What's the deal??

[DogsofWar.cc]

what's up with Junchnik? Fraud or For Real?

[Cthulhu]

DogsofWar.cc,

By placing this post in more than one forum/thread at once (you posted a nearly exact copy in the General forum), you have violated the forum rules on crossposting. Please refrain from doing so in the future.

Thank you,

Cthulhu
-MT Moderator-

[DogsofWar.cc]

I was an idiot... Didn't see the Kenpo section... Sorry for the stupid mikstake..

[Goldendragon7]

He has been around for a long time. Personally I don't care for what he does. But that's just my opinion.

:asian:

[Bob Hubbard]

No worries mate. Most of us dont bite...much. :D

[Goldendragon7]

:eek:

[Bob Hubbard]

Well...there is an art or sub art based on biting...... :D

[superdave]

Who is Junchnik?

[Bob Hubbard]

Ya know....thats a very good question.

I was wondering the same thing....

:confused: :confused:

[Robbo]

The little I know about Junchnik,

He was a personel student of Mr. Mitose while he was in Fulsom prison. When I took some seminars with him he was either the head of close to the top of Kosho Ryu Kempo.

As for the seminars I figure as long as you come out of them with one or two good ideas to work then you got your money's worth.


Stole this from the net:

"Bruce Juchnik - Known as Hanshi Bruce Juchnik of Kosho Ryu Kempo, learned the philosophical (spiritual) aspects of Kosho Ryu from Great Grand Master James Mitose while he was in prison. Believes, that he is the gate keeper of the Mitose style, and has formed Sei Kosho Shorei Kai. "

Cheers,
Rob

[Bob Hubbard]

Ahh... thank you. That connects a few dots in this puzzle.

:asian:

[Goldendragon7]

I don't think he extracted all that much... I think he is just an opportunist looking for a signature. How much can you learn from an inmate in a short period of time. Where is the honor & character in learning an art from a convicted person ~ who would want to pass down or belong to a legacy of that nature.

Secrets.... everyone wants secrets.

Reality....... there ain't no easy way!

:asian:

[DogsofWar.cc]

Have heard he is a real good technition, just a dick personally. He has a ton of videos, but seems alittle money motivated..

[Goldendragon7]

Where do you find his videos at?
:confused:

[tunetigress]

I have never heard of this guy either! Is someone able to elaborate a little more on his style? _(_)_ Tune

[Nate_Hoopes]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

I don't think he extracted all that much... I think he is just an opportunist looking for a signature. How much can you learn from an inmate in a short period of time. Where is the honor & character in learning an art from a convicted person ~ who would want to pass down or belong to a legacy of that nature.

Secrets.... everyone wants secrets.

Reality....... there ain't no easy way!

:asian:


I would think prision would be a great place to learn martial arts if theres someone there that can teach the stuff, I dont neccasarily think some of those people have the right mental attitude to learn the arts, but where else do you have more time to put into practice, How long would it take someone to get the skill of a black belt if they started today but had 8 hours a day to work on everything. What was this guy convicted of, If he was in there for some white collar crime, or fraud or something of that nature i dont see a problem with him learning and teaching the arts, people make mistakes, not everyone is beyond rehabilitation. Maybe him learning the martial arts helped him to see the difference beteween right and wrong. We were not there we dont have right to pass judgement on anyone. Some say mitose was a great gentle man, some say mitose was a murderous thug out to extort money from people. Were you there, do you really know either way?

:asian:

[donald]

Originally posted by tunetigress
I have never heard of this guy either! Is someone able to elaborate a little more on his style?

Tune,
From what I've read of the gentleman. He does have a legit kenpo background. I believe he rose to the rank of 3rd black in the Tracy system, and if I remember correctly he holds dan rankings in some more traditional systems as well. The story is that he trained with Mr.Mitose while he was a guard at Folsom.
Learning the Kosho Ryu way of Kempo, and eventually leaving the Tracy system. Mr.Mitose supposedly awarded Mr.Junich the top dawg title of the abovementioned system. Although there are two others (one being Mitose's son) with legit claims to this "style" that I know of. Now regarding martial arts training in prison. As far as I know is verboten through out the U.S. of A.'s penal system? I believe there are some on this forum who can give you greater insight into the Kosho Ryu system.I hope this was somewhat helpful?
Salute in Christ,
Donald :asian:

[Dave Simmons]

I have seen a couple of his videos. I don't think so! His reputation is severly mared.

I wouldn't recommend him for Kosho Ryu. He capitalized on Mitose who knows...however Proofs in The Pudding! A little sour I would say...

Regards,

Dave Simmons
Twin Dragon Karate

[DogsofWar.cc]

He claims to be the head honcho of KoshoShorei Ryu Kempo....

[Dave Simmons]

That's right he feels he is the "gatekeeper" for Mitose. The only dilema is Mitose son Thomas is the rightful successor. All documented...

Bruce has his own thing...but not withthose who know the difference.

Peace,

Dave Simmons:rofl:

[Rob_Broad]

You have to wonder about a person claiming to be the head of a system that was taught to him while he was a guard in a jail by an inmate. You also have to take into consideration what jail it was. Folsom prison is a pretty famous place, because it had the many of the worst inmates out there. I think he is capitalizing on an opportune situation since Mitose is dead and can't refute the truth.

[Dave Simmons]

Rob,

I agree! Automatic style head honcho and mystic cosmo smoke and mirrors expert.

Take care,

Dave Simmons:lol:

[Blindside]

Oddly enough I have run across his videos on ebay, but not in the kenpo section. It was under escrima/arnis/kali listings that I saw his videos where he was listed as a guro, and teaching a stick art. Anyone know his FMA background?

Just curious,

Lamont

[Rob_Broad]

Unfortunately as more of the older generation of martial artists pass on, there will be more of these type of people making claims of their lineage.

[Goldendragon7]

So, it is good to ask around and find out the true background before all those that know are not around to ask anymore.

:asian:

[Rob_Broad]

The Modern Arnis community can expect to go through this with the passing of Remy Presas. maybe they can learn from our mistakes before gets to be too late.

[Goldendragon7]

But people are people. Tim seems to have his head on straight. I don't think he cares what the others do..... He is already heading in the right direction that he wants to follow. The rest can fend for themselves or seek and convert.

:asian:

[Ronin]

Man and I use to work in the jails. What a scary thing it would be to teach those low lifes kenpo. Many of them lack discipline and maturity, thats how they ended up there in the first place. What would be funny is to print up some t-shirts that say "outlaw kenpo student trained in cell block a" I wonder what their forms would consist of? I could see it now at tournaments "My form is fudge pack set 1" Perhaps they have soap picking up techniques as part of the fundamentals. Sorry I am starting to ramble again....

[Goldendragon7]

Then they will attack a guard and he will shoot him.!!

:asian:

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Ronin

"My form is fudge pack set 1"


EEEEEEEEEEEEWWWWWWWW!!! I'd rather die than dummy
for that one!

[Goldendragon7]

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Ditto!!!

[tigerstorm]

Gentlemen,
I believe that your getting slightly off track on the question of Bruce Juchnick. Hanshi Bruce Juchnick did study with Great Grandmaster James Mitose while he was in prison however the catch to this is that he studied mainly the mental aspects while there. He did however get some limited physical training from Grandmaster Mitose while he was gardening, (I believe at the governors house). Grandmaster Mitose was imprisoned for one of his students killing someone. Grandmaster was a very legitimate practitioner, who started training in the family art of Kempo at the age of 5. His imprisonment was the result as I said of a student killing a man, it was thought that Grandmaster Mitose had given the order for the student to do so. Should also mention that Grandmaster Mitose was a Shinto priest. Whether Hanshi Juchnik is for real or not is i guess an opinion. I dont personally think that he has the full range of Grandmaster Mitoses teachings since grandmaster Mitose broke the ideas of Kempo into three parts. Again most of Hanshi Juchniks training was mental, that is therefore the side he tries to relay in his own teachings. He teaches Sei Kosho-Shorie Kai. Now if in this I have made a mistake on an age or number or such please excuse me. In closing I do wish to defend Grandmaster Mitose in saying he did not just teach Kempo to prisoners, and he was a very highly regarded man in his own right. To go quickly down the line, Grandmaster William K.S. Chow studied under Grandmaster Mitose and is one of 5 black belts from his Hawaiin school. Grandmaster Chow went on to teach Grandmaster Ed Parker and down.
Tigerstorm

[Chiduce]

Tigerstorm, I think that was well put! Bruce Juchnik is part of the Jukokai, Juko-Ryu family in the Kiyojute Ryu Kempo Bugei Of Dr. William Durbin And Dr. Rod Sacharnoski! Hanshi Juchnik is recognized by the World Head Of Family Sokeship Council. This in itself, tells a positive bit about the master. " In 1953, he ( James Mitose) moved to the mainland in california. Where he taught eventually several atudents, with his most prominent one being Nimr R. Hassan. Hassan trained directly in Mitose's house learning in-depth aspects of not only traditional Kosho Ryu Kempo Jujitsu and Shorei Ryu Kempo Karate, but also Koga Ha Ninjitsu, including Koppo. Later, Mitose brought Bruce Juchnik under his tutelage. A chinese stylist, Junik was instructed for nearly five years in the principles of Kosho Shorei Ryu Kempo, which differed from the training he previously received. When Mitose died, Juchnik decided to preserve the art, as he understood it, and pass it on to future generations. Among Bruce Juchniks students has been Thomas Barro Mitose, son of James Mayaoshi Mitose, who is the current head of Kosho Shorei Ryu, teaches his intrepretations of Kempo, using influences from other instructors of the martial arts. Bruce Juchnik heads the Sei Kosho Shorei Kai, which is a cultural organization preserving not only the traditional art of Kosho Ryu Kempo, but also the cultural art of japan, including Shodo, calligraphy, and Shiatsu." Source: ("Excerpts From Chapter Four-America; Kiyojute Ryu Kai Kiyojute Ryu Kempo Bugei Dr. William Durbin, Soke Author, 1994"): Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

[kenpo3631]

Originally posted by tigerstorm

Gentlemen,
I believe that your getting slightly off track on the question of Bruce Juchnick. Hanshi Bruce Juchnick did study with Great Grandmaster James Mitose while he was in prison however the catch to this is that he studied mainly the mental aspects while there. He did however get some limited physical training from Grandmaster Mitose while he was gardening, (I believe at the governors house). Grandmaster Mitose was imprisoned for one of his students killing someone. Grandmaster was a very legitimate practitioner, who started training in the family art of Kempo at the age of 5. His imprisonment was the result as I said of a student killing a man, it was thought that Grandmaster Mitose had given the order for the student to do so. Should also mention that Grandmaster Mitose was a Shinto priest. Whether Hanshi Juchnik is for real or not is i guess an opinion. I dont personally think that he has the full range of Grandmaster Mitoses teachings since grandmaster Mitose broke the ideas of Kempo into three parts. Again most of Hanshi Juchniks training was mental, that is therefore the side he tries to relay in his own teachings. He teaches Sei Kosho-Shorie Kai. Now if in this I have made a mistake on an age or number or such please excuse me. In closing I do wish to defend Grandmaster Mitose in saying he did not just teach Kempo to prisoners, and he was a very highly regarded man in his own right. To go quickly down the line, Grandmaster William K.S. Chow studied under Grandmaster Mitose and is one of 5 black belts from his Hawaiin school. Grandmaster Chow went on to teach Grandmaster Ed Parker and down.
Tigerstorm

If you're in a MAXIMUM security prison such a Folsom, how can you do any physical martial arts training at all. You would be locked up in a cell 23 out of the 24 hours of the day! My former instructor was a guard at a Max. Security prison here in Massachusetts so that's how I know this:D . Any thoughts on this?:asian:

[Kirk]

The story of Mitose AND Juchnick are not proven
anywhere! I've found books, and websites written by people
making various claims. Anywhere from Mitose being a total
and complete fraud to him being a huge mystical master. Anyone
coming in here saying one or the other, can't produce any proof,
because NONE EXISTS other than periodicals or books where
the author claims to have talked to so and so, or talked to
specific witnesses. The only problem I have are where people
place so much reverence with Mitose, and none for his offspring.
You'd think someone sooo smart and of such high moral standing,
as some would say, would be able to pass that off to his son.
Yet there's people who place reverence with Mitose, and call
Mitose's son a liar, because he's claiming to be the heir apparant.

So many make claims, adamantly about this, but I'll believe it
the day I see something tangible.

[Ronin]

jail is for puishment not for play.

[Chiduce]

Originally posted by Kirk

The story of Mitose AND Juchnick are not proven
anywhere! I've found books, and websites written by people
making various claims. Anywhere from Mitose being a total
and complete fraud to him being a huge mystical master. Anyone
coming in here saying one or the other, can't produce any proof,
because NONE EXISTS other than periodicals or books where
the author claims to have talked to so and so, or talked to
specific witnesses. The only problem I have are where people
place so much reverence with Mitose, and none for his offspring.
You'd think someone sooo smart and of such high moral standing,
as some would say, would be able to pass that off to his son.
Yet there's people who place reverence with Mitose, and call
Mitose's son a liar, because he's claiming to be the heir apparant.

So many make claims, adamantly about this, but I'll believe it
the day I see something tangible. Ok, I just have 3 questions here! 1. If this claim cannot be proven; then where actually did Kosho Ryu Kempo come from? #2. (The same contoversy rises around the credentials of William K.S. Chow); so where and who did he really learn kenpo from? #3. If these first 2 questions cannot be proven, then would this not bring validity claims to Ed. Parker learning kenpo from Chow? Now i see several facts here; one is that Mitose did in fact live and practice what he called Kosho Ryu Kempo. Second that Chow did live and claim to have learned this Kosho Ryu Kempo from Mitose. Third that Ed. Parker did live and claimed to have learned this Kenpo and Kung Fu mixture from Chow! Fourth, that Bruce Juchnik did in fact Train Thomas Barro Mitose in Kosho Ryu Kempo and Shorei Ryu Kempo Jujitsu. Finally, that Nimr Hassan did in fact train under Mitose in Kosho Ryu Kempo and Koppo. Any thought's here? Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

[tigerstorm]

Im not trying in anyway to take anyone side on this issue, Im just trying to give out some of the information that I have been told.
I have no proof in front of me nor am I going to pull out books to research Im just saying as best I can what Ive heard and been taught.
James Mitoses uncle was Choki Mitobu, Mitose reportedly had training from him at a young age. Look Mitobu up, if this is true there is some credential there.
As has been stated, and if we wish to talk highly of Mr. Ed Parker, maybe we should be careful, what we say about this gentleman. William K.S. Chow received black rank from this man, and if Mitoses is full of crap as we seem to be going that direction, should I be so bold as to say so is all of Kempo/ Kenpo in the U.S. today.
Ed Parker must have had only, BOGUS training if he studied under William Chow based on the fact that Chows primary instruction came from a man who didnt know jack.
Again Im not trying to belittle info just say that to look at Kempo/Kenpo in America it will almost always travel directly to this man we are belittling.
Also as I said Hanshi Juchniks physical training came from Grandmaster Mitose while he was gardening at the governors house. Lets remember maximum security prison or not, Mitose was not accused of murdering anyone. He was also highly thought of for his work with the U.S. government. (Dont try to look it up the records are sealed).
Again with no disrespect but lets not assume the worst in this case. Im not claiming Mitose had godlike power or was the Greates Master in the world Im just saying maybe were assuming the word prison means horrible person.
Tigerstorm

[Kirk]

Originally posted by tigerstorm

As has been stated, and if we wish to talk highly of Mr. Ed Parker, maybe we should be careful, what we say about this gentleman. William K.S. Chow received black rank from this man, and if Mitoses is full of crap as we seem to be going that direction, should I be so bold as to say so is all of Kempo/ Kenpo in the U.S. today.

The problem comes in with Chow's relation to Mitose. I'm no
expert on this at all, but there's disagreements all over the net
about their relationship together, and the martial arts training
that Chow received. Was it 100% from Mitose? I've heard a
ton of stories answering both yes and no ... and no proof either
way, just adamant claims. Few doubt Chow's knowledge, nor
Parker's .. but a LOT have disputed Mitose's hand in it.


Originally posted by tigerstorm

Also as I said Hanshi Juchniks physical training came from Grandmaster Mitose while he was gardening at the governors house. Lets remember maximum security prison or not, Mitose was not accused of murdering anyone.

The way I heard, it he claimed responsibility for the murder, and
the charge was accessory to murder. That's an accusation in
my book. YET ... few dispute who did the killing in this scenario,
but few think he was an innocent bystander as well. Few also
dispute that Mistose's main income came from extortion, and the
murder in question happened when one of his students/cronies
was sent to collect money.


Originally posted by tigerstorm

He was also highly thought of for his work with the U.S. government. (Dont try to look it up the records are sealed).
Again with no disrespect but lets not assume the worst in this case. Im not claiming Mitose had godlike power or was the Greates Master in the world Im just saying maybe were assuming the word prison means horrible person.
Tigerstorm


His work with the U.S. government is a new one on me. I've read
LOADS of web pages dedicated to praising or attacking Mitose,
yet I've never stumbled on this one.

You're right prison does not necessarily mean horrible person, but
accessory to murder, and extortion puts them on the honorable
mention list to me!


Originally posted by Chiduce

Ok, I just have 3 questions here! 1. If this claim cannot be proven; then where actually did Kosho Ryu Kempo come from? #2. (The same contoversy rises around the credentials of William K.S. Chow); so where and who did he really learn kenpo from? #3. If these first 2 questions cannot be proven, then would this not bring validity claims to Ed. Parker learning kenpo from Chow? Now i see several facts here; one is that Mitose did in fact live and practice what he called Kosho Ryu Kempo. Second that Chow did live and claim to have learned this Kosho Ryu Kempo from Mitose. Third that Ed. Parker did live and claimed to have learned this Kenpo and Kung Fu mixture from Chow! Fourth, that Bruce Juchnik did in fact Train Thomas Barro Mitose in Kosho Ryu Kempo and Shorei Ryu Kempo Jujitsu. Finally, that Nimr Hassan did in fact train under Mitose in Kosho Ryu Kempo and Koppo. Any thought's here? Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


I think I've already posted my thoughts in addressing this. But
to reiterate: It's been suggested that Chow's training didn't
only come from Mitose. It's been suggested that a LOT (high
numbers here) of people that have met Mitose were UNimpressed
with his M.A. abilities, yet impressed with Chow's. Ed Parker
did in fact claim to have learned his kenpo from Chow .. he has
stated just as emphatically that he has NO ASSOCIATION with
Mitose as far as training goes.

[Goldendragon7]

Mitose had a record a mile long and died in Jail. He was a con man!! Sure he had a martial arts background...... but so did Count Dante!

[tigerstorm]

Again Im not trying to raise nor belittle anyone with what Im saying only expressing things as Ive heard and learned them. I think that the Tracy web page has some information on the matter that mentions that they werent able to get much about Mitose because of some secret work through the U>S government.
Also I never have said that William Chow only studied under Mitose I only mentioned the fact that he is one of 5 black ranks from Mitose's Hawaiin school. I would assume that this means he did train under Mitose. As for Mitoses techniques, I dont know about you but I wasnt there, so Im not goign to praise nor question them. All Im asking I guess is that we stop belittling a man that no one seems to be able to find any information about, good or bad. Again nothing ive said is in anyway directed to insult or offend anyone. Ive heard rumors that Chow studied his fathers art, Ive also heard that this was never done and that his father never knew anything.
The Two gentlemen in question, Chow and Mitose both seem to have very clouded pasts, it seems that the only true information on them is what one person has heard or supposedly seen. I think perhaps we should leave these to deceased men (whether right nor wrong) to rest in piece and not frown on them if we were not there to see what they have done or for that matter have not done.
Deepest respects, Tigerstorm

[Chiduce]

For those interested in another side of the Mitose story; the kiyojute ryu kempo bugei wedsite of Soke Durbin has what is supposed to be very reliable information in his article on James M. Mitose! Kirk And Tigerstorm; the both of you should find this article very insightful and informative! The url is http://www.kiyojuteryu.org/soke/ then click on the online articles section! Soke Durbin is an honored martial historian and authority in the area of ancient and modern Kempo/Kenpo Karate, Jujitsu/Jujutsu, and Aikijujutsu. The Mitose article is entitled " James Masayoshi Mitose: The First American Kempo Master" ! You can also enjoy the other 69 articles left. Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

[alan libby]

Whow - Gentleman that was the most sorrowful thing I have read in a long time - First of all tigerstorm - good job-
you my friend have been doing your homework - next - in fact one could be in jail and work out of the cell or off grounds
- it is call work release - and in that time and day one could earn the right to do so.
and as tiger said he did work with hanchi j - mentaly and when the 24 hour guard was not taking notice for giving RESPECT to the two phyical did enter the seraph. U see this is call respect,
to a man that had many thing go a stray in his life. but that does mean that he was not a good martial artist.
after all we can not change the action of others / all we can do is to change ourselves
three/ keys

[kelly keltner]

You have to wonder about a person claiming to be the head of a system that was taught to him while he was a guard in a jail by an inmate. You also have to take into consideration what jail it was. Folsom prison is a pretty famous place, because it had the many of the worst inmates out there. I think he is capitalizing on an opportune situation since Mitose is dead and can't refute the truth.
Juchnik was naver a guard
kell

[Karazenpo]

Wow, a lot of misinformation here. First of all, Kelly is right, Juchnik was never a guard, one of his students was and he put him in touch with Mitose. Secondly Mitose was never a Shinto priest or an ordained minister either-this came out at his trial. Thirdly-work release? Gardening? That's a new one on me. The highly respected Professor Eugene Sedeno also made these visits in question. I have this from phone conversations with the Professor, so this is not heresay. It is true that the guards didn't really supervise these visits because over the years Mitose proved them no problem. The visits were outside on a grass area at a picnic table and Mitose verbalized and sometimes made hand gestures when explaining something. Mostly he would tell them where to look for the information they were seeking. Did Juchnik train Thomas Barros Mitose? Well, Thomas was originally a Joe Halbuna Kajukenbo black belt. I know for a while Juchnik and others attempted to get him involved originally and went over some material but in the end, from what I was told, Thomas was not interested and later did his own thing with his father's art. Now, was he a con man and criminal? I would have to say the jury has long been in on that one. Again, I have first hand knowledge of the trial transcripts and his probation officer's report and there is no doubt in my mind that he was involved in criminal activities along with the murder and extortion he was accused of. Martial arts training and ability? Information on an A&E Investigation called: Hawaii: The Gateway to the Martial Arts (Info from John Bishop), a 92 year old martial art classmate of Mitose who states Mitose studied under Nabura Tanamaha, a first or second Choki Motobu black belt in Hawaii. If this is true then he had Kenpo Karate training, Okinawan Kenpo Karate. Much more has also been uncovered in this investigation. Professor Jaimie Abregana is conducting the investigation. We are waiting on this and also on Shihan Mike Brown, another highly respected martial artist and historian from Rhode Island, not too far from my home, who related to me that he has documentation of Mitose training in Japan and will be releasing it in the near future although it is not under the Yoshida lineage that the Tracy website reports. Shihan Brown has shared some of this information with me. I also had some questions run past Sijo Adriano Emperado, founder of Kajukenbo who also studied with Mitose for a while by my friend Professor Gerry Scott of Hawaii. One of my questions was: Could Mitose have learned the 'surface arts', possibly from a book, had some natural ability, put it together and taught it to unsuspecting Hawaiians? He stated no, that Mitose's ability was that of a master instructor and that the kenpo he taught was believed by the seniors of that time to have been Okinawan in origin but no proof was ever given. Hey, don't shoot the messenger. This is what I have come up with my research. Please bear in mind, I'm not trying to prove or disprove anything about Mitose, I'm just attempting to get at the facts the best I can. So, as I stated at the beginning of my post, some are far off on this Mitose thing. I have seen adds for the Juchnik videos and it appears to me he teaches the traditional Okinawan Kenpo Karate forms as Kosho-Shorei ryu which very well may be true if A&E is right. Respectfully submitted, Professor Joe Shuras

[kelly keltner]

Thank you Proffesor I was kinda wiped out when I typed that, and have the energy to reply to all the missinformation that was printed on that thread. I talked to Shihan Brown the other day and he had nothing but good things to say about you. I thank you for the time you took to clear up the information on this thread.

kelly

[Karazenpo]

I forgot a few things. I found Dr. William Durbin's website to be highly inaccurate when it comes to anything that has to do with Mitose and Hassan. As far as Nmir Hassan a.k.a. Terry Lee goes, yes, he was a student of Mitose's for about 2-3 months and all that Koga Ha Ryu Ninjitsu training is all bull. Mitose never trained under Seiko Fujita. I'll be back with more information on that shortly.

[Karazenpo]

I forgot a few things. I found Dr. William Durbin's website to be highly inaccurate when it comes to anything that has to do with Mitose and Hassan. As far as Nmir Hassan a.k.a. Terry Lee goes, yes, he was a student of Mitose's for about 2-3 months and all that Koga Ha Ryu Ninjitsu training is all bull. Mitose never trained under Seiko Fujita. I'll be back with more information on that shortly.------

Here's what I was looking for. As some of you know I've been a moderator on the Kajukenbo Cafe for a couple of years now. This is a post I received in regards to a topic I did on James Mitose:

Title: Re:Solving a Mitose Mystery (?)

Post by: Henso on June 22, 2004, 11:54:34 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For factual information on Fujita Seiko and his various arts, my I humbly suggest my site dedicated to his martial arts career, which is collected from independent historical resources: http://fujitaseiko.tripod.com.

In my research I found no evidence that their is or was anyone who learned Fujita's Ninjutsu, and in fact, interviews with him categorically state that he didn't teach the system to anyone. As concerns the matter of Nanban Sato ryu Kenpo-Jutsu, it is not a Kenpo system as is understood currently, but, a grappling system that is related to the famous Seigo ryu, via its branch school, Nanban Ippon ryu.

Please review and comment/critique away. Additionally, any factual information about Fujita that is not present would be appreciated.

Phillip T. Hevener

[Karazenpo]

Thank you Proffesor I was kinda wiped out when I typed that, and have the energy to reply to all the missinformation that was printed on that thread. I talked to Shihan Brown the other day and he had nothing but good things to say about you. I thank you for the time you took to clear up the information on this thread.

kelly

And Thank You also, Kelly!

[GAB]

Hi all you guys that will talk like you have about Hanshi and to think I got a week suspension and I never said anything as bad as what has come out of some of these mouths, and talk about a lack of knowledge..First I would like to thank Professor Joe and Kell, but as far as me well I am and have been in trouble for speaking up at various times but these people, that took the time to say what they did with out any knowledge.. Pretty sad, I have to say for the Moderators and the people involved.. I got into it with Doc over his statements about Hanshi Bruce Juchnik..I have a red mark against me and I see one against Doc, I hope it was the same topic makes me feel better if it is.. Ok are you ready??
It is late and I was going to go to bed until I stumbled on this topic.. Now I will start.. Lets see, Hanshi has written 4 books on the subject.. He has a great web sight go to vivisimo and type in SKSKI, it will give some info. Hanshi will have his yearly Gathering in OR. in September, we will be posting it shortly.. By the way this is his 17th one.. He is internationally known and respected. Yes Thomas Mitose is also involved because it is a hand me down from generation to generation, Martial Art??? Hanshi is the one who felt it should be that way, he even convinced GM Mitose to do it, Father and son were estranged for years in fact.. That is a different story and I will not go into it at this time. The art is *Kosho Shorei Ryu Kempo* *Kosho Ryu Kempo*
There is a reason for that but if you go to the site it will tell you all about it..
Hanshi is a great Martial Artist and that is all I will say regarding that..I have known him for along time about 16 years, most great fighters have a reputation and it is not good to be fighter unless you are in the ring and are making money..Hanshi was and is a fighter, Kumite is a word that they use as far as sparring goes, this is a Japanese art and Okinawan, if you know history about Chuanfa, Kenpo, Karate,Tode then you will know what I am talking about, if not, you won't..Pretty simple. He has been in the arts for 40+ years.. (I started 1959 USMC) only different paths.. Enough for tonight, stand by for more, I will return and continue where I leave off.. Just like some of the old time movies each week has a new installment.. But Iwill be back sooner. I need to sleep also, Night. Regards, G

[Karazenpo]

Wow, a lot of misinformation here. First of all, Kelly is right, Juchnik was never a guard, one of his students was and he put him in touch with Mitose. Secondly Mitose was never a Shinto priest or an ordained minister either-this came out at his trial. Thirdly-work release? Gardening? That's a new one on me. The highly respected Professor Eugene Sedeno also made these visits in question. I have this from phone conversations with the Professor, so this is not heresay. It is true that the guards didn't really supervise these visits because over the years Mitose proved them no problem. The visits were outside on a grass area at a picnic table and Mitose verbalized and sometimes made hand gestures when explaining something. Mostly he would tell them where to look for the information they were seeking. Did Juchnik train Thomas Barros Mitose? Well, Thomas was originally a Joe Halbuna Kajukenbo black belt. I know for a while Juchnik and others attempted to get him involved originally and went over some material but in the end, from what I was told, Thomas was not interested and later did his own thing with his father's art. Now, was he a con man and criminal? I would have to say the jury has long been in on that one. Again, I have first hand knowledge of the trial transcripts and his probation officer's report and there is no doubt in my mind that he was involved in criminal activities along with the murder and extortion he was accused of. Martial arts training and ability? Information on an A&E Investigation called: Hawaii: The Gateway to the Martial Arts (Info from John Bishop), a 92 year old martial art classmate of Mitose who states Mitose studied under Nabura Tanamaha, a first or second Choki Motobu black belt in Hawaii. If this is true then he had Kenpo Karate training, Okinawan Kenpo Karate. Much more has also been uncovered in this investigation. Professor Jaimie Abregana is conducting the investigation. We are waiting on this and also on Shihan Mike Brown, another highly respected martial artist and historian from Rhode Island, not too far from my home, who related to me that he has documentation of Mitose training in Japan and will be releasing it in the near future although it is not under the Yoshida lineage that the Tracy website reports. Shihan Brown has shared some of this information with me. I also had some questions run past Sijo Adriano Emperado, founder of Kajukenbo who also studied with Mitose for a while by my friend Professor Gerry Scott of Hawaii. One of my questions was: Could Mitose have learned the 'surface arts', possibly from a book, had some natural ability, put it together and taught it to unsuspecting Hawaiians? He stated no, that Mitose's ability was that of a master instructor and that the kenpo he taught was believed by the seniors of that time to have been Okinawan in origin but no proof was ever given. Hey, don't shoot the messenger. This is what I have come up with my research. Please bear in mind, I'm not trying to prove or disprove anything about Mitose, I'm just attempting to get at the facts the best I can. So, as I stated at the beginning of my post, some are far off on this Mitose thing. I have seen adds for the Juchnik videos and it appears to me he teaches the traditional Okinawan Kenpo Karate forms as Kosho-Shorei ryu which very well may be true if A&E is right. Respectfully submitted, Professor Joe Shuras

Correction on my above post. The A&E special is entitled: 'The Gateway: Martial Arts in Hawaii', not 'Hawaii: Gateway to the Martial Arts.'

[GAB]

Hi again, up early got to get going but I wanted to say a few more things.

Hanshi, in his early career was involved with many aspects of the arts, along with teaching at several dojos, He was involved with some of the kickboxing events along with FMA, Remy Presas also Angel Cabalas, Was a Tracy man I have seen many different ranks given to him but try and find him in theTracy lineage, he had a fall out with Al Tracy and was pretty much expunged (Mormons that leave the flock have that done to them, EPAK, late EP, and Tracy are both Mormons) I am not sure if Hanshi was a mormon or not but he was expunged. They will say different if confronted..
Hanshi, was teaching a class and talking about Mitose and a student at the class was a Prison Guard at Folsom, said there was an old prisoner at Folsom by that name and Hanshi should go over and check it out.

Hanshi did and met Mitose, knew him for about 4 years tried to get him a new lawyer and an appeal but as things were progressing Mitose died.
Hanshi wrote his first book, about the ordeal and then wrote another book about the man Mitose and how he had affected his life.

The original meet was in the late 70s Mitose died in early 80s, Terry Lee who was the student that did the killing, his Lawyer was an appointed PD and his name was Johnny Cochran. Terry lee rolled over and did a few years, moved back East and changed his name. In arabic his chosen name, means *Panther Assassan or gate keeper* which ever story you read..
Many rumors many lies many different thoughts many opinions. Reminds me of what has happened to EPAK since Ed Parker died..Truly interesting??

Hanshi felt the old man he got to know, and as he said, loved, was a victim, others say, he was a con artist and not good at Kenpo.

Who are you going to believe??? Well Go to Hanshi's web site SKSKI contact, like I said earlier check it out, with a search engine, it is all out there, all you have got to do is seek and you shall find.
Hanshi is going to have his 17th Gathering pretty soon, you can find out if you want to, the web is easy to find lots of stuff, rumors etc. and half truths, or what ever, or ask someone who heard this from someone that knew this guy but forgot his name.

Call Hanshi, he has it listed on his site or the people who monitor it will get to him he isn't into e-mails much, lots of trash talk etc. this event happened between 20/25 years ago he is tired of the hammering, he has been involved in this event and he has written about it and still does.
He gives seminars all over the US and various other countries, he is a busy man. I just recently talked to Patrick McCarthy, I was getting a couple of books about Motobu Choki, He thinks highly of Hanshi, we e-mailed a few times.. when you call it is different, than being annon like the person who started this thread, can we all understand that???

Tracy has his story about Mitose, some believe it others don't EPAK has its story about Chow, but will not go back to Mitose because they say Chow learned from another. Right, Mitose was a teacher in Hawaii he taught Thomas Young and a few others, Chow and a few others, Chow taught Parker and few others, Emperado taught a few others, Leoning taught a few others Gascon taught a few others...

Relate that to Abraham who begat, who begat, who begat, who begat..
Now with out sarcasm, can you see where I am going?
Judaism and Islam both go back to Abraham.. different Mothers of their lineage they go with. But the same Father..A little controversy for you??

Mitose started this Kempo Martial Art in Hawaii, and if it were not for him, what we call Ken/mpo would not be here.. Kempo Mitose, Kenpo Chow..

That is the reason Hanshi went and saw this old man in the prison.. Can you imagine his surprise, can you imagine what was going through Hanshi's mind??
Well he wrote about it, like I say seek, you shall find??

Check it out. seek what the instructor before you sought. Or else, just listen to the Nit pickers.. Mitose told Hanshi, "beware of the nit pickers". Hanshi has documents, so do others, Hanshi has an organization dedicated to the preservation of the memory of GGMJMM. SKSKI are the initials go find out what they mean... Or not..

I am just telling you how Hanshi would put it, if you are interested go to the prison, if not, don't go. What would you have done in his place???

I am Talking about Hanshi Bruce Juchnic..this man who has dedicated his life to this Quest. He will tell you it has been a real ride.. Call him, ask him, who better to talk to then Hanshi?? Doc? I don't think so. Al Tracy? I don't think so. He has his story, Ed had his, Bruce has his. Go to the web site, Go to the Gathering, or not.

Like I said, I just stumbled on to this thread, Hope this helps a little. Or not.. Regards, G

[Karazenpo]

Hi Gary, I've never met or seen Hanshi Juchnik do his kempo but a friend of mine who is a very well respected kempo instructor in New Hampshire, Sensei John Evans, feels his abilities are right up there with the best of them. I also firmly believe and I don't feel it's opinion but fact, that Mitose is responsible for all these Kenpo/Kempo/Kajukenbo offshoots we have today. I've said it once if I said it 100 times, he planted the seed in those early years that others successfully nurtured and cultivated into the many fine systems we practice today. I understand why some would like to cut him out of the lineage because I am also a firm believer, again, I feel this is fact and not opinion, that his (Mitose's) actions were that of serious criminal intent. Did Terry Lee deal his way to a 'get out of jail card' early? Absolutely!, no different than Sammy 'The Bull" and John Gotti but that does not make Mitose any less guilty for his actions. Again, I have the transcripts and a copy of a probation report. Gm. S. George Pesare has a saying about the lineage and history of one's art: "You won't know where you're going to if you don't know where you came from." If you don't believe in lineage, fine, that's your perrogative. I have found that many systems I have explored always believed in lineage except when it comes to the Kenpo/Kempo arts where it is divided and the only reason that I can see is those who do not wish to accept Mitose due to his background. The way I look at it is very simple. If you had a 'great-great' grandfather who was a mass murderer as much as you would be ashamed of him you just can't simply cut him off your family tree and if it were possible to go back in time and abort him, then you wouldn't be here today either! It's just the way it is.
We are all waiting for the A&E report but there is one thing for sure, Mitose set up shop and taught something he called Kenpo Jiu Jitsu in Hawaii during that era. We have no other name, then Professor Henry S. Okazaki, founder of Danzan Ryu Jiu Jitsu, that taught Professor William K.S. Chow anything. Some say Kung Fu but no name has surfaced yet. The only paper trail from Chow led to Professor Thomas Young to James M. Mitose. Like it or not, that's it! Respectfully submitted, Professor Joe Shuras

[Brother John]

Hey Karazenpo-

I think that in Mr. Parker's Infinite Insights books it says that Mr. Chow also studied martial arts with his family....esp. father and uncles.

what about that?

Your Brother
John

[GAB]

Hi Professor Joe, We have talked in the past.. Thank you for the favorable response..Regarding lineage in Kenpo and Kempo, Yes I agree..

Now lets look at the FMA they are extremely proud of the heritage of the forefathers if you wish to call them that, not quite right (Starters of a particular system). Most of them are in glee about the people they killed and how many "duel to the death" they were in, with the sword and dagger, the stick and dagger etc. Pretty bloody. Look at the Samurai, very proud of all the death, I am in favor of the Honorable and sport only or the exercise only because I think when the time to use it you will have gleened enough to help you in the situation of combat if you will, or physcial altercation.

I like the FMA for the stick and the flow and the ability to be involved with out contact and yet learn something that at my age will help me if I have a cane or stick or with out, you still are able to do the flow with your hands.

The guys you read about who do this for their exercise and enjoyment are very long lived it seems at least some of them so I will try and keep the weight off and stay in shape..That alone will help you in combat, have good stamina, better for you all around.

Raymond Tobosa. Tobosa Kali/Escrima System/style, I was reading where he was a student of Fred Lara who in turn was a student of W.K. Chow, who was a student of Thomas Young who was a student of Mitose, he also studied Judo under Richard Takamoto son in law to Henry Okazaki.

He had a varied learning experience with others and not just Killer Arnisadors, I read more and it seems he borrowed the octagon and the 8 path of wisdom from the Budda thinking. Along with a similar looking yin and yang symbol, I Ching, he seems very responsible and not the kill kill of the other systems. Also he studied other noted practioners of the various healing and spiritual Arts. His is a hand down (father to son, brother etc.)..

I am going to have to check it out, I have seen it in the Dojo I am in because of, Kosho Ryu Kempo along with JKD and others..I am told I practice FMA, not just one but many of the ones my Sensei feels are good for me at my age and my mental outlook and it is designed around many things..

I am told it is Kali like Guro Dans and also Eskrima c/k who knows unless it is written or they tell you specifically, I also read about Floro Villabrille is part of the system, It has to be good with these people in it, and I am definetly finding out more about it so I can have what I want.

Since I am very good friends with my Sensei 13+ years I will probabley get a good listen and a talk..Always speak up and try to learn what is right for you and not just what they want to teach, that is why it is so important for eclectic Dojo's..

All I am reading on this system is very close to Kosho Ryu Kempo..
Yes I believe their will be alot of information that will come out of the a&e tv special I am waiting to see it..

Now to get to your and mine in respects to LEO, we are trained by the people, that our higher ups want us to learn to handle altercations in a certain way. Plus we have tools at our disposal, handcuffs, Baton, Firearms, etc. Then some go outside of the Depts training, (after initial learning and probation is over) go to a person who that Department thinks is ok to teach their men and women to use in the street, as we say..

Or they will go to someone they want and might not be in policy we (LEO) have seen the guy or girl go out and find a different firearm or back up not good..
Now that (they the depts) have a lot to offer at least the one I was in, so you have a much better selection for individual preferance and it is still ok within the dept policy, this is good.

Anyway, I will talk later, thanks for the response, Joe, I always enjoy reading your stuff and talking to you..

Waiting for more response from other participants..OK?? Regards , Gary

[Karazenpo]

Hey Karazenpo-

I think that in Mr. Parker's Infinite Insights books it says that Mr. Chow also studied martial arts with his family....esp. father and uncles.

what about that?

Your Brother
John

Hello Brother John, Yes, I have also read about Chow's Kung Fu connection. I have done much indepth research on this and the only thing I can find and this 'allegedly' came from Chow himself is that he had learned some secret Kung Fu moves from his father and grandfather in 'dreams', that being the most repeated connection to date. Never heard uncles just the father and grandfather....but in 'dreams'. The problem with these stories are is when they are repeated enough times over the years and decades without verification they begin to take on a reality of their own and a myth is born and then perpetuated. If you check into this you will draw the same conclusion (of Chow being taught by his father, etc.). The closest thing I've come up with so far is this and I'm reaching a little. Chow had the utmost respect for Professor Henery S. Okazaki. He even took the title of 'Professor' in honor of Okazaki. Okazaki's most influential teacher was Master Wo Chung, a Chinese Kung Fu stylist who taught a system when translated mean't 'Boxing with the intent to kill'. Okazaki so respected Chung that he named the style he founded 'Danzan Ryu' due to the fact this is the name Chung always called the main island of Hawaii (Danzan). We know Chow had this close relationship with Okazaki so perhaps there is some kung fu connection there, however, I'll say this. If you ever saw Chow move there is no mistaking there is a strong kung fu influence there. Sigung John Bishop has a video of Chow on his website, check it out if you haven't seen it yet and let me know what you think. Respectfully, Professor Joe Shuras

[Karazenpo]

Hi Professor Joe, We have talked in the past.. Thank you for the favorable response..Regarding lineage in Kenpo and Kempo, Yes I agree..

Now lets look at the FMA they are extremely proud of the heritage of the forefathers if you wish to call them that, not quite right (Starters of a particular system). Most of them are in glee about the people they killed and how many "duel to the death" they were in, with the sword and dagger, the stick and dagger etc. Pretty bloody. Look at the Samurai, very proud of all the death, I am in favor of the Honorable and sport only or the exercise only because I think when the time to use it you will have gleened enough to help you in the situation of combat if you will, or physcial altercation.

I like the FMA for the stick and the flow and the ability to be involved with out contact and yet learn something that at my age will help me if I have a cane or stick or with out, you still are able to do the flow with your hands.

The guys you read about who do this for their exercise and enjoyment are very long lived it seems at least some of them so I will try and keep the weight off and stay in shape..That alone will help you in combat, have good stamina, better for you all around.

Raymond Tobosa. Tobosa Kali/Escrima System/style, I was reading where he was a student of Fred Lara who in turn was a student of W.K. Chow, who was a student of Thomas Young who was a student of Mitose, he also studied Judo under Richard Takamoto son in law to Henry Okazaki.

He had a varied learning experience with others and not just Killer Arnisadors, I read more and it seems he borrowed the octagon and the 8 path of wisdom from the Budda thinking. Along with a similar looking yin and yang symbol, I Ching, he seems very responsible and not the kill kill of the other systems. Also he studied other noted practioners of the various healing and spiritual Arts. His is a hand down (father to son, brother etc.)..

I am going to have to check it out, I have seen it in the Dojo I am in because of, Kosho Ryu Kempo along with JKD and others..I am told I practice FMA, not just one but many of the ones my Sensei feels are good for me at my age and my mental outlook and it is designed around many things..

I am told it is Kali like Guro Dans and also Eskrima c/k who knows unless it is written or they tell you specifically, I also read about Floro Villabrille is part of the system, It has to be good with these people in it, and I am definetly finding out more about it so I can have what I want.

Since I am very good friends with my Sensei 13+ years I will probabley get a good listen and a talk..Always speak up and try to learn what is right for you and not just what they want to teach, that is why it is so important for eclectic Dojo's..

All I am reading on this system is very close to Kosho Ryu Kempo..
Yes I believe their will be alot of information that will come out of the a&e tv special I am waiting to see it..

Now to get to your and mine in respects to LEO, we are trained by the people, that our higher ups want us to learn to handle altercations in a certain way. Plus we have tools at our disposal, handcuffs, Baton, Firearms, etc. Then some go outside of the Depts training, (after initial learning and probation is over) go to a person who that Department thinks is ok to teach their men and women to use in the street, as we say..

Or they will go to someone they want and might not be in policy we (LEO) have seen the guy or girl go out and find a different firearm or back up not good..
Now that (they the depts) have a lot to offer at least the one I was in, so you have a much better selection for individual preferance and it is still ok within the dept policy, this is good.

Anyway, I will talk later, thanks for the response, Joe, I always enjoy reading your stuff and talking to you..

Waiting for more response from other participants..OK?? Regards , Gary

Thanks Gary, same here!