aiming for.. just showed me and quite a few others how much more there is to learn :)

Thanks~!

Tess

Prefixing can be an nice way of delaying the timing of an opponent's attack. Think of a kick to the knee as the opponent comes in for an attack. It can be a function of you controlling "Range" also.

An easy drill Tess, is to insert a strike as part of any checking action. Move from Passive to Active Checks, at first, just as a drill. If you are pinning a hand, enlongate the circle slightly and insert an eye rake or slice. It does not matter whether their face is really there or not...it is, in your mind. If you are doing a technique like Bow of Compulsion or Entangled Wing, insert a finger thrust to the eyes as you pin their hands. Find new ways and places to do this, it could be a theme for a Black Belt Thesis or Form.

I like to clump the Equation Formula for beginners into:

Prefix
Suffix
Insert
Delete

Rearrange

Adjust
Alter
Regulate

The 1st 4 have a direct correlation to language and modification of a simple sentence. They are also the easiest "pieces" of the Equation Formula to apply (in some ways). Rearranging words is also a concept that even kids can "get".

Oss,
-MB

Originally posted by KenpoTess
we incorporate freestyle into every other class *G* Most amusing to watch us get totally confused when they're called out fast~!!!

but yeah I see where you're going with this.. I think my issue is .. Delayed sword is just that.. Step back with left foot... Right inner block.. Right cat stance transition to front kick.. sword hand to the neck as you settle into your neutral bow..
It's been carved into concrete in my mind and that whole prefix thing is now something I need to open my mind to.. :)
Tess,
I think there is a danger in practicing and expecting the ideal. One of the exercises we do is to only teach the first two moves of a tech (to a new student) and challenge them to figure out what the next move should be. As far as prefixing, I sort of laugh because if you see delayed sword or or alternating maces as motions that you make all the time wheather concious or unconciously. Then any target that presents itself will automaticly be the prefix and or the first move of this basic motion. I wouldn't worry about getting that cat stance just right because sometimes you kick sometimes you adjust for distance or just simply step off the line of attack and work an evading the storm or gathering clouds idea. That what the equation formula is all about. My advice to you would to study the family related moves chart. Techs such as dance of death, thundering hammers, sleeper, grasping eagles, and unwinding pendulum are actualy variations of eachother. Each has a unique tactical ending which can through hook or crook be used at the end of any related technique idea. This is not to mention that it is just as easy to at any point switch from the low zones I just mentioned to the middle zone's delayed sword, alternating maces, attacking mace, flashing wings, circling the storm, and the bear and the ram. That is not to metion that by simply ducking or placing yourself on the outside of a punch you are now working the outside zones where you may (without an outward block or parry) find yourself in the middle of a Checking the storm, twirling wings, sword of destruction, sheilding hammer, evading the storm, protecting fans, sheild and mace, leap from danger, or snaking talon idea.

Personaly I choose to forget which idea I am working on at any given moment. That way I am never disapointed (ha ha) but seriosly, all this stuff blends toguether so why fight it? You might have to unlearn a lot more than you need to learn about formulation.

Originally posted by ArnoldLee
Skip Hancock teaches a whole course specifically on prefixing. For about 3 hours we worked on a few simple ideas such as the lead leg kicking to various targets depending upon opponent position. Additionally there was whipping to various targets (eyes, hand etc.)

I believe the difficulty in learning prefixing is that it forces you to choose on the spot a small opening to exploit it wheras "techniques" are by and large memorized. So therefore once in the flow of a tech it is easier to alter, regulate etc but harder to prefix and then make the jump to a memorized routine. The answer to this could be simply to not memorize anything. Another factor is that you have a live bouncing opponent to try and prefix something on. Once you get a shot in and soften him up though it is much easier to go to work. Again once in the flow and you are hitting the person it becomes easier...in my opinion.

Another thought is that we do the techniques such as Delayed Sword hundreds of times but prefixing kinda falls into freestyle (trying to tag a moving opponent). If the students don't freestyle enough it may jump into a different experience for them and seem very uncomfortable at first. If you ever get a chance, take Skip Hancock's course, it gave me a whole bunch of great ways to prefix and move into my opponent.
Kudo's for mentioning the Skip Hancock courses. Check out the family related moves chart that he designed.

TOD Orig Posted:

One of the exercises we do is to only teach the first two moves of a tech (to a new student) and challenge them to figure out what the next move should be.



Great idea TOD, and one I plan to try. It might be a little tough at first, but it gets them THINKING from the 1st lesson on.

Excellent!
-MB

Originally posted by Michael Billings
[i]

Great idea TOD, and one I plan to try. It might be a little tough at first, but it gets them THINKING from the 1st lesson on.

Excellent!
-MB
This is also an excellent way to train the attackers to throw real attacks. All to often a body spends so much time trying to avoid the stikes that he knows are comming. This is a way to tell the guys doing the tech to just hit what presents itself. My instructor always says "Make sure he is always checking the wrong target."

Thanks all for your replies~!

Mr. Conatser & Seig gave me excellent physical lllustrations to work with and after last nights class.. I'm right on course~!


*G* my mind has a good grip~! *now just to embed it *G*

Just to be a wacky intellectual, I personally recommend a little reading in structuralist theory--Levi-Strauss, "The Raw and the Cooked," Saussure, "Course in General Linguistics"--and if you do an internet search, there's a very nice short lecture available through the University of Colorado, on basic structuralism and its implications.

Fundamentally, I don't see the Formula as a real formula, but as a metaphor. And I think that metaphor's a structuralist one: simple elements, a few basic principles for hooking the elements together, permissible reshufflings of the same basic deck of cards...and a principle of analysis based on looking for the "vocabulary," the principles of combination, the limits on restructuring, in other systems...

And I suspect that Mr. Parker'd been taking classes in something like anthroploogy back in the early 50s at BYU, when he started coming up with the basic teaching system of kenpo...

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
Just to be a wacky intellectual, I personally recommend a little reading in structuralist theory--Levi-Strauss, "The Raw and the Cooked," Saussure, "Course in General Linguistics"

On a similar note, there is no such thing as an "equation formula" in mathematics. The two terms are nearly synonomous, though we think of a formula as an expression showing how to calculate something and an equation as something to be solved for a value.

The use of 'formula' in chemistry is similar.


Fundamentally, I don't see the Formula as a real formula, but as a metaphor. And I think that metaphor's a structuralist one: simple elements, a few basic principles for hooking the elements together, permissible reshufflings of the same basic deck of cards...and a principle of analysis based on looking for the "vocabulary," the principles of combination, the limits on restructuring, in other systems...

Ah, group theory (abstract algebra).

Yes, it sounds like one is given elements of a (countable) universal set and rules for constructing lists (ordered sets) that satisfy certain rules. In fact, it sounds more like a grammar that specifies allowable sentences more than a formula that specifies precisely (e.g. algorithmically) how to create a list.

There ya go. The term in linguistics--it's Noam Chomsky's, and a little out-of-date--is, "generative grammar." You know...Noun Phrase + Verb Phrase + Object Phrase, then you start rearranging, deleting, adding, etc., to generate new sentences...

Frankly, I don't think it's in terms like, "equation formula," that we see Mr. Parker at his absolute best. I think it's more in structures like the Web of Knowledge...and the rest of the teaching system.

But the purest expression of structuralism in kenpo, to me, comes in the sparring maneuvers--B1a, B1b, KB1a, B1aK, and the rest.

preffixing takes a little thought on some techniques ,bu i personally will suffix five swords to just about every technique i do. once i was practicing thrusting prongs in class and my instructor says to suffix it. so i go from thrusting prongs to five swords and then straight to aggressive twins.now i do it all the time.

preffixing takes a little thought on some techniques ,bu i personally will suffix five swords to just about every technique i do. once i was practicing thrusting prongs in class and my instructor says to suffix it. so i go from thrusting prongs to five swords and then straight to aggressive twins.now i do it all the time.Are you sure its safe to constantly gravitate to the inside?
Sean

Are you sure its safe to constantly gravitate to the inside?
Sean

I was thinking the same thing. Might want to rethink that in later stages of training. The inside is not the ideal place to be.

If you use the inside then strike and get out don't stay there. It's a bad place too be.

Are you sure its safe to constantly gravitate to the inside?
Sean

Thanks for the advice. i will keep that in mind for the future.althoug i have a long way to go in my training.but then again dont we all ?

My advice to the original question; "Don't."

My advice to the original question; "Don't."Prefixing and suffixing is not the end of the world.
sean

preffixing takes a little thought on some techniques ,bu i personally will suffix five swords to just about every technique i do. once i was practicing thrusting prongs in class and my instructor says to suffix it. so i go from thrusting prongs to five swords and then straight to aggressive twins.now i do it all the time.

Hi
I know what you mean, but strictly speaking are you sure that this is suffixing, would grafting or compounding be more accurate.
Respectfully
Rich

Hi
I know what you mean, but strictly speaking are you sure that this is suffixing, would grafting or compounding be more accurate.
Respectfully
Rich

I'd say for people with a lot of experience like yourself Rich, it's good to work on those things. But teachers should find one way they want something done, and teach that one way to their students, and give them the opportunity to learn and make it work.

Students tend to be bombarded by what if's, rearrangements, and a long list of physical possibilities, when they just really want to be shown something that they can have confidence will actually work. Its fine to itellectualize, AFTER they learn to defend themselves. :)

Its fine to itellectualize, AFTER they learn to defend themselves. :)

That's the "outside the box" thinking that's gets you in trouble in kenpo-land, Cap'n. Kenpo is not supposed to be practical or useful; it is meant solely as a heady, intellectual pursuit to distract people from their problems and wallets from thier money. Then you come along and tell us we should be able to make it work! Pah!

Be good,

Dr. Dave

i found the equation formula to be a perfect example of one of the weaknesses of kenpo.

in many ways, kenpo is 'karate for the geek in us', by which i mean it's an attempt to deeply analyze, quantify, label and define what makes martial arts work.

there are strengths in this. a quality kenpo black belt can go forth and learn just about anything else out there -- you've seen a piece of it before in your kenpo and start at the head of the class. also, martial arts geekery can be fun.

but sometimes we go too far. the equation formula is a fancy way of teaching people to experiment. by trying to quantify what is ultimately something spontaneous and creative, it tends to stifle spontenaiety and creativity.

better to just master the technique as written and then say 'what else might we do with this theme?'. i've found my students understand and apply the concept much faster with that presentation than when we asked them to memorize the equation formula.

i found the equation formula to be a perfect example of one of the weaknesses of kenpo.

in many ways, kenpo is 'karate for the geek in us', by which i mean it's an attempt to deeply analyze, quantify, label and define what makes martial arts work.

there are strengths in this. a quality kenpo black belt can go forth and learn just about anything else out there -- you've seen a piece of it before in your kenpo and start at the head of the class. also, martial arts geekery can be fun.

but sometimes we go too far. the equation formula is a fancy way of teaching people to experiment. by trying to quantify what is ultimately something spontaneous and creative, it tends to stifle spontenaiety and creativity.

better to just master the technique as written and then say 'what else might we do with this theme?'. i've found my students understand and apply the concept much faster with that presentation than when we asked them to memorize the equation formula.The weakness is in relying soley on the techniques to learn the art. They are just a tool, and realizing that its OK to delete a kick here and there, or throw any given move at the end of a tech is important... really!
Sean

The weakness is in relying soley on the techniques to learn the art. They are just a tool, and realizing that its OK to delete a kick here and there, or throw any given move at the end of a tech is important... really!
Sean

True, but let the instructors make that decision, not the student.

True, but let the instructors make that decision, not the student.I'll go with that.:)
Sean

I'd say for people with a lot of experience like yourself Rich, it's good to work on those things. But teachers should find one way they want something done, and teach that one way to their students, and give them the opportunity to learn and make it work.

Students tend to be bombarded by what if's, rearrangements, and a long list of physical possibilities, when they just really want to be shown something that they can have confidence will actually work. Its fine to itellectualize, AFTER they learn to defend themselves. :)

You know Doc, the more I train and teach the truer I am finding the above to be.
cheers Rich
ps thanks for the compliment, Sir.