Stalking

[KenpoTess]

Being stalked is a terrifying experience.

Back about 7 1/2 yrs ago when my ex and I split up.. I was chatting online with a group on IRC.. One man said he grew up in the town next to where I lived, that he knew who I was via supposedly mutual friends. We chatted (always in a group setting) for a month, then I started getting emails from him (he got my email on the internet which I didn't know was even listed at the time) He said he was going to be coming to the area over the Holidays and wanted to meet me.. I didn't think that was a good idea.. just had a'feeling things weren't as they seemed. He grew angry and hurt that I didn't trust him.. I started avoiding that IRC channel. I have a friend up in BC Canada who I was talking to one night and told him about this guy .. Hal ... He told me to call the police if things kept up (emails still occuring.. but I blocked the addy) Now I was getting Snail mails.. The weirdo got my home address off the Net~!! He was sending me lewd pictures with the identifying face cut out.. supposedly of him.. saying he would be at my doorstep Christmas morning..

Christmas Eve night . I was sitting at the computer.. chatting with my BC friend.. when I heard a sound behind me at the windows (very tall vertical windows that opened outwards) I turned quickly as they cracked and a man was coming inside..
Standing and turning quickly I yelled out.. He was only a few feet from me and I stood in terror.. Knowing this was .. Hal.. well over 6'4" and massively built.. He smiled and reached his hand out to my arm.. I was petrified. yet strangely calm ... He looked at the computer screen and saw I was chatting to James.. he frowned and pushed me over to the chair and said..
Tell him you have to go.. make up an excuse.. Shaking.. I typed to James..

I have to sign off.. there's a Hail Storm here and I think the powers going to go out.. Help~!!!

after I hit enter.. Hal reached over and powered off the computer... and spun my chair around facing him.. looming over me .. he just stared .. I started to open my mouth.. and he held his finger up to my lips.. whispering .. no.. don't say a word.. I just want to stand here and look at you... My entire body was shaking.. I was trying to think of some way to get out of there.. but he had me trapped.. for what seemed like an eternity he just stood there.. suddenly Sirens were right outside.. Flashing lights .. Someone was pounding on the front door.. Hal Jolted to action and went to the window.. seeing the police right outside, he grabbed my hair and demanded as to where the back door was located.. dragging me with him I pointed towards the back of the house.. he flung me down and sped out the door.. I got up and opened the front door and the police went after him.. he got away.. running through the neighborhood to his parked car down the road.

I was so out of it.. but when I calmed down .. I asked the policeman how they knew I needed help.... James in B.C. did a search for my local police phone number and called them... because he understood my cryptic message .. Hail storm being Hal was at my house..
I was totally flabbergasted.......

I gave my statement to the police and they continued to search for him.. He was never found ... but a few years later after I moved to Florida.. I got an email from him.. I deleted it and never replied..

I was extremely lucky that I wasn't hurt other than the emotional terror I went through.. And I can't say for sure if any self defense would of helped me or not at that particular time.. he was a massive person with who knows what intent on his mind.. totally unprepared was I for any attack .. Now I sleep with my mini firestorm within reach.. and a shotgun.. I'm not going to ever fear for my life again and I'm not going to let some sicko claim my life..

My Martial arts training that I know now shall benefit me in more than defending.. I'm much more aware of what could happen and how not to let it happen Offensive training :)... and had I known then what I do now.. perhaps the scenario would of changed and he would of been caught.. nobody has the answer to that ..

Just thought I would share.. and Ladies and Guys.. if you ever find yourself in a similar situation.. Make sure you tell everyone you can.. and make a code word.. to alert them that you are in danger..
Protect yourselves!!

Addresses and other personal information is easy to find on the net.. which is pretty scary ..
Ladies.. don't give out pertinent info.. if you live alone.. etc.. Predators prey on learning all they can and They will do anything to do so..



Tess

Stalking Safety Plans (http://www.ncvc.org/gethelp/stalkingsafetyplan/)

Stalking Behavior (http://www.stalkingbehavior.com/)

[Jay Bell]

My ghod, Tess....Absolutely shocking story

[Rich Parsons]

Tess,

I feel for you! Not only to have the strength to survive it, and think quick, yet to also talk about it. :asian:


Remember everyone it goes both ways, I have milder stories of some females that did some crazy things as well.

Be safe

[Elfan]

Thank you for sharring your story.

[Seig]

Remember ladies, Self-Defense training can and does also mean competent fire-arms training.

[Shodan]

Wow!! Thanks for sharing this story with us- very scary. Quick thinking on your friend's part too- good for him!! A good thing you were able to type in that last message to him, eh?

Thanks again-

:asian: :karate:

[KenpoTess]

It was a terrifying experience that I have really been blocking from my thoughts til I started looking into the different ideas for topics for this forum.. Then it flooded back to me.. which I know really is a good thing as blocking it only would manifest itself later at some point in my life.. probably not in a healthy way either.

I said to Seig yesterday after he posted a reply..how I had put it out of my head.. he said to me.. "I hadn't forgotten. .why did you think I trained you so hard in Firearms and Kenpo"?

It's amazing what we forget as far as trauma's that have happened to us in the past.. our minds have a defense of their own~!!


Tess
:asian:

[MA-Caver]

Shocking, terrifying and ... sad story.
I used to think this bumper sticker was funny in a hee hee sort of way: "You can't make someone love you...you can only stalk them and hope for the best." Your story takes the punch out of the punch line.

Traumas like that we want to forget. Then all of the sudden they come racing back unbidden, unwanted, but there.

Thanks for sharing that. That in-of-itself took bravery as well.

Peace :asian:

[LadyDragon]

Outrageous story Tess. I'm glad that you got through it OK. And a major salute to your friend. Good thing he pick up on your signals.

The horror behind this is that unfortunately, many women don't make it out as well as you did from the same situation. I wish that everyone had some kind of training to save themselves from these sick people.

[Ceicei]

Alright....

I will 'fess up. Since I joined MT, I have always said I took up martial arts because I wanted to and because I loved sports. Yes, that is true...but there was a motive that impelled me to take up martial arts.

When I was a sophomore in college (this was back in 1985), I had a boyfriend who apparently was abusive mentally and emotionally (I didn't "see" that at the time).

One day, he invited me over to his apartment to show me some things (he didn't say what). I came over. He said the things were downstairs. I didn't realize then that he had a basement bedroom. It wasn't until he closed the door downstairs and locked it (the lock was on the top edge of the door, not the side edge like most doors are) that I realized I was in trouble.

Suffice it to say it was an attempted rape (I won't go into details here), but I was able to knee him in the groin, grab my stuff, and managed to jump up to unlock the door, ran to my car, and drove in the dark with the headlights off. He followed quickly, and searched all over for me. I took side roads. When I got to my apt, I saw his car there. I knew I couldn't go to my girlfriends' homes as he knew where all of them lived and he would definitely ask around. I ended up spending most of the night in the apt's locked laundromat hiding behind some dryers.

The next day, still very very shaken, I drove around aimlessly and crying, too afraid to go home, too afraid to go to college as I knew he would be there.

One of my dear male friends who took Kenpo saw me and managed to catch my attention. We both pulled over to a parking lot. He talked with me for a long, long, long time. I decided then to take up Kenpo.

I tried dodging my ex-boyfriend for the entire week, staying overnights with other friends that were not part of the people I usually hang out. Tired of not being able to do what I wanted, I decided to try to go home (apt).

The day I came home, I took a shower and he broke into my apt. I was so upset and so furious, that if I had a knife or a gun within reach, I probably would have killed him. I got dressed. When he wasn't looking, I got away from him to my car, but he followed me all the way to the college which was 5 miles away. I was so desperate to get away and so angry that I swerved cutting other drivers off and ran red lights (I'm surprised I hadn't been hit by any cars).

My friend who took martial arts saw me running. He found out why and got his friends together. I am not sure what happened, but my ex-boyfriend quickly left the state.

None of this was ever reported to the police. I was too afraid, too angry, and too messed up emotionally.

Taking up martial arts taught me to stablize myself, gain confidence, overcome fear, and learn to trust others.

It took me a long time to ever be in a serious relationship, but I did finally get married to the greatest guy on earth.

Nevertheless, the best friendships I have are with my Kenpo friends. They cared enough and loved me enough to make me see what I needed to do and saved my life.

- Ceicei

[Jay Bell]

Thank you both for sharing your stories....I'm sure it isn't easy. If any others have stories and are willing to share, please do. This is a learning experiance that can help many others.

[Cruentus]

Wow...pretty scary stuff. Thanks for sharing; it really brings value to the need for women to train in MA.

[KenpoTess]

Thanks for sharing Ceicei~!! *hugs*

Too many people are victims and I'm glad you are safe~!! People helping people is the only way any of the atrocities can be stopped.
I know when someone mentions the fact I have a gun, and comments. . "could you actually shoot someone"? I don't have to think twice.. if someone I care about or myself is in a life threatening situation.. no hesitation.. yes I could and could I physically put them out of my misery without the use of a gun. yes...
No ifs ands or buts about it... Someone I love, or someone who's trying to kill them or me.. no contest.

My hat's off to you my friend~!!!

Tess

[Ceicei]

Tess,

Thank you kindly.

Regarding firearms, I am no stranger to them. My father was in the military (Air Force) and owned several guns and rifles. He made sure us kids had firarms training with rifles through the Police Athletic League (P.A.L.) that had such programs for kids.

A few years after I married, I started working as an instructor at the college. Most of my classes were night time. My husband travelled extensively on business and would be gone several days. My children were very young.

I became more confident because of my MA training (it gave me the mental preparedness and willingness to fight). I felt ready for a gun. I obtained a concealed carry permit and got a 89P Ruger. My instructor was a police lieutenant and he made sure I understood the laws, the reality of deadly force, and had scenario drills. The training spanned over a few weeks. My gun gave me problems (hand sizing and handling), so he let me use his service gun for my training (.45 ACP Glock). As a result after the training, I got myself a 9mm Glock. The training was more than what I needed to qualify for a permit, but I wanted that very thorough training.

I saw my ex-boyfriend again years later and surprisedly, I felt no more anger or hate towards him. It didn't bother me any more to look at him in the eyes and talk with him. Apparently, martial arts helped me over the years to work through my anger issues. At the time I saw him, he was married. She eventually divorced him because of domestic violence and sexual abuse.

- Ceicei

[KenpoTess]

Ceicei.. that's so good about not feeling hate towards your ex.. as I have learned .. hate means you care still.. I hate nobody who's hurt me or mine in my past.. and there have been more than I care to remember.. Feeling Indifferent is so much easier to deal with emotionally :)

Bravo to you ~!

Tess

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by KenpoTess
Ceicei.. that's so good about not feeling hate towards your ex.. as I have learned .. hate means you care still.. I hate nobody who's hurt me or mine in my past.. and there have been more than I care to remember.. Feeling Indifferent is so much easier to deal with emotionally :)

Bravo to you ~!

Tess


Tess,

I still crack jokes about my mistakes with my ex. Otherwise I found it counter productive to think or care or hate anything about her. I refused to give her that much of my time :D

Unless of course it is to crack a joke and make myself and others laugh. ;)

[LadyDragon]

Just a quick comment for women out there.

Ceicei, I know that in your post, you put that you never alerted the authorities as to what was happening. This is one of the many reasons why some of these stalkers get away with as much as they do. If no one knows of your ordeal. Or the type of person that your stalker is, how is any one going to be able to prevent that person from stalking someone else in the future.

Many of those who are victims of stalkers never say anything because they're afraid. But at the same time, that fear should make your survival instincts kick in. Fight or flight will eventually kick in. But if no one knows whats going on, how is anyone going to know whether to help you or not. And what if its to late by the time they do figure out something is wrong?

[Ceicei]

Originally posted by LadyDragon
Just a quick comment for women out there.

Ceicei, I know that in your post, you put that you never alerted the authorities as to what was happening. This is one of the many reasons why some of these stalkers get away with as much as they do. If no one knows of your ordeal. Or the type of person that your stalker is, how is any one going to be able to prevent that person from stalking someone else in the future.

Many of those who are victims of stalkers never say anything because they're afraid. But at the same time, that fear should make your survival instincts kick in. Fight or flight will eventually kick in. But if no one knows whats going on, how is anyone going to know whether to help you or not. And what if its to late by the time they do figure out something is wrong?

Well, my martial arts friends knew. They were the ones who sent him packing out of state.

Think about it... Part of the reasons some females do not report to the authorities, especially in cases of actual rape, they are subject to not being able to shower off immediately and have to face the indignity of "rape kits", plus the questioning of authorities (and some questions they do ask are sometimes presented as if its OUR fault it happened), and if this ever goes to trial, the ordeal of testifying and defense lawyers who try to dredge up everything to discredit you.

Its no wonder that many rapes go unreported....

I am aware though that services are better now than they used to be. Ilm aware that there are now advocates that help and guide those who experience such terrifying situations.

These services weren't really available back then nor were there as competent personnel.

- Ceicei

[LadyDragon]

I can see your point. But I would just hate to think that after going through that kind of ordeal, that I wouldn't be able to stop that person from being able to do it to someone else.

[kenpo12]

I'm just glad you both came through those situations ok. That's horrible. Since I haven't been though that I can't add a whole lot except for this, dogs are great warning devices. You can't get within 30 feet of my house without one of my dogs sounding off a warning. Even if they know who it is they'll let us know someone is outside. I don't think anyone has ever had to use our doorbell now that I think about. hahhaha But seriously, a watchdog is great for at least giving you heads up before someone is standing in front of you in your house.

just my 2 cents,

Matt

[KenpoTess]

Originally posted by kenpo12
I'm just glad you both came through those situations ok. That's horrible. Since I haven't been though that I can't add a whole lot except for this, dogs are great warning devices. You can't get within 30 feet of my house without one of my dogs sounding off a warning. Even if they know who it is they'll let us know someone is outside. I don't think anyone has ever had to use our doorbell now that I think about. hahhaha But seriously, a watchdog is great for at least giving you heads up before someone is standing in front of you in your house.

just my 2 cents,

Matt

Thanks Matt :)
Yes I now have my 'guard dog' who has a very menacing growl and bark.. plus she does Kenpo very well *G*

[Ceicei]

Originally posted by kenpo12
....dogs are great warning devices. You can't get within 30 feet of my house without one of my dogs sounding off a warning.

I've always owned dogs. The only time I didn't was during my college years because student housing didn't allow pets.

My experience with the ex-boyfriend breaking in would have happened differently had student housing allowed college students to keep dogs [and I would have preferred a dog more than some of the roommates I have had in the past...]

I now own a black lab and a red siberian husky.

Anyway, I think that because of all this that happened to me, I have ended up a stronger and happier person through martial arts.

- Ceicei

[Ceicei]

Originally posted by kenpo12
....dogs are great warning devices. You can't get within 30 feet of my house without one of my dogs sounding off a warning.

I've always owned dogs. The only time I didn't was during my college years because student housing didn't allow pets.

My experience with the ex-boyfriend breaking in would have happened differently had student housing allowed college students to keep dogs [and I would have preferred a dog more than some of the roommates I have had in the past...]

I now own a black lab and a red siberian husky.

Anyway, I think that because of all this that happened to me, I have ended up a stronger and happier person through martial arts.

- Ceicei

[hardheadjarhead]

Tess and Ceicei,

This thread is somewhat old, but I'm glad I clicked on it.

Those were VERY powerful and moving accounts of your experiences. Thanks for sharing.

Regards,

Steve Scott

[KenpoTess]

Steve, Thanks :)

[Ceicei]

Thank you, Steve.

- Ceicei

[hardheadjarhead]

You're both more than welcome.

You've given me (and others undoubtedly) a number of insights concerning training women in the martial arts and developing their self defense skills.

And Tess brought me up short when I needed it...right as I barged into this forum for the first time.

Keep it up, both of you.

Regards,

Steve

[edhead2000]

I know this thread has been dead for about 2 months now, but since I'm new and just read it, I'd like to reply. First I'd just like to start by introducing my. Hey guys, I'm Erin. I've been quietly reading for a little while now, but feel this is a topic that I also need to address.

First, to Ceicei and KenpoTess, I really appreciate you both sharing your stories. I know how hard that can be, especially the first time you share it with someone. As a survivor (no, I don't consider myself a victim) of sexual abuse who didn't fight back for any number of reasons, I definitely admire your courage, strength, and quick-wit, which I know is the reason that something worse didn't happen to you both.

I agree that martial arts training is imperative to women, however, I know that after the fact, a room full of guys was the last place I would want to be. The need for self-defense really came back to me when I went away to college. And finally, 10+ years after the incident, I'm finally starting my martial arts training. Better late than never! :) I will admit though that walking into that room for the first time and seeing 20-30 guys who I knew could attack me (I know they never would) was a pretty nerve-wracking and scary feeling. I believe that martial arts training is incredibly therapeutic and healing for anybody (male or female) who has been abused. I think the self-defense techniques are great, but I also believe that the self-esteem, confidence, and physical power learned through martial arts is just as important in helping one heal.

Just a suggestion from me and I'm sure a lot of you do this already. If you see a new women join your MA classes, make a point to talk to her and make her feel at ease. This goes for all the guys and girls out there. It's intimidating to walk into an established class where people already have connections and friends, but I find it 10 times more intimidating when the majority of those people are guys. I'm not saying that every women who does martial arts has been abused, but I know it was a big factor in my decision to start martial arts. And I know it was a factor in Ceicei's decision, so I'm sure many other women who have been through similar situations are thinking about taking up martial arts.

I haven't had any formal firearms training due to the fact that the opportunity has not presented itself to me, but it is something I'd like to do in the future. So that's just some of my thoughts on the topic. Thanks for listening! :)

Erin

[Ceicei]

Welcome, Erin! I'm glad you came to join us here.

You have courage, especially if all the men there in the class were strangers. It helps to get a friend, even a new one, to start out.

Your suggestion to befriend newcomers immediately is very, very good. We may never know right away their original reasons why they come--a friendship usually make things easier.

If you feel able to, perhaps share your story. Your story will help many others although sometimes it may feel like...

...I was recalling how I felt when I posted my story here a few months ago. I thought I was already over my experience. Posting it brought back all the feelings I had buried, although as I had mentioned, I no longer felt anger or hate. The feeling of fear associated with the experience--I guess that never went away.

I'm glad you are now taking up martial arts.

- Ceicei

[KenpoTess]

Hi Erin :) Welcome to the Board~!

You're so right .. it is intimidating to walk into all that testosterone *G*... I did it back in Florida when Seig dragged me to class I was training with 99% males.. but soon learned I was in a pretty safe environment.. though on a side note.. my first class I was doing backfist drills with a guy 6'5" and had the bones in my hand shattered.. (different thread) .. Luckily now at our school.. we are prettily even male/female ratio...though we are a very tightly knit 'family'... when new females start.. we try and make them feel relaxed and at ease :)

Great to have you aboard.. and if you ever get up to Shepherdstown.. Stop in~!
Tess

[edhead2000]

Ceicei and KenpoTess, Thanks so much for the welcome.

Ceicei, I certainly don't mind sharing my experience. After my fifth grade year in school we moved to a new neighborhood and it was the fall of my sixth grade year that this started (I was 10 at the time). Both of my parents worked fairly long hours (at least longer than I was in school) so I went to a neighbor's house before and after school. This family went to our church and she kept other kids throughout the day. However, she had a teenage son who apparently looked at me as some sort of "play toy" and tried to do almost everything with me. This went on for months until I finally convinced my parents to let me stay with one of my best girlfriends. They finally let me stay home by myself, but being an only child they were overprotective.
The moments I looked forward to most were when the other children would come, because that meant I was safe. He would only do these things while we were alone. It was an incredibly terrifying and frightening time, never knowing what he was going to do to me on any given day. I prayed for Friday's (my dad was off on Friday's and I didn't have to go there) and basically just tried to survive the best I could.

I definitely understand and support you Ceicei in your decision not to file charges. It's so easy for someone to tell me what I should have done, but until you've experienced those feelings yourself (and I pray none of you do), you don't know what it's like. I also didn't file any charges for a number of reasons. One I was so young I'm not sure I was totally aware of what was going on myself. I knew it was wrong, but at the same time I wondered if this is what it was supposed to be like. Maybe this was supposed to happen to me.......maybe it happened to all girls my age. I really didn't know any better. I also felt guilty, dirty, and betrayed. This was something I definitely didn't want anyone to know about. What if people didn't believe me? What if they didn't want to be my friend anymore? So many things raced through my head. I was even afraid that I'd get in trouble for not stopping it. I'd always tell him no, but he never stopped. I was convinced (rightly so or not) that he'd only hurt me more if I fought back or told anyone. I thought this was just something I had to take.

Looking back, I think filing charges would have almost been more traumatic than the actual incident. I agree that it's a very selfish thing to do, but there was no way I was going to relive that hell. I realize that makes me sound like a self-centered person in that I wasn't thinking of anyone else that he could hurt, but at the time, I really didn't care. I just wanted out of that situation. Also, the fact that he was a minor.....I doubt any action would have been taken and if it had, it would have just been erased when he turned 18. I don't regret this decision even now.

It was two years (after it happened) before I finally confided in a friend of mine this secret and my parents finally found out then too. Unfortunately, they didn't do anything about it and I was left to deal with it on my own. I do agree with Ceicei that I don't harbor any negative feelings towards this guy. Hate accomplishes nothing and I believe you're only able to truly heal after you've reached a point where you can forgive the person. I do believe that you can totally get past it and be able to live a happy life. It's not something that bothers me like it used to. I've been able to accept the fact and move on with my life. But I'm not sure if you can ever entirely "get over" it......it will have always happened and it's always in the very back of your mind, even if you don't think about it. I think you echoed this fact in your post Ceicei when you mentioned how posting about it brought back the old feelings. Personally, they tend to come back to me at the most unexpected times. Something will jog my memory and send those feelings rushing back. It's those times when I just have to remind myself that it's in the past and I'm safe now and then I'm able to move on. I think one of the most important parts to getting on with my life has been to ability to share with other people who have been through similar situations. Talking with these people has been of tremendous help. So that's my story. Any questions, feel free to ask me! :)

On another note, there's only one other female in my martial arts classes. My instructor told me that another female was joining soon, so hopefully I can develop a new friendship with these girls or any of the guys as well. :)

Tess, you'll have to make Chad bring me one night. He's the one who introduced me to this board! :)

Erin

[Ceicei]

Erin,

Thank you for sharing. That's a tough situation.

((HUGS)) For what's it worth, we've pulled through. We've become stronger.

- Ceicei

[edhead2000]

Strength........most definitely. Right now I like to describe my journey and knowledge as a wonderfully empowering experience. :)

Erin

[Chronuss]

Originally posted by edhead2000
He's the one who introduced me to this board! :)

hey...don't blame me!

[edhead2000]

Originally posted by Chronuss
hey...don't blame me!


And why not? I thought it was always your fault! :D

[Chronuss]

no...it's always Kathie's fault!...damn...you are new here...:rofl:

[KenpoTess]

Great to hear Erin :)

It only keeps getting better every day~!

[Chronuss]

Originally posted by KenpoTess
getting better every day~!

only cause they pick on me....:(

[edhead2000]

Originally posted by Chronuss
only cause they pick on me....:(

If I couldn't pick on you then who could I pick on?? :) And it can't be Kathie's fault......I don't even know Kathie. I only know you, therefore, it's all your fault. I love deductive reasoning!

Erin

[KenpoTess]

Let's keep things on topic please :)

Chad .. take it to the Bar and grill or else ;)

Tess

[Chronuss]

...she's always so mean to me.........:wah:



I love deductive reasoning!

you just haven't been here long enough....you'll soon learn that doesn't work....:D

[edhead2000]

Uh oh Chad.........you're in big trouble now. I hope Tess gives you a good beating! And what will she say when she finds out that you won't take me to your studio?? hehehehehe.


And before I get a beating as well.......I apologize for posting this post before I post it. :)

[edhead2000]

I just wanted to add something that I thought of tonight. A friend of mine at work was pulled over for speeding and during the "information getting" process he asked for her phone number. Not really suspecting anything, she gave it to him. However, he started calling her and even stopped by her apartment a few times. It eventually stopped, but it was still scary for her.

I know that 99.9% of police officers or other authority figures would never do anything like this, but I just wanted to remind you guys that it can happen. We're all human, after all. So if you don't feel comfortable giving out certain information, you can always question it. Trust your instinct.

Erin

[theletch1]

I know that 99.9% of police officers or other authority figures would never do anything like this, but I just wanted to remind you guys that it can happen. We're all human, after all. So if you don't feel comfortable giving out certain information, you can always question it. Trust your instinct. Very true, we have several officers on the city force here in Roanoke who have been convicted of everything from DUI to spousal abuse. The police are not in some higher plane of morality (although many try to be). When you get pulled over, if you feel that instinctual tingle that something is not right then put on your four way signals and drive to a lighted area. This is usually acceptable to a judge if you have any doubts about the unit pulling you over. Remember, there have been many instances where criminals have impersonated officers to get their victims. Once you are pulled over, get a badge number even if you don't get a ticket. You don't even have to ask for it. Just look at the badge and write it down afterward if you don't want the officer to know that you've gotten it. Yes, the police will save you butt 99..9% of the time but that .1% is enough to do you in.

[Ceicei]

Originally posted by theletch1
if you feel that instinctual tingle that something is not right

Excellent advice. That tingle usually can be trusted. I do know of some people who over-react when they feel the tingle (it's usually because of some relatively recent trauma when issues haven't been worked through). Still, it's better to be safe by listening to the feeling than it is to be sorry by ignoring.


99..9% of the time but that .1% is enough to do you in.


That's all it takes, just one to ruin it for the rest. It does take guts sometimes to realize not all do and resist the urge to paint them all with a broad brush of suspicion.

- Ceicei

[edhead2000]

Originally posted by theletch1
Remember, there have been many instances where criminals have impersonated officers to get their victims.

That's an excellent point. In fact, that was the subject of the show Third Watch last night, which is what inspired me to write that post.
Being from Lynchburg, your story about officers in Roanoke really hits home. Do you have any other tips or words of advice. What are some things that would immediately tip us off to a potentially bad situation? What sorts of things would an officer never ask or never do? I don't know much about this area, so maybe you could help us all out here. Instinct is great and I believe that it should be listened to, but it's not always 100% accurate as Ceicei pointed out. Thanks.

Erin

[dearnis.com]

What are some things that would immediately tip us off to a potentially bad situation? What sorts of things would an officer never ask or never do? I don't know much about this area, so maybe you could help us all out here. Instinct is great and I believe that it should be listened to, but it's not always 100% accurate as Ceicei pointed out. Thanks.

I'll give a detailed answer tomorrow (too tired tonight; long day). It really can be hard to tell; on my department we have our cars 24/7. Because I am in an on-call position I drive mine off duty. A lot. Because of my assignment I have no top light bar, just window visor and grill lights. At least 1/3 of the time I am working I am in BDUs; I generally look less presentable off duty.
Do I sound skechy yet?
:D

Now, that being said, if someone has provoked me to stop them while I am not working they no doubt aware that they were driving like a complete idiot..... Aside from that I suppose the only give-away that I am legit is that if I am walking up to a car out of uniform is that you see a badge, and I am clearly wearing body armor...oh, wait, the Shield blew that look...

Ok, everyone's mood lightened yet? I will post a serious answer tomorrow.

Chad

[theletch1]

I'm not a police officer myself. I'm a truck driver. There are many officers on this board who can give detailed info. Most of what I know is what was given to me by officers that I train with. When you've been pulled over lock your door, roll down the window, do NOT turn off your engine. A real officer will never try to open your car door during a routine traffic stop. If they want you out of the vehicle they will ask you to step out while they are standing back far enough to give themselves some reaction time. Again, I'm not an officer myself so I'll digress and let the pros fill you in.

[dearnis.com]

Last thought for the night....
There are no routine traffic stops. Statistically (although we have beaten crime stats to death on another thread....) I am more likely to be hurt or killed on a car stop than anywhere else.
More tomorrow.

[dearnis.com]

OK, if you are stopped by a cop.....
First, know the difference b/t "stop" and "get out of my way, someone needs my help" Cruiser coming out of no where with full special effects means (usually) get out of the way. Just do it; you wouldn't want someone messing around keeping me from getting to your loved ones (sorry, pet peeve).
A routine stop...eg marked/semi marked car car, officer in uniform (although more and more departments are using uniformed officers in unmarked cars for traffic enforcement, car should still be the primary police vehicle in the area....but this varies. At times I drive a marked Explorer; I know Washington State Patrol used at least 1 unmarked 5-series bmw for highway enforcement)
Find a safe place to pull over- dont stop in the middle of a windy country road. A broad shoulder, lit, is fine. (I normally do not turn my lights on until there is a suitable place to stop..)
Stay in your car; the officer will come to you. Jumping out puts the officer on the defensive and sets a bad tone. When you are ordered back into your car and you argue you have made a bad situation worse.
Why? We dont have crystal balls. I dont know, until I find out in my time and in my way, that you are a decent person.
The officer will come to you. Forget TV. Put your hands on the steering wheel, at night turn your dome light on, and sit there. This will relax the officer and help you (by help I mean make a major ticket more likely to become a minor ticket or a warning).
When the officer contacts you he (read he/she if you like; I hate the expression) be polite; but expect the same of them. You should be asked for license, registration, insurance. You may be told why you are being stopped; if you are asked if you know the speed limit on the road that is a clue as to why you were stopped!
If you don't have ID, or are in someone elses car, the process will get longer. You will be asked a whole bunch of questions. Why? Cause I now have to look you up in the computer. why lots of questions? Cause in my experience 60% of folks without any ID are lying about who they are to conceal a warrant or suspended license. (HINT: If you are old enough to drive carry ID!)
You may be told that your plates are expired, or come up suspended in the computer. This is a valid reason to stop you; yes, even if DMV messed up (yes, it happens). If, after I do about 5 minutes of computer checking, I'll tell you go to DMV, get a notice that screwed up, and go to the courthouse where the judge will drop this. Sorry for the inconvenience, speak to DMV.
Maybe you were stopped for a headlight out; it is a saftey issue; wouldn't you rather know??
Dont ask for or demand a warning; don't argue with the officer. Politely ask if they can do anything to help you out.
If you were wrong be big enough to admit it; sign your paperwork, and head on your way. We (people, not cops) violate traffic laws every day. Sometimes we get caught.
If you honestly believe the officer to be in error, the place to argue is in court, not the side of the road. If the officer does not explain it to you, politely ask how you get a court date.
That should be the end of the encounter.


Now, do cops have bad days. Yes. Can cops be unprofessional? yes. Will this advice minimize discomfort on most traffic stops? Yes. The Officer's name is on the paperwork; if you feel he was unprofessional call the agency involved and ask to speak to a supervisor.

Next post will look at reasons to deviate from the above.

DISCLAIMER: Doesn't mean you wont get a ticket!

[dearnis.com]

Lets suppose lots of cars roll up and you are ordered out at gunpoint..... DO WHAT YOU ARE TOLD. Is there a mistake? Probably. What could it be? Hmmm....did you report your car stolen, then find it and never unreport it? It happens. Could a robbery have just taken place, suspects fled in a green explorer tag #ABCD 1235....and you happen to be driving a slightly darker green, 1 year newer explorer tag #ABDC 1325? It happens.
These types of mistaken identity are cleared up quickly (usually 10 minutes or so) and, when I have been involved, involve a step by step explaination of what happened, why it happened, and a sincere aplology. Not an apology for me screwing up mknd, but an apology for an innocent person being caught in a bad situation.


Now, lets take the off-duty stop I joked about last night. If I am provoked to stop someone when I am not working it means they are way out of line. Like 25+ over the limit, weaving through traffic, etc. You know, the driver who makes you say where is a cop when you need one! If I am out of uniform I am required to display a badge and have my agency credential availible. Once things are calm I will display ID on request.

Now, about bogus lights. If you are pulled over my a dark colored 2002 crown vic with a serious strobe array on the dash, visors, and grill it is probably legit. If you see an old beater with a 1970's dirty harry bubble light on the dash or the roof....I doubt it. Know what goes on in your area; there are at times serial police impersonaters. It happened when I was living in New Orleans, and the department issued several press releases about what to do. Know what color lights cops in your area use. Some places red if fire; if there is blue in the array it is police; other places are the reverse. No ryhme or reason that I know of.

On this note if someone comes to your door claiming to be a cop, and they are not in uniform, ask to see ID before you let them in. Detectives usually wear suits and knock w/ ID in hand.

This being said, if you live in a bad area, and there is an active street crimes/drug task force/whatever, the rules are different.

What about being asked out of your car on a stop? Be honest; have you been drinking? Could you have missed a court date? Does someone else have access to your car and could they have done something stupid with it?
Did the officer follow you with lights on for miles before you stopped? Are more cops rolling in?

[dearnis.com]

About Cops...
I can only speak for those I know. There have been comments in this thread about departments I am not familiar with, so I have no comments.
However, be aware that...
a DUI may or may not cost a cop his job. Just like anyone else.
a domestic violence conviction will cost a cop his job. DV conviction = person prohibited to possess firearms or ammunition. End of story.

I've wandered a bit off topic, but hopefully have answered some of the questions that came up.

If you are really interested in learning how your local agencies work check and see if what is called a citizens police academy is offered. these courses run 10-15 weeks, 1 night a week, and are designed to introduce civic leaders and involved citizens to what the departments really do. There is no cost, but you must apply, go through a screening process, and be selected. I recommend that anyone serious about self defense and personal protection, and especially any instructor, seek out this kind of training if only to have a better understanding of what the threats really are in your area.

Gang, if I missed anything, or if there is anything else you want me to cover let me know and I will try; I hope this helps out.

[Rich Parsons]

Two incidents to tell you about.

The First being right after I was married, Single now ;), I was driving the wife's car to work as mine was in the shop. It was a 55 MPH zone and Was complaining about the guy in front of me only doing 55 and would not get out of the left lane. Highway was divided highway/expressway. A car in teh right was able to get by the blocker and then speed up. As all three of us crossed over a bridge on the other side was the county police who were all lined up with one guy registering. An officer pulled out and motioned for all of us to pull over. DId I mention he was in a V8 Camaro? I pulled over, and the other two kept going. I figured they would dispatch one of the others lines up to come talk to me. After about 5 minutes (Two songs ending) I started the car back up and looked to see if anyone was coming and proceeded on back to work. About two miles up the road the officer was talking very agitatedly with one of the other car drivers. He saw me and motioned I should pull over. As I was in the left lane and almost on top of him I had to get over and stop. This meant I was in front of him. I waited again. About three minutes (another complete song) one fo the cars took off and the officer jumped in his vehicle to follow. I waited for another two songs, and still no back up came to get me. So I once again proceded. He had the runner pulled over, and was handcuffing the person. He looked up and waved at me and I pulled over for the third time. He then finished with this other guy, and proceded to walk up to my vehicle. He asked for Driver's license and Registration and Insurance. I had hands onte steering wheel and the paperwork for he car in my lap in an envelope. Well the paperwork was all out of date, by days, and all in my ex-wife's maiden name. I explained to the officer and he just smiled and laughed, and told me to get home and get the current paperwork into the car, as I had the last two years present. No ticket issued, because as he said, I had pulled over three times for him with out giving him any troubles.

The second incident was going down the road in a 70 MPH zone and I was doing 75 MPH with the rest of traffic. And just like every day I passed an unmarked car doing 65 MPH, the speed was about 72 MPH. After passing I got over to allow some others travelling faster to proceed. He then turned on a Blue singel light on his dash. Blue lights are normal Police in my area. Single dash lights are not. Yet, I had seen his uniform while he was in the car for months. So, I pulled over in front of a Truck inspection site. Note: This had other officers in those buildings, so I was being safe. He walked up and asked for all the paperwork. As I was looking it up, I saw that my TAGS for the Plate were still stapled to my registration. It had been raining the day I got them. I said to myself, "God am I stupid." The officer become agitated and upset and demanded what did I say? I pulled the registration clear of the envelope and repeat and clear voice, "GOD, Am I Stupid!" The officer smiled and said have a nice day and put them when I get to work. Did I tell you that it was February and this was 4-5 months after I had picked up the tags.

Moral of the story, keep upto date paperwork in your car. And also speak clearly and do not mumble and say things that the officer may think is directed towards him.

Once Again the Dash Light was years ago and I have not seen one since then really.

:asian:

[edhead2000]

I apologize to the Mods for deviating off subject with the police officer and safety bit. Perhaps I should have started a new thread. However, I do feel that this is important information for everyone, but especially for women. I also don't want anyone who wanted to post a reply on stalking to be afraid to........please do.

Thanks for all the information guys, it has been incredible helpful. Especially what you've had to offer, dearnis.com. Having someone on the other side of the story is great. Theletch1, don't be afraid to post your experiences on here. I don't think it matters what your profession. If you have a story or some advice that could benefit everyone, please share.

The first (and only) time I was pulled over, I really had no clue what to do. I was nervous because I thought I might say or do the wrong thing and my mind was racing. Of course my incoherence and fumbling around might have tipped him off that I was hiding something, when in all reality I was just in shock. I answered his questions honestly.....yes, I was going shopping, not to the hospital. :) and yes my cruise was set on 70, but I was going down a hill and we all know that cruise speeds up when you go down a hill. I just handed him all the papers in my glove compartment and told him it should all be in there. I was too nervous to actually fumble through them and find the ones he needed. He actually let me off on an equipment violation (defective speedometer) which was a substantially reduced fine, no points on my license, and no increase in my auto insurance. So I definitely got lucky. But needless to say, I just kinda froze and wasn't sure what I should do. So thanks for the advice. Although I don't plan on being pulled over again, I'm sure it will come in handy if I ever am.

I do still have a few questions. One: what does an officer look for in a pack of cars if he is to pull only one over? I was in a pack of cars and the officer chose only me, even though the guy behind me also pulled over (he told him he could go). Several people have told me that is was because I was young and female. Some others say it's because my car is "noticeable" -- being that I have lots of stickers on the back of it, making my car unique. Others have said that officers will pull over certain types of cars first -- an officer would rather pull over a z3 than a family sedan. I know you can only speak for yourself and the people you know, but is there anything that would make you pull over one car rather than another?

Two: I live in what might be called a city, however, there are lots of back roads and roads that lead to the middle of nowhere. If I were to be traveling down one of these roads in the middle of the night and a cop came up behind me with his lights on, how long could I drive (with my flashers on) to a safe place? There's no way I would pull over on the side of the road in the middle of the night, in the middle of nowhere (no other cars). Some of these places have gas stations that aren't 24 hours and really no place that would be open at 2 am. Is it appropriate to drive to an area where I feel safe (well lit and populated) even if that area is an hour away? Are there any rules on this? Any socially acceptable norms? I'm sure I'd never be in this situation, but if I was, I'd probably keep driving until I found a gas station or restaurant that was still open at a late hour.

Thanks
Erin

[Ceicei]

Erin,
I don't think you were out of line to bring up the issue of police impersonators. Some of those impersonators can be serial stalkers. This would be in line with the thread.

You asked to know how to tell the difference.

Although it doesn't happen often, it is good to understand and know what an impersonator and a legitimate officer would do and what we can do.

- Ceicei

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by edhead2000
I apologize to the Mods for deviating off subject with the police officer and safety bit. Perhaps I should have started a new thread. However, I do feel that this is important information for everyone, but especially for women. I also don't want anyone who wanted to post a reply on stalking to be afraid to........please do.

Thanks
Erin

Erin,

In My mind, knowing the what to look for when being pulled over helps women and even men, in opening their eyes and paying attention, and maybe just maybe avoid a bad situation, including being stalked by a police impersonator. Yes, it is a stretch. Yet, I see the connection. So, no worries from my end.

:asian:

[dearnis.com]

Point 1

guy behind me also pulled over (he told him he could go). Several people have told me that is was because I was young and female. Some others say it's because my car is "noticeable" -- being that I have lots of stickers on the back of it, making my car unique. Others have said that officers will pull over certain types of cars first -- an officer would rather pull over a z3 than a family sedan. I know you can only speak for yourself and the people you know, but is there anything that would make you pull over one car rather than another?
Dpends on speed measurement devise. With Laser you can target one car. With Radar you cant. I can get the lead car, or the fastest moving of 2 or 3. That's it. And I have the state of the art as far as being able to dial out crossing or opposite direction traffic. You got a reduced ticket because he knew he'd lose in court.
My personal policy- If I stop you you are 95% likely to get a ticket. BUT I don't issue tickets I cant win in court.
As far as picking cars, I dont distinguish on moving violations. There are signs which will lead to run tags and so on. Driver appearance is not one, but driver behavior is.

As to how far you can go; after about 1 minute you are out on the air as a vehicle refusing to stop. Then everyone is coming to you.
From a traffic enforcement perspective while I do set up on windy roads, I have my spots picked so that there are safe areas to pull over (because what is dangerous to you in the car is much worse for me out of it!)
Now, in fairness, I probably think about this more than most cops.
And yes, you may well have been singled out for being a young female. It does happen.
(not that I resort to such things; I look so good in uniform I have to beat the women off with a stick....ok, not really. Rich and Steve have seen me in uniform...I wont get away with that.)

[The Boar Man]

This story was passed onto me from my mother from what happened to a daughter of a friend she knew. I pass it on here because I think it shows how sick some people can be and what people (females) victims of a stalker can face.

The parents left their daughter and their young son at home while they went away for the weekend or something. The daughter was probably in her early 20's and the boy was in early teens. While home alone during the day/dusk the boy thought someone came into the house, he searched and he didn't check one room. But he was afraid enough that he left the house and went to a friends to spend the night since the daughter wouldn't get home to later in the evening after work.

When she came home a man met her in a hallway and she fled to her dining room (breakfast nook area) where there was a glass table top. She shoved the top off of the table at him and managed to let her dog in the sliding glass door and the attacker fled.

One year later she was leaving (I think her excercise class) when he approached her again in the parking lot and told her he had her brother and if she got in the car with him he'd let her go. I think he made her drive to another part of the metroplex to get alcohol cause at the time the area was dry except you could buy drinks in a club. Anyway from the beer store he took her back to another city outside of the occupied area onto some farm roads where he made her stop the car.

As she tried to find out why this guy was doing this he told her cause he loved her, she told him she never met him and he replied yes we have you served me a drink (she worked at a club/resturant or something as a waittress). Anyway this guy fell in love with her because she served him a drink a year before.

Well when she didn't return his love he upped the ante and had her undress and tied her up (restrained her somehow) when a car came down the road which upset his plans as the girl used the distraction to get away from him again and run out to the road to the surprise of the kids driving their car down the road. Imagine seeing this frantic girl undressed and restrained in the road running from a car.

They went and got help (from their parents house down the road) and they return with a shot gun shooting it in the air to scare the people in the car away. I think they thought they were partying, little did they know they probably saved the girls life as they found her in some bushes or something but the guy disapeared.

I was living in another city then (when the 2nd attack occured)but I was at home when the first one took place. When I asked how the people where doing a couple of years later she told the rest of the story. To this day I don't think the guy was ever caught.

Mark

[The Boar Man]

In my previous post I told the story of a stalker. However for years I always thought of the guy as a rapist first and a stalker secondary. Due to the attack first at the house and then when he tried to subdue her in the car.

However after first reading this thread back several months ago, I bought a book called OBSESSION by John Douglas and Mark Olshaker.

John Douglas was an FBI profiler till he retired and he has written several books now this one was the second I read. It was excellent. And it really made me rethink what went on with the stalker story. In the book he talks about rapists, types of rapists, stalkers and such and what goes on in their minds. Plus he talks about what we can do to help survivers and their families after they have been through this ordeal.

In this book he also brings out the point of the need to report these types of attacks, since by not reporting them we (men and women) allow these types of people to continue on destroying other peoples lives.

Mark

[The Boar Man]

Between 1989-90 my wife and I moved into our first house. I was working for a defense contractor that would have me away on a job for 2-3 weeks at a time for 3-4 times a year.

One night my wife was painting our living room when she looked our the windows and saw a glow from a ciggerette ash. She continued on painting up on the ladder when she turned around and saw it again. [ The side of the room ran along side of our neighbors house and she realized it was coming from our neighbors house, she was being watched from their window.]

Well when she was painting I guess the wall near the window she saw the glow of the ash again and she caught our neighbor's reflection and she realized he was butt naked. She figured well maybe he and his wife just got done making love or something and while it was odd she finished and got done in the room.

Wel she noticed this again the next time I was out on one of these trips. But while it made her uncomfortable she didn't mention it to me. Infact I didn't learn of it until I had moved with a job change out of state it was then I was told what this guy had a habit of doing when I was away from the house for extended periods of time.

We talked to my karate instructor (who was a parole officer for kids) and we figured we couldn't really do anything since he was in his house and he hadn't made any threatening moves or anything towards my wife. So we talked to our other neighbor (on the other side of the house) and he went and talked to the guy letting him know in no uncertain terms that my wife thought she saw him doing this and that if he did this again than he would take care of him. (I was out of state at the time he talked to him)

A couple of years later this guy got busted exposing himself to another woman on the street where we lived.

:( my 3 year daughter likes the blue smilie face

I wish we would have reported him when my wife first saw the guy doing his thing. Who knows if he exposed himself to the kids on the street or anyone else who was just embarrassed about it like my wife was. We thought the guy was a harmless older man who might have been having trouble. So we cut him some slack but he had a probelm that should have been dealt with.

Mark

[Ceicei]

Thank you, Boar Man, for sharing these stories.

People sometimes do not always realize the seriousness of the situation until it "hits in the face".

As had been mentioned before, emotions (fear, uneasiness, or even embarrassment) can sometimes prevent the reporting of certain situations.


the need to report these types of attacks, since by not reporting them we (men and women) allow these types of people to continue on destroying other peoples lives.


I wonder though, that reporting to proper authorities can be daunting, especially when the aftermath of the experience does take time and can be emotionally exhausting. For many, it is easier to confide in a family member or a friend. It behooves that family member/friend to be proactive, perhaps even to the point of reporting this in behalf. That can be crucial when dangerous individuals and/or situations may be life threatening.

Your wife did good in finally letting you know and you're lucky you have neighbors who cares about your family while you're away from home.

Hindsight is 20/20. It doesn't do much good dwelling on the "should haves" too often; nevertheless, it is imperative to share these experiences with others so that a similar incident could be recognized and action taken before getting worse.

- Ceicei

[The Boar Man]

I agree that reporting the incident can be a delicate task to say the least. This was the 1st instance where something like this happened and we didn't report it. In fact it wasn't till reading this thread and then reading the book on OBSESSION that I even thought about this even though it happen about 15 years ago.

My wife and I were discussing this just a while ago when I told I wrote about these two incidents. She had forgotten about the pervert completely except she remembered something that I had totally forgotten.

My wife and I were on the phone (I was in Tulsa OK she in TX) when all of the sudden all of the lights went off in the house. She noticed that other houses on the street still had their lights on she I told her to go to to our next door neighbors house and get our friend. He came out and I think the lights were back on. This might have been the reason she told me about the guy cause she freaked out over it. It wasn't till I heard about the guy that I became concerned over the incident.

We talked about going to the police over the guy however we knew that it would strain our relations with neighbors we knew next to nothing about and it would embarrassing for them and us. We didn't want to cause trouble so we let it drop. But since reading more about the stalker's (criminals) mind(s) I think that now I would have reported him.

[dearnis.com]

Fun stalking story!!!!!

My next door neighbor is convinced my room mate's dog is stalking his wife. He has repeatedly confronted us, and even built a second fence so the dog cant look into his house.


(just to lighten the mood..)

[edhead2000]

Originally posted by The Boar Man
We talked to my karate instructor (who was a parole officer for kids) and we figured we couldn't really do anything since he was in his house and he hadn't made any threatening moves or anything towards my wife.

Can any of our resident police officers answer this question? When can you report something to the police and when can they take action? If someone is in their house watching you in your house, is that an offense?
Thanks
Erin

[dearnis.com]

It all depends.....
Generally speaking simply watching someone is not an offense. Delaware does have a fairly broad stalking statue, but it is rarely prosecuted and I was once repremanded for charging under it.

Ther must be some type of contact and it must be of a threatening or harassing nature.

Now, given the, um, state, of Mark's neighbor, I would have at least had an officer respond to the house and ask that they close the curtains.

I'll hit the topic again later, but I'm 40 hours into a taxing 50 hour week and dont want to do any more cop stuff tonight.

[Ceicei]

Apparently a man was stalking a woman long enough to know when her husband and neighbors would be away. She had never met him before. The man then posed as a detective with a badge. When she let him in, he attempted to rape her. She was able to fight him off because of having previously taken self defense classes when she lived in Las Vegas for 6 years.

- Ceicei

See below for the link to the article:

http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,590041328,00.html

[Tgace]

Originally posted by edhead2000
Can any of our resident police officers answer this question? When can you report something to the police and when can they take action? If someone is in their house watching you in your house, is that an offense?
Thanks
Erin

Watching??? No....Watching naked?? Yes. In NY state I could arrest a person for Public Lewdness for exposing himself "in private premises under circumstances in which he may readily be observed from either a public place or from other private premises, and with the intent that he so be observed."


You can always report something. Some officers may try to avoid the paperwork, but if you insist on one you should get one...I file reports "for information" in cases that may never be prosecuted but I feel need some sort of paper trail.

When can we take action?? In general...when we observe an offense, or if the complainant states an offense has been commited and desires to press charges. In that case i would need to have probable cause to believe such offense had been committed through my own investigation. If I dont believe I (as a patrolman) have enough evidence to make the arrest, the complainant can have a detective do a more in-depth investigation and have a warrant issued.

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by edhead2000
Can any of our resident police officers answer this question? When can you report something to the police and when can they take action? If someone is in their house watching you in your house, is that an offense?
Thanks
Erin

Erin,

I know that the local police stations all have flyers on abuse and the law, including stalking laws. I do not know for other states. Yet, by going to your local police department and asking for information is one way to approach.


You can also go to the student activities section of your college. Talk to a coordinator for the clubs or for the local action club. They have various names. Many times they have information on the local laws, for spouse abuse as well as for stalking. They also have information on birth control and support groups for those with children and also with other issues and problems.

Please, everyone check it out. If not for yourself, then for a friend who cannot make it, for some reason.
:asian:

[edhead2000]

Originally posted by Ceicei
Apparently a man was stalking a woman long enough to know when her husband and neighbors would be away. She had never met him before. The man then posed as a detective with a badge. When she let him in, he attempted to rape her. She was able to fight him off because of having previously taken self defense classes when she lived in Las Vegas for 6 years.

- Ceicei

See below for the link to the article:

http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,590041328,00.html

Ceicei,
That's a terrifying story, but I thank you for sharing it with us. It really brings to light some of the things we've discussed in this thread. I know these incidents are few and far between, but I think it's important that we're all aware of them and know what to do if they should happen. I'm so happy to her that the woman was prepared (by taking self defense classes) and had the instinct/strength/courage to fight back. It makes me sad that her son had to witness the confrontation, but at least he saw his mom being strong in the face of danger instead of the other many different outcomes this story could have had. I'm glad the article gave tips about asking for picture id's as well. Anybody have any other comments? How do the officers out there feel about this? And others?

I know when I hear stories about pharmacists (my future profession) doing things that go against our code of ethics (diluting medications, stealing, illegal sale and trafficking, etc.) it really infuriates me. It makes the whole profession (and myself) look bad in the public eye. I'm in a profession that it desperately trying to gain the trust of the public and physicians and these acts by others is devastating to that progress.

Erin

[Ceicei]

Originally posted by edhead2000
I'm glad the article gave tips about asking for picture id's as well.

I think the best tip the article gave was to make the detective/police officer/sheriff wait outside while a call is made to the police station/sheriff's office to see if they sent anyone over to the house.

If he/she is a legitimate LEO, waiting outside for a few more minutes in addition to showing a badge and a picture id is generally not a problem.

- Ceicei

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Ceicei
I think the best tip the article gave was to make the detective/police officer/sheriff wait outside while a call is made to the police station/sheriff's office to see if they sent anyone over to the house.

If he/she is a legitimate LEO, waiting outside for a few more minutes in addition to showing a badge and a picture id is generally not a problem.

- Ceicei


Also , I know from experience, if the police are really serious, not only will identify themsleves, they will call you (* Assuming your number is listed *) and or have a marked car show up. Just tell anyone on the other side of the door you want to see ID before you open up. As mentioned by others.

[edhead2000]

I have a question about this. In my place, I have no windows beside my door, nor do I have a screen door. I would have to open the door to ask to see the officer's id. How could I handle this situation? I wouldn't want to NOT answer and call first because that might be construed as "avoiding" or some other behavior.

I doubt this is something I'd ever have to worry about, but usually I don't know who's on the other side of the door until I open it......unless I'm expecting someone. I do know that a few weeks ago, an officer showed up at my neighbor's house and he was in uniform and in a marked car. So I would assume that it policy.

[Ceicei]

Originally posted by edhead2000
I have a question about this. In my place, I have no windows beside my door, nor do I have a screen door. I would have to open the door to ask to see the officer's id. How could I handle this situation? I wouldn't want to NOT answer and call first because that might be construed as "avoiding" or some other behavior.


No window or screen door? If you live in an apt., ask the landlord about the possibility of installing a peephole or a chainlock to allow you to see the people before you let them in. Another possibility, if you have the money, is having a small camera placed outside to allow you a view on a closed circuit to an indoor monitor.

- Ceicei

[edhead2000]

Originally posted by Ceicei
No window or screen door? If you live in an apt., ask the landlord about the possibility of installing a peephole or a chainlock to allow you to see the people before you let them in. Another possibility, if you have the money, is having a small camera placed outside to allow you a view on a closed circuit to an indoor monitor.

- Ceicei

My parents own the place that I'm living in. I do have a peephole, however, it's taller than I am and I can't see out of it unless I get a stool. :) I have a window in my kitchen that faces the front, but it's at an angle that I can only see the car of the person, not who's actually at the door. So in the case that a neighbor is stopping by, I wouldn't be able to see them.
Good suggestions, though! Thanks.

[dearnis.com]

If you have concerns call 911 first. A legit officer on a routine visit is not going to kick your door in....

[edhead2000]

Once again, I've probably been watching too much tv :)

[Pacificshore]

Originally posted by edhead2000
I have a question about this. In my place, I have no windows beside my door, nor do I have a screen door. I would have to open the door to ask to see the officer's id. How could I handle this situation? I wouldn't want to NOT answer and call first because that might be construed as "avoiding" or some other behavior.

I doubt this is something I'd ever have to worry about, but usually I don't know who's on the other side of the door until I open it......unless I'm expecting someone. I do know that a few weeks ago, an officer showed up at my neighbor's house and he was in uniform and in a marked car. So I would assume that it policy.


Hi Erin:

If you are not comfortable opening your door to see the id and badge, ask for his badge number, and then call it in to comfirm if he's legit. Just another thought to throw out there.

[edhead2000]

Thanks for the advice Pacificshore! :)

[Tgace]

If there's a fully marked patrol car in front of your house and a uniformed officer at your door. 99.999% of the time its going to be a real cop. Most of the "fake cop" instances are guys in "raid jackets" with "police" ball caps on and fake badges. If theres a plainclothes officer at your door and you are in doubt, call 911 and ask if an officer has been sent to your address or a neighboring one. Sometimes we just want to ask a neighbor if they have seen or heard anything.

[Gin-Gin]

OMG!! I just found this thread (because CeiCei posted it to the "Rant & Rave" thread & I'm glad she did). I'm so sorry that happened to you, Tess & CeiCei. You are both very brave people, and the fact that you both have worked through it & armed yourselves (metaphorically & literally speaking) & moved on with your lives is truly awesome. I'm glad to know both of you ladies. :asian:

don't give out pertinent info.. if you live alone.. etc.. Predators prey on learning all they can and They will do anything to do so.. Tess
True...

Taking up martial arts taught me to stablize myself, gain confidence, overcome fear, and learn to trust others.
Me too! :ultracool (although I'm still working on the "trust others" part--the Kenpo people get more trust than most, but I'm still usually very guarded)

It took me a long time to ever be in a serious relationship, but I did finally get married to the greatest guy on earth.
Awesome! Does he have any brothers or cousins who are single? ;)

Also, thanks for the links, Tess. I'll read through the other pages of this thread but I just had to tell you both how I felt reading your stories just now. Perhaps one day I'll share my story (wasn't stalking, but something even worse)...

Your Kenpo Sister,
Gin-Gin :asian:

[Gin-Gin]

It's amazing what we forget as far as trauma's that have happened to us in the past.. our minds have a defense of their own~!!

So true, my Queen....:asian:

[Feisty Mouse]

I just found this thread too, and read it through.

Scary stuff. Tess, CeiCei, edhead...thanks for sharing your stories. And a big thank-you to all our LEOs out there who are helping us learn how to protect ourselves!

:asian:

[The Kai]

You ladies have been through some scary stuff


I really commend both opf you for begining you training and not just talking about it. There are ladies I know that have beeen through similiar stuff, yet stilll think that one or two self defense class will do the trick!
Todd

[dearnis.com]

I'm glad to see this thread is continuing to be of benefit; there is some good info here....though I am truly sorry we live in world where any of you can relate to it.

[Gin-Gin]

I'm glad to see this thread is continuing to be of benefit; there is some good info here....though I am truly sorry we live in world where any of you can relate to it.
So am I...and thanks to edhead2000--I just read her story & was moved by it also. Glad you're here on MT, Erin! :ultracool

And a big thank you to all our LEOs out there who are helping us learn how to protect ourselves!:asian:
Definitely--Thank you, LEOs (Law Enforcement Officers) and MA Instructors!!!:asian:

A thought: Sometimes in order to appreciate where you are you have to remember where you've been. (Just something I've realized in my own personal experience.)
:asian:

[TheLady]

I have a flashing story...when I was in university, there was a guy standing in his doorway checking his mail on a Sunday butt naked. First clue - he waited until there were women walking by before making noise with the mailbox. Second clue - there was no mail delivery on the weekends.

My sister saw him first while walking alone but did one of those, "I can't be seeing what I think I'm seeing" routines. Later that afternoon, my friends and I saw him too. We decided to call the police for two reasons: there were a lot of young women/kids in that area, and we thought this behavior might escalate into something worse if we didn't report it.

The police were very nice about taking our report and investigated the situation. What freaked me out was that the police took our names and address, and apparently, if the guy got a lawyer, the lawyer was entitled to see that information. So the nutbar gets to know who ratted on him AND where they live?? No wonder people don't report things.

Does it still work that way?

Janice

(I think the guy got off with a warning but at least there's a record of his behaviour.)

[Tgace]

Well, in the US you do have the right to know your accuser if you are arrested....

[MA-Caver]

One of the things the women/ witnesses could do is all gather together stand around the guy and point at his wee wee and start laughing their asses off... trust me... Male egos don't take that very well. Or stand around the guy in a circle and start slapping him.

Seriously, they could have gotten a male friend to make the call/ complaint couldn't they? I mean a man can be as offended by that behavior as much a woman.

It is sad that fear causes crimes like these to go unreported. Fear of escalation. But it's another good reason why more women should take a SD/MA class(es) to minimize that fear so that these sick guys can be taken care of.

[greyghost]

I can relate to the stalking - not as badly as you two had it but creepy enough. In University I liked to study nights at Waffle House. It's open 24 hours, bottomless cup of coffee, well lighted, no distrations. Well some guy started showing up. He'd make small talk, nothing major and I thought nothing of it.
Then I was leaving martial arts class and found a note on my car. Some sick love letter. I thought it was a joke and I turned to my friend Wu and asked if he had done that. He says "no." and we make a joke and start laughing it off. Then another note and a flower about a week later.
I started watching my back. And my car.
And then one night at Waffle House, the guy shows up and says "did you get my notes?"
What got me was, I knew he knew my car, but there are two colleges in that town and I had never said which one I attended. That meant he had to have been checking out both looking for my car.
So I lost my favorite hangout, and when the semester was over, changed schools.

I can also relate to the story of "come over, I have something to show you." Only in my case, my "friend" was crying and sounded like something had gone terribly wrong. We had been friends for months, I was engaged to my soon to be husband, he even knew my husband, we had all hung out together.

[Feisty Mouse]

About the flashing...

One of my coworkers here was flashed late-ish at night, in a supermarket parking lot. She was getting into her car, he was in his, and apparently opened his coat or something. The problem was, she is a moderate Muslim, and was absolutely horrified (this is the woman who was horrified that a naked male back was shown in a movie she and her husband took their son to, if that gives you a guage). She told us about it the next day, and was very shaken up - I think she was throwing up. She kept asking why he picked her, was it because she looked a certain way, did something wrong....

It just broke my heart, because a) of course she didn't do anything wrong, she was at the supermarket at maybe 11pm at night buying groceries, and b) perhaps in part because of her background/upbringing, she was utterly horrified and felt dirty and ashamed for a long time afterwards. After that, she wouldn't talk to anyone about it - I think because she threw up every time she thought about it, and just wanted to forget it.

[triwahine]

Wow!! Really scary stuff. I just found this thread today. I am so sorry to read that you women have been through such a horrible ordeal. Thanks for being strong and sharing with us so that we may be better "informed" as to the happenings in the world. Sometimes we get to complacent in our lives and forget about what can happen. Everyone, take care and be safe, always.

[mj-hi-yah]

One of the things the women/ witnesses could do is all gather together stand around the guy and point at his wee wee and start laughing their asses off... trust me... Male egos don't take that very well. Or stand around the guy in a circle and start slapping him.

Seriously, they could have gotten a male friend to make the call/ complaint couldn't they? I mean a man can be as offended by that behavior as much a woman.

Thanks to everyone for your contributions to this thread! :asian: Especially to the ladies for sharing your stories and the LEOs for sharing your experience in this area. It's very informative.

MJ :asian:

PS Like this Caver?

[Jay Bell]

A close friend of mine recently had a very strong run-in with a stalking co-worker. He even relocated to be closer to her. Long story short, things ended a couple of months ago when she threatened him with police action. She has yet to hear from him since.

In our digging, we came across a pretty fantastic site on the subject. Thought you all might find some use of it:

http://www.esia.net/

[BrandiJo]

these stroies makes me glad im going to a small christian college, dorms are totaly gender sperate (no guys whatso ever in the girls and no girls in the guys either) and sense my school only has about 1000 students we know most everyone and are willing to help out with things go wrong

ii have a questionish type thing... see i have an ex BF who wont leave me be,, hes always calling or visiting and finding my number. Iv blocked his number befor iv changed my cell phone number and put a restricion on my dorm number (the desk people arnt allowed to give it out to anyone) but yet he still manages to get ahold of my number and find out when im in town( visiting home). He has never hurt me physicaly but while we were dateing he played mind games with me, and played off my emotions. so heres my question should i be overly concerd and take some action(call the police) or just chack it up to him still wanting to be with me?

and so far when ever we talk or he finds me in town it normaly ends with him wanting to give "us " a shot again and me crying cus he noramly finds me at bad times (nights, at work, or in the mall) adn when he calls he normaly ends up yelling (and i dont do well with yelling so i end up getting upset and angry and not helping things much)

I am not a weak person, i know SD and i knwo him well enuff to hurt him (his weaknesses and what not) but im slightly worried that one day he will get me upset and i wont be able to think clear enuff to help myself if things go bad

[Zepp]

Brandi,

Yes, I think you absolutely should notify the police before the next time he contacts you. They might not be able to do anything the first time you contact them, but it's possible that this may be enough to scare the guy off. If not, you will at least have some documentation that will help you if you decide to go to court and get a restraining order.

Your college, even though it's small, likely has a counseling center of some sort, or possibly even a women's center, that can help you take the appropriate actions. You should look into this.

From what you've described, your ex-boyfriend is engaging in stalking behavior. If this is left unchecked, it's very likely that he will begin to escalate his actions to become more invasive, and possibly physically violent. I'm not trying to scare you (ok, maybe I am a little bit), but it's important that you get some help with this. Talking to either the police (especially campus police, if there are any) or your school's counseling center will be a good start. In fact, your dorm's RA probably has contact information for you.

Also, Jay Bell has posted a link to a very informative site. You may want to take a look there if you haven't already.

[shesulsa]

BrandiJo,

Absolutely go to the police. If you have gone to the extents you say you have and he continues to get your number and give you problems, you need to completely remove yourself from this guy. Do you have caller ID there? You may need to just screen all of your calls with an answering machine. Tell everyone that you will never answer your phone until you hear the voice of the caller on the machine. Don't call this guy, don't see this guy, don't write him letters, take any and all things he sends you or messages he leaves you to the police.

If he's not intentionally stalking you he needs to understand that what he's doing is wrong and dangerous. He's clearly not taking the hint. Send this guy a message he'll understand - get the law involved.

I wish I'd seen this sooner.

[Ceicei]

BrandiJo,

I agree, the ex-boyfriend problem could get worse. He is not getting the hint if he keeps finding and hassling you every time you change phone numbers. The fact he yells at you and makes you upset shows it is much more than "just wanting to be with you." It appears to be a control issue.

I agree with the other comments. Do something NOW to make it clear to him that he has to STOP. Zepp and Shesulsa gave good suggestions.

- Ceicei

[Feisty Mouse]

Ditto.

For the LEOs out there - would, in Brandi's situation, a restraining order be a good first step, to have as a record with this guy?
I know they don't work very effectively as walls people can't get through, but then there might be some documentation....

[dearnis.com]

"Restraining order" is a bit of a myth; they don't work as quick or easy as on TV if they even exist in your jurisdiction. We don't have them in my state; you can have someone arrested; as a condition of bail they are issued "no contact" orders.
Domestic Violence Protection from Abuse Orders are more standard, and can be enforced across state lines. In both cases a paper trail of police reports is very, very, important.
In this case, assuming he has been told to stop, stay away, and not call any more, the frequency of calls actually rises to felony harassment (under the code where I work).
By all means report it, both to the police and to any relevant campus authorities.

[Feisty Mouse]

Good to know! But, under a different documentation/procedure, the police can be notified about this behavior.

I'm concerned that BrandiJo can set up a paper trail, essentially - or have the police talk to this guy so he knows to stop, REALLY.

Thank you! :asian:

[shesulsa]

Though a restraining order or no contact orders are often nothing but pieces of paper that are ignored, one must consider the worst case scenario and that would be having to defend oneself against murder or assault charges should the victim need to defend herself. The question will be asked if all the legal options were sought out and if the answer to any of the possibilities is , "no, because I have been told repeatedly that they don't work" this can lay groundwork for doubt.

I am of the opinion that if a tool exists for your protection, USE IT. Don't just ignore it because it's nothing but a piece of paper. Get the damn thing and employ your other options as well. There is a term for this and we all know it well - it's called CYA ... Cover Your Ass.

Just my strongly-advised, humble and experience opinion.

[BrandiJo]

thanks guys, like i said the desk workes know not to give out my number and i think if i hear from him again(bah and im sure i will) that ill take it to the police, i never really thought of it as a big deal but i could see how this could get really bad

[dearnis.com]

Don't wait for him. Take the step of going from re-active to pro-active. FYI reports are rarely taken merely to "document." Report that your ex has been repeatedly telephoning you, ignored your requests to stop, and that you are "annoyed and alarmed" by his behavior. At this point you have a crime, and it will get you a report.
I'm not sure how it works in your area, but at this point it would be up to you whether or not to proceed in obtaining a misdemeanor arrest warrant, looking into a protective order, etc. Notice I said it would be up to you; this means you could seek a warrant tomorrow, the next time he calls, or a year from now if circumstances change.
Whatever you do down the road is up to you, but get the report.
(Also feel free to PM if you have any questions you don't want to post)

Disclaimer: Note that the foregoing are simply the opinions of an LEO who got tired of dealing with domestic issues and transferred to fatal crash investigations where life is much simpler; for actual legal advice consult an attorney in your jurisdiction.

[Ceicei]

BrandiJo, dearnis has made an excellent point. Don't just wait for him. Take action to nip this situation asap.

You deserve some ((hugs)) from me. Things will eventually work out.

- Ceicei

[shesulsa]

Chad, I already repped you good for this, but I wanted to publicly say thank you for stepping in on such an important matter. The topic has mainly involved women, which is a little disturbing, but you stepped in gladly and I for one appreciate it.

[dearnis.com]

It is a real problem, unfortunately far more for woment than for men. I reckon dealing with a few hundred domestic calls has given me some insight, so it seems unfair to keep it to myself.

All joking aside; I strongly encourage anyone having these types of issues to face the problem now before it faces you later. I'll also drop another plug for Gavin de Becker's the Gift of Fear , though I encourage you to disregard his anti-gun drivel. The rest of the book is well worth reading, and provides some insights that, sadly, many of you will find useful.

[BrandiJo]

thank you all for your help...i think i may go get all this stuff on file or whatever atleast talk to teh police aboutit i dont want to push for anything right now just let it go and if things continue to push for charges or leagle action but i think you all are right haveing it on file would be a very good thingg

[AC_Pilot]

While I reluctant to say every female should have or could properly use a handgun, (just the same for men) if you feel threatened by a stalker and think you have what it takes to shoot an attacker, get firearms safety training (it's often free, call the ranges near you) and then real world self defense training and study the lethal force laws in your area. Then go to a range that rents firearms and try a number of different compact weapons in say 9mm or 40 S & W, (I recommend "double action only" in auto weapons for beginners) and select one that feels comfortable to you and that you shoot well. A quality manufacture (Ruger, Smith and Wesson) short barreled .357 magnum revolver is a good & versatile choice also, especially in stainless steel, since you can start out by shooting .38 specials in these weapons until/if you feel comfortable with the magnum loads. My lady carries a 3 inch heavy barreled M65 .357 with full power .357 ammo, today these are sold by S & W with the name "Ladysmiths". Always use an expanding bullet load that fires and cycles in your particluar weapon, and shoot at least 500 rounds through any new pistol to break it in. Learn how to dissemble and clean and re-lube your particular gun. Personally I would teach any lady who wanted, advanced pistolcraft at no charge, and I'm not the only one, maybe you even know someone personally who could help you with all the above. Use your resources well. Remember only you can defend yourself, the cops have no responsibility to defend you as an individual. Usually they will show up well after the fact. This is not their fault it's a reality of life.


Apply first of all for your CCW permit if your state allows CCW, and if there is an exception for emergency conditions, apply for that to speed up the process. Here's a great site I frequent, for CCW carriers: www.packing.org (http://www.packing.org) Lots of very helpful and informed folks there.

[dearnis.com]

Good points, but not entirely relevant here. The fact that Brandi Jo lives in a dorm effectively precludes her from carrying, even if she is old enough. I think this thread is far more about awareness, acceptance of and recognition of threats than anything else. There is a pretty good thread on teaching female significant others to shoot over in the firearms section.

[AC_Pilot]

Well, I'm not going to tell anyone to break the law, but if it were me I would not hesitate to do whatever was needed to defend myself.. as the old saying goes: "Better to be judged by 12 than carried by six." But then no-one would know I was armed unless my life was in danger and I had to use it (Today with AIDs, rape is a usually considered a lethal attack) She can, at least, carry pepper spray and be very alert and not put herself in compromised situations. (Wild parties, etc..)

[BrandiJo]

i already care police strength peper spray stuff (its nice haveing uncles on the local PD they like to take care of me :) i told them about this guy last friday when i got home (they were mad i didnt come to them sooner lol oops)but they told me that they made a report about my complants and if he talks to me again they (my two uncles) will make sure its them that talk to him (not excatly sure what they ment by that ) but it should be taken care of now i havent heard from teh guy in about a week and i hope not to but i wouldnt hold my breath that hes done just yet cus last time when i told him to back off he made it a whole month with out talking to me :-/i think when i talk to the police he gets notifyed right? and so hopefully he finaly got the idea i was serious

[Rich Parsons]

Well, "Better to be judged by 12 than carried by six."

As part of your self defense you should have the phone number of a good lawyer and also repeat after me, "I do not know, I think I need to talk to my lawyer. No, I said I want to talk to my lawyer. Maybe I should call my mom/dad/spouse so they can call a lawyer."

Dealing with the court system later is very painful, yes it is good to be alive to deal with the pain, yet you can limit the pain, if you exercise your rights. It does not mean you are guilty or wrong to ask for a lawyer.

[Ceicei]

i already care police strength peper spray stuff (its nice haveing uncles on the local PD they like to take care of me :) i told them about this guy last friday when i got home (they were mad i didnt come to them sooner lol oops)but they told me that they made a report about my complants and if he talks to me again they (my two uncles) will make sure its them that talk to him (not excatly sure what they ment by that ) but it should be taken care of now i havent heard from teh guy in about a week and i hope not to but i wouldnt hold my breath that hes done just yet cus last time when i told him to back off he made it a whole month with out talking to me :-/i think when i talk to the police he gets notifyed right? and so hopefully he finaly got the idea i was serious I'm glad you finally did talk to the local PD, and having uncles on the force is very helpful :). At least you made the next step. Let's hope the guy hassling you understands he is to leave you alone. Take your uncles' advice--if he calls you again, call them. We're all here for you!

- Ceicei

[shesulsa]

As part of your self defense you should have the phone number of a good lawyer and also repeat after me, "I do not know, I think I need to talk to my lawyer. No, I said I want to talk to my lawyer. Maybe I should call my mom/dad/spouse so they can call a lawyer."

Dealing with the court system later is very painful, yes it is good to be alive to deal with the pain, yet you can limit the pain, if you exercise your rights. It does not mean you are guilty or wrong to ask for a lawyer.

This needs to be repeated.

If you are in a position where you must defend yourself and you must use any kind of force, be it physical or from a little spray can, follow the above advice.

Bad things happen to good people who speak freely, in their innocence, before having legal representation present.

[Gin-Gin]

I'm glad you finally did talk to the local PD, and having uncles on the force is very helpful :). At least you made the next step. Let's hope the guy hassling you understands he is to leave you alone. Take your uncles' advice--if he calls you again, call them. We're all here for you! - Ceicei
Everything Ceicei said goes for me too, Brandi Jo. Please keep us updated on the situation; stay safe & study hard. :D

[AC_Pilot]

In my area.. self defense is perfectly acceptable and legal..no requirement to retreat and we can defend other innocent people under felony assault. Our county sheriff runs on a pro second amendment and citizen's right to self defense platform... but basically you're right about not saying anything until you get a lawyer. About all I would say, to identify myself as a law abiding person defending myself, is "I feared for my or another person's (life, safety, etc..) here's my concealed carry permit, and if you have more questions I'll need to speak to my lawyer." The cops here in my area are mostly good guys but I well know that does not mean you should spill your guts, and it could happen in less gun-friendly Seattle so better safe than sorry!

[BrandiJo]

iv always been taught that as a women, i am able to use as much force as i see nessacary in any situation to keep myself safe ... i never really thought about how that could be bad as far as leagle situations but looking at it more i see that my force should match the amouth of threat and the seriousness of the situation.

Good to know about not opening my mouth before i have someone who knows how things work present (not that i EVER plan to be in that situation)

[Schtankybampo]

...but usually it's a phallic symbol.

Why won't the thread lay down and die? Because it's a good thread.

So one night about two months ago, my sister and I are sitting in our living room, watching a movie. It was "Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban", just so you can set the scene in your head. We're playing it pretty loud because, well, we like to, and no-one lives below us to be horribly annoyed. Suddenly my sister who has quite frankly, preternaturally acute hearing hits pause. Now even I, who am deaf as the proverbial post can hear the crashing coming from the back of our apartment.

Let me give you a quick insight as to the layout of our second-floor apartment. It has ONE (count 'em) ONE door- the front one. There is no actual way into the back of our apartment. The quadruple-paned windows (I'm serious, we're in an airport path) are not an option.

So how is it that I am hearing noises from the back of the apartment?

We both get up. We don't keep a gun in the house (not yet, we're just not ready) but we do have various and sundry armaments lying about. I availed myself of a bo staff, she doesn't actually need anything other than her eyebrow and her attitude. We approach the hallway, and look down.

Ok, there's a teenage boy standing in my bathroom. If he were older, I'd have said "Alellulia, it's raining men!" but....jail bait. He looks confused. He looks dazed. *I* feel confused and dazed- how the HECK did he get into my bathroom? He sees us, and turns bright red. We know this kid. He's been around the complex before, we've seen him. He's polite, he's helped Samantha (my sister) with her stuff coming up the stairs. His garbled explanation: he was locked out of his apartment, and tried to get in through the bathroom skylight. All the apartments were dark, and he got disoriented on the roof, and picked the wrong one. The bathroom skylight, by the way, is 12 inches by 12 inches square. I measured it the next day when I went up to replace the glass. He was *mortified*- couldn't apologize enough. Couldn't get out fast enough either.

There are two morals to the story.

Moral # 1: Not everyone in the world means you harm. Sometimes, even in the worst places, people are decent. I think we lose sight of that sometimes here. The caveat to that is that you MUST, MUST MUST prepare for the worst. That way when they turn out to be decent, you are pleasantly surprised.

Moral #2: And this is the important one, ladies. NEVER assume that your apartment is absolutely secure because you have a strong door and bolted windows. This incident caused me to take a good strong look at my apartment, and I found 2 other ways in that I had simply never noticed. -1. There was a cabinet in my kitchen that was seperated from the kitchen in the apartment next door with only insulation. That I had the apartment manager fix immediatly. 2. There was an attic-crawlspace access in the water heater closet that was unsecured. I have since secured it. So ladies...and gentlemen, take a look at more than your windows and doors when thinking about your security.

I got lucky. :)

M

[dearnis.com]

Sad foot note...those most likely to harm you are known to you and often trusted by you.

[mj-hi-yah]

Sad foot note...those most likely to harm you are known to you and often trusted by you.Sad, but true and important to remember!

[Gin-Gin]

Sad foot note...those most likely to harm you are known to you and often trusted by you.
Yes - sad but true. :(

[joyce]

I never had anything near as bad as others in this thread,but my experience still scared me.

I use to work at the local mall in my town, and i had a friend who worked at the place that i would grab my dinner on breaks. During those breaks i would sit and chat with him and the guy he worked with would join us sometimes.

this went on for about a month and I was fine with it, but there was something off about the guy who worked with my friend. he stare at me and try to touch me when ever he could.

A few times he came over to my work and ask where I was and what my schedual was. It kind of scared me.

One day I was just at the mall walking around by myself and all of a sudden he is right next to me. He proceeded to follow me around the mall even following me into a hair salon when i went to go talk to a friend. He just stared at me the whole time i was talking. He finally left.

That experience spooked me, the worst part is when my mother thought it was cute that he followed me around.

[Gin-Gin]

I never had anything near as bad as others in this thread,but my experience still scared me. I use to work at the local mall in my town, and i had a friend who worked at the place that i would grab my dinner on breaks. During those breaks i would sit and chat with him and the guy he worked with would join us sometimes. this went on for about a month and I was fine with it, but there was something off about the guy who worked with my friend. he stare at me and try to touch me when ever he could. A few times he came over to my work and ask where I was and what my schedual was. It kind of scared me. One day I was just at the mall walking around by myself and all of a sudden he is right next to me. He proceeded to follow me around the mall even following me into a hair salon when i went to go talk to a friend. He just stared at me the whole time i was talking. He finally left. That experience spooked me, the worst part is when my mother thought it was cute that he followed me around.
First of all, Hi Joyce & welcome to Martial Talk! :wavey:

Glad to see that this thread is still useful. Sorry to hear about your experience; that is scary. Too bad your mom didn't understand how dangerous that situation could have become, but I know that you're taking steps to be safe (i.e., taking Kenpo). Thanks for sharing your story & Good Luck with your training! :)

Sincerely,
Gin-Gin :asian:

[Ceicei]

Joyce,

Glad to have you with us!! :wavey:

Did you tell your friend about his friend? It is not just something to brush off. If you get weird feelings about it, you probably are right. One of these days, he may try something more than just following you. Do let your boss know. At least you are currently taking martial arts, so that will help.

I had a similar experience happen when I was a high school 17 year old student. That summer, I worked at a veteran's hospital in the supply office. There was this much older guy (I am guessing around 25-30 years old), who was a good friend with one of my childhood buddies. They work in the cleaning/laundry area. It started out the same way as yours did--just eating lunch together--my buddy, him, and me. Usually it is just my buddy and me talking. He just sat silently watching/staring and tried flirting. I would basically ignore him.

One day, this guy got into the elevator from a different floor (and there were just the two of us), he pressed himself up against me then backed off quickly when the door opened. It shook me up very badly even though it took just a couple of seconds. That evening, I was one of the few who finished work a little late. While walking to my car through the underground tunnel leading to the parking lot, I realized this same guy standing in the shadows. He apparently had tracked me enough to know my habits. He started walking to follow me. I moved faster, he moved faster too. Soon I sprinted the last 30 yards to my car (the best I could in my dress and nice shoes). He almost caught up before I finally left. I cried on the way home.

Although nothing happened, it made me so nervous that I had to look over my shoulders every time I came to work that week. If I had to do supply runs, I made an excuse to have someone else come with me. I refused to go to the lunch room. I intentionally left work early with the others from the fiscal office.

The guy kept looking at me (I talked to another older female during a break about him and she said, "Oh, he does that to every female here."). The stress bothered me so much I quit working at the start of the following week.

Whether he would have done something more, I don't know, but I didn't want to take the chance by staying around. I don't care if he feels up every other female at work, I just simply did not like it. I'm not sure what I would have done since I had no martial arts knowledge at the time. Unfortunately, even if I wanted to, my parents didn't encourage martial arts. I started kenpo in college after a bad experience (explained earlier in this thread).

Trust your feelings and stay aware. Again, I'm glad you're with us!

- Ceicei

[Feisty Mouse]

As re: what Joyce and Ceicei mentioned....

Isn't it odd how behavior that is creepy and incredibly rude, or stalker-like, so easily passed off by others?

I don't know if others don't want to admit that they (or you) might be in danger, or what.

And as the Gin-gin and Ceicei said - nice to have you aboard, Joyce!

[Lisa]

As re: what Joyce and Ceicei mentioned....

Isn't it odd how behavior that is creepy and incredibly rude, or stalker-like, so easily passed off by others?

I don't know if others don't want to admit that they (or you) might be in danger, or what.

And as the Gin-gin and Ceicei said - nice to have you aboard, Joyce!
It is weird that no one wants to admit it. I think it comes from not believing that it is happening to you or someone they love/care for. We don't normally live our lives in fear and looking around every corner for something to go wrong so the feeling, when it does happen, is foreign to us and it takes our minds a while to grasp it.

[joyce]

Thank you all for making me feel welcomed.

My experience happened just last year when i was in High school. Since then I've changed jobs and just avoid going around where the guy works. I never told my friend about the guy, which I probably should have. thanks for the advice.

[Feisty Mouse]

I would definetly tell him, both to possibly protect yourself in the future, and also so that your friend will be aware, and hopefully be able to help prevent anything in the future, to you or someone else.

[Ceicei]

It is weird that no one wants to admit it. I think it comes from not believing that it is happening to you or someone they love/care for. We don't normally live our lives in fear and looking around every corner for something to go wrong so the feeling, when it does happen, is foreign to us and it takes our minds a while to grasp it.

This happened to one of my friends who was pursued by a man. Nothing untoward, except that he is just there every where she goes, so it is starting to creep her out. When she talked to others about this, most of them just dismiss this. Must something bad happen before others would take her seriously? Even if others may say they believe her, they tell her he will eventually get bored and go away. I am not so sure. I think he is playing mind games with her and this is just the beginning. I am pretty sure things will start to get worse.

- Ceicei

[Kacey]

I was stalked by a guy I met through an internet dating service. We went out once, and when he asked me out again, I told him that he wasn't really what I was looking for. He told me that he was new in town (true - he had just moved to Denver from Kansas) and was also looking for friends, so on that basis I kept talking to him... but every time he found out I'd been out on a date, he asked me out again, and kept coming up with more elaborate and expensive (and, I'm sure he thought, more impressive) date plans. I kept saying no, and it reached the point that I told him that if he couldn't handle just being friends, I could no longer see him socially.

At this point, he joined my TKD class - which had about 10 kids and 1 adult in it at the time. I took the adult aside (luckily, he was a lawyer) and discussed my concerns with him - the student agreed to help me keep and eye on things. This went on for about 3 months, during which time I steadfastly refused to accept gifts or see the man outside of class... so he started buying things for the class (focus pads, spare gear, etc.), and when I wouldn't take them, started presenting them to me in front of the students, with the class name written on them in indelible ink. I kept refusing to date him, or see him socially outside of class, but he kept pushing it, and finally showed up at an event at my work - so now he knew where I worked, lived, and recreated.

At this point, I took advantage of the School Resource Officer (a police officer stationed in the middle school), who advised me to file a restraining order. I wasn't quite ready to do that, so he offered to call him and warn him off, which he did... which lead to an email, supposedly intended for a different Karen, which lambasted the officer and claimed this guy was going to file charges against the officer for making threats (which he didn't file, as no threats were made - just a statement that his behavior was interfering with my ability to do my job properly, which it was).
For the next couple of weeks, I got supposedly 'misdirected' emails of a threatening nature, as well as ecards and phone calls.

I ran into him at a restaurant after a TKD event (we all went out to eat together) and he told me his mother was in town. That was on a Saturday night. Monday afternoon (it was a holiday weekend, for President's Day) he called me and started yelling that with friends like me, he didn't need enemies, and how he had given me all this stuff and I still didn't appreciate him, and now his mother was mad that he was spending all this money on me and I didn't appreciate him (he was 38 at this point, and I was 34). This went on for several profanity-laced minutes, along with the statement that he was coming to get his stuff back (which consisted of a stud finder I'd borrowed, and a couple of other tools, but he also tried to get back things he'd had donated from his company to the middle school I worked at). Luckily, a friend of mine was there, so I had a witness.

That was the final straw. I called the Denver Police department, and they suggested I file a restraining order, which, this time, I did. I had it delivered, and then had to spend two weeks wondering if he was going to obey it. The court date arrived, and he showed up with a lawyer; I was there with a couple of my students as witnesses to his behavior - the lawyer was one, and the other was a 16 year-old who was my senior student, both of whom had been approached for ways to change my mind. I ended up with a permanent stipulation agreement (like a restraining order, but agreed to by the person who was stalking me), and I haven't had any problems since, but it's certainly not an experience I ever want to go through again.

[Ceicei]

That was the final straw. I called the Denver Police department, and they suggested I file a restraining order, which, this time, I did. I had it delivered, and then had to spend two weeks wondering if he was going to obey it. The court date arrived, and he showed up with a lawyer; I was there with a couple of my students as witnesses to his behavior - the lawyer was one, and the other was a 16 year-old who was my senior student, both of whom had been approached for ways to change my mind. I ended up with a permanent stipulation agreement (like a restraining order, but agreed to by the person who was stalking me), and I haven't had any problems since, but it's certainly not an experience I ever want to go through again.

Thank you, Kacey. I'll let my friend know of her options (such as filing for RO) of what to do about that guy who is just following her and be there for both moral support and as a witness if needed. At this point, he hasn't initiated any direct contact with her, he just simply follows her around and stays in eye sight in public places.

- Ceicei

[Kacey]

Ceicei -

After I filed, my student who is a lawyer brought me a copy of the state statutes on stalking - although actual contact (verbal, physical, etc.) was included as one of the 10 or so possible actions that could be considered stalking, it was only one. If there is a law library in your area (colleges are good for this), I would suggest you, or your friend, look up the definition of stalking in your state - it's been 6 or 7 years, and I don't remember the Colorado statutes very clearly. Also, when I called the police department and described his behavior, they told me it was stalking, and encouraged me to file a temporary restraining order (at the court hearing, if he had not agreed to the stipulation agreement, the judge would have heard the case to determine if the restraining order should become permanent). There was no physical contact in my case, only verbal and attempting to join every activity in which I took part, and the only violence was profanity.

The one thing I remember clearly, which shocked me, was the number of women who filed for temporary orders who didn't come back for the hearing, at which point the temporary order expired - and these were women who were being beaten, by and large. I found it really hard to understand that.

Good luck to your friend.

[JannaB]

This happened to one of my friends who was pursued by a man. Nothing untoward, except that he is just there every where she goes, so it is starting to creep her out. When she talked to others about this, most of them just dismiss this. Must something bad happen before others would take her seriously? Even if others may say they believe her, they tell her he will eventually get bored and go away. I am not so sure. I think he is playing mind games with her and this is just the beginning. I am pretty sure things will start to get worse.

- Ceicei

Yeah I would say she needs to be pro-active. I had a guy bother me all throughout high school: from freshman year in high school until fall of my freshman year in college. Even then he only stopped because I go to school 2200 miles from home. He would ask me out constantly... even when he had a girlfriend... just to bother me. He would be sitting with his girlfriend in the cafeteria and tell me later that he was watching me the whole time he was with her. It was just creepy, and I was convinced he would get bored with it but he never did. He even asked me if he could visit me if he's ever in California. Anyway I guess my point is these mind games can last for years and she shouldn't listen to anyone who tries to say he'll just get bored with it.